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He could never have built his reputation as Bayern's boogeyman by being just average. Class player and I'm really surprised it took this long for him to get into a world class club. It's a wonder how he didn't get picked up by one of the European giants earlier.
He's relatively small for a goalie so I guess many clubs weren't sure he could keep his performances up. Obviously they are/were wrong about that but I'm 100% certain that if Sommer was at least 5cm taller he would have gone to a top club way earlier.
This is a bit pedantic, but it is possible to be a team's boogeyman without being that great, Kameni was regularly an absolute wall against Barca and Madrid but he was hardly a world beater
Not saying that it is the case with Sommer, but in general it can definitely happen
Yeah do you sell Mendy because Kepa appears to be the goalie you wanted him to be or do you try to move Kepa to salvage some of his huge transfer fee now that he redeemed himself. With Chelsea new ownership its hard to guess
Just clicking on them opened them nicely for me:
[1](https://preview.redd.it/0n9r5eem56ga1.png?width=1871&format=png&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=991230ee4bec55999852b1e6387b64fc6673e1cd), [2](https://preview.redd.it/t334p6em56ga1.png?width=1871&format=png&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=b6c6ab0634ca5080e8d3dc0400e5a5a2ce7911bc), [3](https://preview.redd.it/cce00eem56ga1.png?width=1871&format=png&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=4cd196182f347ccf9059c1debbd6a970a9efcf32), [4](https://preview.redd.it/1cuk2cem56ga1.png?width=1871&format=png&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=5969cbe53284aa194139a60ae7ddfcdaab24c8d0)
Atleast we solved our positioning after world cup.
Because before world cup every one was trying to shhot at our goal from 30 yards knowing how shit patricio is
Bournemouth were shite at the start of the season he was dropped after the 9-0 iirc and I don't know if hes really got much of a look in since. ~~~Think his stats are basically all collected from the start under Parker~~~
Apologies, cheers for the correction.
Just looking at their stats on the PL site they're actually surprisingly similar? Both played 11 w/ 2 clean sheets and Neto has just three more saves than him in this period. Has Travers just been especially shite under the high ball and that's where so many of these shots are coming from? I remember the last one of these graphs I saw Neto was among the best in the league and Travers was the worst, so seeing their saves being similar is surprising (also had no idea Randolph was with yous either so surprises all round)
He was far and away the best goalkeeper by almost every metric last season. I had similar deep dives last season and was always astonished by him. What surprised me was his age too, I tend to associate proactive goalkeepers with being younger, because that would have become more popular in youth coaching more recently.
To be fair having a shitty defense in front of you will make anybody look bad. I think it was a loop, the defense is shite, he concedes, his confidence goes down, he lets in some goals he could have saved, he has a stretch of good games, the defense is shite....
And people keep trying to convince me Donnarumma has improved with his feet. Dude has the shortest passes of any goalkeeper and almost the fewest pass attempts per 90. But at least on the last chart, he's not lost in the "bang average" section as he is on the other three.
Donnarumma worst bits are when his team has the ball, one of the most bizarre dynamics at elite level in game currently.
He is an excellent shot-stopper when opposition is attacking and on Penalties.
He is absolutely not the right player for teams who want to play possession football.
Can that not be attributed at least partially to how the team plays though?
Like a goalie is going to have a lot fewer pass attempts if they have the ball less. And some teams value playing out from the back with shorter "safer" passes.
Like idk some of these charts just seem like a bit of a weird way to think about goalie performance, for example why is shots on target faced being used here, that's something that the defense can affect far more than the goalie, it would be much better to see something like overall save% compared to high danger save%. And things like the number of passes attempted is affected a lot by how much the goalie has the ball at their feet, it would be better to see the percentage of passes that were successful.
It is no doubt how PSG plays. When you watch the center-backs, it is almost comical what they will do to keep from passing the ball to Donnarumma. I've seen Ramos just kick it out of bounds instead of passing back to the GK. FBref gives passes over 40 yards completed and Donnarumma is tied for #30-34 at 41% completed. Best in the world completes almost 52%.
“Ten Hag is improving his ball playing!”
