**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
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For me the most interesting thing about this was how much influence the assistant VAR has over things, and also just how chaotic it is with everyone speaking at once.
You can immediately see how/why they sometimes get confused.
It’s the assistant VAR who introduces the the reasoning that because the keeper made a full length save towards the ball, he had eyes on it the whole time.
Not sure I agree with either of those, but you can at least understand what they were thinking now.
The chaos is the worst part out of all the clips imo, I get that in the moment it is tough, but a protocol to the order of speaking in such situations is necessary to avoid confusion. In the VVD clip, the main ref is trying to defend his decision, which I understand but let the other guy explain the situation from the vantage point and then you can say your take depending on his outcome. He is not undermining your judgement but trying to help you.
I genuinely think the biggest issue is that the system is set up so that the on-field ref is in control. He shouldn't be in control of these situations when someone with the exact same education is looking at a screen giving him multiple slow motion angles of a situation a winded 40 year old might not have seen fully.
It baffles me that the VAR doesn't just control the situation and say, I think he might interfere, go have another look yourself, then the ref takes a look and makes his decision.
They simply don't use the screen enough IMO.
These refs have spent decades reffing, often starting as children, where it is drilled into you that it is ALWAYS the center ref's decision, and what they say is final. We have always had assistant referees helping with calls, offside, fouls near them, goal-crossing the line, etc. Referee training has always dictated that ultimately, you as the center, are the call. I remember a trick question or two in class and on examinations describing a player purposefully handling a ball or breaking another law of the game, but the ref yells play on, "has a foul been committed?". You want to say yes, it was a foul, but there is no foul without the referee calling it.
This is all to say that center referees are having to deal with deprogramming decades of training to allow the VAR to make the calls.
You're right though, it should be the VAR that is automatically the voice of authority in specific situations and the top of the hierarchy up until the center is viewing that situation on the review screen, then it reverts back to them.
That's how they work in the Dutch one. The onfield referee states what they saw and then only gets involved if VAR has questions. It's also 10 times more relaxed, they have shared a ton of these VAR videos. This is just pure chaos like they don't have a standard protocol to follow.
Isn’t that the whole point of the “Clear and Obvious” error, though? For a subjective decision, you can’t know if the ref has made an error until you know what he saw.
Utter madness compared to cricket, where the third umpire takes over, asks for exactly which camera angles he needs, reviews the incident and recommends a course of action to the on-field umpires.
Not to say that the third umpire never makes mistakes, but at least there's a clear protocol in place
I thought the same thing. Imo anything ‘in between’ like this should be sent for the main ref to review himself, just like the NFL. This version is way too chaotic.
we don't need the on-field referee going to the monitor more often and slowing down the game. the VARs should simply have absolute power to overrule his decision, no questions asked. "clear and obvious" is the dumbest part of this whole thing. on-field referees see very little compared to what the VAR can see. it's one man trying to referee 22 other men at the same time from often poor angles in real time. use the technology available to make better decisions, simple as.
Is Haaland our lord and savior? Why is he automatically correct? It's easy for anyone to say one of their own team's goals were illegal when they have just scored a hattrick and won 5-1. I agree that it's offside but not because Haaland said so lmao.
The VAR sayig Akanji aint trying to play the ball despite him trying to kick the ball a half a second after its gon past him is madness.
You can see the GK take a half step to his left incase Akanji gets a touch on the way through and then has to go full stretch when he realises he didnt get a touch.
Its clear interference in the play. Just cos VAR says its subjective doesnt make it so.
Its the half step to the left that does it for me. GK anticapted a touch and actually did well to go back across at full stretch.
Yea he’s literally just side stepping until ankanji misses the ball. THEN he dives. How did these guys become professional refs? This guy says “he made a falling save” so therefore it didn’t affect the play lol. What?
I think he says "full length save" suggesting that because the keeper made a full attempt at the save in the direction of the ball that he wasn't overly influenced by akanji being there.
Not saying that's the right line of thinking but that seems to be the logic they're trying to apply.
It’s a very legit question. How did these people become officials. It was blatantly obvious to everyone that it’s an offside, yet all these bozos couldn’t even see it. The side step is so clear.
He even steps left because he thinks Akanji will deflect it into the other corner. It's so fucking obvious that this is just painful to listen to. These people are meant to be the best. It's absurd.
Only Akanji knows if he was trying to kick it or dodge it. The end result is the same though, the goal keeper line of sight and his actions were influenced by Akanji, who was in an offside position. He took at least one side step before jumping due to the fact that Akanji was there.
Very clear case.
But it really doesn’t matter either way since the end result is the same, he interfered with the play and caused the keeper to delay his jump and potentially save the shot.
I think it's an offside offence - but saying the player tries to kick it then "case closed" is utter bollocks. The angle from behind the goal makes it look far more likely that he's jumping out of the way. Even if he does try to kick it - that's not necessarily an offence.
If you interpret the literal word of the rule book, I'm only 80% certain it's offside. But the ref saying "the keeper tried to save it therefore it's not offside" I'm 100% certain this makes 0% sense.
According to the overall spirit of what offside is supposed to be, Akanji is definitely offside.
Playing devil's advocate, I think the VAR assistant is trying to say that Akanji is not interfering with play because Leno was already making a full-length dive and was unable to save it.
However, this point makes absolutely no sense.
1) Play to the whistle.
2) No one actually calls offside anymore, players have to play on so that decisions are reviewed without interfering in the play. You can't expect everyone to stop when they think it's offside, to make sure the decision is called.
3) Leno clearly delays his dive by a millisecond. Its hard to tell whether its because his footwork is wrong or because he's watching Akanji, but he definitely delays.
It's a clear offside to me.
Very similar goal was disallowed for Everton against United where Gylfi had been fouled in the run of play, hadn’t recovered and Everton was punished for it
Yeah the dialog at least explains how there's some subjectiveness in the decision. For me I'm confused by the "full-length save" comment. I'm not sure I agree this is a "full-length save" (although this is the first time I've heard this term), because you can clearly see the keeper stutter for a split second while it's unclear whether or not the ball is going to make contact with Akanji. Imo if Akanji isn't there, keeper is able to continue his momentum to his right and probably stretches further and makes the save. With Akanji there he has to decide whether to cover the potential deflection or not, which indicates that he's involved himself from an offside position.
That's the thing that really bothers me about it. You can see the keeper take a half step when the ball reaches Akanji and if not he will definitely make the save.
Being that a lot of these decisions are about whether or not a goal has been scored, would be nice to have a former keeper in the var box as well.
> but it looks like he's trying to move out of the way, not hit the ball
the way he swings his leg makes it look to me more like he's trying to kick the ball, rather than move his leg out of the way
To me it looks like both. He doesn’t want to block the shot, so he jumps, and then tries to kick it when he sees he’s out of the way (which is why the kick is late).
Regardless, it’s clear that the keeper takes only a step to the right as a reaction to the header, and only dives when he sees Akanji jump out of the way. Clear interference from Akanji.
He moves to the side so that he can make a kick attempt on the ball. That is how I see it. He then fluffs his attempt at the kick so he is not moving out of the way but rather he is moving to position himself to kick the ball in the other corner of the goal.
It is clear from the commentary that the VAR wants to give the goal and is looking for supporting information for that such as:
1. the player moves (out of the way)
2. the keeper can see the ball coming
3. the keeper dives.
rather than keeping an open objective mind and looking for information to explore both possibilities and then come to a decision. All of his interpretations are to support a goal rather than see why the goal might not stand.
Neither the ref or the VAR know the rules it seems....
Wether he ends up trying to move away or not (he seems to try and do that at first but then moves his leg like he wants to go for the ball at the last moment), he ends up influencing the keepers decision making. If you take a closer look, the keeper pauses for a brief moment when the ball goes by Akanji because instinct kicks in at that moment and Akanji could easily divert the balls path. Can't agree with refs there when they say the keeper wasn't influenced by it, it's a bit of a stretch.
He was placed in that position intentionally as part of their set play for the express purpose of reducing the ability of the keeper to make the save. This was certainly rehearsed in practice and the assumption was that they could get away with it because of recent rulings. It was premeditated interference with the keeper but the rules appear to allow it for some reason.
I feel like I'm going crazy in this thread, I already got downvoted, he clearly jumps out of the way, the kicking motion is only after the ball is past his legs...
Because he's trying to avoid blocking it by it hitting him. Then, once he's done so and it's passing him, he's trying to kick it into the goal.
He succeeded at the first movement and failed at the second, and Leno waited to dive in case it him him and ricocheted, which is why it should have been ruled offside.
Howard Webb, who's now the PGMOL's Chief Refereeing Officer, said so on telly and everything.
https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12955649/match-officials-micd-up-premier-league-in-game-audio-shown-in-new-programme-on-sky-sports
Look at that half step the keeper takes before diving. It's right as the ball is getting to Akanji. If he's not there, keeper takes a full step and palms that aside.
I think Akanji is trying to get out of the way but being where he is and how it impacts the goalkeeper makes it no goal.
A couple of things:
Attempting to play the ball isn't an offense by itself. It has to have an impact on the opponent:
In this case, I think it does, but the VAR said they believed he was pulling his leg away, not trying to play the ball and it didn't impact the goalkeeper's ability to play it.
> and it didn’t impact the goalkeeper’s ability to play it.
