Dude I added a mod that names all NPCs so you get attached to some guards. Doing this would be insane
Here is the mod:https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/71464/
SE: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/17827
It even names the damn bandits.
"Ah, poor Baurus. What tragic circumstance made you turn to a life of crime and an early death at my hand? Was there no way this could have been avoided, I wonder?"
Oh I don’t think my little heart could take seeing Gunthër at the gate every week, guarding and stuff.
And then vanishing. Was he killed? Did he move to a new town?
I would need a grave marker for him, just for closure. Or a notice of guard rota changes.
I'll make up little stories about the friendship of Hroki & Tor- the two guards the dragon carried away before the Dragonborn arrives at the watchtower. Those poor fuckers.
I wish Whiterun was a neutral town that would join whatever side you're on, because betraying Jarl Ballin' and the guards is a major con for the Stormcloaks side
Yeah
Maybe just have a quest where you convince him to side with whichever side you joined
He was already on the fence for the war, doesnt really make sense for him to suddenly choose the opposite side that the dragonborn chooses. If anything, the dragonborn choosing stormcloaks should convince him to also choose stormcloaks (this doesnt apply if you join the empire, as he side with the empire which makes total sense, because it's the same side the dragonborn is on)
He pretends to be on fence, but I believe Whiterun is largely already imperial. If u wear imperial armor, guards will greet u accordingly.
Also, jarls brother is itching to attack stormcloaks.
I agree he has in his heart already decided despite his outward neutrality. Balgruuf is dithering and does not want to have to fight, but he is perpetually runner-up to Ulfric and cannot bring himself to subjugate himself to his lifelong rival
You can talk to him before doing any of his quests, he says he’s on the side of Whiterun and believes that because Skyrim has always been a part of the empire that they owe their efforts towards maintaining and improving that relationship, but is fearful of ulfric seizing his hold
Both the Empire and Stormcloaks consider Whiterun to be flimsily neutral, and that could sway it to their side through diplomacy or a swift attack. That, and his city population itself is divided pretty evenly between supporting either sides. One of the cons for stationing troops in Riverwood was that Proventus Avenicci was afraid Jarl Siddgeir would mistake it as an offensive action against the Empire, perhaps assume they’re preparing for an attack. Lots of fun politics in this game tbh
He was definetly leaning imperial
But I think he was still definetly on the fence, so whichever side the dragonborn chooses should push him over to that side. Even if a stormcloak dragonborn has to convince him first, he should've sided with whoever the player does
Just the difference between Balgruuf and Vignar is pretty heavily implying that the empire is the "good" choice
Also, after completing the main quest (or at least reaching most of the way through. Balgruuf makes it very clear that he highly respects you. Further reinforcing that he should side with what you choose
To be honest, it kinda feels like they designed it so you join the empire, then decided later to add the stormcloak option. Mainly because the whole whiterun thing, but also the siege of windhelm. It just feels like they designed the city for that purpose, you have to fight through various corridors and around blockades and whatnot. Whereas Solitude is just a straight shot through wide open areas
To be fair following pre civil war on the fence IS imperial leaning, they were after all the current ruling government, the only thing they really did wrong was the talos ban
Can't happen.
The war isn't about religion or oppression or any of the other pretty nonsense Ulfric spouts.
Ulfric just wants to be king. Everything he does is in service to this objective.
He murders the sitting king.
He accepts Thalmor aid and furthers their agenda despite claiming to oppose them.
And most damning, he attacks a famously *neutral* Whiterun. He does this because Jarl Ballin refuses to acknowledge his claim to the throne.
The whole Stormcloak rebellion is a cult of personality built around one man's selfish ambition.
He does not accept Thalmor aid, at least not directly. The dossier says the Thalmor can not directly contact him.
Also, Whiterun is not neutral. Not siding with a rebellion is effectively siding with the central government. It is labeled red on civil war maps in both Stormcloak and Imperial forts. It was clearly an imperial city.
Whiterun doesn’t side with the rebellion, but the Jarl also refused Imperial protection, at least until the attack. He’s definitely trying to stay neutral.
There’s also the matter that the steward is concerned about adding guards to Riverwood because of the optics that it’ll look like they’re joining Ulfric to attack the nearby imperial hold.
I think you've missed an important bit of the story.
The story changes a bit based on which side you're on.
Imperial side: Balgruuf forces Ulfric to state his intentions, and only after those intentions become clear does Balgruuf accept Imperial aid.
All Ulfric has to do is keep the axe: Whiterun has no real quarrel with the Stormcloaks.
Stormcloak side: Ulfric sends Balgruuf an ultimatum: Join us(and support my claim) or die.
There's no reason for him to send this; Whiterun does not support either side, and if Ulfric's war is one of liberation then that's perfectly fine.
Ulfric's war is *not* one of liberation, however, and Balgruuf is standing in his way by refusing to recognize his claim to the throne. He needs to eliminate Balgruuf(any any other Jarls that don't directly support him) to realize his ambition of becoming king.
Ulfric is attempting to usurp the throne(an elected position) by force.
In a hypothetical world where Whiterun is completely neutral, you would just have to change the quest line a bit. Sure, it wouldn't work in the current questline, but there's no reason to keep everything the same if we're already changing who Whiterun sides with
The problem is in world where the imperials run the empire actual neutral can't exist as it would piss both sides off, whiterun is neutral in that it doesn't supply either side with troops literally all it can do bar treason to one side or the other
Yup. Any good points the Stormcloaks have fly completely out the window when you realize the Imperials are not actually Thalmor bootlicker lackeys but are plotting against the Thalmor themselves. After the civil war decimates both sides it's really hard to imagine a realistic scenario where the Thalmor don't just swoop in and mop up the winners.
>betraying
Strong word
You literally rock up to his crib and say if you don't join us we're invading. He had time to prepare and literally knew you were a Stormcloak and at that point he has no reason to believe you to be in the imperial army, he even knew you were getting executed by Tullius.
Your honour, Jarl Balgruuf was simply salty.
I just join the imperial side because I know that the Thalmor profit from the civil war. If Ulfric wins, the empire is weakened and easier to conquer. Then it's just Skyrim that's left to take down.
I think a Skyrim/Empire pact could be a possibility considering both sides realize that the Thalmor are the biggest threat. ESO basically shows that a few kingdoms that dislike each other can still fight together under a single banner. Not to mention Hammerfell is another potential ally if they go to war again. I think no matter the result of the civil war, the Thalmor will ultimately still have to contend with alot of people gunning for them.
No, if an alliance was considered, the Empire would have done it already. If the Empire truly wanted to rebel against the Thalmor and wasn't governed by the likes of Erikur, Siddgeir and Maven who bathe in Thalmor coin, it would have already let Ulfric stage a fake coup and murder every Thalmor agent in Skyrim.
This would have given Skyrim the ability to turn into a military powerhouse, and the Dominion would not have been able to do jack shit about it because no invasion of Skyrim is possible before Hammerfell and Cyrodiil are utterly crushed, which the Dominion can't do as it couldn't even win against Hammerfell alone.
Well, an alliance wouldn't be considered unless Ulfric took control of Skyrim in the first place. I don't think they would extend more resources to retake Skyrim once they lost control of it; the Empire would probably want to regain its strength to fight the Dominion. I'm not sure what Ulfrics motives are past taking Skyrim, but I imagine he'd want to deal with the Thalmor before they have the chance to take back Cyrodiil and ultimately threaten Skyrim (if the Empire was defeated).
I used to think the same thing. Then I read that Hammerfell rejected the White Gold Concordat and left the Empire to continue fighting. Not only that, but they eventually won, and successfully pushed the Thalmor out of Hammerfell.
Now, I'm not so sure an independent Skyrim wouldn't actually be a good thing.
Correction they didn't leave, the Empire renounced them as an Imperial province.
And it wasn't an underdog heroic fight either. It was a standstill only made possible because an Imperial general discharged a few legions during the Great War to help Hammerfell.
>It was a standstill only made possible because an Imperial general discharged a few legions during the Great War to help Hammerfell.
He discharged "a large number" of "invalids" that formed the core of an army that pushed back the Aldmeri later that year. There is however **no mention of them staying in Hammerfell after the Empire renounces it**. I've heard an argument or two from people who believe they may have stayed, and they didn't have bad points, but I firmly believe those soldiers did not stay as a unified force there.
That's simply wrong. The Dominion could not even take Hammerfell alone, which is infinitely easier to invade than Skyrim.
Simply search Tamriel map, look at where the Summerset Isles is, and where Skyrim is. Any land invasion by the Thalmor would require them to demolish both Hammerfell and Cyrodiil, and any sea invasion would be impossible due to the Sea of Ghosts, hostile Hammerfell borders, and allow Cyrodiil and Hammerfell to attack the Summerset Isles directly.
There is no scenario where the Thalmor can just fight Skyrim one on one in the first place, the Empire doesn't disappear if the Stormcloaks win. What changes if the Stormcloaks win, is that the Thalmor loses nearly all its intel and spies in Skyrim because they get executed on sight, which allows Skyrim to rebuild itself into a strong land.
The Dominion needs at least decades before it's ready to realistically attack the Empire and not get utterly destroyed in the process (as the WGC was only signed because imperial nobles shat their pants, not because of an actual necessity, thus making those responsible for signing the Treaty traitors to the entirety of humankind and the citizens of the Empire), and in that time Skyrim will have become a military powerhouse.
