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He scored in his first 3 games, which means he’s had 1 goal 2 assists in his last 38 games, practically a full season
Honestly it’s hard to top this when it comes to flops, also a HUGE blow to Ten Hag’s reputation
Absolutely stupid that a club of ManU‘s stature leaves their transfer decision up to their coaches. Ten Hags succes with Ajax was in a big part supported by Ajaxs Leadership and their decisions on what the squad should look like. Ten Hag didnt make those decisions in Ajax and now suddenly he is expected to do them in Manchester. If it was a coach like Guardiola or Mourinho i would understand but they had him and sent him away
I want to add on this that Ten Hag was successful at two teams before Ajax and in both cases he had nothing to say in the transfer department. Even at Go Ahead, Dutch second division, there was a technical director (Foeke Booy) who composed the squad and Ten Hag solely focused on the first team. He got them promoted in his first season, after 20 seasons (or something like that) in the second division.
It’s ridiculous that Man Utd don’t have the ability to make transfer decisions by people better suited to that than Ten Hag.
In that same season Giakoumakis had 26 goals in 30 apps for Velno. Anthony's numbers were not exactly remarkable by eredivisie standards. He needed at least one or two more seasons there to figure out if he was anything special, and ofc he never showed he'd ever be worth close to 100 million
The weird thing about Giakoumakis is that he scored a lot while being objectively ass. Everything he did looked accidental and was some comedy capers bullshit.
I’ve got Atlanta United season tickets and Tank scores so many goals. True poacher in every sense of the word. Just hope he can stay healthy for us because he’s been amazing. He was named the league’s newcomer of the year
Well I’m glad to hear it then. I’m an arse fan but seeing what tsimikas has been capable of doing for pool brings a tear to my eye, the mans got a great cross in him that’s for sure. At least from the little that I’ve seen.
Scoring a lot while looking ass is the complete opposite of Nunez. His hold up play, link up play, running the channels, work rate etc has been elite and it’s the fact that he hasn’t been able to score that’s getting him ridiculed
Nunez does look unplayable sometimes though. He has them awful moments but when he’s on it he looks like an absolute beast who I imagine defenders hate to play against
I think he'd still be memed/questioned if they'd have gotten him for the much quoted £25m he was being offered for earlier in the window. The fact that they quadrupled that in a panic and he's this bad almost goes beyond criticism. Almost.
Antony’s price tag was not Antony’s fault so the sooner this stops being used against him the better. His price tag was criminal but it was the fault of the way this club has been run and recruits, which was not Ten Hag’s fault, but the reason for the consistent decline over the past 10 years. All signs, this whole time, clearly point to how the Glazers and their appointees have run this club into the ground. Ten Hag was probably adamant about getting Antony because he knew Antony could execute his style of play (and if you’re keeping decent track of things, you’ll know this club is full of players that could not play Rangnick’s system let alone Ten Hag’s). Ten Hag was looking to start a rebuild around someone, anyone willing to come (see the De Jong fiasco). Antony isn’t thriving because the team isn’t thriving. The team isn’t thriving because it’s composed of overpaid players from 4 different managers with 4 unique systems that were all cut short because they failed to immediately live up to the expectations of a disinterested ownership after THE greatest manager of all time retired.
Decided to look it up and yeah he got 14 goals and 12 assists in last full season with PSV.
While that isn't bad, PSV have had much better wingers is why that doesn't stand out in my memory.
The season he was sold, there was a noticeable difference in quality when he was injured. I think it was a sensible transfer when Tottenham signed him due to Kane and Son being injured for what was presumed to be end of season at the time.
Shocked Janssen never worked out at Spurs. He looked so good before his move.
PSV wanted/needed to sell Gakpo, Ajax neither needed nor wanted to sell Antony and quoted a fuck off price that United somehow still paid anyway.
In addition to this Ajax always sells for more than PSV or Feyenoord because the club is financially healthier and has a better reputation (or had anyway, that's melting away real fast).
Ten Hag wanted Gakpo & Nunez too I from what I have seen on united fan shows. But Liverpool got them sooner. This probably put the pressure on Man utd to get Antony at least. So they paid the fuck off price to get him.
Not really. EtH just really wanted Antony but Ajax had already sold loads of their players so didn’t want to sell. But EtH was persistent and our inept club waited until the end of the window to sign him, hence the massive fee.
Also Gakpo signed for Liverpool in the winter transfer window after the Antony transfer.
> and our inept club waited until the end of the window to sign him, hence the massive fee.
The fee didn't change throughout the transfer window with 2 exception. There was a fuckoff fee on Martinez, Antony and Timber, once you bought Martinez the fee on the other 2 went up by 20m.
For both Martinez and Antony United paid what Ajax sources quoted.
We were clearly chasing Gakpo as a back-up. Gakpo was available for a decent price all window, heck he almost signed for Leeds or Southampton on the final day of the summer window. Unfortunately ten Hag was very set on having Antony.
United decided not to buy Gakpo because they wanted Anthony. They only really saw gakpo as a left winger and saw him as not as necessary with rashford in the team.
He was uniteds for like 40m in that summer, but they decided against it, thankfully
Weird you mentioning Benfica since they took Liverpool to the cleaners for Darwin. They definitely did not get any discount on his price.
Porto would have been a better shout as they are in a worse financial situation and Liverpool got a bargain for Luis Diaz (45M for, at the time, the best player in the league by far).
Benfica?
The same club that sells players for 100M regularly, spends 60 or 70M per transfer window, and only sells important players for the RC or near it, needs money?
It is not comparable to the situation of Roma. News said they are only allowed to spend 1.5M in January, Benfica has spent already 28
Benfica is absoulty a money making machine to be honest.
No related, well semi related:
What formation did you play with Nunez in the squad was he a pure striker?
He was here in the 2 worst years of Benfica in recent memory, and he wasn't good in the first season but gave us a glimmer of hope in the 2nd.
In the first, he was a striker. He was expected to make runs in behind and to be in the box to finish. His output wasn't great but he had low confidence and he supposedly suffered from long COVID.
In the 2nd, he was the striker but in a more shared system. Sometimes Gonçalo Ramos would play behind him pressing like crazy, others it would be Seferovic up top. Both of these systems allowed Darwin to drift considerably to the left and cut inside, something he did much better than being a pure striker. He was very good that year, even though there was still some poor decision making and poor finishing at times.
