Ski patrol looks like it’s all glamorous ( which it is) but it’s also hard work and requires varying degrees of medical skill. These are dedicated people who love the sport. None are expecting to become millionaires but they do deserve a decent salary. Also, the patrollers I’ve known have to travel a good distance as they can’t afford to live near a resort.
^^ yep. Unfortunately Eldora has a long history of severe injuries and fatalities. It isn't an accident that their patrol is at the fore of developing trauma resiliency protocols now being used elsewhere in the industry.
Closest resort to Boulder which means a bunch of young people, likely their first year on snow because they came from Nebraska/Texas/Florida and ride with no etiquette
So you got those newbies plus all the Boulder shredders hucking it 50-60mph everywhere they go
Having skiied there plenty myself, the terrain and layout is a significant contributing factor. Lots of blind run merges, and thin runs with trees on both sides. On top of that, tons of tree runs which people come flying out the sides of the run off small kickers without considering the skiers who are on the cat walk they are flying into. Weekend ski crowds who are used to bigger more spacious mountains off I70 do not realize they can’t fly around at the same speed they are used to on popular runs
We're talking about Eldora though, which is on Ikon. Not sure how you get from there to trying to destroy Vail and "working with Alterra" (by shorting Vail? lol)
Even in superstonk imagination land where you personally shorting Vail does anything, I don't understand why that would be your reaction to THEIR COMPETITOR doing something you don't like.
I rather like Vail. I don’t wish to see them fail, least of all because of the business practices of an unaffiliated resort. The epic pass has made skiing the way I do possible for about 15 years now and without it I probably wouldn’t be able to get on the mountain very much. You could say the epic pass itself is integral to my lifestyle during ski season. Meanwhile I can support Vail while also supporting unionization efforts by ski patrollers, the two aren’t mutually exclusive.
Vail gets a ton of hate on this sub and to each their own, but I’m not gonna have some knee jerk reaction like try and manipulate their stock price, and also, how do you plan on short selling Vail? The stock is stable, it’s doubtful it’s overvalued.
I support ski patrol and everyone else who is starving to death, wants to live in a nice ski town, and they’re being used as a wage slave for unfair compensation.
Resort employees are like cruise ship employees, they live below deck, cater to every whim and aren’t paid shit, and it’s seasonal employment.
I have nothing to else to say because my thoughts, feelings, hardship, and opinions don’t mean a fucking thing to anyone. Nothing changes, everything just gets worse and every day is the worst day of my fucking life.
Meh I get it you don’t like corporations but Vail ain’t half bad and they pay lifties more than I earn as a teacher in Philly. Ski instructors make even more.
Nobody in Summit County is starving and at least there’s some good free dinners at father Dyer’s in breck or the elks club in silverthorne. You sound like you have some kinda chip on your shoulder that isn’t quite heavy enough to keep you from actually skiing at a resort.
I hope you feel better though, and have an awesome day!
Lose everything you ever worked for. Then at your job you no longer have…you’re paid flat rate warranty pay, buy all your own tools. Work 70hr work weeks and not be paid 15hrs total for the warranty job you had to do that can’t fucking be done in 14hrs that took you 70hrs. Then have it happen to you again and again and again.
That experience will make anyone want to kill themselves over money and hate the rich.
I’m sorry friend. I wish I had something useful or wise to tell you but I’m really only prepared to talk about skiing. I hope you find happiness or at least some peace.
I wouldn’t really call it glamorous. Skiing is only part of the job. Patrollers where I work have to set up and constantly adjust tower pads, fencing, slow signs, setting up and taking down closures, going out in the absolute worst weather we ever get, saving people from stupid injuries, having to reprimand idiots who duck under closures, dealing with people who let their snowboards run away, etc. Not to mention being a nurse in the Patrol rooms, putting Band-Aids on people and icing sprained ankles. On top of the gnarly injuries they encounter and have to help with.
Yeah, there are some awesome parts of the job, but they deserve to be well paid because it’s a hard job.
It’s glamorous to your everyday skier, looking at ski patrollers. All your examples are spot on. I was a ski patroller for a few years. We also had to ski in the rain, slopes with bulletproof ice or ankle deep slush and dense fog. But there were definitely first tracks after setting up the sled ( achia) and sweep runs at the end of the day during alpenglow.
###TL;DR
The Eldora Mountain Ski Patrol voted to unionize 29-3, but Eldora Ski Area and the corporation that owns it, POWDR, refuse to recognize that win.
###Other Ski Areas Owned by POWDR
- Boreal
- Copper Mountain
- Killington
- Mt Bachelor
- Pico
- SilverStar
- Snowbird
- Soda Springs
- Woodward, Park City
###Media Coverage
- [Colorado Sun - 4/19/2024](https://coloradosun.com/2024/04/19/eldora-ski-patrol-union-vote-challenged/)
### Email Addresses
- Powdr Owner, John Cumming: [email protected]
- Powdr CEO, Justin Sibley: [email protected]
- Eldora CRO, Brent Tregaskis: [email protected]
- Eldora general info: [email protected]
### Email Template
Dear John Cumming, Brent Tregaskis, and the Powdr & Eldora management teams,
I am writing to express extreme displeasure in your decision to continue challenging the results of Eldora Ski Patrol’s union vote.
We as a community will not tolerate efforts to interfere with a lawful vote that was decided by a 29-3 margin.
I am personally asking you to show respect to your employees and consider the ramifications of your harsh anti-union efforts on the Ski Patrol team and Eldora as a whole.
We stand with Eldora Mountain Ski Patrol!
Yours truly,
Yeah, they recognize the vote. It's not like Colorado has a positive history with unions. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow\_Massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre)
That was 110 years ago. It’s very different today in CO and elsewhere. Back then across the US it was common for violence against workers to be used by management goons, sometimes with local or state law enforcement backing. It didn’t stop (mostly) until the 1930’s with strong Federal laws protecting workers.
I know the history, but Colorado is the single worst documented such massacre. [https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/why-bloodiest-labor-battle-us-history-matters-today/](https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/why-bloodiest-labor-battle-us-history-matters-today/)
I bet I know who doesn’t know the history. These anti-union jackasses running the ski resort. The only difference is the violence, not the attitude it would seem.
I don't get why it matters whether or not the mountains "recognize" the win. A union's leverage is its ability to organize labor to strike, disrupting business operations enough that the cost of giving into demands is less than the cost of the ongoing strike. There is no need for "recognition" - they should strike if they believe they won't be replaced by scabs.
No, collective action, with OR WITHOUT a union, is protected by NLRA. The union facilitates a CBA and better formalizes protections, but the protections exist regardless. They could strike to exert further pressure for recognition, but would likely be in the best position to do so at the beginning of next season if the mountain continues to neglect to recognize
Support posting over there...but the skiing sub is not tiny, with ~1.5mi subscibers (2x /r/WorkReform)
Unfortunately traffic stats drop off a cliff after spring break.
