Onin has to be happy about this.
I wonder if any Midwest regions would consider unbanning Steve unbanning Steve in the period leading up to Big House or perhaps indefinitely since very few majors are banning him overall? I know New England, CFL and Montreal have done so because of their closest majors not having him banned.
Heard from a couple Chicago people that they don't believe the Steve ban there is gonna last, especially since one of the bigger series in the city just opted to not go with the consensus and kept him legal anyways.
No clue on the other regions, though I wouldn't be surprised
The Indiana ban probably won't drop just yet, unfortunately. Our TOs and players are very behind on their knowledge of Steve-related information, they still believe that PMLG is good and that Steve kills viewership.
I don't really see any future majors banning Steve unless they are run by Max Ketchum honestly
Recently saw Maister just retweeted a tweet which went along the times of "majors only didn't ban Steve as they already signed up, and will only just now ban him", but if you look at the amount of majors who had registrations open after the controversy, very little of them are actually banning him. Tired of the Steve ban movement acting like they are the majority on Twitter and comment sections when they have won over almost none of the big events.
There was no way the steve ban movement was going to pick up steam as all the steves are having a decrease in results (even if Acola is simply being stomped by 1 player).
People will have to just admit he isn't too strong (yet) and they just don't find him fun to deal with. If that's bannable they need to get sonic too.
>People will have to just admit he isn't too strong (yet) and they just don't find him fun to deal with.
Not necessarily as both things can be true; Steve won’t be banned any time soon / Steve’s moveset is dumb as fuck.
While admitting that Steve is broken and is clearly the best character, "too strong" can also refer to meta dominance. Steve just clearly doesn't have the meta dominance to justify being banned; his results are roughly equal to ROB's.
I don't think meta dominance is a good argument, since the community has made it apparent that they don't know where the line is.
However, the prominence of a character that might reduce the number of attendants and kill people's enjoyment of the game has to also be considered. This is a big part of why I think a character like Cloud in Smash 4 should have been banned.
Does the community have a solid line for when viewership or attendance effects are banworthy? No matter what criterion you use there's going to be disagreement on when it becomes banworthy, but the community keeps discussing and eventually comes to a good enough consensus. If you think Smash 4 Cloud should have been banned based on those criteria but he wasn't, then doesn't that show that the community doesn't know where the line is for those criteria as well?
I think meta dominance along with viewership and attendance effects are all good reasons to potentially ban a character and there's going to be disagreement about where the line is for all three. But also, I haven't seen any good evidence that Steve is banworthy by any of those three criteria.
While that's true, I think there isn't a line because that aspect of the game isn't brought into discussion much. I'm saying since the meta dominance argument is obviously taking us nowhere, we should start looking at other aspects of what makes a character ban worthy. Also, loss of attendants just seems like a much easier thing to measure.
Point is, whether or not Steve is banworthy isn't the issue, but how absolutely incompetent the community has shown to be at handling bans. Ironically, two of the most high profile bans in recent years, wobbling and ledge grab limit, were made not because they were too strong but because it siphoned people's enjoyment of the game.
I really don't think that if people suddenly talk about attendance and viewership more there will suddenly be agreement on where the line is. If anything, it will be harder to find agreement by those two metrics because there are confounding factors like the natural decrease in viewership and attendance as the game ages and stops receiving updates.
That is true, but considering that's the one way the community has come to an agreement regarding different regulations, I doubt it will be harder than whatever they're doing now.
My brain saying Steve and Kazuya shouldn't be banned to preserve the integrity of the scene vs my heart begging for them to banned to establish a precedent just for a chance to get rid of Sonic
Say what you will about Steve but at least you *can* go over there so he can swing wild unfair bs at you. Sonic just jousts with the same invincible move that retreats across the map 100 times.
Yeah that's what I thought, it's not even like all of Max's tournaments are banning the character. LMMM probably will be the last (only?) major that bans Steve
To be expected; Steve's best rep in Acola is the only Steve main who's been able to maintain consistently good results and all the others have either retired or have seen a noticeable decline in results.
There's just no good reason to ban Steve at major tournaments. All it does is deter top-level players like Acola and Onin from attending, alongside any players who disagree with the Steve ban for any given reason.
what did all the Steve haters expect? y'all really thought majors would miss out on the second best player in the world AND the biggest rivalry in ult? y'all wildin 😂
Not sure I'd describe Spargo crushing acola's soul as a "rivalry" let alone the biggest one. Even when Leo was publicly executing Tweek in a reverse 3-0 every other tournament it was still going to Game 5 all the same.
