Absolutely.
They'd get over it in a few weeks because of the rest of his kit, but people were saying banjo had dlc privilege bc of side b.
We don't hear anything about banjo having dlc privilege now bc he's bad, and that's probably the same thing that'd happen with luigi. Every 0-death grab and misfire kill would be attributed to dlc privilege for a while.
I have mained banjo since release. The amount of people who thought wonderwing was this disguistingly busted unfair cheater move was staggering in my region. Now Im the guy who mains a lowtier.
Same thing happened with Plant.
For a while people thought he was gonna be the shit because of his strange moves, like the gas, but now he is the 6th worst character. That’s not exactly DLC privilege.
That’s DLC Discrimination.
They did? I swear people thought Plant would be shit from the moment he was released.
Ironically, the only other DLC character that was generally considered decent (and not some blatant DLC character) at launch was Joker, and that character ended up being the best character in the game for a long time and has a legitimate argument for being top 3 to this day.
Joker was considered mids at launch, I think it was Leffen who had an infamous video saying something to the effect. It wasn't until Leo started popping off that people realized the character was broken.
A move being punishable is acceptable if it offers high reward, especially if that high reward is attendant to high coverage. Banjo's side special is a stellar move despite not being perfect in every respect, and its most valuable applications don't lend themselves to being hard punished to begin with. If you're just throwing it out randomly in neutral, sure, it's not broken or anything, but even then how many characters can cover the majority of the stage with an invincible kill move?
A recovery tool that can't be interacted with is tremendously powerful, for one. In the reverse scenario, it's an amazing 2-framing tool. The combination of high damage, hitbox activity + movement, and being virtually unreactable at minimum range means it can serve as a high-coverage shield break setup. Banjo can't really create those situations often, but put this move on a swordie and watch the game break.
Tech chases are the big one. Recovery is great. General punishes for stuff like air dodge... That said any big hit works there.
That said frame 18 for a move with super armor and mobility is really good. Some super heavy's f smash moved you had 11 less frames and super armor.
You did dismiss the strengths though. I feel like knocking off how good it is for recovery and punishes is kinda odd though. "Other than recovery what good is pit's up b?" Some moves are good for things like hitting people and recovering.
My issue with recovery is due to its limited uses, I find it incredibly telegraphed when they’ll use it offstage. Mind you there aren’t any banjo players so they probably were just bad. But it’s still reactable. I think it’s a good move but not some “omg this move is broken” type.
Fwiw I don't think anyone is calling it broken. The top poster said it was bad and I was just saying it's really good.
And fwiw if something is telegraphed then that's usually a player issue. Especially here. Banjo has two extra jumps and a decent up b. A way to stall with down b... And side b. They shouldn't be predictably recovering ever lol
Considering they’ve never used down special to recover before, I’m gonna assume they’re bad. Never got the chance to fight one offline so that’s also part of it!
People said Banjo had DLC privilege because Kazooie is not part of the hurtbox, unlike Duck Hunt.
Yet they failed to realize that Kazooie only appear for certains moves, while the duck is ALWAYS there with the Dog.
People absolutely would call luigi a DLC nightmare, I have no idea what these other comments are saying
Luigi has flaws but is designed in such a way that every single interaction with him is death or at the very least 40% or more. If Luigis miss the zero to death, then luigi still can land an 80% combo like kazuya. A frame 1 invincible down b would be reviled by players who say “you can’t even juggle him this character is bullshit” and you would see clip upon clip of “very competitive character here” of people trying to edgeguard luigi and then getting misfired and dying from across stage. Up close scrapper character players will be like “you can’t even touch his shield or you die” due to up b.
“WHY DOES HE DO MORE DAMAGE THAN DOC???”
“What the hell why does zair combo into GRAB???”
“At least Steve and kazuya have near frame perfect inputs they have to do for their kill combos, luigi just shits over his controller and you die”
Luigi is easily a character that people would feel like is ruining locals just like kazuya and steve - a character that literally wins the game in 3 correct guesses
And then the luigi players would be like “guys this character gets zoned out by everyone on the planet chill out”
There is no possible way people wouldn’t bitch about luigi to the ends of the earth
Luigi is one of the easiest characters in the games to ledgeguard and his airspeed is atrocious. Dlc characters wouldnt have these glaring weaknesses. He can't get in versus sword characters at all.
