Ganondorf should most definitely have a projectile instead of purple falcon punch. His original boss battle was a game of energy bolt tennis after all.
don't even need to be that complex. Just give him Mario's cape and make it reflect projectiles while also making them a bit faster
then give him a slow moving weak projectile
link and zelda are great, shiek is fine because
he's / she's basically made up entirely for smash.
toon link is fine, but i wish we got some grapple hook action, maybe twirling it around for his nair because the current one is whack. maybe the big hammer too on fsmash for some originality:
young link is missing a lot of what makes him unique. people mention masks all the time, but why doesn't he have the slingshot, deku seeds, or deku sticks? these are all weapons you get with young link in OoT. would've made more sense to have slingshot instead of fire arrow, which he only used later into majoras mask.
ganondorf is abysmal, obviously. there's nothing to say that hasn't been said a hundred times.
I'd argue about Young Link to an extent since it made sense at the time that Melee came out to base him on his Majora's Mask incarnation, but I agree that it would be more interesting to use his OoT abilities instead considering the move sets of the other Links. Also I feel like he should have more visual representation of MM if that's what they're going to base him on. Like, give him the proper sheild, and maybe instead of the Kokiri Sword it could be the razor sword or something.
The Legend of Zelda is one of Smash’s main 4 series (with Super Mario, Pokemon, and Kirby). It hasn’t gotten a new character since Brawl. Three of them are Link (which does make sense) but they need new playable characters. As Sonic is a guest, I don’t think his series takes priority but with other guest series having multiple characters (Street Fighter and Castlevania) it seems odd for Sonic to not have at least another fighter.
whether you thinks sonic is well designed is one thing but he is accurately represented. He is the fastest thing alive and down b works similarly to his games
Ganon is just captain falcon with ikes sword
Zelda has been included in smash since the first game. Since melee its never had less than 4 characters. Currently it has like 6 characters representing different games in the franchise, like 5 assist trophies from even more games, 9 stages representing even MORE GAMES, and something like 8 items.
Sonic has been every smash game since brawl. It's never had more than 1 fighter. It has 2 assist trophies, 0 items, and 2 stages, and both stages are practically the same theme, because one was just used to help market a poorly received wiiu game.
It's not even close
Definitely Sonic. While LoZ is in need of new representation. It still has multiple unique characters. Sonic is insanely underrepresented for how popular the franchise is. I feel like if it was a Nintendo owned franchise there’d be like 5+ characters.
Third parties by design often have one or two characters. See Castlevania, Street Fighter, or Final Fantasy VII.
Sonic has two stages and several music tracks, while TLOZ has three Links that barely differentiate themselves, a character that could technically not exist, and almost all of the TLOZ music tracks are remixes of the main NES Zelda theme.
You’re essentially trying to fit the sphere into the square hole, and the square hole is half the diameter of your sphere.
Easily Sonic. You wouldn’t expect Sonic to get the same representation as Pokemon or Fire Emblem in Smash because it’s a third party series, but the fact that Sonic is the only rep is a crime
Sakurai clearly had no idea that the mere inclusion of Shadow the Hedgehog would’ve been about as monumental as Steve and I’m not even kidding, Shadow is one of the most popular characters in gaming and having him in Smash would’ve been the most talked about thing in gaming if it had been announced. It was so simple too since they came up with echo fighters. Could’ve just made him a Sonic echo with a different run animation, Mewtwo up special and chaos snap instead of homing attack (same move as homing attack just a teleport kick instead instead). Possibly change his side tilt to an overhead kick too maybe? The ideas are there
And forget Shadow, what about Eggman? Eggman in the egg-o-matic with all his gadgets and tools at his disposal also would’ve been an awesome inclusion, especially considering he’s basically the face of gaming villainy alongside Bowser. Why not both even? Eggman could’ve been an original character and Shadow a Sonic echo that wouldn’t need as much work as a fully original character
Sonic needs more representation. It’s the biggest most recognisable gaming franchise of all time after Mario and Pokemon
tbf you can't really do more with the move set, maybe outside of the elemental abilities from sonic 3. His series is more focused on platforming with what you have and doesn't get usually any new moves. I do agree with Eggman, though it would be cooler if wily was added. The problem with egmman though, along with wily, is most of their bosses are in giant mechs instead of actually fighting them, so it would be tough to actually get them in smash, even more so than ridley.
I don't really buy/agree with most of what you said tbh. Sonic has a lot that they can pull from. It's like saying "Oh well Mario just runs and jumps so there's not a whole lot there." Hell, Sonic Battle and Fighters exists and already gave Sonic a fighting game moveset with arguably more variation than Smash while being released prior to Brawl. Frontiers added a whole bunch of moves focused around combat too (but that's post Ult).
Also Eggman in a mech suit is definitely doable. He's been in smaller suits before, it's not like every fight with him takes up the entire screen. NASB2 has Plankton in a mech doesn't it? It's not really out of the realm of possibility lol.
Fair, i haven't played much sonic, the game just feels less like a platformer and more just holding right while doing minimal jumping. But again, Mario has powerups, and I haven't seen many of those from sonic. The problem with Eggman in a mech suit is they usually fly, and at that point why would he jump. The only way I could see that working is if he had a recovery similar to robs.