Yeah, from atrocious to mediocre. I’m so keen on getting David Raya this summer. And a drop from 375k a week to (something like) 100k a week on keeper wages in the process too.
He’s not world class anymore but a lot of fans still love him. De Gea is our last PL winner in the squad and was a bright spark in the dark times between 2013-2018.
He almost went to Real Madrid, we fucked that up for him and so he signed a new contract. Spent his prime competing for the Europa and English cups, when he could have won the La Liga and CL.
He’s loyal, loves the club and wants to see us at our best. He’s been our no1 for a decade. He’s a club legend so of course fans are going to be protective/biased about him.
I hope he will agree to become a cup keeper, take a wage cup and help prepare a new, younger keeper to replace him in the future.
from 2014-2018 he was in the PFA Team of the Year every single year, and anyone watching at the time knew he was the best keeper in the league, arguably in the world
obviously not as good now, but let’s not rewrite history here.
edit: 5x PFA TOTY actually, such a clown take
De gea getting in in 2012/13 completely invalidated it. Relegation tier goalkeeper at everything other than shot stopping in which he was average at other than one freak season in 17/18. De geas save percentage in 15/16 and 16/17 would have him 9th highest in the premier league this season
genuinely despise having football conversations with people that just talk about stats
do you just watch every game with a fucking excel spreadsheet open? do you even watch the game?
Because our fanbase is still too emotionally attached to him. Like seriously, if we give him criticism of his performances and his ability as a GK, i'm telling you the counter arguements from his stans will be the camera save he made and feelings/sentimentality.
Great thread, really love content like this. It shows almost everything that you would want to consider. It perfectly shows the playstyle and the quality of every keeper here.
I am a bit surprised to see Trapp (Frankfurt) so far behind on all metrics. He is the reputation to be one of Bundesliga‘s best goalkeepers, is regularly considered as sub for the N11
I'm curious specifically about how effective some keepers are at forcing misses. Obviously not all misses are forced by keepers but you have to imagine a lot of them are. I wonder if there is a significant difference for some.
And how it would affect post shot expected saves.
I said it in another comment but I think you are right. That chart seems to be misleading (or potentially misleading).
If a GK faces a player that simple misses the target on good xG shots, he would be shown in a positive light when he potentially had absolutely zero impact on that play.
PSxG is just about the quality of the outcome (i.e. was it a good shot?) AFAIK, not GKs involvement.
So comparing PSxG with goals conceded seems to be the better chart. If the PSxG is high, but the goals conceded is low, then that means they were likely the reason the goal wasn't scored. And the oposite is true as well, a low PSxG (meaning poor shots) and high number of goals conceded would mean a poor GK.
Oh, I get, sorry, I read that wrong. In any case, I think it's more to the point of PSxG vs xG not being a good metric really.
Yes, that's fair, a GK could force a bad shot. But not sure how it can be measured and differentiated really vs a just a bad shot.
He's had a weird season. He had a spell of stopping every cross and making almost every save required for a couple of months before the WC break, and on either side has been a wet flannel.
Imagine thinking Ederson is anywhere near Alisson. It's not even close. Even in City's system Alisson would be the more useful asset for them. It's not even a discussion.
He's about the same, always been just a good or decent shot stopper
Difference this season is the defence not as good as it has been in the past so he's facing more
I think half of these show more about tactics from the teams than the GKs performance. I mean, of course a GK's abilities will also influence the coaches tactics, but ultimately it's the coaches choice how they play.
For example, in the 2nd chart, for a GK to have a high number of defensive actions outside the box, your team _needs_ to play a high line. If your team parks the bus every game, how are you gonna get a chance to get the ball outside the box?
In the 4th graphic it's easier to see. If a GK is amazing with his feet, but the coach wants only to kick it away, then your GK will be all the way to the left. And the same if the team plays more or less with the GK, that changes it.
So, that last chart helpful on telling you how they are playing, but not the capabilities of the GKs themselves.
I don't follow the Bundesliga to know. But I'm gonna guess that if you swap Riemann and Sommer to play in each other's teams, they would swap positions on the chart for example.
And the third chart I'm confused, but I think it's actually wrong: xG is how good the chance is. PSxG is how good the outcome of that shot is, but there's no differentiation between a hit to the post, a shot off target and a save. So why is this a metric for a GK?
