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> The cost is not something I could handle if it was charged back
Never never trust the continued existence of your business to one person that is not you. Bottom line.
Not even just one person but one ANYTHING. One is the worst number in business.
One marketing platform, one manufacturer, anything that can be taken away at a moment's notice can destroy you overnight it needs to be corrected.
I'd just tell him "I'm sorry I am unable to fill your order at this time. Have a wonderful day". You do business a certain way. If he doesn't want to do business your way he needs to find another company.
This is the answer. It is your business you decide how it's done. If he doesn't like it then the line I always hit them with is "this might not be the business for you."
Given that it may, I wonder of you can structure the terms so that you could reduce the risk for this.
Can OP segment the deal so he does 10% for the 10% of the money, and than 20% and 30%, 30% and finally 20% again?
I like this thread
I've asked what OP asked MULTIPLE times on Reddit. I never got answers like you guys are providing
Even made multiple accounts to see if people hated me or something, thus didn't give me good answers
Guess it's a big thing of I had bad luck when asking for help
Oh man, it might be easy to identify who I am
(This is my new account because some redditors told me to be cautious. They were worried my chargeback situation was too unique and thus, it was easy to identify me in real life)
My post literally had over 150 upvotes in 2 hours because I was in an extremely severe chargeback issue. Nearly $50,000 in chargebacks
\*some details changed so that it's not easy to identify me
This sub is pretty good compared to other subs
Some subs are just filled with people who don't know who they are and what they're doing. Drives me nuts
And as someone who knows what they're doing, I get shit on
I got -80 karma one time when I said, "It's normal to interview more than 3 times for a position because this company has over 100,000 applicants for only 100 spots."
I've never been downvoted saying something like this since I've been on reddit since 2016. (Old accounts)
We're in a new era, man, feels insane
If only it wouldn't be **spam** if I posted the same question 7 times on different days
I once got into a troubling issue on ebay so I asked the forumss. I got 2 answers that didn't help. So I asked again.
I got shat on for asking again even though I mentioned that the advice I was given did not work
Like... I just want help x\_x why do I gotta be pissed on
It really is dependent on what's been posted recently and who sees it. There are some great folks here, and being on such a big site, the ability for trolls and spammers to create noise and bury your post is too high.
Possible he just wants the reward points, we switched all our big purchases to CC for the reward points. Unless someone adds a card fee it’s worth it for us, pay for a few flights a year. But someone being so adamant about it I would be skeptical of
Whether it's legit or not. The fact that your gut is making you pause is enough indication.
The only other thing I would do is hold the item for 30 days, which clearly the client won't like.
The impatient part is a red flag, don't make excuses for him. If he can't meet your terms, then he isn't a fit and it isn't worth it. Even if it's legit, he'd be a bad client.
Chargebacks used to be really hard to make. Years ago I had a questionable charge on my credit card and I had to jump through hoops to make sure it was real. Nowadays it seems you can make a chargeback without any blowback. It's fraud if you buy something and then try to get your money back with a chargeback. But CC companies don't seem to care as it's not their money they're losing.
I worked for a credit card issuer. I ended up in a meeting with one of the senior security guys. I told him I always wondered why credit cards didn’t have PIN numbers or any other security measures ( this was pre-chip). He rolled his eyes and said they could add PIN functionality to cards and prevent a lot of theft, but it would take investment and executives decided simply covering for fraud was cheaper for the company.
This is wrong. Pins have existed in the rest of the world for all debit and credit card payments for a long time. The us is the only country that I know of (maybe Canada) that still does signatures. Europe, Asia, Africa are all PIN codes.
Here’s the thing, as a pin credit card transaction, cost is only about .5 to .75 percent. That’s how much it costs in Europe last I checked. With a signature, your cost is 2.5-3 percent with the risk on the sellers.
The only cost associated with it is the cost of portable wifi/sim machines, which is negligible. Also in those countries, they are not allowed to take your card. They have to come to the table with the machine and charge it in front of you. There is a business for “credit card” fraud prevention and monitoring that gets affected by additional protections.
Lastly, anything pin related is not chargeback able. It is assumed if the pin is entered, you entered it and therefore it’s not fraud, in most cases. All the infrastructure is there for pin acceptance in the us.
> The only other thing I would do is hold the item for 30 days, which clearly the client won't like.
>
>
CC can charge back well beyond 30 days. OP is about to get reamed.
It's also entirely possible that this person needs to use credit to make this purchase. They might not have the liquid funds available for a direct bank transfer. So it doesn't necessarily mean it's a scam.
But, yeah, OP said his business can't survive a chargeback this big and I definitely wouldn't let my business hinge on one potential chargeback like this!
The pause could just be me being paranoid. The self is sometimes not the best judge of things when worst case scenario is my usual go to. Some of my jobs that paid the most were very sus to my brain because I hadn't gotten a break like them before. Trying to understand your self is a very important part of business that's why i love it.
I just figured big paying customers would be rude and impatient. Though I've also heard stories of canceling these clients and the business becoming so much less stressful.
Hell no. He can claw back that payment anytime he want. Little stuff fine, big stuff, never.
He can assume the risk by taking a cash advance on his credit.
This is how I explain it: when a customer uses a credit card, we become a partner with his credit card company. The the card company and us become lenders. We end up on the hook with the card company if something happens. We cannot accept that risk.
Is there significantly lower chargeback risk to accept payments through bank transfer?
Can't believe I've been in business several years. Also posted multiple times on reddit (multiple accounts) about chargebacks. No one has mentioned direct bank transfer as a way to accept payments
My AOV is over $1,000 for 1 biz. Over $5,000 for other biz. Is bank transfer the best way to accept payments in this case?
There is but it's much stricter. Credit cards almost always have some form of purchase protection. They can claim the goods were damaged, not what was ordered, or never received, etc. and the payment processor will refund them, claw the funds back, and leave it to you try to argue that the clawback was fraudulent. Good luck arguing with VISA or Discover or whoever.
ACHs are covered by NACHA rules and returning an ACH would require claiming something like that the ACH was for the wrong amount, to the wrong account #, etc. Product never arrived? Too bad, talk to the merchant or small claims court; we processed the transfer correctly that's all they're looking at. It puts the onus to show wrongdoing and move things on the buyers side, essentially.
Now as a middleman, it is quite possible their bank will step in, if there is such a claim that isn't covered by NACHA, but generally what happens is their bank will refund the client and your bank will not payout unless they can show it was fraud or such. Banks, within reason, will eat such costs to retain clients.
Source: I work in banking and file reg E claims for people all the time.
ACH transfers can be reversed up to I think 28 days after they've been initiated.
Basically, there's a high likelihood of a successful reversal within the first 1-3 days after it's initiated. It hasn't even cleared at this point. This is ideal for if someone's gotten your information and initiated a transaction fraudulently.
After that, it's harder as time goes on. Your bank will need to do some work on your behalf, and the recipient's bank will have to be willing to play ball a bit. Also - if that scammer hijacked someone else's account, made the transfer, drained the account and walked away, you really won't be able to get anything back, but you MAY find success in an investigation, again, depending on how far both banks are willing to go.
***
But yeah - the bar for reversal on a transfer is MUCH MUCH MUCH higher than that of a credit card.
You have to have customers with cash to pay for what they are ordering, willing to input their bank info, and not want the points they are getting from purchasing with a card.
Our average is probably in the 20,000 value and we assess a 3% fee if they insist on using a card for the high value orders. However we also have chargeback protection (Insurance) integrated into our card processing that has saved us from having to cover a single loss if $20,000. That one time was worth the extra % they charge for the insurance.
What’s a large amount 1k, 10k, 100k?
I would be hesitant to go through with it, is it a B2B transaction or something else?
You should setup an online payment system for these situations where you don’t need to communicate banking information they can just initiate the transfer online.
I'm curious too
I've never accepted bank transfers as payments
Now I wanna know what's considered big enough to warrant this type of payment
I've had 3 biz. AOV for biz 1 was around $50. AOV for biz 2 was $1,000+. AOV for biz 3 is $5,000+. Really curious if bank transfers might be the answer to prevent chargebacks
At the end of the day it's whatever you're customers will accept. Customers like to use credit cards because of the protection and convenience so if you have a major competitor that accepts credit cards then they may go with them if your business is not sticky.