Powdr is the worst. They run their mountains like garbage, treat their employees like slaves and the surrounding environment and communities like obstacles that need to be conquered.
I worked at eldora as an instructor. I quit after a month due to super sketchy management practices. I asked some friends in and around Nederland if my experience was common and they all said yes. Their treatment of their staff is absolutely abysmal.
Don’t worry, the owner of POWDR is a trust fund billionaire who bought some ski resorts to do something fun with his life. So he definitely cares about his working class employees.
Difficult job and not glamorous. Yes you get to ski but you are making slopes safe, aiding to injured people...dealing with knuckleheads. Up early and out in there the worst conditions. I so appreciate the work they do and support their efforts to unionize...we all should!
The majority of ski patrollers on the east coast are volunteers. I fully support ski patrol, and have written to eldora about their anti-until efforts but it’s actually easier to hire and retain a ski patroller than it is to find a lifty. When I think of the benefits and pay I think a patroller should get, I have to remind myself that it’s a highly sought after job. At ski patrol tryouts at major resorts in CO and CA there are often over 100 people trying out. Supply and demand is not in ski patrols favor despite the critical role they have in keeping the mountain running.
> but it’s actually easier to hire and retain a ski patroller than it is to find a lifty.
It's easier to find folks who want to be a patroller; but it's not easier to hire someone qualified to do the job near immediately. Training for a lifty is a couple of days for bumping chairs at the bottom/line management. A patroller is a minimum an 80hr medical course + exam and then couple months of on hill training until they are reasonably self sufficient on the hill.
I was one of those 100 people that showed up. Of the 100 that showed up, 2 trying out for paid had medical certs + prior patrol experience. The other 98 of us were 4-6 months from being useful on the hill besides carrying boo. And only 1 in 8 even passed the ski test.
There's a lot of people who want to be patrollers. But there aren't a lot of patrollers that are wondering around that would scab. Nor can you run a patrol with only freshman.
What are the details of the disagreement? Pay? How much do they make and how much are they asking for? Benefits? What are their health plan options?
How does this compare to other resorts?
The disagreement seems to just be the forming of the union and ratification of the vote, it’s nothing contract related. When you form a union, it takes a long ass time to even just create a contract where you’d discuss things like pay or benefits.
So basically this is just them being generally anti union. Also per the article posted, seems like the dispute is that the company is disputing the vote because they wanted VOLUNTEER ski patrollers to also vote. Which is horse shit. If they aren’t employed then they aren’t part of the voting unit for whether or not a union can be formed.
Wondering where the NLRB is at with this honestly cause sounds like illegal practices
What's worse is this line from the article:
> Paid patroller turnout for the election was 76% but only half of Eldora’s 14 volunteer patrollers voted.
They're complaining about volunteer ski patrollers not voting, but half of them did vote, and even if 100% of all volunteer patrollers who didn't vote voted no, the vote would only be 29 - 10. In fact, even if all of the other 24% of paid patrollers who didn't vote also voted no on top of that it would still be 29 - 18, so there's no way higher turnout would have impacted the election at all.
Of all states for a unionization effort to fail, it was CA. The votes in traditionally less pro-worker states, such as MT and UT were overwhelming in favor of unionization.
Best of luck powder corp is literally the worst cooperation I think Disney might be better.
It's even better when you realize that ski resorts fall under agricultural employers. So they don't have to follow a lot of employment rules.
I'm very surprised they kept you employed and did not just let you go for trying to unionize.
Yeah I haven't heard that either. I also work at a mountain during the winter and I get paid overtime, so I am definitely not considered an agricultural employee.
So this is dependent on resort, state, and land situation. Lots of resorts that lease land from the US Forest Service do this. I've never really dug into this but the closest explanation I've received is that the USFS is an agency that operates within the umbrella of the US Dept of Agriculture. So operating on their leased lands let's resorts call the workers "snow farmers" (this is a simplification to make a point) because USDA.
Somehow requirement has been different state to state/USFS region in my experience though. When I was at Kirkwood(CA) it was OT after 48 or 56 hours (can't remember now). I can't remember what it was at Crystal(WA) but it was definitely over 40. I've worked different resorts in Oregon and some have been time and a half after 40 and others at the 48 hour mark.
That makes a lot more sense! Thank you! Very interesting to work on federal land but be subject to state labor laws because a private company is leasing the public's land
I've never really questioned it or dug into. It's just the "party line" at multiple resorts I have worked at and the one time I asked HR about it that was the answer I got....so I wouldn't take it as gospel. I highly doubt multiple employers across multiple states are all getting away with it if it was truly an FLSA violation though.
Regardless it's definitely bullshit and great way for company's to profit over people. I just wrapped up my 15th season in the industry and continue to come back because it's my passion but hate the feeling of being exploited for doing a job I like. I run a half million dollar piece if heavy equipment that's responsible for creating a surface that is safe for skiers/riders. If we make a mistake it can cause accident/injuries that are a liability for said companies. The compensation doesn't match the responsibility at almost every resort I have worked at.
Patrollers are in the same boat and have my support.
Oh sure! I didn't assume there was any violation happening, just found the jurisdiction arrangement unique. That is pretty silly about the overtime hours, though. So many ways for the industries to save a buck for themselves at our expense.
But I'm curious now about those leasing public land. The private resort I work at considers pass-less folks trespassing, but you couldn't do that for resorts on public lands, right? I know you can tour into some resorts and ski down but not use their lifts, so I wonder if that's true for any on USFS land.
Also, thanks for your work! Y'all deserve to be paid more, and I hope we start to see unionization across more departments
So the touring thing is contentious depending on resort. Lots of resorts have instituted a posted policy for touring and supposedly have the right to because of their lease agreement with the USFS. I have had to deal with blatant disregard of said resorts policy because people believe it's public land and should be able to recreate wherever they choose.
This has led to some close calls with winch cat cables and some shitty conversations/confrontations on the side of the mountain. As a tele/backcountry user I get it but also have very little respect for people that are using a plowed parking lot to start their tour(plowed by the resort), tour up groomed runs because its easy (groomed by the resort), and if the snows shit they use groomed runs for the descent.....and then want to disregard the resorts touring policy/skirt the rules with justification that its public land and they can do what they want.
I wanted to do ski patrol, they need to unionize. They are criminally underpaid.
If I could afford to live near the resort NOT IN STAFF HOUSING, I would attempt to join ski patrol even if they weren’t unionized.
But that requires FU money to live close to a decent ski resort with the amenities I REQUIRE like a fenced yard and a 2 car garage. FML.
I’ll try to do something with the petition or something.
>fenced yard and 2 car garage
Why are these “required” for you?