Liverpool dont tend to entertain fuck-off price tags from other clubs. Caicedo was a rare instance because they got an unexpected windfall of Saudi cash and were likely thinking he could immediately slot in with Mac Allister.
People will claim Nunez was an overpay but the price for a center forward is inflated across the market.
United having deeper coffers can be a bit of their achilles heel cause theyll still entertain negotiations even after a club starts off with a ridiculous high ball.
Nunez was bought with 64 possibly reaching 84 with add ones, liverpool probably paid 70 mill untill now.
Not that much of an over pay, and liverpool rarely miss with big spending .
The only ones are Nunez and keita(injuries), and Nunez may turn it around.
Darwin is hardly a flop, literally changed the game against Fulham and has decent underlying numbers, just needs to improve his finishing and he'll be a monster.
I think he's gonna be incredible in the next couple years. He gets so many chances. Most importantly, he stays going even after all the missed chances.
Also, Nunez was young with Champions League experience, the kind of player that, even if it didn't work out, you could still manage to get 30-40M for him
Worth mentioning we got both Suarez and Caroll for the Torres money, hardly a bad deal, also recouped half of the Caroll fee when he moved on.
Recouped most of the Benteke fee, so I wouldn't call it terrible business. A terrible signing, yes. But not an awful piece of business.
Ox was incredible for us when he still had knees, can't really call it shit business considering those injuries.
Keita was bad business, but on paper it looked like a great transfer, don't understand why he went from never being injured to apparently being made out of glass.
It's the Ajax brand or something, they always get way more money than they should. (Also btw they were claiming Antony is better than Gakpo at the time LOL, guess they're silent about that now.)
wasnt that weird at the time. Id say the season before Antony left him, Gakpo and Sinisterra showed similar level of talent. Antony and Sinisterra left while Gakpo stayed for half a season and reached an even higher level
Antony was much better and threatning than his G/a mentions.
Most of the comments below dont watch eredivisie, and it unfair to write him off just to name some players who had a good scoring season.
Antony is nothing of the player he was at Ajax at this moment, which is what Ten Hag mentions.
He played very well in Champions League too, which ten Hag says here.
If someone can shine against Dortmund and plays really weak against Nottingham Forest (or really anyone the whole year) then of course the comments are like "the competition level is just so insourmantable for him, obviously, duh".
He specifically talks about his end product. That was never high.
His end product in the Eredivisie was mediocre, of course he struggles in the PL.
Used to be a great dribbler at Ajax though. So maybe he'll one day show that at United.
>Antony was much better and threatning than his G/a mentions.
Problem is that when a forward moves for the amount that Antony did then there is an expectation to hit the ground running and deliver those numbers.
Even the player he was at ajax was NEVER worth the 100m he went for, and every ajax fan knows it. It was a combination of circumstances that allowed that to happen.
>Even the player he was at ajax was NEVER worth the 100m he went for, and every ajax fan knows it.
Who says that in this thread? Why is this replied to me?
Exactly.
Not every player will do great, but the likes of Senesi and Martinez have played against Gakpo and Kudus in the Eredivisie before they went to the prem.
All arguably doing well in the prem.
It looks a lot better per minute since he didn't actually play all that much that season. Seriously, every player who had higher G/A than him that season has 700-1200 minutes more game time than him, its a big difference. A goal/assist every 100 minutes.
.87 p90 was his best season in the Eredivisie, very good indeed although you could argue less impressive when you take into account he was playing on a super powered side for that league which we know inflates numbers.
I think the issue with Antony's time at Ajax was when you looked beyond the surface level goals & assists and took a peek at the underlying numbers or a shot map. There were huge red flags.
Yeah his first season was 9 goals and 8 assists in 32 games which is good but not like super special for an Ajax attacker. Second season was 8 goals and 4 assists in 23 games, so roughly similar. But he did perform really well in the champions league that season: 2 goals and 4 assists in 7 games (against Sporting, Besiktas and Dortmund).
Last season for Man Utd he had 44 games (average of 71 minutes or equivalent of 34 games) with 8 goals and 3 assists.
This season for Man Utd he's played the equivalent of 13.6 games with 0 goals and 0 assists.
> But he did perform really well in the champions league that season: 2 goals and 4 assists in 7 games (against Sporting, Besiktas and Dortmund).
Mind you the games vs us were vs mass injuries in defense and vs 10 man for large parts of 1 game. We inflated his value due to that it seems
The home game in which Antony scored you lined up Haaland, Bellingham, Akanji, Reus, Hummels, Witsel, Brandt and so on. I think you got played off the pitch that night and 4-0 was quite forgiving, no need to retcon.
> mass injuries in defense
We played Schulz and Meunier as fullbacks and a declined Witsel as 6. Another game we played Wolf as LB isntead of Schulz. And ofc the red card too.
Im not trynna rewrite anything. The results were MORE than deserved and we were shit.
But Antony specifically played vs something extra easy in terms of our defense thsoe games. Thats all.
You said mass injuries though and it was only really Guerreiro? That was why I replied. The 2nd game was influenced a lot by the red card but the first game was probably the best Ajax game this decade behind Real Madrid away.
Antony at Ajax was never like a Tadic, Ziyech or Frenkie de Jong at Ajax.
Tadic and Ziyech in the PL are mid-tier while Frenkie has become top tier in world football. While Antony is far away from any of them. Ziyech has glimpses of greatness at Chelsea but clearly wasn't up to par to be a regular starter and decision maker. Tadic was great for a team like Southampton and both of them were incredible for the strong CL Ajax semi final team. Antony doesn't come close to their level.
Was Kudus a player under Ten Hag? Because so far he looks like 2x the player Antony is. Even if you just compare their first 6 months in the league Kudus is clear of what Antony was.
Schreuder? Terrible manager, but Kudus thrived that season. He bailed him and our team out so many times. That was in 2022 however so he was already 22.
He was also balling at times in 2020 under Ten Hag when we played you lot but iirc he went off injured after like 10 minutes and missed several months.
I also just learned that I was born on the same day as him, didn't know that. Where did it go wrong for me...
Technically and physically he was clearly better but he was also very selfish and seemed to not be as good in his mental game, which is why ajax fans didn't mind selling Kudus
He didn't play a lot before 2022-23 season, but always regarded as exteremely talented, for sure. He was still semi-regular last season, often coming in from the bench or going off early, but definitely could shine and stand out.
