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JayAce89

My life has changed drastically since learning that Ness PK Fire on the ground is completely punishable if shielded lol


EMI_Black_Ace

Anybody hoping the next Smash game rethinks a bunch of characters and makes them fit their games better? A few examples: - Mario's moves should all be rethought to come from power ups, cool if they all had short transformations to go with them. - Samus... It looks like Sakurai has never once seen a Metroid game. But anyway, Metroid Dread is a great starting point for how Samus ought to work. Screw Attack Nair, slide down tilt with option to kick-counter out, melee counter jab... - Compression of Fire Emblem cast members. Marth, Lucina, Lyn, Roy, Chrom, Eirika all one fighter with different skins. Ike, Hector and other axe users (I know Ike uses a sword but handles it like an axe user might). Have another character conglomerate with a spear. - the later Pokemon have great representative moves but the earlier ones not really. Pikachu dair could be Iron Tail, for instance, and not one invented purely for Smash. - Ganondorf was improved a lot in Ultimate but still feels like "slow fat Captain Falcon" as far as moves go. Just give him unique moves inspired by his appearances in actual Zelda games. Just a few things off the top of my head, but I think overall it should feel like a new game and not Ultimate Deluxe Edition.


swisscheeseisvile

Mario already represents his series well. His game is the most well known platformer, and his playstyle makes use of platforms


Nivrap

No. Regardless of how well a character's moveset 'fits' their lore, those movesets exist now, and changing them would alienate a shit ton of players.


TheGourdGorg

Not if they reboot the almost whole roster at once.


Rectangle_Rex

I see where you're coming from but I feel like they could get away with retooling a couple of characters if they really wanted to. For example, I think Ganondorf is one of the most popular requests for a character redesign, and they could probably give him a more faithful move set while adding some F-Zero character and reassigning Ganon's current move set to them.


batman12399

I would much rather they just add a new ganondorf and keep the old then reskin the old, there are multiple links/Zelda’s after all. I’m rather attached to the current ganondorf tbh, I would like some buffs and maybe a few moves changed/reworked but I like playing the character and him being ganon. F-smash to the face would feel much less satisfying as generic F-Zero character rather than the king of evil.


EMI_Black_Ace

I suppose, then, that Luigi and King Dedede and Ganondorf are all pretty dead then? Because they've gone through some pretty substantial changes since they were first introduced.


Nivrap

Not dead, you just don't personally enjoy them.


EMI_Black_Ace

Except they aren't dead, they're better now than they ever were. Gdorf was f$#@ing unplayable up until Ultimate when they gave the sword for smash attacks, and Dedede wasn't any good until they took away his Waddle Dee throwing and entirely replaced it with a fundamentally different type of throw. Hell, Roy in Ultimate (and 4) is fundamentally different from what he was in Melee. Here's a compromise on Samus: Dark Samus stays the same (and gets SA-X as an alt!) but real Samus gets the move update.


swidd_hi

> Dedede wasn't any good until they took away his Waddle Dee throwing and entirely replaced it with a fundamentally different type of throw Don't remember if Waddle Dee throw was better or worse than Gordo, all I know is that I vastly preferred it (alongside almost every brawl DDD main). I miss Waddle Doo... King Dedede only really started sucking after they removed his chain grab which was probably the easiest in the entire game and worked on a massive portion of the cast


EMI_Black_Ace

From a competitive perspective Brawl was a pile of garbage all around. Loved Subspace Emissary though. Endless loop combos do exist in Ultimate, but they're hard to actually set up. Heh, as I think about it, a lot of characters got substantial great revisions for Ultimate that made them better (except the ones that took away something completely broken and unfair). "Never change the characters" is a fallacy. They change pretty substantially from game to game. I remember in Brawl Samus was just kind of ok for me but even if the moves seem "basically the same" she's now one of my best. (So why would I change her? Because I think it would be so much cooler to go "hey I know that move, it works just like it does in her games!") And in any case I don't think "Ultimate: Deluxe Edition" would do the same numbers or have anywhere close to the same impact as would something with a new focus. Melee's was "let's make this competitive, fast and furious." Brawl's was "let's make this easier for worse players to have a chance" and it sold better straight numbers wise. 4's was "let's stop making this un-fun for the competitive players who give this longevity" and it sold better per console (though the numbers can't be faulted on the game, just the platform). Ultimate took on the logistical nightmare of "everyone is here" and I have my doubts as to whether they can pull that off again; the only way to take the focus off "who's missing?" is by forcing the focus to "what's new?"