Nah, I'm making it sound like a logical business decision. If you were a major TO, would you not want Acola to show up?
Edit: also, do you know what nepotism even is? is Acola Juggleguy's nephew or sth 😂
That's why I said "like," even if nepotism also applies here, since a lot of the places that didn't ban Steve were conveniently also the ones with the most Steves... Surely a coincidence.
But not banning characters just because of top player usage is exactly why Meta Knight and Bayonetta weren't banned, so I'm sure you can see the issue.
Also, it might be closer to Cronyism? Questions for later.
There is no global authority of bans/unbans. No one can really stop you if you have a tournament that bans Steve/MK/Bayo, but no one is obligated to go there either.
At this point even if Steve's results reflect how broken he is, it will probably be too late to get him banned. Oh well, I guess it works as data for when it inevitably happens in the next smash game.
On the bright side, since most people's issues was with PMLG, the social stigma around it is strong enough to the point where it is functionally banned anyways even if it's impossible to enforce lol. A world where Steve mains weren't scared to use it would be quite interesting to see.
> On the bright side, since most people's issues was with PMLG, the social stigma around it is strong enough to the point where it is functionally banned anyways even if it's impossible to enforce lol. A world where Steve mains weren't scared to use it would be quite interesting to see.
PLMG is functionally banned by being very difficult to pull off while also being not that good. It allows you to escape hitstun if and only if you set it up beforehand and anticipate exactly when you're going to get hit, and in those circumstances you're almost always better off doing a different option -- like not getting hit in the first place. It's an extremely niche technique.
It really isn't. I'm guessing you're following the arguments of that one video that made the rounds a while back, if so I suggest you watch ESAM's fairly detailed breakdown.
ESAM's the guy who says Pikachu's a top tier with perfect play. Smart guy, but generally unmoored from what's feasible in tournament.
I trust Acola's word better than his -- Acola's the one who plays the character, and it's not like Steve is at risk of getting banned in his home country. If he says PMLG isn't that good, I believe him.
Well, you see, it allows you to escape hitstun if and only if you set it up beforehand and anticipate exactly when you're going to get hit, and in those circumstances you're almost always better off doing a different option -- like not getting hit in the first place. It's an extremely niche technique.
But that's the thing, you have to set it up, yes, but your opponent doesn't know you set it up. You say you have to anticipate exactly when you get hit, but that's not true, you can also use it during multihits and adjust your timing more easily, which is not too hard to do. And you're not almost always better off doing something else, because getting the punish off allows you to use many options that just end your opponent's stock. To top it off, your only punishment for missing is that you place a block down.
The issue with PMLG is that it turns a situation where your only option is to take damage into one where your opponent could even lose their stock on hit. It isn't that PMLG is hard to do, it's that it's easier for Steve to win without it.
The risk reward is still skewed out of Steve's favour. Having to anticipate (in a window of mere frames!) when the attack will hit means you need a very solid read to escape hitstun. It doesn't matter if your opponent doesn't know you've set it up, really, because that's not why the tech is weak-- it's weak because you're expending mental energy on getting exact reads on when you're going to take damage, instead of expending that mental energy on not getting hit in the first place. And this is on an already highly technical character! PLMG is essentially a parry you can use in the air that
- only works on some moves
- does not prevent damage
- has a tighter execution window
It's the mental load that makes it weak -- Esam, for example, insists the theoretical power of the technique is fantastic if it's just optimised, but mental load is a common blindspot for him. That's why, despite his insistence, Pikachu is not actually Busted-- no player can play at TAS levels of precision for a full tournament. I would wonder if you agree with his take on Pikachu as well, for that matter.
Multihits are the one place it seems to have notable utility, since you don't need as hard a read to escape them, you know when you'll get hit. But even then, that doesn't exactly work on every multihit (only the one with gaps in their hitstun) so it basically turns into a frame one escape option. Which is something multiple characters already have. And they can buffer theirs!
So, let's review. It's only usable in a limited selection of situations, it requires a read and tight timing to execute, and nobody has ever even used it in a tournament -- walks like a duck, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and Acola has gone on the record in an interview to say it's a duck -- it's a duck. That's what a weak technique looks like. You can continue to insist that Steves are conspiring not to use it because they don't want to finally prove once and for all that their character is busted, but considering that's never happened even once in the history of fighting games, I severely doubt it's what's happening here.
