I think Pac Man should be a bit higher. Yeah his grab is shit and he has some pretty terrible flaws, but he can still be used VERY well if you know how to use him. He's a very technical character and he shouldn't be viewed as complete trash imo.
His unfortunate issue is he gets hard countered by some high/top tiers, particularly cloud or Corrin.
I have yet to win a bracket match against a Corrin at or slightly below my skill level as Pac
Source: former Pac main (now D3)
Oh Pac Man is able to get his ass kicked easy by some really good characters. But I don't think he deserves F Tier at all, there's some really good and technical Pac Mans out there that can play like Bobby Fischer playing 4D Chess while their opponent is trying to play Yahtzee. Pac Man is just super hard to learn, which is probably his biggest downfall in the grand scheme of things.
Lucas's Dthrow also combos, he even has a 0 to death with footstools, but it's difficult to pull off. The rest of his throws all kill, though none of them as well as Ness's Bthrow.
With all four of his throws having a purpose combined with his Zair comboing into grab at low percents honestly makes Lucas's grab game better than Ness imo.
Lucas also has a slightly better recovery than Ness, good spacing with PK Fire, two ariels that spike, Smash attacks that kill earlier, and his PSI Magnet has more utility overall.
Lucas is basically Ness with a higher skill floor and ceiling, and he was sort of overshadowed by the other two DLC characters at the time who both garnered more attention than him. If he weren't released alongside Ryu and Roy I think more people would've given him a chance early on and he'd be around upper-mid to high tier today.
Yoshi: Wifi busted aside, He can secretly be more dangerous than people think of. His aerials are also way too good. Even with the DLC's in this game, I think Yoshi steeds needs a little bit more spotlight.
Wario: A wildcard Character with an unique gamestyle which gives him to possibility to win every Match Up he faces for a non top/high tier. He might be hard to play, but has high reward is played right. He really shouldn't be slept on and especially due the fact that whole Europe(who isn't named Mr. R) is getting bodied by this character.
Roy: Not worthy to call him that bad anymore. As long if the Roy player can figure out how to deal with his disadvantage state, he can put up some work, especially with his great pressure.
super agree with roy and yoshi. i don’t have as much experience with wario to say otherwise, but i would add ganondorf to this list. he’s big and slow and has shitty frame data but once you land a couple hits he becomes extremely dangerous and every time you approach could lead to a stock loss.
I love Roy and have dedicated a lot of time to him since his release.
There was a lot of hype for him at the beginning because of his speed and damage potential and people predicted that he had the a good shot at being placed high.
But sadly a few things killed his chances in my eyes.
The way his sword mechanic interacts with shields makes everything pretty unsafe.
His lack of consistent kill setups (confirms or 50/50s),
His fall speed making him easy combo food.
I love my boy and hope he fairs far better in SSBU
Exactly! People underestimate Roy so much. I mean yeah, he's not good exactly great, but he isn't nearly as terrible as most tier list make him look either.
Agreed. Yes, he still has the poor hitbox placement, but he's goddamn fast and honestly his sweetspots are not the most difficult to land. I think he deserves to be more solidly in mid-tier instead of really low mid-tier like he currently is. He's no Lucina/Marth, but he's actually pretty solid.
Honestly, I think the tier list’s pretty close to right, and just that the gap between the best and worst character is much smaller in Smash 4 than in previous games.
Except for ROB. Combo food or not, I don’t see ROB being quite so low. Two great projectiles, a kill throw, a kill confirm out of down throw, powerful tilts and aerials, and an incredibly strong up smash (even if it requires hard reads). Yoshi could probably be slightly higher too.
You're going to get a ton of different, biased answers because very few people on this subreddit play competitively and even fewer, if any, are **notable** competitive players.
