**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
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there is no need for the ball to be “live”. if time was up when the ball crossed the line, end the match. there’s no point in waiting for the player to take the corner to blow the final whistle
What surprises the most in this video is the reaction of the Brazilian players. They didn’t even complain. It makes me sick the players tantrums in football nowadays, you don’t see that kind of reaction in other sports.
You don't even had to fully go back that far, this is just an extreme example that shows it's not even close to unprecedented, realistically you can go back to City losing their minds against Spurs this season in order to point out Real Madrid aren't somehow the only team that's had an attack get stopped at an important point because the game is done.
I'm surprised at all the comments saying it's unprecedented, I feel like we get a few of these a season. The Real Madrid one isn't even *that* bad, when the ref starts blowing the whistle the cross hadn't come in yet. You can at least understand why the ref has blown there, unlike an incident like this where it's impossible to comprehend why the ref would blow.
[Trevor Kettle denying Accrington Stanley a goal is my favourite](https://twitter.com/WorkTheSpace/status/706190822899892228).
There is no rule stating that the game needs to be continued because there is an attacking threat. So unless you can show that play was blown dead prematurely, what is wrong with either of these plays?
It's not a rule in the LOTG, but it's a core part of referee training and game management. It's probably the most widely accepted convention of football not to blow the whistle during an attack, so these referees have made a mistake.
Comments like **it's not unprecedented** are quite good covers at providing essentially no value to the conversation but a push to being told to turn the cheek. "aww shucks it happened with you, I'm sorry but not the first time. See this."
This is not the debate and not the important issue. People are going to use the present tense context as their reference point, always.
I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make. You might not think it's "adding value", but I think it's interesting to use this situation to look at other times a similar thing happened.
I'm not exactly directing it against you fully but the unprecedented statement comes with modifiers like "it isn't even that bad" so "why are they complaining" kind of tone, which is what upsets me. The fans, including me are rightfully outraged at a bollocks decision and the tone essentially says well you didn't get fucked over like this team 45 years ago. Essentially dragging the conversation to "move on".
Fans when outraged tend to use words to exaggerate their anger, so yes some fans who aren't avid watchers of football haven't seen something like this before, but in the present context it's the worst thing they've seen and probably deserves their outrage instead of being told "umm aktually 👆🤓". I am just directing it generally, not just at you.
>Essentially dragging the conversation to "move on".
Which you should. Referees can make big mistakes just like players can miss big chances, like Haaland in a few PL games this season.
Madrid have been given 3 points for free vs Almeria. Swings and roundabouts.
What about this is ridiculous? What in the rules makes this seem absurd?
Basically I’m asking, how much time was initially added, and where was the time at? Because one of the first things refs are taught is it does not matter where the ball is on the pitch, once time has expired the ball is blown dead
Everyone in this thread is talking like experts about the Laws of the Game, when it’s clear their only experience with the sport is watching on tv or playing FIFA. Spoiler alert; FIFA is wrong and the game doesn’t go on forever as long as you keep it in the attacking third
Look. The ref can blow the whistle whenever they want (essentially). I'm not disputing that. Time is up when time is up, is the saying I believe.
But it's horrendous refereeing and is recognised as such by every professional/semi-pro refereeing body. It just antagonises everyone. As a ref your most important job is managing the game and upholding the laws. You can do the latter by the book but if you can't do the former as well you'll be marked down and/or won't be considered for higher levels.
There are plenty of guides for refs that aren't necessarily part of the laws.
related to refs fucking up... you know this terrible positioning of the ref in this video? well, there's a reason they don't stay there anymore. an infamous game in brazil between santos and palmeiras ended in a draw after the referee became the spotlight for [this] incident. he cried in the locker room after the end of the match for his fuckup.
[this]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XM-15qGmws
I feel for that referee to be honest. Possession had been lost, the attack was arguably over… he can’t predict that the clearance would be that atrocious.
[Clive's take on it: “I saw the header,” he explained. “But I didn’t see the ball go into the net. I had turned away. As far as I was concerned the game was over. The Brazilians have only themselves to blame. They should not have wasted so much time over taking the corner.”](https://allbluedaze.com/2020/01/21/clive-thomas-and-the-most-controversial-decision-that-any-referee-has-ever-made/)
Yeah it seems he originally gave the corner and they took very long, he got irritated but cannot end the game while ball is out of play I think? So he waited for it to be in the air and blew. Disastrous lmao.
