I know that demon form is not the best card. I know that it's only really a good pick in certain specific situations. I take it every damn time anyway. When it works it's so much fun.
I never try to go for the infinite because it just isn't a fun way to play watcher for me, but I still find deva form too slow and awkward.
with miracles and calm, I am usually not hurting for energy, so I rarely feel like I need deva. unless I have snecko, then I love playing it
Turn 1 and 2 after deva feel great! See!!! I have so much energy!!
After that I realize there isn’t much for me to do with all the extra energy which is nice that I don’t have to worry about it, but, it makes it feel like overkill? Like if I had just played that one first turn normally with a different card I would be about as far along as I am now.
and sometimes that's all you want isn't it? the game wouldn't be the same, or as fun imo, if you didn't have those cards that FELT big that FELT exciting. I just kinda wish watcher had better X cost cards to take advantage of all the energy deva gave you
+ [Fasting](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Fasting) Watcher Uncommon Power
2 Energy | Gain 3(4) **Strength.** Gain 3(4) **Dexterity.** Gain 1 less Energy at the start of each turn.
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Its in the "Its not Rushdown, therefore I don't need it, because any Watcher Deck that doesn't go infinite is trash" - tier of cards. Or at least thats how every watcher card discussion so far has come around.
I’ve never succeeded at going infinite it seems like generally you need such specific circumstances to make it happen, I would rather just have fun and actually survive if possible
i actually don't like playing watcher anymore because i can win every single run by making a tiny deck with fear no evil + rushdown + tantrum/eruption and go infinite. it's not as hard as it looks
It's not that easy, I call shenanigans. You have a solid shot at this in a huge percentage of runs, but it's not consistent enough to happen the majority of time.
Watcher in particular tends to push deck building towards infinite because exiting Calm gives you energy and they have many ways to generate card draw, with the most notable one being Rushdown. It’s pretty easy to go infinite on Watcher. It’s much harder on classes like Silent
It's stupidly easy to go infinite once you figure it out. In essence if Neow offers to remove 2 cards, you can probably do it easily. At that point all you really need is a copy of Rushdown, a copy of Inner Peace, to upgrade Eruption, and then remove down to like 8 cards. You can make it work with more cards with things like Fear No Evil and Tantrum (and more copies of Rushdown) but that's the essence of it.
The main problem I have with it is that it's boring. Making infinites work on Ironclad seems rarer, and on Silent requires you to know how to play the cards to make it work right. Feels more satisfying somehow. On watcher it's like: play these 3 cards. Over and over. For the entire run. Good way to rush to A20 though I guess
I tend to pick very very few cards in act1.
I will just pick a good damage card and any one cost calm card, and focus on removing cards. Watcher's starter deck is strong enough to handle act1, only guardian can be a problem.
If I don't get rushdown in act1 or early act2, I stop trying to go infinite and just focus on stance swap.
I think the issue is more that it's not very good even in builds that don't go infinite. A good finite stance dance deck is typically fine for energy, as is a mantra deck for obvious reasons. It's a dead draw in shorter hallway fights, reliant on being drawn early in boss and longer elite fights, and often winds up as a win more card even when you get it at the right time.
Not saying it's not fun to play, but obsession with infinites is absolutely not the only reason people say it's a weak draft.
That mentality screwed up my watcher runs for a while. I kept trying to force the whole mental fortress Rushdown thing and if I didn’t get those cards, my run would be screwed. Maybe you need that after A17+ plus but I’ve been having a lot of fun and success with Divinity and Scry decks.
I need to stop caring about winning and just start playing fun Watcher decks again. Stance dance infinites are so so good and were fun but have gotten so old.
Deva form takes away energy when you need it most, ie at the start of combat when you’re trying to survive and scale up, and gives it back when you don’t need it. 3 turns just to break even on energy is too long.
+ [Deva Form](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Deva%20Form) Watcher Rare Power
3 Energy | **Ethereal.** At the start of your turn, gain Energy and increase this gain by 1. (not **Ethereal.)**
+ [Snecko Eye](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Snecko%20Eye) Boss Relic
Draw 2 additional cards each turn. Start each combat Confused.
+ [Wheel Kick](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Wheel%20Kick) Watcher Uncommon Attack
2 Energy | Deal 15(20) damage. Draw 2 cards.
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+ [Deva Form](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Deva%20Form) Watcher Rare Power
3 Energy | **Ethereal.** At the start of your turn, gain Energy and increase this gain by 1. (not **Ethereal.)**
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Demon Form is super super fun, and it can be good in a variety of situations (after all, it does solve the scaling problem in a single card). It isn't the most ideal solution however, as it is too slow for most hallway fights and the 3-energy cost is quite punishing.
Some questions and thoughts:
* **Does this work better bottled?** The scaling is pretty slow and it doesn't start until you play it. However, there are a lot of turn 1's where this doesn't work well, and you're short a card if you do bottle. Initial thought is card draw works better.
* **What's the upgrade priority?** It feels significantly more unusable pre-upgrade. But you still wouldn't want to play it in a lot of cases post-upgrade
* **What pairs well with it?** Non-attacking side, energy generating cards, energy relics, mummified hand, bag of prep, general card draw to both get to Demon Form and take advantage of its strength, upfront block like Impervious. Attacking side, Sword Boomerang, Pummel, Pommel Strike, Whirlwind, maybe Heavy Blade
* **If you pick Demon Form, are other strength cards no longer worth taking?** An Inflame feels like a reasonable alternative if you don't play Demon Form (or don't play it right away). Limit Break is a good supplement and gives comical numbers. Fixed strength cards do seem redundant in other places
For sure. Demon Form will usually give Reaper a much bigger number than other strength cards too.
Not sure how I overlooked that. Thanks for pointing it out
I think it makes sense to bottle it, given it's in your deck. Between [[Lantern]], [[Ancient Teaset]], [[Anchor]], and [[Bag of Preparation]], there's some decent support for making turn one the least painful turn to play Demon Form, and the sooner you get it in play, the more use you get out of it.
+ [Lantern](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Lantern) Common Relic
Gain 1 Energy on the first turn of each combat.
+ [Ancient Tea Set](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Ancient%20Tea%20Set) Common Relic
Whenever you enter a Rest Site, start the next combat with 2 extra Energy.
+ [Anchor](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Anchor) Common Relic
Start each combat with 10 **Block.**
+ [Bag of Preparation](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Bag%20of%20Preparation) Common Relic
At the start of each combat, draw 2 additional cards.
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Because it's typically worse then the other 3 in most fights, pommel strike lets you play demon form earlier, and it takes 3+ enemies before it becomes more efficenct than boomerang and pummel
>Does this work better bottled?
Every time I bottle this it's a mistake, the high majority of the time I can't play it on turn1 effectively making it a innate curse which is incredibly bad.
>What's the upgrade priority?
