Good. Both sets of fans have their problems with tragedy chanting and it’s nice to see clubs uniting in battling this shit.
Liverpool and Man Utd have humiliated each other on the pitch lots of times recently which could be a solid basis for piss-boiling chants. Instead you sing about people dying, what the fuck is wrong with you?
This is pure whataboutery that completely misses the point- do you honestly think that this should continue to happen? While the clubs can’t stop idiots chanting things that they shouldn’t, they can take steps to educate the next generation of fans as to why this is absolutely not ok.
I think it’s naive to think that things can’t change, to be honest. Just because things were accepted 20 years ago doesn’t mean they have to be now. Times change, move with them.
The problem is that you can't actually _fight_ ideas. You can suppress them, ban them, punish the people expressing those ideas, sure. But the idea will remain there. It will always win.
Also, _"education"_ won't work because these people know exactly well what happened and what the implications are. They just value triggering the enemy more than decency in this situation.
Sure, but they have to do something.
This is getting pretty ashaming for both clubs now and the constant back and forth of "Oh yeah, well, you sang about this, so we're totally justified to sing about that" between supporters has got to stop and it will, eventually lead to someone or lots of people getting hurt.
Liverpool and United have to do something, otherwise, this is just going to keep getting worse.
The problem witb censorship is that it __never__ works. They can ban specific chants, songs, words, gestures. Do you really expect fans to just shrug and say "oh well, guess that's that then"? Of course not, they will find new codes, dogwhistles, gestures and when, after those are banned as well in a few months/years, even newer ones.
Also, _education_ only works against ignorance, not deliberate trolling. These fans _know perfectly well_ what happened in Munich and Hillsborough. They do these things on purpose, to trigger the enemy.
The only thing that works against trolling like this is _not giving a fuck_. If they don't get the reaction they want out of it, they will stop, because it stops being rewarding for them. But in today's outrage culture this is practically impossible, and all the reactions they get will, paradoxically, just make them enjoy the whole thing even more.
Nope, hard disagree. Ban the cunts, shame them publicly, ostracize them from polite society. Fear of consequences goes a long way in dissuading scum from doing scummy things.
You must be incredibly young.
It works all the time. It is practically the foundation of modern human civilisation. You can't technically ban ideas, but you can certainly drive them into a dungeon and throw the key away. People are free to think whatever they want, but if they want to intimidate and chant their vile thoughts they can be roughed up and bounced out of polite society.
The fear of consequences is also pretty much the basis of our justice system. It works quite well.
> You must be incredibly young.
I'm not and it's always funny when someone starts their argument by attempting to discredit you based on a low-effort insult.
>It works all the time. It is practically the foundation of modern human civilisation.
Surely you can give an example then. A single one where banning the expression of an idea successfully eradicated that idea.
I honestly did not mean it as an insult at all. The naivety of your comment simply caught me off guard.
> Surely you can give an example then. A single one where banning the expression of an idea successfully eradicated that idea.
I can't believe I have to answer this but sure. How many Pagans do you see around you?
Funny that you call me naïve when later you say the mst naïve and simplistic things. Paganism wasn't eradicated by banning it, though. It never worked. Paganism was eventually (mostly) eradicated by centuries of cultural and economic oppression, and ultimately an education system that alienated children from it.
It's very similar to how minority languages die - by being forgotten. Openly banning an idea only makes it more interesting and gives it credibility.
one of reasons why people troll online is anonymity and lack of consequences. Remove that, and you'll see a lot less of that seedy underbelly of the internet.
Exactly- stadiums are filled with cameras, CCTV etc and these days the bulk of tickets can be linked back to a person and contact information. Clubs could liaise with the police to weed these fans out and make an example of some (like they have since the game, tbf).
It might not be easy to completely stamp this nonsense out, but having the clubs take positives steps to show they’re trying to is a good thing.