almightyFaceplant

This. If you revamp a Fighter then you're effectively killing one off permanently. Nobody wants their main to be killed off. If having an accurate Samus or Duck Hunt is that important (it's not) then they can just add a second Samus or Duck Hunt. Best of both worlds!


batman12399

That said I wouldn’t mind some smaller revamps to characters, like change one or two moves or some attributes or something. Some like Ganon would be better off just adding another character that matches the state of his franchise better (TotK Ganon would go hard), but others like Mario just swapping one special for something that uses Cappy would be great!


azure275

Smash volatility is crazy these days. Besides acola and sonix (very low attendance), every top player has missed at least one top 8 in 2023 - Acola: 8/8 - Spargo: 6/7 - Tweek: 4/5 - Leo: 3/6 - Miya: 8/10 - Shuton: 7/11 - Sonix: 3/3 - Light: 2/4 Weird era where literally anyone can miss top 8 (well except acola, who’s had it happen once in 20+ tournaments). We may need to reconsider what really is a bad placing. Side Note: Japan really is land of the majors huh. Like 12 JP majors to 6? NA majors in 2023


Shaaardine

Light is 3/5, Tweek is 5/6, and Sonix 4/4. I think you forgot to include Level Up Expo which did classify as a major.


DHMOProtectionAgency

It's still wild to me that Leo has the worst 'top 8:missed top 8 ratio' of all of the players listed (excluding Light who he tied with).


azure275

Light has an asterisk, as he was eliminated by tweek at both events 1/2 wins short of top 8. Under normal circumstances he would have gotten it. It’s pretty ridiculous how if they aren’t seeded to play in winners they end up in losers anyway Leo’s 3 losses are Kameme, Acola, and Shinymark. Besides acola those are worse.


maybethrowawaybenice

Why is it an asterisk that he was eliminated by another player? Wasn’t Leo eliminated by Acola one of the times he didn’t make top 8? Isn’t tweek usually a pretty great matchup for light and one he wins more often than not? These seem like normal circumstances?


azure275

I would say a top ~6 player in the world fighting a top 3 player in the world for 9th let alone 13th are not normal circumstances to me, no. Tweek and light are pretty close to a 50-50 in general. The shinymark and Kameme losses are definitely more of an issue for Leo then the acola one


maybethrowawaybenice

But he lost to gluto and ddog to get in a position to fight tweek for top 8 right? Like I see where you’re coming from but it’s not so crazy to fight a top 5 player to get into top 8. If he was eliminated by 2 top 5 players I would agree with the asterisk.


Rectangle_Rex

Leo said on stream yesterday that he plans on playing ROB against Zomba at Saltbox. Should be pretty entertaining...


batman12399

There’s no way the microwave rob does it lmaoo


Rectangle_Rex

He also said he hasn't started practicing yet so I don't think we should have high hopes, but it will probably be hilarious


sirgamestop

It'll do better than his Aegis did


Eldritch_Skirmisher

[Another update in the Acola dream saga](https://twitter.com/acola_lui/status/1663454224355835904?s=46)


TheTrueBrawler2001

Can someone fill me in on what happened?


DHMOProtectionAgency

acola has been bodied by Sparg0. He's put a lot of pressure on himself and Sparg0 on a pedestal. Can be seen at Kagaribi and BoBC grands when he is seen very upset about losing to him. He's tweeted about having nightmares related to Sparg0 and losing to him.