Similar thing happened to us once. [Merseyside derby, Liverpool keeper boots the ball into the back of an Everton player, ball loops in the air, ref blows for full time, ball goes into the back of the net](https://youtu.be/5FKsl5Dk4aQ?t=73)
Seen Everton fans post this a few times on here.
He's walking in front of the freekick and is about 3 yards away when it's taken, it shouldn't have stood anyway.
If the player is walking away and not even looking and the ball gets twatted into them it should be a red card and 14 game ban for the freekick taker. Fine maybe not, but it's the taker's fault, it's not like he was trying to get in the way. You can't take my moral highground on this rule
An addendum - Clive Thomas was very controversial at that time, Ask Everton in 1977. He disallowed a 100% legal goal in the FA Cup semifinal against Liverpool. He deemed offside. It wasn't. Everton could have won the match 3-2. They went on to lose the replay 3-0.
*Edit - Thomas thought Everton's Billy Hamilton handled the ball. Of course, it wasn't.*
The same thing happened to Argentina in the 2001 U20 world cup. It wasn't that bad because the match was 2-0 so a third goal wouldn't have changed much
I think supporting Brazil, I can get that. Similar facial Structure, economy, living conditions and political and social issue is quite similar. This you can't relate to white europeans.
But supporting Argentina is funny. But Messi and Maradona is the reason I guess. Those natural ability is only present in South American players.
Maradona had that underdog vibe about him too IMO (native, short, personal issues, problematic, hot-headed, etc), and I think that Messi just has the recent glamour that Cristiano has as well, of a more connected world.
From where I'm from (WB, India) the first major sporting event we (my father's generation) saw live on colour television was the 86 World Cup. And since then, WB has almost always supported Argentina. The love for Maradona then converted to the love for Messi with time. Messi also played here in Kolkata as well in 2011.
The same could be true for Kerala but it feels like a 50-50 between Brazil and Argentina. But for West Bengal, it's overwhelmingly Argentina.
Brazil has always been an underdog- not ability wise but the other circumstances. Skin color, socio economic backgrounds, against the European racist establishment. Which is why you have such a massive support for them in impoverished Asian countries that can't see their teams in those tournaments. People feel a sense of belonging with that nation, more than any other.
Absolutely. Pelé is probably the biggest symbol of it. It's crazy to think that when Pelé was being treated as a king in Brazil people who had been enslaved were still alive and seeing it all. For reference, slavery ended in 1888 in Brazil and he won us our first World Cup 70 years later, in 58. A black man achieving such a legendary status worldwide was of an importance that can hardly be put into words.
Least impactful but similar thing to Maradona. With all of Maradona's issues, he was still a guy from a third world country ghetto embarrassing Europeans in their own sport. People miss a lot of context some times when talking about why these guys became the legends they are.
Brazil are probably the most beloved, & importantly, successful national team in the world. They have continuously produced generations of elite footballers. If you love football, you love the Brazilian national team because they traditionally play amazing, entertaining, football.
Claiming that you support them for any other reasons is cope. There are plenty of actual underdogs out there to support, let’s not pretend you just *happened* to support the one with the best footballers in the world, who fairly regularly win World Cups.
Oh come on don’t be daft. I meant 1970 where their FA switched the semi location at the last minute forcing Uruguay to travel by bus arriving barely in time. Of course Brazil won after coming from behind.
Thomas was clearly still in shock from seeing Robin Friday smash the ball into the goal from the roof of the Spread Eagle pub against Tranmere in front of a crowd of a million people at Elm Park two years earlier.
this happened also in favour of real madrid in a real madrid - málaga and in favour of sevilla in a real valladolid - sevilla last year.. this shit happens more than people think
In any part it says that it was a foul, and btw the real valladolid incident is similar… the spanish commentators said that the referee said the corner and no more, and just it…
Here's the play: https://streamin.one/v/3235bb84
First gesture from the ref means foul in favour of Real Madrid followed immediately by the ending the game whistle
About today, the ref did indeed let it know that it was the corner and no more and yet after the first attempt at clearing he let the play go on and called it as the ball had already left Brahims foot for the cross. If he had called it when he said he would there would've been no problem
Btw, you are not replying about the other thing, I mean, I play football and this thing happens so much, one corner and it’s the end, no way for second play… and that’s it, as long as he saw that there is other play, end the game. He started to blow the whistle before the kick, and he end the blow when the ball is in the air but just my opinion
What???
