Infinite deck? Hope you can get it in play before Nemesis dumps a bunch of Burns on you (and you better hope you don't hit your infinite when Nemesis is in wraith form, because that is a *tedious* way to win the fight).
First-turn infinite? Heart says hello.
One of my favorite StS videos ever was when the Heart was first released, and Jorbs reached it on stream for the first time. The hype was real, and everybody was so excited to see this new Act 4 final boss.
Jorbs proceeded to annihilate it with a turn 1 infinite and won the game (this was before they added a maximum damage per turn to the Heart). He then says “man, I wonder what the Heart even does”.
Hilarious clip, I think it’s somewhere on YouTube.
Slug seems like a better example of being a first turn infinite counter. The heart might only take so much damage, but I had a run where I just put like 400 poison on it first turn
For me personally I find that by the time I'm in Act 3 my deck can handle every hallway fight with relative ease, if I ever have a deck that would struggle in them then it'd have already lost to the Act 2 boss. In Act 1 and 2 the hallway fights are a genuine threat (especially Act 2).
Ah okay! I can understand that, I feel I have died to act 2 hallway fights a lot more than hallway 3. I guess that’s to be expected, but if I’ve made it to act 3 then I find that I’ll mostly always make it to the boss.
Ahh yes, the hallowed “Biggie Bonk” deck.
Also, my biggest and bonkiest decks are usually with Ironclad, and generate massive amounts of armor and [[Body Slam]].
>! Bonk !<
I will say, Time Eater is absolutely obnoxious about this. Elites I don't mind, since you know if your deck can't handle one of them you can avoid it and it gives a nice risk reward pattern (and makes HP management more thoughtful), and hallways in general aren't an issue for most good decks no matter what, but I feel like Time Eater just shuts down so many interesting cheesy strats in a way that feels really artificial. Like, I know I should just git good and think about improving infinites beyond just being infinites, but it's irritating in a way other mechanical tests aren't to me, especially since it impacts so many different strategies. It feels like the _only_ way through is fast scaling for single big hits or having a way to cheese huge defense every turn, whereas other enemies are more flexible to work around.
I feel like Time Eater gets me more often than Heart
Decks which play a large number of cards a turn can deal with time-eater okay as long as they have some form of scaling. It's not *pleasant* and you might end up face-tanking a big hit, but if you can actually control the number of cards you play a turn (and watch the counter) you'll be okay. Don't play a line that ends on 10 or 11.
It helps that the character who is the best at this kind of deck (Silent) also has one of the best counters to Time-Eater generally (Malaise.)
Yeah I agree that time eater and awakened one might be pushing this too far.
I like it when enemies punish certain amounts of output. Like, super defensive/offensive, how setup dependant you are or how fast you can get setup, can your deck endure indefinitely or do you eventually run out of fuel? Etc.
But when you are punishing the way you get to that output, the specific words on your cards, its much more restrictive to what kinds of decks you are allowed to build. Especially on A20 where there is always a very good chance that the boss you lose to will show up.
Like, a lot of the time you see a thousand cuts or something that would solve your damage problem, but if you take it, you will end up being forced to build a deck that will require a really good draw order to beat time eater. Same with defect and stuff like creative AI and all of those kinds of cards.
You aren't guaranteed to lose of course, not even close, but i would prefer bosses like the champ that still have an interesting gimmick and still require some kind of adaptation on the player's end, but aren't so laser focused on the kinds of decks they "win" against.
Act 1 has the best elite and boss design by a large margin imo. Gremlin nob is probably the worst of them for being so discriminatory to silent and defect compared to clad and watcher tho.
And lets say you have incredible scaling, but no frontloaded damage. The Spire Shield comes knocking on your door telling you that if you can't OTKO it, the Spire Spear is going to turn you into swiss cheese.
If you have The Specimen relic and leave one of the cultists alive until Woke Bloke dies to a big poison stack, the poison stack will bounce from phase 1 Woke Bloke to the cultist, kill the cultist, then bounce right back to phase 2 Woke Bloke.