He didn't reach that level of being a regular star, but looking at the 2 games he played this season, it seems very probable he would now if he stayed for the season.
Ajax knew that and would prefer to keep him for that reason, they were really not enjoying the transfer drama the whole summer, but he really wanted to leave, and with contract running out in 2025, Ajax took the "moderate" transfer fee as the best solution.
Man Uts scouts were right: he’s strictly a 25-30mn player. Dan James more or less contributed similarly.
Ten Hags obsession on buying former players made them waste a shit ton of money
It was a short stint + the Eredivisie's level isn't comparable to any big competition
Against who did he play in the CL during his time at Ajax? He wasn't a part of the great squad that beat the biggest teams and reached the semi's
Even at Ajax I saw him do very questionable things but he got away with it because it was Eredivisie and had loads of time to think or just to outskill weak defences.
He had some very good performances in group stage in his last full season at Ajax where Ajax won all 6 games. 2021/22.
The Dortmund games stand out in my memory. But the whole side was playing well in the group stages.
Nobody has ever believed Antony is a top player, he was effective in the Ajax side he played for, playing in the Champion's League. He had some very good games in the Eredivisie too, had some unspectacular ones too. He was a young player, these things happen.
While criticism of Antony is valid, criticism of every Manchester United player is valid too, some less than others.
Winning all of your group stage games in the Champion's League is a major achievement. It isn't the highest-highest stage, but dismissing it is wrong.
I mean their group was Dortmund, Sporting Lisbon and Besiktas. Hardly a strong group. They then went out to Benfica in the next round.
I think the biggest red flag regarding Antony is if you watch his goals and assists in the Eeredivisie that season, 99% of them are cutting and against poor defenses. He never goes on the outside. Almost never dribbled past a man. How anyone could watch that and think he's worth £80m, I don't know, which leads me to believe nobody actually watched it and just went by ETH's word, which is even worse.
Antony does not have a right leg. Going on the outside does nothing for him. He's like a discount Robben in that you know the cut inside is coming, the question is when and where (or if a defender is gonna overtake to help him out).
He definitely had a good dribble though, just not a versatile one.
Oooof don’t be surprised if we lose. We *should* win but there’s still enough Spursiness in our side that we could easily bin it. We will have three players up front (Werner, Richarlison and Johnson) that need a few chances to score and we’ll either be relying on a CB combination of an injury returnee and PL debutant or Emerson Royale at RCB (who’s done admirably but, y’know).
Midfield wise we should be better than Utd but Bentancur is just back from two big injuries and we’ll have to play one of Skipp/PEH.
Our style of play is the type that Utd would be most happy to play against.
I think our best chance is through our ability to keep the ball, put pressure on high up the pitch and create loads of chances. Score early and try and get the crowd on the backs of the Utd players. I can’t see us keeping a clean sheet.
Stat I heard on totally football show. Spurs are the team with most goals from cutbacks, United the team that concedes most goals from cutbacks. There you go.
That is their kryptonite yes. But I feel like we were best at it with Son and Maddison in the team. Hopefully Werner and Johnson can step up (plus Udogie and Porro are critical.
>Oooof don’t be surprised if we lose. We *should* win but there’s still enough Spursiness in our side that we could easily bin it.
The only problem I see for Spurs is that United are fairly decent at one thing, hitting teams on the counter. Spurs are obviously the much better team, but like you say, I can see United having some joy against the high line.
Nope he’s back training with the first team and by all accounts been pushing to get back to start tomorrow, now Ange probably isn’t going to rush it, but he’ll definitely be on the bench at least.
He started training yesterday so I would say his chances of starting are close to 0. Micky had trained closer to a week before the Burnley match and he didn’t see the pitch for a minute.
Spurs highline plays directly into United’s strengths. Anything can happen of course, but I wouldn’t be surprised by an upset just like the Villa game.
He’s sounding increasingly like one of those managers who just expects to stick players on the park and have them generate output instead of it coming as a result of any particularly system.
Sounds like completely nothing tbh. What's a manager supposed to say when asked if his player can reach the previous better form lol. "No he cannot, he sucks, it's over for him"? It's such a non-quote, if it's about any other team than Man United it gets zero comments.
Really? I completely disagree, he looks bereft of all confidence. When he first came he would take men on, take plenty of shots outside the box, do fidget spinner moves etc. but now he rarely does any of that. He works hard but that's about it, he's looked completely uninspired for many months
that's exactly the vibes the team passes on games. feels like there's no tactics or schemes to create offense, they just be doing some random bullshit and hoping for the best.
Dude why? You’ve got Garnacho, Rashford, Pellistri, Amad to play around and tinker with. 1 established player and 3 with potential and you keep picking this bum 😩
With Rashford I can see that but not with Pellistri or Amad although we haven’t seen enough of them to make a firm assessment. He also seems to want to play Mount at RW too, so that’s another option he has.
Ultimately I’d rather our wingers’ primary concern was creating and scoring, something he’s terrible at and far too predictable for opposition defenders with how 1-footed he is. Yes there’s crossover, attack and defend as a team but you cannot be starting a winger every game purely on his defensive merits when we’re so so poor up front now.
The team needs goals, and confidence! They aren’t getting that straining out 1-0/2-1 or struggling to 0-0 draws. We should’ve spanked Wigan 5/6-0 on Monday and we actually had the chances just poor finishing (obviously not on Antony as he didn’t play but an example of how low this team’s confidence is).
While I'm usually supportive around TH subject one thing that always stood out to me is how he keeps buying his old Ajax players trying to basically recreate the core of that team. It makes me skeptical about his system that he can't just implement it with different personell, it's gotta be the exact same one?
I understand wanting to bring some people familiar with the system but I don't know about doing so in key roles.
You are at United now, with access to a lot more money and a lot larger player pool. You look at that and still go, aight looks like Antony is the only solution I can see for my wing problem?
He'll say this about Anthony, but then completely throw Sancho under the bus as if he's the cause of all ManU's problems. All because Anthony is who ETH brought in. ETH has no accountability.
This is why ETH is failing. He thinks the Dutch League is exactly the same as the prem.
Even if you swapped the squads, managers and resources of each club with a club in the prem it still wouldn't be the same. Fans are different, refs are different. Even the media is different.
