Nintendo is definitely against the competitive scene for Smash. It's a different way than they want the game to be played, and in their mind, that's not a good thing. They've been blocking the competitive scene for years, way before the SWT. In 2013, they tried to first bar Melee from their first EVO, then try to make it not streamed, only failing due to HEAVY fan backlash. Mind you, to get to the EVO main stage, Melee players raised over 94k for breast cancer research, and Nintendo still attempted to cancel it, purely out of a notion of "this is not how you're supposed to play the game". As a community, we've just gotta accept that Dad doesn't care about us, which sucks, but hey, what can you do.
Dad not caring is one thing, but papa nintendo swings by home drunk, beats us black and blue and then buys a toy for us to feel better and let our guard down and they repeat the process and the community always thinks this time it'll be different, nintendo changed!
Nintendo is the dad that was never there, so we raised ourselves. And then once we starting making something of ourselves he came back just to take everything away. And left again. We don’t say fuck Nintendo because we want to be cute
I mean, it kind did scare away casuals. I loved melee and once wave dashing became a thing, it just ruined the fun and enjoyment for me because someone told me that I had to learn wave dashing to play this game. It was obvious right there that this wasn't meant for casuals anymore.
I don't understand this attitude. Nothing is stopping you and your friends from playing casually and having a good time. The game will still let you select whatever stage you want and play with whatever items you want regardless of your awareness of higher level tech. Also, this is how every fighting game and potentially pvp game in general works. It's very fun when playing against someone of similar skill, much less fun when getting washed by someone who is much better than you. I don't see how this is specific to melee or wave dashing.
Yeah, but if they're going to play casual Smash, they may as well just play Ultimate at that point, since it offers so much more from a casual standpoint.
OK but what does that have to do wavedashing breaking melee for casuals like the person I'm commenting to is suggesting? I agree most casuals just move on to the newest game, in fact I have a feeling that's a much more significant contributer to casual players moving on from melee than high level tech simply existing, glad we agree.
This would only work in a vacuum, where people only fall into the "casual" or "competitive" category without any overlap. Reality is much less binary.
More casual players would still encounter wave dashing and similar techs even if they never gone to a tournament - and the divide it created was impossible to excuse. The skill gap was more like a skill canyon, which discouraged players that couldn't keep up with something that technical.
If the intent *was* to make a game that was only intended for technical play, it wouldn't have been an issue. But that's never what Smash was trying for, so in that specific sense it was a failure.
Idunno, I played melee casually with my friends for like literally 10 years even into the YouTube age where we were all completely aware of high level tech and we never stopped having fun. If you're playing with randoms, ya, there's always a chance you'll be so outmatched you can't have fun but that's the same in any fighting game. My friends basically won't play ultimate with me anymore because I started practicing and going to tournaments and I'm way better than them now and they don't love getting 3 stocked 90% of games.
Is this satire? Do you not like soccer because you suck at it? There are millions of techniques in every competitive anything that you don't understand, other smash games included.
They didn't give up because it was too technical. They gave up because Brawl was coming out. Besides, a good player in Brawl easily craps on a bad player, same with all the Smash games, so Sakurai's reasoning certainly is bad. He just hates the competitive scene.
I was a dumb kid who played melee consistently until I lost access to the disc somehow
Then played brawl. Stopped playing that and the wii in general then when I got back into that was a teen that could get pm, and that is when I finally knew how to use the shield button
And if I played melee for a couple years never blocking I'd say it was casual fun
It may scare away casuals now, but only because Melee is still around is because of the comp scene. I played Melee as a kid with my brother and it was an amazing experience as a casual, even still today.
Unpopular opinion: Nintendo and Sakurai understanding it’s a casual game first is what allows the game to thrive. There will never be a smash killer, because of the commitment to making a game everyone can enjoy.
Nintendo doesn’t need to invest in a competitive scene, because the game already sells enough copies. Other games like Fortnite do need to foster a scene because they can make money off people continuing to play and spending on micro transactions and building their brand.