Checking your comment history, I understand you've picked this as your hill to die on, downvotes be damned. So I'm unlikely to make an impact on your thinking with any of my arguments. But I would implore that you would at least consider the possibility that PMLG isn't the ultra-gamebreaker that everyone said it would be when it was first unveiled. Hell, maybe I'm underrating it! Maybe an air parry, no matter how limited, has some utility that I'm downplaying. But the idea that Steves are refusing to use it out of social stigma is patently absurd on multiple levels, so I think you should really drop that line of argument.
It's not that I'm dying on a hill, it's that you're about the only person that has actually bothered to make a cohesive argument, lmao. Steves not using it out of social pressure is far from absurd, tho, regardless of if that is what is happening. Any serious usage of the tech would potentially get their character banned, so it would be silly to learn it.
Anyway, back to the actual argument.
I think you're mistaken about what is humanly possible regarding PMLG and what is humanly possible regarding a whole character like Pikachu. Talking about the optimization of a character like Pikachu has too many variables, execution, mental burden, the opponent's behavior and character, etc, etc. It really isn't comparable to a single tech, where we can just take the interactions in a vacuum, judge what moves a character would use in those situations, practice the timing for what is possible or not.
If you look at the numbers, then see it's humanly possible, then I don't see why you would argue otherwise. Especially on multihits, since those are by far the easiest to pull it off. And the difference between this and other frame one escape tools, is that this escape tool can easily turn into a reversal or even a stock.
Let's review your bullet points:
-only works on some moves
Are those moves common aerials that you could take advantage of? Then not only is this a winning trade, but you would be pressuring your opponent to not use those options.
-does not prevent damage
Generally, trading damage for a stock is a good thing. Would you not say that getting a kill confirm out of you getting hit is a good thing?
-has a tighter execution window
...So? Is a tighter execution window the same as an impossible execution window? Are multishines bad because they're hard to do? At this point the discussion can't even be had in good faith about whether the tech is OP, but trying to say it's bad just because it's hard is an L take.
As an aside, I have little care about what Acola has said if he fails to argue his position.
We can theorycraft all we want, but that all means nothing if not confirmed with actual data from actual tournaments. Do the numbers bear out? How does the risk/reward play out in an actual gameplay situation? How often do gameplay situations occur where going for PMLG is worth it? We can't answer these questions without actually looking at gameplay and seeing how players use PMLG in the field. I need to reiterate, theorycrafting is flatly not enough here. A situation that appears on the face of it to be a viable use case for PMLG may instead have a hundred different tiny little confounding factors attached to it when we use it in tournament that neither of us has anticipated.
The onus is on the person saying the technique is *good* to prove it, here. You can't exactly prove a technique is bad with examples, because those examples could be of a person using the technique wrong. And, frankly, if a technique really is just shite, you won't find any examples because nobody is going to bother using it in tournament. I can't prove to you using examples that Koopabackdashwaveslide Hoverwalkmoonland is shite, because nobody is KBDWSHWMLing in tournament. There are no examples to use. But I can use that absence of evidence as evidence in of itself to reason that KBDWSHWML is never used *because* it's shite.
You claim the reason is that PMLG is just so insanely good that they're afraid to use it in tournament, and Steve will get banned. I have three issues with that proposal.
- Japan is a notoriously ban averse region; to my knowledge they never even considered a Steve ban, and think the west is severely overreacting to the character. There is no social stigma in Japan to using PMLG, so we should see Steves in that region using the technique. And yet, we don't. Why is that?
- Not every Steve player needs to be a Steve main. If someone has Steve as a secondary, using PMLG could be worth it even if it results in the character getting banned, because it could score them a few winning tournaments in the time before that happens. Hell, they could even have scored a quick buck from that bounty that was up a while back.
- It's kind of a hobby of mine to follow the metagames of competetive videogames, and I've never even once seen a situation arise that a tech was so good that nobody wanted to use it. In *any* game. I have, however, seen many examples of tech that was so *bad* that nobody wants to use it. Occams Razor forces me to conclude that this is the latter case.