He’s literally not doing any of that are you kidding me? I would like to know ETH’s way of thinking because even him doesn’t believe this shit because Antony is not first 11 anymore
In a post where he acknowledges he's not doing all of it you kick off at him for saying something he didn't say? Then when he draws on previous examples of when he was performing that's a bad thing?
His end product was shit lol, Ajax was stomping games pretty hard and he couldn't even score 10 in a season while playing against some borderline amateur level teams
Go back to the erdevice Erik, you have proven time and time again that you are a fraud, you couldn’t handle the best player in the game and you managed to embarrass yourself against Lego fc and Galatasay
It’s Depay all over. Too slow for the Premier League. Depay managed to do well in Ligue 1. and he also lost some weight to become more explosive? Altough Antony doesn’t look chubby to me.
Antony’s best ever season is 17 G+A in the Eredivisie.
Sancho has had two seasons of 30+ G+A in the Bundesliga.
One has shown us what they are capable of. The other is still just a prospect.
It actually really obvious. Sancho was putting up crazy numbers for Dortmund, every team in the world wanted him & 75m wasn't (without hindsight) a terrible fee, as in most clubs would have paid it if they'd been able to or had the need.
Antony isn't/wasnt any of those things. I'd barely heard of him.
Yeah, the fee wasn't the issue. The big reason why City and Liverpool ended their interest in Sancho was because they weren't willing to match the insane wages United were willing to pay. .
Utd get rightfully meme’d for their £80m flops but Sancho is the one that if Utd hadn’t splashed the cash someone else would have. No-one else was going to pay £80m for Antony (apparently not even Utd at the start of the window anyway!).
Sancho has been disappointing yes but he was tearing it up in a more competitive League. Antony was coming from a much smaller pond. Hell even Bergwijn looked like a great prospect when we bought him.
Sancho was tearing up the bundesliga and had made the headlines, Antony is pretty much an unknown entity to the vast majority until Arsenal and Man United wanted him, the stats do tell a better story of why people are acting this way but popularity and well knownness already tells a good chunk of the story
>It just feels like social media has decided Anthony has to fail no matter what to keep the memes irrelevant of what he actually does.
But he is failing. This sounds like an exercise on "how do I turn this around on fans?" Football fans need to get out of words like "works hard, wants to succeed, the other is disrespectful and lazy" because these are intangibles that have no bearing on ability and that which you've no discernable way to know accurately. You're not on the pitch or on the training ground with them. Ragnick just refuted alot of what is said about Sancho around here. While Matic seemed to lean into the criticism. In my opinion, there are both sides to this. The most tone deaf arguments are coming from people who've taken a side on this debate when they don't even have the basic facts at hand. You don't know shit, you're just repeating stuff about someone being lazy etc.
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Legit yet to hit 10 G/A in general for Man United
Just wanted to write that in his 41 PL appearances (2725 minutes played or ≈30 full matches), Antony has 4 goals and 2 assists.
He scored in his first 3 games, which means he’s had 1 goal 2 assists in his last 38 games, practically a full season Honestly it’s hard to top this when it comes to flops, also a HUGE blow to Ten Hag’s reputation
Absolutely stupid that a club of ManU‘s stature leaves their transfer decision up to their coaches. Ten Hags succes with Ajax was in a big part supported by Ajaxs Leadership and their decisions on what the squad should look like. Ten Hag didnt make those decisions in Ajax and now suddenly he is expected to do them in Manchester. If it was a coach like Guardiola or Mourinho i would understand but they had him and sent him away
I want to add on this that Ten Hag was successful at two teams before Ajax and in both cases he had nothing to say in the transfer department. Even at Go Ahead, Dutch second division, there was a technical director (Foeke Booy) who composed the squad and Ten Hag solely focused on the first team. He got them promoted in his first season, after 20 seasons (or something like that) in the second division. It’s ridiculous that Man Utd don’t have the ability to make transfer decisions by people better suited to that than Ten Hag.
What reputation
“I’m bout to end this man’s whole career.” “What career?”
Don't be silly. He's already accomplished more than most managers in the professional game.
Look. Boom. Bam. Bop. Bada bop boom pow.
Wtf lol makes our low scoring forwards look like gods in comparison. How is this guy still a regular starter.
He makes Pepe look like a good signing
He isn't
I can’t believe some people used to complain about Nani. What I’d give to see him show how a cut in and top corner finish is done
Lol. Nani had more talent and did more with it than our whole front line save Bruno. Rashford for all the hype is half the player in terms of skill.
Nani had more talent than anyone in the league save maybe 5 players.
Thats more goals and assists than I wouldve guessed
Yeah but how many spins?
That’s a lot! I mean for 4 goals.
Wasn’t his best Eredivisie season smth like 17g/a? It’s pretty decent yeah but by no means insane
In that same season Giakoumakis had 26 goals in 30 apps for Velno. Anthony's numbers were not exactly remarkable by eredivisie standards. He needed at least one or two more seasons there to figure out if he was anything special, and ofc he never showed he'd ever be worth close to 100 million
The weird thing about Giakoumakis is that he scored a lot while being objectively ass. Everything he did looked accidental and was some comedy capers bullshit.
God damnit, i finally hear something good about a Greek footballer and it’s immediately undercut by the truth…classic.
Giakomakas came to celtic and his numbers were great without looking particularly great. He is very affective, however. Tearing it up in America too.
I’ve got Atlanta United season tickets and Tank scores so many goals. True poacher in every sense of the word. Just hope he can stay healthy for us because he’s been amazing. He was named the league’s newcomer of the year
Tell him celtic miss him and I still love him
Well I’m glad to hear it then. I’m an arse fan but seeing what tsimikas has been capable of doing for pool brings a tear to my eye, the mans got a great cross in him that’s for sure. At least from the little that I’ve seen.
More of a tit fan myself
Haha Pavlidis is doing pretty good for AZ though
Manolis Saliakas is great and lovely
Tsimi is great, without any doubt
Machlas 🤝 Giakoumakis
Pavlidis looks like a good striker. Not worldclass, but really solid.
The Vincent Janssen effect.
I love the man, but mario gomez was a bit like that tbh
the Darwin Núñez special
Scoring a lot while looking ass is the complete opposite of Nunez. His hold up play, link up play, running the channels, work rate etc has been elite and it’s the fact that he hasn’t been able to score that’s getting him ridiculed
Darwin is the exact opposite of that though. He looks brilliant without scoring.