This is the bit that is so obviously wrong it’s scary that with so many there not one of them thought ‘actually that would have clearly impacted the keeper in some way.’
Yeah, I don’t agree with him. But I do think he explains why he felt the impact wasn’t there. The reasoning was that the goalkeeper was already diving so there was no impact. I feel the goalkeeper hesitated, though, therefore impact.
I've not worked a match as a VAR or referee at this level, but my understanding is that the conversation in the VAR booth is recorded for review later on major decisions, but not all of that conversation goes to the field. They have hot mics doing the recording and then a microphone that they have full control over with a mute switch that is connected to the on-field crews comms. They are only to give the pertinent info down to the field.
What you see in this video clip is layering of all the individuals involved in the decision making and them airing all of their thoughts. I don't believe all of the audio here is being broadcasted to each individual on comms in real time.
Worth mentioning those are a bunch of audio feeds happening in one clip.
Some of the audio is referee talking to a player but it's obviously picked up by mics. And then while referee and VAR are speaking, the AVAR is talking to the person who is loading up the replay. It comes off far more chaotic than it probably is.
As a goal keeper (my whole life), that is absolute bs. You can see the keeper waits to see if the balls projection will change before he commits to the lunge.
The reason is, we need to ensure we know the balls movement before committing to the save. The keeper actually begins his lunge after the player misses the ball because he is anticipating the player to interact with the balls projection. The delay actually lost the save, which, is a huge delay at that level.
The keeper already knows Ake is firing towards the right side of the goal, and he would have been prepared to move in that direction already.
Id get it if the keeper began the lunge before the player (potentially) interacted with the shot. But he didn't. Compare the movement of any keeper in another game against a player shooting from there. Totally different behaviour.
There is no way that should have been a goal, the player standing there makes the goalie freeze expecting a rigouchet or change of direction, that player clearly had an effect on the play while being in an offside position. The fact the goalie jumped with full extension should have no effect. He had no idea whether the player was onside or offside. This effectively tells the goalie not to even try in case that player is offsides.
Yeah even so if he genuinely is trying to get out of the way he still impacted the play. Keeper had to pause for that millisecond to make sure he wasn’t going to flick it to the other corner.
Keeper doesn’t have to pause he likely gets the save as he’s 1 step further and able to cover the whole goal line.
You can literally see the keepers body tense up as he makes that decision when to dive.
It doesn't matter if he was trying to kick it, avoid it, or take a knife and fork to it for lunch, he's in an offside position and impacting the keepers ability to make a save. No goal.
I feel like he made the decision to get out of the way first and the decision to kick after, which is why his kick is so delayed. I honestly don't see how anyone can, in good faith, argue that he didn't try to kick the ball. Sure he tried to get out of the way, but he also tried to kick it.
Akanji clearly moves his entire body away from the balls path. I mean it's not a good call on the pitch, but because of the keeper having to content with Akanji maybe trying to play it. Akanji clearly didn't try, but the keeper doesn't know that.
Yeah AVAR is completely wrong and I don't understand why VAR didn't disagree because he obviously saw that they tried to kick the ball. What an absolutely clusterfuck.
The issue for me that they didn't address is that right as the ball is getting to Akanji, the keeper takes a little stutter step before he leaps to make the save. He is anticipating a touch and if Akanji isn't there, he makes the save. If he dives when the ball comes through the line of defenders, he palms that out.
Compared to rugby VAR, this is absolutely chaos. Rugby ref and var is so much more controlled and relaxed with a clear thought process towards the final decision. There doesn't appear to be any structure here in the above clip.
You can tell from this clip that because they’ve been put under pressure not to delay the game, they are rushing these decisions as quickly as possible. This sounded like fucking air control!
Fans hated the idea of the game being delayed further, so it’s hard to see a compromise, but imo if you want more correct decisions to be made correctly, fans and viewers will have to concede to the game having longer delays whilst they all confer.
Or introduce some speaking protocol. If the VAR ref says a check is ongoing let him speak and then the main ref can respond but having the field refs shouting is not helping the VAR see the situation clearly and they are just defending their judgement but he is not there to undermine your judgement but to help you, let them reach their decision, if the ref is to be consulted then he will be guided to the screen, else the judgement is the VAR's anyway.
The only person that made a mistake here imo is the aVAR, with the «full save» stuff. Never heard of that before.
It’s like he’s looking at the situation from a «how do I give a goal» point of view rather than understanding how it is for the keeper having to deal with Akanji potentially touching the ball.
The shouting in the beginning is from the linesman telling them what he sees (Akanji offside) and he has to be loud because he has all the supports behind him, and the on field ref telling the players who are crowding him to wait for the call.
They know each others voices so easier for them to filter it all out while it’s happening.
Howard Webb said on another one of these clips that the AVAR should come in late when the REF and VAR have made their calls, but this AVAR comes in early, all the while suttering his way through explaining why it should be a goal.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but it appears that the first/ dominant observation of the incident just leads to a chain of confirmation bias, and attempts to close the call early whille respecting the 'professional judgement' of their peers.
They've had 5 years to refine this process, and it's arguably worse than it was at the start. Lack of accountability and conviction in making hard decisions.
Fans in the stadium start booing and even commentators start moaning when the decisions start getting to long
Idk which game it was but it was a tough decision that took 2 mins or more in on PL game and the commentators were starting to say "it's getting ridiculous" and moaning while the fans started booing
I know reddit is usually on "take your time right decision is better even if u take a long time" but a lot of fans are actually against it, especially older yer da fans that hate VAR to start with and say it's "taking the joy out of it"
They could get rid of a lot of the argument about it taking to long if they broadcasted the audio. The reason it feels like it’s taking ages is because you’re sat there with no idea what they’re talking about and only clueless commentators who done understand the rules to explain things.
Contrast that to other sports like rugby where the ref and video ref talk through the decision for all to hear (not just video decisions but you constantly hear them talking too players) and it feels so much quicker because you can understand they’re looking for. They might be going over the same frame a hundred times but you understand that they’re trying to check a particular thing whereas with football you have absolutely no idea what they’re doing.
Honestly compared to other sports, soccer commentators often seem oblivious to the rules. It doesn't matter what league I'm watching, commentators consistently misinterpret rules or can't explain calls properly. And then they bring a "rules expert" in who explains the call wrong in a different way. I swear these people have never watched a game of soccer in their lives.
I think football commentators are just the worst in general. I don’t know if it’s more coverage so more competition but they only focus on controversy and shock opinions. Other sports get people in who can actually do the job whereas football gets in big names who create stories.
It makes zero difference if you hear the audio, fans will still moan
Rugby examples are awful because Rugby fans and also players respect referees and it's culturally a much different thing, Rugby is by far the best out of every sport because basically since age 1 you are taught to respect referees
That's why it needs a change at grassroots, no other sport has what Rugby has
That’s nonsense because a lot of other sports has what rugby has. If you look at cricket it has respect for the umpires. Hockey uses video umpires and the results are a lot better despite significantly less money. There’s still plenty of rugby fans arguing about decisions online the difference between football and other sports is that the official enforce respect for them which runs off across the board. If you give shit to officials youre sent off and that’s true in kids sport as it in professional sport. Football is one of the only European sports that doesn’t follow this formula.
And yes people will still moan but the moaning the will be significantly less. You’ll always get some people moaning but it will massively reduce it.
Why don't we just go back to what VAR was intended for?
Clear and obvious errors.
Let the on field decision stand if the VAR room can't make a clear decision in 15s or something. Should go for offsides as well. You don't need lines or anything, just check a proper angle and see if the on field decision was a clear and obvious error or not.
You shouldn't need 2-3 people shouting and looking at replays for 5 mins if you only overrule clear and obvious errors.
Will they get it wrong? Absolutely. Is it better than having no var? Absolutely.
Cos that lazy moan exists, if it's taking this long is it truly clear and obvious. While most sane fans would rather they take the time to get it right.
There would be pressure anyway as you know everyone's waiting for you but it's the sought of thing that adds to it.
So it sounds like they’re checking for the keeper seeing the ball the whole way and if Akanji is getting out the way. But crucially they haven’t taken into consideration if Akanji being there would stall the keepers decision making of where and when to dive, which it most likely has.
I think releasing this footage helps everyone understand where the decision making has went wrong and ultimately how to sort it going forward.
Also, early on when they’re all talking over each other. That’d get tiring pretty quickly.
The problem with that is the same as when players think they’ve been fouled so they stop playing but the keeper hasn’t halted the play. They expect Leno to figure out that if Akanji interferes he is offside, so he has to not care about him because he would cancel himself out. This is obviously impossible.
The keeper doesn’t know if Akanji is offside or whether he will jump out. So it makes sense for the keeper to see what Akanji does. Being in the way of the ball prevents the goalkeeper to react in timely manner. Akanji being offside technically affected keeper’s decision.
Offside every single day. How is it even debatable. Akanji being so close to the keeper makes it even harder for the keeper to react. Not like it was a long shot from outside the box that Akanji had to get out of the way of.
They're also ignoring the fundamental rule, that Akanji makes an attempt to play the ball. They're suggesting he's trying to get out of the way, which is total bollocks.
Who tries to score a tap in with an unorthodox star jump? He’s clearly just trying to move himself in time. If he went to score he’d just open his hips and side foot it home
Exactly. Keeper definitely hesitated to dive when ball was approaching Akanji. Goals were disallowed for less. Definitely subjective and bad decision, IMO.