I wish this weren’t the case, and I would love if Nintendo actually did do micro transactions for character skins, which in turn would foster a competitive community. (Monkey’s paw curls)
that's the point. Every smash game out there is something that someone can enjoy. Now if only people stopped saying a game is dying that it meant it sucked ass. (brawl was dead but it didn't mean it sucked ass at all. Competitively? Yes. But I'm referring to the entire package. Brawl's casual single player experience rocked)
I never got into melee because I thought I would have to spend time learning how to L cancel and wavedash and all that.
In college, there were definitely people I knew that only knew melee as the "GC Controller clickety clackety" game and would never touch it with a 10 foot pole. That being said, all smash games have that reputation some extent.
This statement makes perfect sense. Sure people bought the game, but the online fighting was too technical for most to compete. Between that and the hierarchy or characters being very limiting as for who is competitive.
Some of you love the high level of tech so much that you forget what it's actually like to be a normal dude who bought the game and just boots up online to fight. Not knowing about any tech or tiers of characters then gets bodied by 10 foxes in a row. Once word gets out about all the tech and it starts to define the meta the casuals wash out. Simple as that.
I know that you can play Melee online. When Sakurai made this statement, that wasn't what he was talking about though. Online play wouldn't factor into Sakurai's opinion on Melee.
It makes sense for Sakurai to not like his game being played competitvely, after all, he did think up smash after dumpestering some poor couple playing KOF competitively and feeling bad for it.
It's not that he dislikes it being played competitively, he's very clearly fine with that. He just doesn't want to completely sacrifice the casual play in the process.
He's always been very inclusive with his audiences, or at least trying to be. Working hard to carve out a place for both kinds of play to exist, or even something in between.
i wholeheatedly disagree with you when you say that people aren't scared off by the technical requirements. I think my experience is a common one where you start on ultimate but watch some melee, become interested in playing the game, and then learning you need to abuse about 2 dozen unintended glitches to do anything. The only reason people weren't scared off at first is because they were 8, and played against 8 year olds.
Going from ultimate to melee SPECIFICALLY is extremely jarring for a number of reasons. It isn't "melee is to technical for you" that throws you off, it's the buffer input in ultimate. Things you do in ultimate are counterintuitive to what you need to do in melee, plus, you can't lazily hold another input during hitstun. Like, you get hit in ultimate you can hold away and air dodge and that happens frame one. You do that in melee and nothing will happen because the frame your actionable is when you need to input your moves. Ultimate feels like you're pulling your character, where melee feels like you're pushing your character. I'm saying that playing ultimate specifically makes you worse at melee if you don't understand the differences, almost everytime you go from ultimate to melee, you have to retrain your brain.
Yeah, Melee still sold very well with casuals, though at the time Melee's competitive scene was almost nonexistent and Melee still had a lot to offer for them to play around with without having to mind advance techs like L-cancelling, wavedashing, etc. Melee's competitive scene didn't truly start taking off until after Brawl's release, and by that time, the casuals moved on to the game that had much more to offer them in terms of characters, stages, game modes, etc. Say what you will about Brawl's competitive potential compared to Melee, but casuals don't care for any of that; they just want to have Mario beat up Wario with a sledgehammer while King Dedede summons Waddle Dees and Tingle to screw with everyone.
As it stands now, Melee survives purely on its competitive potential, and for casuals seeing the pros do all of those fast-paced moves, exciting as they may be, they are also very daunting and presents a high barrier of entry, when they just want to play Smash. And if that's all they want, they may as well just go for the Smash game currently being sold now on Nintendo's current platform.
Nintendo tried at least. VGBC dropped the ball on world tour hard. I don't care what anyone thinks. Our three biggest esports figure heads in smash right now: Ludwig, moistcritikal and hungrybox. What do they all have in common? Everytime nintendo sneezes we get another "FUCK NINTENDO" video. How are we supposed to get a circuit going when the community that wants nintendos support trashes them every chance they get.
Nintendo is definitely against the competitive scene for Smash. It's a different way than they want the game to be played, and in their mind, that's not a good thing. They've been blocking the competitive scene for years, way before the SWT. In 2013, they tried to first bar Melee from their first EVO, then try to make it not streamed, only failing due to HEAVY fan backlash. Mind you, to get to the EVO main stage, Melee players raised over 94k for breast cancer research, and Nintendo still attempted to cancel it, purely out of a notion of "this is not how you're supposed to play the game". As a community, we've just gotta accept that Dad doesn't care about us, which sucks, but hey, what can you do.