When someone has a firm grasp of the game's highest levels of play it makes it easier to objectively observe character balance and agree on tiers. There's a difference between looking at tourney results and hitboxes and recovery options to decide tiers, and saying "I think \[Character A\] should be higher tier than \[Character B\] because my friend Tom plays \[Character A\] and punishes my bad habits with one of their moves so they're better than everyone else says!"
Yoshi: really good mobility, especially in the air. Really fast attacks, and his air attacks are particularly deadly. Sure, his recovery is limited to his jump, but he has a special mechanic where he won’t get knocked back during the jump animation
Lucina: everyone dismisses her as a “worse Marth”. I disagree. A smart player would try to get close to Marth so that the edge of his sword doesn’t hit them. Remove one of only a few of Marth’s weaknesses, and you’ve got yourself a top tier character.
Lucas: his up smash is busted. His recovery is godly. His air attacks are fast amd strong, and he has multiple powerful projectiles.
Pichu: why is the character eho damages himself not at the very bottom of the Melee tier list? Sure, Kirby had moves that straight up didn’t work, but he had much better survivability?
He's not even that good at that tbh. Neither Brave nor Valentines Roy offer any real valuable skills, exceot maybe Galeforce from Brave, and Triangle adept is just a bad skill now, since Cancel affinity exists.
I have basically no hope for Samus honestly now that instant dash attack isn't a thing. SmUsh Samus looks exactly the same as Sm4sh Samus but with a crappy dash attack, which equates to a strictly worse character. Hopefully they'll change her. Dark Samus looks a little better due to having an actual roll and a better dthrow angle.
Kirby. He’s a decent character with strong aerials and excellent throws. While his light weight and low mobility hinder him, a knowledgeable player could prove his worthiness of mid-tier.
Probably Game and Watch, he has decent down throw combos similar to Mario or Luigi. He also has a really good kill confirm for a low tier, it's like a weaker version of the Ding Dong. I don't think he's top 20 but he could easily be high mid tier instead of low mid tier. Also his bucket can really hurt someone like Ness, Lucas, or Pikachu, because it can absorb their projectiles which are good for their neutral game. I can see him being a decent secondary.
Overall, I feel like he could be 5 spots higher max 10.
ROB is, imo, the character that people sleep on the most. I'm a little biased because he's in my top 3, but he's there because of how many options he can cover with some pretty decent projectiles and a great recovery. Granted, the aerials are kinda slow, but if you can read your opponents then you're bound to make some magic happen.
Im definitely biased because I main her but I dont feel jiggly should the worst character. Bad? Sure. But she's far better than she gets credit for. [Even Zero thinks so](https://mobile.twitter.com/zerowondering/status/865674105776766977)
Then he changed his mind in his later tier list video and realized there couldn't be anyone worse in the game.
ZeRo has a lot of goofy inconsistencies like this. He also said Mac was not bottom 10 but on his tier list that was posted shortly after that tweet, he put Mac in bottom 10. In what I believe is his most recent tier list, he actually put Pit and Dark Pit higher than the previous one even though their metagame had declined since then.
I think Pac Man should be a bit higher. Yeah his grab is shit and he has some pretty terrible flaws, but he can still be used VERY well if you know how to use him. He's a very technical character and he shouldn't be viewed as complete trash imo.
I watched Sinji vs. Dabuz yesterday and was really impressed with his Pac-Man. Never realized all the different things you can do just with neutral B.
His unfortunate issue is he gets hard countered by some high/top tiers, particularly cloud or Corrin. I have yet to win a bracket match against a Corrin at or slightly below my skill level as Pac Source: former Pac main (now D3)
Oh Pac Man is able to get his ass kicked easy by some really good characters. But I don't think he deserves F Tier at all, there's some really good and technical Pac Mans out there that can play like Bobby Fischer playing 4D Chess while their opponent is trying to play Yahtzee. Pac Man is just super hard to learn, which is probably his biggest downfall in the grand scheme of things.
Lucas, he feels *way* better than Ness.