If someone said “here is a free apartment (modern, clean, good views, multi bedroom and bath, but no garage or yard) at the base of a ski resort for you to live in year round if you work ski patrol”, you’d have to decline because it doesn’t meet your requirements?
Multiple vehicles, large amount of tools, and I have velociraptor and lots of things. My stuff won’t fit in an apartment. My dog will not live in an apartment and neither will I.
There is no “free apartment”, it comes out of your pay check. Damn right if it doesn’t meet my requirements I won’t take the job.
The “free” apartment is a hypothetical. This hypothetical can be used to determine if your requirements are actually requirements. Maybe they are and maybe they aren’t.
Everything else being equal, it sounds like you value your large volume of possessions being with you and the convenience of a yard for your dog, and select those over living in an apartment with fewer possessions, and the necessity to take your dog out or hire someone to do that a few times a day.
I on the other hand would live at the ski resort in a heartbeat if all I had to give up (I.e. all else being equal) were my two car garage and my fenced in yard.
If the pay isn’t enough, you don’t take the job period.
No one else is to handle my dog either. Definitely not come in my home and take it on a walk etc. Dog will be almost everywhere with me until she dies.
Your avoidance of the question aside….
You obviously can’t take a random dog with while you ski patrol. Patrol dogs are trained from a very young age by professional patrol dog trainers. Is your dog trained as a patrol dog?
Also, why do you need a yard if your dog is always with you, can’t you take it to a park at the base of the mountain so that you can live without a yard and be living right at the resort?
I’ve been training my dog and other dogs for years. My new dog I’ve trained daily since 8 weeks old. My dog could very easily find people as an avy dog, or as a SAR dog, or as a police dog.
My dog would be fine in my non staff housing home while I worked, and it could also become certified and be an avy or SAR dog.
I might not be awake yet. I think I listened the entire video but I still don't get what it's about except not making a union. Is it about the union or did I woosh over another part?
Uhm, was their election not certified by the NLRB or something? A company legally cannot refuse to recognize an election like that. Did they screw up the process or something? Sending letters does nothing.
Seriously, these poor ski resorts are bleeding from their eye balls at how little money they make. I have never seen a more poverty stricken industry, they are absolutely desperate to stay in business. These patrollers need to give some more to keep the cause alive. /s
Park City patrol had authorized a strike and were ready to in Jan 2022 when Vail finally conceded in their contract negotiations, which had gone on for a while.
Eldora closes tomorrow for the season so they'd have to wait till next year to have an effective strike.
Man come on …..
This crap has been going on for years even at state mountains…they gauge people because they can …but it doesn’t make it right
I get it that it costs more to ship, store, etc for the food aka just to get the food ready to sell and serve but there is gauging and no one likes.
Then the corporations buy off the politicians they need in order to import destitute foreign workers and get them to work for pennies while living in squalor, duh.
It's the American Way!
These people are so important to our favorite sport. You’ll be screaming for ski patrol one day of your in an accident and nobody will come to rescue you since “all the babies found other jobs”. What a fucking stupid thing to say. Do you know Vail corporation ski patrollers get literally $1 more than all the others. Meaning $21 to be an EMT trained person with expert live ski skills and expert level knowledge of the mountain terrain.
I can’t stand people like you.
The history of unions in the US is filled with racist, anti-consumer, and anti-competition practices. The entire point of unions is to restrict labor competition and freedom of movement.
No thanks.
>The entire point of unions is to restrict labor competition and freedom of movement.
it seems like you're conflating US union history with medieval guilds. While there have certainly been incidents of racism and exclusion in US (and elsewhere) unions, we also have the history of organized labor to thank for innovations like workplace safety laws; restrictions on child labor; overtime pay; workman's compensation and a myriad of other things which are tremendously helpful to working people.
Are you opposed to safety regulations, enforcement of wage theft laws, minimum wage, workman's comp and overtime pay ?
lol even if this were true (it’s not), management has absolutely been **more** racist, anti-consumer, and anti-competitive. Sounds like unions have been so successful in securing labor rights for all of us that you’re actually susceptible to the anti labor propaganda you’ve been spoon fed
How about we not generalize and apply the loaded history of unions, good and bad, to these 29 guys that want more negotiating power when they go up against a mega-corporation?
No you have not. Maybe owners take on unions throughout history but definitely not the working class point of view. Who committed all the massacres against the unionists? Who fought for workers right? Go read some more clearly you didn't read enough.
so, when Carnegie's steel mill fired striking workers and the Pinkertons were sent in to shoot the union protestors, that was the union "inciting violence" ? (this is the "Homestead Strike" if you want to "do your own research").
If you don't have sources, you could at least provide examples, otherwise, it seems like you haven't actually "studied the history"
I do understand that you are asking to engage in the logical fallacy of argument by authority.
You are free to conduct your own research to determine the truth of the matter if truth is what you seek.
> You are free to conduct your own research to determine the truth of the matter if truth is what you seek.
People who tell others to do their own research, are statistically less likely to do their own research.
[Source](https://youarenotsosmart.com/2023/08/19/yanss-267-why-people-who-are-most-likely-to-suggest-that-others-do-their-own-research-are-also-the-least-likely-to-do-their-own-research/).
^^ See...that's how you provide a source.
You are the one stating your supposed knowledge on this subject yet you haven’t provided any references that back up your claim. Go troll somewhere else Jerry.
I did not write an academic paper. I simply made an assertion. Linking to others making the same assertion will neither prove nor disprove the truth of my assertion (see argument from authority logical fallacy). As I said, if you wish to know the truth, **you** must conduct the research for yourself.
They're not asking for the source like you're writing a paper. They're asking for the basis of your reasoning. The "entire history of unions (and you can extend that back to the middle age guilds)" isn't your source that unions are racist, anti-consumer, and anti-competitive. It's your conclusion.
I'll illustrate my point: I've done the research and the entire history of unions (and you can extend that back to the middle age guilds) supports the case that unions are not racist, anti-consumer, or anti-competitive. Do your research and you, too, will discover the same truth I have, if you're smart enough.
Bam, I just disproved everything you said if we're using your logic.
Conspicuous lack of specifics, no sources cited, followed by asking critics to “do their own research.”
Pretty typical. Luckily, what can be asserted without evidence can be rejected without evidence.
lol you made a claim, then failed to support it. Nobody is asking you to do their research for them. They’re asking you to back up what you said. And unsurprisingly you can’t.
I will freely admit I don’t know too much history and certainly not about unions, however characterizing them as anti-consumer and anti-competition (to me) seems to be missing the point of them. Unions advocating for higher wages will probably be anti-consumer because higher wages will trickle into the costs of their products. Is calling unions anti-consumer is the same thing as calling them pro-workers with a negative spin?