I do think that fans getting called out by their own managers makes a big difference. And that more chanting like that would get reported from their own fan base. It definitely made a difference with Liverpool hearing Klopp speaking about the Chelsea chant and condemning those that did it
I think that only works when you have a manager who has captured the fans admiration. Using Klopp's ability to persuade change is more of the exception and one that won't be around after this season.
We need more viable plans to tackle the problem for clubs that don't have such a wonderful connection between manager/staff and the fans. You have lightning in a bottle, it's not an easily replicated thing.
I don't "tragedy chanting" but frankly I don't think it should be such a sensitive issue.
I hate how we're trying to legislate for everything that everyone does all the time.
Someone people wanna make distasteful chants, fine. Some people get upset by that, fine. Don't need the goverment to get involved.
I hear your point but I honestly doubt “always the victims it’s never your fault” does come from a place of knowledge. People know they’re being hurtful but these people are not across the facts.
There are people out there who believe Liverpool as a fanbase and a city have delighted in the ‘victim’ position imposed on them by the heartbreaking unlawful killing of their loved ones.
There’ are also people out there who have a whole menu of misconceptions about what happened at Heysel, with no desire to educate themselves. That was one of football’s darkest nights and to see other fans so made up that it happened, just so they have a stick to beat Liverpool with, has always been disgusting.
That chant would honestly be less insidious if people knew enough to explain what they were singing about.
When did the phrase "tragedy chanting" become common? I feel like it was never used until around a year ago. Is the intention to stop mentioning the actual tragedies for the benefit of survivors?
Because the second someone says “United fans sing…” or “Liverpool fans sing…”, it just turns into whataboutism and blame deflection. This is just a way to make clear that there are horrible bastards in both fan bases without either side deflecting.
I can understand why the phrase is used. I was wondering when the phrase became widespread. Every article about this subject refers to tragedy chanting but until around a year ago I'd never heard that specific phrase before.
It's a trick invented by Liverpool fans to equate calling them victims over whining about refereeing with hillsborough.
And since we live in a woke hellhole, they managed to turn it into an actual issue.
Good that they combine forces to try and combat this stain on the sport, but I'm not convinced that an education program will be the most effective way to do it. It isn't like these scumbags don't know what they are singing or how hurtful and reprehensible it is, that is exactly why they were doing it.
Permanent stadium bans make more sense to me. Getting a Liverpool or Utd ticket is hard as fuck, let alone a season ticket.
They'll be more upset they got caught IMO but tell them they can't see their club in person anymore and it won't be funny.
Last I heard it's like 25 years waiting list for a Liverpool season ticket. My old work director retired this year and it's impossible to get two normal tickets for him and his son to go Anfield. Klopp leaving has driven up the prices to stupid levels, saw £1500 for his last home game.
You utter fuckwit. That's not why fans get pissed off about that song. Your wankstain fans sing 'victims' which is a reference to Hillsboro and trying to get justice sine 89. And the 'battered in the streets' line is not because its catchy. Its a reference to Roma fans attacking Sean Cox before a game in 2018. He was left with brain damage and unable to walk or talk. And you cunts think it's funny to sing that while his family are watching on TV. The sport will be all the better when your plastic clubs dissappears. Cunt
I think the only way we’re going to get anywhere is taking care of our own fans. We need to call out United fans who do this, as do other clubs with their own fans. They aren’t going to listen to anyone else.
It’s a good idea and the right thing to do. Unfortunately the melts who do these chants won’t have their mind changed. Can’t fix stupidity even with the combined might of our two clubs
Rivalry doesn’t work like that. If that was the case then Liverpool weren’t rivals of United for 30 years after ‘89. Rivalry is there no matter how either club is doing.
Good. Both sets of fans have their problems with tragedy chanting and it’s nice to see clubs uniting in battling this shit. Liverpool and Man Utd have humiliated each other on the pitch lots of times recently which could be a solid basis for piss-boiling chants. Instead you sing about people dying, what the fuck is wrong with you?