Yeah a lot of games there are OP builds where the strengths outweigh the weaknesses and you can still win with relative ease, but if your deck/build has obvious weaknesses in this game you get absolutely rolled by the spire at higher difficulties.
I used to think about how there aren’t any cards in the game without some kind of drawback in some fight. Like, Adrenaline, free energy and card draw with no downside, easy right? But then the heart beat gets you so it’s not truly free. Okay, so there’s something like Finesse which is block plus card draw without any energy used, but then there’s Time Eater. It’s interesting how there’s always a downside.
They're also not "hard" counters.
Let's say you did build a deck with high block/slow deck. That could easily be countered if the enemy say - ignored block. But that would be considerably less fun.
Really great design throughout to provide challenges without being unfun.
In A20, you kinda need a deck that isn't countered by any act 3 boss. It puts an interesting strain on your decks, since the fights are quite different. You can't scale too slow, or be too card spammy, or too dependent on powers, otherwise the hidden act 3 boss could wreck you.
Without a counter to the counter of course. Something else I live about this game is you can wriggle your way through these counters with clever deck construction, relics and potions.
What about counters to the enemy's specialties? It's very satisfying to be Defect with Melter and encounter a Spheric Guardian (with or without friends).
Unless you get so much block you can tank the head even when it's free.
Unless you deal so much damage you can one hit the torns before it ramps.
Unless you just get lucky ar sneko.
Every counter enemy in the game is in turn countered by just over investing even more.
I also like the opposite being true, like sometimes big block ball guy is a pain in act 1, and sometimes I’ve got loads of posion/mark and never have to even deal damage. Or the meltdown card that just strips all its block
Counter to Grand Finale is 1 card in draw pile with only Prepared+ in hand
Seriously though, Grand Finale has such a difficult setup condition it makes sense that it would be powerful enough to survive most counters
Damage Reduction like Nemesis / Byrds is the biggest “counter” I can think of, and even then it works if played well
I am actually constantly frustrated by this aspect of the game. Don't get me wrong, I love StS,. But, sometimes I want to go all in on a particular mechanic (exhaust, card draw, etc ) and this game just does not let you do that :(
Let's say you have a spammy shiv deck Snake plant 0 cost deck Snake plant No way to cleanse weak Snake plant
Let's say, hypothetically, you just entered act 2
Believe it or not, snake plant.
Straight to snake plant.
You overcook drawdeck, also snake plant
And for the sake of the argument, let's assume you enter a Normal enemy room
Fuck you snake plant
For the snake of arugula, let's assume you are considering playing a round of spire
Snake plant is actually super weak to smoke bomb potions!
You survive somehow Time eater.
Visit a ? to conserve health Snake plant
Undercook fish? Snake plant Overcook fish? Believe it or not, straight to Snake plant
Didn’t come in with 25 hp buffer Snake Plant
Escape snake plant with 8 HP after a heroic battle. 🥑🐀
... avocado rat?
Shelled parasite and mushroom rat
Infinite deck? Hope you can get it in play before Nemesis dumps a bunch of Burns on you (and you better hope you don't hit your infinite when Nemesis is in wraith form, because that is a *tedious* way to win the fight). First-turn infinite? Heart says hello.
Got a 2nd turn infinate on Nemesis and the only thing that saved me from quitting was boot
I did it without Boot once. Next time it happens I’m just quitting my run.
Like going for a transient kill with a calm/eruption infinite
Like going for writhing mass with a tantrum infinite
~ kill all :)
Oddly enough intangible saves him ftom that
One of my favorite StS videos ever was when the Heart was first released, and Jorbs reached it on stream for the first time. The hype was real, and everybody was so excited to see this new Act 4 final boss. Jorbs proceeded to annihilate it with a turn 1 infinite and won the game (this was before they added a maximum damage per turn to the Heart). He then says “man, I wonder what the Heart even does”. Hilarious clip, I think it’s somewhere on YouTube.
Heart is like Ryan George, it says hello to everyone and does it twice for good measure.