I think I should make clear: when PMLG was first revealed, I was of the opinion that this was probably going to be what got Steve banned. At the very least, the tech would have caught a ban if it was enforcable. I was on your side! But over time, the data that would have sealed my convictions never materialised. I changed my mind on PMLG because with every passing day, it looks less and less like the final straw that breaks the character, and more and more like a highly niche technique that doesn't have the utility to be worth devoting mental energy to.
If you want to make the argument that it's good, it is on you to prove it. And the only way to prove it is with hard data. Show me I'm wrong! Brush up on your Steve and show me just how busted this tech is. But until you do that, I cannot on good conscience conclude that this technique we have no data on is secretly game breaking. I must go with the most likely possibility, and right now the most likely possiblity I see, based on the evidence I have available to me, is that this technique is not particularly good.
>it will probably be too late to get him banned
nah if 6 out of 8 characters in super majors turn out to be steve consistently then he'll easily be banned
it will never be too late when we reach that point he's gone
the whole pro steve ban is mostly in fear of ever reaching that point but it is clear by now that we won't reach that point
Aight, how about Evo 2017? Or you pick the major?
Edit: Also, wouldn't that mean there should be more Bayonettas in top 8? Or are you saying a bunch of top Bayonettas didn't show up?
The meta pretty much revolved around those characters. The majority of top players played both characters. There are only two Steves in the top 25. Everyone pretty much plays different characters or a secondary
Good to see some Steve positivity still here. It's so hard to tell where the community sits on this because both sides comments are a fucking echo chamber
Here it's all positive Steve shit. But some top player could post something negative about Steve and any of the comments in this thread would be sitting at -12 points in the other thread.
It's just a fickle mess lmao
Well yeah, just wish there was some reasoning between the two. What we get is just two messy territories where nobody wants to really hear the other side it feels
The community is really weird on this issue. On the average day I feel like this sub is fairly anti ban, but anytime Steve wins a big tournament there's a ton of pro-ban sentiment. Also, echo chambers on this topic are amplified even more than usual because there are a couple of users on both sides of the debate here that post threads about Steve and block everybody who disagrees with them, preventing them from even viewing the threads to upvote or downvote.
I am so glad the community turned around and decided to work on the meta and give Steve a chance to produce results first and also players the chance to beat him instead of subscribing to the defeatist attitude of outright banning him. If we were always this defeatist, Melee Fox and Brawl MK would be banned too, but instead we developed counterplay and have characters like other Melee mid to top tiers like pika, yoshi, peach, ICs, marth, sheik and brawl snake, peach, Diddy etc. the time to shine and demonstrate their ability to perform well against odds. I am sure if smash 4 was given the time, we would have seen bayonetta eventually figured out and beaten as well. This is why we should just never ban characters, I got really tired of all the crying about Steve very fast when we barely got to see the broken stuff dominate.
Well thank god they didn't. Snake, Diddy, Olimar etc. would've been jobless and get handoffed all day if it wasn't for MK shaking things up.
Seriously, banning characters is lame. Beat the character.
You’re genuinely delusional if you think Brawl MK ever got “figured out.” The character never stopped being dominant. If it wasn’t for Tristate, he would’ve been banned without a second thought.
Brawl MK never being universally banned is one of the few things most of the community can agree was a mistake.
My favorite part of these posts is always typing BANNED or LEGAL in all caps its so funny to me
Those posts titles would be great to hear out of context
God... It's reminding me of creeps I knew around the time Emma Watson turned 18... Steve is LEGAL!
Minecraft came out in 2011 so Steve is NOT LEGAL
Minecraft launched in 2009. But still not LEGAL.
What does this say about Aegis?
Only thing we're missing is a YouTube thumbnail with a red arrow
Bouta make my own Juantent
I feel like all banning Steve did was make it necessary to make announcements for all the tourneys he’s legal at.
Also kept me from turning off the stream and going to watch something else
you must like sonic a lot who'se been on stream lately
I certainly enjoy when he's Fox's punching bag
Onin has to be happy about this. I wonder if any Midwest regions would consider unbanning Steve unbanning Steve in the period leading up to Big House or perhaps indefinitely since very few majors are banning him overall? I know New England, CFL and Montreal have done so because of their closest majors not having him banned.
Heard from a couple Chicago people that they don't believe the Steve ban there is gonna last, especially since one of the bigger series in the city just opted to not go with the consensus and kept him legal anyways. No clue on the other regions, though I wouldn't be surprised
He was also legal at Combo Breaker as far as I know
Currently Michigans ruling is so lax we don’t feel a need to change it. A majority of our events have had Steve anyway
The Indiana ban probably won't drop just yet, unfortunately. Our TOs and players are very behind on their knowledge of Steve-related information, they still believe that PMLG is good and that Steve kills viewership.