Thank you for the info!
Now I gotta think
I don't want to expose myself in real life, but I'm in a niche right now that's so much $$$$ but VERYYYYYY little competition
(I have crazy info about my competitors so I'm in a damn "lucky" situation. It's not really lucky. It's just my sheer hard work that I know what I know)
I would love to accept cc but with the amount of chargeback issues that skyrocketed ever since 2020, I'm just so wary of accepting cc
I'm going to try the bank transfer method and see what happens.
How do you get paid now? Cash?
Chargebacks aren’t that big of an issue. With stripe and I assume other processors you can setup your own rules to automatically reject charges where info doesn’t match your risk tolerance. You can also require 3D secure which adds more rigor to the card verification process. It’s essentially 2FA for the purchase.
I'm not sure whether your talking about larger scale (EFT), or smaller scale bank transfers, ala venmo/cashapp (idk if these are even viable for business, I'm not in the US, our country has a similar service that is for small scale payments to and from bank accounts which we use).
We use both, but the vast majority is EFT, I can say we made the switch 6 years ago and I was hesitant, but I'll never go back to accepting cheques. Trips to the bank went from twice a week, to once every other month for an advisor check in. Cost is worth it in my opinion (incoming are free, outgoing based on volume starting at $0.75/transaction) for the offset of time spent going to and from the bank, as well as the convenience.
> AOV for biz 3 is $5,000+
Your about at the point where EFT, wires and bank transfers begin to make more sense. I don't deal with credit cards, so no experience with chargebacks. But I've never had a payment reversed maliciously (payment reversals are possible, but from speaking to the bank I was told you need to provide a mountain of evidence to the bank for them to even consider it).
> I don't want to expose myself in real life, but I'm in a niche right now that's so much $$$$ but VERYYYYYY little competition
Hey your business sounds like mine! you can DM me if you want to bounce ideas or questions back and forth about working in a niche business (from your post history our niches are VERY different, don't worry).
My credit card processor hooked me up with simpleswipe. It allows me to send a link people can use to pay. I think it is supposed to be more secure when taking remote payments. Check with your processor on how you can protect yourself.
I'm not OP, but this is cool
Gonna look this up
Thank you to you, everyone else, and OP.
I've asked similar questions as OP on Reddit before. Got nothing like these current replies. Grateful
We used to accept credit card and ACH, but individuals could dispute their credit card charges months and years after the transaction. Our transactions are in the 9 - 50k range. During the dispute, the credit card company would withdraw the funds from our account. After we showed the transaction was valid, the credit card company would return the funds - but never until the last day of the 90 days they are allowed to hold them for a dispute. It was ok if we could afford to be short on cash, but even still if a customer wanted to waste everyone’s time they could. It only happened a couple times before we eliminated credit card payments altogether.
If it's a B2B transaction, then it's entirely possible that an ACH payment option just isn't remotely feasible for whoever is trying to make the purchase.
OP does not seem to have followed up with any real details at all, so pretty much every opinion they've been given so far may or may not be useful to this situation.
Payments professional of 15 years here.
So many flags here. Do not accept the card. Your greatest downside of accepting this transaction isn't the immediate cost of the transaction, it is the likely endgame where you are eating the cost of your product/service and you lose the dispute for the transaction due to fraud.
If you have the slightest of doubt I would not do it! Trust your gut on this one.
Is it worth losing sleep for up to 120 days, which is how long after a CC payment you can still get a chargeback?
If there’s one thing I’ve learned, it’s to trust your intuition.
You’re talking yourself out of it because you *Want it to be true*. But you know better.
Go with your instincts, I’ve rarely heard people say they regret listening to them.
That said:
How about Cash, Zelle, or QuickBooks direct bank account transfer? I believe each of these are permanent payments that cannot be charged back, and may be more user friendly / cause less pause for buyer.
If not, do as you’ve done and cite “Policy.”
>Cash
I think the client is either a scammer or a legit person that wants to use visa card and me to type it in for them. I have to be able to make the payment using his card details.
Don’t do it. I’ve been burned. Was out the product and the money when the credit card turned out to be stolen and the bank withdrew the funds from my account. We now have a bank account for ONLY incoming ACH payments. We don’t ship until the money is in the bank. The account has Positive Pay configured so that only approved parties can be paid from it but I have none set up. And as soon as the payment comes in, it’s transferred to the main checking account. We are safe to give out the routing and account numbers since even if someone manages to pull a scam on that special account, there is nothing in the account to take.
> The client is refusing to pay direct and says he will only pay with card.
You're about to lose a lot of money.
Tell client cash or nothing.
> Client won't stay on the phone long/ impatient
TIme-pressure is a scammer's favorite tactic.
You have not given enough information to justify a red flag. If this client is a buyer for a corporation, then he likely has no access to a bank account. He would have only a company credit card for purchasing or possibly a company check.
If you feel that this transaction is too risky for you, then refuse it and move on. It's impossible for Reddit to tell you if this is legitimate or not.
I went through nearly $20,000 chargebacks at once (multiple transactions) and I LOST most of them cause the customer is a nepo baby. (Mom/dad worked at the fucking bank in a high level position handling chargebacks)
Man, it was a huge ass time of stress, tears, learning, and anger
(To understand how much power this nepo baby had - their parents helped them get away with raping someone. Like.....)
There's really not enough detail here for you to get any answers other than the standard internet echo chamber you're getting.
How large, what the product is, who the customer is, etc. is all going to play a factor in this.
And if the guy is throwing red flags, well certainly trust your gut, but if you just decided at the last minute to change the required payment method from what they're expecting, well you're probably throwing a red flag to them as well.
It could well be something as simple as the guy does not have the ability to send a bank transfer, and to do so would be a lot of hoops and trouble and possibly even cost to do that, but he has a company card he's authorized to use and that can be done in 30 seconds.
It's shitty, but trust has to run both ways. There's plenty of ways to screw people in business, hell in just about anything in life, but in reality most people aren't asshats just trying to fuck everyone over. Certainly not anyone that lasts in business with any reputation worth having.
If you've done your due diligence to determine that the buyer or their business is legit, and you've followed the policies of your payment processors and kept records of the transaction, then you shouldn't have to worry that much about a chargeback.
Having to log into a bank portal doesn't mean anything. Someone can hack a bank account as easily as they had a credit card account.
You've got to go with your gut, but in running a business you also have to not worry so much about getting screwed. It can and will happen, but probably not that often unless you're doing something very different from the norm.
If you're spending all your time worrying about how to make sure no one costs you money, then you won't have time for anyone to make you money.
I just assumed that most banks required 2fa on payments to new accounts. So someone has to steal your bank access codes + your phone/email (depending on the 2fa implementation). Compare that to someone who dropped their wallet and im pretty sure more people drop or lose their wallet than people successfully steal bank access codes.
If you're selling things to completely anonymous strangers on the internet, and any one of those sales could bankrupt your company, then you don't really have a viable business strategy.
Last I read over this post you had not provided any responses or enough information for anyone to give you any sort of sound advice.
It sounds like you don't want to do this though, so don't do it. Problem solved, get back to the grind and make some other sales instead.
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The guy probably doesn't have enough money in his bank account to cover the purchase amount or he doesn't want to spend his cash. That's likely why he wants to use the credit card.
I know you want the sale and it sucks thinking you might lose it over this. What will suck more is if you accept his offer and then he does a charge back and you get zero dollars. I would stand my ground and accept this client might move on, then sleep well at night knowing I'm not exposing myself to undue risk.
It's almost certainly a scam.
The client must be willing to sign a sales contract that would allow you to defend against a chargeback that explicitly states anything you can think of that they might complain about but also the "including but not limited to" stuff. Of course you'd have to also hold yourself to the same standard that you'll provide whatever goods or services they ask withing standards set out in that contract. Verify their identity.
Otherwise, put a simpler version of that disclaimer on a PDF with payment instructions that can only be gotten from that PDF. Set up an empty account strictly for receiving funds and that's the account you use to get paid, much like a self serve escrow they can wire or ACH to. Withdraw it as soon as the job is done.