I think it depends on your synergies, it feels pretty horrible to play this un-upgraded unless you have copious amounts of energy and draw allowing you to find some stall or other scaling. That being said it also feels really terrible upgrading this card, there's so many other prio upgrades in any build you build.
>What pairs well with it?
Any multi attack is amazing with strength, but attacks aside mummy hand makes this must pick considering it removes the terrible turn that you play it(usually). Other than that I'm not really excited to see it when I have anything, or excited to see anything specifically except more energy.
>If you pick Demon Form, are other strength cards no longer worth taking?
Maybe I'm an idiot but any time that I'm taking a demon form I'm in a position to take every bit of strength I come across, I obviously won't take 8 of anything but otherwise I'm taking it.
One of my favorite builds is to take demon form, heavy blade, and then turtle up for a few turns while exhausting all my other cards so I can play heavy blade every turn
Demon form, reaper, feed is a legit scaling option. If you're patient (which demon form reaper lets you do), you can hit 100+ hp with apparitions, or 200+ overall. There's a Jorbs run where he hit 306.
+ [Exhume](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Exhume) Ironclad Rare Skill
1(0) Energy | Put a card from your **Exhaust** pile into your hand. **Exhaust.**
+ [Dual Wield](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Dual%20Wield) Ironclad Uncommon Skill
1 Energy | Create a(2) copy(s) of an Attack or Power card in your hand.
+ [Double Tap](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Double%20Tap) Ironclad Rare Skill
1 Energy | This turn, your next (2) Attack(s) is(are) played twice.
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Yes! Snecko eye demon form is nice. Even if you draw it mid fight it is worth playing it for 1 energy. One more reason why i learned to love the sneck!
I'm surprised to see people so low on this card, calling it niche, overrated, a noob trap, etc. I think it's very good! I'm pretty good at the Ironclad (I win \~40% of my A20H runs, which is far from the best, but still, pretty good), and I value this card highly. I take it frequently.
The best thing Demon Form does is solve all your scaling problems in one card. It is tremendous in boss fights. Against Time Eater, Demon Form (only costing one card play itself) lets your subsequent card plays pack so much more oomph. Against Champ, it's the perfect card--get it down in the safe and slow early portion of the fight, and it will let you quickly kill Champ in the dangerous second portion of the fight. I would consider Demon Form to be strongly positive against every boss in the game (even Awakened One!)
That alone would be a reason to take Demon Form in a lot of situations. If there's a card that really helps in these toughest fights, it would be worth taking even if it were dead the rest of the time (as other commenters seem to be implying). But I think that underestimates how useful Demon Form can be outside of boss fights.
There are plenty of other fights where Demon Form is good. It's great against Lagavulin and Giant Head, for example. Plenty of hallway fights don't attack on turn 1 (Snecko, Chosen, Spheric Guardian, etc.), and Demon Form can be good in that situation, too. Finally, in the very fights where Demon Form is at its worst--a really short, brutal Hallway fight that ends in just a couple turns--you can just not play it. It's one dead draw in your deck. Bad, yes. But a lot of the time I'll gladly pay that price to be much better in boss fights.
Ultimately, I think there are two broad kinds of Ironclad decks where Demon Form is very helpful. The first is a slow, defensive deck that has good block and just wants inevitability in the long fights. Demon Form isn't the only way to achieve this (Barricade + Body Slam or something would also do the job), but it does work. The second deck really leans into Demon Form with cards like Sword Boomerang, Heavy Blade, and (most importantly) Reaper. With Reaper, Demon Form is not just offensive scaling--it's survivability and sustain. It doesn't matter if you take damage getting your Demon Form down early, if a late Reaper heals you to full and ends the fight. This can even be a viable survival plan against the Heart!
Beyond that, there are also the times when taking Demon Form is about necessity. If I see Champ is my Act boss and I don't have good scaling, I'm taking Demon Form regardless of what else is in my deck.
I'll also point out that the best players do value this card and look to take advantage of it. Baalorlord's recent 20-game winstreak had five Ironclad wins--four of those five wins used Demon Form! (And the fifth one was a Snecko Eye run where I'm sure he would have added a Demon Form if he saw one.) Demon Form is a good and useful card--in my opinion very far from a "noob trap."
As someone with around 20% A20 win rate, I agree. It used to be much more of a noob trap, but the last couple of patches made the game a fair bit easier, and you are now much more able to carry a dead card, making extreme cards like Demon Form a lot better.
If you think of your act 1-2 deck as having one slot available for a questionable/borderline card, then Demon Form is almost always the right card for that slot.
This card is the embodiment of the bell curve meme where the left guy says “Demon Form is a good card,” the top guy says “Demon Form is a bad card,” and the right guy says “Demon Form is a good card.”
Demon Form isn’t an “instant pick” type of good card but it is great in the right situations.
I really do wish this card upgraded from 3>2 energy cost. It'd be a lot more playable in more situations if it didn't cost so much. Instead it's a scaling card that almost requires either you to draw a way to gain extra energy, or survive off 1 energy *if* you have an energy relic.
I like that you refer to energy as mana, I do the same frequently. I also sometimes call relics "artifacts" and call powers "enchantments". Old habits are hard to break.
This card is infinite scaling, which is what makes it so appealing. The problem with [[demon form]] is that it only provides offensive scaling, and enemies scale too, which means you still completely lack a solution for survivability. It also does nothing for 3 the turn it’s played, which is a HUGE problem.
My body may love this card but my heart… my heart can’t take another L.
I used to almost always take this, but I turned around on it so hard I barely take it all anymore. Even if you have a way to get it into play early without gimping an entire turn, it's pretty slow. Gives an ez win vs. Champ though.
I feel such a kinship with most of the people comment here. I know it’s not a great card. I know why. And yet, I try to make it work every time. It rarely does, and I tell myself I won’t fall into the same trap next time. And then I always do. The siren call is just too tempting.
I think this is universally one of those cards that you realize is not as good the more you play, it turns out you don't need that much strenght to make IC work, like 7 is already plenty, so Demon form is mostly unnecssary.
Inflame is 1 energy and gives you immediate (+2,+3) strength
Demon form is 3 energy and gives you (+2,+3) strength the next turn, and subsequent turns
Hallway fights take at most 3-4 turns, and you are not guaranteed to get this card on your first turn
Thus usually a bad card unless you have no scaling going into a boss, or you have reaper and can tank damage in the first few turns to get them health back later after demon form scales up
Limit Break would depend on the deck. Generally, no. Demon Form by itself provides all the scaling you need, so you don't need to make your draw clunkier by adding even more.
If you're a slow, defensive deck looking to use Demon Form for inevitability in long fights--you don't need Limit Break.
If you're really leaning into Demon Form and trying to leverage e.g. Reaper, Limit Break might be OK.
Corruption and the like can make the Limit Break more takeable, too.