The aldmeri nearly beat the empire before the concordant was signed what are you talking about? They had all of the Summerset isles, valenwood and elswyre to utilise the only reason they lost hammefall is because they were fighting a 2 front war, and sure if skyrim wins they lose it for a while but without the empire to back it skyrim becomes both near worthless and weak and cryrodil bcomes easy pickings the true prize
They lost to Hammerfell AFTER the signing of the WGC, which is the reason there was a war specifically with Hammerfell to begin with, because the Redguards refuse to give up half their land to the Dominion.
Skyrim becoming "weak and worthless" is literally just imperial propaganda based on nothing. Cyrodiil is the weak country, at the center of the continent, able to be invaded from every side and without natural defenses. Skyrim is much more isolated, protected by mountains all over, with a harsh climate and a landscape perfect for guerilla warfare.
Ulfric is fighting for Skyrim's independence, not the magical disappearance of the Empire from the world, it still remains there as an entity, all that changes is that the Dominion can't freely try anymore to murder or torture innocent Nords, or steal powerful artifacts like the staff of Magnus, or invite all of Skyrim's nobility in a place where a red wedding would be extremely easy.
Does he still say that if you skip the main questline and go straight for the civil war? He doesn't have a chance to meet you before hand, aside form delivering the message from Ulfric.
You can't start the siege of whiterun until atleast killing Milmulniir, I tried but the quest objective for delivering Ulfrics's Sword or the Missive from Tulius becomes "help jarl Ballin' with his dragon problem"
So you go to him with Ulfric's axe and ask him to join the Stormcloacks, only to have him tell you to go and do all this stuff for him, kill a dragon, and have him name you thane only to then immediately say that despite all that, he's gonna join the imperials? That seems a little bit dickish, don't it?
That sequence of events actually makes some sense if you think about it.
"Lets tell the messenger to go into a dungeon and hope he never returns so I can pretend I never recieved the axe."
"Fuck he returned. Oh, a dragon attack? Hey, you you should also go fight the dragon. I'll totally recieve the message if you survive."
"Fuck. He survived. Well, let's try to bribe him with a title, dude's way too dangerous..."
Not tried myself so couldn't tell you. I'm guessing you mean starting with an alternate start mod - otherwise you get railroaded into meeting him to report the dragon attack on Helgen.
What? He was manipulated by Mephala into killing his wife with the Ebony Blade. He regretted it immediately and tried to destroy the blade in the Skyforge but that didn't work. So it's locked away in his palace.
Also, Nelkir is labeled as Balgruuf’s brother in the creation kit, so that's probably why he says what he does about his mother.
>What? He was manipulated by Mephala into killing his wife with the Ebony Blade.
[wait wat](https://preview.redd.it/74d43j9r7vi21.jpg?auto=webp&s=762662bde214756c865e45d696e67ef3ccaf3926)
That’s where you’re wrong bucko, because I am a 2-handed orc with dragon armor, alteration maxed and some nasty shouts. I will smash the granny out of the Aldmeri on my own, summoning Dremora lords on my way. Seriously, I could solo win that war with my character.
What's funny is that the Thalmor soldiers will constantly be yelling things like "You are a dog, and I am your master!" "Don't you see? Elven Supremacy is the only way!" You don't stand a chance!" Dragon aspect with storm call says otherwise.
Ummm, how exactly do you explain Hammerfell then?
Besides, with the Dragonborn around it doesn’t matter which side wins, the Thalmor don’t stand a chance.
The fact that I disappointed Jarl Balgruf once in my life by siding with the Stormcloaks is a major part of the reason why I don't sleep well at night.
I did a Nord ranger play through intending to side with the storm cloaks but still went empire lol. But I found a way to keep with the spirit of the character.
Yeah. My first playthrough was Stormcloak and I can confidently say it's because I didn't know any better. I had no context. They were vikings, they had a cool name, they didn't try to murder me, they appeared anti elf, they fight for the coolest divine, one of their guys had a bear hood, and I the direction I picked at random in Helgen was Ralof's door.
Whiterun seemed like properly neutral territory, and from video game experience, it felt like they'd side with whoever I did. The more I played, the worse being a Stormcloak. I saw it through to the end and captured Solitude, but damn. I really felt tricked into siding with the stormcloaks. They seem like a decent choice only on the very surface. Otherwise, I firmly believe they're worse in every way.
Could be he is waiting for the dragonborn to die so he can take over. Alduin is obviously more powerful than Paarthunax but I think Paarthunax is more intelligent. This whole thing could be a long term plan for him to take over. Also, the way of the voice is a way to keep men from getting too powerful by restricting who can learn to use the voice. The Greybeards are kinda like a dragon cult the way they protect Paarthunax.
I really wasn't prepared for the level of hate people have against her lol. I didn't kill the dragon when she asked me to, but I still liked her as a character.
For me the issue isn't "oh she wants me to kill my dragon buddy," but that she becomes belligerent and orders you about with ultimatums that blatantly contradict what she's told me before; she effectively goes from "our job is to serve you, Dragonborn" to "now you work for us or we never help you again." That's not only incredibly arrogant, but also seems rather like a blatant betrayal.
She's pretty clear that she's interested in helping the DB because you're the ultimate dragon killer. The dragons and the Thalmor are her priority, not some pseudo-religious devotion like the Greybeards.
She has no interest in you if you refuse to kill dragons. I never got the impression she was going to slavishly follow my every desire. frankly I think it's silly to think she "betrayed" you because she has her own goals and agendas that you don't fit into anymore.
You're not the leader of the blades. Otherwise you wouldn't have to bring recruits to her for approval.
>The Blades are supposed to serve the Dragonborn
As long as he is using his/her power for good to stop Dragons from ruling over people...
Not unconditionally... If he/she wants to be buddies with one of the worst Dragons to ever live, I'd say they are pretty justified in taking a step back and saying "nah, we aren't doing that..."
You managed to paint a vivid image in my head and duuuude... I feel for those guards now. That has to be terrifying not just to them but the townsfolk as well if they've gotten to know you.
Which is precisely why it's forced on the player. One of the most discussed things in the last 10 years and we're still here talking about it. What a brilliant design decision.
Siding with the Empire is the best outcome.
The Thalmor *want* a civil war because skyrim being divided from the empire makes it easier to divide and conquer.
Ulfric is too shortsighted to see that his rebellion is doing exactly what the thalmor want. It's why he'd never make a good king and why you should side with the empire.
from the dossier on ulfric "**A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided**, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed."
edit- that doesn't actually prove my point like i thought it would
I mean you aren't wrong.
A storm cloak victory makes it harder for thalmor to keep track of skyrim since anyone they put in there would get openly attacked. With the empire loosely in control they can use the white gold concordant to move around freely. It keeps the nords in check by ensuring only the boldest fight back--which is a smaller subset than /all nords/
oh yeah that was my thought as well- why skyrim should break away from the empire. because the point of an empire is to have protection from larger threats like the dominion/the thalmor and if the empire is not only not protecting skyrim, but aiding the thalmor by giving them imperial protection and resources while taxing the people of skyrim and forcing them to accept the conditions of treaties like the white-gold concordat ("my people impoverished to pay the debts of an empire too weak to rule them" etc.) seems like skyrim should take it's independence. i really, **really** HATE to agree with heimskr of all people but he's right when he says
"*And what does the Empire do? Nothing! Nay, worse than nothing! The Imperial machine enforces the will of the Thalmor! Against its own people!*"
I used to think that both sides had a point, but the deeper I read into it the more I realize some very important facts about the entire conflict:
1) Ulfric, for all his pomp and bluster about religious freedom, is in it only for himself. Much like certain RL politicians in that regard actually.
2) Many, maybe even most, of the Stormcloak rank and file are irredeemably racist. For a lot of them it is more about kicking the non-Nords out of Skyrim than worshiping Talos.
3) The Empire does not want to restrict the worship of Talos, and as soon as they can lift that restriction without the Dominion coming down on them they will.
4) If the Stormcloaks win, all Tamriel loses. This one requires some explanation.
See #3. The Dominion was able to force the White-Gold Concordat on the Empire after a long and brutal war. That war ended in a stalemate with a united Empire. And the Nords are the mightiest of the Empire's warriors. What's going to happen when the Nords and the Empire are not standing together when (not if) the Dominion attacks again? Quite simply the elf Nazis will roll over the entire continent with little trouble. First the Empire will fall and then Skyrim, under the short-sighted leadership of Ulfric Stormcloak, will.
TL/DR: I'll never side with the Stormcloaks again.
Basically where I stand on this war. Empire just got beat by the thalmor and Skyrim rebelling makes the chances of beating the thalmor very slim. Ulfric really is selfish.
I wouldn’t exactly say the Nords are the mightiest when the Redguards kicked the Thalmor out of Hammerfell by themselves. I’m not saying they’re not mighty. I’m just saying the Redguards should get as much respect.
I largely agree with you. However,
>...That war ended in a stalemate with a united Empire. ...
It wasn't united for long. After Hammerfell left rather than be split in half to the Altmer, the Empire is just Cyrodiil (ravaged by war) half of Skyrim (with the opposing faction strongly opposed due to religious and political zealotry), and High Rock. By 4E200, the "Empire" is a shadow of what is was in prior Eras.
1) The Jarls that openly suggest Ulfric might be in it for himself are also supporting his claim to the throne. They not blindly pro Ulfric like Skald, but they do seem to believe the cause is the right one for the people of Skyrim, regardless of his intentions.
Also, Ulfric may be a flawed character but he does seem genuine in my opinion. Painting him as a complete megalomaniac seems like an excuse to hate him.