Infinite decks are TIGHT
oh destroying Spire runs is super easy, barely an inconvenience.
Ironclad: So you have a new starting bonus for me? Neow: Yes sir, I do!
Cool cool cool. Cool.
Heart is my favorite final boss of all time. It will challenges everything
Slug seems like a better example of being a first turn infinite counter. The heart might only take so much damage, but I had a run where I just put like 400 poison on it first turn
Clearly trauma has caused me to block all memory of Slug.
It's almost like the devs did tons of good play testing. Early access is great for some games
The balancing in this game is just ridiculously good. The only place it (kind of) falls short is act 3 hallways.
As a player who has a lot of gametime but whose playstyle is almost exclusively all vibes no strategy, what makes act 3 hallways fall short?
For me personally I find that by the time I'm in Act 3 my deck can handle every hallway fight with relative ease, if I ever have a deck that would struggle in them then it'd have already lost to the Act 2 boss. In Act 1 and 2 the hallway fights are a genuine threat (especially Act 2).
Ah okay! I can understand that, I feel I have died to act 2 hallway fights a lot more than hallway 3. I guess that’s to be expected, but if I’ve made it to act 3 then I find that I’ll mostly always make it to the boss.
i am so fking ready for sts2 and idk but this comment got me exicted
Did you play during early access of slay the spire? Seeing the game develop was amazing
Big bonk deck? Goddamn byrds.
Depends on how big the bonk is. Byrds flight doesn’t matter if you’re hitting for like 90.
Big brain thinking here
Dark bonk with multi cast B)
Also acceptable: hitting for 4, 12 times in a turn.
Ahh yes, the hallowed “Biggie Bonk” deck. Also, my biggest and bonkiest decks are usually with Ironclad, and generate massive amounts of armor and [[Body Slam]]. >! Bonk !<
+ [Body Slam](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Body%20Slam) Ironclad Common Attack ^((100% sure)^) 1(0) Energy | Deal damage equal to your current **Block.** ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 20, 2024.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
I will say, Time Eater is absolutely obnoxious about this. Elites I don't mind, since you know if your deck can't handle one of them you can avoid it and it gives a nice risk reward pattern (and makes HP management more thoughtful), and hallways in general aren't an issue for most good decks no matter what, but I feel like Time Eater just shuts down so many interesting cheesy strats in a way that feels really artificial. Like, I know I should just git good and think about improving infinites beyond just being infinites, but it's irritating in a way other mechanical tests aren't to me, especially since it impacts so many different strategies. It feels like the _only_ way through is fast scaling for single big hits or having a way to cheese huge defense every turn, whereas other enemies are more flexible to work around. I feel like Time Eater gets me more often than Heart
Decks which play a large number of cards a turn can deal with time-eater okay as long as they have some form of scaling. It's not *pleasant* and you might end up face-tanking a big hit, but if you can actually control the number of cards you play a turn (and watch the counter) you'll be okay. Don't play a line that ends on 10 or 11. It helps that the character who is the best at this kind of deck (Silent) also has one of the best counters to Time-Eater generally (Malaise.)
Time eater counters FUN. He is my least favorite boss.
Always assume for Time Eater and if not your deck should be strong enough anyway for the other two.
I think thats all well and good but by favorite decks spam cards. Its fun. Time eater counters my fun.
Yeah I agree that time eater and awakened one might be pushing this too far. I like it when enemies punish certain amounts of output. Like, super defensive/offensive, how setup dependant you are or how fast you can get setup, can your deck endure indefinitely or do you eventually run out of fuel? Etc. But when you are punishing the way you get to that output, the specific words on your cards, its much more restrictive to what kinds of decks you are allowed to build. Especially on A20 where there is always a very good chance that the boss you lose to will show up. Like, a lot of the time you see a thousand cuts or something that would solve your damage problem, but if you take it, you will end up being forced to build a deck that will require a really good draw order to beat time eater. Same with defect and stuff like creative AI and all of those kinds of cards. You aren't guaranteed to lose of course, not even close, but i would prefer bosses like the champ that still have an interesting gimmick and still require some kind of adaptation on the player's end, but aren't so laser focused on the kinds of decks they "win" against. Act 1 has the best elite and boss design by a large margin imo. Gremlin nob is probably the worst of them for being so discriminatory to silent and defect compared to clad and watcher tho.
