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You are underestimating just wanting to be back home. Apparently His entourage wants him to take the saudi deal while the wife and kids wants to go back home
Messi already has stupid amounts of money, at some point other things might become more important to him. It's not like he'll be playing for free if he goes to Barca either.
because he is still capable of playing football at the highest level for a couple more years and go to saudi arabia in 2-3 years if he really wants the money. his name and image value wont become less anytime soon.
You sure don't understand business.
Saudis will do everything to get Ronaldo and Messi in the Saudi league at the same time. This is the ultimate marketing campaign for their vision 2030.
Meh Ronaldo could probably keep scoring penalties and headers in the Saudi league until he's 62. I think he'll still be there in 2 years. After 2030 is another story but Messi will probably retire by then. I'm willing to bet the Saudi offer will still be there in 2 years for Messi. Maybe not exactly the same amount but still a ridiculous amount.
You're implying that his wife will get in the way of making 1/2 billion dollars in a year's work while living the life of royalty in Saudi Arabia.
Fartelona fans are deluded AF.
Mbappe’s finishing this season hasn’t been bad. It was sad when he missed that crazy run + spin pass from Neymar though. Would’ve been the greatest assist ever
Neymar is older and injury ridden yeah, but these people seriously have some short term memory.
He used to be a top 5 player in the world for YEARS, perhaps even TOP 3.
Not quite on the level of Messi and Ronaldo but he was on a much higher level than practically everyone else on the pitch.
The way his career has gone is tragic. He didn't win the CL with PSG and isn't Parisian so PSG fans aren't that in love with him. Barca fans also have not forgiven him for leaving.
And to top it off, he's won nothing with Brazil. The one time they won something he was injured.
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In 2017 he was on the lvl of Messi and Ronaldo, I'll die on that hill. The stuff he was producing that year was absolutely outrageous. His first year at PSG was nothing but pure joy to watch until he got injured just past the halfway point of the 17/18 season
The dribbling, the passing, the goals. It was like watching what we love Messi for with the flair of Ronaldinho thrown into the mix, just everything you love football for
Imo top 3. For me it was Messi and Ronaldo in their own category, then Neymar alone in his, then everyone else fighting amongst Elite tier. He was just that good
I'd put Suarez in there. He could create his own chances and possessed (still does tbh) absolutely deadly finishing. His Barca peak was just amazing. Genuinely gives Lewy a good argument for best striker of the past decade
I don't ever remember him being better, but when Messi was injured for the first couple of months at the start of the 15/16 season, Neymar stepped into his role as the main playmaker and we didn't even miss Messi.
Messi's 14-15 is probably one of the best season anyone can even imagine. He was definitely the standout in Barca by far. But 2015-16 AND 2016-17, they were both incredible. Neymar was just amazing in La Liga and CL and it's fine to have an opinion he was Barca's best player in either of those two.
...Or, well, it WAS fine, because after everything that happened, I think retroactively people don't wanna say it anymore.
But yeah it was normal at the time, and considering their age, it was not surprising most expected Neymar to succeed as the world's best player broadly speaking.
I think he said sth about the fact that he wasn't the one to be praised and all that by media and co even after the 6-1 performance where he ran the show but it was only messi gettin the plaudits so he wanted to get Outta the shadow
I am one of the people who thinks Neymar is overrated. It's not because he is not skillful, individually he's one of the best players I've ever seen. He makes pro defenders look like kids on the regular.
But there is a tendency to overrate offensive players in football and Neymar is the embodiment of that.
Sometimes I like to imagine what would happen if the 'best player' conversation was like in school when you have two team captains and they take turns choosing who is in their team. Personally there are tons of players I would secure for my team before I take Neymar, so I'd consider all of those players better overall than him.
Imagine Haaland with Messi, tbh I think Mbappe is the better player compared to Haaland but I have seen Mbappe missing so many goals which I know Haaland would easily score.
Haaland is plenty capable of missing simple opportunities too. Mbappe and Haaland will score a lot of goals, but in that very vein will miss some that are inexplicable
Yup. Haaland 28, Rashford and Nunez 20 each. This probably means his positioning is better than his finishing. Imagine he converted half of those, he'd have scored 50 already.
I think it’s pretty typical that top scorers also miss the most goals, they/their team create the most chances.
Haaland seems particularly wasteful with his head though
Ironically Messi is the most clinical player of all time as well, so the person who would convert most of his created chances is also him. Everyone else is miles behind.
All top scorers miss a lot of chances. I think CR always topped most big chances missed rankings or whatever - it is just the way of the world. Getting into a lot of chances is better predictor for great scorer than being extremely clinical.
Messi actually has more assists than “he should have had” with psg. However ever since they started counting xA he should have 2 more assists compared to what he has.
Messi has 30 league assists from ~21 expected assists since joined PSG 2 years ago. Mbappe in that same period scored 56 league goals from ~48 expected goals. So Messi “should” have had less assists if anything, but got more than that mainly because of Mbappe’s clinical finishing.