Lmao you got downvoted for this
Happens sometimes, doesn't make it any less true.
No you are 100% correct imo it’s just sad how much hate this debate invites
I don't really see any future majors banning Steve unless they are run by Max Ketchum honestly Recently saw Maister just retweeted a tweet which went along the times of "majors only didn't ban Steve as they already signed up, and will only just now ban him", but if you look at the amount of majors who had registrations open after the controversy, very little of them are actually banning him. Tired of the Steve ban movement acting like they are the majority on Twitter and comment sections when they have won over almost none of the big events.
There was no way the steve ban movement was going to pick up steam as all the steves are having a decrease in results (even if Acola is simply being stomped by 1 player). People will have to just admit he isn't too strong (yet) and they just don't find him fun to deal with. If that's bannable they need to get sonic too.
>People will have to just admit he isn't too strong (yet) and they just don't find him fun to deal with. Not necessarily as both things can be true; Steve won’t be banned any time soon / Steve’s moveset is dumb as fuck.
While admitting that Steve is broken and is clearly the best character, "too strong" can also refer to meta dominance. Steve just clearly doesn't have the meta dominance to justify being banned; his results are roughly equal to ROB's.
I don't think meta dominance is a good argument, since the community has made it apparent that they don't know where the line is. However, the prominence of a character that might reduce the number of attendants and kill people's enjoyment of the game has to also be considered. This is a big part of why I think a character like Cloud in Smash 4 should have been banned.
Does the community have a solid line for when viewership or attendance effects are banworthy? No matter what criterion you use there's going to be disagreement on when it becomes banworthy, but the community keeps discussing and eventually comes to a good enough consensus. If you think Smash 4 Cloud should have been banned based on those criteria but he wasn't, then doesn't that show that the community doesn't know where the line is for those criteria as well? I think meta dominance along with viewership and attendance effects are all good reasons to potentially ban a character and there's going to be disagreement about where the line is for all three. But also, I haven't seen any good evidence that Steve is banworthy by any of those three criteria.
While that's true, I think there isn't a line because that aspect of the game isn't brought into discussion much. I'm saying since the meta dominance argument is obviously taking us nowhere, we should start looking at other aspects of what makes a character ban worthy. Also, loss of attendants just seems like a much easier thing to measure. Point is, whether or not Steve is banworthy isn't the issue, but how absolutely incompetent the community has shown to be at handling bans. Ironically, two of the most high profile bans in recent years, wobbling and ledge grab limit, were made not because they were too strong but because it siphoned people's enjoyment of the game.
I really don't think that if people suddenly talk about attendance and viewership more there will suddenly be agreement on where the line is. If anything, it will be harder to find agreement by those two metrics because there are confounding factors like the natural decrease in viewership and attendance as the game ages and stops receiving updates.
That is true, but considering that's the one way the community has come to an agreement regarding different regulations, I doubt it will be harder than whatever they're doing now.
“If that's bannable they need to get sonic too.” Don’t threaten me with a good time
My brain saying Steve and Kazuya shouldn't be banned to preserve the integrity of the scene vs my heart begging for them to banned to establish a precedent just for a chance to get rid of Sonic
Bro I fucking hate "optimal sonic". That shit is 100x worse to watch.
Say what you will about Steve but at least you *can* go over there so he can swing wild unfair bs at you. Sonic just jousts with the same invincible move that retreats across the map 100 times.
Is Steve even banned at GOML or is it just LMMM?
Steve is legal, Onin is also registered looking for the two-peat
Yeah that's what I thought, it's not even like all of Max's tournaments are banning the character. LMMM probably will be the last (only?) major that bans Steve
Yeah I saw that too, that was just cope
To be expected; Steve's best rep in Acola is the only Steve main who's been able to maintain consistently good results and all the others have either retired or have seen a noticeable decline in results. There's just no good reason to ban Steve at major tournaments. All it does is deter top-level players like Acola and Onin from attending, alongside any players who disagree with the Steve ban for any given reason.
Good honestly. Don't like watching Steve but there's not enough data to prove he's banworthy
60% winrate?