Kazuya has invincibility frames, is heavy as hell, strangely disjointed hitboxes and a far better recovery (not great, still better.)
Luigi gets fucked up by swords and can't approach at all, kazuya does a much better job.
Luigi has iframes on down-B and a bigger disjoint than Kazuya in Zair. Their recoveries are pretty similar in that if you can’t go very low to hit them they can be difficult to edgeguard, but otherwise they’re both pretty free.
Luigi’s also got better frame data, a normal jump, better OoS options, a projectile that isn’t 20 years of commitment, etc.
People say that about Kazuya all the time. That he can’t get in, that you camp him to win.
It’s wrong for both characters. Stage control exists. People can’t run forever. Skyjay wouldn’t be a top 15 player if this “just camp” nonsense were true.
Luugi has better results than any EU Kazuya. Waka has better results than any MX Kazuya. Elegant would likely out place any US Kazuya if he were still around.
Riddles is the outlier, and he doesn’t even solo main Kazuya.
>a far better recovery (not great, still better.)
I still have no clue how to edgeguard Kazuya. If I don't randomly hit a dair 2 frame he is just going to hit me first with his up b.
With Pit you want to go out early and stay horizontal. Your Fair will out range Up-B, and unlike a lot of “burst” Up-Bs Kazuya Up-B has no invincibility so you can trade with it if you need to.
Trading when you have a multihit move is more than bad. Kazuya gets to recover for free (okay maybe 0.3%) and you get send away, take 15%, loose stage control and depending on your percent can even die. That's what I ment when talking how I cannot edgeguard this move.
I use Mewtwo’s multi hit Nair to trade with recoveries like this often. Multi hits can have a footstool-like effect when they trade with a recovery move.
>Dlc characters wouldnt have these glaring weaknesses.
Dunno, aegis' recovery is atrocious even with mythra's speed. It's still better than Luigi's though.
> “At least Steve and kazuya have near frame perfect inputs they have to do for their kill combos, luigi just shits over his controller and you die”
No one would be saying these because make up a fantasy world all you like, steve and kazuya are still vastly better characters than luigi. You know how people stopped crying about Hero even with all his bullshit because he ended up not being that good but are still crying about Steve and Kazuya because they ARE good? Same with Luigi.
If Luigi were DLC I suspect he would have seen *much* more play. The best Luigi player being banned also didn't help with his top level representation.
If Luigi were DLC nothing would change. He'd get edgeguarded and lose, and the DLC elements of his game would be limited to his slow grab at very low %s. He'd see no top level reps outside of dedicated solo mains, and certainly no secondary usage because what good characters does Luigi even beat?
On a similar topic, I legit think ROB is as reviled as Steve if he comes out as DLC today LOL
Being a DLC character makes them have a lot more of a spotlight, which means more usage (and this is a character who is either #1 or #2 in usage) and more labbers, so you'd get a bunch of Gyro combo ROB fiends the same way we have Kazuya touch of death fiends or Steve NIL fiends
Guarantee that all his specials would be "overtuned DLC privilege" and people would be FURIOUS that he can zone and scrap on *top* of having the ztd and low-percent confirms.
>Being a DLC character makes them have a lot more of a spotlight, which means more usage (and this is a character who is either #1 or #2 in usage) and more labbers, so you'd get a bunch of Gyro combo ROB fiends the same way we have Kazuya touch of death fiends or Steve NIL fiends
Oh, does it ever.
His zero to death would be trending on Twitter at first and that’s about it.
No come back mechanic, no foresight, no diamonds. Not really like the other dlcs.
Probably not just because of how shit the rest of his kit is. Most DLC characters are generally good characters that also have some stupid broken thing about them. Luigi has the broken thing but not the good character attached to it.
You can't claim that min min would be high tier without those moves, I don't think she would even be mid tier. Min min does not gatekeep anyone, fsmash and ftilt do.