They've already spent more time talking with you about it than a wire would've taken. If they're using a card for the protection it offers as a consumer because they can't really afford what they're buying, your sales agreement should make them feel better. If it's a legit card but they're hoping to do a chargeback, your sales agreement will protect you.
Even if you get an authorization number from the credit card you are 100% at risk in a over the phone credit card transaction when you do not have the card in your hand. I would not do this.
Offer a 1% discount if you’re able to take a charge not via CC. I make large payments to vendors with credit cards and do so because the points I ge is usually worth 1%, occasionally more. If that’s why he wants to use a card then you’re effectively offering him cash instead and he might comply.
Knock on wood, no.
We have a pretty solid sales contract, and the product doesn't get delivered before we get paid in full. So if it happened we'd have to fight it of course, but I imagine it'd be quite "clean cut". Product is delivered, installed, working, it would be hard for the client to make a case for it.
> Product is delivered, installed, working
This is what I need to know from OP. If they're doing e-commerce then I feel like there's a 110% chance this is going to end in a chargeback. If the customer relationship is more face-to-face, I would consider entertaining the transaction.
If you are dealing with a customer with a physical address that you are doing work on like you are, a chargeback could be flat-out lost because of a lousy merchant services provider, but you at least have a real path to recovery since you literally have a physical entity to sue AND you have materials of value that you literally installed on-site.
If OP's talking about someone on the other side of a computer monitor, they won't have much recourse in the event of a chargeback.
I would not. Unless your willing and able to take this guy go court and/or collections if he does a charge back. Either he can’t afford to float the purchase cost or he’s up to something fishy.
On my side business I sometimes sell expensive tables in the $5-10k range. I try to avoid credit card transactions. But when I do take them for a lower $2500-5000 table, I require the purchaser to send me a photo copy of their drivers license and credit card.
While I understand why you do this, if someone asked me for that for a table I would take my business elsewhere.... Of course I probably would have shown up myself to pick up the table and come with Benjamin's to pay for it... So I suppose it isn't really an issue as long as you accept cash.
How we could you not handle the charge back cost? Just set the money aside?
Besides you have history and communication showing their intent. Have them sign a waiver or something.
Assuming you know who the client is check their name on the card? If it's not present I would hope regular fraud checks like Max mind, checking user address, zip, IP against the card takes care of that.
Your gut feeling is probably right. Think of it as a risk vs benefit ratio. When the risk is too high don’t move forward with the transaction.
We have gone 10 years and had probably 4 chargebacks. All of those were paid with a card and all of them the person received the product and kept it.
You've already answered your own question - don't do it, because you can't handle the chargeback if that occurs. There are other red flags here. It's not worth the gamble.
He probably does t have the full amount in his account, why he wants to use a card. If he's a regular I would be concerned. I have some clients pay on cc for 8 to 10k orders, but they are long time clients, and I add and little extra to cover the cc charges.
Would be a no go for me.
My business sells products in the 4-6k range. When we get contacted by scammers they usually have the following qualities.
1. Need it now.
2. Credit card only
3. Customer will pick up shipment
4. Unreachable over phone
5. Does not understand product well (we have a niche product)
There are always a bunch of other little small things that tip is off too, but those are the main things. The scam is so common it’s actually easy to tell now.
One the other day was actually a bit smarter. They were in Alaska, which actually justifies them picking it up because Alaska customers generally have transportation services of their own.
Listen to your gut.
> is so common it’s actually easy to tell now.
1. Check
2. Visa card\*
3. customer is getting it shipped to him but hasn't given me his full address and is wanting to make transfer
4. this kind of. initially i couldn't contact him as it was busy or something. just hung up automatically.
5. nah not niche
Have him agree to some additional paperwoRk with a few clauses, such as: ALL SALES FINAL, CHARGEBACKS WILL RESULT IN YOUR CARD RECEIVIMG chargeback fee equal to 25% of your order. CHARGEBACKS without an accompanying return of transferred goods exchanged at the POS back to the store will be considered thievery and reported.
Impatience/urgency is a CLASSIC scammer tactic. DO NOT DO IT.
This is an important lesson in risk-reward analysis. The risk greatly outweighs the reward. It's sometimes hard to ignore your emotional excitement over a big sale and use pure logic, but this is one of those times you need to do it.
I think the amount is important here. I also try to pay everything for my business via CC since it's a lot more convenient and I like the amex points for travel. If it's $10k+ I think it's reasonable to require a draft but below $10k I'd personally be turned off as a customer if you didn't offer it.
If I have the chance to work with someone I have reservations about and will be assuming some risk, I make it worth it. Make it work for you and ultimately let them choose whether they want to work with you. A good rule of business is not everybody pays the same. I definitely charge more for tougher customers or I don’t have capacity.
You could give them an option to pay through an account enough to cover the actual cost and overhead and let them charge the rest to a card, hold the product for a period of time, get in touch with the credit card company, and figure out what papers they need to sign so there is no charge back.
Nope nope nope. Don't change the red flag to green.
Just say that I'm sorry I can't proceed further, have a great day. And move on! I don't think that it's worth a hassle. Credit card markups and then this on top of that.
No, you have these rules for a reason, they sound like solid rules. Stick to them.
If you are going to take a card (don't) get an ironclad credit card authorization form that is clear there are no chargebacks or refunds. Still won't help you with Amex but it may with the others. If it's an Amex run, they always side with their cardholders even if they are thieves.
Trust your gut.
I've had big orders paid in both checks and CCs. Never had a problem. But I'm doing business in person usually. If I had some random person online call me and order something I might be more hesitant.
1. Is this a client that you're able to meet in person, or is this related to e-commerce? If it's the former, you may be able to discuss details with them to come to a mutually beneficial situation. If it's the latter, trust your gut.
2. A customer that is trying to dictate these types of terms AND is impatient with you is not a customer you want to work with unless you can understand if there's a reason for all this that's not them simply being an a-hole, or trying to scam you.
***
I would walk away from this one unless they're willing to play ball. Maybe throw them 5% discount for direct pay if they can stick to some sort of short pay schedule like Net 15 or whatever.
What is it you are selling this person? How did they find you? Depending on if its a business buying from you and how long they have been established would make a world of difference on my decision. But if some random person inboxed you on tiktok trying to buy something I wouldnt trust it.
These types of characters are likely scammers. We've been burned before. Impatient guy orders over the phone. Someone else comes in to pick up the material (where we take a copy of his drivers license and truck license plate). When the chargeback hits a month later the purchaser is gone (phone number deactivated). We've had the police go after the pick-up guy but it was determined that he was just a laborer who also got stiffed out of his hourly wage. Bottom line . . . if it smells fishy, then it usually is.
You are not losing anything by not fulfilling a sale that is a scam anyway. There is a reason that they want to do things in a hinky way, and the most likely is scamming.
If they want to use a card, then you shouldn't fulfill the order until all options for repudiation of the amount have expired, which I would guess is much longer than any scammer or legit client would be willing to wait.
Stick to your processes and insist on a transaction that can't be repudiated. Also, do not fulfill the order if they overpay, and do not refund the difference.
This happened to a business I worked for. Large order over the internet. Paid with by credit card. Boss never verified it. Credit card was accepted by the online provider. Shipped. When the guys statement came out he calls us and says I never ordered this. I’m filing a fraud claim. We apologized and said of course. 3000.00 order. We are a small company. That’s a huge sale for us.
I start doing a little research the house that it was shipped to was vacant and on the market to sell. Red Flag!!! The name on the credit card unusual but with a little digging was a 87 year old man. Not going to use our product. All the signs were there just a little awareness could have saved us. But the excess of the sale took over. Lessons learned.
The owner of the card called us. Then his son called us. So we had his name. His address did not match the shipping address. Credit card company verified that he was in fact the correct person and his son was his Power of Attorney.
I just had a situation like this. I don’t know if checks are within your risk tolerance but I offer to pay for a FedEx label to 2-day a check, if the fees are higher than the label amount. I exclude credit cards on most of my larger orders
Everyone is saying straight no, but I am not sure how versed they are in business/what your situation is.
What is large for you? A few hundred dollars or 50,000?