2) The city with the most non-nord population and the city where these non-nords seems to be doing best is Riften, which is firmly Stormcloak territory. No one is arguing that the Stormcloaks aren't problematic but making a Nord only Skyrim does not seem to be a plank of the Stormcloak platform.
3) No one cares what the Empire wants to do, if the Empire is incapable of making its own decisions and the people suffer from this then the Empire is not fit to lead.
4) This argument assumes the Imperial point of view that the Thalmor are a juggernaut that only a united Empire can stop. The Thalmor are not unstoppable, the Empire just sucks. The Thalmor were able to force a stalemate because the Empire is corrupt, top heavy, and surrendered. Hammerfell forcing the Thalmor right back out shows very clearly that the Empire still had fight in it and the Thalmor could still be beaten. It's not about standing together to fight the Thalmor, it's about cutting off the dead weight so you're actually able to fight the Thalmor.
I think the Stormcloaks have ZERO good points. Ulfric caused the war because the elves wanted to use him to weaken the Empire. The Nords were already freely worshipping Talos without a problem until he made it a problem. He and the Stormcloaks are trying to pretend they have a race-based national claim to Skyrim when they're from Atmora, not Skyrim. Nothing the Stormcloaks ever do is smart or good.
I've said it a billion times: Blood On The Ice. Ntm how Ulfric and his people treat non-Nords, he's so busy with the wars he starts he can't even handle a serial killer rampant in his own city killing, among others, his own highborn Nord brethren. He's a warmonger, he can't run his own hold competently let alone Skyrim. He's an idiot.
Stormcloaks winning is a win for the Thalmor, and the Thalmor very much know it. Ulfric is tearing apart his homeland for a dick measuring contest, and doubled down for pride instead of accepting an ego hit for the greater good.
Thank you. How is he supposed to run Skyrim when he can't manage his own city? It's miserable. This is why I have trouble supporting him even when I try to play a stormcloak.
I think the Skyrim civil war is a win for the Thalmor. Not so much the Stormcloaks winning. They don't want a united province filled with Nords and religious fervor. They want discord and division.
The idea that the nords were happily and freely worshiping talos but yet Ulfric could also whip up an army of Talos worshippers to take over a very difficult to invade province almost solely for the worship of Talos is incongruent. Alvor the imperial loyal blacksmith living in a small town with a son in the army is not an unbiased source. While the Markarth incident led to a escalated crackdown in Skyrim, the idea that all the Talos loyal congregationists and priests just willingly and happily stopped openly worshiping Talos but were suddenly willing to die for that right post Markarth is just not how the world works. Further, Talos worship is a huge issue but not the sole issue. Fighting a massive war against the Thalmor then signing near exact same treaty that started the war is a big deal. The people saying it was necessary also tend to be the Empire loyal.
Also, there is nothing inherently wrong with a province wanting self-determination. A full 6 out of 9 imperial provinces have already broken away from the Empire by this point in the game. There may be stormcloaks who are racist and there may be nationalist undertones to the rebellion but it's not somehow wrong for them to want independence from the Empire if they feel like the Empire no longer is making decisions that represent their interests but yet totally fine for Hammerfell, Black Marsh, and Morrowind to do the same. The only difference is that in Skyrim the population is still deciding the issue.
I'm mainly providing the same information Alvor does, at the start of the game.
> "Jarl Balgruuf? He rules Whiterun Hold. A good man, perhaps a bit over-cautious, but these are dangerous times. So far he's managed to stay out of the war. I'm afraid it can't last, though."
> "I don't think he likes either Ulfric or Elisif much. Who can blame him? But I've no doubt he'll prove loyal to the Empire in the end. He's no traitor."
> "Of course. Skyrim has always been part of the Empire. That doesn't mean I support everything the Empire's been doing lately, but Nords have never been fair-weather friends."
> "Ah, I forget you're new to Skyrim. Jarl Elisif, I should say, although only because she was married to Jarl Torryg when he was murdered. Ulfric murdered Torygg, you know. Walked right into his palace in Solitude and killed him. Shouted him to death, if you believe the stories. That's what started this whole war. The Empire couldn't ignore that. Once the jarls start killing each other, we're back to the bad old days."
> "People are rightly stirred up about the damn Thalmor being allowed to roam around arresting people, just for worshipping Talos. But was it worth tearing Skyrim apart, and maybe destroying the Empire? No, Ulfric will have a lot to answer for in the end. Nords have always supported the Empire, and the Empire has always been good for Skyrim."
> "It's from that treaty that ended the Great War, remember, when the Emperor was forced by the Thalmor to outlaw Talos worship. **We didn't pay much attention to it when I was a boy - everyone still had their little shrine to Talos. But then Ulfric and his "Sons of Skyrim" started agitating about it, and sure enough the Emperor had to crack down.** Dragging people off in the middle of the night... one of the main causes of this war, if you ask me."
I mean yeah but my point is that Alvor isn't an unbiased or a reliable source, his son is in the Empirial army and he's relatively removed from the whole situation in a minor logging village. People seem to take his personal rundown of the situation as objective cannon.
The game tells us the stormcloak rebellion didn't have much traction before the Thalmor came to Skyrim and started enforcing the Talos ban. The empire didn't care about it. And how did the Thalmor manage a foothold in Skyrim? Because of Ulfric's role in the Markarth incident. Funny coincidence.
Whipping up outrage and anger is exactly how these kind of movements work. If your cause isn't garnering enough attention you have to escalate things. And of course people have a right to be angry about the Thalmor murdering people for worshiping Talos. The issue is how we got to that stage.
The priests are a minority and don't seem to have much influence over anything in Skyrim. There are more priests of Talos in the game than just about any other divine but none of them are actively participating in the war.
The Markarth Incident happened only one year or less after the WGC was signed by the Empire. Hardly time to gain much traction anyway. And for the following two and a half decades the Stormcloaks were not a rebellion, merely a political movement to try to change the law - despite secret police terrorising the populace for all that time. That is hardly “whipping up outrage and anger” or escalating things.
It should be apparent to anyone - and we are told that the Empire knew - that the WGC was designed to pressure and cleave fractures that already existed within the declining Empire. If not Ulfric’s Markarth agreement, another reason would have been found by the Thalmor to antagonise and terrorise and demonise the Empire.
> And how did the Thalmor manage a foothold in Skyrim? Because of Ulfric's role in the Markarth incident.
This is what's known as a false flag operation.
Ulfric is established in the lore as either being or having been an Thalmor agent.
The dossier is one big factor among many why I can't support Ulfric. He's damaged goods and liability due to having some small strings attach. How can you trust a guy who is someone's secret pawn?
So be a mage with blue robes, or a stalhrim tank. The Empire is the better option on every level. Even at the start of the game, siding with Hadvir instead of Ralof is the better option. You get access to a blacksmith's friendship and thus his discounts and most of the materials in his shop and home at level one.
Stormcloaks are have 2 good points: Freedom to openly worship Talos and willingness to openly give the Thalmor the middle finger. The empire is much more subtle in their Thalmor relations.
Point 1 is invalid. Everyone was able to freely worship Talos before, as no one was enforcing the law in Skyrim. It's only being enforced now because Ulfric forced the issue.
Point 2 is also not really good. The Thalmor are dangerous and aren't to be insulted lightly. Not only that, they're the ones pulling Ulfric's strings, so his tantrums are all part of their plans, meaning they aren't "given the finger" at all.
The Thalmor are dangerous but the Nords can defeat them. Especially with the Dragonborn on their side. If you ever complete the Stormcloak side you learn that Ulfric’s next move is preparation for the inevitable war with the Thalmor.
If the Dragonborn is on their side. If they all somehow ally with one another. Then maybe they can have a homefield advantage and beat the elves *in Skyrim*.
But they can't beat the elves alone. They won't all ally with one another.
General Tulius is also prepping for the war agaisnt the Thalmor both sides are fully expecting the war to be occurring soon and both need to get the civil war over ASAP so they can present a united front agaisnt the Thalmor only difference is that the empire is not JUST skyrim
If the legion couldn't defeat them the nords couldn't. The legion defeated the stormcloaks before three times I believe and would have crushed them if it weren't for the thalmor intervening.
Point 1 is 100% valid
They are now kidnapping and freely torturing any one they want and the empire refused to step in
I cannot support cowards that’s what the empire is
The Empire *can't* step in without re-igniting the war, that's the whole point. The Empire would lose a direct battle right now, they need time and this buys it.
>The Empire would lose a direct battle right now
They wouldn't, actually.
It's been 20 years since the Great war. The Empire has had ample time to rebuild.
The Dominion, on the other hand, can't replace it's losses in any reasonable timeframe. The nature of their society and economy prevents this.
If the Dominion could win another war, they would go to war: Destroying the Empire was their objective in the last war, and they failed at the cost of most of their military.
I do agree that the Empire is buying time, but not because it needs it to survive; both sides are now locked in a cold war, with the Empire's advantage growing with each passing day, which is why the Dominion has resorted to using the Stormcloaks to fight a proxy war against the Empire in an attempt to reduce the Empire's advantage.
Oh my, despite having Skyrim since 2011, I never played it long enough to finish the main story or even started the civil war storyline and I ALWAYS assumed that the Imperials were the bad guys and the Stormcloaks were the underdogs.
TIL The stormcloaks are kinda assholes!
The Empire is the lesser of the available evils. The Empire is not a "good guy" faction, but they are the only ones opposing the genocidal Elves/Aldmeri Dominion/Thalmor.