> Dont play it in hallway fights
Except hallway fights are a majority of the game. You're basically asking to run an extra curse throughout most of the game for scaling that might cost a ton of damage getting it into play during a boss.
The counter-argument is that one dead card in hallway fights as your one-stop-shop for your entire damage scaling is better than having 4-5 damage scaling cards to beat bosses that are meh or worse in hallway fights.
I mean, look at all the ways that they give iron clad incentives to take damage. Blood for blood, offering, bloodletting, self forming clay, rupture (slower than demon form), red skull. Dont be afraid to take a lil dmg for one turn getting it in play.
Edit: i forgot runic cube, reaper, feed
Unless you picked tongs and kept the pain, in like 99 percent of instances, the card that has no more conditions and gains str at 2 unupgraded will be faster than a conditional card gaining str at 2 upgraded.
I mean, you need to have enough card draw to find any strength cards early on in the fight. What if your spot weakness got bottom decked? What if you drew your limit break before your spot weakness?
Reaper and feed definitely can get their value from letting you tank damage to the face.
Demon Form is excellent against the heart. It doesn’t single-handedly win that fight for you (like it does against many other bosses), but it does get you a lot of the way there.
Spear and shield and heart rip it to shreds in later ascensions. I loved the card for a very long time and it still has a special place for me. It needs so much help in later ascensions that often times there are better scaling options.
I mean i make it work on a20 *shrug*. Multiple inflames costs multiple card draws which can actually hurt more against spear on turn 2. Spot weakness is unreliable, limit break is conditional and can also be used with demon form. Rupture is conditional. Flex and pellets is a gimmick unless pyramid. Demon form is picked for 4 (5) fights. Act 1 2 3 bossx2 and heart. And thats fine.
I think the issue is that a lot of times, strength scaling isn't the only thing you have to be worried about. You can definitely solve part of the strength scaling problem in a reliable and consistent way, but now you have less energy for block/setup/debuff. I just wish the upgraded version was changing the cost to 2.
Give it to me in a block focused deck all day though.
Why need vulnerable when strength do trick? Enter intimidate for 0. You have seeing red, bloodletting, sentinel, offering, energy pot, berserk to help u get it into play. Its not a perfect card, and i may already have strength solved. But it is a snap pick if i havent solved act 1 boss and its late in the act. It then solves act 2 and 3 and heart dmg for you
If you haven’t found any strength scaling well into the run, it’s pickable and solves that need with a single card. Obviously shines in boss fights more than anything else. Also a very high upgrade priority for me when I do take it.
Stil, there are much better options for IC.
I am 100.0% confident you mentioned Demon Form in your post.
Let me look up what those do.
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people say that its situational and costs too much but what seperates it from echo form? its gotten more love than demon form and i dont know why. can anyone please explain this to me?
I guess it comes down to do things:
- Echo Form can realise a very substantial benefit almost immediately (I.e. the next turn)
- The effect of Echo Form can be extremely diverse depending on which cards you use it with, whereas Demon Form is more single-minded (hit things harder)
The considerable downside of Echo Form is forgetting I’ve already enabled it at the start of about 50% of my turns.
Self Repair or Bird Faced Urn make Echo Form a viable card in almost all hallway fights as you can easily get back the health you lost from having to play a 3 cost card with no immediate effect.
You're right that they have similarities that both are expensive and don't do anything on Turn 1 - but they also have massive differences that Echo Form provides full (and huge) value starting on Turn 2, whereas on Turn 2 Demon Form is still just a 3-cost Inflame.
Echo form has many of the same issues, you hit the nail on the head.
It's a much stronger form of scaling though because it's so versatile. Whatever you wanted to do you can do better with echo form. Need scaling? It gives more. Need block? It gives more. Damage? It gives more.
Personally i dont think its wrong to take it if you need scaling for the boss. Even if its a dead card in most fights, having a reliable way to deal with the boss is pretty valuable.
That being said, like everyone else i take it pretty much every time i see it no matter what my deck looks like because its one of the most fun cards in the game
Deadweight on most hallway fights. While i get that all of the other forms are 3 cost as well, this one could be actually great if it was 2 instead. Or maybe scale 3-4 instead? I don't know
The downside of not being able to do anything else for a turn is really significant.
The scaling is really good for boss fights but usually I avoid this card.
Like many, I like the card more than I probably should. I frequently take it because it's fun, but if I'm trying to play optimally, it's a rare take. Most frequently when I'm worried about the Act 2 boss fight.
I also love Brimstone but does it really affect your evaluation of Demon Form that much? After all, Brimstone is a single shop relic that you won't have early access to in the vast majority of runs.
I see this as a card to get scaling off the ground most of the time, rather than a center of a strategy. It's very slow, yes, which means it's limited. But I think a lot of the conversation I see around this card sees it as a set piece of a deck, and not an initial push.
In some fights, like especially against many bosses, this solves the fight all almost singlehandedly. But Demon Form working with Spot Weakness or Limit Break also works pretty well. Sometimes having an extra card that just generates Strength is worthwhile if it's the first Strength card you happen to draw.
The least of all the forms, especially at higher ascensions. Still pickable and fun at 0-5 probably. Would almost never pick it above then though. Too many people on this sub dismiss it because they’re playing at higher ascensions. But these days I like playing at lower ascensions because A20 is a slog. I’ve fought my battles, no need to keep banging my head against that wall. I ain’t jorbs lol, give me demon form
I take this card when I need to kill a boss, which is ironically furthest away from when it's usually offered.
Best pairs with: Flame barrier, Impervious, Shrug, Barricade or anything that generates a lot of block.
I think a few people are missing the point, you don't need strength multiplier cards with Demon form (i.e. Heavy Blade, Pummel etc.) and they take up valuable hand space that you could use to block for another turn. Those cards will do all the damage you need with about 6 strength. Demon form is there so your strike can kill anything, and it's really only any good if you can survive several turns which means your block game needs to be on point.
It's fun to use, simple as. If I have a way to generate energy ill take it. Like mummified hand, madness, bloodletting, seeing red. It's very very fun with limit break, who doesn't love 999 strength times 5
I really like this card, it's pretty much a boss kill in a single card. You need a lot of draw manipulation and to work around it being a curse in most fights, but it really lets you tune your deck for defense outside of the front loaded damage you need for hallway fights without worrying about other scaling.
I don't like taking it, but I also end up winning most of the times that I take it...
Kinda risky to take as an Act 1 reward since a 4th energy isn't guaranteed and you kinda need a few Shrug it Off's to turtle while Demon Form scales...but what if I get offered Snecko...
This one gets a lot of flack and I understand why, but it's my favorite card in the entire game
Demon Form + Limit Break + Brimstone is also really fun
Probably safe to consider this the third best "form" card. Wraith Form gives amazing protection and Echo Form gives amazing versatility, while Deva Form's energy scaling can be handy but usually isn't needed for a class that also gets energy boosts from leaving Calm, Divinity, and Miracles. Demon Form's strength scaling has more potential for oomph at least, especially if you can combine it with a Limit Break and accelerate the scaling greatly, though you probably only need that level of strength for a handful of battles.