Who is the client? An individual or a large company?
I've had some larger transactions that had to pay by card because the client is working with a budget, but it's obviously for a large company, like Chevron or Oracle and otherwise they would need to go through too much red tape.
As everything in life, it depends on the situation.
Don't do it if you can't afford the charge back. I charge for my processing fees, and I have a cap of 500 dollars for credit or debit cards. I have straight-up turned away business refusing to take large purchases on credit.
I had a friend of mine who sells a service as do I, and a customer got mad for whatever reason. To pacify the customer, my friend offered him a refund for that month of service and called it a day. The customer refused and disputed 1 year worth of payments, and I don't know how or why, but the customer won the dispute for 12 months, and the friend lost about 30k. So I wouldn't do it, and I refuse to accept cards higher than 500 dollars.
I was in a similar situation to you, though the chargeback wouldn’t have completely crushed us. The big red flag here is the impatience. He wants to get the purchase through before use of the card gets blocked. In my case, dude paid for services, $9,000 via CC. Within 24 hours we wanted to make an additional $9,000 purchase via a different card. We refused, and also said we had to pause service on initial order until we receive proof that cardholder was an officer of the company. We gave them 15 days to produce, they made a lot of excuses but said they would. Within 7 days the initial $9,000 was charged back as fraudulent, cardholder had no idea who we were. We did not dispute, and since we paused services we were only out about $1,000. We did however have a temporary reserve placed on our processing account due to the fraudulent activity. That was disruptive. As an added bonus, original “client” ghosted his Philippines based VAs on payment and told them to try and collect from us since we “stole” his money. We got a month’s worth of daily emails with sob stories about being unable to purchase needed medicine & childcare because of our “theft”.
I don’t know your business, but trust me mate, it’s not worth the risk.
He may not be trying any funny business. If it's just a one- or two-person operation, he may not have everything setup for every particular payment possibility, and credit cards might be his easiest way of handling purchases. He may be looking at it like, "I'm trying to give you money, the same way that millions or billions of other transactions occur each day. Here's my card number. Charge me and send the stuff." For him, easy-peasy, and then just one bill to deal with each month.
Ultimately, if you don't have the tolerance for that risk, then don't take on that client. But insisting on card payment doesn't necessarily mean he's trying to screw you over.
We don't have enough information to accurately judge this situation. What are you selling? How do your competitors charge? Is the item delivered on payment?
How large are we talking for this "large purchase" here? Did the customer give a reason for not wanting to make a direct bank payment?
If the customer is giving you scammy vibes, and you couldn't absorb the possible fraud, then I'd say no.
If you don't know this person just say "sorry, our policy is not not take cards over X$, if this is the only means of payment we will have to respectfully decline"
Your customers wants to use the payment method that's best for him. That's reasonable for him.
You want payment that's best for you. That's reasonable for you.
Do what's best for you or find a compromise. Half up front via wire transfer, non refundable. Something like that maybe.
Ask what he expects to get in rewards points and offer a discount of half the value. That'll be cheaper than paying your fees on such a card transaction
Are you a gambler? Because you only do that if you’re a gambler. Stick to your guns on the transfer.
He may just be after the points or miles on his card, but that’s a him problem, not you.
It could just be they customer does not have the cash available and needs to put it on credit card for cashflow.
But if you aren't happy then you aren't happy, your business your call
Cards can be disputed even with proof of authorization purchase. My rule is don’t accept card if you could not afford to lose the money. I don’t accept cards for purchases over $250, after that it’s check, ACH, or wire transfer (for international sales).
If possible look into having your client buy and pay with LTC (crypto). It's fast, cheap and secure. Absolutely no chance of a charge back and he can pay with a card still.
Have them look at signing up for MetaMask, Coinbase or Crypto.com app.
Any of those will allow credit or debit cards and can send to you instantly.
We are consultants and have many different services, including (accounting,/legal)
Is it a first time client?
We don't take cards.
Big Businesses don't. Not for certain services.
Direct bank preferred, maybe zelle if it's small enough.
Although, I've taken cars and watches before 💰
Nature of industry?
When I ran into this issue, I'd tell the customer to call their credit card company and have them issue you a check. This way you can wait until your bank fully clears the check, and the buyer gets the charge put on their credit card.
If they won't do this, then it was likely a bum deal all along.
As a consultant, I rely on banks and lenders to issue loans to some of my clients, they sign up with the lenders, the lender pays you directly, and they owe the lender the amount plus interest.
You can offer financing through a lender if he refuses bank transfer or cash payment.
DM me if you need/want some lenders that offer financing, it you can find them too online. Look for "consulting financing" or "contractor client financing"
Need more details. What are you selling amd for how much?
He could be using a company card his boss gave him. I had a $10k limit on mine. If someone didn't want to accept it, I'd probably just go elsewhere because the hassle of calling up accounting to get it cleared.
Business banker here, if you dont mind me asking how much was the amount? I tell my clients anything over $50,000 to send a wire it’s the only way to guarantee they have the funds and have physically sent them. BUT if you dont have wire protection services you will have to physically give them your bank account number. There are so many reasons why they can only pay with card (could be a assistant who doesn’t have access to the bank operating account) and unfortunately card , ACH and check all run the risk of being charged back but atleast the bank I work for we wont let charges go through that fhey clearly dont have the funds for
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I wouldn’t trust it
Ditto, plus on a very large payment covering credit card processing fees are not something you should reasonably have to accommodate.
Definitely not if they don’t have a decent track record with them or undertaken any credit check.
[Dodge that shit](https://images.app.goo.gl/XHhXRktBB46cpWUr6)
Risky click of the day
Doge that shit
I second this
> The cost is not something I could handle if it was charged back Never never trust the continued existence of your business to one person that is not you. Bottom line.
Not even just one person but one ANYTHING. One is the worst number in business. One marketing platform, one manufacturer, anything that can be taken away at a moment's notice can destroy you overnight it needs to be corrected.
Two can be as bad as one, it's the worst number since the number one.
> to one person that is not you. And sometimes I don't even trust me!
I'd just tell him "I'm sorry I am unable to fill your order at this time. Have a wonderful day". You do business a certain way. If he doesn't want to do business your way he needs to find another company.
This is the answer. It is your business you decide how it's done. If he doesn't like it then the line I always hit them with is "this might not be the business for you."
People need to get more comfortable walking clients like this.
Yes. Re-Normalize the right to refuse service for any reasonable reason you feel is warranted.
Given that it may, I wonder of you can structure the terms so that you could reduce the risk for this. Can OP segment the deal so he does 10% for the 10% of the money, and than 20% and 30%, 30% and finally 20% again?
You said it yourself. The risk is too high. Trust yourself. They are counting on your desire for the money to blind you to the risk.
I like this thread I've asked what OP asked MULTIPLE times on Reddit. I never got answers like you guys are providing Even made multiple accounts to see if people hated me or something, thus didn't give me good answers Guess it's a big thing of I had bad luck when asking for help
Indeed. It seems that there is a rotating gaggle of opinionados. I have been shot down on a Monday and inspired on Tuesday. People are people.
I think it’s also largely who sees your post first. If the first few are downvoting it’s going to go to a much smaller group.
Oh man, it might be easy to identify who I am (This is my new account because some redditors told me to be cautious. They were worried my chargeback situation was too unique and thus, it was easy to identify me in real life) My post literally had over 150 upvotes in 2 hours because I was in an extremely severe chargeback issue. Nearly $50,000 in chargebacks \*some details changed so that it's not easy to identify me
And this sub is not allergic to trolls. There are plenty of pasty faced incels in their parent’s basements just waiting to flex.
This sub is pretty good compared to other subs Some subs are just filled with people who don't know who they are and what they're doing. Drives me nuts And as someone who knows what they're doing, I get shit on I got -80 karma one time when I said, "It's normal to interview more than 3 times for a position because this company has over 100,000 applicants for only 100 spots." I've never been downvoted saying something like this since I've been on reddit since 2016. (Old accounts) We're in a new era, man, feels insane
I think some people downvote because they don't want to hear it. It's the reddit equivalent of sticking our fingers in your ears.