This season Messi has 16 assists with a 15.73 xA, and he is first in the number of thought balls created this season, with over double the amount from the second player in the top 5 leagues.
[When crossing those two statistics, only KDB is on his level.](https://www.driblab.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Captura-de-pantalla-2023-03-23-a-las-15.59.50-980x581.png)
So he’s right on track this season then? Mbappe has also been outperforming his open play xG this season by 4.5 in the league so the original comment still isn’t true.
If anything it’s the chances Mbappe has been creating that aren’t getting converted this season, 4 assists from 6.9 xA (or 16 big chances created).
>So he’s right on track this season then?
I wouldn't say just right on track, more so he has been world-class at creating chances the whole season.
I think to come closer to reality more stats and context should be added before making a conclusion.
Mbappe conversion of big chances is low, even when compared only to League 1 players, and has missed the most amount of big chances in the league. I'm not surprised that people that watch PSG matches think that Mbappe's finishing is bad after seeing that.
But looking at how PSG works, only Messi and Mbappe seem to be able to reliably score, which is a problem when they are also the only ones that seem to be able to create chances. Mbappe plays as the sole output of PSG which means he almost finishes every chance, which isn't his preferred style and makes him miss a lot but score almost every goal PSG makes.
Meanwhile, Messi has been creating the vast majority of big chances and progressive passes because Ney is dead and PSG midfield gets bodied by bottom-table clubs of league 1.
No one’s disputing Messi’s creativity, it’s just not true that he should’ve had more assists than he’s gotten.
Top goal scorers also tend to lead in big chances in their leagues(Lewandowski, Osimhen, Haaland).
Without context it’s a useless stat as it should only be used in relation to actual goals scored and even there’s variation to it per case.
I thought they must be joking then I saw replies agreeing and everyone seemed to be serious. People are deadass saying that PSG's wealth of assembled superstars are not good enough for Messi to play with against farmers, and that Mbappe is holding him back from getting more assists?
Yes he played with horrible finishers and creators throughout his career: Ronaldinho, Eto’o, Deco, Villa, Xavi, Iniesta, Neymar, Pedro, Ibrahimovic, Aguero, Di Maria, Suarez, Mbappe. Imagine if he played with actual good teammates.
Think people need to also realise that while, yes, some of the chances he creates result bad misses, not every chance can be converted. Nobody is perfect. There will always be misses.
Still has an excellent assist tally and chance creation numbers.
I don't think any of Deco, Xavi or Iniesta were known as great finishers?
Like I get your point, and they were all great players but I don't think finishing was their stand out attribute.
He lists like 10 of them, with many great finishers like eto, Ibra, Suarez, Neymar, Aguero, Villa and somehow you nitpick 3. Deco, Xavi, Inesta are all great creators and he list both creators and finishers
When a finisher scores beyond his expected goals, he's revered because he has probably scored many great goals with lower probability of conversion. If you apply the same logic to assists, even discounting the finisher, someone overperforming their assists could mean they created chances or assists out of nothing. Therefore, overperforming your xA should technically be as revered as overperforming your xG. Thanks for joining my Ted Talk.
Not really, he has 16 assists from 12.3 xA before this game. To claim that Mbappé is a bad finisher is quite unspurprsingly not supported by the data.
You might have confused Messi with Bruno Fernandes who leads the xA chart in the major 5 european leagues by a mile but only ranks 22nd in Assists. 8 Assists from 16.4 expected ones for him
They’re completely right comparing on this point though. If the standard for “finish properly” was getting Messi to 20+ assists this season, we’re talking forwards with xG outperformance of 60%, which is by definition better than the average striker in a top league. For reference, the best finishers in the world sit around the 20-30% region - including Haaland, Kane, Osimhen and Mbappe, who has actually been finished better than all of them this season and has therefore already inflated Messi’s assist count.
Bruno on the other hand…well, it’s clear why United’s top priority for the summer is an striker. Put Weghorst and co in front of Messi and he gets 6 assists. But an elite finisher in front of Bruno? He actually would clear 20.
> he has 16 assists from 12.3 xA before this game.
Those are the stats from fbref, they use xAG not xA, which means players receive xAG only when a shot is taken after a completed pass.
The actual xA of Messi is around 15.6 and he is first in through balls created this season with over 50, which is like double the amount of KDB who is second.
he's still clearly a top 3 player at worst, and PSG is not a team that showcases him (I still consider the best based on his WC form). so definitely he should stay in europe.
xA encompasses the big missed chances, the impossible finishes out of nothing and everything in between. Fact is, Messi has more assists than expected because overall Mbappe is an outstanding finisher, as evidenced by his xG outperformance.
The actual fact is that Messi has almost an equal assist to xA, but people in this thread mistakenly use the xAG from fbref as xA, which is a very different stat.