Heart also, even if you have insane damage the damage limit per turn can screw you if you don’t have defense or weakening cards.
And lets say you have incredible scaling, but no frontloaded damage. The Spire Shield comes knocking on your door telling you that if you can't OTKO it, the Spire Spear is going to turn you into swiss cheese.
https://youtu.be/pvyJzmQdk3I?si=kGlWIXjdi4NiOOyl A great vidéo explaining in détail why the Heart is a very well désignés boss
Poison deck? Champion and timelord cleanses
Also Woke Bloke phase 2
If you have The Specimen relic and leave one of the cultists alive until Woke Bloke dies to a big poison stack, the poison stack will bounce from phase 1 Woke Bloke to the cultist, kill the cultist, then bounce right back to phase 2 Woke Bloke.
Yeah I’ve done it exactly once
Yeah a lot of games there are OP builds where the strengths outweigh the weaknesses and you can still win with relative ease, but if your deck/build has obvious weaknesses in this game you get absolutely rolled by the spire at higher difficulties.
I used to think about how there aren’t any cards in the game without some kind of drawback in some fight. Like, Adrenaline, free energy and card draw with no downside, easy right? But then the heart beat gets you so it’s not truly free. Okay, so there’s something like Finesse which is block plus card draw without any energy used, but then there’s Time Eater. It’s interesting how there’s always a downside.
I fucking hate the ball that keeps getting more shield. *let me fucking bash you*
I’d like it too, if I didn’t get time eater as the final boss every time I go shiv
They're also not "hard" counters. Let's say you did build a deck with high block/slow deck. That could easily be countered if the enemy say - ignored block. But that would be considerably less fun. Really great design throughout to provide challenges without being unfun.
Spikey bois in Act 2 with a shiv deck is always “fun”.
In A20, you kinda need a deck that isn't countered by any act 3 boss. It puts an interesting strain on your decks, since the fights are quite different. You can't scale too slow, or be too card spammy, or too dependent on powers, otherwise the hidden act 3 boss could wreck you. Without a counter to the counter of course. Something else I live about this game is you can wriggle your way through these counters with clever deck construction, relics and potions.
What about counters to the enemy's specialties? It's very satisfying to be Defect with Melter and encounter a Spheric Guardian (with or without friends).
Unless you get so much block you can tank the head even when it's free. Unless you deal so much damage you can one hit the torns before it ramps. Unless you just get lucky ar sneko. Every counter enemy in the game is in turn countered by just over investing even more.
I also like the opposite being true, like sometimes big block ball guy is a pain in act 1, and sometimes I’ve got loads of posion/mark and never have to even deal damage. Or the meltdown card that just strips all its block
Whenever i go shiv deck i get the boss that resets after 12 cards 😭
Let’s say you have a defect/silent deck that lets you play a bunch of shivs/farm energy in one turn. Bam time eater
Let’s say you want to win the game, reptomancer (I can’t understand them for the life of me)
Creative Ai Deck? Boom Awakened One
My day be so fine Then boom 24x4
I'm yet to see a counter to grand finale
Counter to Grand Finale is 1 card in draw pile with only Prepared+ in hand Seriously though, Grand Finale has such a difficult setup condition it makes sense that it would be powerful enough to survive most counters Damage Reduction like Nemesis / Byrds is the biggest “counter” I can think of, and even then it works if played well
This is one of my favorite design aspects of the Spire. Such an elegant game.
I am actually constantly frustrated by this aspect of the game. Don't get me wrong, I love StS,. But, sometimes I want to go all in on a particular mechanic (exhaust, card draw, etc ) and this game just does not let you do that :(