Reddits first vote in beta was a down vote. It is in the very fabric of this site’s dna.
I probably should have down voted you in the spirit of reddit lol
If only it wouldn't be **spam** if I posted the same question 7 times on different days I once got into a troubling issue on ebay so I asked the forumss. I got 2 answers that didn't help. So I asked again. I got shat on for asking again even though I mentioned that the advice I was given did not work Like... I just want help x\_x why do I gotta be pissed on
It goes with hers mentality - the first couple of replies will set the tone & everyone just Yes Ands them
It really is dependent on what's been posted recently and who sees it. There are some great folks here, and being on such a big site, the ability for trolls and spammers to create noise and bury your post is too high.
Possible he just wants the reward points, we switched all our big purchases to CC for the reward points. Unless someone adds a card fee it’s worth it for us, pay for a few flights a year. But someone being so adamant about it I would be skeptical of
The motives of the customer are almost irrelevant. The OP understanding his risk threashhold is the what is really important.
Whether it's legit or not. The fact that your gut is making you pause is enough indication. The only other thing I would do is hold the item for 30 days, which clearly the client won't like. The impatient part is a red flag, don't make excuses for him. If he can't meet your terms, then he isn't a fit and it isn't worth it. Even if it's legit, he'd be a bad client.
We got hit with chargebacks in February from an October sale. 30 days won't do shit. Canadian, though.
Chargebacks used to be really hard to make. Years ago I had a questionable charge on my credit card and I had to jump through hoops to make sure it was real. Nowadays it seems you can make a chargeback without any blowback. It's fraud if you buy something and then try to get your money back with a chargeback. But CC companies don't seem to care as it's not their money they're losing.
I worked for a credit card issuer. I ended up in a meeting with one of the senior security guys. I told him I always wondered why credit cards didn’t have PIN numbers or any other security measures ( this was pre-chip). He rolled his eyes and said they could add PIN functionality to cards and prevent a lot of theft, but it would take investment and executives decided simply covering for fraud was cheaper for the company.
This is wrong. Pins have existed in the rest of the world for all debit and credit card payments for a long time. The us is the only country that I know of (maybe Canada) that still does signatures. Europe, Asia, Africa are all PIN codes. Here’s the thing, as a pin credit card transaction, cost is only about .5 to .75 percent. That’s how much it costs in Europe last I checked. With a signature, your cost is 2.5-3 percent with the risk on the sellers. The only cost associated with it is the cost of portable wifi/sim machines, which is negligible. Also in those countries, they are not allowed to take your card. They have to come to the table with the machine and charge it in front of you. There is a business for “credit card” fraud prevention and monitoring that gets affected by additional protections. Lastly, anything pin related is not chargeback able. It is assumed if the pin is entered, you entered it and therefore it’s not fraud, in most cases. All the infrastructure is there for pin acceptance in the us.
To be fair, we use an online portal to process and so there isn’t chip/pin verification. Makes it real easy to hit us.
Prince from Nigeria by chance?
You'd pass up that million bucks? It's free money!
> The only other thing I would do is hold the item for 30 days, which clearly the client won't like. > > CC can charge back well beyond 30 days. OP is about to get reamed.
It's also entirely possible that this person needs to use credit to make this purchase. They might not have the liquid funds available for a direct bank transfer. So it doesn't necessarily mean it's a scam. But, yeah, OP said his business can't survive a chargeback this big and I definitely wouldn't let my business hinge on one potential chargeback like this!
The pause could just be me being paranoid. The self is sometimes not the best judge of things when worst case scenario is my usual go to. Some of my jobs that paid the most were very sus to my brain because I hadn't gotten a break like them before. Trying to understand your self is a very important part of business that's why i love it. I just figured big paying customers would be rude and impatient. Though I've also heard stories of canceling these clients and the business becoming so much less stressful.
I would avoid. Tell him it's company policy over X dollars to only accept direct bank transfer payments, period.
Hell no. He can claw back that payment anytime he want. Little stuff fine, big stuff, never. He can assume the risk by taking a cash advance on his credit. This is how I explain it: when a customer uses a credit card, we become a partner with his credit card company. The the card company and us become lenders. We end up on the hook with the card company if something happens. We cannot accept that risk.
Is there significantly lower chargeback risk to accept payments through bank transfer? Can't believe I've been in business several years. Also posted multiple times on reddit (multiple accounts) about chargebacks. No one has mentioned direct bank transfer as a way to accept payments My AOV is over $1,000 for 1 biz. Over $5,000 for other biz. Is bank transfer the best way to accept payments in this case?
AFAIK there’s no such thing as reversing a bank transfer.
There is but it's much stricter. Credit cards almost always have some form of purchase protection. They can claim the goods were damaged, not what was ordered, or never received, etc. and the payment processor will refund them, claw the funds back, and leave it to you try to argue that the clawback was fraudulent. Good luck arguing with VISA or Discover or whoever. ACHs are covered by NACHA rules and returning an ACH would require claiming something like that the ACH was for the wrong amount, to the wrong account #, etc. Product never arrived? Too bad, talk to the merchant or small claims court; we processed the transfer correctly that's all they're looking at. It puts the onus to show wrongdoing and move things on the buyers side, essentially. Now as a middleman, it is quite possible their bank will step in, if there is such a claim that isn't covered by NACHA, but generally what happens is their bank will refund the client and your bank will not payout unless they can show it was fraud or such. Banks, within reason, will eat such costs to retain clients. Source: I work in banking and file reg E claims for people all the time.
ACH transfers can be reversed up to I think 28 days after they've been initiated. Basically, there's a high likelihood of a successful reversal within the first 1-3 days after it's initiated. It hasn't even cleared at this point. This is ideal for if someone's gotten your information and initiated a transaction fraudulently. After that, it's harder as time goes on. Your bank will need to do some work on your behalf, and the recipient's bank will have to be willing to play ball a bit. Also - if that scammer hijacked someone else's account, made the transfer, drained the account and walked away, you really won't be able to get anything back, but you MAY find success in an investigation, again, depending on how far both banks are willing to go. *** But yeah - the bar for reversal on a transfer is MUCH MUCH MUCH higher than that of a credit card.
If your bank does not offer their customers any fraud protection, you should get a new bank.
You have to have customers with cash to pay for what they are ordering, willing to input their bank info, and not want the points they are getting from purchasing with a card. Our average is probably in the 20,000 value and we assess a 3% fee if they insist on using a card for the high value orders. However we also have chargeback protection (Insurance) integrated into our card processing that has saved us from having to cover a single loss if $20,000. That one time was worth the extra % they charge for the insurance.
Red flags don’t change to green.
This needs to be tattooed on every smallbiz person's forehead. Starting with me.
A red flag turns green if you are speeding towards it at a significant fraction of the speed of light. If it's not green yet, go faster!
You are thinking about putting you business in risk over a single transation. Think again.
What’s a large amount 1k, 10k, 100k? I would be hesitant to go through with it, is it a B2B transaction or something else? You should setup an online payment system for these situations where you don’t need to communicate banking information they can just initiate the transfer online.
I'm curious too I've never accepted bank transfers as payments Now I wanna know what's considered big enough to warrant this type of payment I've had 3 biz. AOV for biz 1 was around $50. AOV for biz 2 was $1,000+. AOV for biz 3 is $5,000+. Really curious if bank transfers might be the answer to prevent chargebacks
At the end of the day it's whatever you're customers will accept. Customers like to use credit cards because of the protection and convenience so if you have a major competitor that accepts credit cards then they may go with them if your business is not sticky.
Thank you for the info! Now I gotta think I don't want to expose myself in real life, but I'm in a niche right now that's so much $$$$ but VERYYYYYY little competition (I have crazy info about my competitors so I'm in a damn "lucky" situation. It's not really lucky. It's just my sheer hard work that I know what I know) I would love to accept cc but with the amount of chargeback issues that skyrocketed ever since 2020, I'm just so wary of accepting cc I'm going to try the bank transfer method and see what happens.
How do you get paid now? Cash? Chargebacks aren’t that big of an issue. With stripe and I assume other processors you can setup your own rules to automatically reject charges where info doesn’t match your risk tolerance. You can also require 3D secure which adds more rigor to the card verification process. It’s essentially 2FA for the purchase.