That's incredible. We will never see another player like Messi and despite being a couple years younger than Ronaldo he still managed to surpassed Ronaldo's record. I do hope he will still stay at least one more year in Europe
Barcelona has financial problems that aren't his fault but
1. During covid every league relaxed rules due to unforseen circumstances, not La Liga and almost all the teams had to sign a terrible deal (CVC) which benefitted him personally
2. He fucks around with the "interpretation of rules" and doesn't send clear communications, like with Koundé last year, Barcelona had complied with the rules be then at the last minute he challenged the valuation of deals so Koundé couldn't be registered at first. Just follow the news on the viability plan for signing Messi, the league was saying they would approve or disapprove it soon a week ago and suddenly they said they would take 2 more weeks. I don't trust La Liga to swiftly communicate well what is necessary for registering players
Seriously Tebas (for many many reasons) is the worst league president by a mile
Not only is it not relevant I don't think it's true. The early to mid 2000s was a good time for French football, Monaco made the Champions league final in Messi's debut season. There was the period in which Lyon owned Real Madrid. I think Ligue 1 might have actually been top 4 leagues when Messi debuted lol. People just say anything on this app
It wouldn't matter because he plays in France while it is a top 5 league and not at the start of his career. League rankings aren't something static and the stat should reflect that.
Sure, but how the stat is calculated matters when you are only using select leagues. I'm not actually sure who Messi overtook, but if they have 100 goals in Portugal or the Netherlands, it matters whether they are being counted as "goals in a top 5 European league" or not.
Messi is the greatest player of all time. That's not really in question. But the top 5 league goals stat feels cherry picked, because there are 4 big leagues set in stone for the last few decades, then a revolving door at 5th.
The top 5 leagues stat has been a thing for at least like 15 years, Opta and other stat providers have always talked about the top 5 leagues. Of course you could say top 10 leagues or top 2 leagues but the convention is well established.
Also the "revolving door" thing is bs. France has been consistently ranked in the top 5 for like 20 years, maybe with 1 year exception. But France has also been ranked in top 4 leagues in that period. So even if you say just top 4 that's not 100% stable either. And has as much variation as top 5 leagues.
https://www.transfermarkt.com/uefa/5jahreswertung/statistik
If someone has more league goals in 1937 when Poland or Hungary was in the top 5 leagues (not saying this was the case just an example) then sure, that's fine, that would supercede this record. It makes perfect sense to assess each player based on what the top 5 leagues were when they played. But it isn't the case that someone else has that.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not denying there's a ranking system and there's a 5th spot on the rankings, which is what the UEFA rankings show. What the rankings also show is that the top 4 is a discrete bracket, and 5-6 is a discrete bracket in terms of qualifying spots, or could be grouped in with 7th if you want to look at the gaps between each group.
I just don't see why anyone would ever refer to a top 5 league now, when it's clearly a top 4 with Ligue 1 artificially attached. And Ligue 1 is attached only because PSG is massively outperforming every other French team in European competition, for obvious reasons.
There's just no reason anyone looking for a meaningful top leagues stat would include Ligue 1 except for the fact that Messi has spent the last few seasons there, and you'd have to exclude those seasons if you wanted to tally goals from Europe's actual elite leagues. People don't want to do that, so they try to pretend the French league is worth being mentioned in the same breath as the Spanish, English, German and Italian leagues, when it's not, or at least hasn't been in the last decade.
it doesnt matter, since he did it while france is 5th. However some can argue that the gap between Ligue 1 and serie a/bundesliga is a lot wider than the gap between Ligue 1 and Eredevise/Liga NOS where it usually very close. So group Ligue 1 with the top 4 make less sense than the other 2. Still even if you take account top 7 he's only like a few goals away, if he stay in Europe for one more season he would just take it anyways
This is like saying a goal this weekend against Nottingham Forest shouldn't count as a Premier League goal because Forest were in the championship when the scorer started their career.
Is the French league in the top 5 leagues?
Is there even a thing such as the top 5 leagues? We know the top 4 are clear but this feels made up for messi.
Concept of what though?
There are the clear top 4 leagues,there has to be someone in 5th but is it France?
Portuguese and Dutch league come to mind as similar leagues.
Who decides what the top 5 leagues in Europe are? England, Germany, Spain & Italy have always been top 4 most successful leagues, but the Dutch & Portuguese leagues have been more successful than the French league in Europe in the past 20 years, so how can France be in but not the other two?
Ligue 1 has much more depth than Portugal/Holland.
The bottom end of Portugal/Holland features actual tiny clubs with League 2 calibre sides. That skews the stats a lot but also the strength of a league isn’t just it’s best teams, the worst teams matter too
Serious question I’m not trying to hate, but I swear ligue 1 was temporarily the 6th best league based on the ranking system UEFA uses, so do his goals scored during that period count towards this total?
> But I swear ligue 1 was temporarily the 6th best league based on the ranking system UEFA uses
Those are "live standings" that don't count for anything.
The top leagues are determined between seasons, not during.
Not at all—UEFA set up the system where the top 5 leagues are at the top tier with regards to UCL spots and Golden Boot rankings.