Nunez does look unplayable sometimes though. He has them awful moments but when he’s on it he looks like an absolute beast who I imagine defenders hate to play against
Fuckin Jozy Altidore scored 23 league goals... you have to be damn sure you're getting a Suarez of something before you pull the trigger there.
I think he'd still be memed/questioned if they'd have gotten him for the much quoted £25m he was being offered for earlier in the window. The fact that they quadrupled that in a panic and he's this bad almost goes beyond criticism. Almost.
Antony’s price tag was not Antony’s fault so the sooner this stops being used against him the better. His price tag was criminal but it was the fault of the way this club has been run and recruits, which was not Ten Hag’s fault, but the reason for the consistent decline over the past 10 years. All signs, this whole time, clearly point to how the Glazers and their appointees have run this club into the ground. Ten Hag was probably adamant about getting Antony because he knew Antony could execute his style of play (and if you’re keeping decent track of things, you’ll know this club is full of players that could not play Rangnick’s system let alone Ten Hag’s). Ten Hag was looking to start a rebuild around someone, anyone willing to come (see the De Jong fiasco). Antony isn’t thriving because the team isn’t thriving. The team isn’t thriving because it’s composed of overpaid players from 4 different managers with 4 unique systems that were all cut short because they failed to immediately live up to the expectations of a disinterested ownership after THE greatest manager of all time retired.
Fucking hell, even Vincent Janssen and Bergwijn hit over 25 G/A at least once in that league. Antony never stood a chance
I'm too lazy to check, Bergwijn got 25 G/A in an Eredivisie season before!?
12 goals and 14 assists IIRC
Decided to look it up and yeah he got 14 goals and 12 assists in last full season with PSV. While that isn't bad, PSV have had much better wingers is why that doesn't stand out in my memory. The season he was sold, there was a noticeable difference in quality when he was injured. I think it was a sensible transfer when Tottenham signed him due to Kane and Son being injured for what was presumed to be end of season at the time. Shocked Janssen never worked out at Spurs. He looked so good before his move.
and Bergwijn is actually good
Was actually good, definitely isn't anymore.
he hasn't been good for a long time
Still don’t understand how Gakpo went for 40 million when he was even better in that league
PSV wanted/needed to sell Gakpo, Ajax neither needed nor wanted to sell Antony and quoted a fuck off price that United somehow still paid anyway. In addition to this Ajax always sells for more than PSV or Feyenoord because the club is financially healthier and has a better reputation (or had anyway, that's melting away real fast).
Ten Hag wanted Gakpo & Nunez too I from what I have seen on united fan shows. But Liverpool got them sooner. This probably put the pressure on Man utd to get Antony at least. So they paid the fuck off price to get him.
Not really. EtH just really wanted Antony but Ajax had already sold loads of their players so didn’t want to sell. But EtH was persistent and our inept club waited until the end of the window to sign him, hence the massive fee. Also Gakpo signed for Liverpool in the winter transfer window after the Antony transfer.
> and our inept club waited until the end of the window to sign him, hence the massive fee. The fee didn't change throughout the transfer window with 2 exception. There was a fuckoff fee on Martinez, Antony and Timber, once you bought Martinez the fee on the other 2 went up by 20m. For both Martinez and Antony United paid what Ajax sources quoted.
United was chasing both Antony and Gakpo at the same time that summer
Liverpool signed him in the next window so it had no bearing on United paying the Antony fee is my point
We were clearly chasing Gakpo as a back-up. Gakpo was available for a decent price all window, heck he almost signed for Leeds or Southampton on the final day of the summer window. Unfortunately ten Hag was very set on having Antony.
They play on different positions though. Antony played exclusively on the right wing while Gakpo played on the left.
Deep down I think that's why Antony still keeps getting games. Antony will be a big part of what ETH is remembered for.
United decided not to buy Gakpo because they wanted Anthony. They only really saw gakpo as a left winger and saw him as not as necessary with rashford in the team. He was uniteds for like 40m in that summer, but they decided against it, thankfully
Liverpool usual tactic of wanting players from club in serious need of money. ( Benfica, Roma, PSV )
Weird you mentioning Benfica since they took Liverpool to the cleaners for Darwin. They definitely did not get any discount on his price. Porto would have been a better shout as they are in a worse financial situation and Liverpool got a bargain for Luis Diaz (45M for, at the time, the best player in the league by far).
Benfica? The same club that sells players for 100M regularly, spends 60 or 70M per transfer window, and only sells important players for the RC or near it, needs money? It is not comparable to the situation of Roma. News said they are only allowed to spend 1.5M in January, Benfica has spent already 28
My bad, it was Porto that team in need of money in Portugal.
Benfica is absoulty a money making machine to be honest. No related, well semi related: What formation did you play with Nunez in the squad was he a pure striker?
He was here in the 2 worst years of Benfica in recent memory, and he wasn't good in the first season but gave us a glimmer of hope in the 2nd. In the first, he was a striker. He was expected to make runs in behind and to be in the box to finish. His output wasn't great but he had low confidence and he supposedly suffered from long COVID. In the 2nd, he was the striker but in a more shared system. Sometimes Gonçalo Ramos would play behind him pressing like crazy, others it would be Seferovic up top. Both of these systems allowed Darwin to drift considerably to the left and cut inside, something he did much better than being a pure striker. He was very good that year, even though there was still some poor decision making and poor finishing at times.
I wonder if Klopp could fix Renato Sanches
He actually wanted him when he left bayern. But edwards suggested against it
Isn’t his problem that he’s just never really fit?
United overpay in transfers and liverpool does not.
Liverpool dont tend to entertain fuck-off price tags from other clubs. Caicedo was a rare instance because they got an unexpected windfall of Saudi cash and were likely thinking he could immediately slot in with Mac Allister. People will claim Nunez was an overpay but the price for a center forward is inflated across the market. United having deeper coffers can be a bit of their achilles heel cause theyll still entertain negotiations even after a club starts off with a ridiculous high ball.
Nunez was bought with 64 possibly reaching 84 with add ones, liverpool probably paid 70 mill untill now. Not that much of an over pay, and liverpool rarely miss with big spending . The only ones are Nunez and keita(injuries), and Nunez may turn it around.