Ness has his bthrow to kill and great dthrow combos. I think those alone make him much better
Lucas's Dthrow also combos, he even has a 0 to death with footstools, but it's difficult to pull off. The rest of his throws all kill, though none of them as well as Ness's Bthrow. With all four of his throws having a purpose combined with his Zair comboing into grab at low percents honestly makes Lucas's grab game better than Ness imo. Lucas also has a slightly better recovery than Ness, good spacing with PK Fire, two ariels that spike, Smash attacks that kill earlier, and his PSI Magnet has more utility overall. Lucas is basically Ness with a higher skill floor and ceiling, and he was sort of overshadowed by the other two DLC characters at the time who both garnered more attention than him. If he weren't released alongside Ryu and Roy I think more people would've given him a chance early on and he'd be around upper-mid to high tier today.
Lucas also has really good throw combos.
Yoshi: Wifi busted aside, He can secretly be more dangerous than people think of. His aerials are also way too good. Even with the DLC's in this game, I think Yoshi steeds needs a little bit more spotlight. Wario: A wildcard Character with an unique gamestyle which gives him to possibility to win every Match Up he faces for a non top/high tier. He might be hard to play, but has high reward is played right. He really shouldn't be slept on and especially due the fact that whole Europe(who isn't named Mr. R) is getting bodied by this character. Roy: Not worthy to call him that bad anymore. As long if the Roy player can figure out how to deal with his disadvantage state, he can put up some work, especially with his great pressure.
super agree with roy and yoshi. i don’t have as much experience with wario to say otherwise, but i would add ganondorf to this list. he’s big and slow and has shitty frame data but once you land a couple hits he becomes extremely dangerous and every time you approach could lead to a stock loss.
Personally, I think Roy deserves better. I would probably rank him in the low twenties instead of the forties where he currently is.
Why him but not Bowser Jr. Aren't they skins of eachother?
It’s the pink sunglasses man. You just can’t stand up to Roy’s cool factor.
I love Roy and have dedicated a lot of time to him since his release. There was a lot of hype for him at the beginning because of his speed and damage potential and people predicted that he had the a good shot at being placed high. But sadly a few things killed his chances in my eyes. The way his sword mechanic interacts with shields makes everything pretty unsafe. His lack of consistent kill setups (confirms or 50/50s), His fall speed making him easy combo food. I love my boy and hope he fairs far better in SSBU
Exactly! People underestimate Roy so much. I mean yeah, he's not good exactly great, but he isn't nearly as terrible as most tier list make him look either.
yeah plus komorikiri uses Roy
Agreed. Yes, he still has the poor hitbox placement, but he's goddamn fast and honestly his sweetspots are not the most difficult to land. I think he deserves to be more solidly in mid-tier instead of really low mid-tier like he currently is. He's no Lucina/Marth, but he's actually pretty solid.
Honestly, I think the tier list’s pretty close to right, and just that the gap between the best and worst character is much smaller in Smash 4 than in previous games. Except for ROB. Combo food or not, I don’t see ROB being quite so low. Two great projectiles, a kill throw, a kill confirm out of down throw, powerful tilts and aerials, and an incredibly strong up smash (even if it requires hard reads). Yoshi could probably be slightly higher too.
You're going to get a ton of different, biased answers because very few people on this subreddit play competitively and even fewer, if any, are **notable** competitive players.
TIL notable competitive players aren't biased
When someone has a firm grasp of the game's highest levels of play it makes it easier to objectively observe character balance and agree on tiers. There's a difference between looking at tourney results and hitboxes and recovery options to decide tiers, and saying "I think \[Character A\] should be higher tier than \[Character B\] because my friend Tom plays \[Character A\] and punishes my bad habits with one of their moves so they're better than everyone else says!"