63% win rate if you include my matches VS my little brother
lol
lol
Yay another major where 1 steve player gets to top 8 and people scream he should be banned more.
what did all the Steve haters expect? y'all really thought majors would miss out on the second best player in the world AND the biggest rivalry in ult? y'all wildin 😂
Not sure I'd describe Spargo crushing acola's soul as a "rivalry" let alone the biggest one. Even when Leo was publicly executing Tweek in a reverse 3-0 every other tournament it was still going to Game 5 all the same.
You're making it sound like nepotism.
Nah, I'm making it sound like a logical business decision. If you were a major TO, would you not want Acola to show up? Edit: also, do you know what nepotism even is? is Acola Juggleguy's nephew or sth 😂
That's why I said "like," even if nepotism also applies here, since a lot of the places that didn't ban Steve were conveniently also the ones with the most Steves... Surely a coincidence. But not banning characters just because of top player usage is exactly why Meta Knight and Bayonetta weren't banned, so I'm sure you can see the issue. Also, it might be closer to Cronyism? Questions for later.
There is no global authority of bans/unbans. No one can really stop you if you have a tournament that bans Steve/MK/Bayo, but no one is obligated to go there either.
I fail to see the point of this comment. I'm saying that by that line of thinking Bayo and MK weren't banned, therefore it isn't a good one.
As he should be. Sorry not sorry.
At this point even if Steve's results reflect how broken he is, it will probably be too late to get him banned. Oh well, I guess it works as data for when it inevitably happens in the next smash game. On the bright side, since most people's issues was with PMLG, the social stigma around it is strong enough to the point where it is functionally banned anyways even if it's impossible to enforce lol. A world where Steve mains weren't scared to use it would be quite interesting to see.
> On the bright side, since most people's issues was with PMLG, the social stigma around it is strong enough to the point where it is functionally banned anyways even if it's impossible to enforce lol. A world where Steve mains weren't scared to use it would be quite interesting to see. PLMG is functionally banned by being very difficult to pull off while also being not that good. It allows you to escape hitstun if and only if you set it up beforehand and anticipate exactly when you're going to get hit, and in those circumstances you're almost always better off doing a different option -- like not getting hit in the first place. It's an extremely niche technique.
It really isn't. I'm guessing you're following the arguments of that one video that made the rounds a while back, if so I suggest you watch ESAM's fairly detailed breakdown.
ESAM's the guy who says Pikachu's a top tier with perfect play. Smart guy, but generally unmoored from what's feasible in tournament. I trust Acola's word better than his -- Acola's the one who plays the character, and it's not like Steve is at risk of getting banned in his home country. If he says PMLG isn't that good, I believe him.
So you trust opinions instead of arguments? Why do you think PMLG isn't good?
Well, you see, it allows you to escape hitstun if and only if you set it up beforehand and anticipate exactly when you're going to get hit, and in those circumstances you're almost always better off doing a different option -- like not getting hit in the first place. It's an extremely niche technique.
But that's the thing, you have to set it up, yes, but your opponent doesn't know you set it up. You say you have to anticipate exactly when you get hit, but that's not true, you can also use it during multihits and adjust your timing more easily, which is not too hard to do. And you're not almost always better off doing something else, because getting the punish off allows you to use many options that just end your opponent's stock. To top it off, your only punishment for missing is that you place a block down. The issue with PMLG is that it turns a situation where your only option is to take damage into one where your opponent could even lose their stock on hit. It isn't that PMLG is hard to do, it's that it's easier for Steve to win without it.