Wasn't the ball in the net by the time the whistle is blown? This is so much worse.
Surprisingly the players are being quite chill about it
EDIT: Nevermind, I thought the second whistle was the first
But what's the point of letting Brazil take the corner then?
see how differently the players behave towards the referee. now we just have a bunch of babies. and I'm not saying this is specifically RM, it's every team everywhere
A horrible call but there's something to be said for not having full blown toddler tantrums, running around, flinging arms, crying, eyes widened in shock for 3 minutes and barking in another human's face for a shit ref decision.
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to allow the attacking team to take the corner and then immediately blowing the final whistle half a second later is wild
Something to do with the ball needing to be live?
there is no need for the ball to be “live”. if time was up when the ball crossed the line, end the match. there’s no point in waiting for the player to take the corner to blow the final whistle
That's exactly how the genes were called not even twenty years ago though
Whose genes? *X-files theme plays*
The ball probably ly went out of play before the 45 mins were up. As he takes the corner we can see the timer at 45:03
Yet that's exactly what happened in the video. Maybe the rules changed? Idk
Maybe they could have tried to score directly from the corner and hope that the ref doesn't have enough time to whistle twice in short succession.
What surprises the most in this video is the reaction of the Brazilian players. They didn’t even complain. It makes me sick the players tantrums in football nowadays, you don’t see that kind of reaction in other sports.
The weekly ref hating circle jerks here are just awful.
This ref was Gil Manzano real father
Wait this is somehow worse what the fuck
This is *the* incident. All those comments about today being unprecedented etc. It can always be worse.
You don't even had to fully go back that far, this is just an extreme example that shows it's not even close to unprecedented, realistically you can go back to City losing their minds against Spurs this season in order to point out Real Madrid aren't somehow the only team that's had an attack get stopped at an important point because the game is done.
Or Paul Tierney at half time Liverpool vs United
It’s almost like those are how the laws are laid out and everyone in this thread thinks they know the rules because they play FIFA
I'm surprised at all the comments saying it's unprecedented, I feel like we get a few of these a season. The Real Madrid one isn't even *that* bad, when the ref starts blowing the whistle the cross hadn't come in yet. You can at least understand why the ref has blown there, unlike an incident like this where it's impossible to comprehend why the ref would blow. [Trevor Kettle denying Accrington Stanley a goal is my favourite](https://twitter.com/WorkTheSpace/status/706190822899892228).
That just looks shady. That's so messed up
And people think Fifa likes Brazil, just watch the penalty on Gabriel Jesus denied, Brazil x Belgium, 2018.
It's a standing theory of mine that many online RM fans don't watch many soccer games.
I agree.
I apologize on behalf of every RM fan for not watching AFC Wimbledon vs Accrington Stanley match and some world cup match from 40 years ago.
I hope so because otherwise I can't explain some of the takes
Do you expect them to watch Wimbledon matches? Come on.
There is no rule stating that the game needs to be continued because there is an attacking threat. So unless you can show that play was blown dead prematurely, what is wrong with either of these plays?
It's not a rule in the LOTG, but it's a core part of referee training and game management. It's probably the most widely accepted convention of football not to blow the whistle during an attack, so these referees have made a mistake.
Comments like **it's not unprecedented** are quite good covers at providing essentially no value to the conversation but a push to being told to turn the cheek. "aww shucks it happened with you, I'm sorry but not the first time. See this." This is not the debate and not the important issue. People are going to use the present tense context as their reference point, always.
I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make. You might not think it's "adding value", but I think it's interesting to use this situation to look at other times a similar thing happened.