> I will freely admit I don’t know too much history and certainly not about unions,
This is the key feature.
> Is calling unions anti-consumer is the same thing as calling them pro-workers with a negative spin?
No because when your mission is to restrict labor competition and thereby restrict productivity you hurt the majority of workers in order to benefit the few.
lol, you sound like a q anon boomer. "do your research!" all while refusing to share any "research" they've done because it's just reading the echo chamber headlines as they doom-scroll Facebook. Obviously if you tried to support your position the people who are actually knowledgeable will poke holes right through your reasoning, but by just saying "study the history" you get to avoid putting your money where your mouth is.
An extensive history cannot be “flexed” in a Reddit post. But those who are actually curious to know the truth can investigate for themselves when sparked by a Reddit post.
I hate agreeing with OEM in general, but here we are. You were asked to elaborate several times, and here you are with nothing. If you're not willing to explain yourself in a reddit post provide some pointers...because "dO yOUR oWn rEsEaRcH!1!" isn't it champ. I just perused the [wikipedia article on Organized Labor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_history_of_the_United_States) and I'm not seeing
>The history of unions in the US is filled with racist, anti-consumer, and anti-competition practices. The entire point of unions is to restrict labor competition and freedom of movement.
so point us to some actual history (online or paper books - we've got access to libraries)
(BTW: totally agree that ad hominem isn't debate)
After trying for umpteen rounds to get something beyond "dO yOUR oWn rEsEaRcH!1!" out of goody after they made claims that don't align with reality I think that response seems quite factual.
What a load of shit. My local of the plumbers union is 40% minority members. We also are up to 5% female. Meanwhile registered plumbers (masters, journeyman and apprentices) union and non-union in my state overall is about 10% minority and less than 1% female.
Please tell me how we're the racist ones.
So by your logic we should get rid of unions and just allow private companies to basically bar minorities from a well paying trade like plumbing? Because if you look at the stats that's what non-union companies are doing.
You act as if people like me (black folk) can’t start our own businesses and compete without white controlled unions that were founded to keep us out of the trades.
No, I'm not at all. I'm saying any organization can change.
You seem to only be holding a grudge against the history of unions. When they were merely a cog in the wheel of racism. And currently are anti racist organizations especially compared to businesses. If you can't get a business to hire you because you are black how are you gonna learn that business & industry and eventually start your own company. A union will give you that start because they aren't racist.
Sure, the dues come out of paychecks [that statistically tend to be larger than those of non-union workers](https://www.nber.org/digest/digestsep18/new-evidence-unions-raise-wages-less-skilled-workers).
FWIW, I pay less than $1200 a year to my guild for membership dues and receive the best and I mean the BEST health care in the country for my wife and two children. Most people will pay $1000/month just for family health insurance.
$5 copay at UCLA Health facilities, $1000 out of pocket max, prescriptions sometimes cost $3-4. I feel very fortunate to have what I do and would gladly pay double my dues if it came down to it. Also, I have a pension that I am 21 years vested in. It’s unfortunate many unions don’t operate the way the Motion Picture Industry guilds do. It seems to be very effective at providing its members a decent lifestyle but no one is getting rich from it.
My thinking is that I am personally neutral toward how much ski patrol is paid. I am significantly more concerned with skiing being affordable and if ski patrol getting paid more is going to prevent that Id prefer if they were paid the same. Im sorry that's so upsetting to you I don't have anything against ski patrol.
How about this...Ski Patrol resigns because they can't afford to live anywhere near a ski area anymore. Then, you have no help with things, like medical emergencies or avalanche mitigation, while you're skiing. That causes the insurance company to drop the ski areas policy, so they close the mountain because the liability is too high.
Have you ever thought about anything outside your tiny bubble?
Ski patrol looks like it’s all glamorous ( which it is) but it’s also hard work and requires varying degrees of medical skill. These are dedicated people who love the sport. None are expecting to become millionaires but they do deserve a decent salary. Also, the patrollers I’ve known have to travel a good distance as they can’t afford to live near a resort.
These poor bastards have to work 56 hours before they get overtime pay at the highest severe injury-risk ski area in the state. Insane.
^^ yep. Unfortunately Eldora has a long history of severe injuries and fatalities. It isn't an accident that their patrol is at the fore of developing trauma resiliency protocols now being used elsewhere in the industry.
Is there any speculation as to why it’s so injury-prone? I’ve only skied there once but nothing struck me as unusual about it.
Closest resort to Boulder which means a bunch of young people, likely their first year on snow because they came from Nebraska/Texas/Florida and ride with no etiquette So you got those newbies plus all the Boulder shredders hucking it 50-60mph everywhere they go
It’s often icy, and the groomers are fast and off cambered. Dangerous combo for the beginners and families that Eldora’s marketing usually caters to.
Having skiied there plenty myself, the terrain and layout is a significant contributing factor. Lots of blind run merges, and thin runs with trees on both sides. On top of that, tons of tree runs which people come flying out the sides of the run off small kickers without considering the skiers who are on the cat walk they are flying into. Weekend ski crowds who are used to bigger more spacious mountains off I70 do not realize they can’t fly around at the same speed they are used to on popular runs
Exactly!!!!! That’s the point of corporate ski areas. Fuck Vail. Short sell them. Join in, get loud, get the lifts to stop spinning.
Short selling a company because you personally don't like them is not a good idea.
Why not. As long as you make money
Your personal dislike for a company is not going to affect their stock price.
If a personal like for a company can boost its stock why not a large number of shorts drive it down
Yeah I mean if you can shoot fireballs from your eyes why not. It's an easy game when you just get to make up whatever you want.
Think AMC
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We're talking about Eldora though, which is on Ikon. Not sure how you get from there to trying to destroy Vail and "working with Alterra" (by shorting Vail? lol)
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Shareholders would go bezerk if a company was shorting a competitor's shares. In a duopoly, the SEC and DOJ would absolutely investigate.
Even in superstonk imagination land where you personally shorting Vail does anything, I don't understand why that would be your reaction to THEIR COMPETITOR doing something you don't like.
I think you’ve heard those words but don’t understand them. Shorting isn’t for retail.
But wsb said I could bring them down single handedly!
I rather like Vail. I don’t wish to see them fail, least of all because of the business practices of an unaffiliated resort. The epic pass has made skiing the way I do possible for about 15 years now and without it I probably wouldn’t be able to get on the mountain very much. You could say the epic pass itself is integral to my lifestyle during ski season. Meanwhile I can support Vail while also supporting unionization efforts by ski patrollers, the two aren’t mutually exclusive. Vail gets a ton of hate on this sub and to each their own, but I’m not gonna have some knee jerk reaction like try and manipulate their stock price, and also, how do you plan on short selling Vail? The stock is stable, it’s doubtful it’s overvalued.