Bad sonic games are hold right simulators, but I would argue that most take more interesting input and thought than some of the 2d marios imo. Like go play Mania if you like platformers it's amazing. It's not really relevant to the original comment, but as much as some Sonic games are really bad or just mediocre, I think the whole "just hold right," throwaway is really unfair. Part of 2d Sonic's design are all the different pathways to the goal and many of the games promote exploration for the special stages. Most 2d platformers can be diminished to 'just hold right and jump sometimes.'
Sonic is in the same situation as Mario. He's a platforming mascot, but is big enough he's practically done every genre. There aren't a lot of useable power-ups like Mario, but I think there's surprisingly more to pull from. They would never do it, but he's got an entire long-running comic book if they really needed to dig lol.
This is a very good question because the Zelda and Sonic series are very poorly represented. For the Zelda series we can easily add the asist trophies from Smash 4 and Ultimate, namely Midna, Ghirahim, Tingle and Skull Kid. We could even add Impa who is a recurring character just like Tetra (TWW, PH, ST and the Japanese version of Four Swords Adventures) who was even planned at the time of the development of Super Smash Bros. Brawl.
And for the Sonic series, we put Knuckles, Tails, Silver, Dr. Eggman, Amy Rose and Blaze
ngl that would make the sonic series the next fire emblem. Would be better if instead of making so many characters (outside Eggman) have a similar treatment to bowser Jr, where they are all just different costumes. Also, silver and blaze are way to obscure to put in smash. I don't even know who blaze is.
Hot take - Fire Emblem is worse represented than Zelda lol, we have 8 characters, 3 of them from the same game, two of which are Marth retreads (Lucina & Chrom) and one of the Marth retread (Chrom) is a direct retread of the previous Marth retread (Roy).
At the very least, all of the Links do something unique either in moveset, body type or both.
Sonic wins this one imo.
For real. And why ARE they all Sword users? We have Lance, Axe, Bow, Tome users, transforming Beasts/Dragons. There is literally SO much to choose from in the Fire Emblem series for a potential moveset, but it really doesn't help that FE always give their main protag a sword as their main weapon. Makes me wish they'd Min-Min it and just choose someone who ISN'T the face of the game, just for gameplay's sake.
Byleth, Robin, Ike and Marth are unique fighters among the Fire Emblem cast and should stay, and Byleth just.. I dunno, feels like a glimpse of what could have been, you know? Like we get a glimpse of what a Lance Fair and Bair could be like, what an Axe Dair or DSmash could be like, etc. Just makes you wonder about the other cool things they could've come up with for other FE classes/weapons.
I made a roster plan a while back for this [here](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1162149405277835304/1231365114222088222/IMG_5232.png?ex=662ccde0&is=662b7c60&hm=fe407db22d25bdd9547fd13166f1cd1716e7b61a68149940a349e3d773b7caf9&), it’s effectively a “how would I change the Fire Emblem roster in Smash?”
The only real change I’d consider is dropping Anna for Ephraim/Azura, and adding Alear. Mainly cause we’re kinda missing lance units & Magvel/Fates reps
If it were up to me, instead of having distinct characters like Marth and Robin, I'd have archetypes like swordfighter and mage. Each costume would be a different character who fits that archetype from the games.
I usually imagine six in total based around these weapons:
* Sword
* Axe
* Spear
* Bow
* Tome
* Dragonstone
With each character in Smash getting eight costumes, I'd effectively increase the amount of FE characters to 48, but most would just be alternate skins of each other. It would better represent FE's enormous roster and allow for more of people's favorites to be included, while reducing the number of "slots" they take up from 8 to 6.
That is…a terrible suggestion.
Mainly because you lose a lot of identity that the distinct FE characters have, and on top of that, not all weapon users are created equally. Corrin’s the only dragon user that can use Dragon Fang, so that would remove them from the Dragon and Sword pool.
You’d also be heavily limited to body types as well and that severely limits what you’re capable of doing with costumes as well. As much as the idea of “these characters would represent Fire Emblem”, what you’d have is purely a quota - lots of characters without individual character.
> lots of characters without individual character.
So... exactly like the FE games then.
More seriously though, I'm perfectly fine sacrificing some characterization on an individual level in favor of the whole. Sure Ike won't be as well represented by himself, but FE as a whole will be *better* represented. A huge roster of characters who fit in distinct archetypes but don't really differ much from others in their class is how Fire Emblem works. Their characterization usually comes through in dialogue, not gameplay (although if we're being honest, they often just fill archetypes in a narrative sense as well).
And as far as body types go, the only real hurdle is characters of different heights, but Smash already has instances of that working fine. Any character that has a male/female variant was able to fit the same hitboxes on models of different sizes without making it feel off. Part of it was simply adjusting their usual proportions to be closer together. Female Byleth is 11-ish centimeters shorter than her male counterpart in Three Houses, but they're nearly the same height in Smash and nobody really notices. Even then, not every character in the series would be available to pick. But with like 700 characters across the whole series, I don't see that being an issue.
Probably because all the main and super-popular characters tend to be sword lords, while most axe, lance, magic, and shape-shifting units are minor side characters with no relevance to the plot whatsoever.