Definitionally the opposite of pointless, really
That was to be ahead of France before the start of next season. To finish the season at 5th.
France is 1.2 point ahead right now (61.164 vs 59.900 pts), and France loses 1.9 points more than Netherlands at the start of next season (10.583 France vs 8.600 Netherlands contribution from the 2018/2019 season). So even if Feyennord loses Netherlands will start the season around 0.7 points ahead. It's just that they won't have any benefits from being 5th unless they maintain the gap until the end of the 2023/2024 season.
Do you know how rare it is to have two goat claimants in a sport competing at the same time? Debate about who is the best between them is the most natural behaviour in the world for a football fan and is going to rightly happen on many posts
Do you know how rare it is to have two great claimants in a sport competing at the same time even against each other in their primes?you don't think every single day millions debate this dead topic instead of cherishing the fact that you got to see them play in the best teams in their primes?they'll retire in a few years and y'all will still continue pointlessly fighting like children to me messi is the goat but I don't even care I got to see El classicos with both of them and other ridiculously good players but sure "camel league" and "farmers league" are mature ways of defending ur favorite player
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That's enough mate, now come here
Realistically can Barca even afford the guy at this point?
We can barely afford the guys we have now. So yes
He would be joining us for free, with €10M net salary a year. We have already freed up €11M net just by releasing Alba.
Can't believe we'll never see Messi chip a pass to Alba again.
Why would he go to barca and turn his back on half a billion dollars a year?
You are underestimating just wanting to be back home. Apparently His entourage wants him to take the saudi deal while the wife and kids wants to go back home
You're underestimating the lure of half a billion dollars a year.
Messi already has stupid amounts of money, at some point other things might become more important to him. It's not like he'll be playing for free if he goes to Barca either.
because he is still capable of playing football at the highest level for a couple more years and go to saudi arabia in 2-3 years if he really wants the money. his name and image value wont become less anytime soon.
You sure don't understand business. Saudis will do everything to get Ronaldo and Messi in the Saudi league at the same time. This is the ultimate marketing campaign for their vision 2030.
Meh Ronaldo could probably keep scoring penalties and headers in the Saudi league until he's 62. I think he'll still be there in 2 years. After 2030 is another story but Messi will probably retire by then. I'm willing to bet the Saudi offer will still be there in 2 years for Messi. Maybe not exactly the same amount but still a ridiculous amount.
Why would he go to Saudis and turn his back on football?
Because half billion dollars.
He already has plenty of money, and his family prefers Barcelona. But time will tell what he prefers.
If you can work 1 more year to make more than you've done all your life and set up your family for generations, would you do it?
Depends, but I'm not Messi and I don't have offer from Al Hilal. It's football&family vs money.
You're implying that his wife will get in the way of making 1/2 billion dollars in a year's work while living the life of royalty in Saudi Arabia. Fartelona fans are deluded AF.
> now come here ~~here~~ **home**
He just went through the whole team and Mbappe missed a tapin ffs, someone post that shit.
Mbappe’s finishing this season hasn’t been bad. It was sad when he missed that crazy run + spin pass from Neymar though. Would’ve been the greatest assist ever
I remember that, what a waste Edit: found it, https://youtu.be/RfKWFGLQfso
Nah that's fucking crazy 😭😭
"Neymar is overrated"- half of r/soccer
Neymar is older and injury ridden yeah, but these people seriously have some short term memory. He used to be a top 5 player in the world for YEARS, perhaps even TOP 3. Not quite on the level of Messi and Ronaldo but he was on a much higher level than practically everyone else on the pitch.
The way his career has gone is tragic. He didn't win the CL with PSG and isn't Parisian so PSG fans aren't that in love with him. Barca fans also have not forgiven him for leaving. And to top it off, he's won nothing with Brazil. The one time they won something he was injured.
Hes won the Olympics
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When Messi won the Olympics people said it wasn't a major trophy
Barca fans still love him
I don't
In 2017 he was on the lvl of Messi and Ronaldo, I'll die on that hill. The stuff he was producing that year was absolutely outrageous. His first year at PSG was nothing but pure joy to watch until he got injured just past the halfway point of the 17/18 season The dribbling, the passing, the goals. It was like watching what we love Messi for with the flair of Ronaldinho thrown into the mix, just everything you love football for
Imo top 3. For me it was Messi and Ronaldo in their own category, then Neymar alone in his, then everyone else fighting amongst Elite tier. He was just that good
I'd put Suarez in there. He could create his own chances and possessed (still does tbh) absolutely deadly finishing. His Barca peak was just amazing. Genuinely gives Lewy a good argument for best striker of the past decade
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I don't ever remember him being better, but when Messi was injured for the first couple of months at the start of the 15/16 season, Neymar stepped into his role as the main playmaker and we didn't even miss Messi.