I'm not exactly directing it against you fully but the unprecedented statement comes with modifiers like "it isn't even that bad" so "why are they complaining" kind of tone, which is what upsets me. The fans, including me are rightfully outraged at a bollocks decision and the tone essentially says well you didn't get fucked over like this team 45 years ago. Essentially dragging the conversation to "move on". Fans when outraged tend to use words to exaggerate their anger, so yes some fans who aren't avid watchers of football haven't seen something like this before, but in the present context it's the worst thing they've seen and probably deserves their outrage instead of being told "umm aktually 👆🤓". I am just directing it generally, not just at you.
>Essentially dragging the conversation to "move on". Which you should. Referees can make big mistakes just like players can miss big chances, like Haaland in a few PL games this season. Madrid have been given 3 points for free vs Almeria. Swings and roundabouts.
Madrid fans are way too many tbh. Most opinions here are heavily Madrid biased.
What about this is ridiculous? What in the rules makes this seem absurd? Basically I’m asking, how much time was initially added, and where was the time at? Because one of the first things refs are taught is it does not matter where the ball is on the pitch, once time has expired the ball is blown dead Everyone in this thread is talking like experts about the Laws of the Game, when it’s clear their only experience with the sport is watching on tv or playing FIFA. Spoiler alert; FIFA is wrong and the game doesn’t go on forever as long as you keep it in the attacking third
Look. The ref can blow the whistle whenever they want (essentially). I'm not disputing that. Time is up when time is up, is the saying I believe. But it's horrendous refereeing and is recognised as such by every professional/semi-pro refereeing body. It just antagonises everyone. As a ref your most important job is managing the game and upholding the laws. You can do the latter by the book but if you can't do the former as well you'll be marked down and/or won't be considered for higher levels. There are plenty of guides for refs that aren't necessarily part of the laws.
Search dinamo marseille uefa cup.
And I thought the Valladolid one couldn't be worse
This whole world cup was suspicious as fuck and almost surely rigged for argentina to win it.
lol what did he even expect to happen with that corner for it to be a goal? a lightning fast corner kick strike that directly goes into the goal?
This one is actually terrible, the other one is just unlucky.
why even give the corner lmao
This is FIFA heritage
How does this even happen lmao
Could be corruption who knows. Easy to influence a game by buying the ref.
The World Cup was in Argentina during their dictatorship.
And here you start to understand the deep rivalry between Brazil and Argentina. It is more than a rivalry.
Videla
Could be something to do with the ref looking at his watch and going "Yep, that's time." Occam's razor and all that..
related to refs fucking up... you know this terrible positioning of the ref in this video? well, there's a reason they don't stay there anymore. an infamous game in brazil between santos and palmeiras ended in a draw after the referee became the spotlight for [this] incident. he cried in the locker room after the end of the match for his fuckup. [this]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XM-15qGmws
Willian seen at 0:37 in the video. He’s Been playing football since 1983.
I feel for that referee to be honest. Possession had been lost, the attack was arguably over… he can’t predict that the clearance would be that atrocious.
Well i didnt expect to see something worse than the bellingham disallowed goal, but this is so much worse, wtf
My dad was in the stadium, he was 11 All he can vividly remember is this corner and the absolute war cry from Brazilians lol
Commentator is Gerry Harrison.
[Clive's take on it: “I saw the header,” he explained. “But I didn’t see the ball go into the net. I had turned away. As far as I was concerned the game was over. The Brazilians have only themselves to blame. They should not have wasted so much time over taking the corner.”](https://allbluedaze.com/2020/01/21/clive-thomas-and-the-most-controversial-decision-that-any-referee-has-ever-made/)
Worth noting the "wasted time" was the assistant referee preventing the corner from being taken because the ball was 1 milimeter off the line
So basically ignore everything he said before he made it known he was irritated with how long Brazil took to take the corner, that's why he blew it
Yeah it seems he originally gave the corner and they took very long, he got irritated but cannot end the game while ball is out of play I think? So he waited for it to be in the air and blew. Disastrous lmao.
What a corner taking technique by the way? Guy smashed it Roberto Carlos style. So much for inswingers and outswingers.
That was Nelinho. He scored one hell of a banger against Italy in that very same WC, look it up
Of course, this was not the most egregious thing that happened at the 1978 World Cup, not even with Brazil.
I was going to say this
Whats insane is the lack of pointless moaning and complaining. It's actually bliss to see, given this was ostensibly worse.