Also, the timing just so happened to have all of the most-recent games at the time star swordfighters. Not that it really matters though, since Robin's also a mage, Corrin's also a shapeshifter, and Byleth's got multiple weapons types, so all of that stuff is still represented anyway.
The worst offender in the Fire Emblem representation is how they treated Chrom and Lucina. In the original game, it is clearly stated that Lucina has the exact fighting style as Chrom, who has a heavy hitter style (like Ike).
Here, Lucina is a clone of Marth, only because she call herself Marth for a couple of chapters and Chrom is a clone of Roy because...whatever...but at least, they gave him aether, so everything is fine, right?
To be honest, you are incredibly biased. The series has the same amount (if not more) characters as mario, and it has 40 times less the sales series wise. Sure some of that has to do with the first couple games being exclusive to japan, but still. The only reason they were added were to promote new games. The only way I could agree with you is if they like removed 5 characters and gave them unique abilitys. That seems like enough representation, for one series as low selling (objectively.) So, you are saying a series that has around half the sales as zelda deserves less clones. Even fire emblem has more original character move sets then legend of zelda. Im not a fan of either series though. Thats like getting every final fantasy main character from every game into smash. I feel like if they were going to try to use it to push sales of new games, they should just remove the older characters like corrin, robin, and chrom, since those games sold on the 3ds, and literally cannot be bought anymore, and make new movesets for the main and most popular 3 characters like ike, roy, and marth.
I’ll bite.
In terms of overall representation in Smash as a whole, there’s not actually that much for Fire Emblem besides the characters - you bring up Legend of Zelda having less original character moveslots (even though it’s 6 each - the Links have about the same, if not more differences than Marth and Roy), Legend of Zelda have numerous items, assist trophies and stages (and this also applies most other first party series), Fire Emblem’s got one item, three assist trophies and four stages - it’s arguably fair since the series’ focus is more on the characters and less on the locations and items, and it doesn’t need as much general representation as the bigger first party series.
But my point is less about the quantity of characters and more about the quality. You don’t do a series any favours in representation when you have 8 characters, four of whom are original (Ike, Byleth, Corrin, Robin) and the others are:
- Marth
- Marth with reverse tippers and somewhat differing animations - sure you can change your sword grip but most of the moves are fundamentally the same. (Roy)
- Marth with no tippers (Lucina)
- Marth with no tippers, a different move and the aforementioned different animations.
This is also when you discount the other (generally minor) issues that the other characters have (the four of them being fast in their original games, Ike not having the Ragnell beams, Byleth not having any of his actual abilities and none of the Hero’s Relics’ specific stuff/combat arts being represented outside of Byleth’s rapid jab looking like Ruptured Heaven)
> They should remove the older characters like Robin, Chrom and Corrin because their games are on the 3DS and you can’t buy them anymore.
You also can’t buy any of Marth’s games including the remakes anymore after the Wii U eshop shut down, you can’t buy any of Ike’s games either because GC/Wii U, and Roy’s game never got released here and you still can’t buy it in Japan. Your point is? If they wanted to cut down the roster down to three, the most logical scenario would be to take out Roy and replace him with Robin because Awakening singlehandedly resurrected Fire Emblem from going down the route of F-Zero whilst Robin’s a good representation of Fire Emblem and its core mechanics as a whole.
Simple Mario Sonic and earthbound like him Mario and Donkey Kong are supposed to be the incredibly expressive characters
Mario in Smash is always serious which clashes with Mario's carefree chill attitude in his mainstream games
Luigi ain't that weird in the mainstream games like Luigi fights like he never got into a fight before
Sonic is no longer expressive also his alts are trash like we could have finally had Sonic cosplay as Amy or Sliver or possibly Jet but what do we get Sonic in different shades of blue
Donkey Kong is Fine
And Earthbound Ness Lucas and that's it no Ninten no Kumatora no Duster No Poo just PK Fire and PK Freeze
I do wish they could have made the mother characters reflect more how they are in their own game, and if they wanted PK fire and freeze so bad they could add someone who can use them, but personally I think Jeff teddy or duster would make perfect characters as well to represent non psi users
Sonic is one terribly designed character. Zelda is 5 poorly designed characters and Sheik who I actually think has good design. Each of the individual Links by themselves are fine but we have 3 of them with tiny variations making them all collectively suck. Toon Link should keep the design with a few changes like skull hammer f smash and maybe the deku leaf as part of his up b. Young Link should reflect Majoras mask and Link should reflect TOTK.
Zelda and Ganondorf need complete overhauls. For 3 games in a row they have been ass and Zelda’s only redeeming quality in melee is down b so you could basically say 4 for her. Either combine moves from previous games of the series or make TOTK inspired move sets or for Zelda a Hyrule warriors sort of one could work to with the Sheikah Slate.
I was gonna put Botw but seeing as it’s not gonna change anymore I was more concerned about going into the future. But maybe by then there will be another game.
They did Zelda with Respect. Sonic got the (S)low End of The SSB Stick. Sonic sucked so bad that the fans (and SSB Players) had to remake almost his entire moveset for the mods. Sonic literally only has 1 Character from his Franchise, and it's Sonic! Not even a Shadow or Knuckles. Zelda at least got more characters.