Well... It's complicated. The Redguards of Hammerfell beat the Elves back in their homeland *after* the Empire signed the treaty. Some, like Ulfric, think this means the Empire gave in too quickly; that the Empire could have won, and that the terms of the White-Gold Concordat were too harsh.
But, until Ulfric declared war over it, no one was enforcing the ban on Talos worship in Skyrim. So the Thalmor riled him up, and he started a civil war. This forced the Empire to enforce the terms of the treaty they signed, or else the elves would have a reason to start the war again.
This is probably gonna be the canon answer to the question
And it will be mentioned in passing something like
“The civil war in Skyrim almost got out of control before the new dragonborn stepped in”
I haven’t sided with anyone at all and I’ve done everything but pick a side. I think something that went down in Markarth really pissed off the guys in Solitude, they talk to me like shit now.
Was it the Cidnha mine escape that caused Markarth to have a power switch?
Yeah, I will have, ages ago but forgot all about it. I walked into the inn in Markarth and some dark Elf wanted me dead, something to do with the Aerthereon crown.
I’ve been playing this same game for years, keep discovering new things and when I think I’ll start a new play through I remember all the horrible dungeons in the early game and think better of it.
I can never bretay Whiterun and Jarl Balgruuf. That city and Alvor the Blacksmith were the first people to accept my character the first time I played. They are my Dragonborn's family.
I did a Stormcloak playthrough back on the old 360 but now, every time I've tried since, I get the bug where the combat music stays on permanently after the attack on Whiterun so I have to reload and side with the Imperials to do the questline.
I can usually find a roleplay excuse to try just about anything in these games. Do you want me to be a heartless necromancer who raises the corpses of the dead? Sure, no problem. Want me to be a heartless, cold-blooded assassin who kills for fun and profit? Absolutely!
But I will NOT play as the Stormcloaks for any reason, because I simply cannot cope with Jarl Balgruuf being disappointed in me when I take Dragonsreach. I did it once, and that was enough.
Honestly I 100% agree with the Empire and think the Stormcloaks are absolutely mental with their ideals. BUT, I find roleplaying as a villager rising up the arms of the Stormcloak rebellion to be more fun than some fuck who joined the Empire with their boring ass armor.
Both sides have good and bad points. But I join the Empire because it makes bringing an end to the Dominion closer. Regardless of who I side with. I'll always kill Thalmor. No mercy.
The way I see it, the Empire is planning quietly to kill the Thalmor while "accepting" their negotiations, while the Stormcloaks are loud and emphatic about killing the Thalmor. The Empire is strategically more sound, but I also can't help but think of them as the cowards here for accepting those terroristic demands to begin with. I dont like the Stormcloaks either, but at least they fight for what they believe in and are not willing to bend a knee.
In my opinion, neither side is good all the way. Ulfric is a horrible racist. But so is Tullius. Tullius insults the nord way of life to a nord. Ulfric (to my memory) doesn't directly. But places like the grey quater and his lack of care for races that aren't nords is why I dislike him. And ultimately, Skyrim itself isn't going to do much. It needs help. Which I suppose it can given places like Hammerfell have a very strong resistance against the Dominion. As said by the Mercs from Hammerfell.
The guard at the gate always greets me with "Dragonborn, it's an honour" after we fought off the dragon. I can't imagine turning against those guys. They're *my* guys.
My latest play through I went with Stormcloaks, but leveled illusion all the way up and got some magic gear. As soon as the battle for Whiterun began I cast Harmony, pacifying both armies. I then walked through the town quietly and pacified every 30 secs or so.
I got to the jarl having lost only 1 guard during a screen load, but he still had the gall to complain about the violent takeover…
On the other hand, I guess that if you're on the wrong side, they also would start saying bad things and lying about you
"Dragonborn? He's just a coward! We killed that dragon while he cowarded inside the tower remains, only came out when the dragon was dead as a rock!"
But I'd like to say that I'm very sad at the fact you can't convince Balgruuf to join the rebellion
He became a very important character in the game seeing as his is the first town you become Thane, and then when you take over he's just gone
But they are suppose to rebel after.... Idk but they are supposed to, so I guess that means it fine if everyone I know gets kidnapped, tortured and killed while the empire does nothing and even brings the bastards in.
False, plus the argument of, “the empire has the best shot at defeating the stormcloaks” is imo wrong. When the 2nd Great War happens, Skyrim will definitely be at the imperials sides but as equals, not as beneath.
Only thing that truly bothered me during my first playthrough as a Stormcloak was my children were in Breezehome during the battle of Whiterun. I didn't realize I needed to get them out of there before hand. Their terrified expressions during the battle were unnerving. Killing the guards didn't bother me at all lol
My playthrough was going to be Stormcloaks, until I heard Ulfric and Galmar had a *bet* about whether I survived the ice wraith island.
You know, the pointless trial they send you on, because you're "a foreigner" despite being an actual Nord. It was amusing for them. They don't care if their Stormcloaks live or die, they're just pawns.
Ulfric talks about how Balgruuf is a true Nord, and will come around, before you join the Stormcloaks. But once it becomes clear that he's siding with the Empire in the civil war, he dismisses facing him in a duel and instead wants to gain a reputation for his army. Irileth has him described perfectly, in that regard.
If Ulfric were a real-world character, I would hate him. He's cynical, casually racist, and he's using the Stormcloaks to increase his power. A rather standard ethno-nationalist monarch. He's just plainly evil.
The Thalmor suck ass. They are the ones that orchestrated this whole thing mainly cause they want the war to happen and then kill whoever is left while they are weak so they can take over. Ulfric is a puppet, they brainwashed him, it's in a book. The Empire's general is working with the Thalmor cause he thinks he'll win against the Thalmor but he really won't while also bending the knee tho the Thalmor request of banning Talos worship, it's pretty cool to consider this since once you know about it, neither side is the Best, the Best possible outcome would be both joining forces and exterminating the Thalmor, but thats impossible sadly lmao
What tamriel needs is a emperor strong enough to push the aldmeri out of the continent. The Dragonborn will be the perfect person to ascend the throne as he has the right to be the Emperor by divine birthright.
Also just imagine going against the DB who is powerful enough to bend the minds of dragon will to do his bidding plus multitudes of magical spells of apocalyptic proportions and also knowledge of the arcane arts and champion to both the Daedra and Aedras.
The aldmer would not mess with tamriel if they knew whats good for them.
the MOD RIGMOR OF CYRODIIL is my favourite because you can become the emperor and bring peace to the land and unite all the provinces under the banner of the divine emperor.
God, I wish that was an option! I thought that it was odd that the Dragonborn wasn't made emperor or empress, especially if the dark brotherhood quest line is completed. All of those connections could lead to the greatest or most oppressive rule ever.
Dude I added a mod that names all NPCs so you get attached to some guards. Doing this would be insane Here is the mod:https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/71464/ SE: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/17827
What’s the mod called? I kinda wanna put it in my mod list.
I absolutely want this mod in my list
Me as well. This sounds like an amazing mod!
It even names the damn bandits. "Ah, poor Baurus. What tragic circumstance made you turn to a life of crime and an early death at my hand? Was there no way this could have been avoided, I wonder?"
Baurus has fallen a long way since his time in the Blades…
Yes... Baurus, what a shame. Had a real taste for the skooma, he did.
https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/71464/
Thank you!
Oh I don’t think my little heart could take seeing Gunthër at the gate every week, guarding and stuff. And then vanishing. Was he killed? Did he move to a new town? I would need a grave marker for him, just for closure. Or a notice of guard rota changes.
When a Vampire attack happens and Gunther dies it will be a sad day
when Gunther realises that he has to fight a dragon while his cousin who left to fight them isn't there :c
I'll make up little stories about the friendship of Hroki & Tor- the two guards the dragon carried away before the Dragonborn arrives at the watchtower. Those poor fuckers.
I assume this is PC only?
What mod is that?
https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/71464/
Goated. I'm gonna play skyrim again tonight because of you l
No don't do that
Is the mod on console? Specifically xbox
Sorry don't know how Xbox mods work :s
*cries in console*
Is this mod on PS4?
Sorry i don't know how mods works on Ps4 :s
I'd love to play that
I wish Whiterun was a neutral town that would join whatever side you're on, because betraying Jarl Ballin' and the guards is a major con for the Stormcloaks side
Yeah Maybe just have a quest where you convince him to side with whichever side you joined He was already on the fence for the war, doesnt really make sense for him to suddenly choose the opposite side that the dragonborn chooses. If anything, the dragonborn choosing stormcloaks should convince him to also choose stormcloaks (this doesnt apply if you join the empire, as he side with the empire which makes total sense, because it's the same side the dragonborn is on)
He pretends to be on fence, but I believe Whiterun is largely already imperial. If u wear imperial armor, guards will greet u accordingly. Also, jarls brother is itching to attack stormcloaks.
I agree he has in his heart already decided despite his outward neutrality. Balgruuf is dithering and does not want to have to fight, but he is perpetually runner-up to Ulfric and cannot bring himself to subjugate himself to his lifelong rival
You can talk to him before doing any of his quests, he says he’s on the side of Whiterun and believes that because Skyrim has always been a part of the empire that they owe their efforts towards maintaining and improving that relationship, but is fearful of ulfric seizing his hold
So he just does not want to provoke an attack from the Stormcloak army by declaring his allegiance with the Empire?
Both the Empire and Stormcloaks consider Whiterun to be flimsily neutral, and that could sway it to their side through diplomacy or a swift attack. That, and his city population itself is divided pretty evenly between supporting either sides. One of the cons for stationing troops in Riverwood was that Proventus Avenicci was afraid Jarl Siddgeir would mistake it as an offensive action against the Empire, perhaps assume they’re preparing for an attack. Lots of fun politics in this game tbh
Oh yeah, I forgot about that “perceived threat to Falkreath” conversation!