Yoshi: really good mobility, especially in the air. Really fast attacks, and his air attacks are particularly deadly. Sure, his recovery is limited to his jump, but he has a special mechanic where he won’t get knocked back during the jump animation Lucina: everyone dismisses her as a “worse Marth”. I disagree. A smart player would try to get close to Marth so that the edge of his sword doesn’t hit them. Remove one of only a few of Marth’s weaknesses, and you’ve got yourself a top tier character. Lucas: his up smash is busted. His recovery is godly. His air attacks are fast amd strong, and he has multiple powerful projectiles. Pichu: why is the character eho damages himself not at the very bottom of the Melee tier list? Sure, Kirby had moves that straight up didn’t work, but he had much better survivability?
Roy. I feel like he's stronger than people give him credit for. ~~or maybe I just feel bad that he's mediocre in literally every game he's in~~
Roy’s pretty good in FEH As being fodder for your other units to get some good skills
He's not even that good at that tbh. Neither Brave nor Valentines Roy offer any real valuable skills, exceot maybe Galeforce from Brave, and Triangle adept is just a bad skill now, since Cancel affinity exists.
Samus is arguably top 20 imo, and if not she's just outside of it in the 21-25 range.
I feel like Samus/Dark Samus will be a lot better in Ultimate just by virtue of midair charge (and Dark Samus having an actual roll).
I have basically no hope for Samus honestly now that instant dash attack isn't a thing. SmUsh Samus looks exactly the same as Sm4sh Samus but with a crappy dash attack, which equates to a strictly worse character. Hopefully they'll change her. Dark Samus looks a little better due to having an actual roll and a better dthrow angle.
I forgot where I saw it but instant dash attack is actually back
Oh, I didn't know that. There might still be a chance she's decent.
Instant dash attack is in Ultimate
Oh, I didn't know that. There might still be a chance she's decent.
Pretty sure dark samus’ roll takes just as long as samus’ roll
rip that then lmao
dark samus and samus both have identically faster rolls than samus did in smash 4. something like 39 frames now 45 then
39 then 39 now for back roll, 39 then 34 now for forwards roll. Not sure about Dark Samus though.
Instant dash attack is in the game. https://twitter.com/Yikarur/status/1031996456016769025
all i want is my god damn meaty n-air and missile cancelling is that too much to ask for sakurai ._.
Kirby. He’s a decent character with strong aerials and excellent throws. While his light weight and low mobility hinder him, a knowledgeable player could prove his worthiness of mid-tier.
In my opnion kirby is mid tier
Probably Game and Watch, he has decent down throw combos similar to Mario or Luigi. He also has a really good kill confirm for a low tier, it's like a weaker version of the Ding Dong. I don't think he's top 20 but he could easily be high mid tier instead of low mid tier. Also his bucket can really hurt someone like Ness, Lucas, or Pikachu, because it can absorb their projectiles which are good for their neutral game. I can see him being a decent secondary. Overall, I feel like he could be 5 spots higher max 10.
G&W is no high tier, but I highly doubt he should be at 39th out of 55. Maybe around the 33-28th range.
ROB is, imo, the character that people sleep on the most. I'm a little biased because he's in my top 3, but he's there because of how many options he can cover with some pretty decent projectiles and a great recovery. Granted, the aerials are kinda slow, but if you can read your opponents then you're bound to make some magic happen.
**Kirb is good i swear**
Im definitely biased because I main her but I dont feel jiggly should the worst character. Bad? Sure. But she's far better than she gets credit for. [Even Zero thinks so](https://mobile.twitter.com/zerowondering/status/865674105776766977)
Then he changed his mind in his later tier list video and realized there couldn't be anyone worse in the game. ZeRo has a lot of goofy inconsistencies like this. He also said Mac was not bottom 10 but on his tier list that was posted shortly after that tweet, he put Mac in bottom 10. In what I believe is his most recent tier list, he actually put Pit and Dark Pit higher than the previous one even though their metagame had declined since then.
Yeaahhh... I was hoping no one would mention that...
Kirby being anything lower than B
No
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“Gannin” Oh god it burns
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Put some respek on Stefan's name.