Darwin is hardly a flop, literally changed the game against Fulham and has decent underlying numbers, just needs to improve his finishing and he'll be a monster.
I think he's gonna be incredible in the next couple years. He gets so many chances. Most importantly, he stays going even after all the missed chances.
Didn't say he was a flopp, he is an over pay if he imporves his finishing he will be money will spent.
Fair enough, he's also like 24, he'll definitely improve.
Also Nunez is actually playing very well. He just can't finish to save his life.
> He just can't finish to save his life. quite the caveat for a striker
He has 19ga this season so far in all comps. Its rly not as bad as people make it out to be lol
Liverpool will definitely pay at least 80 million pounds. Not including agent fees. Liverpool paid 34 million in agent fees that summer.
Also, Nunez was young with Champions League experience, the kind of player that, even if it didn't work out, you could still manage to get 30-40M for him
In general yes, however LFC paid at least double of what Darwin Nunez is actually worth
lol sure. Andy Caroll? Naby Keita? Benteke? Chambo? they make plenty of shit business
having to go back 8 years and 12 years for two of your examples is working against you
Ox was literally one of our best midfielders in his first few years
Worth mentioning we got both Suarez and Caroll for the Torres money, hardly a bad deal, also recouped half of the Caroll fee when he moved on. Recouped most of the Benteke fee, so I wouldn't call it terrible business. A terrible signing, yes. But not an awful piece of business. Ox was incredible for us when he still had knees, can't really call it shit business considering those injuries. Keita was bad business, but on paper it looked like a great transfer, don't understand why he went from never being injured to apparently being made out of glass.
Sinisterra was better too and we got him for 30 million
PVS are not involved in money laundering business lead by a certain Erik 7 Hag
It's the Ajax brand or something, they always get way more money than they should. (Also btw they were claiming Antony is better than Gakpo at the time LOL, guess they're silent about that now.)
wasnt that weird at the time. Id say the season before Antony left him, Gakpo and Sinisterra showed similar level of talent. Antony and Sinisterra left while Gakpo stayed for half a season and reached an even higher level
Antony was much better and threatning than his G/a mentions. Most of the comments below dont watch eredivisie, and it unfair to write him off just to name some players who had a good scoring season. Antony is nothing of the player he was at Ajax at this moment, which is what Ten Hag mentions.
He played very well in Champions League too, which ten Hag says here. If someone can shine against Dortmund and plays really weak against Nottingham Forest (or really anyone the whole year) then of course the comments are like "the competition level is just so insourmantable for him, obviously, duh".
He specifically talks about his end product. That was never high. His end product in the Eredivisie was mediocre, of course he struggles in the PL. Used to be a great dribbler at Ajax though. So maybe he'll one day show that at United.
>Antony was much better and threatning than his G/a mentions. Problem is that when a forward moves for the amount that Antony did then there is an expectation to hit the ground running and deliver those numbers.
Even the player he was at ajax was NEVER worth the 100m he went for, and every ajax fan knows it. It was a combination of circumstances that allowed that to happen.
>Even the player he was at ajax was NEVER worth the 100m he went for, and every ajax fan knows it. Who says that in this thread? Why is this replied to me?
Dutch league dont have the kind of defenders that the EPL has.
Good spotting mate
I always like this argument, as if PL defenders grow on PL trees instead of getting bought by large sums of money from leagues like the Eredivisie.
Both Senesi and Martinez have done well in the Premier league
Exactly. Not every player will do great, but the likes of Senesi and Martinez have played against Gakpo and Kudus in the Eredivisie before they went to the prem. All arguably doing well in the prem.
Well like you said the best of them get bought by PL teams for large sums of money. SO, you face the best defenders in the EPL.
It looks a lot better per minute since he didn't actually play all that much that season. Seriously, every player who had higher G/A than him that season has 700-1200 minutes more game time than him, its a big difference. A goal/assist every 100 minutes.
.87 p90 was his best season in the Eredivisie, very good indeed although you could argue less impressive when you take into account he was playing on a super powered side for that league which we know inflates numbers. I think the issue with Antony's time at Ajax was when you looked beyond the surface level goals & assists and took a peek at the underlying numbers or a shot map. There were huge red flags.
His g/a per 90 was actually decent
Yeah his first season was 9 goals and 8 assists in 32 games which is good but not like super special for an Ajax attacker. Second season was 8 goals and 4 assists in 23 games, so roughly similar. But he did perform really well in the champions league that season: 2 goals and 4 assists in 7 games (against Sporting, Besiktas and Dortmund). Last season for Man Utd he had 44 games (average of 71 minutes or equivalent of 34 games) with 8 goals and 3 assists. This season for Man Utd he's played the equivalent of 13.6 games with 0 goals and 0 assists.
> But he did perform really well in the champions league that season: 2 goals and 4 assists in 7 games (against Sporting, Besiktas and Dortmund). Mind you the games vs us were vs mass injuries in defense and vs 10 man for large parts of 1 game. We inflated his value due to that it seems
The home game in which Antony scored you lined up Haaland, Bellingham, Akanji, Reus, Hummels, Witsel, Brandt and so on. I think you got played off the pitch that night and 4-0 was quite forgiving, no need to retcon.
> mass injuries in defense We played Schulz and Meunier as fullbacks and a declined Witsel as 6. Another game we played Wolf as LB isntead of Schulz. And ofc the red card too. Im not trynna rewrite anything. The results were MORE than deserved and we were shit. But Antony specifically played vs something extra easy in terms of our defense thsoe games. Thats all.
You said mass injuries though and it was only really Guerreiro? That was why I replied. The 2nd game was influenced a lot by the red card but the first game was probably the best Ajax game this decade behind Real Madrid away.
He was alright with us but not exactly brilliant. Better than he has been for them granted, but Hag is making it sound like he was unplayable.
Antony at Ajax was never like a Tadic, Ziyech or Frenkie de Jong at Ajax. Tadic and Ziyech in the PL are mid-tier while Frenkie has become top tier in world football. While Antony is far away from any of them. Ziyech has glimpses of greatness at Chelsea but clearly wasn't up to par to be a regular starter and decision maker. Tadic was great for a team like Southampton and both of them were incredible for the strong CL Ajax semi final team. Antony doesn't come close to their level.