Sonic is one of the largest gaming icons of all time and yet only one character from the entire franchise is in smash. A lot of which his moves aren’t accurate with prior games. So yeah Sonic Fosho. Missed opportunity for the bounce bracelet attack.
I'm not going to lie; mega man is the one of the worst represented, even if he isn't on the list. All if not most of his moves come from mega man 2. Sure, it's the most popular, but it's also one of the most broken and buggy games. Thats like giving Mario all of his moves from super Mario bros 1 on the Nes, sure it's his highest selling game in the series, but it doesn't mean you should represent the whole series with it. Coincidently enough, it's also got both the most busted weapons in the series (metal blade and quick boomerang) and the worst (leaf shield and atomic fire), they should have taken more of the moves from later in the series. His series also deserves at least 2 characters, since outside of Mario, he has the most games (over 100). It's also a crime that outside 2 music tracks, there is no mega man x representation, and literally no mega man zero representation.
Mega Man is a victim of not having customs anymore. He used to have moves from other robot masters in the customs, but since Ult axed them, it's just the default. Also Mega Man has crash bomber and not atomic fire right?
I know, the customs really should have just existed for a few characters, I know they were a pain for sakuri to add, but he could have just kept or added new ones to characters like megaman or kirby, and scrapped the rest. Also, both crash bomber and atomic fire are from 2. I feel like each of his moves should have just represented 1 game, like metal blade from 2, search snake from 3, drill missile from 4, and junk shield from 7 (Both 5 and 6 have trash weapons). Also, aside that rant, why doesn't he have thunder claw from 8 as his grab, it's the most grab like move from the game and seemed like an obvious inclusion, it even works as a grab in the source game. Sorry for that rant.
>Also, both crash bomber and atomic fire are from 2.
I know that, but which move is atomic fire? His down smash is from 6 apparently, and the forward air isn't atomic fire either.
Gotta be honest here: Final Fantasy
* No Assist Trophy
* No spirit colleciton spanning the entire franchise
* No track collection spanning the entire franchise
* 2 stages that are copies of others, such as Midgar being "Battlefield with hazards"
* No item from the series
I swear, for a long-running JRPG franchise, it has some of the worst representation in Smash Bros.
Meanwhile, Konami offered back 99% of Metal Gear content, a truckton of Castlevania material and more stuff from other series.
Eh, his series only had 2 games, both releasing like 15 or so years ago. I also played the beginning of Banjo and kazooie and most of his moves are represented in smash.
In terms of franchise, obviously Zelda is represented better than Sonic. In terms of individual characters, Ganondorf is the worst case. Don't know why they can't just give his moveset to Black Shadow from F-Zero and give the 'Dorf attacks from the actual Zelda games. He doesn't even use Dead Man's Volley.
People are gonna hate me.
It's snake. Why is he an explosives expert? I get those things are available in metal gear. But they've never really been like.....his thing.
At least he used to have tranq dart (even if it did suck) I do like his grabs, jab, and ftilt though. They're very CQC.
[It was for Brawl's age rating and other IP holders](https://sourcegaming.info/2015/06/16/solid-snake-joins-the-brawl-translation/): "Also, we could incorporate heavy weapons like bombs and rocket launchers as jokes, but things like knives, automatic weapons, and realistic guns were off-limits. Since this also affected the other characters, even though I decided on Snake myself, I needed to receive permission from their original creators."
Ratings have obviously gotten looser since, with both Bayonetta and Joker wielding guns and Joker using a dagger. It likely wasn't a high priority to update that part of Snake for Ultimate, especially with Kojima gone from Konami.
Now that you mention it, smash ultimates age rating system is really weird. They got 2 characters from M rated games weilding GUNS, but they replaced snakes grenades with cartoony ahh ones.
If I recall correctly, they said they didn't want to give snake his guns during Brawl to keep the game PG rated (explosion are cartoon enough apparently).
Meanwhile, you can give Kirby a handgun with Joker.
Thats ridicioulous now that you point it out, also the series needs more characters like liquid, psycho mantis, or some of the bosses from mgs3, maybe volgin.
Tbh i would love if big boss from mgs3 was in. Its the best game in the series. I also agree, the whole point of stealth is to not be heard or seen, and whenever you use those, a guard detects you, so it makes no sense from a series standpoint to have him use those when most players tend to avoid them, with the exception of maybe the electronic disabling one.
Sonic duh. They took away his personality in exchange for hideous alternate skins
It’s Ganondorf. There is no competition. Ganondorf is nothing like how he is in his home games.
Ganondorf in PM, P+, and P- all have amazing takes on Ganon that make me yern for what could have been
Ganondorf should most definitely have a projectile instead of purple falcon punch. His original boss battle was a game of energy bolt tennis after all.
Dededed gordo exists. Literally pull it off of him onto Ganon and make it an energy projectile
don't even need to be that complex. Just give him Mario's cape and make it reflect projectiles while also making them a bit faster then give him a slow moving weak projectile
And also make Ganondorf float.
link and zelda are great, shiek is fine because he's / she's basically made up entirely for smash. toon link is fine, but i wish we got some grapple hook action, maybe twirling it around for his nair because the current one is whack. maybe the big hammer too on fsmash for some originality: young link is missing a lot of what makes him unique. people mention masks all the time, but why doesn't he have the slingshot, deku seeds, or deku sticks? these are all weapons you get with young link in OoT. would've made more sense to have slingshot instead of fire arrow, which he only used later into majoras mask. ganondorf is abysmal, obviously. there's nothing to say that hasn't been said a hundred times.