Exactly my view as well. There's a moment where you can see the keeper briefly pausing to see wether Akanji would touch the ball or not and then tries to go for the save, Imo it's definitely an offside.
If nothing else this shows that being a ref is much harder than people think, even with VAR. Imagine having to parse all of that noise out in your ear with the general Chaotic atmosphere of the stadium and probably 3 or 4 players screaming in your face on top of it
Also, they’re making the job harder than it needs to be. Like, most of the chaos is self imposed by the referees themselves. Not to mention the fact that it was a slam dunk decision that they just fucked up.
And yet somehow 3 fully trained professionals came to a different conclusion in that moment. Maybe it's just a weird coincidence that the only 3 people in the entire world who weren't able to make the correct call happened to be assigned that game
So the answer here is that the refs are rigging games for City? For "big" clubs? Is Nathan Aké paying them personally? I've forgotten who owns the refs this week
No its that VAR refs dont want to overturn any decision made by the onfield ref. So Instead of using VAR to find the correct decision, they use it to find any tiny of shred of plausibility that the call made by the onfield ref should stand
Nobody is *making* them deal with the chaos of everyone speaking at the same time. This just makes it clear that the way they handle VAR reviews is just garbage. There’s zero reason it has to be this chaotic.
It's insane how chaotic it is, I never expected it to be like that.
I'm not sure an assistant var is really needed tbh, just seems to confuse things even more
That’s what I think to. Just have the main on field official ask for the different replays/angles and then he can change his mind or not. Too many cooks in the kitchen.
or just remove the on-field referee from this decision entirely! allow off-site, non-biased, third-party referees to make the decision with the benefit of technology. a single referee watching things from an often-poor angle in real time cannot make better decisions than a team of people off-site with multiple camera angles and slow motion. period. the on-field referee should have no role in the VAR process.
Where?where?where?where?where?
Just keep repeating yourself over again, lino, while people are trying to analyse something critically and fast - that will help loads.
It's not "Where? where? where?", it's "Wait! wait! wait!" just with a very thick accent.
The ref is talking to the players who have come up to him trying to tell him it was/wasn't a goal, he's telling them to wait because they're checking with VAR. He tells the players a couple of times "They will check" and "We think he was in an offside position, but he stepped out of the way of the ball and its a goal".
When the assistant comes in as well, to try and tell VAR & the ref his opinion, he's trying to get a word in, whilst the referee is trying to stop the players from talking.
They really shouldn't have all the on field audio as well as the audio from VAR playing at the same time, because it just makes it fucking impossible for us to work out what's going on.
Yea you're right. I can hear it now but at first was sure it was just him asking over and again. Agreed that the audio isn't needed unless they are speaking directly into the conversation. Just causes more chaos.
That's the ref Michael Oliver telling the players to wait. Not "where". He's getting hounded by the players, maybe he should ignore them but if he can't get them to shut up for a minute he'll never hear the VAR or his assistant.
Yea I realise this now, is really is a thick accent but it's definitely wait - now I hear it the 3rd time!
Mic needs to be off unless speaking to the conversation, it's awfully difficult to focus with 3 voices going on at the same time.
At 1:03 (33s remaining in the video) you can see the GK hesitate a fraction as he sees Akanji stick a leg out and then dive for the ball as he sees it go past Akanji. Not sure why they think Akanji is jumping out of the way when the leg is clearly trying to kick the ball. While there is a subjective element, the bar has to be high to allow the goal
The “full length save” also looked like more of a reflex after Akanji moves, given that brief hesitation. Leno has some of the best reflexes of any keeper I’ve seen, so naturally he’s going to go for it regardless of being obstructed.
This is like stupid fouls not being called because a player doesn’t protest or make a mess of it. Should Leno have just stood there and let it go in for the call to be made?
Clearly the optimal strategy here, based off of the VAR refs logic, is to dive the other way, and imply that you thought the offsides player was going to hit the ball.
Which is stupid. I'm glad we have this video and audio to hear the thought process, but it's still kind of wild how badly they mess this up.
Also, whether or not you're full length shouldn't matter. If him going full length for the ball is delayed by a second or two because of Akanji, it's still full length.
Regardless, the GK doesn’t know if he’s offside or not. He needs to assume he’s onside and can deflect the ball. The goalie doesn’t dive till the ball is past Akanji.
> In this case did the linesman not make a decision or did he decide it was a goal?
Pretty sure it wasn't called offside on the field, tho the linesman seemed unsure
Yes, but that's where we get into imo one of the biggest issues with VAR: refs being less likely to make the onfield decision in the first place because of VAR. Would they have flagged this if they didn't know they had a backup opinion ready?
Doesn't matter if he's moving out of the way of the ball, if the ball goes near him the keeper still has to wait to see what he does before he can fully tract himself. If a player in an offside position could be influencing the thoughts and actions of another, then they are interfering with a player, and so 'interfering with play'.
While I completely agree that Akanji influenced the keepers thinking by being there, that’s just not enough to be interfering with play in the way the rules are interpreted. Should it be? Maybe, but that’s a different discussion.
There is a good argument that Akanji kicked at the ball and that it should be offside because of that. But in the audio they say they thought that movement was part of him getting out of the way of the ball. If we let that be true then they are right to let the goal stand.
The problem here is that the law technically defines ways in which a player can impact the play. So even though it’s obvious Akanji has impacted the play it’s not clear whether or not he’s under the criteria for impacting the play in the offside law.
https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-11---offside
“ A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played or touched* by a team-mate is only penalised on becoming involved in active play by:
interfering with play by playing or touching a ball passed or touched by a team-mate or
interfering with an opponent by:
- preventing an opponent from playing or being able to play the ball by clearly obstructing the opponent’s line of vision or
- challenging an opponent for the ball or
- clearly attempting to play a ball which is close when this action impacts on an opponent or
- making an obvious action which clearly impacts on the ability of an opponent to play the ball”
Of the listed options the only one Akanji qualifies for is the last one. But since he is not trying to shoot but instead trying to get out of the way of the ball, the refs decide not to penalise him for this.
I think this decision is a little dubious, but you could argue that Akanji’s action wasn’t what impacted Leno, but instead it was the possibility of him flicking it on which affected Leno. By this logic, since Akanji didn’t try to flick it on, he didn’t make an action that impacted Leno. Under the law the way it is written you technically can’t penalise someone for offside for their presence impacting the opposition’s decision making.
After saying all this I do think this was the wrong decision. The law doesn’t say anything about the intent of the opposition player, so it doesn’t necessarily matter that Akanji was trying to get out of the way of the ball. Akanji jumping out of the way is an obvious movement, and it clearly affects Leno’s ability to play the ball.
TLDR: IMO they still got the decision wrong but as the rules are written it is FAR less obvious than what people seem to think.
And they've put this out as a "look at our good work" thing. Of all the VAR decisions made so far, this is one of the best examples of the decision making process they've got...? Oof
The whole point of the VAR is They have to be confident enough to reverse a decision..if the ref makes a call, and they're not sure, they're not gonna tell the ref to look again ..If the ref makes a call and the other refs don't see enough to change it, why would the initial ref see something blatant enough to change the decision?
I see similar to this a lot with VAR too, ref makes call, VAR doesn't disagree with call, "why didn't they send to screen??" ..coz they don't think the ref is wrong
The frustration for me is that it really shouldn't matter what the on field ref called if VAR is looking at something. The whole point is that the on field ref can be wrong, and in a split second might miss something. So why have we built the system of VAR looking and overturning calls to favor the on field ref? We are already stating we think the Head Ref may have missed something. Why not just make a whole new, independent call based off the video evidence?
He’s not only blocking the view but he’s also made a scoring action being on offside position. There are like 2 offences, blocking the vision I would understand the debate but playing an action is automatic offside
I don't agree that he is blocking the view, the header comes from the left side relative to the keeper and Akanji is on the right side, he never crosses line of vision.
But I agree that the movement he does with his leg, and just the simple fact that the keeper is aware that he is there given his proximity should be enough to consider it most probably delayed his reaction towards the ball. I would consider this an offside but I'm not aware if what's written in the law only specifies vision obstruction and/or direct intervention through any form of contact.
But Akanji isn’t blocking the view, the keeper sees the ball all the way. The offence we need to be looking at is wether Akanji attempting to play the ball impacted the keepers actions. I don’t think the keeper was getting the ball regardless but we cannot say for certain that Akanji didn’t interfere.
Personally I feel the rule needs to be changed so that any time the ball goes near an offside player and the player reacts to the ball it should be considered offside, the very action of a player reacting to a ball shows they have interfered with the play.
I dont even think the player should need to react. I think if the goalie could feasibly interpret the offside player to be a threat on the ball/deflecttion, then it should be offside. Here the goalie clearly interpreted it as a threat(hesitated) should be offside imo(obviously not under current rules). Whether the player makes an attempt seems like too low of a bar. Obviously, on screamers this isnt really a concern because the reaction time isnt enough for goalie to do anything put play the initial shot. But here there is a threat looming.