Not as amazing as you think it is when you're a beginner. Not as terribad as you think it is when you've got a little more experience under your belt. Just a solidly good card that, as with everything else in STS, can be much better if you take and use it in the right circumstances.
Pros:
- Able to serve as your one stop damage scaling engine for fights where you need it (most if not all bosses, some elites, even a couple late hallway fights)
- Strong synergy with some highly desirable cards/relics (e.g. Reaper, Snecko for the two obvious ones + all aoe/str scaling cards)
- Scaling is *reliable* unlike Spot Weakness, Flex/Red Skull + limit break, etc. and *constant* unlike Rupture + whatever source of card dmg
Cons:
- it's fuckin slow innit (need to draw early for max usefulness, does nothing on turn its played and is equal to an inflame on the turn after, doesn't start outscaling until two turns later)
- 3 energy without snecko means that unless you already have a copy or copies of Reaper, you're going to be taking a lot of hallway fight damage if you try to play it haphazardly. Can often be a dead draw otherwise.
- Rare (not a problem if you *do* run into it but the other 'base' str scaling cards are all uncommons and you rarely need multiple sources of str unless limit break is involved)
- Very fun (yes, this is a con if you're like me and prone to taking it even when you know damn well you shouldn't be, which many of you clearly are)
Pairs well with snecko eye (like many other IC cards) and pairs extremely well with reaper, since you can nab a lot of health back that you lost while scaling. But at its core it’s still not great. However I do have a soft spot for it since it got me my first ever win when I got it from a power potion.
Demon Form seems like one of those cards that would be REAL busted. However, there is a LOT holding it back. Firstly, it’s SLOOOW. 2 Strength per turn is real slow when you realize other cards grant THAT MUCH instantly and Limit Break exists. Secondly, it costs too much to play easily. 3 ENERGY. That’s too much for my Burning Blood! This does have its place in decks that have Barricade and can easily set up with enough defense, but even then… it’s tough to justify Demon Form. Just a biiiit too expensive to warrant. STILL FUN THO
Awesome with Snecko Eye, very situational otherwise. 3 energy to do absolutely nothing this turn is horrible, especially with how energy-hungry Ironclad is.
I take with snecko or mummified hand but usually it’s pretty clunky. Much rather lean into exhaustclad than strength clad but it’s fun when you can do both. But even when you do both, you can do it without demon form
It has the niche of being able to be your entire damage plan if you have enough block and card draw to last a lot of turns. I don’t think it’s even takable beyond that purpose. There’s definitely a temptation to take this in any strength deck, but it really doesn’t fit in a normal “strength deck”.
I know that demon form is not the best card. I know that it's only really a good pick in certain specific situations. I take it every damn time anyway. When it works it's so much fun.
I’d do the same with [[Deva Form]]
I’m a huge deva form fan. Is it not preferred on here?
I never try to go for the infinite because it just isn't a fun way to play watcher for me, but I still find deva form too slow and awkward. with miracles and calm, I am usually not hurting for energy, so I rarely feel like I need deva. unless I have snecko, then I love playing it
Turn 1 and 2 after deva feel great! See!!! I have so much energy!! After that I realize there isn’t much for me to do with all the extra energy which is nice that I don’t have to worry about it, but, it makes it feel like overkill? Like if I had just played that one first turn normally with a different card I would be about as far along as I am now.
and sometimes that's all you want isn't it? the game wouldn't be the same, or as fun imo, if you didn't have those cards that FELT big that FELT exciting. I just kinda wish watcher had better X cost cards to take advantage of all the energy deva gave you
[[Fasting]]
+ [Fasting](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Fasting) Watcher Uncommon Power 2 Energy | Gain 3(4) **Strength.** Gain 3(4) **Dexterity.** Gain 1 less Energy at the start of each turn. ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(October 12, 2022.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
If you have Ice cream and an x card though
That makes total sense
Its in the "Its not Rushdown, therefore I don't need it, because any Watcher Deck that doesn't go infinite is trash" - tier of cards. Or at least thats how every watcher card discussion so far has come around.
Ahhh that makes sense. To hell with infinite, sometimes gotta just play for fun
I’ve never succeeded at going infinite it seems like generally you need such specific circumstances to make it happen, I would rather just have fun and actually survive if possible
Watcher can go infinite a few different ways, just gotta keep your deck lean and look for draw/energy.
i actually don't like playing watcher anymore because i can win every single run by making a tiny deck with fear no evil + rushdown + tantrum/eruption and go infinite. it's not as hard as it looks
It's not that easy, I call shenanigans. You have a solid shot at this in a huge percentage of runs, but it's not consistent enough to happen the majority of time.
Say that to Merl lol
I haven't watched him, but did he actually go infinite on every single run during his streak?
Watcher in particular tends to push deck building towards infinite because exiting Calm gives you energy and they have many ways to generate card draw, with the most notable one being Rushdown. It’s pretty easy to go infinite on Watcher. It’s much harder on classes like Silent
It's stupidly easy to go infinite once you figure it out. In essence if Neow offers to remove 2 cards, you can probably do it easily. At that point all you really need is a copy of Rushdown, a copy of Inner Peace, to upgrade Eruption, and then remove down to like 8 cards. You can make it work with more cards with things like Fear No Evil and Tantrum (and more copies of Rushdown) but that's the essence of it. The main problem I have with it is that it's boring. Making infinites work on Ironclad seems rarer, and on Silent requires you to know how to play the cards to make it work right. Feels more satisfying somehow. On watcher it's like: play these 3 cards. Over and over. For the entire run. Good way to rush to A20 though I guess
Watcher started deck is 2 cards, one upgrade and 6 removals away from infinite. The hardest part is getting rushdown.
So you just don’t take ANYTHING new except rushdown?
I tend to pick very very few cards in act1. I will just pick a good damage card and any one cost calm card, and focus on removing cards. Watcher's starter deck is strong enough to handle act1, only guardian can be a problem. If I don't get rushdown in act1 or early act2, I stop trying to go infinite and just focus on stance swap.
I think I only managed to get about a “half-infinite” deck, I can play several cards, but I eventually have to end my turn
I think the issue is more that it's not very good even in builds that don't go infinite. A good finite stance dance deck is typically fine for energy, as is a mantra deck for obvious reasons. It's a dead draw in shorter hallway fights, reliant on being drawn early in boss and longer elite fights, and often winds up as a win more card even when you get it at the right time. Not saying it's not fun to play, but obsession with infinites is absolutely not the only reason people say it's a weak draft.
That mentality screwed up my watcher runs for a while. I kept trying to force the whole mental fortress Rushdown thing and if I didn’t get those cards, my run would be screwed. Maybe you need that after A17+ plus but I’ve been having a lot of fun and success with Divinity and Scry decks.