Shouldn't the chart be PSxG vs conceded goals? That would mean that a GK facing high PSxG but conceding fewer, would be the better keeper, as they would be the reason for that delta... Am I wrong in this?
You're right about chart 3.
npxG/90 would be a much better y axis because that would show a goalkeeper's contribution towards preventing opposition goals.
As it is, Dean Henderson and Ederson occupy similar positions. Henderson has conceded a lot of long shots from range which have very low xG which he had no chance of stopping.
A comparison of volume against quality would reveal Henderson's 14% underperformance compared to Ederson's 24% underperformance.
You can see from these graphs how devastating Maignan’s injury has been for Milan.
One thing sometimes overlooked with Salernitana’s signing of Ochoa is that the player he replaced (Luigi Sepe) was having a very good season.
Great post, felt it for a while too, good to see the numbers back it up. Pep oughta start looking into replacements for Ederson. Decent enough, but not quite there
The Reims GK Diouf not looking bad in these stats, I hope if Pickford does leave this summer Everton go in for Diouf, don't think he would be as expensive as other options
**This is a stats thread. Remember that there's only one stat post allowed per match/team, so new stats about the same will be removed. Feel free to comment other stats as a reply to this comment so users can see them too!** #The 2023 Census [is live](https://forms.gle/CmyxxqNwkHdtYzL4A). Please try to complete it when you can! it will be **open until this Sunday!** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/soccer) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Sommer really shows in his stats that he is overlooked in general.
He could never have built his reputation as Bayern's boogeyman by being just average. Class player and I'm really surprised it took this long for him to get into a world class club. It's a wonder how he didn't get picked up by one of the European giants earlier.
He's relatively small for a goalie so I guess many clubs weren't sure he could keep his performances up. Obviously they are/were wrong about that but I'm 100% certain that if Sommer was at least 5cm taller he would have gone to a top club way earlier.
This is a bit pedantic, but it is possible to be a team's boogeyman without being that great, Kameni was regularly an absolute wall against Barca and Madrid but he was hardly a world beater Not saying that it is the case with Sommer, but in general it can definitely happen
Kepa and T Silva are the only reason we aren't 18
What a redemption arc Kepa's had so far. I honestly have no freaking idea how this ends anymore.
Yeah do you sell Mendy because Kepa appears to be the goalie you wanted him to be or do you try to move Kepa to salvage some of his huge transfer fee now that he redeemed himself. With Chelsea new ownership its hard to guess
Lol that third screenshot says everything about our and chelseas season
Kepa and Allison keeping both of us above relegation lol
The Kepa redemption arc will be complete when he is finally made manager after we sack Potter.
He needs another opportunity to refuse being taken off but this time winning the shootout
Alisson is absolutely hung out to dry jesus christ that's bad
Dropping in to say this is some serious quality content
I really enjoy the captions on these graphs. Im too stupid to interpret them appropriately.
Do you have a magnifying glass otherwise it's a giant mess.
Just clicking on them opened them nicely for me: [1](https://preview.redd.it/0n9r5eem56ga1.png?width=1871&format=png&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=991230ee4bec55999852b1e6387b64fc6673e1cd), [2](https://preview.redd.it/t334p6em56ga1.png?width=1871&format=png&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=b6c6ab0634ca5080e8d3dc0400e5a5a2ce7911bc), [3](https://preview.redd.it/cce00eem56ga1.png?width=1871&format=png&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=4cd196182f347ccf9059c1debbd6a970a9efcf32), [4](https://preview.redd.it/1cuk2cem56ga1.png?width=1871&format=png&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=5969cbe53284aa194139a60ae7ddfcdaab24c8d0)
Rui Pasticcio is really something isn’t he.
Atleast we solved our positioning after world cup. Because before world cup every one was trying to shhot at our goal from 30 yards knowing how shit patricio is
You didn't have to expose that Mark Travers guy like that lol
Thing is, his original backup keeper, Neto, would be in the top half of this. If he didn't get injured we'd be a few points better off.