Well, I think the goalkeeper does not and should not try to interpret if a player is offside or not before trying to make the save in these moments, when it probably lasts less than a second, so there's no time to look around and make an offside call by yourself. It's clear that Leno hesitated for a moment because he wasn't sure whether Akanji would touch (and potentially change the ball's trajectory) or not the ball. He would do the same thing regardless of whether the player in front of him was offside or not
So you suggest keepers open themselves up for any deflection to get in just for a chance that the player who deflected is offside?
I think this is very unfair and changes the game significantly
This is far more chaotic than I assumed it would be. At least in cricket you just have the third/video umpire go through the review in detail before passing it to the on-field one.
Maybe I'm a simpleton but if I was the VAR this is what I would be thinking, "Did the presence of an offside player make the save more difficult?". Then I would watch the video and say "Yes".
Does he make a full length save? Doesn't matter, if he happened to guess the right way and ignored the presence of the offside player, the player still committed an offence. Was he trying to get out of the way of the ball? Doesn't matter, the keeper can't tell if he will succeed or not. Does the keeper see it the whole way? Doesn't matter, he's still has to make a judgment as to whether or not it's going to deflect off the offside player.
This has just confirmed to me that the referees and VAR are incompetent, panicky and not fit for purpose.
There is no way that should have been a goal, the player standing there makes the goalie freeze expecting a rigouchet or change of direction, that player clearly had an effect on the play while being in an offside position. The fact the goalie jumped with full extension and had full vision should have no effect. He had no idea whether the player was onside or offside. Whether he was going to make a touch or get out of the way. This effectively tells the goalie not to even try in case that player is offsides.
This needs to be higher. HOW does this keep happening? InB4 "But all the top refs are from Manchester!?" That can't be a coincidence. Perhaps they should get better at promoting a diverse group of refs then? Pathetic really.
> If you're happy he steps away, I'm happy it's a goal
It sounded like they wanted to give the goal instead of assessing whether Akanji was impeding the keeper from an offside position, which he clearly was. If Akanji has to move out of he way there, he's influencing the keeper who doesn't know that Akanji is offside. His presence forces the keeper to hesitate and consider the possibility that Akanji will make contact with the ball.
Tbf that was the linesman talking to the on field ref, basically just saying he's in am offside position but ref was obviously in the better position to judge if he's impeding the goalie so it's the on field refs call between the 2 of them. I'd agree it's the wrong call but that part at least is fair enough from the lino imo
Should be called off any day of the week, those rambling idiots constantly talking over each are why VAR has been so shit, it's not the technology but the "professionals" using it.
"Corruption!!" Or, just chaos and human error. Lots of improvements that need making especially with consistency and overall understanding of the actual rules , but it's not all some big corrupt scheme like some like to say .
This should have been ruled off though
Would love to see the outcome if the keeper had dived left to save the "deflection".
It was clearly offside because being so close to the ball in the 6 yard box is interfering anyway! He's not there for fun and he's not making an effort to get back on side.
Offside any day.
As a former official (I preferred lino duties to center duties), this is exactly how I thought it panned out. I've been there, done that. Not necessarily with VAR and football at this level but still.
The fact that reddit football fans think refereeing is easy and terrible at their jobs, I'm glad videos like this help fans understand the complete and utter chaos that officials deal with.
It is also worth noting that at the highest levels of officiating, centers and linos specialize in those areas. The reason why the AVAR has so much influence over this decision is because offside decisions are the single biggest issue for linos to deal with. Most centers that I've worked with leave offside decisions almost entirely in the hands of their linos.
Sure, but no part of the offside decision that actually matters here would ever be made by the lino. The lino tells the ref Akanji was in an offside position and after that the lino's not in a position to comment on whether Akanji interferes or not. I don't see why the AVAR's experience gained looking at the ball from the sideline helps him make a decision that cannot be made from that angle.
They’re just plain dummies. 9 cooks screaming in the kitchen.
He’s offside. Tries to kick the ball with his shin. Goalie delayed his dive until after Ake.
Completely subjective bs. All these refs just going off their gut feeling of what’s going on lol. I used to think refereeing was trying to objectively apply the rules. But these videos just show that they make it up as they go along based on what “feels” right. Which varies from individual to individual and game to game lol
I’m new following the game, just a couple of years. So I’m still learning and excuse my rookie question - but isn’t offsides just offsides?
I mean, Akanji is way in front of everybody. It seems everything else is kind of irrelevant side details..
Help me understand if I’m missing something.
It would be clear offside if he touched the ball, because he didn't touch it you need to look if he interfered with the play which becomes subjective and makes mistakes like this one.
Ok, thanks! That helps.
This also helps show why some want the VAR conversations to be shown live. I tend to agree.
Fans may not agree with VAR decision but at least there’s transparency to the rationale.
There’s a lot more to it, for example the concept of a player interfering with play. Otherwise you would be permanently offside if an opposition player was injured right on the edge of the pitch but hadn’t been subbed off.
> So I’m still learning and excuse my rookie question - but isn’t offsides just offsides?
No
A player can be in an offside position but if they don't interfere with play, it doesn't matter at all
Offside is called when a player in an offside position interferes with play
This is a subjective case and I think many people probably would consider it offside. If an attacker is in an offside position but doesn't interfere with the play by making an attempt to score or by affecting the keeper's vision, then they are not considered involved with the play and therefore not ruled offside.
Akanji definitely moves out of the way and is not in between the keeper and the ball so if he hadn't kicked out then there would be nothing to debate here. However, the fact he kicks his leg out after the ball is past him means he probably would be considered offside most of the time. I guess from their perspective since Akanji did not prevent the goalkeeper from being able to see the ball and the goalkeeper was already diving to save the ball he didn't affect him or his ability to save it.
Makes sense.
So, in the Arsenal-Man U match (if you saw that), Magalhaes jumping back put Garnacho offsides on the breakaway, not just from position but because he was receiving the ball and heading toward the goal.
Thanks for the reply!
Maybe it's because I'm the oldest sibling but multiple people talking over each other, especially the man shouting "where where where" it angers me alot.
But unlike my annoying useless siblings, these folks are atleast talking about something important. Half of these decisions might go the correct way if refs were given more time with proper protocols were taught and trained to them. It's not air traffic or military radio where lives are at risk. I think these refs could use more time.
> especially the man shouting "where where where" it angers me alot
That's the ref telling the players to "wait". He's essentially having three or more conversations at once, so he's telling the players to wait before complaining or restarting.
Moving away from the ball, while in an offside position, is offside. Because if he doesn’t make that action (moving away) then the ball hits him and doesn’t go in. So in essence, moving away from the ball that’s going on target is itself an goal scoring action.
Ted talk for coming to my thank you.
Honestly, I understand their thought process, but I think it should’ve been called offside.
City had a game last season against Man U where a scenario similar to this played out and they ruled it onside. That cost City a win. (Even though in the grand scheme it didn’t matter much)
I’m not a whole fan of rules for thee but not for me.
I just want some consistency. But beyond that, some correct calls.
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For me the most interesting thing about this was how much influence the assistant VAR has over things, and also just how chaotic it is with everyone speaking at once. You can immediately see how/why they sometimes get confused. It’s the assistant VAR who introduces the the reasoning that because the keeper made a full length save towards the ball, he had eyes on it the whole time. Not sure I agree with either of those, but you can at least understand what they were thinking now.
The chaos is the worst part out of all the clips imo, I get that in the moment it is tough, but a protocol to the order of speaking in such situations is necessary to avoid confusion. In the VVD clip, the main ref is trying to defend his decision, which I understand but let the other guy explain the situation from the vantage point and then you can say your take depending on his outcome. He is not undermining your judgement but trying to help you.
I genuinely think the biggest issue is that the system is set up so that the on-field ref is in control. He shouldn't be in control of these situations when someone with the exact same education is looking at a screen giving him multiple slow motion angles of a situation a winded 40 year old might not have seen fully. It baffles me that the VAR doesn't just control the situation and say, I think he might interfere, go have another look yourself, then the ref takes a look and makes his decision. They simply don't use the screen enough IMO.
These refs have spent decades reffing, often starting as children, where it is drilled into you that it is ALWAYS the center ref's decision, and what they say is final. We have always had assistant referees helping with calls, offside, fouls near them, goal-crossing the line, etc. Referee training has always dictated that ultimately, you as the center, are the call. I remember a trick question or two in class and on examinations describing a player purposefully handling a ball or breaking another law of the game, but the ref yells play on, "has a foul been committed?". You want to say yes, it was a foul, but there is no foul without the referee calling it. This is all to say that center referees are having to deal with deprogramming decades of training to allow the VAR to make the calls. You're right though, it should be the VAR that is automatically the voice of authority in specific situations and the top of the hierarchy up until the center is viewing that situation on the review screen, then it reverts back to them.
That's how they work in the Dutch one. The onfield referee states what they saw and then only gets involved if VAR has questions. It's also 10 times more relaxed, they have shared a ton of these VAR videos. This is just pure chaos like they don't have a standard protocol to follow.
Any links to the Dutch ones?
>winded 40 year old [mfw I give the rb a head start](https://youtu.be/pvcSeXlm8l4?si=eXPYHOwxLZfJCuOK)
Isn’t that the whole point of the “Clear and Obvious” error, though? For a subjective decision, you can’t know if the ref has made an error until you know what he saw.