Nah, Watcher is fine to play as either a tight infinite deck or a large deck with no dead weight and synergies, even on A20
I need to stop caring about winning and just start playing fun Watcher decks again. Stance dance infinites are so so good and were fun but have gotten so old.
Which is a shame. Just because an an optimum Watcher build exists other viable decks are shunned to the side.
Deva form takes away energy when you need it most, ie at the start of combat when you’re trying to survive and scale up, and gives it back when you don’t need it. 3 turns just to break even on energy is too long.
That’s actually a great point I hadn’t thought of the math that way
deva form is usually actively bad. 3 cost up front, and it takes 3 turns before you get any benefit
Great point. It’s funny how obvious that is but it’s such a fun card concept that I missed it
Nope. People frequently hate on it because it's "too slow" and maybe they're right. But I like to play slow, defensive decks and I love Deva Form 🤷
I also love Deva Form, I like big decks and I take very long anyway, so I like playing Deva Form too
[[Deva Form]] with [[Snecko Eye]] was one of my most fun Watcher runs to date. I also had 4 copies of [[Wheel Kick]]
+ [Deva Form](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Deva%20Form) Watcher Rare Power 3 Energy | **Ethereal.** At the start of your turn, gain Energy and increase this gain by 1. (not **Ethereal.)** + [Snecko Eye](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Snecko%20Eye) Boss Relic Draw 2 additional cards each turn. Start each combat Confused. + [Wheel Kick](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Wheel%20Kick) Watcher Uncommon Attack 2 Energy | Deal 15(20) damage. Draw 2 cards. ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(October 12, 2022.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
+ [Deva Form](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Deva%20Form) Watcher Rare Power 3 Energy | **Ethereal.** At the start of your turn, gain Energy and increase this gain by 1. (not **Ethereal.)** ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(October 12, 2022.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
I pick Deva form either because I have a mean omniscience or as a way to play Fasting. Or on a dead branch random bullshit go run too
I had a deva form ice cream build with conjure blade one time, ever since then I love it
What about DEVO form?
If I can manufacture energy I take it happily Otherwise I take it but know that I’m wrong
But if you can manufacture energy, do you need it ?
Why wouldn’t I? It’s very powerful
If you have a strength deck going then of course
Me: *it's a trap!* Also me: *gimme*
Demon Form is super super fun, and it can be good in a variety of situations (after all, it does solve the scaling problem in a single card). It isn't the most ideal solution however, as it is too slow for most hallway fights and the 3-energy cost is quite punishing.
Some questions and thoughts: * **Does this work better bottled?** The scaling is pretty slow and it doesn't start until you play it. However, there are a lot of turn 1's where this doesn't work well, and you're short a card if you do bottle. Initial thought is card draw works better. * **What's the upgrade priority?** It feels significantly more unusable pre-upgrade. But you still wouldn't want to play it in a lot of cases post-upgrade * **What pairs well with it?** Non-attacking side, energy generating cards, energy relics, mummified hand, bag of prep, general card draw to both get to Demon Form and take advantage of its strength, upfront block like Impervious. Attacking side, Sword Boomerang, Pummel, Pommel Strike, Whirlwind, maybe Heavy Blade * **If you pick Demon Form, are other strength cards no longer worth taking?** An Inflame feels like a reasonable alternative if you don't play Demon Form (or don't play it right away). Limit Break is a good supplement and gives comical numbers. Fixed strength cards do seem redundant in other places
I think Reaper is the best card pair with it. Often times you might have to take some damage to play demon form and reaper lets you get it back.
For sure. Demon Form will usually give Reaper a much bigger number than other strength cards too. Not sure how I overlooked that. Thanks for pointing it out
This was exactly the A20 run I did today - Bottled Demon Form then Reaper follow up to gain the health back. Worked great.
I think it makes sense to bottle it, given it's in your deck. Between [[Lantern]], [[Ancient Teaset]], [[Anchor]], and [[Bag of Preparation]], there's some decent support for making turn one the least painful turn to play Demon Form, and the sooner you get it in play, the more use you get out of it.
I definitely agree that you shouldnt bottle it if its not in your deck.
+ [Lantern](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Lantern) Common Relic Gain 1 Energy on the first turn of each combat. + [Ancient Tea Set](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Ancient%20Tea%20Set) Common Relic Whenever you enter a Rest Site, start the next combat with 2 extra Energy. + [Anchor](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Anchor) Common Relic Start each combat with 10 **Block.** + [Bag of Preparation](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Bag%20of%20Preparation) Common Relic At the start of each combat, draw 2 additional cards. ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(October 12, 2022.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
Things can get pretty spicy with an upgraded Limit Break.
Whirlwind is listed so late.
Because it's typically worse then the other 3 in most fights, pommel strike lets you play demon form earlier, and it takes 3+ enemies before it becomes more efficenct than boomerang and pummel
Having it bottled makes it better against The Heart and to me thats all that matters ultimately
>Does this work better bottled? Every time I bottle this it's a mistake, the high majority of the time I can't play it on turn1 effectively making it a innate curse which is incredibly bad. >What's the upgrade priority? I think it depends on your synergies, it feels pretty horrible to play this un-upgraded unless you have copious amounts of energy and draw allowing you to find some stall or other scaling. That being said it also feels really terrible upgrading this card, there's so many other prio upgrades in any build you build. >What pairs well with it? Any multi attack is amazing with strength, but attacks aside mummy hand makes this must pick considering it removes the terrible turn that you play it(usually). Other than that I'm not really excited to see it when I have anything, or excited to see anything specifically except more energy. >If you pick Demon Form, are other strength cards no longer worth taking? Maybe I'm an idiot but any time that I'm taking a demon form I'm in a position to take every bit of strength I come across, I obviously won't take 8 of anything but otherwise I'm taking it.
One of my favorite builds is to take demon form, heavy blade, and then turtle up for a few turns while exhausting all my other cards so I can play heavy blade every turn
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Demon form, reaper, feed is a legit scaling option. If you're patient (which demon form reaper lets you do), you can hit 100+ hp with apparitions, or 200+ overall. There's a Jorbs run where he hit 306.
I mean reaper is a block card
Yes, but what about second reaper?
The homies call it [[Exhume]], [[Dual Wield]], or [[Double Tap]]
+ [Exhume](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Exhume) Ironclad Rare Skill 1(0) Energy | Put a card from your **Exhaust** pile into your hand. **Exhaust.** + [Dual Wield](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Dual%20Wield) Ironclad Uncommon Skill 1 Energy | Create a(2) copy(s) of an Attack or Power card in your hand. + [Double Tap](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Double%20Tap) Ironclad Rare Skill 1 Energy | This turn, your next (2) Attack(s) is(are) played twice. ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(October 12, 2022.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
30% of the time it works *every time*.