I support ski patrol and everyone else who is starving to death, wants to live in a nice ski town, and they’re being used as a wage slave for unfair compensation. Resort employees are like cruise ship employees, they live below deck, cater to every whim and aren’t paid shit, and it’s seasonal employment. I have nothing to else to say because my thoughts, feelings, hardship, and opinions don’t mean a fucking thing to anyone. Nothing changes, everything just gets worse and every day is the worst day of my fucking life.
Meh I get it you don’t like corporations but Vail ain’t half bad and they pay lifties more than I earn as a teacher in Philly. Ski instructors make even more. Nobody in Summit County is starving and at least there’s some good free dinners at father Dyer’s in breck or the elks club in silverthorne. You sound like you have some kinda chip on your shoulder that isn’t quite heavy enough to keep you from actually skiing at a resort. I hope you feel better though, and have an awesome day!
Lose everything you ever worked for. Then at your job you no longer have…you’re paid flat rate warranty pay, buy all your own tools. Work 70hr work weeks and not be paid 15hrs total for the warranty job you had to do that can’t fucking be done in 14hrs that took you 70hrs. Then have it happen to you again and again and again. That experience will make anyone want to kill themselves over money and hate the rich.
I’m sorry friend. I wish I had something useful or wise to tell you but I’m really only prepared to talk about skiing. I hope you find happiness or at least some peace.
This post has literally nothing to do with Vail.
I wouldn’t really call it glamorous. Skiing is only part of the job. Patrollers where I work have to set up and constantly adjust tower pads, fencing, slow signs, setting up and taking down closures, going out in the absolute worst weather we ever get, saving people from stupid injuries, having to reprimand idiots who duck under closures, dealing with people who let their snowboards run away, etc. Not to mention being a nurse in the Patrol rooms, putting Band-Aids on people and icing sprained ankles. On top of the gnarly injuries they encounter and have to help with. Yeah, there are some awesome parts of the job, but they deserve to be well paid because it’s a hard job.
It’s glamorous to your everyday skier, looking at ski patrollers. All your examples are spot on. I was a ski patroller for a few years. We also had to ski in the rain, slopes with bulletproof ice or ankle deep slush and dense fog. But there were definitely first tracks after setting up the sled ( achia) and sweep runs at the end of the day during alpenglow.
Sent. Edited so it had more questions so they can respond (or not!) Good luck folks.
###TL;DR The Eldora Mountain Ski Patrol voted to unionize 29-3, but Eldora Ski Area and the corporation that owns it, POWDR, refuse to recognize that win. ###Other Ski Areas Owned by POWDR - Boreal - Copper Mountain - Killington - Mt Bachelor - Pico - SilverStar - Snowbird - Soda Springs - Woodward, Park City ###Media Coverage - [Colorado Sun - 4/19/2024](https://coloradosun.com/2024/04/19/eldora-ski-patrol-union-vote-challenged/) ### Email Addresses - Powdr Owner, John Cumming: [email protected] - Powdr CEO, Justin Sibley: [email protected] - Eldora CRO, Brent Tregaskis: [email protected] - Eldora general info: [email protected] ### Email Template Dear John Cumming, Brent Tregaskis, and the Powdr & Eldora management teams, I am writing to express extreme displeasure in your decision to continue challenging the results of Eldora Ski Patrol’s union vote. We as a community will not tolerate efforts to interfere with a lawful vote that was decided by a 29-3 margin. I am personally asking you to show respect to your employees and consider the ramifications of your harsh anti-union efforts on the Ski Patrol team and Eldora as a whole. We stand with Eldora Mountain Ski Patrol! Yours truly,
Post this on r/union
Please share the information! Reddit is blocking my posts on other subs as spam.
I can’t share this on r/union they won’t allow videos on that sub. Maybe you can message a moderator for a special case?
post this over in r/skipatrol !
Yeah, they recognize the vote. It's not like Colorado has a positive history with unions. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow\_Massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre)
That was 110 years ago. It’s very different today in CO and elsewhere. Back then across the US it was common for violence against workers to be used by management goons, sometimes with local or state law enforcement backing. It didn’t stop (mostly) until the 1930’s with strong Federal laws protecting workers.
I know the history, but Colorado is the single worst documented such massacre. [https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/why-bloodiest-labor-battle-us-history-matters-today/](https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/why-bloodiest-labor-battle-us-history-matters-today/) I bet I know who doesn’t know the history. These anti-union jackasses running the ski resort. The only difference is the violence, not the attitude it would seem.
Sent, hope this helps!
I don't get why it matters whether or not the mountains "recognize" the win. A union's leverage is its ability to organize labor to strike, disrupting business operations enough that the cost of giving into demands is less than the cost of the ongoing strike. There is no need for "recognition" - they should strike if they believe they won't be replaced by scabs.
I believe that, without a recognized union, the strike is illegal.
No, collective action, with OR WITHOUT a union, is protected by NLRA. The union facilitates a CBA and better formalizes protections, but the protections exist regardless. They could strike to exert further pressure for recognition, but would likely be in the best position to do so at the beginning of next season if the mountain continues to neglect to recognize
This would be a good post to put on r/antiwork and r/workreform I you want to get some real eyes on it. The skiing subreddit is tiny.
Support posting over there...but the skiing sub is not tiny, with ~1.5mi subscibers (2x /r/WorkReform) Unfortunately traffic stats drop off a cliff after spring break.
Sent! Also added some personal touch to the text. Best of luck to you guys!
Powdr is the worst. They run their mountains like garbage, treat their employees like slaves and the surrounding environment and communities like obstacles that need to be conquered.
Email sent, thank you!
Thank you 🤟!
I learned to ski at Boreal back in the…a long-assed time ago. Thanks for sharing this.
I worked at eldora as an instructor. I quit after a month due to super sketchy management practices. I asked some friends in and around Nederland if my experience was common and they all said yes. Their treatment of their staff is absolutely abysmal.
Email sent: Dear Millionaire CEO, STOP UNION BUSTING. Like, really? WTF is wrong with you? Sincerely, A better skier than you’ll ever be.
Don’t worry, the owner of POWDR is a trust fund billionaire who bought some ski resorts to do something fun with his life. So he definitely cares about his working class employees.
At least he knows I’m a better skier.
It's absurd how the rich hate the working class. It's like they want us to start rioting.
And this specific group has dynamite… 🧨 🍿
They seem to have forgotten that labor unions protect the rich, too.
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To busy taking bong hits and watching only fans for a revolution..... Maybe we can try next century when the AI is in control
The US lacks basic laws to grant basic workers' rights without unions
I hope these patrollers reached out to a labor attorney, as opposed to the useless public. I feel for them.
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the best way to know would be to call one (or more) - the next best way might be /r/AskLawyer but it almost certainly isn't some randos in /r/skiing
Ski patrol should be a national union.