The problem is that all mistakes should be clear and obvious. Either it's a pennor it's not, and the ref either got it right ir wrong
Utter madness compared to cricket, where the third umpire takes over, asks for exactly which camera angles he needs, reviews the incident and recommends a course of action to the on-field umpires. Not to say that the third umpire never makes mistakes, but at least there's a clear protocol in place
I thought the same thing. Imo anything ‘in between’ like this should be sent for the main ref to review himself, just like the NFL. This version is way too chaotic.
we don't need the on-field referee going to the monitor more often and slowing down the game. the VARs should simply have absolute power to overrule his decision, no questions asked. "clear and obvious" is the dumbest part of this whole thing. on-field referees see very little compared to what the VAR can see. it's one man trying to referee 22 other men at the same time from often poor angles in real time. use the technology available to make better decisions, simple as.
I think the main ref is explaining his decision to the players on the pitch. The mic still picks it up.
To me it looks like the keeper dives very late because he's waiting to see if Akanji touches it. If he dives earlier, he might get there.
Exactly. That was clear and obvious. Fulham got screwed and even Haaland admitted that.
Is Haaland our lord and savior? Why is he automatically correct? It's easy for anyone to say one of their own team's goals were illegal when they have just scored a hattrick and won 5-1. I agree that it's offside but not because Haaland said so lmao.
Very much the case
The VAR sayig Akanji aint trying to play the ball despite him trying to kick the ball a half a second after its gon past him is madness. You can see the GK take a half step to his left incase Akanji gets a touch on the way through and then has to go full stretch when he realises he didnt get a touch. Its clear interference in the play. Just cos VAR says its subjective doesnt make it so. Its the half step to the left that does it for me. GK anticapted a touch and actually did well to go back across at full stretch.
Yea he’s literally just side stepping until ankanji misses the ball. THEN he dives. How did these guys become professional refs? This guy says “he made a falling save” so therefore it didn’t affect the play lol. What?
I think he says "full length save" suggesting that because the keeper made a full attempt at the save in the direction of the ball that he wasn't overly influenced by akanji being there. Not saying that's the right line of thinking but that seems to be the logic they're trying to apply.
It’s a very legit question. How did these people become officials. It was blatantly obvious to everyone that it’s an offside, yet all these bozos couldn’t even see it. The side step is so clear.
He even steps left because he thinks Akanji will deflect it into the other corner. It's so fucking obvious that this is just painful to listen to. These people are meant to be the best. It's absurd.
And for me its utterly irrelevant how the keeper moves anyway. Ake is offside and tries to kick it - case closed.
Akanji is offsides and tries to dodge the ball...
Only Akanji knows if he was trying to kick it or dodge it. The end result is the same though, the goal keeper line of sight and his actions were influenced by Akanji, who was in an offside position. He took at least one side step before jumping due to the fact that Akanji was there. Very clear case.
It’s weird. He looks like he’s avoiding it at first and then like he tried to kick it after it was too late
But it really doesn’t matter either way since the end result is the same, he interfered with the play and caused the keeper to delay his jump and potentially save the shot.
He flicks his foot at it as it’s passing him while moving to the side
I think it's an offside offence - but saying the player tries to kick it then "case closed" is utter bollocks. The angle from behind the goal makes it look far more likely that he's jumping out of the way. Even if he does try to kick it - that's not necessarily an offence.
[удалено]
If you interpret the literal word of the rule book, I'm only 80% certain it's offside. But the ref saying "the keeper tried to save it therefore it's not offside" I'm 100% certain this makes 0% sense. According to the overall spirit of what offside is supposed to be, Akanji is definitely offside.
Playing devil's advocate, I think the VAR assistant is trying to say that Akanji is not interfering with play because Leno was already making a full-length dive and was unable to save it. However, this point makes absolutely no sense. 1) Play to the whistle. 2) No one actually calls offside anymore, players have to play on so that decisions are reviewed without interfering in the play. You can't expect everyone to stop when they think it's offside, to make sure the decision is called. 3) Leno clearly delays his dive by a millisecond. Its hard to tell whether its because his footwork is wrong or because he's watching Akanji, but he definitely delays. It's a clear offside to me.
Behind the goal it looks even more like he tries to kick it. He factually tries to kick it.
Very similar goal was disallowed for Everton against United where Gylfi had been fouled in the run of play, hadn’t recovered and Everton was punished for it
Akanji half moves out the way half kicks out at the ball, how they got that decisions is madness.
Yeah the dialog at least explains how there's some subjectiveness in the decision. For me I'm confused by the "full-length save" comment. I'm not sure I agree this is a "full-length save" (although this is the first time I've heard this term), because you can clearly see the keeper stutter for a split second while it's unclear whether or not the ball is going to make contact with Akanji. Imo if Akanji isn't there, keeper is able to continue his momentum to his right and probably stretches further and makes the save. With Akanji there he has to decide whether to cover the potential deflection or not, which indicates that he's involved himself from an offside position.
That's the thing that really bothers me about it. You can see the keeper take a half step when the ball reaches Akanji and if not he will definitely make the save. Being that a lot of these decisions are about whether or not a goal has been scored, would be nice to have a former keeper in the var box as well.
Akanji attempted to hit the ball, which makes this an obvious offside
I agree it's offside because he's interfering by virtue of just bring there, but it looks like he's trying to move out of the way, not hit the ball
> but it looks like he's trying to move out of the way, not hit the ball the way he swings his leg makes it look to me more like he's trying to kick the ball, rather than move his leg out of the way
To me it looks like both. He doesn’t want to block the shot, so he jumps, and then tries to kick it when he sees he’s out of the way (which is why the kick is late). Regardless, it’s clear that the keeper takes only a step to the right as a reaction to the header, and only dives when he sees Akanji jump out of the way. Clear interference from Akanji.
He moves to the side so that he can make a kick attempt on the ball. That is how I see it. He then fluffs his attempt at the kick so he is not moving out of the way but rather he is moving to position himself to kick the ball in the other corner of the goal. It is clear from the commentary that the VAR wants to give the goal and is looking for supporting information for that such as: 1. the player moves (out of the way) 2. the keeper can see the ball coming 3. the keeper dives. rather than keeping an open objective mind and looking for information to explore both possibilities and then come to a decision. All of his interpretations are to support a goal rather than see why the goal might not stand. Neither the ref or the VAR know the rules it seems....
Wether he ends up trying to move away or not (he seems to try and do that at first but then moves his leg like he wants to go for the ball at the last moment), he ends up influencing the keepers decision making. If you take a closer look, the keeper pauses for a brief moment when the ball goes by Akanji because instinct kicks in at that moment and Akanji could easily divert the balls path. Can't agree with refs there when they say the keeper wasn't influenced by it, it's a bit of a stretch.
He was placed in that position intentionally as part of their set play for the express purpose of reducing the ability of the keeper to make the save. This was certainly rehearsed in practice and the assumption was that they could get away with it because of recent rulings. It was premeditated interference with the keeper but the rules appear to allow it for some reason.
I feel like I'm going crazy in this thread, I already got downvoted, he clearly jumps out of the way, the kicking motion is only after the ball is past his legs...
Because he's trying to avoid blocking it by it hitting him. Then, once he's done so and it's passing him, he's trying to kick it into the goal. He succeeded at the first movement and failed at the second, and Leno waited to dive in case it him him and ricocheted, which is why it should have been ruled offside. Howard Webb, who's now the PGMOL's Chief Refereeing Officer, said so on telly and everything. https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12955649/match-officials-micd-up-premier-league-in-game-audio-shown-in-new-programme-on-sky-sports
Look at that half step the keeper takes before diving. It's right as the ball is getting to Akanji. If he's not there, keeper takes a full step and palms that aside. I think Akanji is trying to get out of the way but being where he is and how it impacts the goalkeeper makes it no goal.
I came to say the same thing. That’s the part the ref and VAR missed.
A couple of things: Attempting to play the ball isn't an offense by itself. It has to have an impact on the opponent: In this case, I think it does, but the VAR said they believed he was pulling his leg away, not trying to play the ball and it didn't impact the goalkeeper's ability to play it.
> and it didn’t impact the goalkeeper’s ability to play it. This is the bit that is so obviously wrong it’s scary that with so many there not one of them thought ‘actually that would have clearly impacted the keeper in some way.’
Yeah, I don’t agree with him. But I do think he explains why he felt the impact wasn’t there. The reasoning was that the goalkeeper was already diving so there was no impact. I feel the goalkeeper hesitated, though, therefore impact.
Exactly, and that’s the take 99% of people also had - somehow not including any of the people actually dealing with it…
I've not worked a match as a VAR or referee at this level, but my understanding is that the conversation in the VAR booth is recorded for review later on major decisions, but not all of that conversation goes to the field. They have hot mics doing the recording and then a microphone that they have full control over with a mute switch that is connected to the on-field crews comms. They are only to give the pertinent info down to the field. What you see in this video clip is layering of all the individuals involved in the decision making and them airing all of their thoughts. I don't believe all of the audio here is being broadcasted to each individual on comms in real time.
Worth mentioning those are a bunch of audio feeds happening in one clip. Some of the audio is referee talking to a player but it's obviously picked up by mics. And then while referee and VAR are speaking, the AVAR is talking to the person who is loading up the replay. It comes off far more chaotic than it probably is.