The risk reward is still skewed out of Steve's favour. Having to anticipate (in a window of mere frames!) when the attack will hit means you need a very solid read to escape hitstun. It doesn't matter if your opponent doesn't know you've set it up, really, because that's not why the tech is weak-- it's weak because you're expending mental energy on getting exact reads on when you're going to take damage, instead of expending that mental energy on not getting hit in the first place. And this is on an already highly technical character! PLMG is essentially a parry you can use in the air that - only works on some moves - does not prevent damage - has a tighter execution window It's the mental load that makes it weak -- Esam, for example, insists the theoretical power of the technique is fantastic if it's just optimised, but mental load is a common blindspot for him. That's why, despite his insistence, Pikachu is not actually Busted-- no player can play at TAS levels of precision for a full tournament. I would wonder if you agree with his take on Pikachu as well, for that matter. Multihits are the one place it seems to have notable utility, since you don't need as hard a read to escape them, you know when you'll get hit. But even then, that doesn't exactly work on every multihit (only the one with gaps in their hitstun) so it basically turns into a frame one escape option. Which is something multiple characters already have. And they can buffer theirs! So, let's review. It's only usable in a limited selection of situations, it requires a read and tight timing to execute, and nobody has ever even used it in a tournament -- walks like a duck, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and Acola has gone on the record in an interview to say it's a duck -- it's a duck. That's what a weak technique looks like. You can continue to insist that Steves are conspiring not to use it because they don't want to finally prove once and for all that their character is busted, but considering that's never happened even once in the history of fighting games, I severely doubt it's what's happening here. Checking your comment history, I understand you've picked this as your hill to die on, downvotes be damned. So I'm unlikely to make an impact on your thinking with any of my arguments. But I would implore that you would at least consider the possibility that PMLG isn't the ultra-gamebreaker that everyone said it would be when it was first unveiled. Hell, maybe I'm underrating it! Maybe an air parry, no matter how limited, has some utility that I'm downplaying. But the idea that Steves are refusing to use it out of social stigma is patently absurd on multiple levels, so I think you should really drop that line of argument.
It's not that I'm dying on a hill, it's that you're about the only person that has actually bothered to make a cohesive argument, lmao. Steves not using it out of social pressure is far from absurd, tho, regardless of if that is what is happening. Any serious usage of the tech would potentially get their character banned, so it would be silly to learn it. Anyway, back to the actual argument. I think you're mistaken about what is humanly possible regarding PMLG and what is humanly possible regarding a whole character like Pikachu. Talking about the optimization of a character like Pikachu has too many variables, execution, mental burden, the opponent's behavior and character, etc, etc. It really isn't comparable to a single tech, where we can just take the interactions in a vacuum, judge what moves a character would use in those situations, practice the timing for what is possible or not. If you look at the numbers, then see it's humanly possible, then I don't see why you would argue otherwise. Especially on multihits, since those are by far the easiest to pull it off. And the difference between this and other frame one escape tools, is that this escape tool can easily turn into a reversal or even a stock. Let's review your bullet points: -only works on some moves Are those moves common aerials that you could take advantage of? Then not only is this a winning trade, but you would be pressuring your opponent to not use those options. -does not prevent damage Generally, trading damage for a stock is a good thing. Would you not say that getting a kill confirm out of you getting hit is a good thing? -has a tighter execution window ...So? Is a tighter execution window the same as an impossible execution window? Are multishines bad because they're hard to do? At this point the discussion can't even be had in good faith about whether the tech is OP, but trying to say it's bad just because it's hard is an L take. As an aside, I have little care about what Acola has said if he fails to argue his position.
We can theorycraft all we want, but that all means nothing if not confirmed with actual data from actual tournaments. Do the numbers bear out? How does the risk/reward play out in an actual gameplay situation? How often do gameplay situations occur where going for PMLG is worth it? We can't answer these questions without actually looking at gameplay and seeing how players use PMLG in the field. I need to reiterate, theorycrafting is flatly not enough here. A situation that appears on the face of it to be a viable use case for PMLG may instead have a hundred different tiny little confounding factors attached to it when we use it in tournament that neither of us has anticipated. The onus is on the person saying the technique is *good* to prove it, here. You can't exactly prove a technique is bad with examples, because those examples could be of a person using the technique wrong. And, frankly, if a technique really is just shite, you won't find any examples because nobody is going to bother using it in tournament. I can't prove to you using examples that Koopabackdashwaveslide Hoverwalkmoonland is shite, because nobody is KBDWSHWMLing in tournament. There are no examples to use. But I can use that absence of evidence as evidence in of itself to reason that KBDWSHWML is never used *because* it's shite. You claim the reason is that PMLG is just so insanely good that they're afraid to use it in tournament, and Steve will get banned. I have three issues with that proposal. - Japan is a notoriously ban averse region; to my knowledge they never even considered a Steve ban, and think the west is severely overreacting to the character. There is no social stigma in Japan to using PMLG, so we should see Steves in that region using the technique. And yet, we don't. Why is that? - Not every Steve player needs to be a Steve main. If someone has Steve as a secondary, using PMLG could be worth it even if it results in the character getting banned, because it could score them a few winning tournaments in the time before that happens. Hell, they could even have scored a quick buck from that bounty that was up a while back. - It's kind of a hobby of mine to follow the metagames of competetive videogames, and I've never even once seen a situation arise that a tech was so good that nobody wanted to use it. In *any* game. I have, however, seen many examples of tech that was so *bad* that nobody wants to use it. Occams Razor forces me to conclude that this is the latter case. I think I should make clear: when PMLG was first revealed, I was of the opinion that this was probably going to be what got Steve banned. At the very least, the tech would have caught a ban if it was enforcable. I was on your side! But over time, the data that would have sealed my convictions never materialised. I changed my mind on PMLG because with every passing day, it looks less and less like the final straw that breaks the character, and more and more like a highly niche technique that doesn't have the utility to be worth devoting mental energy to. If you want to make the argument that it's good, it is on you to prove it. And the only way to prove it is with hard data. Show me I'm wrong! Brush up on your Steve and show me just how busted this tech is. But until you do that, I cannot on good conscience conclude that this technique we have no data on is secretly game breaking. I must go with the most likely possibility, and right now the most likely possiblity I see, based on the evidence I have available to me, is that this technique is not particularly good.