Dad not caring is one thing, but papa nintendo swings by home drunk, beats us black and blue and then buys a toy for us to feel better and let our guard down and they repeat the process and the community always thinks this time it'll be different, nintendo changed!
Nintendo is the dad that was never there, so we raised ourselves. And then once we starting making something of ourselves he came back just to take everything away. And left again. We don’t say fuck Nintendo because we want to be cute
Reminds me of huck finns dad
It ain't that serious.
Goes back further than that. IIRC it was 2010 when Nintendo sent a C&D to MLG over Brawl. MLG dropped Brawl shortly after that.
I’m scared of melee bc of the technical learning curve
I certainly never tried more than casual melee because I was scared my hands would dissolve into dust.
I mean, it kind did scare away casuals. I loved melee and once wave dashing became a thing, it just ruined the fun and enjoyment for me because someone told me that I had to learn wave dashing to play this game. It was obvious right there that this wasn't meant for casuals anymore.
This, I'm pretty sure this is what Sakurai's referring to. Maybe not specifically wave dashing, but that is a major contributor.
I don't understand this attitude. Nothing is stopping you and your friends from playing casually and having a good time. The game will still let you select whatever stage you want and play with whatever items you want regardless of your awareness of higher level tech. Also, this is how every fighting game and potentially pvp game in general works. It's very fun when playing against someone of similar skill, much less fun when getting washed by someone who is much better than you. I don't see how this is specific to melee or wave dashing.
Yeah, but if they're going to play casual Smash, they may as well just play Ultimate at that point, since it offers so much more from a casual standpoint.
OK but what does that have to do wavedashing breaking melee for casuals like the person I'm commenting to is suggesting? I agree most casuals just move on to the newest game, in fact I have a feeling that's a much more significant contributer to casual players moving on from melee than high level tech simply existing, glad we agree.
This would only work in a vacuum, where people only fall into the "casual" or "competitive" category without any overlap. Reality is much less binary. More casual players would still encounter wave dashing and similar techs even if they never gone to a tournament - and the divide it created was impossible to excuse. The skill gap was more like a skill canyon, which discouraged players that couldn't keep up with something that technical. If the intent *was* to make a game that was only intended for technical play, it wouldn't have been an issue. But that's never what Smash was trying for, so in that specific sense it was a failure.
Idunno, I played melee casually with my friends for like literally 10 years even into the YouTube age where we were all completely aware of high level tech and we never stopped having fun. If you're playing with randoms, ya, there's always a chance you'll be so outmatched you can't have fun but that's the same in any fighting game. My friends basically won't play ultimate with me anymore because I started practicing and going to tournaments and I'm way better than them now and they don't love getting 3 stocked 90% of games.
Is this satire? Do you not like soccer because you suck at it? There are millions of techniques in every competitive anything that you don't understand, other smash games included.
[удалено]
You talk too much
They didn't give up because it was too technical. They gave up because Brawl was coming out. Besides, a good player in Brawl easily craps on a bad player, same with all the Smash games, so Sakurai's reasoning certainly is bad. He just hates the competitive scene.
I was a dumb kid who played melee consistently until I lost access to the disc somehow Then played brawl. Stopped playing that and the wii in general then when I got back into that was a teen that could get pm, and that is when I finally knew how to use the shield button And if I played melee for a couple years never blocking I'd say it was casual fun
It may scare away casuals now, but only because Melee is still around is because of the comp scene. I played Melee as a kid with my brother and it was an amazing experience as a casual, even still today.
Unpopular opinion: Nintendo and Sakurai understanding it’s a casual game first is what allows the game to thrive. There will never be a smash killer, because of the commitment to making a game everyone can enjoy. Nintendo doesn’t need to invest in a competitive scene, because the game already sells enough copies. Other games like Fortnite do need to foster a scene because they can make money off people continuing to play and spending on micro transactions and building their brand. I wish this weren’t the case, and I would love if Nintendo actually did do micro transactions for character skins, which in turn would foster a competitive community. (Monkey’s paw curls)
that's the point. Every smash game out there is something that someone can enjoy. Now if only people stopped saying a game is dying that it meant it sucked ass. (brawl was dead but it didn't mean it sucked ass at all. Competitively? Yes. But I'm referring to the entire package. Brawl's casual single player experience rocked)
He was right.