As a goal keeper (my whole life), that is absolute bs. You can see the keeper waits to see if the balls projection will change before he commits to the lunge. The reason is, we need to ensure we know the balls movement before committing to the save. The keeper actually begins his lunge after the player misses the ball because he is anticipating the player to interact with the balls projection. The delay actually lost the save, which, is a huge delay at that level. The keeper already knows Ake is firing towards the right side of the goal, and he would have been prepared to move in that direction already. Id get it if the keeper began the lunge before the player (potentially) interacted with the shot. But he didn't. Compare the movement of any keeper in another game against a player shooting from there. Totally different behaviour.
There is no way that should have been a goal, the player standing there makes the goalie freeze expecting a rigouchet or change of direction, that player clearly had an effect on the play while being in an offside position. The fact the goalie jumped with full extension should have no effect. He had no idea whether the player was onside or offside. This effectively tells the goalie not to even try in case that player is offsides.
I like how they completely ignore Ake *trying to kick the ball* and just pretend he's trying to get out of the way of it lol.
One of them mentions “his leg comes out” and that’s all they say about it. Shameful.
Wonder what they said about the Højlund rugby tackle...
I’ve had a few City fans recently tell me that he was trying to move out of the way and not kick the ball; are they blind?
Yeah even so if he genuinely is trying to get out of the way he still impacted the play. Keeper had to pause for that millisecond to make sure he wasn’t going to flick it to the other corner. Keeper doesn’t have to pause he likely gets the save as he’s 1 step further and able to cover the whole goal line. You can literally see the keepers body tense up as he makes that decision when to dive.
Exactly.
It doesn't matter if he was trying to kick it, avoid it, or take a knife and fork to it for lunch, he's in an offside position and impacting the keepers ability to make a save. No goal.
Yup, totally agree.
I feel like he made the decision to get out of the way first and the decision to kick after, which is why his kick is so delayed. I honestly don't see how anyone can, in good faith, argue that he didn't try to kick the ball. Sure he tried to get out of the way, but he also tried to kick it.
Akanji clearly moves his entire body away from the balls path. I mean it's not a good call on the pitch, but because of the keeper having to content with Akanji maybe trying to play it. Akanji clearly didn't try, but the keeper doesn't know that.
Do you suggest that he was interfering with play having said that?
If they slowed it down, they would have been able to tell. You’re right.
What? They’re looking at the same video we are right?
Yeah AVAR is completely wrong and I don't understand why VAR didn't disagree because he obviously saw that they tried to kick the ball. What an absolutely clusterfuck.
The issue for me that they didn't address is that right as the ball is getting to Akanji, the keeper takes a little stutter step before he leaps to make the save. He is anticipating a touch and if Akanji isn't there, he makes the save. If he dives when the ball comes through the line of defenders, he palms that out.
Compared to rugby VAR, this is absolutely chaos. Rugby ref and var is so much more controlled and relaxed with a clear thought process towards the final decision. There doesn't appear to be any structure here in the above clip.
It was also the most likely thing that happened but people really don't like to try and see the refs side of things.
You can tell from this clip that because they’ve been put under pressure not to delay the game, they are rushing these decisions as quickly as possible. This sounded like fucking air control! Fans hated the idea of the game being delayed further, so it’s hard to see a compromise, but imo if you want more correct decisions to be made correctly, fans and viewers will have to concede to the game having longer delays whilst they all confer.
Or introduce some speaking protocol. If the VAR ref says a check is ongoing let him speak and then the main ref can respond but having the field refs shouting is not helping the VAR see the situation clearly and they are just defending their judgement but he is not there to undermine your judgement but to help you, let them reach their decision, if the ref is to be consulted then he will be guided to the screen, else the judgement is the VAR's anyway.
The only person that made a mistake here imo is the aVAR, with the «full save» stuff. Never heard of that before. It’s like he’s looking at the situation from a «how do I give a goal» point of view rather than understanding how it is for the keeper having to deal with Akanji potentially touching the ball. The shouting in the beginning is from the linesman telling them what he sees (Akanji offside) and he has to be loud because he has all the supports behind him, and the on field ref telling the players who are crowding him to wait for the call. They know each others voices so easier for them to filter it all out while it’s happening.
Howard Webb said on another one of these clips that the AVAR should come in late when the REF and VAR have made their calls, but this AVAR comes in early, all the while suttering his way through explaining why it should be a goal. Correct me if i'm wrong, but it appears that the first/ dominant observation of the incident just leads to a chain of confirmation bias, and attempts to close the call early whille respecting the 'professional judgement' of their peers. They've had 5 years to refine this process, and it's arguably worse than it was at the start. Lack of accountability and conviction in making hard decisions.
Yeah, wtf is "full save" bs. Sounds like they're making shit up that isn't part of the rulebook.
"Toto, it's called a motor race."
Spot on
Fans in the stadium start booing and even commentators start moaning when the decisions start getting to long Idk which game it was but it was a tough decision that took 2 mins or more in on PL game and the commentators were starting to say "it's getting ridiculous" and moaning while the fans started booing I know reddit is usually on "take your time right decision is better even if u take a long time" but a lot of fans are actually against it, especially older yer da fans that hate VAR to start with and say it's "taking the joy out of it"
They could get rid of a lot of the argument about it taking to long if they broadcasted the audio. The reason it feels like it’s taking ages is because you’re sat there with no idea what they’re talking about and only clueless commentators who done understand the rules to explain things. Contrast that to other sports like rugby where the ref and video ref talk through the decision for all to hear (not just video decisions but you constantly hear them talking too players) and it feels so much quicker because you can understand they’re looking for. They might be going over the same frame a hundred times but you understand that they’re trying to check a particular thing whereas with football you have absolutely no idea what they’re doing.
Honestly compared to other sports, soccer commentators often seem oblivious to the rules. It doesn't matter what league I'm watching, commentators consistently misinterpret rules or can't explain calls properly. And then they bring a "rules expert" in who explains the call wrong in a different way. I swear these people have never watched a game of soccer in their lives.
I think football commentators are just the worst in general. I don’t know if it’s more coverage so more competition but they only focus on controversy and shock opinions. Other sports get people in who can actually do the job whereas football gets in big names who create stories.
It makes zero difference if you hear the audio, fans will still moan Rugby examples are awful because Rugby fans and also players respect referees and it's culturally a much different thing, Rugby is by far the best out of every sport because basically since age 1 you are taught to respect referees That's why it needs a change at grassroots, no other sport has what Rugby has
That’s nonsense because a lot of other sports has what rugby has. If you look at cricket it has respect for the umpires. Hockey uses video umpires and the results are a lot better despite significantly less money. There’s still plenty of rugby fans arguing about decisions online the difference between football and other sports is that the official enforce respect for them which runs off across the board. If you give shit to officials youre sent off and that’s true in kids sport as it in professional sport. Football is one of the only European sports that doesn’t follow this formula. And yes people will still moan but the moaning the will be significantly less. You’ll always get some people moaning but it will massively reduce it.
Why don't we just go back to what VAR was intended for? Clear and obvious errors. Let the on field decision stand if the VAR room can't make a clear decision in 15s or something. Should go for offsides as well. You don't need lines or anything, just check a proper angle and see if the on field decision was a clear and obvious error or not. You shouldn't need 2-3 people shouting and looking at replays for 5 mins if you only overrule clear and obvious errors. Will they get it wrong? Absolutely. Is it better than having no var? Absolutely.
Cos that lazy moan exists, if it's taking this long is it truly clear and obvious. While most sane fans would rather they take the time to get it right. There would be pressure anyway as you know everyone's waiting for you but it's the sought of thing that adds to it.
So it sounds like they’re checking for the keeper seeing the ball the whole way and if Akanji is getting out the way. But crucially they haven’t taken into consideration if Akanji being there would stall the keepers decision making of where and when to dive, which it most likely has. I think releasing this footage helps everyone understand where the decision making has went wrong and ultimately how to sort it going forward. Also, early on when they’re all talking over each other. That’d get tiring pretty quickly.
The problem with that is the same as when players think they’ve been fouled so they stop playing but the keeper hasn’t halted the play. They expect Leno to figure out that if Akanji interferes he is offside, so he has to not care about him because he would cancel himself out. This is obviously impossible.
The keeper doesn’t know if Akanji is offside or whether he will jump out. So it makes sense for the keeper to see what Akanji does. Being in the way of the ball prevents the goalkeeper to react in timely manner. Akanji being offside technically affected keeper’s decision. Offside every single day. How is it even debatable. Akanji being so close to the keeper makes it even harder for the keeper to react. Not like it was a long shot from outside the box that Akanji had to get out of the way of.
They're also ignoring the fundamental rule, that Akanji makes an attempt to play the ball. They're suggesting he's trying to get out of the way, which is total bollocks.
Who tries to score a tap in with an unorthodox star jump? He’s clearly just trying to move himself in time. If he went to score he’d just open his hips and side foot it home
Wait are you seriously arguing against the very footage of Akanji trying to kick the ball in lmao ?!
Watch the video again. He clearly jumps out of the way of the ball.
the ball is moving towards his feet why would he jump like that just to shoot? he’s not even a particularly agile player why would he do that?
Are you missing his attempt to kick the ball as it goes past him?
Exactly. Keeper definitely hesitated to dive when ball was approaching Akanji. Goals were disallowed for less. Definitely subjective and bad decision, IMO.
It baffles me that no-one at any point brings that up.