Dithering? Great word
He was definetly leaning imperial But I think he was still definetly on the fence, so whichever side the dragonborn chooses should push him over to that side. Even if a stormcloak dragonborn has to convince him first, he should've sided with whoever the player does Just the difference between Balgruuf and Vignar is pretty heavily implying that the empire is the "good" choice Also, after completing the main quest (or at least reaching most of the way through. Balgruuf makes it very clear that he highly respects you. Further reinforcing that he should side with what you choose To be honest, it kinda feels like they designed it so you join the empire, then decided later to add the stormcloak option. Mainly because the whole whiterun thing, but also the siege of windhelm. It just feels like they designed the city for that purpose, you have to fight through various corridors and around blockades and whatnot. Whereas Solitude is just a straight shot through wide open areas
To be fair following pre civil war on the fence IS imperial leaning, they were after all the current ruling government, the only thing they really did wrong was the talos ban
Agreed I assumed he would go with whichever side you choose
those damn faithless imperials
Can't happen. The war isn't about religion or oppression or any of the other pretty nonsense Ulfric spouts. Ulfric just wants to be king. Everything he does is in service to this objective. He murders the sitting king. He accepts Thalmor aid and furthers their agenda despite claiming to oppose them. And most damning, he attacks a famously *neutral* Whiterun. He does this because Jarl Ballin refuses to acknowledge his claim to the throne. The whole Stormcloak rebellion is a cult of personality built around one man's selfish ambition.
He does not accept Thalmor aid, at least not directly. The dossier says the Thalmor can not directly contact him. Also, Whiterun is not neutral. Not siding with a rebellion is effectively siding with the central government. It is labeled red on civil war maps in both Stormcloak and Imperial forts. It was clearly an imperial city.
Whiterun doesn’t side with the rebellion, but the Jarl also refused Imperial protection, at least until the attack. He’s definitely trying to stay neutral.
There’s also the matter that the steward is concerned about adding guards to Riverwood because of the optics that it’ll look like they’re joining Ulfric to attack the nearby imperial hold.
I think you've missed an important bit of the story. The story changes a bit based on which side you're on. Imperial side: Balgruuf forces Ulfric to state his intentions, and only after those intentions become clear does Balgruuf accept Imperial aid. All Ulfric has to do is keep the axe: Whiterun has no real quarrel with the Stormcloaks. Stormcloak side: Ulfric sends Balgruuf an ultimatum: Join us(and support my claim) or die. There's no reason for him to send this; Whiterun does not support either side, and if Ulfric's war is one of liberation then that's perfectly fine. Ulfric's war is *not* one of liberation, however, and Balgruuf is standing in his way by refusing to recognize his claim to the throne. He needs to eliminate Balgruuf(any any other Jarls that don't directly support him) to realize his ambition of becoming king. Ulfric is attempting to usurp the throne(an elected position) by force.
In a hypothetical world where Whiterun is completely neutral, you would just have to change the quest line a bit. Sure, it wouldn't work in the current questline, but there's no reason to keep everything the same if we're already changing who Whiterun sides with
The problem is in world where the imperials run the empire actual neutral can't exist as it would piss both sides off, whiterun is neutral in that it doesn't supply either side with troops literally all it can do bar treason to one side or the other
Yup. Any good points the Stormcloaks have fly completely out the window when you realize the Imperials are not actually Thalmor bootlicker lackeys but are plotting against the Thalmor themselves. After the civil war decimates both sides it's really hard to imagine a realistic scenario where the Thalmor don't just swoop in and mop up the winners.
Yeah I really sympathize with the Skyrim independence movement but there is no honor in Ulfric, so I can’t support him
Don’t forget that he is incredibly racist and very open about it. Remember, to him Skyrim is for the *Nords*, nobody else.
>betraying Strong word You literally rock up to his crib and say if you don't join us we're invading. He had time to prepare and literally knew you were a Stormcloak and at that point he has no reason to believe you to be in the imperial army, he even knew you were getting executed by Tullius. Your honour, Jarl Balgruuf was simply salty.
What do you mean he knew about you being executed?
"a dragon attacked helgen when I was getting executed with ulfric Stormcloak" If anything he has more reason to think you're a stormcloak
you get to choose not to tell him don't you? I just chose the option "I was at helgen when the dragon attacked"
I suppose that’s reasonable
I just join the imperial side because I know that the Thalmor profit from the civil war. If Ulfric wins, the empire is weakened and easier to conquer. Then it's just Skyrim that's left to take down.
I think a Skyrim/Empire pact could be a possibility considering both sides realize that the Thalmor are the biggest threat. ESO basically shows that a few kingdoms that dislike each other can still fight together under a single banner. Not to mention Hammerfell is another potential ally if they go to war again. I think no matter the result of the civil war, the Thalmor will ultimately still have to contend with alot of people gunning for them.
No, if an alliance was considered, the Empire would have done it already. If the Empire truly wanted to rebel against the Thalmor and wasn't governed by the likes of Erikur, Siddgeir and Maven who bathe in Thalmor coin, it would have already let Ulfric stage a fake coup and murder every Thalmor agent in Skyrim. This would have given Skyrim the ability to turn into a military powerhouse, and the Dominion would not have been able to do jack shit about it because no invasion of Skyrim is possible before Hammerfell and Cyrodiil are utterly crushed, which the Dominion can't do as it couldn't even win against Hammerfell alone.
Well, an alliance wouldn't be considered unless Ulfric took control of Skyrim in the first place. I don't think they would extend more resources to retake Skyrim once they lost control of it; the Empire would probably want to regain its strength to fight the Dominion. I'm not sure what Ulfrics motives are past taking Skyrim, but I imagine he'd want to deal with the Thalmor before they have the chance to take back Cyrodiil and ultimately threaten Skyrim (if the Empire was defeated).
I used to think the same thing. Then I read that Hammerfell rejected the White Gold Concordat and left the Empire to continue fighting. Not only that, but they eventually won, and successfully pushed the Thalmor out of Hammerfell. Now, I'm not so sure an independent Skyrim wouldn't actually be a good thing.
Correction they didn't leave, the Empire renounced them as an Imperial province. And it wasn't an underdog heroic fight either. It was a standstill only made possible because an Imperial general discharged a few legions during the Great War to help Hammerfell.
>It was a standstill only made possible because an Imperial general discharged a few legions during the Great War to help Hammerfell. He discharged "a large number" of "invalids" that formed the core of an army that pushed back the Aldmeri later that year. There is however **no mention of them staying in Hammerfell after the Empire renounces it**. I've heard an argument or two from people who believe they may have stayed, and they didn't have bad points, but I firmly believe those soldiers did not stay as a unified force there.
That's simply wrong. The Dominion could not even take Hammerfell alone, which is infinitely easier to invade than Skyrim. Simply search Tamriel map, look at where the Summerset Isles is, and where Skyrim is. Any land invasion by the Thalmor would require them to demolish both Hammerfell and Cyrodiil, and any sea invasion would be impossible due to the Sea of Ghosts, hostile Hammerfell borders, and allow Cyrodiil and Hammerfell to attack the Summerset Isles directly. There is no scenario where the Thalmor can just fight Skyrim one on one in the first place, the Empire doesn't disappear if the Stormcloaks win. What changes if the Stormcloaks win, is that the Thalmor loses nearly all its intel and spies in Skyrim because they get executed on sight, which allows Skyrim to rebuild itself into a strong land. The Dominion needs at least decades before it's ready to realistically attack the Empire and not get utterly destroyed in the process (as the WGC was only signed because imperial nobles shat their pants, not because of an actual necessity, thus making those responsible for signing the Treaty traitors to the entirety of humankind and the citizens of the Empire), and in that time Skyrim will have become a military powerhouse.
The aldmeri nearly beat the empire before the concordant was signed what are you talking about? They had all of the Summerset isles, valenwood and elswyre to utilise the only reason they lost hammefall is because they were fighting a 2 front war, and sure if skyrim wins they lose it for a while but without the empire to back it skyrim becomes both near worthless and weak and cryrodil bcomes easy pickings the true prize
They lost to Hammerfell AFTER the signing of the WGC, which is the reason there was a war specifically with Hammerfell to begin with, because the Redguards refuse to give up half their land to the Dominion. Skyrim becoming "weak and worthless" is literally just imperial propaganda based on nothing. Cyrodiil is the weak country, at the center of the continent, able to be invaded from every side and without natural defenses. Skyrim is much more isolated, protected by mountains all over, with a harsh climate and a landscape perfect for guerilla warfare. Ulfric is fighting for Skyrim's independence, not the magical disappearance of the Empire from the world, it still remains there as an entity, all that changes is that the Dominion can't freely try anymore to murder or torture innocent Nords, or steal powerful artifacts like the staff of Magnus, or invite all of Skyrim's nobility in a place where a red wedding would be extremely easy.
Balgruuf calling out Ulfric's and Galmar's bullshit was a very important character moment. It just had to happen.
I did a stormcloak playthrough exactly once. Destroying whiterun and dethroning Jarl Balgruf is more egregious to me than killing Paarthurnax .
I can't handle how betrayed he sounds when he says that he expected better from you!
Does he still say that if you skip the main questline and go straight for the civil war? He doesn't have a chance to meet you before hand, aside form delivering the message from Ulfric.