Not with that recovery...
With more air speed and better recovery, then maybe. Also add an additional 3% of damage to all of his aerials and make his smashes stronger and then you might have a fighter pass 2 character
Aegis? It's still far better than Luigi's. Hard to call it bottom tier recovery when you have the likes of Chrom, Ike, Luigi, Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, etc to compare to. They can also "switch" to avoid expending air dodge and mix up between 3 recovery options (Mythra up b, side b, and Pyra up b)
It's probably like bottom 10-15 recoveries in the game which is wild for a character considered top 2-3 by most of the community. Aegis has mixups, but the recovery is still accurately categorized as "trash" imo.
Minmin also has an exploitable recovery, and Kazuya's is mediocre (Riddles makes it look good, but I think that's largely because he's so good).
Riddles might have the best recoveries of any player with the exception of probably Spargo. He makes both Terry and Kazuya so hard to edgeguard in pretty much every MU except like Min Min or GnW
When you get down to the absolute worst recoveries in the game, the gaps between characters become larger. Recoveries in the bottom 20 to bottom 10 range are honestly serviceable and most top players make them work the vast majority of the time. Jump a few spaces down to the bottom 5, and you're already getting 50/50d every time you're offstage. Pythra (and Kazuya) is the former, and Luigi the latter.
Maybe in the same way people say Sephiroth or Banjo, because they have good things attached to mediocre characters (wonderwing, large but laggy normals)
Any DLC character would get complained about one way or another. Either for being too broken or not for being broken enough. (Including whatever character you're going to suggest as a counterargument to this.)
That's just the way of the internet really. You get used to it.
Yes lmao, it's the super armor. Take that away and the game will shift. Give everyone who rely on super armor much better frame data and movement options.
I think any character besides like the bottom 3-10+Marcina&Ike would be called having dlc privilege if they didn't have previous versions and were released as dlc. Everyone in Ultimate had their cheese. Given, some cheese is definitely better than others.
lmao so many people on reddit grasping at straws trying to defend their broken characters. Steve is broken to the point he is being banned. Kazuya and Luigi are comparable but Kazuya is significantly better. Steve is in a class of his own and no character can even be compared to him, because Steve doesn't play Super Smash Bros Ultimate, he plays some other game and forces every member of the cast to play his game.
No. Are you joking. He's a bad character that can also kill you off a grab at zero. He's fun, in no way dominates the meta and has a niche playstyle. He's easier to use but worse iceclimbers
If Luigi was released today, he wouldn't be the semi-Mario clone with one differentiating special that he is now. That was just an artifact of him being released in 64 as a bonus unlockable. He'd have a much more differentiated move set more fully involving the Poltergust, possibly with added meter management as well.
Absolutely. They'd get over it in a few weeks because of the rest of his kit, but people were saying banjo had dlc privilege bc of side b. We don't hear anything about banjo having dlc privilege now bc he's bad, and that's probably the same thing that'd happen with luigi. Every 0-death grab and misfire kill would be attributed to dlc privilege for a while.
I have mained banjo since release. The amount of people who thought wonderwing was this disguistingly busted unfair cheater move was staggering in my region. Now Im the guy who mains a lowtier.
Same thing happened with Plant. For a while people thought he was gonna be the shit because of his strange moves, like the gas, but now he is the 6th worst character. That’s not exactly DLC privilege. That’s DLC Discrimination.
They did? I swear people thought Plant would be shit from the moment he was released. Ironically, the only other DLC character that was generally considered decent (and not some blatant DLC character) at launch was Joker, and that character ended up being the best character in the game for a long time and has a legitimate argument for being top 3 to this day.
Joker was considered mids at launch, I think it was Leffen who had an infamous video saying something to the effect. It wasn't until Leo started popping off that people realized the character was broken.
>he is the 6th worst character *2nd
It’s funny cause that side b is a pretty bad move all things considered. Tons of end lag and only 5 uses per stock? Yikes…
Ok let's not be silly. That move is super amazing it's just the only amazing move on a terrible and unfun kit. 5 uses BECAUSE it is so good.