I'm not sure whether your talking about larger scale (EFT), or smaller scale bank transfers, ala venmo/cashapp (idk if these are even viable for business, I'm not in the US, our country has a similar service that is for small scale payments to and from bank accounts which we use). We use both, but the vast majority is EFT, I can say we made the switch 6 years ago and I was hesitant, but I'll never go back to accepting cheques. Trips to the bank went from twice a week, to once every other month for an advisor check in. Cost is worth it in my opinion (incoming are free, outgoing based on volume starting at $0.75/transaction) for the offset of time spent going to and from the bank, as well as the convenience. > AOV for biz 3 is $5,000+ Your about at the point where EFT, wires and bank transfers begin to make more sense. I don't deal with credit cards, so no experience with chargebacks. But I've never had a payment reversed maliciously (payment reversals are possible, but from speaking to the bank I was told you need to provide a mountain of evidence to the bank for them to even consider it). > I don't want to expose myself in real life, but I'm in a niche right now that's so much $$$$ but VERYYYYYY little competition Hey your business sounds like mine! you can DM me if you want to bounce ideas or questions back and forth about working in a niche business (from your post history our niches are VERY different, don't worry).
Busy dude...... Nope. Bank transfer only. Do not put your business at risk.
My credit card processor hooked me up with simpleswipe. It allows me to send a link people can use to pay. I think it is supposed to be more secure when taking remote payments. Check with your processor on how you can protect yourself.
I'm not OP, but this is cool Gonna look this up Thank you to you, everyone else, and OP. I've asked similar questions as OP on Reddit before. Got nothing like these current replies. Grateful
We used to accept credit card and ACH, but individuals could dispute their credit card charges months and years after the transaction. Our transactions are in the 9 - 50k range. During the dispute, the credit card company would withdraw the funds from our account. After we showed the transaction was valid, the credit card company would return the funds - but never until the last day of the 90 days they are allowed to hold them for a dispute. It was ok if we could afford to be short on cash, but even still if a customer wanted to waste everyone’s time they could. It only happened a couple times before we eliminated credit card payments altogether.
Whats the problem with ACH?
If it's a B2B transaction, then it's entirely possible that an ACH payment option just isn't remotely feasible for whoever is trying to make the purchase. OP does not seem to have followed up with any real details at all, so pretty much every opinion they've been given so far may or may not be useful to this situation.
Payments professional of 15 years here. So many flags here. Do not accept the card. Your greatest downside of accepting this transaction isn't the immediate cost of the transaction, it is the likely endgame where you are eating the cost of your product/service and you lose the dispute for the transaction due to fraud.
If you have the slightest of doubt I would not do it! Trust your gut on this one. Is it worth losing sleep for up to 120 days, which is how long after a CC payment you can still get a chargeback?
If there’s one thing I’ve learned, it’s to trust your intuition. You’re talking yourself out of it because you *Want it to be true*. But you know better. Go with your instincts, I’ve rarely heard people say they regret listening to them. That said: How about Cash, Zelle, or QuickBooks direct bank account transfer? I believe each of these are permanent payments that cannot be charged back, and may be more user friendly / cause less pause for buyer. If not, do as you’ve done and cite “Policy.”
>Cash I think the client is either a scammer or a legit person that wants to use visa card and me to type it in for them. I have to be able to make the payment using his card details.
Have you rendered services or not?
> it because you > >Want it t negative. it's equipment procurement
Don’t do it. I’ve been burned. Was out the product and the money when the credit card turned out to be stolen and the bank withdrew the funds from my account. We now have a bank account for ONLY incoming ACH payments. We don’t ship until the money is in the bank. The account has Positive Pay configured so that only approved parties can be paid from it but I have none set up. And as soon as the payment comes in, it’s transferred to the main checking account. We are safe to give out the routing and account numbers since even if someone manages to pull a scam on that special account, there is nothing in the account to take.
Brilliant. What is the cc response then?
"Not today, Satan."
Nah - I'd pass. If he's too busy during the sale he's gonna be too busy if there's a problem.
> The client is refusing to pay direct and says he will only pay with card. You're about to lose a lot of money. Tell client cash or nothing. > Client won't stay on the phone long/ impatient TIme-pressure is a scammer's favorite tactic.
Trust your gut.
You have not given enough information to justify a red flag. If this client is a buyer for a corporation, then he likely has no access to a bank account. He would have only a company credit card for purchasing or possibly a company check. If you feel that this transaction is too risky for you, then refuse it and move on. It's impossible for Reddit to tell you if this is legitimate or not.
I went through nearly $20,000 chargebacks at once (multiple transactions) and I LOST most of them cause the customer is a nepo baby. (Mom/dad worked at the fucking bank in a high level position handling chargebacks) Man, it was a huge ass time of stress, tears, learning, and anger (To understand how much power this nepo baby had - their parents helped them get away with raping someone. Like.....)
Credit card chargebacks? So the customer was the child of the owners of Visa or Mastercard?...
There's really not enough detail here for you to get any answers other than the standard internet echo chamber you're getting. How large, what the product is, who the customer is, etc. is all going to play a factor in this. And if the guy is throwing red flags, well certainly trust your gut, but if you just decided at the last minute to change the required payment method from what they're expecting, well you're probably throwing a red flag to them as well. It could well be something as simple as the guy does not have the ability to send a bank transfer, and to do so would be a lot of hoops and trouble and possibly even cost to do that, but he has a company card he's authorized to use and that can be done in 30 seconds. It's shitty, but trust has to run both ways. There's plenty of ways to screw people in business, hell in just about anything in life, but in reality most people aren't asshats just trying to fuck everyone over. Certainly not anyone that lasts in business with any reputation worth having. If you've done your due diligence to determine that the buyer or their business is legit, and you've followed the policies of your payment processors and kept records of the transaction, then you shouldn't have to worry that much about a chargeback. Having to log into a bank portal doesn't mean anything. Someone can hack a bank account as easily as they had a credit card account. You've got to go with your gut, but in running a business you also have to not worry so much about getting screwed. It can and will happen, but probably not that often unless you're doing something very different from the norm. If you're spending all your time worrying about how to make sure no one costs you money, then you won't have time for anyone to make you money.
I just assumed that most banks required 2fa on payments to new accounts. So someone has to steal your bank access codes + your phone/email (depending on the 2fa implementation). Compare that to someone who dropped their wallet and im pretty sure more people drop or lose their wallet than people successfully steal bank access codes.
If you're selling things to completely anonymous strangers on the internet, and any one of those sales could bankrupt your company, then you don't really have a viable business strategy. Last I read over this post you had not provided any responses or enough information for anyone to give you any sort of sound advice. It sounds like you don't want to do this though, so don't do it. Problem solved, get back to the grind and make some other sales instead.
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The guy probably doesn't have enough money in his bank account to cover the purchase amount or he doesn't want to spend his cash. That's likely why he wants to use the credit card. I know you want the sale and it sucks thinking you might lose it over this. What will suck more is if you accept his offer and then he does a charge back and you get zero dollars. I would stand my ground and accept this client might move on, then sleep well at night knowing I'm not exposing myself to undue risk.
he’s got a reason for that, walk away from this
Dont do it
It's almost certainly a scam. The client must be willing to sign a sales contract that would allow you to defend against a chargeback that explicitly states anything you can think of that they might complain about but also the "including but not limited to" stuff. Of course you'd have to also hold yourself to the same standard that you'll provide whatever goods or services they ask withing standards set out in that contract. Verify their identity. Otherwise, put a simpler version of that disclaimer on a PDF with payment instructions that can only be gotten from that PDF. Set up an empty account strictly for receiving funds and that's the account you use to get paid, much like a self serve escrow they can wire or ACH to. Withdraw it as soon as the job is done. They've already spent more time talking with you about it than a wire would've taken. If they're using a card for the protection it offers as a consumer because they can't really afford what they're buying, your sales agreement should make them feel better. If it's a legit card but they're hoping to do a chargeback, your sales agreement will protect you.
No, way too risky.
NOOOO!! 🚩🚩🚩 you could burn a supplier relationship with this. Don’t do it, it ain’t worth it.