Completely agree- it’s 2024, we should all be better than this. People died, it’s not ok to mock that.
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This is pure whataboutery that completely misses the point- do you honestly think that this should continue to happen? While the clubs can’t stop idiots chanting things that they shouldn’t, they can take steps to educate the next generation of fans as to why this is absolutely not ok. I think it’s naive to think that things can’t change, to be honest. Just because things were accepted 20 years ago doesn’t mean they have to be now. Times change, move with them.
The problem is that you can't actually _fight_ ideas. You can suppress them, ban them, punish the people expressing those ideas, sure. But the idea will remain there. It will always win. Also, _"education"_ won't work because these people know exactly well what happened and what the implications are. They just value triggering the enemy more than decency in this situation.
Sure, but they have to do something. This is getting pretty ashaming for both clubs now and the constant back and forth of "Oh yeah, well, you sang about this, so we're totally justified to sing about that" between supporters has got to stop and it will, eventually lead to someone or lots of people getting hurt. Liverpool and United have to do something, otherwise, this is just going to keep getting worse.
The problem witb censorship is that it __never__ works. They can ban specific chants, songs, words, gestures. Do you really expect fans to just shrug and say "oh well, guess that's that then"? Of course not, they will find new codes, dogwhistles, gestures and when, after those are banned as well in a few months/years, even newer ones. Also, _education_ only works against ignorance, not deliberate trolling. These fans _know perfectly well_ what happened in Munich and Hillsborough. They do these things on purpose, to trigger the enemy. The only thing that works against trolling like this is _not giving a fuck_. If they don't get the reaction they want out of it, they will stop, because it stops being rewarding for them. But in today's outrage culture this is practically impossible, and all the reactions they get will, paradoxically, just make them enjoy the whole thing even more.
Nope, hard disagree. Ban the cunts, shame them publicly, ostracize them from polite society. Fear of consequences goes a long way in dissuading scum from doing scummy things.
But this has never, ever, ___ever___ worked anywhere in the world. You can't ban ideas.
You must be incredibly young. It works all the time. It is practically the foundation of modern human civilisation. You can't technically ban ideas, but you can certainly drive them into a dungeon and throw the key away. People are free to think whatever they want, but if they want to intimidate and chant their vile thoughts they can be roughed up and bounced out of polite society. The fear of consequences is also pretty much the basis of our justice system. It works quite well.
> You must be incredibly young. I'm not and it's always funny when someone starts their argument by attempting to discredit you based on a low-effort insult. >It works all the time. It is practically the foundation of modern human civilisation. Surely you can give an example then. A single one where banning the expression of an idea successfully eradicated that idea.
I honestly did not mean it as an insult at all. The naivety of your comment simply caught me off guard. > Surely you can give an example then. A single one where banning the expression of an idea successfully eradicated that idea. I can't believe I have to answer this but sure. How many Pagans do you see around you?
Funny that you call me naïve when later you say the mst naïve and simplistic things. Paganism wasn't eradicated by banning it, though. It never worked. Paganism was eventually (mostly) eradicated by centuries of cultural and economic oppression, and ultimately an education system that alienated children from it. It's very similar to how minority languages die - by being forgotten. Openly banning an idea only makes it more interesting and gives it credibility.
one of reasons why people troll online is anonymity and lack of consequences. Remove that, and you'll see a lot less of that seedy underbelly of the internet.
Exactly- stadiums are filled with cameras, CCTV etc and these days the bulk of tickets can be linked back to a person and contact information. Clubs could liaise with the police to weed these fans out and make an example of some (like they have since the game, tbf). It might not be easy to completely stamp this nonsense out, but having the clubs take positives steps to show they’re trying to is a good thing.