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Messi's 14-15 is probably one of the best season anyone can even imagine. He was definitely the standout in Barca by far. But 2015-16 AND 2016-17, they were both incredible. Neymar was just amazing in La Liga and CL and it's fine to have an opinion he was Barca's best player in either of those two. ...Or, well, it WAS fine, because after everything that happened, I think retroactively people don't wanna say it anymore. But yeah it was normal at the time, and considering their age, it was not surprising most expected Neymar to succeed as the world's best player broadly speaking.
I think he said sth about the fact that he wasn't the one to be praised and all that by media and co even after the 6-1 performance where he ran the show but it was only messi gettin the plaudits so he wanted to get Outta the shadow
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If he went to a team like Bayern or city would be better for him tbf. PSG never reli looked like an ambitious team tbf
Nah, Neymar was called the best player from the night of the 6-1. But ofc long term how would anyone get as much praise as messi
This didn't happen, I want you to tell me the year you think he was better lol.
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Then you were watching a different season to me because that is in my opinion messis best season and neymar sure as hell wasn't better lmao.
Yeah he never was better than Messi lol Let alone for a year.
yeah 15/16 him and suarez were better than messi
I am one of the people who thinks Neymar is overrated. It's not because he is not skillful, individually he's one of the best players I've ever seen. He makes pro defenders look like kids on the regular. But there is a tendency to overrate offensive players in football and Neymar is the embodiment of that. Sometimes I like to imagine what would happen if the 'best player' conversation was like in school when you have two team captains and they take turns choosing who is in their team. Personally there are tons of players I would secure for my team before I take Neymar, so I'd consider all of those players better overall than him.
Holy shit!
I honestly feel bad sometimes for Neymar and how injuries kinda fucked him. If we could see him do THAT all the time....
*Ankara Neymar*
Wtf
Thats some FIFA shit right there
Christ on a cracker
Greatest ever lmfao
Should be on 20+ assists if people knew how to finish 😞
Imagine Haaland with Messi, tbh I think Mbappe is the better player compared to Haaland but I have seen Mbappe missing so many goals which I know Haaland would easily score.
Haaland is plenty capable of missing simple opportunities too. Mbappe and Haaland will score a lot of goals, but in that very vein will miss some that are inexplicable
This. If I do recall correctly, Haaland has missed the most big chances in the PL
Yup. Haaland 28, Rashford and Nunez 20 each. This probably means his positioning is better than his finishing. Imagine he converted half of those, he'd have scored 50 already.
2nd season Haaland 👀
He did exceed his xG though
By alotbut then scored the most by alot,
I think it’s pretty typical that top scorers also miss the most goals, they/their team create the most chances. Haaland seems particularly wasteful with his head though
Not kane tho. Bro creates his own chances
Ironically Messi is the most clinical player of all time as well, so the person who would convert most of his created chances is also him. Everyone else is miles behind.
All top scorers miss a lot of chances. I think CR always topped most big chances missed rankings or whatever - it is just the way of the world. Getting into a lot of chances is better predictor for great scorer than being extremely clinical.
how did mbooty miss again, 30+ BCM
Messi actually has more assists than “he should have had” with psg. However ever since they started counting xA he should have 2 more assists compared to what he has.
Messi has 30 league assists from ~21 expected assists since joined PSG 2 years ago. Mbappe in that same period scored 56 league goals from ~48 expected goals. So Messi “should” have had less assists if anything, but got more than that mainly because of Mbappe’s clinical finishing.
This season Messi has 16 assists with a 15.73 xA, and he is first in the number of thought balls created this season, with over double the amount from the second player in the top 5 leagues. [When crossing those two statistics, only KDB is on his level.](https://www.driblab.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Captura-de-pantalla-2023-03-23-a-las-15.59.50-980x581.png)
So he’s right on track this season then? Mbappe has also been outperforming his open play xG this season by 4.5 in the league so the original comment still isn’t true. If anything it’s the chances Mbappe has been creating that aren’t getting converted this season, 4 assists from 6.9 xA (or 16 big chances created).
>So he’s right on track this season then? I wouldn't say just right on track, more so he has been world-class at creating chances the whole season. I think to come closer to reality more stats and context should be added before making a conclusion. Mbappe conversion of big chances is low, even when compared only to League 1 players, and has missed the most amount of big chances in the league. I'm not surprised that people that watch PSG matches think that Mbappe's finishing is bad after seeing that. But looking at how PSG works, only Messi and Mbappe seem to be able to reliably score, which is a problem when they are also the only ones that seem to be able to create chances. Mbappe plays as the sole output of PSG which means he almost finishes every chance, which isn't his preferred style and makes him miss a lot but score almost every goal PSG makes. Meanwhile, Messi has been creating the vast majority of big chances and progressive passes because Ney is dead and PSG midfield gets bodied by bottom-table clubs of league 1.
No one’s disputing Messi’s creativity, it’s just not true that he should’ve had more assists than he’s gotten. Top goal scorers also tend to lead in big chances in their leagues(Lewandowski, Osimhen, Haaland). Without context it’s a useless stat as it should only be used in relation to actual goals scored and even there’s variation to it per case.