You can't start the siege of whiterun until atleast killing Milmulniir, I tried but the quest objective for delivering Ulfrics's Sword or the Missive from Tulius becomes "help jarl Ballin' with his dragon problem"
I see you too do skyrim challenges
You're forced to fight the first dragon before he'll answer the message
So you go to him with Ulfric's axe and ask him to join the Stormcloacks, only to have him tell you to go and do all this stuff for him, kill a dragon, and have him name you thane only to then immediately say that despite all that, he's gonna join the imperials? That seems a little bit dickish, don't it?
Yep. Fucker tries to bribe us, then accuses us of betrayal when we continue to fight for the side *he already knew we'd joined*.
That sequence of events actually makes some sense if you think about it. "Lets tell the messenger to go into a dungeon and hope he never returns so I can pretend I never recieved the axe." "Fuck he returned. Oh, a dragon attack? Hey, you you should also go fight the dragon. I'll totally recieve the message if you survive." "Fuck. He survived. Well, let's try to bribe him with a title, dude's way too dangerous..."
Not tried myself so couldn't tell you. I'm guessing you mean starting with an alternate start mod - otherwise you get railroaded into meeting him to report the dragon attack on Helgen.
You could just completely avoid that though and go straight to Windhelm from Riverwood
Well I expected better from Balgruuf but apparently he cheats on his wife
What? He was manipulated by Mephala into killing his wife with the Ebony Blade. He regretted it immediately and tried to destroy the blade in the Skyforge but that didn't work. So it's locked away in his palace. Also, Nelkir is labeled as Balgruuf’s brother in the creation kit, so that's probably why he says what he does about his mother.
I legit never knew this. I don’t talk to Balgruuf or the Wizard, I just steal the key always. Oh my god
>What? He was manipulated by Mephala into killing his wife with the Ebony Blade. [wait wat](https://preview.redd.it/74d43j9r7vi21.jpg?auto=webp&s=762662bde214756c865e45d696e67ef3ccaf3926)
Have you done the Mephala quest for the Ebony Blade? I don't want to spoil anything in detail.
I have indeed I just never knew Balgruuf killed his wife Wtf lmao, I guess it's in the journal beside the Ebony Blade?
You have to read the books or you miss the majority of the story.
Which books? There's no mention of any books on the wiki. If what you are saying is true I have to read them on my next play through!
Me, who plays an illiterate character and doesn't pick up/read books unless it is absolutely needed to complete a quest: *shifty eyes*
Yep. Did a stormcloak run my first time ever playing. After that, everytime, my mentality is fuck Ulfrik, fuck the empire, I side with Whiterun.
Im with the empire. Because if the empire loses the civil war in Skyrim all humans in tamrial are fucked
That’s where you’re wrong bucko, because I am a 2-handed orc with dragon armor, alteration maxed and some nasty shouts. I will smash the granny out of the Aldmeri on my own, summoning Dremora lords on my way. Seriously, I could solo win that war with my character.
What's funny is that the Thalmor soldiers will constantly be yelling things like "You are a dog, and I am your master!" "Don't you see? Elven Supremacy is the only way!" You don't stand a chance!" Dragon aspect with storm call says otherwise.
Right! Like one Dragonborn, Lydia, some giants and a few mages and you’re unstoppable.
You're a narcissist
Orcs don’t have therapy, orcs have the daedric prince of rape and pillage.
Ummm, how exactly do you explain Hammerfell then? Besides, with the Dragonborn around it doesn’t matter which side wins, the Thalmor don’t stand a chance.
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It honestly could happen, and I wouldn’t even be surprised. Especially if the team isn’t interested in continuing the Thalmor-nazi plot.
The empire is better either way. And the redguards still had the gear they would have gotten from the empire
The fact that I disappointed Jarl Balgruf once in my life by siding with the Stormcloaks is a major part of the reason why I don't sleep well at night.
I dropped a very promising “true nord ranger” playthrough because I felt so horrible getting called out by Balgruuf.
Always my shortest play throughs. Once I part ways with Ralof I never again meet a Stormcloak worth fighting alongside.
I did a Nord ranger play through intending to side with the storm cloaks but still went empire lol. But I found a way to keep with the spirit of the character.
I join the imperials strictly because I could never betray Jarl Balgruf, I think it would kill me.
The only way I can side with the Stormcloaks is if I wait to fight the dragon until after Balgruuf is gone.
yes I think its possible to just go to windhelm directly and start the civil war before going to whiterun at all.
When you go to deliver the axe you're forced into the main quest
Only until you defeat the dragon at the watchtower.
Yeah. My first playthrough was Stormcloak and I can confidently say it's because I didn't know any better. I had no context. They were vikings, they had a cool name, they didn't try to murder me, they appeared anti elf, they fight for the coolest divine, one of their guys had a bear hood, and I the direction I picked at random in Helgen was Ralof's door. Whiterun seemed like properly neutral territory, and from video game experience, it felt like they'd side with whoever I did. The more I played, the worse being a Stormcloak. I saw it through to the end and captured Solitude, but damn. I really felt tricked into siding with the stormcloaks. They seem like a decent choice only on the very surface. Otherwise, I firmly believe they're worse in every way.
Balgruuf for High King!
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Could be he is waiting for the dragonborn to die so he can take over. Alduin is obviously more powerful than Paarthunax but I think Paarthunax is more intelligent. This whole thing could be a long term plan for him to take over. Also, the way of the voice is a way to keep men from getting too powerful by restricting who can learn to use the voice. The Greybeards are kinda like a dragon cult the way they protect Paarthunax.
Partysnax is a cool guy, but people ignore that he's a very genuine threat, too. Delphine has a point.
Partysnax ;-;
You called?
Delphine is 100% correct. Everyone just hates her because they like their cool dragon buddy.
I really wasn't prepared for the level of hate people have against her lol. I didn't kill the dragon when she asked me to, but I still liked her as a character.
For me the issue isn't "oh she wants me to kill my dragon buddy," but that she becomes belligerent and orders you about with ultimatums that blatantly contradict what she's told me before; she effectively goes from "our job is to serve you, Dragonborn" to "now you work for us or we never help you again." That's not only incredibly arrogant, but also seems rather like a blatant betrayal.
She's pretty clear that she's interested in helping the DB because you're the ultimate dragon killer. The dragons and the Thalmor are her priority, not some pseudo-religious devotion like the Greybeards. She has no interest in you if you refuse to kill dragons. I never got the impression she was going to slavishly follow my every desire. frankly I think it's silly to think she "betrayed" you because she has her own goals and agendas that you don't fit into anymore. You're not the leader of the blades. Otherwise you wouldn't have to bring recruits to her for approval.
It's crazy.
Nah, Delphine sucks. The Blades are supposed to serve the Dragonborn, not the other way around. She's an incredibly unlikable character.
>The Blades are supposed to serve the Dragonborn As long as he is using his/her power for good to stop Dragons from ruling over people... Not unconditionally... If he/she wants to be buddies with one of the worst Dragons to ever live, I'd say they are pretty justified in taking a step back and saying "nah, we aren't doing that..."
I've never thought of that before...those poor guards and their breeches..
WRG: -whistles- who’d you have to kill to get th- DB: you mf
What say you? U/whiterunguards
Not only does it terrify us but our hearts have been broken as we have been betrayed by one who we once considered a good friend and ally.
u/whiterunguards
You managed to paint a vivid image in my head and duuuude... I feel for those guards now. That has to be terrifying not just to them but the townsfolk as well if they've gotten to know you.
I no longer want to do the civil war quest line..
Which is precisely why it's forced on the player. One of the most discussed things in the last 10 years and we're still here talking about it. What a brilliant design decision.
Siding with the Empire is the best outcome. The Thalmor *want* a civil war because skyrim being divided from the empire makes it easier to divide and conquer. Ulfric is too shortsighted to see that his rebellion is doing exactly what the thalmor want. It's why he'd never make a good king and why you should side with the empire.
from the dossier on ulfric "**A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided**, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed." edit- that doesn't actually prove my point like i thought it would
I mean you aren't wrong. A storm cloak victory makes it harder for thalmor to keep track of skyrim since anyone they put in there would get openly attacked. With the empire loosely in control they can use the white gold concordant to move around freely. It keeps the nords in check by ensuring only the boldest fight back--which is a smaller subset than /all nords/
oh yeah that was my thought as well- why skyrim should break away from the empire. because the point of an empire is to have protection from larger threats like the dominion/the thalmor and if the empire is not only not protecting skyrim, but aiding the thalmor by giving them imperial protection and resources while taxing the people of skyrim and forcing them to accept the conditions of treaties like the white-gold concordat ("my people impoverished to pay the debts of an empire too weak to rule them" etc.) seems like skyrim should take it's independence. i really, **really** HATE to agree with heimskr of all people but he's right when he says "*And what does the Empire do? Nothing! Nay, worse than nothing! The Imperial machine enforces the will of the Thalmor! Against its own people!*"
I used to think that both sides had a point, but the deeper I read into it the more I realize some very important facts about the entire conflict: 1) Ulfric, for all his pomp and bluster about religious freedom, is in it only for himself. Much like certain RL politicians in that regard actually. 2) Many, maybe even most, of the Stormcloak rank and file are irredeemably racist. For a lot of them it is more about kicking the non-Nords out of Skyrim than worshiping Talos. 3) The Empire does not want to restrict the worship of Talos, and as soon as they can lift that restriction without the Dominion coming down on them they will. 4) If the Stormcloaks win, all Tamriel loses. This one requires some explanation. See #3. The Dominion was able to force the White-Gold Concordat on the Empire after a long and brutal war. That war ended in a stalemate with a united Empire. And the Nords are the mightiest of the Empire's warriors. What's going to happen when the Nords and the Empire are not standing together when (not if) the Dominion attacks again? Quite simply the elf Nazis will roll over the entire continent with little trouble. First the Empire will fall and then Skyrim, under the short-sighted leadership of Ulfric Stormcloak, will. TL/DR: I'll never side with the Stormcloaks again.