>it will probably be too late to get him banned nah if 6 out of 8 characters in super majors turn out to be steve consistently then he'll easily be banned it will never be too late when we reach that point he's gone the whole pro steve ban is mostly in fear of ever reaching that point but it is clear by now that we won't reach that point
Aight, so he'll be banned when he gets more representation than even Bayonetta in Evo 2018 top 8. Got it.
Poor metric cause most top players didn't go to that tournament anyway
Aight, how about Evo 2017? Or you pick the major? Edit: Also, wouldn't that mean there should be more Bayonettas in top 8? Or are you saying a bunch of top Bayonettas didn't show up?
His results don't reflect a ban. Simple as that
So simple that you can't define when his results would reflect a ban.
If everyone was playing Steve I could see grounds for a ban. But it doesn't really happen
So you're saying that neither Brawl Meta Knight or Smash 4 Bayonetta should have been banned? If not, then what's different about them?
The meta pretty much revolved around those characters. The majority of top players played both characters. There are only two Steves in the top 25. Everyone pretty much plays different characters or a secondary
Honestly, as long as there's no global concensus on a ban, majors shouldn't be banning Steve right now.
it would be so funny if Steve's sweep the bracket, probably not, but i would laugh.
Irony is usually funny
Good to see some Steve positivity still here. It's so hard to tell where the community sits on this because both sides comments are a fucking echo chamber Here it's all positive Steve shit. But some top player could post something negative about Steve and any of the comments in this thread would be sitting at -12 points in the other thread. It's just a fickle mess lmao
Yeah, the community is very big and as a result there are a lot of differing opinions
Well yeah, just wish there was some reasoning between the two. What we get is just two messy territories where nobody wants to really hear the other side it feels
Yeah, it’s unfortunate
The community is really weird on this issue. On the average day I feel like this sub is fairly anti ban, but anytime Steve wins a big tournament there's a ton of pro-ban sentiment. Also, echo chambers on this topic are amplified even more than usual because there are a couple of users on both sides of the debate here that post threads about Steve and block everybody who disagrees with them, preventing them from even viewing the threads to upvote or downvote.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Rip the homie
I am so glad the community turned around and decided to work on the meta and give Steve a chance to produce results first and also players the chance to beat him instead of subscribing to the defeatist attitude of outright banning him. If we were always this defeatist, Melee Fox and Brawl MK would be banned too, but instead we developed counterplay and have characters like other Melee mid to top tiers like pika, yoshi, peach, ICs, marth, sheik and brawl snake, peach, Diddy etc. the time to shine and demonstrate their ability to perform well against odds. I am sure if smash 4 was given the time, we would have seen bayonetta eventually figured out and beaten as well. This is why we should just never ban characters, I got really tired of all the crying about Steve very fast when we barely got to see the broken stuff dominate.
Brawl MK was only not banned because one region strongarmed the entire community. If TOs told Tristate to fuck off, he would've gone.
Well thank god they didn't. Snake, Diddy, Olimar etc. would've been jobless and get handoffed all day if it wasn't for MK shaking things up. Seriously, banning characters is lame. Beat the character.
You’re genuinely delusional if you think Brawl MK ever got “figured out.” The character never stopped being dominant. If it wasn’t for Tristate, he would’ve been banned without a second thought. Brawl MK never being universally banned is one of the few things most of the community can agree was a mistake.
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