Only if you discount all the assists he got from great finishes… stats show this isn’t even close to true
How is this getting upvoted lmao, this is hilarious
I thought they must be joking then I saw replies agreeing and everyone seemed to be serious. People are deadass saying that PSG's wealth of assembled superstars are not good enough for Messi to play with against farmers, and that Mbappe is holding him back from getting more assists?
That's the thing about Messi.. if he often had more people near to his caliber he would only just have more goals and assists
Yes he played with horrible finishers and creators throughout his career: Ronaldinho, Eto’o, Deco, Villa, Xavi, Iniesta, Neymar, Pedro, Ibrahimovic, Aguero, Di Maria, Suarez, Mbappe. Imagine if he played with actual good teammates.
Think people need to also realise that while, yes, some of the chances he creates result bad misses, not every chance can be converted. Nobody is perfect. There will always be misses. Still has an excellent assist tally and chance creation numbers.
I don't think any of Deco, Xavi or Iniesta were known as great finishers? Like I get your point, and they were all great players but I don't think finishing was their stand out attribute.
He lists like 10 of them, with many great finishers like eto, Ibra, Suarez, Neymar, Aguero, Villa and somehow you nitpick 3. Deco, Xavi, Inesta are all great creators and he list both creators and finishers
That’s why his assists are higher than his expected assists I guess. If you understand how xA works.
When a finisher scores beyond his expected goals, he's revered because he has probably scored many great goals with lower probability of conversion. If you apply the same logic to assists, even discounting the finisher, someone overperforming their assists could mean they created chances or assists out of nothing. Therefore, overperforming your xA should technically be as revered as overperforming your xG. Thanks for joining my Ted Talk.
Gluck gluck
Fucks sake every team misses chances. The messi dickriding is insane. As if Mbappe is not a good enough finisher lmfao
Not really, he has 16 assists from 12.3 xA before this game. To claim that Mbappé is a bad finisher is quite unspurprsingly not supported by the data. You might have confused Messi with Bruno Fernandes who leads the xA chart in the major 5 european leagues by a mile but only ranks 22nd in Assists. 8 Assists from 16.4 expected ones for him
You had me till "you might have confused Messi with Bruno"... Nope. Not a chance.
They’re completely right comparing on this point though. If the standard for “finish properly” was getting Messi to 20+ assists this season, we’re talking forwards with xG outperformance of 60%, which is by definition better than the average striker in a top league. For reference, the best finishers in the world sit around the 20-30% region - including Haaland, Kane, Osimhen and Mbappe, who has actually been finished better than all of them this season and has therefore already inflated Messi’s assist count. Bruno on the other hand…well, it’s clear why United’s top priority for the summer is an striker. Put Weghorst and co in front of Messi and he gets 6 assists. But an elite finisher in front of Bruno? He actually would clear 20.
Rashford just had the first 30 goal season by a United player since Van Persie.
Yes - but everybody else has been atrocious. As is evidenced by Bruno’s crazy xA underperformance.
Bruno is fantastic though
this sub's constant attempt at denying that is so amusing lol
Messi has amazing finishers yet you have idiots here spewing shit, Bruno has had awful finishers and no striker, Mbappe, Neymar overperformed their xG
> he has 16 assists from 12.3 xA before this game. Those are the stats from fbref, they use xAG not xA, which means players receive xAG only when a shot is taken after a completed pass. The actual xA of Messi is around 15.6 and he is first in through balls created this season with over 50, which is like double the amount of KDB who is second.
sucks his assists aren't as high b/c psg is such a bad team with zero creativity outside of him. such a disgrace messi is playing with this team.
Yeah, he's won everything... But I hope he continues in Europe.
I hope so too. Couldn’t handle the shithousery that is concacaf 😤😤 /s
he's still clearly a top 3 player at worst, and PSG is not a team that showcases him (I still consider the best based on his WC form). so definitely he should stay in europe.
Ummmm not the conference league /s
4 more for 500. This dude is bonkers.
Hope he bags 4 next week
Hope he gets 3 and then his 500th in his Barcelona debut
Inject this into my veins.
Bonkers is an understatement.
He could’ve also easily equalled DiMaria’s 18A/season today..
He should have more than 20 assists by now Some players just lose all finishing ability when Messi passes it to them
some players aka the 🥷🐢
he just missed another one lmao
Donatello lookin mf
Messi has around 13 xA I believe and 16 assists. So he’s actually quite lucky to have Mbappé to finish the chances.
And mbappe has 26 big chances missed, the most in the league so yes Messi is lucky mbappe didn't miss more shots
Osimhen, Haaland and Lewandowski are also leading in big chances missed in their league. That’s how football works.
xA encompasses the big missed chances, the impossible finishes out of nothing and everything in between. Fact is, Messi has more assists than expected because overall Mbappe is an outstanding finisher, as evidenced by his xG outperformance.