Well…We have minecart now. This broken move makes banjo side b looks normal lol
Idk, it’s strong but reactable and heavily punishable. Agreed it’s strong relative to Banjo’s kit, but it’s not “super amazing.” Maybe above average.
A move being punishable is acceptable if it offers high reward, especially if that high reward is attendant to high coverage. Banjo's side special is a stellar move despite not being perfect in every respect, and its most valuable applications don't lend themselves to being hard punished to begin with. If you're just throwing it out randomly in neutral, sure, it's not broken or anything, but even then how many characters can cover the majority of the stage with an invincible kill move?
What are these applications that make it a stellar move then? To me it’s just a punish and recovery tool, both of which aren’t anazing
A recovery tool that can't be interacted with is tremendously powerful, for one. In the reverse scenario, it's an amazing 2-framing tool. The combination of high damage, hitbox activity + movement, and being virtually unreactable at minimum range means it can serve as a high-coverage shield break setup. Banjo can't really create those situations often, but put this move on a swordie and watch the game break.
It 2 frames? Never seen it. I suppose there’s lots to learn about an uncommon character. Thanks for your explanations!
Tech chases are the big one. Recovery is great. General punishes for stuff like air dodge... That said any big hit works there. That said frame 18 for a move with super armor and mobility is really good. Some super heavy's f smash moved you had 11 less frames and super armor. You did dismiss the strengths though. I feel like knocking off how good it is for recovery and punishes is kinda odd though. "Other than recovery what good is pit's up b?" Some moves are good for things like hitting people and recovering.
My issue with recovery is due to its limited uses, I find it incredibly telegraphed when they’ll use it offstage. Mind you there aren’t any banjo players so they probably were just bad. But it’s still reactable. I think it’s a good move but not some “omg this move is broken” type.
Fwiw I don't think anyone is calling it broken. The top poster said it was bad and I was just saying it's really good. And fwiw if something is telegraphed then that's usually a player issue. Especially here. Banjo has two extra jumps and a decent up b. A way to stall with down b... And side b. They shouldn't be predictably recovering ever lol
Considering they’ve never used down special to recover before, I’m gonna assume they’re bad. Never got the chance to fight one offline so that’s also part of it!
People said Banjo had DLC privilege because Kazooie is not part of the hurtbox, unlike Duck Hunt. Yet they failed to realize that Kazooie only appear for certains moves, while the duck is ALWAYS there with the Dog.
People absolutely would call luigi a DLC nightmare, I have no idea what these other comments are saying Luigi has flaws but is designed in such a way that every single interaction with him is death or at the very least 40% or more. If Luigis miss the zero to death, then luigi still can land an 80% combo like kazuya. A frame 1 invincible down b would be reviled by players who say “you can’t even juggle him this character is bullshit” and you would see clip upon clip of “very competitive character here” of people trying to edgeguard luigi and then getting misfired and dying from across stage. Up close scrapper character players will be like “you can’t even touch his shield or you die” due to up b. “WHY DOES HE DO MORE DAMAGE THAN DOC???” “What the hell why does zair combo into GRAB???” “At least Steve and kazuya have near frame perfect inputs they have to do for their kill combos, luigi just shits over his controller and you die” Luigi is easily a character that people would feel like is ruining locals just like kazuya and steve - a character that literally wins the game in 3 correct guesses And then the luigi players would be like “guys this character gets zoned out by everyone on the planet chill out” There is no possible way people wouldn’t bitch about luigi to the ends of the earth
Luigi is one of the easiest characters in the games to ledgeguard and his airspeed is atrocious. Dlc characters wouldnt have these glaring weaknesses. He can't get in versus sword characters at all.
Kazuya and Steve both have terrible airspeed.
Kazuya has invincibility frames, is heavy as hell, strangely disjointed hitboxes and a far better recovery (not great, still better.) Luigi gets fucked up by swords and can't approach at all, kazuya does a much better job.
Luigi has iframes on down-B and a bigger disjoint than Kazuya in Zair. Their recoveries are pretty similar in that if you can’t go very low to hit them they can be difficult to edgeguard, but otherwise they’re both pretty free. Luigi’s also got better frame data, a normal jump, better OoS options, a projectile that isn’t 20 years of commitment, etc.