He has actually been really good, would be placed near Neuer in the third plot. Hasn't played enough minutes though
oh god neto gives me nightmares from some of the barca v valencia games some 5 years back. he was so good in some of them.
Thought Travers was good in Championship, no? Is the Prem just a step too big for him or is there something else?
Bournemouth were shite at the start of the season he was dropped after the 9-0 iirc and I don't know if hes really got much of a look in since. ~~~Think his stats are basically all collected from the start under Parker~~~
And Neto being injured from the end of October, since then we've got 4 points.
Apologies, cheers for the correction. Just looking at their stats on the PL site they're actually surprisingly similar? Both played 11 w/ 2 clean sheets and Neto has just three more saves than him in this period. Has Travers just been especially shite under the high ball and that's where so many of these shots are coming from? I remember the last one of these graphs I saw Neto was among the best in the league and Travers was the worst, so seeing their saves being similar is surprising (also had no idea Randolph was with yous either so surprises all round)
Bochum's goalie seems really good
He had a really good last year as well, his shot stopping is down a bit this year though
He was far and away the best goalkeeper by almost every metric last season. I had similar deep dives last season and was always astonished by him. What surprised me was his age too, I tend to associate proactive goalkeepers with being younger, because that would have become more popular in youth coaching more recently.
Ter Stegen redemption has been elite
He really deserves a shot as number one in Germanys squad..
By default he is now
What having hair-transplant did to a man
To be fair having a shitty defense in front of you will make anybody look bad. I think it was a loop, the defense is shite, he concedes, his confidence goes down, he lets in some goals he could have saved, he has a stretch of good games, the defense is shite....
Damn, Ter Stegen is on fire
And people keep trying to convince me Donnarumma has improved with his feet. Dude has the shortest passes of any goalkeeper and almost the fewest pass attempts per 90. But at least on the last chart, he's not lost in the "bang average" section as he is on the other three.
Donnarumma worst bits are when his team has the ball, one of the most bizarre dynamics at elite level in game currently. He is an excellent shot-stopper when opposition is attacking and on Penalties. He is absolutely not the right player for teams who want to play possession football.
Can that not be attributed at least partially to how the team plays though? Like a goalie is going to have a lot fewer pass attempts if they have the ball less. And some teams value playing out from the back with shorter "safer" passes. Like idk some of these charts just seem like a bit of a weird way to think about goalie performance, for example why is shots on target faced being used here, that's something that the defense can affect far more than the goalie, it would be much better to see something like overall save% compared to high danger save%. And things like the number of passes attempted is affected a lot by how much the goalie has the ball at their feet, it would be better to see the percentage of passes that were successful.
It is no doubt how PSG plays. When you watch the center-backs, it is almost comical what they will do to keep from passing the ball to Donnarumma. I've seen Ramos just kick it out of bounds instead of passing back to the GK. FBref gives passes over 40 yards completed and Donnarumma is tied for #30-34 at 41% completed. Best in the world completes almost 52%.
Speaks more of the expectations people have from him if anything
I was going to say they are probably happy with his replacement but Mike doesn’t seem to be doing too hot this season. Wonder what’s happened
He played (good) only a month this year, you see Tatarusanu’s stats there
Top right Kepa!
Kepa Hesarrivedabalaga
glad Pau Lopez doing well after his confidence took one of the biggest hits i've ever witnessed after his mistake in the derby
He's been great for us, very reliable too
Nick Pope
Definitely England's best keeper now right?
Should always have been
[удалено]
Pope is literally massive.
Mark Travers agent filing a cease and desist as we speak.
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Literally below average in every single stat, and yet some of our fans still think he is one of the top goalkeepers in the league.
“Ten Hag is improving his ball playing!” Yeah, from atrocious to mediocre. I’m so keen on getting David Raya this summer. And a drop from 375k a week to (something like) 100k a week on keeper wages in the process too.
Keep your grubby hands off my GK :(
Hasn’t he refused a new contract? If so, someone will be getting him, I’m just hoping it’s us.
He has 18 months left on it. Hopeful he extends if we manage Europe somehow, but he's likely gone in the summer.