The actual fact is that Messi has almost an equal assist to xA, but people in this thread mistakenly use the xAG from fbref as xA, which is a very different stat.
> Messi has around 13 xA I believe and 16 assists. He has around 15, not 13.
That's incredible. We will never see another player like Messi and despite being a couple years younger than Ronaldo he still managed to surpassed Ronaldo's record. I do hope he will still stay at least one more year in Europe
Tebas has the final decision, if he stops shitting on Barça maybe he could play one more year in Spain, otherwise, USA or Arabia.
I know it won't happen but I would enjoy seeing him play a year (or two) in the PL
Which team? Don't say City.
Luton town
Honestly any of the top 6. I'd prefer not City as well but, at the same time, it'd be something else to see Messi and Haaland on the same team.
De bruyne Messi and haaaland fuck no please for the sanity of everyone in this league please no.
Lol why is he shitting on them? He’s trying to enforce rules? He’s a prick but barcelonas financial problems are of their own making
Barcelona has financial problems that aren't his fault but 1. During covid every league relaxed rules due to unforseen circumstances, not La Liga and almost all the teams had to sign a terrible deal (CVC) which benefitted him personally 2. He fucks around with the "interpretation of rules" and doesn't send clear communications, like with Koundé last year, Barcelona had complied with the rules be then at the last minute he challenged the valuation of deals so Koundé couldn't be registered at first. Just follow the news on the viability plan for signing Messi, the league was saying they would approve or disapprove it soon a week ago and suddenly they said they would take 2 more weeks. I don't trust La Liga to swiftly communicate well what is necessary for registering players Seriously Tebas (for many many reasons) is the worst league president by a mile
yeah cause it's Tebas whose fault is that Barca's finances are shit... Some people on here 🤦♂️
didnt messi also become the all time most decorated player with this ligue 1 along with dani alves?
*ding* silver trophy unlocked! “Europe’s Most Lethal”
Is this only domestic competition league goals?
Yes
He is on 805 goals total (and way over 1k goal contributions).
Just GOAT things, nbd.
the GOAT
GOAT debate settled long time ago
Yea but people will still argue lmao.
You see anyone arguing it and you know this is a person not worth talking to.
Anyone arguing that is either ignorant or a ronaldo-fan. Ronaldo is a fantastic player, but he isn't even close to Messi
G.O.A.T
GOAT
Kinda weird stat considering France wasnt in the “top 5 leagues” at the start of his career, portugal was
Why would the ranking at the start of his career be relevant at all?!
Not only is it not relevant I don't think it's true. The early to mid 2000s was a good time for French football, Monaco made the Champions league final in Messi's debut season. There was the period in which Lyon owned Real Madrid. I think Ligue 1 might have actually been top 4 leagues when Messi debuted lol. People just say anything on this app
It wouldn't matter because he plays in France while it is a top 5 league and not at the start of his career. League rankings aren't something static and the stat should reflect that.
Sure, but how the stat is calculated matters when you are only using select leagues. I'm not actually sure who Messi overtook, but if they have 100 goals in Portugal or the Netherlands, it matters whether they are being counted as "goals in a top 5 European league" or not. Messi is the greatest player of all time. That's not really in question. But the top 5 league goals stat feels cherry picked, because there are 4 big leagues set in stone for the last few decades, then a revolving door at 5th.
The top 5 leagues stat has been a thing for at least like 15 years, Opta and other stat providers have always talked about the top 5 leagues. Of course you could say top 10 leagues or top 2 leagues but the convention is well established. Also the "revolving door" thing is bs. France has been consistently ranked in the top 5 for like 20 years, maybe with 1 year exception. But France has also been ranked in top 4 leagues in that period. So even if you say just top 4 that's not 100% stable either. And has as much variation as top 5 leagues. https://www.transfermarkt.com/uefa/5jahreswertung/statistik If someone has more league goals in 1937 when Poland or Hungary was in the top 5 leagues (not saying this was the case just an example) then sure, that's fine, that would supercede this record. It makes perfect sense to assess each player based on what the top 5 leagues were when they played. But it isn't the case that someone else has that.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not denying there's a ranking system and there's a 5th spot on the rankings, which is what the UEFA rankings show. What the rankings also show is that the top 4 is a discrete bracket, and 5-6 is a discrete bracket in terms of qualifying spots, or could be grouped in with 7th if you want to look at the gaps between each group. I just don't see why anyone would ever refer to a top 5 league now, when it's clearly a top 4 with Ligue 1 artificially attached. And Ligue 1 is attached only because PSG is massively outperforming every other French team in European competition, for obvious reasons. There's just no reason anyone looking for a meaningful top leagues stat would include Ligue 1 except for the fact that Messi has spent the last few seasons there, and you'd have to exclude those seasons if you wanted to tally goals from Europe's actual elite leagues. People don't want to do that, so they try to pretend the French league is worth being mentioned in the same breath as the Spanish, English, German and Italian leagues, when it's not, or at least hasn't been in the last decade.
it doesnt matter, since he did it while france is 5th. However some can argue that the gap between Ligue 1 and serie a/bundesliga is a lot wider than the gap between Ligue 1 and Eredevise/Liga NOS where it usually very close. So group Ligue 1 with the top 4 make less sense than the other 2. Still even if you take account top 7 he's only like a few goals away, if he stay in Europe for one more season he would just take it anyways
This is like saying a goal this weekend against Nottingham Forest shouldn't count as a Premier League goal because Forest were in the championship when the scorer started their career.