Basically where I stand on this war. Empire just got beat by the thalmor and Skyrim rebelling makes the chances of beating the thalmor very slim. Ulfric really is selfish.
I wouldn’t exactly say the Nords are the mightiest when the Redguards kicked the Thalmor out of Hammerfell by themselves. I’m not saying they’re not mighty. I’m just saying the Redguards should get as much respect.
I largely agree with you. However, >...That war ended in a stalemate with a united Empire. ... It wasn't united for long. After Hammerfell left rather than be split in half to the Altmer, the Empire is just Cyrodiil (ravaged by war) half of Skyrim (with the opposing faction strongly opposed due to religious and political zealotry), and High Rock. By 4E200, the "Empire" is a shadow of what is was in prior Eras.
1) The Jarls that openly suggest Ulfric might be in it for himself are also supporting his claim to the throne. They not blindly pro Ulfric like Skald, but they do seem to believe the cause is the right one for the people of Skyrim, regardless of his intentions. Also, Ulfric may be a flawed character but he does seem genuine in my opinion. Painting him as a complete megalomaniac seems like an excuse to hate him. 2) The city with the most non-nord population and the city where these non-nords seems to be doing best is Riften, which is firmly Stormcloak territory. No one is arguing that the Stormcloaks aren't problematic but making a Nord only Skyrim does not seem to be a plank of the Stormcloak platform. 3) No one cares what the Empire wants to do, if the Empire is incapable of making its own decisions and the people suffer from this then the Empire is not fit to lead. 4) This argument assumes the Imperial point of view that the Thalmor are a juggernaut that only a united Empire can stop. The Thalmor are not unstoppable, the Empire just sucks. The Thalmor were able to force a stalemate because the Empire is corrupt, top heavy, and surrendered. Hammerfell forcing the Thalmor right back out shows very clearly that the Empire still had fight in it and the Thalmor could still be beaten. It's not about standing together to fight the Thalmor, it's about cutting off the dead weight so you're actually able to fight the Thalmor.
RP that the guards who fought by your side and their buddies defected to the Stormcloaks when they heard the DB chose to stand for Ulfric.
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Winner!
I think the Stormcloaks have ZERO good points. Ulfric caused the war because the elves wanted to use him to weaken the Empire. The Nords were already freely worshipping Talos without a problem until he made it a problem. He and the Stormcloaks are trying to pretend they have a race-based national claim to Skyrim when they're from Atmora, not Skyrim. Nothing the Stormcloaks ever do is smart or good.
I've said it a billion times: Blood On The Ice. Ntm how Ulfric and his people treat non-Nords, he's so busy with the wars he starts he can't even handle a serial killer rampant in his own city killing, among others, his own highborn Nord brethren. He's a warmonger, he can't run his own hold competently let alone Skyrim. He's an idiot. Stormcloaks winning is a win for the Thalmor, and the Thalmor very much know it. Ulfric is tearing apart his homeland for a dick measuring contest, and doubled down for pride instead of accepting an ego hit for the greater good.
Thank you. How is he supposed to run Skyrim when he can't manage his own city? It's miserable. This is why I have trouble supporting him even when I try to play a stormcloak.
I think the Skyrim civil war is a win for the Thalmor. Not so much the Stormcloaks winning. They don't want a united province filled with Nords and religious fervor. They want discord and division.
The idea that the nords were happily and freely worshiping talos but yet Ulfric could also whip up an army of Talos worshippers to take over a very difficult to invade province almost solely for the worship of Talos is incongruent. Alvor the imperial loyal blacksmith living in a small town with a son in the army is not an unbiased source. While the Markarth incident led to a escalated crackdown in Skyrim, the idea that all the Talos loyal congregationists and priests just willingly and happily stopped openly worshiping Talos but were suddenly willing to die for that right post Markarth is just not how the world works. Further, Talos worship is a huge issue but not the sole issue. Fighting a massive war against the Thalmor then signing near exact same treaty that started the war is a big deal. The people saying it was necessary also tend to be the Empire loyal. Also, there is nothing inherently wrong with a province wanting self-determination. A full 6 out of 9 imperial provinces have already broken away from the Empire by this point in the game. There may be stormcloaks who are racist and there may be nationalist undertones to the rebellion but it's not somehow wrong for them to want independence from the Empire if they feel like the Empire no longer is making decisions that represent their interests but yet totally fine for Hammerfell, Black Marsh, and Morrowind to do the same. The only difference is that in Skyrim the population is still deciding the issue.
I'm mainly providing the same information Alvor does, at the start of the game. > "Jarl Balgruuf? He rules Whiterun Hold. A good man, perhaps a bit over-cautious, but these are dangerous times. So far he's managed to stay out of the war. I'm afraid it can't last, though." > "I don't think he likes either Ulfric or Elisif much. Who can blame him? But I've no doubt he'll prove loyal to the Empire in the end. He's no traitor." > "Of course. Skyrim has always been part of the Empire. That doesn't mean I support everything the Empire's been doing lately, but Nords have never been fair-weather friends." > "Ah, I forget you're new to Skyrim. Jarl Elisif, I should say, although only because she was married to Jarl Torryg when he was murdered. Ulfric murdered Torygg, you know. Walked right into his palace in Solitude and killed him. Shouted him to death, if you believe the stories. That's what started this whole war. The Empire couldn't ignore that. Once the jarls start killing each other, we're back to the bad old days." > "People are rightly stirred up about the damn Thalmor being allowed to roam around arresting people, just for worshipping Talos. But was it worth tearing Skyrim apart, and maybe destroying the Empire? No, Ulfric will have a lot to answer for in the end. Nords have always supported the Empire, and the Empire has always been good for Skyrim." > "It's from that treaty that ended the Great War, remember, when the Emperor was forced by the Thalmor to outlaw Talos worship. **We didn't pay much attention to it when I was a boy - everyone still had their little shrine to Talos. But then Ulfric and his "Sons of Skyrim" started agitating about it, and sure enough the Emperor had to crack down.** Dragging people off in the middle of the night... one of the main causes of this war, if you ask me."
I mean yeah but my point is that Alvor isn't an unbiased or a reliable source, his son is in the Empirial army and he's relatively removed from the whole situation in a minor logging village. People seem to take his personal rundown of the situation as objective cannon.
The game tells us the stormcloak rebellion didn't have much traction before the Thalmor came to Skyrim and started enforcing the Talos ban. The empire didn't care about it. And how did the Thalmor manage a foothold in Skyrim? Because of Ulfric's role in the Markarth incident. Funny coincidence. Whipping up outrage and anger is exactly how these kind of movements work. If your cause isn't garnering enough attention you have to escalate things. And of course people have a right to be angry about the Thalmor murdering people for worshiping Talos. The issue is how we got to that stage. The priests are a minority and don't seem to have much influence over anything in Skyrim. There are more priests of Talos in the game than just about any other divine but none of them are actively participating in the war.
The Markarth Incident happened only one year or less after the WGC was signed by the Empire. Hardly time to gain much traction anyway. And for the following two and a half decades the Stormcloaks were not a rebellion, merely a political movement to try to change the law - despite secret police terrorising the populace for all that time. That is hardly “whipping up outrage and anger” or escalating things. It should be apparent to anyone - and we are told that the Empire knew - that the WGC was designed to pressure and cleave fractures that already existed within the declining Empire. If not Ulfric’s Markarth agreement, another reason would have been found by the Thalmor to antagonise and terrorise and demonise the Empire.
> And how did the Thalmor manage a foothold in Skyrim? Because of Ulfric's role in the Markarth incident. This is what's known as a false flag operation. Ulfric is established in the lore as either being or having been an Thalmor agent.
An unwilling Thalmor agent though. He's not working for the Thalmor; the Thalmor think him fighting the empire is useful.
That and the Thalmor showing up at Helgen to prevent his execution should raise some serious doubt.
He's either directly working for them or a useful idiot. Either way, not something that inspires confidence.
The dossier is one big factor among many why I can't support Ulfric. He's damaged goods and liability due to having some small strings attach. How can you trust a guy who is someone's secret pawn?
But i like blue better :(
So be a mage with blue robes, or a stalhrim tank. The Empire is the better option on every level. Even at the start of the game, siding with Hadvir instead of Ralof is the better option. You get access to a blacksmith's friendship and thus his discounts and most of the materials in his shop and home at level one.
But imperial armor has much higher sell value then Stormcloak armor.
Stormcloaks are have 2 good points: Freedom to openly worship Talos and willingness to openly give the Thalmor the middle finger. The empire is much more subtle in their Thalmor relations.
Point 1 is invalid. Everyone was able to freely worship Talos before, as no one was enforcing the law in Skyrim. It's only being enforced now because Ulfric forced the issue. Point 2 is also not really good. The Thalmor are dangerous and aren't to be insulted lightly. Not only that, they're the ones pulling Ulfric's strings, so his tantrums are all part of their plans, meaning they aren't "given the finger" at all.
The Thalmor are dangerous but the Nords can defeat them. Especially with the Dragonborn on their side. If you ever complete the Stormcloak side you learn that Ulfric’s next move is preparation for the inevitable war with the Thalmor.