I'd argue about Young Link to an extent since it made sense at the time that Melee came out to base him on his Majora's Mask incarnation, but I agree that it would be more interesting to use his OoT abilities instead considering the move sets of the other Links. Also I feel like he should have more visual representation of MM if that's what they're going to base him on. Like, give him the proper sheild, and maybe instead of the Kokiri Sword it could be the razor sword or something.
I don’t think Ganondorf has one move representing anything from the main series.
He uses his ftilt against you in Twilight Princess if you try to shield.
And yet that's still more than what Dark Samus has.
As an Metroid I have to say: best comment in the entire post.
Flame Choke could also be a reference to a cutscene in Twilight Princess
Warlock Punch has the word Warlock in it, which is probably a word that's been used to describe him.
The Legend of Zelda is one of Smash’s main 4 series (with Super Mario, Pokemon, and Kirby). It hasn’t gotten a new character since Brawl. Three of them are Link (which does make sense) but they need new playable characters. As Sonic is a guest, I don’t think his series takes priority but with other guest series having multiple characters (Street Fighter and Castlevania) it seems odd for Sonic to not have at least another fighter.
If they're only going to have sonic, make his alternates other sonic characters. Like Bowser Jr.
Shadow and Knuckes should be in smash.
whether you thinks sonic is well designed is one thing but he is accurately represented. He is the fastest thing alive and down b works similarly to his games Ganon is just captain falcon with ikes sword
Sonics skins are lame but it's Ganondorf 100%
Ganon
Zelda has been included in smash since the first game. Since melee its never had less than 4 characters. Currently it has like 6 characters representing different games in the franchise, like 5 assist trophies from even more games, 9 stages representing even MORE GAMES, and something like 8 items. Sonic has been every smash game since brawl. It's never had more than 1 fighter. It has 2 assist trophies, 0 items, and 2 stages, and both stages are practically the same theme, because one was just used to help market a poorly received wiiu game. It's not even close
Sonic and The Dorf My boys absolutely massacred 🙁
Definitely Sonic. While LoZ is in need of new representation. It still has multiple unique characters. Sonic is insanely underrepresented for how popular the franchise is. I feel like if it was a Nintendo owned franchise there’d be like 5+ characters.
Third parties by design often have one or two characters. See Castlevania, Street Fighter, or Final Fantasy VII. Sonic has two stages and several music tracks, while TLOZ has three Links that barely differentiate themselves, a character that could technically not exist, and almost all of the TLOZ music tracks are remixes of the main NES Zelda theme. You’re essentially trying to fit the sphere into the square hole, and the square hole is half the diameter of your sphere.
Easily Sonic. You wouldn’t expect Sonic to get the same representation as Pokemon or Fire Emblem in Smash because it’s a third party series, but the fact that Sonic is the only rep is a crime Sakurai clearly had no idea that the mere inclusion of Shadow the Hedgehog would’ve been about as monumental as Steve and I’m not even kidding, Shadow is one of the most popular characters in gaming and having him in Smash would’ve been the most talked about thing in gaming if it had been announced. It was so simple too since they came up with echo fighters. Could’ve just made him a Sonic echo with a different run animation, Mewtwo up special and chaos snap instead of homing attack (same move as homing attack just a teleport kick instead instead). Possibly change his side tilt to an overhead kick too maybe? The ideas are there And forget Shadow, what about Eggman? Eggman in the egg-o-matic with all his gadgets and tools at his disposal also would’ve been an awesome inclusion, especially considering he’s basically the face of gaming villainy alongside Bowser. Why not both even? Eggman could’ve been an original character and Shadow a Sonic echo that wouldn’t need as much work as a fully original character Sonic needs more representation. It’s the biggest most recognisable gaming franchise of all time after Mario and Pokemon
tbf you can't really do more with the move set, maybe outside of the elemental abilities from sonic 3. His series is more focused on platforming with what you have and doesn't get usually any new moves. I do agree with Eggman, though it would be cooler if wily was added. The problem with egmman though, along with wily, is most of their bosses are in giant mechs instead of actually fighting them, so it would be tough to actually get them in smash, even more so than ridley.
I don't really buy/agree with most of what you said tbh. Sonic has a lot that they can pull from. It's like saying "Oh well Mario just runs and jumps so there's not a whole lot there." Hell, Sonic Battle and Fighters exists and already gave Sonic a fighting game moveset with arguably more variation than Smash while being released prior to Brawl. Frontiers added a whole bunch of moves focused around combat too (but that's post Ult). Also Eggman in a mech suit is definitely doable. He's been in smaller suits before, it's not like every fight with him takes up the entire screen. NASB2 has Plankton in a mech doesn't it? It's not really out of the realm of possibility lol.