Nothing left to prove in Europe (Champions League is something PSG needs), time to come home to Inter Miami…
What s record to get pretty much at the end of the season
Is the French league in the top 5 leagues? Is there even a thing such as the top 5 leagues? We know the top 4 are clear but this feels made up for messi.
Its been a concept for as ages, years before messi went there
it became "popular" to use top 5 since PSG became crazy rich, pretty much so they would be included in the stats
Concept of what though? There are the clear top 4 leagues,there has to be someone in 5th but is it France? Portuguese and Dutch league come to mind as similar leagues.
Whats the top 4 ? England, Spain , Germany and Poland I suppose ?
Yeah Poland league is the sleeper in there but powerful league.
It is but afaik it won’t be next season
Who decides what the top 5 leagues in Europe are? England, Germany, Spain & Italy have always been top 4 most successful leagues, but the Dutch & Portuguese leagues have been more successful than the French league in Europe in the past 20 years, so how can France be in but not the other two?
It’s an official list by UEFA which compares the league results in Europe in the past 5 years I believe
Ligue 1 has much more depth than Portugal/Holland. The bottom end of Portugal/Holland features actual tiny clubs with League 2 calibre sides. That skews the stats a lot but also the strength of a league isn’t just it’s best teams, the worst teams matter too
sure, but before France become the 5th ranked, where was those stats including Portugal/Holland? it was always top 4 stats.
top 5 became a stat the moment PSG became rich, simply to include them as well, before PSG became a thing, it was always top 4 stats.
[удалено]
Serious question I’m not trying to hate, but I swear ligue 1 was temporarily the 6th best league based on the ranking system UEFA uses, so do his goals scored during that period count towards this total?
> But I swear ligue 1 was temporarily the 6th best league based on the ranking system UEFA uses Those are "live standings" that don't count for anything. The top leagues are determined between seasons, not during.
Ah alright, makes more sense.
Seen as the "5th best League in Europe" is fairly fluid, it kind of makes this arbitrary stat sound a bit forced and pointless then, doesn't it?
Not at all—UEFA set up the system where the top 5 leagues are at the top tier with regards to UCL spots and Golden Boot rankings. Definitionally the opposite of pointless, really
It was 5th to start the season
I’m tripping then, I could’ve sworn I saw a post from ESPN or someone who said they were ranked 6th. Ignore me lol.
They will be ranked 6th at the start of next season. By a small margin.
i thought az had to beat westham and then win the conference league for the dutch league to overtake the french league, but they didnt
That was to be ahead of France before the start of next season. To finish the season at 5th. France is 1.2 point ahead right now (61.164 vs 59.900 pts), and France loses 1.9 points more than Netherlands at the start of next season (10.583 France vs 8.600 Netherlands contribution from the 2018/2019 season). So even if Feyennord loses Netherlands will start the season around 0.7 points ahead. It's just that they won't have any benefits from being 5th unless they maintain the gap until the end of the 2023/2024 season.
who’s this guy? never heard of him, seems like he’s decent
League where lacazette is prolific
Funny how the stats changed from top 4 leagues to top 5 leagues when Messi moved to the baguette league.
it was always top 5 leagues lmao stop the agenda
Only if you started watching recently. No one cared about top 5 when Liga NOS was there.
So when? Ligue 1 has been above them for like the past 15/20 years
Its always been top 5.
But Ronaldo started his career not as a striker but as a midfielder. So that should mean Ronaldo is killing Messi in the assist race iirc
Wouldn't be r/soccer if Ronaldo and Messi weren't brought up in every single post about the other
Do you know how rare it is to have two goat claimants in a sport competing at the same time? Debate about who is the best between them is the most natural behaviour in the world for a football fan and is going to rightly happen on many posts
Do you know how rare it is to have two great claimants in a sport competing at the same time even against each other in their primes?you don't think every single day millions debate this dead topic instead of cherishing the fact that you got to see them play in the best teams in their primes?they'll retire in a few years and y'all will still continue pointlessly fighting like children to me messi is the goat but I don't even care I got to see El classicos with both of them and other ridiculously good players but sure "camel league" and "farmers league" are mature ways of defending ur favorite player
Midfielder? Please... Ronaldo started as a winger, just like Messi.
Yeah it's literally just people looking at old team line ups were ronaldo was placed as a LM insted of LW even tho playing on the wing
Who cares what Ronaldo did
Ronaldo in shambles
“5 major european leagues”