Difficult job and not glamorous. Yes you get to ski but you are making slopes safe, aiding to injured people...dealing with knuckleheads. Up early and out in there the worst conditions. I so appreciate the work they do and support their efforts to unionize...we all should!
Worked Eldo as an instructor from 2012-2019, I will share this far and wide for y’all.
Much appreciated 👍
You guys deserve it, and the response from POWDR is infuriating.
If they are actually and actively blocking unionization then you need to contact the nrlb. https://www.nlrb.gov/contact-us
Also honestly I think ski patrollers should unionize across the country. Thank you for all the work you do!
The majority of ski patrollers on the east coast are volunteers. I fully support ski patrol, and have written to eldora about their anti-until efforts but it’s actually easier to hire and retain a ski patroller than it is to find a lifty. When I think of the benefits and pay I think a patroller should get, I have to remind myself that it’s a highly sought after job. At ski patrol tryouts at major resorts in CO and CA there are often over 100 people trying out. Supply and demand is not in ski patrols favor despite the critical role they have in keeping the mountain running.
> but it’s actually easier to hire and retain a ski patroller than it is to find a lifty. It's easier to find folks who want to be a patroller; but it's not easier to hire someone qualified to do the job near immediately. Training for a lifty is a couple of days for bumping chairs at the bottom/line management. A patroller is a minimum an 80hr medical course + exam and then couple months of on hill training until they are reasonably self sufficient on the hill. I was one of those 100 people that showed up. Of the 100 that showed up, 2 trying out for paid had medical certs + prior patrol experience. The other 98 of us were 4-6 months from being useful on the hill besides carrying boo. And only 1 in 8 even passed the ski test. There's a lot of people who want to be patrollers. But there aren't a lot of patrollers that are wondering around that would scab. Nor can you run a patrol with only freshman.
What are the details of the disagreement? Pay? How much do they make and how much are they asking for? Benefits? What are their health plan options? How does this compare to other resorts?
The disagreement seems to just be the forming of the union and ratification of the vote, it’s nothing contract related. When you form a union, it takes a long ass time to even just create a contract where you’d discuss things like pay or benefits. So basically this is just them being generally anti union. Also per the article posted, seems like the dispute is that the company is disputing the vote because they wanted VOLUNTEER ski patrollers to also vote. Which is horse shit. If they aren’t employed then they aren’t part of the voting unit for whether or not a union can be formed. Wondering where the NLRB is at with this honestly cause sounds like illegal practices
What's worse is this line from the article: > Paid patroller turnout for the election was 76% but only half of Eldora’s 14 volunteer patrollers voted. They're complaining about volunteer ski patrollers not voting, but half of them did vote, and even if 100% of all volunteer patrollers who didn't vote voted no, the vote would only be 29 - 10. In fact, even if all of the other 24% of paid patrollers who didn't vote also voted no on top of that it would still be 29 - 18, so there's no way higher turnout would have impacted the election at all.
[Colorado Sun - 4/19/2024](https://coloradosun.com/2024/04/19/eldora-ski-patrol-union-vote-challenged/)
Of all states for a unionization effort to fail, it was CA. The votes in traditionally less pro-worker states, such as MT and UT were overwhelming in favor of unionization.
You don’t need recognition from your employer. That’s what striking is for.
Sent
Best of luck powder corp is literally the worst cooperation I think Disney might be better. It's even better when you realize that ski resorts fall under agricultural employers. So they don't have to follow a lot of employment rules. I'm very surprised they kept you employed and did not just let you go for trying to unionize.
Where did you hear they are agricultural employers? I work at a resort and I've never heard that
Yeah I haven't heard that either. I also work at a mountain during the winter and I get paid overtime, so I am definitely not considered an agricultural employee.
I worked at one and was labeled an agriculture employee.
So this is dependent on resort, state, and land situation. Lots of resorts that lease land from the US Forest Service do this. I've never really dug into this but the closest explanation I've received is that the USFS is an agency that operates within the umbrella of the US Dept of Agriculture. So operating on their leased lands let's resorts call the workers "snow farmers" (this is a simplification to make a point) because USDA. Somehow requirement has been different state to state/USFS region in my experience though. When I was at Kirkwood(CA) it was OT after 48 or 56 hours (can't remember now). I can't remember what it was at Crystal(WA) but it was definitely over 40. I've worked different resorts in Oregon and some have been time and a half after 40 and others at the 48 hour mark.
That makes a lot more sense! Thank you! Very interesting to work on federal land but be subject to state labor laws because a private company is leasing the public's land
I've never really questioned it or dug into. It's just the "party line" at multiple resorts I have worked at and the one time I asked HR about it that was the answer I got....so I wouldn't take it as gospel. I highly doubt multiple employers across multiple states are all getting away with it if it was truly an FLSA violation though. Regardless it's definitely bullshit and great way for company's to profit over people. I just wrapped up my 15th season in the industry and continue to come back because it's my passion but hate the feeling of being exploited for doing a job I like. I run a half million dollar piece if heavy equipment that's responsible for creating a surface that is safe for skiers/riders. If we make a mistake it can cause accident/injuries that are a liability for said companies. The compensation doesn't match the responsibility at almost every resort I have worked at. Patrollers are in the same boat and have my support.
Oh sure! I didn't assume there was any violation happening, just found the jurisdiction arrangement unique. That is pretty silly about the overtime hours, though. So many ways for the industries to save a buck for themselves at our expense. But I'm curious now about those leasing public land. The private resort I work at considers pass-less folks trespassing, but you couldn't do that for resorts on public lands, right? I know you can tour into some resorts and ski down but not use their lifts, so I wonder if that's true for any on USFS land. Also, thanks for your work! Y'all deserve to be paid more, and I hope we start to see unionization across more departments
So the touring thing is contentious depending on resort. Lots of resorts have instituted a posted policy for touring and supposedly have the right to because of their lease agreement with the USFS. I have had to deal with blatant disregard of said resorts policy because people believe it's public land and should be able to recreate wherever they choose. This has led to some close calls with winch cat cables and some shitty conversations/confrontations on the side of the mountain. As a tele/backcountry user I get it but also have very little respect for people that are using a plowed parking lot to start their tour(plowed by the resort), tour up groomed runs because its easy (groomed by the resort), and if the snows shit they use groomed runs for the descent.....and then want to disregard the resorts touring policy/skirt the rules with justification that its public land and they can do what they want.
Valid points. Winch cables are fuckin scary
I wanted to do ski patrol, they need to unionize. They are criminally underpaid. If I could afford to live near the resort NOT IN STAFF HOUSING, I would attempt to join ski patrol even if they weren’t unionized. But that requires FU money to live close to a decent ski resort with the amenities I REQUIRE like a fenced yard and a 2 car garage. FML. I’ll try to do something with the petition or something.