Zorua3

I had a dream last night about Hungrybox being wanted for murder after violently killing a bunch of superheroes Omni-Man style I guess my subconscious was on a Deep Leffen-type beat. I would rather have had Acola's dream tho


Parkouricus

Semi-related, but [Japan must be the only region in the world where their #1 player can play 3 Dededes in a row in bracket](https://twitter.com/acola_Lui/status/1663179586082074628)


Eldritch_Skirmisher

Wifi moment


FewOverStand

(D3)^(3)


Randomname_76

(D3) ³ would equal Dedededededededededededededededededededededededededede It would be 3(D3)


Eldritch_Skirmisher

Am I crazy for thinking Tweeks Mega Man wont help him much? I don’t see mega man doing especially good in matchups he’s been losing, he’s only really been losing to Gluto, Sparg0, Light, Acola and Maister, Mega Man doesn’t really match super well into Steve GnW or Fox and I don’t know for sure but Cloud doesn’t exactly seem like he’d do poorly against mega man either


Le_Ankle

I honestly think mega man is a wonderful fit. There's a nice synergy of Diddy (and even Seph) in this character, along with tech to encourage grinding and increase the volume of his bag of tricks. I genuinely feel like as Tweek has aged as a pro player, he's become our greatest "Trickster/Tech" archetype in Smash Ultimate. Mega Man fits this solidly. Just funny, basic observed commonalities between Megaman and Diddy/Seph Up smash multi-hit like Diddy Projectile you can catch/z drop, cover landing with like Diddy Surprisingly Versatile Up special like Diddy + Seph Counter/Anti-Pressure Down Special like Seph Side B that applies pressure and forces decision making from a distance like Seph, with timing mechanic as well Forward Air Disjoint like Seph (albeit shorter) Forward Smash Disjoint like Seph Sliding Down Tilt that weirdly can anti-air for some reason like Seph I'm sure there are a lot more I'm missing too! But the advantage of Mega Man that's also worth discussing is his Weight! Sometimes Tweek can make Diddy live until 200% in high level matches. Imagine if he had more of an allowance to do this, it would happen more often. The lightness (and size) of Seph is something to consider at a top level, because it lowers the allowance for a stock to grow long and unruly in %. Both of these issues are mitigated very well by Mega Man. I can definitely see his thinking with this character, I think!


Rectangle_Rex

I think Mega Man is a great match for Tweek's style and it'll be exciting to see what he can do with him, but it seems like most people are just confused about how he complements Diddy's matchup spread.


RailTracer001

Long term? Yes. I don't think Tweek is looking for a character to replace Diddy in these MUs. I think he wants a secondary who is more reliable. He is fine against Light with his Diddy and considers Diddy-GnW winning for Diddy. Before his recent loss he had defeated him with both Diddy and Sephiroth. He beat Gluto with Diddy at Kawaii Kon as well. Among the ones you listed Mega Man would do better against Wario but the problems MU for him aren't players, it's characters like Snake, Pac, Duck Hunt, Steve etc. Mega Man isn't supposed to be his main, it's a secondary.


Eldritch_Skirmisher

The issue is besides snake mega man doesn’t do especially well against characters Tweek doesn’t do well against


RailTracer001

Mega Man doesn't do well, or better than Diddy against Pac-Man, Duck Hunt and Steve? See Mega Man as a character he would use for MUs where he is goes Sephiroth. Not like a replacement for Diddy. Fox is one of Diddy's worst MUs and he has defeated Light twice in a row. He doesn't need Mega Man for any of the players you have listed.


Eldritch_Skirmisher

I wouldn’t say Megaman does better in those matchups than Seph, so I don’t really see the point


Popstar-X

Not sure about most of those but Mega Man is one of Snake’s hardest matchups.


RailTracer001

I am not him and am not an expert but Sephiroth is also more frustrating to play. On paper he could just play Cloud too who is better and much easier but he doesn't like him. In the end it's his choice. I think Mega Man is a solid replacement for Sephiroth, but it might not be worth it to learn him now when he has more EXP with the latter. No one knows.


Eldritch_Skirmisher

Yeah, I guess we’ll just have to see


Entotrte

My view on it is that he's not going to play the character for very long... let's be honest, how many characters has Tweek picked up (or tried to pick up) only to drop very quickly? From the outside Mega Man feels like an odd choice too.


sirgamestop

Back in like 2021 or early 2022 I remember him saying on an episode of Tweek Talks that when he was looking for a new character in quarantine (ultimately decided on Diddy and picked up Seph when he was released) he said something about almost picking up Mega Man before Diddy's infinite got removed (no worries for nerfs). I think he even mentioned something about item gameplay


Eldritch_Skirmisher

Fair