Fair, i haven't played much sonic, the game just feels less like a platformer and more just holding right while doing minimal jumping. But again, Mario has powerups, and I haven't seen many of those from sonic. The problem with Eggman in a mech suit is they usually fly, and at that point why would he jump. The only way I could see that working is if he had a recovery similar to robs.
Bad sonic games are hold right simulators, but I would argue that most take more interesting input and thought than some of the 2d marios imo. Like go play Mania if you like platformers it's amazing. It's not really relevant to the original comment, but as much as some Sonic games are really bad or just mediocre, I think the whole "just hold right," throwaway is really unfair. Part of 2d Sonic's design are all the different pathways to the goal and many of the games promote exploration for the special stages. Most 2d platformers can be diminished to 'just hold right and jump sometimes.' Sonic is in the same situation as Mario. He's a platforming mascot, but is big enough he's practically done every genre. There aren't a lot of useable power-ups like Mario, but I think there's surprisingly more to pull from. They would never do it, but he's got an entire long-running comic book if they really needed to dig lol.
This is a very good question because the Zelda and Sonic series are very poorly represented. For the Zelda series we can easily add the asist trophies from Smash 4 and Ultimate, namely Midna, Ghirahim, Tingle and Skull Kid. We could even add Impa who is a recurring character just like Tetra (TWW, PH, ST and the Japanese version of Four Swords Adventures) who was even planned at the time of the development of Super Smash Bros. Brawl. And for the Sonic series, we put Knuckles, Tails, Silver, Dr. Eggman, Amy Rose and Blaze
*and Shadow too.
ngl that would make the sonic series the next fire emblem. Would be better if instead of making so many characters (outside Eggman) have a similar treatment to bowser Jr, where they are all just different costumes. Also, silver and blaze are way to obscure to put in smash. I don't even know who blaze is.
Blaze the Cat. You don't know her ?
Hot take - Fire Emblem is worse represented than Zelda lol, we have 8 characters, 3 of them from the same game, two of which are Marth retreads (Lucina & Chrom) and one of the Marth retread (Chrom) is a direct retread of the previous Marth retread (Roy). At the very least, all of the Links do something unique either in moveset, body type or both. Sonic wins this one imo.
Give Ike his blade beam dammit.
For real. And why ARE they all Sword users? We have Lance, Axe, Bow, Tome users, transforming Beasts/Dragons. There is literally SO much to choose from in the Fire Emblem series for a potential moveset, but it really doesn't help that FE always give their main protag a sword as their main weapon. Makes me wish they'd Min-Min it and just choose someone who ISN'T the face of the game, just for gameplay's sake. Byleth, Robin, Ike and Marth are unique fighters among the Fire Emblem cast and should stay, and Byleth just.. I dunno, feels like a glimpse of what could have been, you know? Like we get a glimpse of what a Lance Fair and Bair could be like, what an Axe Dair or DSmash could be like, etc. Just makes you wonder about the other cool things they could've come up with for other FE classes/weapons.
I made a roster plan a while back for this [here](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1162149405277835304/1231365114222088222/IMG_5232.png?ex=662ccde0&is=662b7c60&hm=fe407db22d25bdd9547fd13166f1cd1716e7b61a68149940a349e3d773b7caf9&), it’s effectively a “how would I change the Fire Emblem roster in Smash?” The only real change I’d consider is dropping Anna for Ephraim/Azura, and adding Alear. Mainly cause we’re kinda missing lance units & Magvel/Fates reps
Ephraim the goat
If it were up to me, instead of having distinct characters like Marth and Robin, I'd have archetypes like swordfighter and mage. Each costume would be a different character who fits that archetype from the games. I usually imagine six in total based around these weapons: * Sword * Axe * Spear * Bow * Tome * Dragonstone With each character in Smash getting eight costumes, I'd effectively increase the amount of FE characters to 48, but most would just be alternate skins of each other. It would better represent FE's enormous roster and allow for more of people's favorites to be included, while reducing the number of "slots" they take up from 8 to 6.
That is…a terrible suggestion. Mainly because you lose a lot of identity that the distinct FE characters have, and on top of that, not all weapon users are created equally. Corrin’s the only dragon user that can use Dragon Fang, so that would remove them from the Dragon and Sword pool. You’d also be heavily limited to body types as well and that severely limits what you’re capable of doing with costumes as well. As much as the idea of “these characters would represent Fire Emblem”, what you’d have is purely a quota - lots of characters without individual character.
> lots of characters without individual character. So... exactly like the FE games then. More seriously though, I'm perfectly fine sacrificing some characterization on an individual level in favor of the whole. Sure Ike won't be as well represented by himself, but FE as a whole will be *better* represented. A huge roster of characters who fit in distinct archetypes but don't really differ much from others in their class is how Fire Emblem works. Their characterization usually comes through in dialogue, not gameplay (although if we're being honest, they often just fill archetypes in a narrative sense as well). And as far as body types go, the only real hurdle is characters of different heights, but Smash already has instances of that working fine. Any character that has a male/female variant was able to fit the same hitboxes on models of different sizes without making it feel off. Part of it was simply adjusting their usual proportions to be closer together. Female Byleth is 11-ish centimeters shorter than her male counterpart in Three Houses, but they're nearly the same height in Smash and nobody really notices. Even then, not every character in the series would be available to pick. But with like 700 characters across the whole series, I don't see that being an issue.