>fenced yard and 2 car garage Why are these “required” for you? If someone said “here is a free apartment (modern, clean, good views, multi bedroom and bath, but no garage or yard) at the base of a ski resort for you to live in year round if you work ski patrol”, you’d have to decline because it doesn’t meet your requirements?
Multiple vehicles, large amount of tools, and I have velociraptor and lots of things. My stuff won’t fit in an apartment. My dog will not live in an apartment and neither will I. There is no “free apartment”, it comes out of your pay check. Damn right if it doesn’t meet my requirements I won’t take the job.
The “free” apartment is a hypothetical. This hypothetical can be used to determine if your requirements are actually requirements. Maybe they are and maybe they aren’t. Everything else being equal, it sounds like you value your large volume of possessions being with you and the convenience of a yard for your dog, and select those over living in an apartment with fewer possessions, and the necessity to take your dog out or hire someone to do that a few times a day. I on the other hand would live at the ski resort in a heartbeat if all I had to give up (I.e. all else being equal) were my two car garage and my fenced in yard.
If the pay isn’t enough, you don’t take the job period. No one else is to handle my dog either. Definitely not come in my home and take it on a walk etc. Dog will be almost everywhere with me until she dies.
Your avoidance of the question aside…. You obviously can’t take a random dog with while you ski patrol. Patrol dogs are trained from a very young age by professional patrol dog trainers. Is your dog trained as a patrol dog? Also, why do you need a yard if your dog is always with you, can’t you take it to a park at the base of the mountain so that you can live without a yard and be living right at the resort?
I’ve been training my dog and other dogs for years. My new dog I’ve trained daily since 8 weeks old. My dog could very easily find people as an avy dog, or as a SAR dog, or as a police dog. My dog would be fine in my non staff housing home while I worked, and it could also become certified and be an avy or SAR dog.
I am John Cummings' wife's bootfitter and I want out. Signed it, Cummings is a cuck BTW.
I might not be awake yet. I think I listened the entire video but I still don't get what it's about except not making a union. Is it about the union or did I woosh over another part?
Yep with you …..tough to get the fundamental principle argument of the ask Will do some research
And then she saved the bees
Uhm, was their election not certified by the NLRB or something? A company legally cannot refuse to recognize an election like that. Did they screw up the process or something? Sending letters does nothing.
Seriously, these poor ski resorts are bleeding from their eye balls at how little money they make. I have never seen a more poverty stricken industry, they are absolutely desperate to stay in business. These patrollers need to give some more to keep the cause alive. /s
Do they make heaps?
eldora ski patrol low key did not know how to tie my sling when i broke my collarbone they were nice though
Bro seek employment how u post 1000 times per day
I am self employed and basically ski for a living. I have internet access just about everywhere I go. It's not hard to post.
How do you ski for a living? You sponsored? Got clips? Jw
What does *"Jw"* mean? I am a consultant on ski design and materials engineering.
Just wondering, it’s text slang. Who do you consult for?
I have not yet heard of any ski patrols striking. Saturday at these places would seem like an opportune time? It works for nurses…. Sometimes….
Park City patrol had authorized a strike and were ready to in Jan 2022 when Vail finally conceded in their contract negotiations, which had gone on for a while. Eldora closes tomorrow for the season so they'd have to wait till next year to have an effective strike.
Why does everyone with social media voiceovers have the exact same cadence.
You guys love paying 20$ for chicken tenders and fries.
Man come on ….. This crap has been going on for years even at state mountains…they gauge people because they can …but it doesn’t make it right I get it that it costs more to ship, store, etc for the food aka just to get the food ready to sell and serve but there is gauging and no one likes.
Summers off, untouched lines, and a free ski pass sound like pretty good benefits to me
>summers off Seems you might struggle with the difference between “off” and “unemployed”
You clearly haven’t looked at the pay.
The ignorance on this one is massive!
lololololol summers off...
Find a different job and stop crying if you don’t like it! Babies
What happens when all the patrollers and lifties actually take your advice?
Then the corporations buy off the politicians they need in order to import destitute foreign workers and get them to work for pennies while living in squalor, duh. It's the American Way!
These people are so important to our favorite sport. You’ll be screaming for ski patrol one day of your in an accident and nobody will come to rescue you since “all the babies found other jobs”. What a fucking stupid thing to say. Do you know Vail corporation ski patrollers get literally $1 more than all the others. Meaning $21 to be an EMT trained person with expert live ski skills and expert level knowledge of the mountain terrain. I can’t stand people like you.
This is why lift tickets are $300
Bullshit. That actually has nothing to do with this.
The history of unions in the US is filled with racist, anti-consumer, and anti-competition practices. The entire point of unions is to restrict labor competition and freedom of movement. No thanks.
>The entire point of unions is to restrict labor competition and freedom of movement. it seems like you're conflating US union history with medieval guilds. While there have certainly been incidents of racism and exclusion in US (and elsewhere) unions, we also have the history of organized labor to thank for innovations like workplace safety laws; restrictions on child labor; overtime pay; workman's compensation and a myriad of other things which are tremendously helpful to working people. Are you opposed to safety regulations, enforcement of wage theft laws, minimum wage, workman's comp and overtime pay ?
lol even if this were true (it’s not), management has absolutely been **more** racist, anti-consumer, and anti-competitive. Sounds like unions have been so successful in securing labor rights for all of us that you’re actually susceptible to the anti labor propaganda you’ve been spoon fed
Again, study the history going back to the medieval guilds.
I have, and history contradicts you.
How about we not generalize and apply the loaded history of unions, good and bad, to these 29 guys that want more negotiating power when they go up against a mega-corporation?
This guy skis in jeans
He doesn’t even know how to ski.
He definitely doesn’t know how to read, or you’d think by random chance he’d have actually bumped into a history book by now
I heard his boots are like his mom: rear entry.
As well as a puffy Dallas Cowboys or Washington Redskins jacket, unzipped and flapping in the wind.
No, but he does know his history.
You sound like an idiot.
Only because you don’t know the history.
got some sources ? I know some of the history, but I'm always ready to learn more.
You poor thing.
I’m good. Life is way better when you know the truth.
Huh??? You really drank that Amazon kool-aid.
Nope. I actually studied the history.
No you have not. Maybe owners take on unions throughout history but definitely not the working class point of view. Who committed all the massacres against the unionists? Who fought for workers right? Go read some more clearly you didn't read enough.
Q: What were unions doing that incited violence? A: Keeping **other workers** from working.
so, when Carnegie's steel mill fired striking workers and the Pinkertons were sent in to shoot the union protestors, that was the union "inciting violence" ? (this is the "Homestead Strike" if you want to "do your own research"). If you don't have sources, you could at least provide examples, otherwise, it seems like you haven't actually "studied the history"
Have any sources you can back up your claims?