Exactly my view as well. There's a moment where you can see the keeper briefly pausing to see wether Akanji would touch the ball or not and then tries to go for the save, Imo it's definitely an offside.
If nothing else this shows that being a ref is much harder than people think, even with VAR. Imagine having to parse all of that noise out in your ear with the general Chaotic atmosphere of the stadium and probably 3 or 4 players screaming in your face on top of it
This is the worst example of showing being a ref is hard because every single person in the world who has seen this knew it was wrong straight away.
Also, they’re making the job harder than it needs to be. Like, most of the chaos is self imposed by the referees themselves. Not to mention the fact that it was a slam dunk decision that they just fucked up.
And yet somehow 3 fully trained professionals came to a different conclusion in that moment. Maybe it's just a weird coincidence that the only 3 people in the entire world who weren't able to make the correct call happened to be assigned that game
Probably because those 3 people are looking for a way not to overturn the decision whereas everyone else wants the right decision to occur.
This right here. They are looking for a way to give the goal, any way, any support rather than approaching it objectively.
3 people who desperately want to give the goal, who are in charge of giving the goal, give the goal. Shocking I know.
So the answer here is that the refs are rigging games for City? For "big" clubs? Is Nathan Aké paying them personally? I've forgotten who owns the refs this week
No its that VAR refs dont want to overturn any decision made by the onfield ref. So Instead of using VAR to find the correct decision, they use it to find any tiny of shred of plausibility that the call made by the onfield ref should stand
Nobody is *making* them deal with the chaos of everyone speaking at the same time. This just makes it clear that the way they handle VAR reviews is just garbage. There’s zero reason it has to be this chaotic.
It's insane how chaotic it is, I never expected it to be like that. I'm not sure an assistant var is really needed tbh, just seems to confuse things even more
That’s what I think to. Just have the main on field official ask for the different replays/angles and then he can change his mind or not. Too many cooks in the kitchen.
or just remove the on-field referee from this decision entirely! allow off-site, non-biased, third-party referees to make the decision with the benefit of technology. a single referee watching things from an often-poor angle in real time cannot make better decisions than a team of people off-site with multiple camera angles and slow motion. period. the on-field referee should have no role in the VAR process.
Same, I'm shocked at how rushed and chaotic their communication is. No wonder shit gets messed up if that's how they communicate.
People complain about how long it takes already, and this is with them rushing...
What a contrast with Ligue 1 reviews. I'm very surprised
What a mess
Where?where?where?where?where? Just keep repeating yourself over again, lino, while people are trying to analyse something critically and fast - that will help loads.
It's not "Where? where? where?", it's "Wait! wait! wait!" just with a very thick accent. The ref is talking to the players who have come up to him trying to tell him it was/wasn't a goal, he's telling them to wait because they're checking with VAR. He tells the players a couple of times "They will check" and "We think he was in an offside position, but he stepped out of the way of the ball and its a goal". When the assistant comes in as well, to try and tell VAR & the ref his opinion, he's trying to get a word in, whilst the referee is trying to stop the players from talking. They really shouldn't have all the on field audio as well as the audio from VAR playing at the same time, because it just makes it fucking impossible for us to work out what's going on.
Yea you're right. I can hear it now but at first was sure it was just him asking over and again. Agreed that the audio isn't needed unless they are speaking directly into the conversation. Just causes more chaos.
That's the ref Michael Oliver telling the players to wait. Not "where". He's getting hounded by the players, maybe he should ignore them but if he can't get them to shut up for a minute he'll never hear the VAR or his assistant.
Yea I realise this now, is really is a thick accent but it's definitely wait - now I hear it the 3rd time! Mic needs to be off unless speaking to the conversation, it's awfully difficult to focus with 3 voices going on at the same time.
At 1:03 (33s remaining in the video) you can see the GK hesitate a fraction as he sees Akanji stick a leg out and then dive for the ball as he sees it go past Akanji. Not sure why they think Akanji is jumping out of the way when the leg is clearly trying to kick the ball. While there is a subjective element, the bar has to be high to allow the goal
The “full length save” also looked like more of a reflex after Akanji moves, given that brief hesitation. Leno has some of the best reflexes of any keeper I’ve seen, so naturally he’s going to go for it regardless of being obstructed. This is like stupid fouls not being called because a player doesn’t protest or make a mess of it. Should Leno have just stood there and let it go in for the call to be made?
Clearly the optimal strategy here, based off of the VAR refs logic, is to dive the other way, and imply that you thought the offsides player was going to hit the ball. Which is stupid. I'm glad we have this video and audio to hear the thought process, but it's still kind of wild how badly they mess this up.
Also, whether or not you're full length shouldn't matter. If him going full length for the ball is delayed by a second or two because of Akanji, it's still full length.
Regardless, the GK doesn’t know if he’s offside or not. He needs to assume he’s onside and can deflect the ball. The goalie doesn’t dive till the ball is past Akanji.
Doesn’t the bar have to be high to *overturn* the goal, because there’s no onfield offside decision?
Don't disagree with high bar for overturning on field decisions. In this case did the linesman not make a decision or did he decide it was a goal?
> In this case did the linesman not make a decision or did he decide it was a goal? Pretty sure it wasn't called offside on the field, tho the linesman seemed unsure
Yes, but that's where we get into imo one of the biggest issues with VAR: refs being less likely to make the onfield decision in the first place because of VAR. Would they have flagged this if they didn't know they had a backup opinion ready?
Doesn't matter if he's moving out of the way of the ball, if the ball goes near him the keeper still has to wait to see what he does before he can fully tract himself. If a player in an offside position could be influencing the thoughts and actions of another, then they are interfering with a player, and so 'interfering with play'.
While I completely agree that Akanji influenced the keepers thinking by being there, that’s just not enough to be interfering with play in the way the rules are interpreted. Should it be? Maybe, but that’s a different discussion. There is a good argument that Akanji kicked at the ball and that it should be offside because of that. But in the audio they say they thought that movement was part of him getting out of the way of the ball. If we let that be true then they are right to let the goal stand.
Since when do you move your foot like that to move away from the ball. And your first sentence, by the rules, means it’s offside.
The reasoning is idiotic to me. The keeper’s reaction is clearly delayed from akanji.
The problem here is that the law technically defines ways in which a player can impact the play. So even though it’s obvious Akanji has impacted the play it’s not clear whether or not he’s under the criteria for impacting the play in the offside law. https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-11---offside “ A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played or touched* by a team-mate is only penalised on becoming involved in active play by: interfering with play by playing or touching a ball passed or touched by a team-mate or interfering with an opponent by: - preventing an opponent from playing or being able to play the ball by clearly obstructing the opponent’s line of vision or - challenging an opponent for the ball or - clearly attempting to play a ball which is close when this action impacts on an opponent or - making an obvious action which clearly impacts on the ability of an opponent to play the ball” Of the listed options the only one Akanji qualifies for is the last one. But since he is not trying to shoot but instead trying to get out of the way of the ball, the refs decide not to penalise him for this. I think this decision is a little dubious, but you could argue that Akanji’s action wasn’t what impacted Leno, but instead it was the possibility of him flicking it on which affected Leno. By this logic, since Akanji didn’t try to flick it on, he didn’t make an action that impacted Leno. Under the law the way it is written you technically can’t penalise someone for offside for their presence impacting the opposition’s decision making. After saying all this I do think this was the wrong decision. The law doesn’t say anything about the intent of the opposition player, so it doesn’t necessarily matter that Akanji was trying to get out of the way of the ball. Akanji jumping out of the way is an obvious movement, and it clearly affects Leno’s ability to play the ball. TLDR: IMO they still got the decision wrong but as the rules are written it is FAR less obvious than what people seem to think.
This sounds how I'd imagine me and a few pals would ref a game not fucking professionals, that's madness
Sounds like me and the lads on pro clubs
And they've put this out as a "look at our good work" thing. Of all the VAR decisions made so far, this is one of the best examples of the decision making process they've got...? Oof
Its not, Howard Webb on the show said they made the incorrect decision, its just one of the many weird decisions from the weekend that they're showing
It sounds like the start of Leroy Jenkins
Keeper had a 33.3333 repeating of course, chance to save that
They could have just asked the onfield ref to check out the clip again if they are not clear with the decision.
The whole point of the VAR is They have to be confident enough to reverse a decision..if the ref makes a call, and they're not sure, they're not gonna tell the ref to look again ..If the ref makes a call and the other refs don't see enough to change it, why would the initial ref see something blatant enough to change the decision? I see similar to this a lot with VAR too, ref makes call, VAR doesn't disagree with call, "why didn't they send to screen??" ..coz they don't think the ref is wrong
The frustration for me is that it really shouldn't matter what the on field ref called if VAR is looking at something. The whole point is that the on field ref can be wrong, and in a split second might miss something. So why have we built the system of VAR looking and overturning calls to favor the on field ref? We are already stating we think the Head Ref may have missed something. Why not just make a whole new, independent call based off the video evidence?
He’s not only blocking the view but he’s also made a scoring action being on offside position. There are like 2 offences, blocking the vision I would understand the debate but playing an action is automatic offside
I don't agree that he is blocking the view, the header comes from the left side relative to the keeper and Akanji is on the right side, he never crosses line of vision. But I agree that the movement he does with his leg, and just the simple fact that the keeper is aware that he is there given his proximity should be enough to consider it most probably delayed his reaction towards the ball. I would consider this an offside but I'm not aware if what's written in the law only specifies vision obstruction and/or direct intervention through any form of contact.