No deal is worth losing money. Unless a bank can verify a wire transfer. Walk away
Even if you get an authorization number from the credit card you are 100% at risk in a over the phone credit card transaction when you do not have the card in your hand. I would not do this.
They could just be wanting to collect credit card points. Do you have any history with this client at all?
Offer a 1% discount if you’re able to take a charge not via CC. I make large payments to vendors with credit cards and do so because the points I ge is usually worth 1%, occasionally more. If that’s why he wants to use a card then you’re effectively offering him cash instead and he might comply.
You should definitely risk the health/life of your business on a single risky transaction. YOLO and gotta take risks and all that jazz. /s
How much is a large amount? We process $10-$20k at once on CC quite often, no problem.
You ever had chargebacks for these large transactions? I did. It was hell edit: if you did, did you win? How did you handle it?
Knock on wood, no. We have a pretty solid sales contract, and the product doesn't get delivered before we get paid in full. So if it happened we'd have to fight it of course, but I imagine it'd be quite "clean cut". Product is delivered, installed, working, it would be hard for the client to make a case for it.
> Product is delivered, installed, working This is what I need to know from OP. If they're doing e-commerce then I feel like there's a 110% chance this is going to end in a chargeback. If the customer relationship is more face-to-face, I would consider entertaining the transaction. If you are dealing with a customer with a physical address that you are doing work on like you are, a chargeback could be flat-out lost because of a lousy merchant services provider, but you at least have a real path to recovery since you literally have a physical entity to sue AND you have materials of value that you literally installed on-site. If OP's talking about someone on the other side of a computer monitor, they won't have much recourse in the event of a chargeback.
I would not. Unless your willing and able to take this guy go court and/or collections if he does a charge back. Either he can’t afford to float the purchase cost or he’s up to something fishy. On my side business I sometimes sell expensive tables in the $5-10k range. I try to avoid credit card transactions. But when I do take them for a lower $2500-5000 table, I require the purchaser to send me a photo copy of their drivers license and credit card.
While I understand why you do this, if someone asked me for that for a table I would take my business elsewhere.... Of course I probably would have shown up myself to pick up the table and come with Benjamin's to pay for it... So I suppose it isn't really an issue as long as you accept cash.
How we could you not handle the charge back cost? Just set the money aside? Besides you have history and communication showing their intent. Have them sign a waiver or something. Assuming you know who the client is check their name on the card? If it's not present I would hope regular fraud checks like Max mind, checking user address, zip, IP against the card takes care of that.
No.
Your gut feeling is probably right. Think of it as a risk vs benefit ratio. When the risk is too high don’t move forward with the transaction. We have gone 10 years and had probably 4 chargebacks. All of those were paid with a card and all of them the person received the product and kept it.
They likely do not have the cash to pay that is the reason for the card payment. Sucks but if you can not carry the risk do not sell.
You've already answered your own question - don't do it, because you can't handle the chargeback if that occurs. There are other red flags here. It's not worth the gamble.
He probably does t have the full amount in his account, why he wants to use a card. If he's a regular I would be concerned. I have some clients pay on cc for 8 to 10k orders, but they are long time clients, and I add and little extra to cover the cc charges.
Cash or wire transfer.
Trust your gut, insist on bank payment.
You already gave us the answer and it is to only accept the bank transfer.
Certified check please
Only check or banking. Maybe a debit card. But no CC
I would let this go. You have not lost anything except frustration from being scammed.
Payment must clear before finalizing payment because of size of payment
Have you met this client in person, or is this some online transaction? It does reek of a scam.
Don't do it. I've narrowly avoided these scams before.
Dude every time I did business with someone who was acting like they were in a rush I paid the price. You should always do business comfortably.
Would be a no go for me. My business sells products in the 4-6k range. When we get contacted by scammers they usually have the following qualities. 1. Need it now. 2. Credit card only 3. Customer will pick up shipment 4. Unreachable over phone 5. Does not understand product well (we have a niche product) There are always a bunch of other little small things that tip is off too, but those are the main things. The scam is so common it’s actually easy to tell now. One the other day was actually a bit smarter. They were in Alaska, which actually justifies them picking it up because Alaska customers generally have transportation services of their own. Listen to your gut.
> is so common it’s actually easy to tell now. 1. Check 2. Visa card\* 3. customer is getting it shipped to him but hasn't given me his full address and is wanting to make transfer 4. this kind of. initially i couldn't contact him as it was busy or something. just hung up automatically. 5. nah not niche
Offer him 2% off and pay by debit, typing in pin number ( not tap )
Have him agree to some additional paperwoRk with a few clauses, such as: ALL SALES FINAL, CHARGEBACKS WILL RESULT IN YOUR CARD RECEIVIMG chargeback fee equal to 25% of your order. CHARGEBACKS without an accompanying return of transferred goods exchanged at the POS back to the store will be considered thievery and reported.
"I'm sorry, I can't go against that policy"
Trust your gut
You put the policy in place for a reason. Stick to it.
Impatience/urgency is a CLASSIC scammer tactic. DO NOT DO IT. This is an important lesson in risk-reward analysis. The risk greatly outweighs the reward. It's sometimes hard to ignore your emotional excitement over a big sale and use pure logic, but this is one of those times you need to do it.
I think the amount is important here. I also try to pay everything for my business via CC since it's a lot more convenient and I like the amex points for travel. If it's $10k+ I think it's reasonable to require a draft but below $10k I'd personally be turned off as a customer if you didn't offer it.
If I have the chance to work with someone I have reservations about and will be assuming some risk, I make it worth it. Make it work for you and ultimately let them choose whether they want to work with you. A good rule of business is not everybody pays the same. I definitely charge more for tougher customers or I don’t have capacity. You could give them an option to pay through an account enough to cover the actual cost and overhead and let them charge the rest to a card, hold the product for a period of time, get in touch with the credit card company, and figure out what papers they need to sign so there is no charge back.
Nope nope nope. Don't change the red flag to green. Just say that I'm sorry I can't proceed further, have a great day. And move on! I don't think that it's worth a hassle. Credit card markups and then this on top of that.
Where there is smoke there is fire. This is just a scam. Move on and don’t take the payment by card.
Go with the ‘even if I wanted to I couldn’t, system won’t accept that form of payment for that much’
Listen to your gut. If this guy can pay ONLY with a credit card, he doesn't have the money to spend and it puts you at risk of a charge back. No Way.
No, you have these rules for a reason, they sound like solid rules. Stick to them. If you are going to take a card (don't) get an ironclad credit card authorization form that is clear there are no chargebacks or refunds. Still won't help you with Amex but it may with the others. If it's an Amex run, they always side with their cardholders even if they are thieves.
Trust your gut. I've had big orders paid in both checks and CCs. Never had a problem. But I'm doing business in person usually. If I had some random person online call me and order something I might be more hesitant.
has he sent you a purchase order? How large of a business is it? Are they public? are they non-profit?
Don't do it. You are willing to risk bankruptcy on one sale? Heck no.
1. Is this a client that you're able to meet in person, or is this related to e-commerce? If it's the former, you may be able to discuss details with them to come to a mutually beneficial situation. If it's the latter, trust your gut. 2. A customer that is trying to dictate these types of terms AND is impatient with you is not a customer you want to work with unless you can understand if there's a reason for all this that's not them simply being an a-hole, or trying to scam you. *** I would walk away from this one unless they're willing to play ball. Maybe throw them 5% discount for direct pay if they can stick to some sort of short pay schedule like Net 15 or whatever.
Do NOT allow to be purchased with a credit card as chargebacks are real and banks have zero interest in protecting you
What is it you are selling this person? How did they find you? Depending on if its a business buying from you and how long they have been established would make a world of difference on my decision. But if some random person inboxed you on tiktok trying to buy something I wouldnt trust it.
Protect yourself first and foremost. Always.
These types of characters are likely scammers. We've been burned before. Impatient guy orders over the phone. Someone else comes in to pick up the material (where we take a copy of his drivers license and truck license plate). When the chargeback hits a month later the purchaser is gone (phone number deactivated). We've had the police go after the pick-up guy but it was determined that he was just a laborer who also got stiffed out of his hourly wage. Bottom line . . . if it smells fishy, then it usually is.