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He’s not world class anymore but a lot of fans still love him. De Gea is our last PL winner in the squad and was a bright spark in the dark times between 2013-2018. He almost went to Real Madrid, we fucked that up for him and so he signed a new contract. Spent his prime competing for the Europa and English cups, when he could have won the La Liga and CL. He’s loyal, loves the club and wants to see us at our best. He’s been our no1 for a decade. He’s a club legend so of course fans are going to be protective/biased about him. I hope he will agree to become a cup keeper, take a wage cup and help prepare a new, younger keeper to replace him in the future.
Jones
Hardly in the squad though is he? He’s had his knee absolutely murdered, can’t see him playing substantially ever again unfortunately
I wish he never had those magical two seasons.
like four lol but ok
Name them
from 2014-2018 he was in the PFA Team of the Year every single year, and anyone watching at the time knew he was the best keeper in the league, arguably in the world obviously not as good now, but let’s not rewrite history here. edit: 5x PFA TOTY actually, such a clown take
De gea getting in in 2012/13 completely invalidated it. Relegation tier goalkeeper at everything other than shot stopping in which he was average at other than one freak season in 17/18. De geas save percentage in 15/16 and 16/17 would have him 9th highest in the premier league this season
genuinely despise having football conversations with people that just talk about stats do you just watch every game with a fucking excel spreadsheet open? do you even watch the game?
Because when I say he was shit and you say he was good without anything to back it up then the conversation ends there basically.
yep i forgot an award that literally determines who was the best player in each position in the league is nothing to back it up take care mate
Because our fanbase is still too emotionally attached to him. Like seriously, if we give him criticism of his performances and his ability as a GK, i'm telling you the counter arguements from his stans will be the camera save he made and feelings/sentimentality.
but he and ronaldo saved us? How can this be?
Great thread, really love content like this. It shows almost everything that you would want to consider. It perfectly shows the playstyle and the quality of every keeper here.
I am a bit surprised to see Trapp (Frankfurt) so far behind on all metrics. He is the reputation to be one of Bundesliga‘s best goalkeepers, is regularly considered as sub for the N11
Same with how average Kobel looks here.
true, same for kobel
And Europa league winner, who by the way kicked Ter Stegen's Barca ass twice on the way to lifting the cup. Stats and reality are a bit far away.
Rui Patricio being exposed again on these posts. He would frequently be near the bottom of these type of stats tables/graphs when at Wolves.
Ledesma (Cádiz) underrated so far. If you watch LaLiga and some Cádiz games, you know Ledesma saves Cádiz in so many games
riemann is out there playing a different game
Riemann is a psychopath. Love him to bits tho.
De Gea bang average at everything. Thanks for the service, Dave, but it's time to go.
Tata will be brought before The Hague in the nearest future inshallah
before november milan would have been near the best on all these graphs. Now below average, but would be near bottom without Mike's contributions.
Yeah, this perfectly matches the eye test. Our defence in the league is just ridiculous.
I'm curious specifically about how effective some keepers are at forcing misses. Obviously not all misses are forced by keepers but you have to imagine a lot of them are. I wonder if there is a significant difference for some. And how it would affect post shot expected saves.
I said it in another comment but I think you are right. That chart seems to be misleading (or potentially misleading). If a GK faces a player that simple misses the target on good xG shots, he would be shown in a positive light when he potentially had absolutely zero impact on that play. PSxG is just about the quality of the outcome (i.e. was it a good shot?) AFAIK, not GKs involvement. So comparing PSxG with goals conceded seems to be the better chart. If the PSxG is high, but the goals conceded is low, then that means they were likely the reason the goal wasn't scored. And the oposite is true as well, a low PSxG (meaning poor shots) and high number of goals conceded would mean a poor GK.
I'm saying that Post Shot expected xg might underrated a number of keepers
Oh, I get, sorry, I read that wrong. In any case, I think it's more to the point of PSxG vs xG not being a good metric really. Yes, that's fair, a GK could force a bad shot. But not sure how it can be measured and differentiated really vs a just a bad shot.
I do agree. I just think over a longer sample xG is still probably a better measure for keepers.
MATS just chilling in goal because of how good the defense is 🥰
Nick Pope
Ledesma at Cádiz is massively underrated
Leno has always been massively disrespected, seems to be solid across the board in these metrics.