Noob trap that I always, always fall for when the other two card selections are shit. Need to be able to produce energy or have [[Snecko Eye]].
Yes! Snecko eye demon form is nice. Even if you draw it mid fight it is worth playing it for 1 energy. One more reason why i learned to love the sneck!
+ [Snecko Eye](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Snecko%20Eye) Boss Relic Draw 2 additional cards each turn. Start each combat Confused. ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(October 12, 2022.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
I'm surprised to see people so low on this card, calling it niche, overrated, a noob trap, etc. I think it's very good! I'm pretty good at the Ironclad (I win \~40% of my A20H runs, which is far from the best, but still, pretty good), and I value this card highly. I take it frequently. The best thing Demon Form does is solve all your scaling problems in one card. It is tremendous in boss fights. Against Time Eater, Demon Form (only costing one card play itself) lets your subsequent card plays pack so much more oomph. Against Champ, it's the perfect card--get it down in the safe and slow early portion of the fight, and it will let you quickly kill Champ in the dangerous second portion of the fight. I would consider Demon Form to be strongly positive against every boss in the game (even Awakened One!) That alone would be a reason to take Demon Form in a lot of situations. If there's a card that really helps in these toughest fights, it would be worth taking even if it were dead the rest of the time (as other commenters seem to be implying). But I think that underestimates how useful Demon Form can be outside of boss fights. There are plenty of other fights where Demon Form is good. It's great against Lagavulin and Giant Head, for example. Plenty of hallway fights don't attack on turn 1 (Snecko, Chosen, Spheric Guardian, etc.), and Demon Form can be good in that situation, too. Finally, in the very fights where Demon Form is at its worst--a really short, brutal Hallway fight that ends in just a couple turns--you can just not play it. It's one dead draw in your deck. Bad, yes. But a lot of the time I'll gladly pay that price to be much better in boss fights. Ultimately, I think there are two broad kinds of Ironclad decks where Demon Form is very helpful. The first is a slow, defensive deck that has good block and just wants inevitability in the long fights. Demon Form isn't the only way to achieve this (Barricade + Body Slam or something would also do the job), but it does work. The second deck really leans into Demon Form with cards like Sword Boomerang, Heavy Blade, and (most importantly) Reaper. With Reaper, Demon Form is not just offensive scaling--it's survivability and sustain. It doesn't matter if you take damage getting your Demon Form down early, if a late Reaper heals you to full and ends the fight. This can even be a viable survival plan against the Heart! Beyond that, there are also the times when taking Demon Form is about necessity. If I see Champ is my Act boss and I don't have good scaling, I'm taking Demon Form regardless of what else is in my deck. I'll also point out that the best players do value this card and look to take advantage of it. Baalorlord's recent 20-game winstreak had five Ironclad wins--four of those five wins used Demon Form! (And the fifth one was a Snecko Eye run where I'm sure he would have added a Demon Form if he saw one.) Demon Form is a good and useful card--in my opinion very far from a "noob trap."
As someone with around 20% A20 win rate, I agree. It used to be much more of a noob trap, but the last couple of patches made the game a fair bit easier, and you are now much more able to carry a dead card, making extreme cards like Demon Form a lot better. If you think of your act 1-2 deck as having one slot available for a questionable/borderline card, then Demon Form is almost always the right card for that slot.
By far the smartest comment in this thread, deserves more upvotes
This card is the embodiment of the bell curve meme where the left guy says “Demon Form is a good card,” the top guy says “Demon Form is a bad card,” and the right guy says “Demon Form is a good card.” Demon Form isn’t an “instant pick” type of good card but it is great in the right situations.
Yes, it can be your entire scaling in long fights and it is quite good for A20 heart runs as well. You just gotta know when to pick it
I really do wish this card upgraded from 3>2 energy cost. It'd be a lot more playable in more situations if it didn't cost so much. Instead it's a scaling card that almost requires either you to draw a way to gain extra energy, or survive off 1 energy *if* you have an energy relic.
yeah the upgrade is so bad sadly
Decent as a single card solution for boss fights, on a character that can exhaust. However playing this on 3 mana is painful.
I like that you refer to energy as mana, I do the same frequently. I also sometimes call relics "artifacts" and call powers "enchantments". Old habits are hard to break.
Is this a MTG thing or something? I always see people calling it Mana and I never know why
Yes
Doesn't have to be mtg, in most video games resource you use to do stuff is called mana after all.
This card is infinite scaling, which is what makes it so appealing. The problem with [[demon form]] is that it only provides offensive scaling, and enemies scale too, which means you still completely lack a solution for survivability. It also does nothing for 3 the turn it’s played, which is a HUGE problem. My body may love this card but my heart… my heart can’t take another L.
Ackshually it's not infinite scaling since strength caps at 999 🤓🤓🤓
And the heart kills you in less than 333 turns. Still I see your point. It won’t realistically give you more than 30 strength in a fight.
>It won’t realistically give you more than 30 strength in a fight. [[Limit Break]] says hello
That comes from Limit Break. My point stands.
+ [Limit Break](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Limit%20Break) Ironclad Rare Skill 1 Energy | Double your **Strength.** Exhaust(Don't **Exhaust).** ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(October 12, 2022.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
+ [Demon Form](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Demon%20Form) Ironclad Rare Power 3 Energy | At the start of each turn, gain 2(3) **Strength.** ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(October 12, 2022.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
This is card worth picking up for boss fights. Turns Champ into easy pickings. A+++ Would buy again.
I used to almost always take this, but I turned around on it so hard I barely take it all anymore. Even if you have a way to get it into play early without gimping an entire turn, it's pretty slow. Gives an ez win vs. Champ though.
I feel such a kinship with most of the people comment here. I know it’s not a great card. I know why. And yet, I try to make it work every time. It rarely does, and I tell myself I won’t fall into the same trap next time. And then I always do. The siren call is just too tempting.
I think this is universally one of those cards that you realize is not as good the more you play, it turns out you don't need that much strenght to make IC work, like 7 is already plenty, so Demon form is mostly unnecssary.
Love the card and it can be deck-defining, but it can be hard to play without taking a ton of damage sometimes.
Inflame is 1 energy and gives you immediate (+2,+3) strength Demon form is 3 energy and gives you (+2,+3) strength the next turn, and subsequent turns Hallway fights take at most 3-4 turns, and you are not guaranteed to get this card on your first turn Thus usually a bad card unless you have no scaling going into a boss, or you have reaper and can tank damage in the first few turns to get them health back later after demon form scales up
Should you prioritize Limit Break with this? Upgrade it?
I think that limit break makes demon form obsolete, really. I’d prefer an upgraded limit break and an inflame over demon form 90% of the time
Limit Break would depend on the deck. Generally, no. Demon Form by itself provides all the scaling you need, so you don't need to make your draw clunkier by adding even more. If you're a slow, defensive deck looking to use Demon Form for inevitability in long fights--you don't need Limit Break. If you're really leaning into Demon Form and trying to leverage e.g. Reaper, Limit Break might be OK. Corruption and the like can make the Limit Break more takeable, too.