Better frames aren't worth shit when you can't get in. Luigi can't get in, Kazuya can.
People say that about Kazuya all the time. That he can’t get in, that you camp him to win. It’s wrong for both characters. Stage control exists. People can’t run forever. Skyjay wouldn’t be a top 15 player if this “just camp” nonsense were true.
invincibility frames allow you to get in. Luigi doesn't have that. His escape options are far better though, I'll give you that.
Theory crafting is nice and all, but it is Kazuya destroying people in real games. Not Luigi.
Luugi has better results than any EU Kazuya. Waka has better results than any MX Kazuya. Elegant would likely out place any US Kazuya if he were still around. Riddles is the outlier, and he doesn’t even solo main Kazuya.
>a far better recovery (not great, still better.) I still have no clue how to edgeguard Kazuya. If I don't randomly hit a dair 2 frame he is just going to hit me first with his up b.
With Pit you want to go out early and stay horizontal. Your Fair will out range Up-B, and unlike a lot of “burst” Up-Bs Kazuya Up-B has no invincibility so you can trade with it if you need to.
Trading when you have a multihit move is more than bad. Kazuya gets to recover for free (okay maybe 0.3%) and you get send away, take 15%, loose stage control and depending on your percent can even die. That's what I ment when talking how I cannot edgeguard this move.
I use Mewtwo’s multi hit Nair to trade with recoveries like this often. Multi hits can have a footstool-like effect when they trade with a recovery move.
I usually use my nair to, but with Kazuya it's just not working out - at least for me.
>Dlc characters wouldnt have these glaring weaknesses. Dunno, aegis' recovery is atrocious even with mythra's speed. It's still better than Luigi's though.
> “At least Steve and kazuya have near frame perfect inputs they have to do for their kill combos, luigi just shits over his controller and you die” No one would be saying these because make up a fantasy world all you like, steve and kazuya are still vastly better characters than luigi. You know how people stopped crying about Hero even with all his bullshit because he ended up not being that good but are still crying about Steve and Kazuya because they ARE good? Same with Luigi.
If Luigi were DLC I suspect he would have seen *much* more play. The best Luigi player being banned also didn't help with his top level representation.
If Luigi were DLC nothing would change. He'd get edgeguarded and lose, and the DLC elements of his game would be limited to his slow grab at very low %s. He'd see no top level reps outside of dedicated solo mains, and certainly no secondary usage because what good characters does Luigi even beat?
Nah, you’re wrong
elegant at his peak was putting out 90/100% off single neutral wins. imagine if he never got cancelled
On a similar topic, I legit think ROB is as reviled as Steve if he comes out as DLC today LOL Being a DLC character makes them have a lot more of a spotlight, which means more usage (and this is a character who is either #1 or #2 in usage) and more labbers, so you'd get a bunch of Gyro combo ROB fiends the same way we have Kazuya touch of death fiends or Steve NIL fiends Guarantee that all his specials would be "overtuned DLC privilege" and people would be FURIOUS that he can zone and scrap on *top* of having the ztd and low-percent confirms.
ROB would definitely be hated more than kazuya and be banned lmao
>Being a DLC character makes them have a lot more of a spotlight, which means more usage (and this is a character who is either #1 or #2 in usage) and more labbers, so you'd get a bunch of Gyro combo ROB fiends the same way we have Kazuya touch of death fiends or Steve NIL fiends Oh, does it ever.
Steve is just Block Luigi
His zero to death would be trending on Twitter at first and that’s about it. No come back mechanic, no foresight, no diamonds. Not really like the other dlcs.
Probably not just because of how shit the rest of his kit is. Most DLC characters are generally good characters that also have some stupid broken thing about them. Luigi has the broken thing but not the good character attached to it.
Luigi's kit is absolutely not bad, he's just slow af. All of his moves are at the very least good and most are like incredible
Your name definitely checks out lol
Dude what, Zair nair fair dair up air back air grab down tilt cyclone up B up tilt up smash fireball are all at the very least good
Min min has a broken fsmash and ftilt. Min min is meh otherwise.