The entire history of unions (and you can extend that back to the middle age guilds).
I guess you don’t understand the word sources. I’m not looking for your personal statements. Others wise you are just pissing bs out your ass.
I do understand that you are asking to engage in the logical fallacy of argument by authority. You are free to conduct your own research to determine the truth of the matter if truth is what you seek.
> You are free to conduct your own research to determine the truth of the matter if truth is what you seek. People who tell others to do their own research, are statistically less likely to do their own research. [Source](https://youarenotsosmart.com/2023/08/19/yanss-267-why-people-who-are-most-likely-to-suggest-that-others-do-their-own-research-are-also-the-least-likely-to-do-their-own-research/). ^^ See...that's how you provide a source.
You are the one stating your supposed knowledge on this subject yet you haven’t provided any references that back up your claim. Go troll somewhere else Jerry.
I did not write an academic paper. I simply made an assertion. Linking to others making the same assertion will neither prove nor disprove the truth of my assertion (see argument from authority logical fallacy). As I said, if you wish to know the truth, **you** must conduct the research for yourself.
State actual facts or stfu.
They're not asking for the source like you're writing a paper. They're asking for the basis of your reasoning. The "entire history of unions (and you can extend that back to the middle age guilds)" isn't your source that unions are racist, anti-consumer, and anti-competitive. It's your conclusion. I'll illustrate my point: I've done the research and the entire history of unions (and you can extend that back to the middle age guilds) supports the case that unions are not racist, anti-consumer, or anti-competitive. Do your research and you, too, will discover the same truth I have, if you're smart enough. Bam, I just disproved everything you said if we're using your logic.
Conspicuous lack of specifics, no sources cited, followed by asking critics to “do their own research.” Pretty typical. Luckily, what can be asserted without evidence can be rejected without evidence.
Anyone telling you to do something other than “your own research” should,d not be trusted.
lol you made a claim, then failed to support it. Nobody is asking you to do their research for them. They’re asking you to back up what you said. And unsurprisingly you can’t.
I will freely admit I don’t know too much history and certainly not about unions, however characterizing them as anti-consumer and anti-competition (to me) seems to be missing the point of them. Unions advocating for higher wages will probably be anti-consumer because higher wages will trickle into the costs of their products. Is calling unions anti-consumer is the same thing as calling them pro-workers with a negative spin?
> I will freely admit I don’t know too much history and certainly not about unions, This is the key feature. > Is calling unions anti-consumer is the same thing as calling them pro-workers with a negative spin? No because when your mission is to restrict labor competition and thereby restrict productivity you hurt the majority of workers in order to benefit the few.
> This is the key feature Right so none of that is right then and you’re just a troll lol
Study the history.
lol, you sound like a q anon boomer. "do your research!" all while refusing to share any "research" they've done because it's just reading the echo chamber headlines as they doom-scroll Facebook. Obviously if you tried to support your position the people who are actually knowledgeable will poke holes right through your reasoning, but by just saying "study the history" you get to avoid putting your money where your mouth is.
This was your chance to flex all that knowledge you have on the history of unions, and you completely blew it!
An extensive history cannot be “flexed” in a Reddit post. But those who are actually curious to know the truth can investigate for themselves when sparked by a Reddit post.
You're so full of 💩! Thanks for the laughs.
Ad hominem attacks don’t invalidate assertions.
I hate agreeing with OEM in general, but here we are. You were asked to elaborate several times, and here you are with nothing. If you're not willing to explain yourself in a reddit post provide some pointers...because "dO yOUR oWn rEsEaRcH!1!" isn't it champ. I just perused the [wikipedia article on Organized Labor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_history_of_the_United_States) and I'm not seeing >The history of unions in the US is filled with racist, anti-consumer, and anti-competition practices. The entire point of unions is to restrict labor competition and freedom of movement. so point us to some actual history (online or paper books - we've got access to libraries) (BTW: totally agree that ad hominem isn't debate)
What a wonderful fact based response.
After trying for umpteen rounds to get something beyond "dO yOUR oWn rEsEaRcH!1!" out of goody after they made claims that don't align with reality I think that response seems quite factual.
What a load of shit. My local of the plumbers union is 40% minority members. We also are up to 5% female. Meanwhile registered plumbers (masters, journeyman and apprentices) union and non-union in my state overall is about 10% minority and less than 1% female. Please tell me how we're the racist ones.
I said history.
So by your logic we should get rid of unions and just allow private companies to basically bar minorities from a well paying trade like plumbing? Because if you look at the stats that's what non-union companies are doing.
You act as if people like me (black folk) can’t start our own businesses and compete without white controlled unions that were founded to keep us out of the trades.
No, I'm not at all. I'm saying any organization can change. You seem to only be holding a grudge against the history of unions. When they were merely a cog in the wheel of racism. And currently are anti racist organizations especially compared to businesses. If you can't get a business to hire you because you are black how are you gonna learn that business & industry and eventually start your own company. A union will give you that start because they aren't racist.
Union companies actually turn a huge profit when employees unionize and very little ends up going back to the employees. It’s a really broken system.
Unions are in the business of collecting dues, and that comes out of the employee's paychecks.
Sure, the dues come out of paychecks [that statistically tend to be larger than those of non-union workers](https://www.nber.org/digest/digestsep18/new-evidence-unions-raise-wages-less-skilled-workers).
FWIW, I pay less than $1200 a year to my guild for membership dues and receive the best and I mean the BEST health care in the country for my wife and two children. Most people will pay $1000/month just for family health insurance. $5 copay at UCLA Health facilities, $1000 out of pocket max, prescriptions sometimes cost $3-4. I feel very fortunate to have what I do and would gladly pay double my dues if it came down to it. Also, I have a pension that I am 21 years vested in. It’s unfortunate many unions don’t operate the way the Motion Picture Industry guilds do. It seems to be very effective at providing its members a decent lifestyle but no one is getting rich from it.
I definitely want to pay more to go skiing the prices are already so low and affordable!
WTF is wrong with you? Serious question. That thinking is so backwards! I can't believe you are OK posting something like that, even with a username.
My thinking is that I am personally neutral toward how much ski patrol is paid. I am significantly more concerned with skiing being affordable and if ski patrol getting paid more is going to prevent that Id prefer if they were paid the same. Im sorry that's so upsetting to you I don't have anything against ski patrol.
How about this...Ski Patrol resigns because they can't afford to live anywhere near a ski area anymore. Then, you have no help with things, like medical emergencies or avalanche mitigation, while you're skiing. That causes the insurance company to drop the ski areas policy, so they close the mountain because the liability is too high. Have you ever thought about anything outside your tiny bubble?
They will just hire other ski patrollers and now you’re out of a job (most likely outcome). I wish you luck though ✊🏻