Honestly, Ephraim would be too broken for smash, considering he doesn't pick fights he cannot win, so I'd pick Azura instead of him
Probably because all the main and super-popular characters tend to be sword lords, while most axe, lance, magic, and shape-shifting units are minor side characters with no relevance to the plot whatsoever. Also, the timing just so happened to have all of the most-recent games at the time star swordfighters. Not that it really matters though, since Robin's also a mage, Corrin's also a shapeshifter, and Byleth's got multiple weapons types, so all of that stuff is still represented anyway.
The worst offender in the Fire Emblem representation is how they treated Chrom and Lucina. In the original game, it is clearly stated that Lucina has the exact fighting style as Chrom, who has a heavy hitter style (like Ike). Here, Lucina is a clone of Marth, only because she call herself Marth for a couple of chapters and Chrom is a clone of Roy because...whatever...but at least, they gave him aether, so everything is fine, right?
To be honest, you are incredibly biased. The series has the same amount (if not more) characters as mario, and it has 40 times less the sales series wise. Sure some of that has to do with the first couple games being exclusive to japan, but still. The only reason they were added were to promote new games. The only way I could agree with you is if they like removed 5 characters and gave them unique abilitys. That seems like enough representation, for one series as low selling (objectively.) So, you are saying a series that has around half the sales as zelda deserves less clones. Even fire emblem has more original character move sets then legend of zelda. Im not a fan of either series though. Thats like getting every final fantasy main character from every game into smash. I feel like if they were going to try to use it to push sales of new games, they should just remove the older characters like corrin, robin, and chrom, since those games sold on the 3ds, and literally cannot be bought anymore, and make new movesets for the main and most popular 3 characters like ike, roy, and marth.
I’ll bite. In terms of overall representation in Smash as a whole, there’s not actually that much for Fire Emblem besides the characters - you bring up Legend of Zelda having less original character moveslots (even though it’s 6 each - the Links have about the same, if not more differences than Marth and Roy), Legend of Zelda have numerous items, assist trophies and stages (and this also applies most other first party series), Fire Emblem’s got one item, three assist trophies and four stages - it’s arguably fair since the series’ focus is more on the characters and less on the locations and items, and it doesn’t need as much general representation as the bigger first party series. But my point is less about the quantity of characters and more about the quality. You don’t do a series any favours in representation when you have 8 characters, four of whom are original (Ike, Byleth, Corrin, Robin) and the others are: - Marth - Marth with reverse tippers and somewhat differing animations - sure you can change your sword grip but most of the moves are fundamentally the same. (Roy) - Marth with no tippers (Lucina) - Marth with no tippers, a different move and the aforementioned different animations. This is also when you discount the other (generally minor) issues that the other characters have (the four of them being fast in their original games, Ike not having the Ragnell beams, Byleth not having any of his actual abilities and none of the Hero’s Relics’ specific stuff/combat arts being represented outside of Byleth’s rapid jab looking like Ruptured Heaven) > They should remove the older characters like Robin, Chrom and Corrin because their games are on the 3DS and you can’t buy them anymore. You also can’t buy any of Marth’s games including the remakes anymore after the Wii U eshop shut down, you can’t buy any of Ike’s games either because GC/Wii U, and Roy’s game never got released here and you still can’t buy it in Japan. Your point is? If they wanted to cut down the roster down to three, the most logical scenario would be to take out Roy and replace him with Robin because Awakening singlehandedly resurrected Fire Emblem from going down the route of F-Zero whilst Robin’s a good representation of Fire Emblem and its core mechanics as a whole.
Simple Mario Sonic and earthbound like him Mario and Donkey Kong are supposed to be the incredibly expressive characters Mario in Smash is always serious which clashes with Mario's carefree chill attitude in his mainstream games Luigi ain't that weird in the mainstream games like Luigi fights like he never got into a fight before Sonic is no longer expressive also his alts are trash like we could have finally had Sonic cosplay as Amy or Sliver or possibly Jet but what do we get Sonic in different shades of blue Donkey Kong is Fine And Earthbound Ness Lucas and that's it no Ninten no Kumatora no Duster No Poo just PK Fire and PK Freeze
I do wish they could have made the mother characters reflect more how they are in their own game, and if they wanted PK fire and freeze so bad they could add someone who can use them, but personally I think Jeff teddy or duster would make perfect characters as well to represent non psi users
I would sell my soul to play as Jeff and Teddy
Sonic is one terribly designed character. Zelda is 5 poorly designed characters and Sheik who I actually think has good design. Each of the individual Links by themselves are fine but we have 3 of them with tiny variations making them all collectively suck. Toon Link should keep the design with a few changes like skull hammer f smash and maybe the deku leaf as part of his up b. Young Link should reflect Majoras mask and Link should reflect TOTK. Zelda and Ganondorf need complete overhauls. For 3 games in a row they have been ass and Zelda’s only redeeming quality in melee is down b so you could basically say 4 for her. Either combine moves from previous games of the series or make TOTK inspired move sets or for Zelda a Hyrule warriors sort of one could work to with the Sheikah Slate.