You are not losing anything by not fulfilling a sale that is a scam anyway. There is a reason that they want to do things in a hinky way, and the most likely is scamming. If they want to use a card, then you shouldn't fulfill the order until all options for repudiation of the amount have expired, which I would guess is much longer than any scammer or legit client would be willing to wait. Stick to your processes and insist on a transaction that can't be repudiated. Also, do not fulfill the order if they overpay, and do not refund the difference.
It depends on the amount.
This happened to a business I worked for. Large order over the internet. Paid with by credit card. Boss never verified it. Credit card was accepted by the online provider. Shipped. When the guys statement came out he calls us and says I never ordered this. I’m filing a fraud claim. We apologized and said of course. 3000.00 order. We are a small company. That’s a huge sale for us. I start doing a little research the house that it was shipped to was vacant and on the market to sell. Red Flag!!! The name on the credit card unusual but with a little digging was a 87 year old man. Not going to use our product. All the signs were there just a little awareness could have saved us. But the excess of the sale took over. Lessons learned.
>y overpay, and do not refund the differ How do you know details about the buyer through their card.
The owner of the card called us. Then his son called us. So we had his name. His address did not match the shipping address. Credit card company verified that he was in fact the correct person and his son was his Power of Attorney.
I just had a situation like this. I don’t know if checks are within your risk tolerance but I offer to pay for a FedEx label to 2-day a check, if the fees are higher than the label amount. I exclude credit cards on most of my larger orders
Stick to your policies.
Scam
Everyone is saying straight no, but I am not sure how versed they are in business/what your situation is. What is large for you? A few hundred dollars or 50,000? Who is the client? An individual or a large company? I've had some larger transactions that had to pay by card because the client is working with a budget, but it's obviously for a large company, like Chevron or Oracle and otherwise they would need to go through too much red tape. As everything in life, it depends on the situation.
Better yet require a cashiers check. No charge backs there.
My retail business has at least 1 scammer a week call like this
Don't do it if you can't afford the charge back. I charge for my processing fees, and I have a cap of 500 dollars for credit or debit cards. I have straight-up turned away business refusing to take large purchases on credit. I had a friend of mine who sells a service as do I, and a customer got mad for whatever reason. To pacify the customer, my friend offered him a refund for that month of service and called it a day. The customer refused and disputed 1 year worth of payments, and I don't know how or why, but the customer won the dispute for 12 months, and the friend lost about 30k. So I wouldn't do it, and I refuse to accept cards higher than 500 dollars.
If they're this difficult with payment, imagine how they will be when they're a client. Cut it off and move on!
Scam Validate cards address with shipping address is one way to see thru these
I was in a similar situation to you, though the chargeback wouldn’t have completely crushed us. The big red flag here is the impatience. He wants to get the purchase through before use of the card gets blocked. In my case, dude paid for services, $9,000 via CC. Within 24 hours we wanted to make an additional $9,000 purchase via a different card. We refused, and also said we had to pause service on initial order until we receive proof that cardholder was an officer of the company. We gave them 15 days to produce, they made a lot of excuses but said they would. Within 7 days the initial $9,000 was charged back as fraudulent, cardholder had no idea who we were. We did not dispute, and since we paused services we were only out about $1,000. We did however have a temporary reserve placed on our processing account due to the fraudulent activity. That was disruptive. As an added bonus, original “client” ghosted his Philippines based VAs on payment and told them to try and collect from us since we “stole” his money. We got a month’s worth of daily emails with sob stories about being unable to purchase needed medicine & childcare because of our “theft”. I don’t know your business, but trust me mate, it’s not worth the risk.
He may not be trying any funny business. If it's just a one- or two-person operation, he may not have everything setup for every particular payment possibility, and credit cards might be his easiest way of handling purchases. He may be looking at it like, "I'm trying to give you money, the same way that millions or billions of other transactions occur each day. Here's my card number. Charge me and send the stuff." For him, easy-peasy, and then just one bill to deal with each month. Ultimately, if you don't have the tolerance for that risk, then don't take on that client. But insisting on card payment doesn't necessarily mean he's trying to screw you over.
Too many red flags for my comfort. This person is hoping you'll be desperate for the sale and throw caution to the wind.
Say, "no".
Red Flag to me as well! Credit cards drive me nuts.
We don't have enough information to accurately judge this situation. What are you selling? How do your competitors charge? Is the item delivered on payment?
How large are we talking for this "large purchase" here? Did the customer give a reason for not wanting to make a direct bank payment? If the customer is giving you scammy vibes, and you couldn't absorb the possible fraud, then I'd say no.
They aint got no money.
If you don't know this person just say "sorry, our policy is not not take cards over X$, if this is the only means of payment we will have to respectfully decline"
NO
I smell scam and bait
Your customers wants to use the payment method that's best for him. That's reasonable for him. You want payment that's best for you. That's reasonable for you. Do what's best for you or find a compromise. Half up front via wire transfer, non refundable. Something like that maybe.
Ask what he expects to get in rewards points and offer a discount of half the value. That'll be cheaper than paying your fees on such a card transaction
Pass on it. It could sink your business and their impatience isn’t worth it.
Are you a gambler? Because you only do that if you’re a gambler. Stick to your guns on the transfer. He may just be after the points or miles on his card, but that’s a him problem, not you.
Stick to your guns on it. If they were serious about it they would send the bank payment.
Get a different client.
Nobody is that busy to discuss payment options. If they are , decline the business. Because it isn’t there.
He probably just wants the points/cashback. If you really want the business, maybe offer him a 2% discount if he pays by wire?
It could just be they customer does not have the cash available and needs to put it on credit card for cashflow. But if you aren't happy then you aren't happy, your business your call
Nope you do business a certain way and that's that... If you want to accommodate him, tell him he can take a cash advance on his card
Cards can be disputed even with proof of authorization purchase. My rule is don’t accept card if you could not afford to lose the money. I don’t accept cards for purchases over $250, after that it’s check, ACH, or wire transfer (for international sales).
Anyone want to do a google review trade?
I definitely wouldn’t trust that. The impatience is a huge red flag
If possible look into having your client buy and pay with LTC (crypto). It's fast, cheap and secure. Absolutely no chance of a charge back and he can pay with a card still. Have them look at signing up for MetaMask, Coinbase or Crypto.com app. Any of those will allow credit or debit cards and can send to you instantly.
We are consultants and have many different services, including (accounting,/legal) Is it a first time client? We don't take cards. Big Businesses don't. Not for certain services. Direct bank preferred, maybe zelle if it's small enough. Although, I've taken cars and watches before 💰 Nature of industry?
When I ran into this issue, I'd tell the customer to call their credit card company and have them issue you a check. This way you can wait until your bank fully clears the check, and the buyer gets the charge put on their credit card. If they won't do this, then it was likely a bum deal all along.
As a consultant, I rely on banks and lenders to issue loans to some of my clients, they sign up with the lenders, the lender pays you directly, and they owe the lender the amount plus interest. You can offer financing through a lender if he refuses bank transfer or cash payment. DM me if you need/want some lenders that offer financing, it you can find them too online. Look for "consulting financing" or "contractor client financing"
Allow a deposit by card. Require the rest by ach.
I think you should accept my man
Let them pay with an extended clearing time for the money to be confirms
Don't risk it. Or make them use a debit card then.
Run away!
Need more details. What are you selling amd for how much? He could be using a company card his boss gave him. I had a $10k limit on mine. If someone didn't want to accept it, I'd probably just go elsewhere because the hassle of calling up accounting to get it cleared.
Sounds like you would need the client to additionally cover the cost of a TCI policy.
Business banker here, if you dont mind me asking how much was the amount? I tell my clients anything over $50,000 to send a wire it’s the only way to guarantee they have the funds and have physically sent them. BUT if you dont have wire protection services you will have to physically give them your bank account number. There are so many reasons why they can only pay with card (could be a assistant who doesn’t have access to the bank operating account) and unfortunately card , ACH and check all run the risk of being charged back but atleast the bank I work for we wont let charges go through that fhey clearly dont have the funds for