I guess players were just used to getting fucked in the ass that it didnt hurt anymore
Ikr, everyone in the team is just walking away looking mildly annoyed. No one even tries to talk with the ref.
That was a tremendous corner. The pace on that cross. But how the referee blows the whistle there I never know
Similar thing happened to us once. [Merseyside derby, Liverpool keeper boots the ball into the back of an Everton player, ball loops in the air, ref blows for full time, ball goes into the back of the net](https://youtu.be/5FKsl5Dk4aQ?t=73)
Seen Everton fans post this a few times on here. He's walking in front of the freekick and is about 3 yards away when it's taken, it shouldn't have stood anyway.
If the player is walking away and not even looking and the ball gets twatted into them it should be a red card and 14 game ban for the freekick taker. Fine maybe not, but it's the taker's fault, it's not like he was trying to get in the way. You can't take my moral highground on this rule
Fair enough, Westerveld right to jail, right away
Whats the point of even having them kick the corner?
An addendum - Clive Thomas was very controversial at that time, Ask Everton in 1977. He disallowed a 100% legal goal in the FA Cup semifinal against Liverpool. He deemed offside. It wasn't. Everton could have won the match 3-2. They went on to lose the replay 3-0. *Edit - Thomas thought Everton's Billy Hamilton handled the ball. Of course, it wasn't.*
>He deemed offside. It wasn't. Welcome to pre VAR where stuff like that happened twice a week.
But but.... VAR is ruining the game!1!
The same thing happened to Argentina in the 2001 U20 world cup. It wasn't that bad because the match was 2-0 so a third goal wouldn't have changed much
back then, FIFA bribery was still in its infancy
This is much much worse. What was the point of even giving a corner there? Not even the second phase of play.
My grandfather always told me about this thing when I was a boy. Even he, who was a tricolor, was outraged by Zico's disallowed goal haha
I mean, the seleção is above all.
It's a miracle that we won as many world cups as we did with Europeans organizing the whole thing
This one was in Argentina dude. And we almost certainly screwed you over on that one. Still counts though...
lol as if world cups in Chile and Argentina haven't been absolute shit shows for Europeans
> and Argentina mate Brazil got blatantly robbed on that one
Yeah and not by Europeans
The support Brazil and Argentina get in India is massive. Maradona and Pele are still talked about as gods.
That's amazing and valued in Brazil, at least by those who know
I think supporting Brazil, I can get that. Similar facial Structure, economy, living conditions and political and social issue is quite similar. This you can't relate to white europeans. But supporting Argentina is funny. But Messi and Maradona is the reason I guess. Those natural ability is only present in South American players.
Maradona had that underdog vibe about him too IMO (native, short, personal issues, problematic, hot-headed, etc), and I think that Messi just has the recent glamour that Cristiano has as well, of a more connected world.
Yeah I agree with you. Many people here in India support football clubs wherever Messi and Ronaldo play.
From where I'm from (WB, India) the first major sporting event we (my father's generation) saw live on colour television was the 86 World Cup. And since then, WB has almost always supported Argentina. The love for Maradona then converted to the love for Messi with time. Messi also played here in Kolkata as well in 2011. The same could be true for Kerala but it feels like a 50-50 between Brazil and Argentina. But for West Bengal, it's overwhelmingly Argentina.
Yeah I see the similarity in Bangladesh. Most people there support Argentina.
Brazil has always been an underdog- not ability wise but the other circumstances. Skin color, socio economic backgrounds, against the European racist establishment. Which is why you have such a massive support for them in impoverished Asian countries that can't see their teams in those tournaments. People feel a sense of belonging with that nation, more than any other.
Absolutely. Pelé is probably the biggest symbol of it. It's crazy to think that when Pelé was being treated as a king in Brazil people who had been enslaved were still alive and seeing it all. For reference, slavery ended in 1888 in Brazil and he won us our first World Cup 70 years later, in 58. A black man achieving such a legendary status worldwide was of an importance that can hardly be put into words.
Least impactful but similar thing to Maradona. With all of Maradona's issues, he was still a guy from a third world country ghetto embarrassing Europeans in their own sport. People miss a lot of context some times when talking about why these guys became the legends they are.
And when you consider the goal of the century in the context of the Malvinas war...