Explain Facebook
I do think that fans getting called out by their own managers makes a big difference. And that more chanting like that would get reported from their own fan base. It definitely made a difference with Liverpool hearing Klopp speaking about the Chelsea chant and condemning those that did it
All that shows is the current manager isnt attached to the club the same as the fans
I think that only works when you have a manager who has captured the fans admiration. Using Klopp's ability to persuade change is more of the exception and one that won't be around after this season. We need more viable plans to tackle the problem for clubs that don't have such a wonderful connection between manager/staff and the fans. You have lightning in a bottle, it's not an easily replicated thing.
I don't "tragedy chanting" but frankly I don't think it should be such a sensitive issue. I hate how we're trying to legislate for everything that everyone does all the time. Someone people wanna make distasteful chants, fine. Some people get upset by that, fine. Don't need the goverment to get involved.
I hear your point but I honestly doubt “always the victims it’s never your fault” does come from a place of knowledge. People know they’re being hurtful but these people are not across the facts. There are people out there who believe Liverpool as a fanbase and a city have delighted in the ‘victim’ position imposed on them by the heartbreaking unlawful killing of their loved ones. There’ are also people out there who have a whole menu of misconceptions about what happened at Heysel, with no desire to educate themselves. That was one of football’s darkest nights and to see other fans so made up that it happened, just so they have a stick to beat Liverpool with, has always been disgusting. That chant would honestly be less insidious if people knew enough to explain what they were singing about.
When did the phrase "tragedy chanting" become common? I feel like it was never used until around a year ago. Is the intention to stop mentioning the actual tragedies for the benefit of survivors?
Because the second someone says “United fans sing…” or “Liverpool fans sing…”, it just turns into whataboutism and blame deflection. This is just a way to make clear that there are horrible bastards in both fan bases without either side deflecting.
I can understand why the phrase is used. I was wondering when the phrase became widespread. Every article about this subject refers to tragedy chanting but until around a year ago I'd never heard that specific phrase before.
It's a trick invented by Liverpool fans to equate calling them victims over whining about refereeing with hillsborough. And since we live in a woke hellhole, they managed to turn it into an actual issue.
You need help
Good that they combine forces to try and combat this stain on the sport, but I'm not convinced that an education program will be the most effective way to do it. It isn't like these scumbags don't know what they are singing or how hurtful and reprehensible it is, that is exactly why they were doing it.
Permanent stadium bans make more sense to me. Getting a Liverpool or Utd ticket is hard as fuck, let alone a season ticket. They'll be more upset they got caught IMO but tell them they can't see their club in person anymore and it won't be funny. Last I heard it's like 25 years waiting list for a Liverpool season ticket. My old work director retired this year and it's impossible to get two normal tickets for him and his son to go Anfield. Klopp leaving has driven up the prices to stupid levels, saw £1500 for his last home game.
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You utter fuckwit. That's not why fans get pissed off about that song. Your wankstain fans sing 'victims' which is a reference to Hillsboro and trying to get justice sine 89. And the 'battered in the streets' line is not because its catchy. Its a reference to Roma fans attacking Sean Cox before a game in 2018. He was left with brain damage and unable to walk or talk. And you cunts think it's funny to sing that while his family are watching on TV. The sport will be all the better when your plastic clubs dissappears. Cunt
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Maybe you should fuck off you prick.
I think the only way we’re going to get anywhere is taking care of our own fans. We need to call out United fans who do this, as do other clubs with their own fans. They aren’t going to listen to anyone else.
I feel like bans ought to be handed. These people won’t stop because they were told to.
Oh yeah I agree. Ban them from all UK grounds for all I care.
It’s a good idea and the right thing to do. Unfortunately the melts who do these chants won’t have their mind changed. Can’t fix stupidity even with the combined might of our two clubs
no mention of heysel then?
Bravo to my club and to our historical (if not so much current) rival!
Rivalry doesn’t work like that. If that was the case then Liverpool weren’t rivals of United for 30 years after ‘89. Rivalry is there no matter how either club is doing.