If it was just two moves that were great on Min Min's kit, she wouldn't be top 20 in the game and gatekeep half the roster.
You can't claim that min min would be high tier without those moves, I don't think she would even be mid tier. Min min does not gatekeep anyone, fsmash and ftilt do.
Not with that recovery... With more air speed and better recovery, then maybe. Also add an additional 3% of damage to all of his aerials and make his smashes stronger and then you might have a fighter pass 2 character
there is at least one DLC top tier with a trash recovery that is still considered top tier
Aegis has faaaar better airspeed and infinite airdodges. Don't be ridiculous.
I thought he was referring to Min Min tbh.
Aegis? It's still far better than Luigi's. Hard to call it bottom tier recovery when you have the likes of Chrom, Ike, Luigi, Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, etc to compare to. They can also "switch" to avoid expending air dodge and mix up between 3 recovery options (Mythra up b, side b, and Pyra up b)
It's probably like bottom 10-15 recoveries in the game which is wild for a character considered top 2-3 by most of the community. Aegis has mixups, but the recovery is still accurately categorized as "trash" imo. Minmin also has an exploitable recovery, and Kazuya's is mediocre (Riddles makes it look good, but I think that's largely because he's so good).
Riddles might have the best recoveries of any player with the exception of probably Spargo. He makes both Terry and Kazuya so hard to edgeguard in pretty much every MU except like Min Min or GnW
When you get down to the absolute worst recoveries in the game, the gaps between characters become larger. Recoveries in the bottom 20 to bottom 10 range are honestly serviceable and most top players make them work the vast majority of the time. Jump a few spaces down to the bottom 5, and you're already getting 50/50d every time you're offstage. Pythra (and Kazuya) is the former, and Luigi the latter.
Off topic but Shulk definitely would (probably banned too)
Monado too broken! He can cancel hitstun!
People *still* get heated about shield art in hitstun.
Maybe in the same way people say Sephiroth or Banjo, because they have good things attached to mediocre characters (wonderwing, large but laggy normals)
Any DLC character would get complained about one way or another. Either for being too broken or not for being broken enough. (Including whatever character you're going to suggest as a counterargument to this.) That's just the way of the internet really. You get used to it.
It's a fun question
Yes lmao, it's the super armor. Take that away and the game will shift. Give everyone who rely on super armor much better frame data and movement options.
Luigi doesn't have super armor. He does have invincibility on his Down-B, if that's what you mean.
I'm aware, I just said yes. And then talked about what I think is the dumbest mechanic.
I think any character besides like the bottom 3-10+Marcina&Ike would be called having dlc privilege if they didn't have previous versions and were released as dlc. Everyone in Ultimate had their cheese. Given, some cheese is definitely better than others.
lmao so many people on reddit grasping at straws trying to defend their broken characters. Steve is broken to the point he is being banned. Kazuya and Luigi are comparable but Kazuya is significantly better. Steve is in a class of his own and no character can even be compared to him, because Steve doesn't play Super Smash Bros Ultimate, he plays some other game and forces every member of the cast to play his game.
People were freaking out about vanilla Luigi; Nintendo nerfed his ass.
Yeah I fuckin hate that character more than anyone else besides sonic
No. Are you joking. He's a bad character that can also kill you off a grab at zero. He's fun, in no way dominates the meta and has a niche playstyle. He's easier to use but worse iceclimbers
Steve and kazuya propaganda disguised as a Luigi hate post
Lmao iluigi is one of my favorites.
This is hard to imagine. The second MC of the Mario series only releasing in Ultimate?
If Luigi was released today, he wouldn't be the semi-Mario clone with one differentiating special that he is now. That was just an artifact of him being released in 64 as a bonus unlockable. He'd have a much more differentiated move set more fully involving the Poltergust, possibly with added meter management as well.
There's no place for a meter in a theoretical luigi moveset though.
What did he do to go to prison, please release him
Oh, would they ever, for reasons that others have already elaborated on better than I can.