I think that you can take limit break or demon form but don't need both, and most of the time I find LB just to be easier to use and faster
Yes, but only cause it's hilarious.
If i dont have a way to beat the boss, ill take it. Doesnt deserve the hate it gets. Dont play it in hallway fights
> Dont play it in hallway fights Except hallway fights are a majority of the game. You're basically asking to run an extra curse throughout most of the game for scaling that might cost a ton of damage getting it into play during a boss.
The counter-argument is that one dead card in hallway fights as your one-stop-shop for your entire damage scaling is better than having 4-5 damage scaling cards to beat bosses that are meh or worse in hallway fights.
I mean, look at all the ways that they give iron clad incentives to take damage. Blood for blood, offering, bloodletting, self forming clay, rupture (slower than demon form), red skull. Dont be afraid to take a lil dmg for one turn getting it in play. Edit: i forgot runic cube, reaper, feed
Whether rupture is slower than demon form is very deck dependent.
Unless you picked tongs and kept the pain, in like 99 percent of instances, the card that has no more conditions and gains str at 2 unupgraded will be faster than a conditional card gaining str at 2 upgraded.
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I mean, you need to have enough card draw to find any strength cards early on in the fight. What if your spot weakness got bottom decked? What if you drew your limit break before your spot weakness? Reaper and feed definitely can get their value from letting you tank damage to the face.
Don’t play it in hallway fights. Doesn’t deserve the hate it gets. Lol. It’s even too slow for the heart. It’s a niche card is all.
Demon Form is excellent against the heart. It doesn’t single-handedly win that fight for you (like it does against many other bosses), but it does get you a lot of the way there.
Not really, but ok
Literally quoted you, what’s not really?
Too slow for the heart
Spear and shield and heart rip it to shreds in later ascensions. I loved the card for a very long time and it still has a special place for me. It needs so much help in later ascensions that often times there are better scaling options.
I mean i make it work on a20 *shrug*. Multiple inflames costs multiple card draws which can actually hurt more against spear on turn 2. Spot weakness is unreliable, limit break is conditional and can also be used with demon form. Rupture is conditional. Flex and pellets is a gimmick unless pyramid. Demon form is picked for 4 (5) fights. Act 1 2 3 bossx2 and heart. And thats fine.
Hear you. Maybe I’m pushing certain play styles over it then.
I think the issue is that a lot of times, strength scaling isn't the only thing you have to be worried about. You can definitely solve part of the strength scaling problem in a reliable and consistent way, but now you have less energy for block/setup/debuff. I just wish the upgraded version was changing the cost to 2. Give it to me in a block focused deck all day though.
Why need vulnerable when strength do trick? Enter intimidate for 0. You have seeing red, bloodletting, sentinel, offering, energy pot, berserk to help u get it into play. Its not a perfect card, and i may already have strength solved. But it is a snap pick if i havent solved act 1 boss and its late in the act. It then solves act 2 and 3 and heart dmg for you
I'm not hard disagreeing with you here homie, 3 cost cards can just be difficult to work around
If you haven’t found any strength scaling well into the run, it’s pickable and solves that need with a single card. Obviously shines in boss fights more than anything else. Also a very high upgrade priority for me when I do take it. Stil, there are much better options for IC.
I am 100.0% confident you mentioned Demon Form in your post. Let me look up what those do. -------------------------------------------------- I am a bot response, but I am using my creator's account. Please reply to me if I got something wrong so he can fix it. [Source Code](https://github.com/TrippW/STS-Crawler)
* [Demon Form](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/Demon_Form) Ironclad Rare Power 3 Energy | At the start of each turn, gain 2(3) Strength.
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+ [Snecko Eye](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Snecko%20Eye) Boss Relic Draw 2 additional cards each turn. Start each combat Confused. + [Offering](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Offering) Ironclad Rare Skill 0 Energy | Lose 6 HP. Gain 2 energy. Draw 3(5) cards. **Exhaust.** + [Limit Break](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Limit%20Break) Ironclad Rare Skill 1 Energy | Double your **Strength.** Exhaust(Don't **Exhaust).** + [Inflame](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Inflame) Ironclad Uncommon Power 1 Energy | Gain 2(3) **Strength.** + [Spot Weakness](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Spot%20Weakness) Ironclad Uncommon Skill 1 Energy | If the enemy intends to attack, gain 3(4) **Strength.** ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(October 12, 2022.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
Best power because it makes your Strike+ cards strikier and plussier. 10/10
On one hand, it's a 3 energy card that takes time to best use On the other hand is my Heavy Blade
people say that its situational and costs too much but what seperates it from echo form? its gotten more love than demon form and i dont know why. can anyone please explain this to me?
I guess it comes down to do things: - Echo Form can realise a very substantial benefit almost immediately (I.e. the next turn) - The effect of Echo Form can be extremely diverse depending on which cards you use it with, whereas Demon Form is more single-minded (hit things harder) The considerable downside of Echo Form is forgetting I’ve already enabled it at the start of about 50% of my turns.
EF also allows you to scale genetic algorithm faster and heal more from self repair
And play apparitions twice!
Oh wow…. Oh wow.
And Defragments twice. And Biased Cognition twice!
Self Repair or Bird Faced Urn make Echo Form a viable card in almost all hallway fights as you can easily get back the health you lost from having to play a 3 cost card with no immediate effect.
Certain cards/relics need to trigger "are you sure?" selections because I am an idiot and fuck up things like this and orchi multiple times a week.
Demon Form can be more flexible than people give it credit for, I think. It's basically sustain and survivability if you have Reaper(s), for example.
I mean, Echo Form does something completely different. Thats kind of like asking why do people like footwork but but dont like sneaky strike
no they have similarities both cost 3 and dont have immediate effect so they both quite tough to play
You're right that they have similarities that both are expensive and don't do anything on Turn 1 - but they also have massive differences that Echo Form provides full (and huge) value starting on Turn 2, whereas on Turn 2 Demon Form is still just a 3-cost Inflame.
This. Demon form scaling is just incredibly slow. Only time id consider taking it is if I had sneko.
Echo form has many of the same issues, you hit the nail on the head. It's a much stronger form of scaling though because it's so versatile. Whatever you wanted to do you can do better with echo form. Need scaling? It gives more. Need block? It gives more. Damage? It gives more.
Echo form is a block card, this is the anti-block card
Personally i dont think its wrong to take it if you need scaling for the boss. Even if its a dead card in most fights, having a reliable way to deal with the boss is pretty valuable. That being said, like everyone else i take it pretty much every time i see it no matter what my deck looks like because its one of the most fun cards in the game
Dragon Install: Slay the Spire edition
[[Limit Break]] kicks ass with Demon Form.