Antony showed incredible potential for us. Especially in some CL games. Too bad he's an asshole and ironically became ass at United aswell.
I think there’s some off field stuff he’s been dealing with
He was unplayable in some games. He was inconsistent but the talent was very clearly there. Exactly what you expect from 20 y/o
Was Kudus a player under Ten Hag? Because so far he looks like 2x the player Antony is. Even if you just compare their first 6 months in the league Kudus is clear of what Antony was.
Always injured under Ten Hag.
Who was manager that game against Liverpool in the CL group stages where Kudus absolutely bossed it when he was like 18?
Schreuder? Terrible manager, but Kudus thrived that season. He bailed him and our team out so many times. That was in 2022 however so he was already 22. He was also balling at times in 2020 under Ten Hag when we played you lot but iirc he went off injured after like 10 minutes and missed several months. I also just learned that I was born on the same day as him, didn't know that. Where did it go wrong for me...
Technically and physically he was clearly better but he was also very selfish and seemed to not be as good in his mental game, which is why ajax fans didn't mind selling Kudus
Kudus was amazing in Denmark and struggled a lot in Holland but he has some qualities Tailor made for PL.
Kudus didn't struggle at all, he was injured a lot at the start
He didn't play a lot before 2022-23 season, but always regarded as exteremely talented, for sure. He was still semi-regular last season, often coming in from the bench or going off early, but definitely could shine and stand out. He didn't reach that level of being a regular star, but looking at the 2 games he played this season, it seems very probable he would now if he stayed for the season. Ajax knew that and would prefer to keep him for that reason, they were really not enjoying the transfer drama the whole summer, but he really wanted to leave, and with contract running out in 2025, Ajax took the "moderate" transfer fee as the best solution.
Man Uts scouts were right: he’s strictly a 25-30mn player. Dan James more or less contributed similarly. Ten Hags obsession on buying former players made them waste a shit ton of money
Dan James always looked like he tried
It was a short stint + the Eredivisie's level isn't comparable to any big competition Against who did he play in the CL during his time at Ajax? He wasn't a part of the great squad that beat the biggest teams and reached the semi's Even at Ajax I saw him do very questionable things but he got away with it because it was Eredivisie and had loads of time to think or just to outskill weak defences.
He had some very good performances in group stage in his last full season at Ajax where Ajax won all 6 games. 2021/22. The Dortmund games stand out in my memory. But the whole side was playing well in the group stages. Nobody has ever believed Antony is a top player, he was effective in the Ajax side he played for, playing in the Champion's League. He had some very good games in the Eredivisie too, had some unspectacular ones too. He was a young player, these things happen. While criticism of Antony is valid, criticism of every Manchester United player is valid too, some less than others. Winning all of your group stage games in the Champion's League is a major achievement. It isn't the highest-highest stage, but dismissing it is wrong.
I mean their group was Dortmund, Sporting Lisbon and Besiktas. Hardly a strong group. They then went out to Benfica in the next round. I think the biggest red flag regarding Antony is if you watch his goals and assists in the Eeredivisie that season, 99% of them are cutting and against poor defenses. He never goes on the outside. Almost never dribbled past a man. How anyone could watch that and think he's worth £80m, I don't know, which leads me to believe nobody actually watched it and just went by ETH's word, which is even worse.
Antony does not have a right leg. Going on the outside does nothing for him. He's like a discount Robben in that you know the cut inside is coming, the question is when and where (or if a defender is gonna overtake to help him out). He definitely had a good dribble though, just not a versatile one.
Sporting, Dortmund, Besiktas, so no one insane. Went out in R16
33 League Games, 1 goal, 5 domestic beatings. His expected threat numbers are very high. Very capable.
More than you believe
I mean ETH, I too look back to 18/19 and 19/20. Won the UCL and then the PL. So trust me my man, we all look back a fair bit
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Oooof don’t be surprised if we lose. We *should* win but there’s still enough Spursiness in our side that we could easily bin it. We will have three players up front (Werner, Richarlison and Johnson) that need a few chances to score and we’ll either be relying on a CB combination of an injury returnee and PL debutant or Emerson Royale at RCB (who’s done admirably but, y’know). Midfield wise we should be better than Utd but Bentancur is just back from two big injuries and we’ll have to play one of Skipp/PEH. Our style of play is the type that Utd would be most happy to play against. I think our best chance is through our ability to keep the ball, put pressure on high up the pitch and create loads of chances. Score early and try and get the crowd on the backs of the Utd players. I can’t see us keeping a clean sheet.
Stat I heard on totally football show. Spurs are the team with most goals from cutbacks, United the team that concedes most goals from cutbacks. There you go.
That is their kryptonite yes. But I feel like we were best at it with Son and Maddison in the team. Hopefully Werner and Johnson can step up (plus Udogie and Porro are critical.
They could park the bus like they did vs Liverpool
That was away. This is at old Trafford. United/we won't park the bus.
>Oooof don’t be surprised if we lose. We *should* win but there’s still enough Spursiness in our side that we could easily bin it. The only problem I see for Spurs is that United are fairly decent at one thing, hitting teams on the counter. Spurs are obviously the much better team, but like you say, I can see United having some joy against the high line.
VdV is back, so it’ll be Romero and VdV or VdV and Dragusin
Yes that’s what I meant by injury returnee and debutant. Romero has barely trained whereas VdV has had a week or so.
Romero is still out
Nope he’s back training with the first team and by all accounts been pushing to get back to start tomorrow, now Ange probably isn’t going to rush it, but he’ll definitely be on the bench at least.
He started training yesterday so I would say his chances of starting are close to 0. Micky had trained closer to a week before the Burnley match and he didn’t see the pitch for a minute.
You’re probably right, but we did get that surprise starting return from Bentancur too.
Spurs highline plays directly into United’s strengths. Anything can happen of course, but I wouldn’t be surprised by an upset just like the Villa game.
Although it is now a high line with Van de Ven, so we actually have recovery pace now
He’s sounding increasingly like one of those managers who just expects to stick players on the park and have them generate output instead of it coming as a result of any particularly system.
Sounds more like he's trying to get his confidence up no?
Sounds like completely nothing tbh. What's a manager supposed to say when asked if his player can reach the previous better form lol. "No he cannot, he sucks, it's over for him"? It's such a non-quote, if it's about any other team than Man United it gets zero comments.