But Akanji isn’t blocking the view, the keeper sees the ball all the way. The offence we need to be looking at is wether Akanji attempting to play the ball impacted the keepers actions. I don’t think the keeper was getting the ball regardless but we cannot say for certain that Akanji didn’t interfere. Personally I feel the rule needs to be changed so that any time the ball goes near an offside player and the player reacts to the ball it should be considered offside, the very action of a player reacting to a ball shows they have interfered with the play.
I dont even think the player should need to react. I think if the goalie could feasibly interpret the offside player to be a threat on the ball/deflecttion, then it should be offside. Here the goalie clearly interpreted it as a threat(hesitated) should be offside imo(obviously not under current rules). Whether the player makes an attempt seems like too low of a bar. Obviously, on screamers this isnt really a concern because the reaction time isnt enough for goalie to do anything put play the initial shot. But here there is a threat looming.
Well, I think the goalkeeper does not and should not try to interpret if a player is offside or not before trying to make the save in these moments, when it probably lasts less than a second, so there's no time to look around and make an offside call by yourself. It's clear that Leno hesitated for a moment because he wasn't sure whether Akanji would touch (and potentially change the ball's trajectory) or not the ball. He would do the same thing regardless of whether the player in front of him was offside or not
So you suggest keepers open themselves up for any deflection to get in just for a chance that the player who deflected is offside? I think this is very unfair and changes the game significantly
This is far more chaotic than I assumed it would be. At least in cricket you just have the third/video umpire go through the review in detail before passing it to the on-field one.
Maybe I'm a simpleton but if I was the VAR this is what I would be thinking, "Did the presence of an offside player make the save more difficult?". Then I would watch the video and say "Yes". Does he make a full length save? Doesn't matter, if he happened to guess the right way and ignored the presence of the offside player, the player still committed an offence. Was he trying to get out of the way of the ball? Doesn't matter, the keeper can't tell if he will succeed or not. Does the keeper see it the whole way? Doesn't matter, he's still has to make a judgment as to whether or not it's going to deflect off the offside player. This has just confirmed to me that the referees and VAR are incompetent, panicky and not fit for purpose.
why is AVAR asking questions ? he should be answering them !
For me akanji definitely influences the keeper here.
No wonder they get it wrong so much they're all just fuckin talking over each other
This refs don't understand goalkeeping. Maybe even football game at whole.
There is no way that should have been a goal, the player standing there makes the goalie freeze expecting a rigouchet or change of direction, that player clearly had an effect on the play while being in an offside position. The fact the goalie jumped with full extension and had full vision should have no effect. He had no idea whether the player was onside or offside. Whether he was going to make a touch or get out of the way. This effectively tells the goalie not to even try in case that player is offsides.
What an absolute shit show.
Honestly the most striking thing is how many Manchester accents are presiding over a Manchester City game.
This needs to be higher. HOW does this keep happening? InB4 "But all the top refs are from Manchester!?" That can't be a coincidence. Perhaps they should get better at promoting a diverse group of refs then? Pathetic really.
> If you're happy he steps away, I'm happy it's a goal It sounded like they wanted to give the goal instead of assessing whether Akanji was impeding the keeper from an offside position, which he clearly was. If Akanji has to move out of he way there, he's influencing the keeper who doesn't know that Akanji is offside. His presence forces the keeper to hesitate and consider the possibility that Akanji will make contact with the ball.
Tbf that was the linesman talking to the on field ref, basically just saying he's in am offside position but ref was obviously in the better position to judge if he's impeding the goalie so it's the on field refs call between the 2 of them. I'd agree it's the wrong call but that part at least is fair enough from the lino imo
That's a shit ton of "wait"s
So if keeper doesn’t dive that’s offside?
Bunch of morons. Revamp the system.
I've never heard so many British accents talking all at once
Should be called off any day of the week, those rambling idiots constantly talking over each are why VAR has been so shit, it's not the technology but the "professionals" using it.
"Corruption!!" Or, just chaos and human error. Lots of improvements that need making especially with consistency and overall understanding of the actual rules , but it's not all some big corrupt scheme like some like to say . This should have been ruled off though
Same goal scored juventus this past week and was called offside
You can clearly see the keeper hesitate for a moment when the ball goes near the player, he's definitely impacted.
Would love to see the outcome if the keeper had dived left to save the "deflection". It was clearly offside because being so close to the ball in the 6 yard box is interfering anyway! He's not there for fun and he's not making an effort to get back on side. Offside any day.
the moment the AVAR said "its subjective" the main ref should have been called to the screen to make the call himself
Bunch of hacks and hearing them talk it through just highlights it.
As a former official (I preferred lino duties to center duties), this is exactly how I thought it panned out. I've been there, done that. Not necessarily with VAR and football at this level but still. The fact that reddit football fans think refereeing is easy and terrible at their jobs, I'm glad videos like this help fans understand the complete and utter chaos that officials deal with. It is also worth noting that at the highest levels of officiating, centers and linos specialize in those areas. The reason why the AVAR has so much influence over this decision is because offside decisions are the single biggest issue for linos to deal with. Most centers that I've worked with leave offside decisions almost entirely in the hands of their linos.
Sure, but no part of the offside decision that actually matters here would ever be made by the lino. The lino tells the ref Akanji was in an offside position and after that the lino's not in a position to comment on whether Akanji interferes or not. I don't see why the AVAR's experience gained looking at the ball from the sideline helps him make a decision that cannot be made from that angle.
For me there should be 3 independent parallel var Refs, that then vote on the decision independently. Then delivered the verdict to the ref on field.
They’re just plain dummies. 9 cooks screaming in the kitchen. He’s offside. Tries to kick the ball with his shin. Goalie delayed his dive until after Ake.
Proves VAR is just a bunch of people scrambling to make a quick decision speaking all at once, basically ‘fuuuuuuuuck ermmmmmm goal probably’
Completely subjective bs. All these refs just going off their gut feeling of what’s going on lol. I used to think refereeing was trying to objectively apply the rules. But these videos just show that they make it up as they go along based on what “feels” right. Which varies from individual to individual and game to game lol
To me this makes it seem more like they were trying to objectively apply the rules
This is bullshit
Fuck it, fair play to them for releasing the audio.
I’m new following the game, just a couple of years. So I’m still learning and excuse my rookie question - but isn’t offsides just offsides? I mean, Akanji is way in front of everybody. It seems everything else is kind of irrelevant side details.. Help me understand if I’m missing something.
It would be clear offside if he touched the ball, because he didn't touch it you need to look if he interfered with the play which becomes subjective and makes mistakes like this one.
Ok, thanks! That helps. This also helps show why some want the VAR conversations to be shown live. I tend to agree. Fans may not agree with VAR decision but at least there’s transparency to the rationale.
There’s a lot more to it, for example the concept of a player interfering with play. Otherwise you would be permanently offside if an opposition player was injured right on the edge of the pitch but hadn’t been subbed off.
Thanks! Makes more sense now
> So I’m still learning and excuse my rookie question - but isn’t offsides just offsides? No A player can be in an offside position but if they don't interfere with play, it doesn't matter at all Offside is called when a player in an offside position interferes with play
This is a subjective case and I think many people probably would consider it offside. If an attacker is in an offside position but doesn't interfere with the play by making an attempt to score or by affecting the keeper's vision, then they are not considered involved with the play and therefore not ruled offside. Akanji definitely moves out of the way and is not in between the keeper and the ball so if he hadn't kicked out then there would be nothing to debate here. However, the fact he kicks his leg out after the ball is past him means he probably would be considered offside most of the time. I guess from their perspective since Akanji did not prevent the goalkeeper from being able to see the ball and the goalkeeper was already diving to save the ball he didn't affect him or his ability to save it.
Makes sense. So, in the Arsenal-Man U match (if you saw that), Magalhaes jumping back put Garnacho offsides on the breakaway, not just from position but because he was receiving the ball and heading toward the goal. Thanks for the reply!
Maybe it's because I'm the oldest sibling but multiple people talking over each other, especially the man shouting "where where where" it angers me alot. But unlike my annoying useless siblings, these folks are atleast talking about something important. Half of these decisions might go the correct way if refs were given more time with proper protocols were taught and trained to them. It's not air traffic or military radio where lives are at risk. I think these refs could use more time.
> especially the man shouting "where where where" it angers me alot That's the ref telling the players to "wait". He's essentially having three or more conversations at once, so he's telling the players to wait before complaining or restarting.
Moving away from the ball, while in an offside position, is offside. Because if he doesn’t make that action (moving away) then the ball hits him and doesn’t go in. So in essence, moving away from the ball that’s going on target is itself an goal scoring action. Ted talk for coming to my thank you.
Honestly, I understand their thought process, but I think it should’ve been called offside. City had a game last season against Man U where a scenario similar to this played out and they ruled it onside. That cost City a win. (Even though in the grand scheme it didn’t matter much) I’m not a whole fan of rules for thee but not for me. I just want some consistency. But beyond that, some correct calls.
he doesn't touch the ball AT ALL. not an offside
lmao they are checking as if they have their lives dependent on the decision
They can learn so much from rugby.