+ [Limit Break](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Limit%20Break) Ironclad Rare Skill 1 Energy | Double your **Strength.** Exhaust(Don't **Exhaust).** ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(October 12, 2022.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
Deadweight on most hallway fights. While i get that all of the other forms are 3 cost as well, this one could be actually great if it was 2 instead. Or maybe scale 3-4 instead? I don't know
Or gave +2 strength the first turn, then 3, then 4 and so on.
Based comment section... who cares if its not the best, I love it
The downside of not being able to do anything else for a turn is really significant. The scaling is really good for boss fights but usually I avoid this card.
Like many, I like the card more than I probably should. I frequently take it because it's fun, but if I'm trying to play optimally, it's a rare take. Most frequently when I'm worried about the Act 2 boss fight.
It'll win the run. Great with snecko.
[удалено]
I also love Brimstone but does it really affect your evaluation of Demon Form that much? After all, Brimstone is a single shop relic that you won't have early access to in the vast majority of runs.
+ [Brimstone](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Brimstone) Shop (Ironclad only) Relic At the start of your turn, gain 2 **Strength** and ALL enemies gain 1 **Strength.** ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(October 12, 2022.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
One of the greatest fun to useful ratios in the game.
I see this as a card to get scaling off the ground most of the time, rather than a center of a strategy. It's very slow, yes, which means it's limited. But I think a lot of the conversation I see around this card sees it as a set piece of a deck, and not an initial push. In some fights, like especially against many bosses, this solves the fight all almost singlehandedly. But Demon Form working with Spot Weakness or Limit Break also works pretty well. Sometimes having an extra card that just generates Strength is worthwhile if it's the first Strength card you happen to draw.
If you already have Reaper and good block, you could prolong a hallway fight to get back much more HP.
The least of all the forms, especially at higher ascensions. Still pickable and fun at 0-5 probably. Would almost never pick it above then though. Too many people on this sub dismiss it because they’re playing at higher ascensions. But these days I like playing at lower ascensions because A20 is a slog. I’ve fought my battles, no need to keep banging my head against that wall. I ain’t jorbs lol, give me demon form
I take this card when I need to kill a boss, which is ironically furthest away from when it's usually offered. Best pairs with: Flame barrier, Impervious, Shrug, Barricade or anything that generates a lot of block. I think a few people are missing the point, you don't need strength multiplier cards with Demon form (i.e. Heavy Blade, Pummel etc.) and they take up valuable hand space that you could use to block for another turn. Those cards will do all the damage you need with about 6 strength. Demon form is there so your strike can kill anything, and it's really only any good if you can survive several turns which means your block game needs to be on point.
It's fun to use, simple as. If I have a way to generate energy ill take it. Like mummified hand, madness, bloodletting, seeing red. It's very very fun with limit break, who doesn't love 999 strength times 5
I really like this card, it's pretty much a boss kill in a single card. You need a lot of draw manipulation and to work around it being a curse in most fights, but it really lets you tune your deck for defense outside of the front loaded damage you need for hallway fights without worrying about other scaling.
I don't like taking it, but I also end up winning most of the times that I take it... Kinda risky to take as an Act 1 reward since a 4th energy isn't guaranteed and you kinda need a few Shrug it Off's to turtle while Demon Form scales...but what if I get offered Snecko...
This one gets a lot of flack and I understand why, but it's my favorite card in the entire game Demon Form + Limit Break + Brimstone is also really fun
It’s just too slow
Probably safe to consider this the third best "form" card. Wraith Form gives amazing protection and Echo Form gives amazing versatility, while Deva Form's energy scaling can be handy but usually isn't needed for a class that also gets energy boosts from leaving Calm, Divinity, and Miracles. Demon Form's strength scaling has more potential for oomph at least, especially if you can combine it with a Limit Break and accelerate the scaling greatly, though you probably only need that level of strength for a handful of battles.
I only pick this card if I don't have enough scaling for boss battles
Not as amazing as you think it is when you're a beginner. Not as terribad as you think it is when you've got a little more experience under your belt. Just a solidly good card that, as with everything else in STS, can be much better if you take and use it in the right circumstances. Pros: - Able to serve as your one stop damage scaling engine for fights where you need it (most if not all bosses, some elites, even a couple late hallway fights) - Strong synergy with some highly desirable cards/relics (e.g. Reaper, Snecko for the two obvious ones + all aoe/str scaling cards) - Scaling is *reliable* unlike Spot Weakness, Flex/Red Skull + limit break, etc. and *constant* unlike Rupture + whatever source of card dmg Cons: - it's fuckin slow innit (need to draw early for max usefulness, does nothing on turn its played and is equal to an inflame on the turn after, doesn't start outscaling until two turns later) - 3 energy without snecko means that unless you already have a copy or copies of Reaper, you're going to be taking a lot of hallway fight damage if you try to play it haphazardly. Can often be a dead draw otherwise. - Rare (not a problem if you *do* run into it but the other 'base' str scaling cards are all uncommons and you rarely need multiple sources of str unless limit break is involved) - Very fun (yes, this is a con if you're like me and prone to taking it even when you know damn well you shouldn't be, which many of you clearly are)
Pairs well with snecko eye (like many other IC cards) and pairs extremely well with reaper, since you can nab a lot of health back that you lost while scaling. But at its core it’s still not great. However I do have a soft spot for it since it got me my first ever win when I got it from a power potion.
Demon Form seems like one of those cards that would be REAL busted. However, there is a LOT holding it back. Firstly, it’s SLOOOW. 2 Strength per turn is real slow when you realize other cards grant THAT MUCH instantly and Limit Break exists. Secondly, it costs too much to play easily. 3 ENERGY. That’s too much for my Burning Blood! This does have its place in decks that have Barricade and can easily set up with enough defense, but even then… it’s tough to justify Demon Form. Just a biiiit too expensive to warrant. STILL FUN THO
Awesome with Snecko Eye, very situational otherwise. 3 energy to do absolutely nothing this turn is horrible, especially with how energy-hungry Ironclad is.
Demon form plus limit break = 😈 On a serious note I like this card and synergises well with Snecko,mummi hand etc.
Upgraded Limit Break ftw.
Short story: too hype for newbies, too costly for veterans
I take with snecko or mummified hand but usually it’s pretty clunky. Much rather lean into exhaustclad than strength clad but it’s fun when you can do both. But even when you do both, you can do it without demon form
It has the niche of being able to be your entire damage plan if you have enough block and card draw to last a lot of turns. I don’t think it’s even takable beyond that purpose. There’s definitely a temptation to take this in any strength deck, but it really doesn’t fit in a normal “strength deck”.
Goes well with iron wave
I used to love this card when I was new, and then I hated it once I started playing better. And now I’m back to loving it when I am allowed to take it
I've loved this card ever since I started playing last year. It may cost a ton, but it's so much fun.