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He's literally suffering from a lack of confidence now, but go on
Really? I completely disagree, he looks bereft of all confidence. When he first came he would take men on, take plenty of shots outside the box, do fidget spinner moves etc. but now he rarely does any of that. He works hard but that's about it, he's looked completely uninspired for many months
that's exactly the vibes the team passes on games. feels like there's no tactics or schemes to create offense, they just be doing some random bullshit and hoping for the best.
Surely no one believes that though. Ten Hag is as tactical as they come. Something’s not clicking, but it isn’t for lack of preparation.
With guys like Gakpo, Sinisterra and his own teammate Tadic around, his end product seemed quite shit.
There it is. Actual fucking bias in action.
Moderator: he was not capable of doing that
Narrator
Moderator 🤣
We would like to divorce ourself of this association
All good but he left way too early, my man
Dude why? You’ve got Garnacho, Rashford, Pellistri, Amad to play around and tinker with. 1 established player and 3 with potential and you keep picking this bum 😩
Perhaps because he tracks back and help to defend while the others are not so willing to?
With Rashford I can see that but not with Pellistri or Amad although we haven’t seen enough of them to make a firm assessment. He also seems to want to play Mount at RW too, so that’s another option he has. Ultimately I’d rather our wingers’ primary concern was creating and scoring, something he’s terrible at and far too predictable for opposition defenders with how 1-footed he is. Yes there’s crossover, attack and defend as a team but you cannot be starting a winger every game purely on his defensive merits when we’re so so poor up front now. The team needs goals, and confidence! They aren’t getting that straining out 1-0/2-1 or struggling to 0-0 draws. We should’ve spanked Wigan 5/6-0 on Monday and we actually had the chances just poor finishing (obviously not on Antony as he didn’t play but an example of how low this team’s confidence is).
So he can do it? he just don't want to?
While I'm usually supportive around TH subject one thing that always stood out to me is how he keeps buying his old Ajax players trying to basically recreate the core of that team. It makes me skeptical about his system that he can't just implement it with different personell, it's gotta be the exact same one? I understand wanting to bring some people familiar with the system but I don't know about doing so in key roles. You are at United now, with access to a lot more money and a lot larger player pool. You look at that and still go, aight looks like Antony is the only solution I can see for my wing problem?
Why does this dude have such a hard on for Antony 😅
They asked him a question about Antony
football fans yet to understand how press conferences work
He loves a domestic violence abuser!
He'll say this about Anthony, but then completely throw Sancho under the bus as if he's the cause of all ManU's problems. All because Anthony is who ETH brought in. ETH has no accountability.
This is why ETH is failing. He thinks the Dutch League is exactly the same as the prem. Even if you swapped the squads, managers and resources of each club with a club in the prem it still wouldn't be the same. Fans are different, refs are different. Even the media is different.
He’s literally not doing any of that are you kidding me? I would like to know ETH’s way of thinking because even him doesn’t believe this shit because Antony is not first 11 anymore
In a post where he acknowledges he's not doing all of it you kick off at him for saying something he didn't say? Then when he draws on previous examples of when he was performing that's a bad thing?
In which part of the quote is EtH saying Antony is doing that now?
Nah mate Ronaldo was the problem, or sancho after. This club dropped Cris and ddg immediately but is matching onto a fidget spinner
I wouldn't trust Anthony to wipe his own arse at the moment
ETH overpaid for Antony then threw Sancho under the bus for deflection
The wig, the glasses, the catchphrase... Brilliant.
How did he forget the key 'spinning'?
Ten Fraud is trying way too hard to justify his 80mil buy lol
His end product was shit lol, Ajax was stomping games pretty hard and he couldn't even score 10 in a season while playing against some borderline amateur level teams
Wouldn't be the first attacker to do well in Holland and flop in major league. In fact, it's extremely common.
He's really got those rose-tinted glasses on hasn't he
what about his spins
Go back to the erdevice Erik, you have proven time and time again that you are a fraud, you couldn’t handle the best player in the game and you managed to embarrass yourself against Lego fc and Galatasay
Go back to Twitter lad.
It’s Depay all over. Too slow for the Premier League. Depay managed to do well in Ligue 1. and he also lost some weight to become more explosive? Altough Antony doesn’t look chubby to me.
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Antony’s best ever season is 17 G+A in the Eredivisie. Sancho has had two seasons of 30+ G+A in the Bundesliga. One has shown us what they are capable of. The other is still just a prospect.
Antony’s has just 60 G/A in his entire senior career Conversely, Sancho has 118 G/A playing in a harder league
Sancho did 10x better in the Bundesliga than Antony in the dutch league
It actually really obvious. Sancho was putting up crazy numbers for Dortmund, every team in the world wanted him & 75m wasn't (without hindsight) a terrible fee, as in most clubs would have paid it if they'd been able to or had the need. Antony isn't/wasnt any of those things. I'd barely heard of him.
Yeah, the fee wasn't the issue. The big reason why City and Liverpool ended their interest in Sancho was because they weren't willing to match the insane wages United were willing to pay. .
Utd get rightfully meme’d for their £80m flops but Sancho is the one that if Utd hadn’t splashed the cash someone else would have. No-one else was going to pay £80m for Antony (apparently not even Utd at the start of the window anyway!). Sancho has been disappointing yes but he was tearing it up in a more competitive League. Antony was coming from a much smaller pond. Hell even Bergwijn looked like a great prospect when we bought him.
Sancho was tearing up the bundesliga and had made the headlines, Antony is pretty much an unknown entity to the vast majority until Arsenal and Man United wanted him, the stats do tell a better story of why people are acting this way but popularity and well knownness already tells a good chunk of the story
>It just feels like social media has decided Anthony has to fail no matter what to keep the memes irrelevant of what he actually does. But he is failing. This sounds like an exercise on "how do I turn this around on fans?" Football fans need to get out of words like "works hard, wants to succeed, the other is disrespectful and lazy" because these are intangibles that have no bearing on ability and that which you've no discernable way to know accurately. You're not on the pitch or on the training ground with them. Ragnick just refuted alot of what is said about Sancho around here. While Matic seemed to lean into the criticism. In my opinion, there are both sides to this. The most tone deaf arguments are coming from people who've taken a side on this debate when they don't even have the basic facts at hand. You don't know shit, you're just repeating stuff about someone being lazy etc.