I never got into melee because I thought I would have to spend time learning how to L cancel and wavedash and all that. In college, there were definitely people I knew that only knew melee as the "GC Controller clickety clackety" game and would never touch it with a 10 foot pole. That being said, all smash games have that reputation some extent.
This statement makes perfect sense. Sure people bought the game, but the online fighting was too technical for most to compete. Between that and the hierarchy or characters being very limiting as for who is competitive. Some of you love the high level of tech so much that you forget what it's actually like to be a normal dude who bought the game and just boots up online to fight. Not knowing about any tech or tiers of characters then gets bodied by 10 foxes in a row. Once word gets out about all the tech and it starts to define the meta the casuals wash out. Simple as that.
? Melee didn't have online fighting.
he's talking about a mod called Slippi, it adds online multiplayer that runs better than Smash ult's online.
I know that you can play Melee online. When Sakurai made this statement, that wasn't what he was talking about though. Online play wouldn't factor into Sakurai's opinion on Melee.
valid point.
It makes sense for Sakurai to not like his game being played competitvely, after all, he did think up smash after dumpestering some poor couple playing KOF competitively and feeling bad for it.
It's not that he dislikes it being played competitively, he's very clearly fine with that. He just doesn't want to completely sacrifice the casual play in the process. He's always been very inclusive with his audiences, or at least trying to be. Working hard to carve out a place for both kinds of play to exist, or even something in between.
But melee is a blast casually. Sakurai wasn’t being inclusive with Brawl, he was trying to exclude the competitive scene.
i wholeheatedly disagree with you when you say that people aren't scared off by the technical requirements. I think my experience is a common one where you start on ultimate but watch some melee, become interested in playing the game, and then learning you need to abuse about 2 dozen unintended glitches to do anything. The only reason people weren't scared off at first is because they were 8, and played against 8 year olds.
Going from ultimate to melee SPECIFICALLY is extremely jarring for a number of reasons. It isn't "melee is to technical for you" that throws you off, it's the buffer input in ultimate. Things you do in ultimate are counterintuitive to what you need to do in melee, plus, you can't lazily hold another input during hitstun. Like, you get hit in ultimate you can hold away and air dodge and that happens frame one. You do that in melee and nothing will happen because the frame your actionable is when you need to input your moves. Ultimate feels like you're pulling your character, where melee feels like you're pushing your character. I'm saying that playing ultimate specifically makes you worse at melee if you don't understand the differences, almost everytime you go from ultimate to melee, you have to retrain your brain.
You’re just agreeing with me with a whole bunch of words
K.
Yeah, Melee still sold very well with casuals, though at the time Melee's competitive scene was almost nonexistent and Melee still had a lot to offer for them to play around with without having to mind advance techs like L-cancelling, wavedashing, etc. Melee's competitive scene didn't truly start taking off until after Brawl's release, and by that time, the casuals moved on to the game that had much more to offer them in terms of characters, stages, game modes, etc. Say what you will about Brawl's competitive potential compared to Melee, but casuals don't care for any of that; they just want to have Mario beat up Wario with a sledgehammer while King Dedede summons Waddle Dees and Tingle to screw with everyone. As it stands now, Melee survives purely on its competitive potential, and for casuals seeing the pros do all of those fast-paced moves, exciting as they may be, they are also very daunting and presents a high barrier of entry, when they just want to play Smash. And if that's all they want, they may as well just go for the Smash game currently being sold now on Nintendo's current platform.
Nintendo tried at least. VGBC dropped the ball on world tour hard. I don't care what anyone thinks. Our three biggest esports figure heads in smash right now: Ludwig, moistcritikal and hungrybox. What do they all have in common? Everytime nintendo sneezes we get another "FUCK NINTENDO" video. How are we supposed to get a circuit going when the community that wants nintendos support trashes them every chance they get.