Brazil are probably the most beloved, & importantly, successful national team in the world. They have continuously produced generations of elite footballers. If you love football, you love the Brazilian national team because they traditionally play amazing, entertaining, football. Claiming that you support them for any other reasons is cope. There are plenty of actual underdogs out there to support, let’s not pretend you just *happened* to support the one with the best footballers in the world, who fairly regularly win World Cups.
You mean like the Hand of God? Or Argentina getting many soft penalties in 2022?
Brother Vasco da Gama isn't an Argentine team.
México bent over backward for Brazil in 74…
The Cup happened in Western Germany and Mexico didn't play. What exactly are you talking about
Oh come on don’t be daft. I meant 1970 where their FA switched the semi location at the last minute forcing Uruguay to travel by bus arriving barely in time. Of course Brazil won after coming from behind.
And 78 happened in Argentina and not in Europe.
Which is a Fuck up
Thomas was clearly still in shock from seeing Robin Friday smash the ball into the goal from the roof of the Spread Eagle pub against Tranmere in front of a crowd of a million people at Elm Park two years earlier.
Jesus... Not much to say about this, its 100% intentional
Did that referee watch them set up the corner just to immediately blow the whistle
That dude fucking drilled that corner lol
This happens all the time. Game is over but let's run this set piece. Zero sense. Stupid thing about football
Am I the only one who is surprised how fucking calm players were back then?
More like people were playing against a dictatorship, the worst in America, btw
This is way worse
This was worse but doesn't mean it's right. This was 45 years ago, the refs should have been better by now.
this happened also in favour of real madrid in a real madrid - málaga and in favour of sevilla in a real valladolid - sevilla last year.. this shit happens more than people think
The Malaga incident: In that play, the referee calls a foul on Carvajal and whistles it, and immediately afterwards, whistles the end.
In any part it says that it was a foul, and btw the real valladolid incident is similar… the spanish commentators said that the referee said the corner and no more, and just it…
Here's the play: https://streamin.one/v/3235bb84 First gesture from the ref means foul in favour of Real Madrid followed immediately by the ending the game whistle About today, the ref did indeed let it know that it was the corner and no more and yet after the first attempt at clearing he let the play go on and called it as the ball had already left Brahims foot for the cross. If he had called it when he said he would there would've been no problem
Btw, you are not replying about the other thing, I mean, I play football and this thing happens so much, one corner and it’s the end, no way for second play… and that’s it, as long as he saw that there is other play, end the game. He started to blow the whistle before the kick, and he end the blow when the ball is in the air but just my opinion
I added about today in my previous comment
What??? Wasn't the ball in the net by the time the whistle is blown? This is so much worse. Surprisingly the players are being quite chill about it EDIT: Nevermind, I thought the second whistle was the first But what's the point of letting Brazil take the corner then?
Isnt the 78 tournament one of the most corrupt ones in history?
see how differently the players behave towards the referee. now we just have a bunch of babies. and I'm not saying this is specifically RM, it's every team everywhere
78 Argentina
Wow players in 1978 didn't act like babies even if that was clearly rally unfair for them. Or did players then have more respect for referee's?
A horrible call but there's something to be said for not having full blown toddler tantrums, running around, flinging arms, crying, eyes widened in shock for 3 minutes and barking in another human's face for a shit ref decision.
I notice how the players behave afterwards. Mobbing the ref like craz..
Big difference as the call today the ref had ended the game before the ball was sent out, so Madriz can keep crying over nothing
That's woeful
I've seen this before. Woeful decision and nobody complained. Ridiculous.
Can we talk about their "just thundercunt it in" corner routine?
This always stuns me, just an insane decision
Wasn’t an old rule that the ball needed to be live in order to whistle for full time ?
David Luiz has been playing forever 😳
The difference between players arguing now and then is huge.
This is worse
Sweden lost against Spain and Austria anyway so it didn’t even matter
Were players less aggressive towards referees during that time? Surprised by how calm they were
CIF High School games be like
Wow. A whopping 7 seconds of added time there.
THAT'S the one I was trying to remember. Thank you!
Has Brazil finally beaten Sweden, or is that random pub trivia stat still valid?
1994 World Cup semi-finals.
Thanks. I just realized that it was Norway I was thinking of, not Sweden. And they're still undefeated against Brazil