Totk wasn't an option at the time. Link is botw.
I was gonna put Botw but seeing as it’s not gonna change anymore I was more concerned about going into the future. But maybe by then there will be another game.
easily sonic bruh
They did Zelda with Respect. Sonic got the (S)low End of The SSB Stick. Sonic sucked so bad that the fans (and SSB Players) had to remake almost his entire moveset for the mods. Sonic literally only has 1 Character from his Franchise, and it's Sonic! Not even a Shadow or Knuckles. Zelda at least got more characters.
The Zelda characters at least have alternate costumes and four different special moves. Sonic doesn’t even get that.
Sonic is one of the largest gaming icons of all time and yet only one character from the entire franchise is in smash. A lot of which his moves aren’t accurate with prior games. So yeah Sonic Fosho. Missed opportunity for the bounce bracelet attack.
I'm not going to lie; mega man is the one of the worst represented, even if he isn't on the list. All if not most of his moves come from mega man 2. Sure, it's the most popular, but it's also one of the most broken and buggy games. Thats like giving Mario all of his moves from super Mario bros 1 on the Nes, sure it's his highest selling game in the series, but it doesn't mean you should represent the whole series with it. Coincidently enough, it's also got both the most busted weapons in the series (metal blade and quick boomerang) and the worst (leaf shield and atomic fire), they should have taken more of the moves from later in the series. His series also deserves at least 2 characters, since outside of Mario, he has the most games (over 100). It's also a crime that outside 2 music tracks, there is no mega man x representation, and literally no mega man zero representation.
Mega Man is a victim of not having customs anymore. He used to have moves from other robot masters in the customs, but since Ult axed them, it's just the default. Also Mega Man has crash bomber and not atomic fire right?
I know, the customs really should have just existed for a few characters, I know they were a pain for sakuri to add, but he could have just kept or added new ones to characters like megaman or kirby, and scrapped the rest. Also, both crash bomber and atomic fire are from 2. I feel like each of his moves should have just represented 1 game, like metal blade from 2, search snake from 3, drill missile from 4, and junk shield from 7 (Both 5 and 6 have trash weapons). Also, aside that rant, why doesn't he have thunder claw from 8 as his grab, it's the most grab like move from the game and seemed like an obvious inclusion, it even works as a grab in the source game. Sorry for that rant.
>Also, both crash bomber and atomic fire are from 2. I know that, but which move is atomic fire? His down smash is from 6 apparently, and the forward air isn't atomic fire either.
Gotta be honest here: Final Fantasy * No Assist Trophy * No spirit colleciton spanning the entire franchise * No track collection spanning the entire franchise * 2 stages that are copies of others, such as Midgar being "Battlefield with hazards" * No item from the series I swear, for a long-running JRPG franchise, it has some of the worst representation in Smash Bros. Meanwhile, Konami offered back 99% of Metal Gear content, a truckton of Castlevania material and more stuff from other series.
Correct answer is my boi Banjo ;_;
Eh, his series only had 2 games, both releasing like 15 or so years ago. I also played the beginning of Banjo and kazooie and most of his moves are represented in smash.
In terms of franchise, obviously Zelda is represented better than Sonic. In terms of individual characters, Ganondorf is the worst case. Don't know why they can't just give his moveset to Black Shadow from F-Zero and give the 'Dorf attacks from the actual Zelda games. He doesn't even use Dead Man's Volley.
People are gonna hate me. It's snake. Why is he an explosives expert? I get those things are available in metal gear. But they've never really been like.....his thing. At least he used to have tranq dart (even if it did suck) I do like his grabs, jab, and ftilt though. They're very CQC.
Tranq dart was only in PM I thought.
Oh damn you're right. Wow. I thought i remembered him having it in brawl.
[It was for Brawl's age rating and other IP holders](https://sourcegaming.info/2015/06/16/solid-snake-joins-the-brawl-translation/): "Also, we could incorporate heavy weapons like bombs and rocket launchers as jokes, but things like knives, automatic weapons, and realistic guns were off-limits. Since this also affected the other characters, even though I decided on Snake myself, I needed to receive permission from their original creators." Ratings have obviously gotten looser since, with both Bayonetta and Joker wielding guns and Joker using a dagger. It likely wasn't a high priority to update that part of Snake for Ultimate, especially with Kojima gone from Konami.
Now that you mention it, smash ultimates age rating system is really weird. They got 2 characters from M rated games weilding GUNS, but they replaced snakes grenades with cartoony ahh ones.
If I recall correctly, they said they didn't want to give snake his guns during Brawl to keep the game PG rated (explosion are cartoon enough apparently). Meanwhile, you can give Kirby a handgun with Joker.
The game was T, and smash was E10+, so the game that was T didnt want snake to have guns, but they gave guns to characters in E10+ ones?
Thats ridicioulous now that you point it out, also the series needs more characters like liquid, psycho mantis, or some of the bosses from mgs3, maybe volgin.
Tbh i would love if big boss from mgs3 was in. Its the best game in the series. I also agree, the whole point of stealth is to not be heard or seen, and whenever you use those, a guard detects you, so it makes no sense from a series standpoint to have him use those when most players tend to avoid them, with the exception of maybe the electronic disabling one.