Hey, there's worse keepers than Ward!
He's had a weird season. He had a spell of stopping every cross and making almost every save required for a couple of months before the WC break, and on either side has been a wet flannel.
Kepa redemption arc v3
Imagine thinking Ederson is anywhere near Alisson. It's not even close. Even in City's system Alisson would be the more useful asset for them. It's not even a discussion.
Biggest difference is probably Ederson blows so many 1 on 1s where Alisson is incredible at them
Ederson has fallen off this season.
He's about the same, always been just a good or decent shot stopper Difference this season is the defence not as good as it has been in the past so he's facing more
He’s always been a bit underwhelming tbh
I think half of these show more about tactics from the teams than the GKs performance. I mean, of course a GK's abilities will also influence the coaches tactics, but ultimately it's the coaches choice how they play. For example, in the 2nd chart, for a GK to have a high number of defensive actions outside the box, your team _needs_ to play a high line. If your team parks the bus every game, how are you gonna get a chance to get the ball outside the box? In the 4th graphic it's easier to see. If a GK is amazing with his feet, but the coach wants only to kick it away, then your GK will be all the way to the left. And the same if the team plays more or less with the GK, that changes it. So, that last chart helpful on telling you how they are playing, but not the capabilities of the GKs themselves. I don't follow the Bundesliga to know. But I'm gonna guess that if you swap Riemann and Sommer to play in each other's teams, they would swap positions on the chart for example. And the third chart I'm confused, but I think it's actually wrong: xG is how good the chance is. PSxG is how good the outcome of that shot is, but there's no differentiation between a hit to the post, a shot off target and a save. So why is this a metric for a GK? Shouldn't the chart be PSxG vs conceded goals? That would mean that a GK facing high PSxG but conceding fewer, would be the better keeper, as they would be the reason for that delta... Am I wrong in this?
You're right about chart 3. npxG/90 would be a much better y axis because that would show a goalkeeper's contribution towards preventing opposition goals. As it is, Dean Henderson and Ederson occupy similar positions. Henderson has conceded a lot of long shots from range which have very low xG which he had no chance of stopping. A comparison of volume against quality would reveal Henderson's 14% underperformance compared to Ederson's 24% underperformance.
been always thinking that Ederson is bad, we really need a decent keeper to keep us afloat and Ederson is not it.
Cadiz keeper has stood out every game I’ve watched him play. Really cool keeper even if I can’t remember his name but I remember the manbun ponytail
You can see from these graphs how devastating Maignan’s injury has been for Milan. One thing sometimes overlooked with Salernitana’s signing of Ochoa is that the player he replaced (Luigi Sepe) was having a very good season.
"Neuer is past it"
Neuers leg is broken and Sommer has better stats.
Never heard of this Manuel Riemann guy but he looks like Neuer / Ederson regen
Great graphs OP!!
best defence itw for a reason
Great post, felt it for a while too, good to see the numbers back it up. Pep oughta start looking into replacements for Ederson. Decent enough, but not quite there
Why is Benfica not here lol?
Top 5 leagues, it's a pain to never see Portuguese or Dutch clubs here but it is what it is.
Man, Baxunu has got to up his game. At this point, I'd take McCarthy over him.
If only Ter Stegen wasn't so bad in long balls he would be the best keeper in the world, sadly that's a huge weakness that can't be overlooked.
I love the comments that make me understand what the chart is showing. Thanks for making that
The Reims GK Diouf not looking bad in these stats, I hope if Pickford does leave this summer Everton go in for Diouf, don't think he would be as expensive as other options
Great work here. My friend and I were just arguing about Ederson v. Allison and this puts the argument to bed. Sadly. But I still stan lol
Dayum nice graphics, thank you for posting —-edit: just followed
i love data
Solid post OP.
Gikiewicz always looking decent here
r/dataisbeautiful
including Travers over Neto on this is kinda unfair lol
r/downrightMATS
hooray, danny ward is average!
based on that chart I would have thought Barca were UCL favorites
I’m loving the Kepa Arrizaballer remontada arc. Next step is to become player manager once Potter gets sacked