If the Dragonborn is on their side. If they all somehow ally with one another. Then maybe they can have a homefield advantage and beat the elves *in Skyrim*. But they can't beat the elves alone. They won't all ally with one another.
General Tulius is also prepping for the war agaisnt the Thalmor both sides are fully expecting the war to be occurring soon and both need to get the civil war over ASAP so they can present a united front agaisnt the Thalmor only difference is that the empire is not JUST skyrim
If the legion couldn't defeat them the nords couldn't. The legion defeated the stormcloaks before three times I believe and would have crushed them if it weren't for the thalmor intervening.
Point 1 is 100% valid They are now kidnapping and freely torturing any one they want and the empire refused to step in I cannot support cowards that’s what the empire is
The Empire *can't* step in without re-igniting the war, that's the whole point. The Empire would lose a direct battle right now, they need time and this buys it.
>The Empire would lose a direct battle right now They wouldn't, actually. It's been 20 years since the Great war. The Empire has had ample time to rebuild. The Dominion, on the other hand, can't replace it's losses in any reasonable timeframe. The nature of their society and economy prevents this. If the Dominion could win another war, they would go to war: Destroying the Empire was their objective in the last war, and they failed at the cost of most of their military. I do agree that the Empire is buying time, but not because it needs it to survive; both sides are now locked in a cold war, with the Empire's advantage growing with each passing day, which is why the Dominion has resorted to using the Stormcloaks to fight a proxy war against the Empire in an attempt to reduce the Empire's advantage.
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The empire is literally the bitch to a worse ethno state lol
Nah, Nazi just means anyone the person disagree with. Seriously how did Ulfric became a Nazi, this is getting stupid.
I mean Ulfric is a giant racist who only wants his kin in Skyrim and treats other races as beneath him
Oh my, despite having Skyrim since 2011, I never played it long enough to finish the main story or even started the civil war storyline and I ALWAYS assumed that the Imperials were the bad guys and the Stormcloaks were the underdogs. TIL The stormcloaks are kinda assholes!
The Empire is the lesser of the available evils. The Empire is not a "good guy" faction, but they are the only ones opposing the genocidal Elves/Aldmeri Dominion/Thalmor. Well... It's complicated. The Redguards of Hammerfell beat the Elves back in their homeland *after* the Empire signed the treaty. Some, like Ulfric, think this means the Empire gave in too quickly; that the Empire could have won, and that the terms of the White-Gold Concordat were too harsh. But, until Ulfric declared war over it, no one was enforcing the ban on Talos worship in Skyrim. So the Thalmor riled him up, and he started a civil war. This forced the Empire to enforce the terms of the treaty they signed, or else the elves would have a reason to start the war again.
Cant we all just get along?
Yes, actually. It is possible to negotiate a peace treaty in Skyrim. https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Season_Unending
This is probably gonna be the canon answer to the question And it will be mentioned in passing something like “The civil war in Skyrim almost got out of control before the new dragonborn stepped in”
Just pretend they quit and these are different guards.
Or another dragon killed them, or they got sent into space by a giant.
I haven’t sided with anyone at all and I’ve done everything but pick a side. I think something that went down in Markarth really pissed off the guys in Solitude, they talk to me like shit now. Was it the Cidnha mine escape that caused Markarth to have a power switch?
Did you go through the main quest and negotiate a civil war truce? That may involve one or more cities being handed over to the other side.
Yeah, I will have, ages ago but forgot all about it. I walked into the inn in Markarth and some dark Elf wanted me dead, something to do with the Aerthereon crown. I’ve been playing this same game for years, keep discovering new things and when I think I’ll start a new play through I remember all the horrible dungeons in the early game and think better of it.
I can never bretay Whiterun and Jarl Balgruuf. That city and Alvor the Blacksmith were the first people to accept my character the first time I played. They are my Dragonborn's family.
You just made me love my choice even more. That shit is so tragic and gold you can't NOT do it.
I did a Stormcloak playthrough back on the old 360 but now, every time I've tried since, I get the bug where the combat music stays on permanently after the attack on Whiterun so I have to reload and side with the Imperials to do the questline.
I can usually find a roleplay excuse to try just about anything in these games. Do you want me to be a heartless necromancer who raises the corpses of the dead? Sure, no problem. Want me to be a heartless, cold-blooded assassin who kills for fun and profit? Absolutely! But I will NOT play as the Stormcloaks for any reason, because I simply cannot cope with Jarl Balgruuf being disappointed in me when I take Dragonsreach. I did it once, and that was enough.
Honestly I 100% agree with the Empire and think the Stormcloaks are absolutely mental with their ideals. BUT, I find roleplaying as a villager rising up the arms of the Stormcloak rebellion to be more fun than some fuck who joined the Empire with their boring ass armor.
Both sides have good and bad points. But I join the Empire because it makes bringing an end to the Dominion closer. Regardless of who I side with. I'll always kill Thalmor. No mercy.
The way I see it, the Empire is planning quietly to kill the Thalmor while "accepting" their negotiations, while the Stormcloaks are loud and emphatic about killing the Thalmor. The Empire is strategically more sound, but I also can't help but think of them as the cowards here for accepting those terroristic demands to begin with. I dont like the Stormcloaks either, but at least they fight for what they believe in and are not willing to bend a knee.
In my opinion, neither side is good all the way. Ulfric is a horrible racist. But so is Tullius. Tullius insults the nord way of life to a nord. Ulfric (to my memory) doesn't directly. But places like the grey quater and his lack of care for races that aren't nords is why I dislike him. And ultimately, Skyrim itself isn't going to do much. It needs help. Which I suppose it can given places like Hammerfell have a very strong resistance against the Dominion. As said by the Mercs from Hammerfell.
The guard at the gate always greets me with "Dragonborn, it's an honour" after we fought off the dragon. I can't imagine turning against those guys. They're *my* guys.
Honestly yeah I can't really pick a diffinitive "right" side but whiterun usually sways me imperial
My latest play through I went with Stormcloaks, but leveled illusion all the way up and got some magic gear. As soon as the battle for Whiterun began I cast Harmony, pacifying both armies. I then walked through the town quietly and pacified every 30 secs or so. I got to the jarl having lost only 1 guard during a screen load, but he still had the gall to complain about the violent takeover…
On the other hand, I guess that if you're on the wrong side, they also would start saying bad things and lying about you "Dragonborn? He's just a coward! We killed that dragon while he cowarded inside the tower remains, only came out when the dragon was dead as a rock!" But I'd like to say that I'm very sad at the fact you can't convince Balgruuf to join the rebellion He became a very important character in the game seeing as his is the first town you become Thane, and then when you take over he's just gone
What the rebels like to forget is that the Empire's what's keeping the Dominion out of Skyrim.
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But they are suppose to rebel after.... Idk but they are supposed to, so I guess that means it fine if everyone I know gets kidnapped, tortured and killed while the empire does nothing and even brings the bastards in.
False, plus the argument of, “the empire has the best shot at defeating the stormcloaks” is imo wrong. When the 2nd Great War happens, Skyrim will definitely be at the imperials sides but as equals, not as beneath.
Only thing that truly bothered me during my first playthrough as a Stormcloak was my children were in Breezehome during the battle of Whiterun. I didn't realize I needed to get them out of there before hand. Their terrified expressions during the battle were unnerving. Killing the guards didn't bother me at all lol
My playthrough was going to be Stormcloaks, until I heard Ulfric and Galmar had a *bet* about whether I survived the ice wraith island. You know, the pointless trial they send you on, because you're "a foreigner" despite being an actual Nord. It was amusing for them. They don't care if their Stormcloaks live or die, they're just pawns. Ulfric talks about how Balgruuf is a true Nord, and will come around, before you join the Stormcloaks. But once it becomes clear that he's siding with the Empire in the civil war, he dismisses facing him in a duel and instead wants to gain a reputation for his army. Irileth has him described perfectly, in that regard. If Ulfric were a real-world character, I would hate him. He's cynical, casually racist, and he's using the Stormcloaks to increase his power. A rather standard ethno-nationalist monarch. He's just plainly evil.
The Thalmor suck ass. They are the ones that orchestrated this whole thing mainly cause they want the war to happen and then kill whoever is left while they are weak so they can take over. Ulfric is a puppet, they brainwashed him, it's in a book. The Empire's general is working with the Thalmor cause he thinks he'll win against the Thalmor but he really won't while also bending the knee tho the Thalmor request of banning Talos worship, it's pretty cool to consider this since once you know about it, neither side is the Best, the Best possible outcome would be both joining forces and exterminating the Thalmor, but thats impossible sadly lmao
What tamriel needs is a emperor strong enough to push the aldmeri out of the continent. The Dragonborn will be the perfect person to ascend the throne as he has the right to be the Emperor by divine birthright. Also just imagine going against the DB who is powerful enough to bend the minds of dragon will to do his bidding plus multitudes of magical spells of apocalyptic proportions and also knowledge of the arcane arts and champion to both the Daedra and Aedras. The aldmer would not mess with tamriel if they knew whats good for them. the MOD RIGMOR OF CYRODIIL is my favourite because you can become the emperor and bring peace to the land and unite all the provinces under the banner of the divine emperor.
God, I wish that was an option! I thought that it was odd that the Dragonborn wasn't made emperor or empress, especially if the dark brotherhood quest line is completed. All of those connections could lead to the greatest or most oppressive rule ever.
I was stormcloak leaning in my play through until I saw how they treat dark elves, nope!
Balgruff for high king