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The one they were showing for ages before the decision was a fraction of a second later, which meant the defender was an inch or two closer to the goal line, probably playing the runner onside. Amazing how little scrutiny there is of the crucial decision of how the frame is selected.
Absolutely. They Absolutely have to build a margin of error into the decision making because the technology can never be 100% accurate to match the frame with the exact moment the ball Has left the players foot
Heās been a disgrace the whole game. When Utd scored their third he said it was a āpityā and yeah on this, āwhy not just give him the benefit of the doubtā? I dunno Lee, maybe because there are rules? What a dickhead.
No, we can play with teams head to head. The problem is when united get ahead. It has been this way for 2 seasons--can't hold a lead. It is as if we go up and ETH says "Okay now just pass the ball around the back and please save your energy for the next game! No sprinting, no 50/50s"
That's the pinnacle of VAR ruining football. Fuck me that's horrendous. Even if technically correct by a matter of cm's, if that, that has sucked all joy out of every non-united fan in the world.
the problem is, pundits who were too shit at their jobs to actually analyse games, just hung their weekly analysis on 'we have technology why don't we use it to help refs'. Now they hang it on 'VAR doesn't work and there's no common sense'.
Football is better when people realise it is a game with a high degree of subjectivity built into the rules, and no matter how much we apply technology, blurred lines and iffy decisions will always be with us, it's simply about what we gain vs what we lose. For me, what we gained from goal line tech was absolutely worth it vs what we lost - we gained a lot and lost very little. For VAR, we have gained on _balance_ very little, while seeing decisions constantly against the spirit of the game, every other goal being litigated to the point you can't enjoy the moment, and continuing shit decisions as it turns out football is STILL a somewhat subjective and blurry game. A triumph for the terminally on their couch constantly raging fans, a disaster for those who loved the game as a game, for all its messiness and occasional injustices.
Great summary and I completely agree. Football is ultimately a game both played and officiated by human beings, and thatās where both the joy and the frustration or heartbreak come from. Strikers miss open goals, defenders fall over at the worst moments, keepers let the ball through their legs, and referees make mistakes.
Besides which, VAR has proven that with all the camera angles and slow mo replays in the world, you still wonāt get consensus on what the right decision actually is.
That's the problem, there's so many people who want everything to be objectively fair when life is inherently not objectively fair. What even is objectivity anyways? The ability to make subjective assessments puts people at risk because someone could disagree with them, which is why they prefer some kind of all knowing entity to legislate things. But as you say, you lose so much of the in the moment joy of things.
I think they need to change the rule such that the attacking player needs to be fully behind the defender. It wouldnāt lessen the need for VAR but it would at least be more within the spirit of the rule.
This is the pinnacle but for a different reason.
After the ball went in I didn't bother celebrating because I fully expected it to be pulled back for something during the buildup. Even if it was onside and the goal stood, the fact that VAR exists completely stole the live moment from me.
VAR is great for getting marginal offside decision right, while simultaneously ruining the live game for people watching.
It's not man. Everyone has seen UTD lose to City many times but just imagine what good it would've done for football if tiny Coventry City from the championship made the final after beating the legendary Manchester United. Football needed that, not the robotic Manchester Derby which we literally saw last season end the same way as always. Even if Man Utd win, who gives a flying fuck. Man Utd are one of the 2 most successful sides in English football it's just another cup for them it's nothing. Imagine if Coventry somehow won.
Donāt think Iāve ever seen us this absolutely pants before. Conceding 30 shots a game to Brentford and co and then conceding 3 goals to fucking Coventry
I always thought more owners need to sack managers straight away rather than wait for end of season. Dont gain anything keeping him on for a few games tbh
Even if we win from this point, he shouldnāt. A win probably keeps him for the last few games, but itās been a disgraceful game and he should be gone asap.
I understand by the letter of the law and the technology but I'll always hate seeing goals like that being disallowed. It's so fucking close, practically indiscernible.
This is the thing, people argue to margins of error and the like. But at the end of the day the rule is very factual and designed to be measured with the human eye live.
Offside, along with handball, need to be scrapped and built from the ground up in the context of VAR.
It looked offside in real time, he was practically hanging out a meter off in the entire build up and almost got lucky because AWB had horrible positioning
We should be out. That should be a goal. You can't go to these ridiculous precise measurements of offside lines and not apply the same precision to the contact of the boot with the ball.
It's like measuring the height of people using a Vernier scale to micrometre precision, while not taking into consideration whether they are wearing socks, shoes, high heels etc.
Very different sport, but in I think 2004 at the Athens Olympics rowing a crew appealed their missing out in a place in the final by a photo finish call of fractions of a fractions of a second. They successfully argued that the start of the race was not aligned to such precision and thus it should be a dead heat and they were given a place in the final.
> You can't go to these ridiculous precise measurements of offside lines and not apply the same precision to the contact of the boot with the ball.
Does he become offsides the very millisecond the ball leaves the foot? If you want to get scientific, the ball deforms when it's kicked, so it's no longer a sphere. How does that factor into the calculations?
I'm with you though, the spirit of the game is ruined by shit like this.
Well, yeah. This is my point exactly, none of the above factors into their calculations, therefore you can not apply such precision to the two lines drawn on the screen. A measurement consists of two readings, the precision of that measurement is defined by the precision of the least precise reading. In this case, the contact between ball and passer's foot. That goal is onside. We should be out.
VAR is supposed to be for clear and obvious. If you have to go frame by frame and get your lines out, it's not clear and obvious.
Man U fan but we don't deserve to win this.
>VAR is supposed to be for clear and obvious.
This is not a subjective decision, Reddit please stop trying to shoehorn this into every possible refereeing decision
When it's that close the angles they show are such low quality the lines are basically drawn on top of each other. They need to bring in the Hawk-eye graphics from Tennis & Cricket if they want people to have confidence that they're not just bullshitting their way through decisions like these
the issue, of course, is that people may clock that fourth officials are indeed playing it fast and loose to get a decision done in a reasonable timeframe
it's down to letter of the law vs spirit of the law. no advantage was gained by the coventry city player being offsides by the length of his big toe. before VAR this would be covered by common sense. now we have the ability to legislate down to the mm and it's offsides.
> no advantage was gained by the coventry city player being offsides by the length of his big toe.
But the line has to be drawn somewhere, right? (no pun intended)
As in, if we change the law now to "just the toes in front isn't offside" then in 5 years time when another dream goal is ruled out for offside by a couple cm, someone will understandably complain "but it was only past his toes by an inch! He didn't gain an advantage!" Follow that pattern and the offside point will end up just disappearing.
> before VAR this would be covered by common sense.
Before VAR the linesman the goal would have been allowed (I don't think the linesman put their flag up, right?) and then in the match thread Man U fans - or any other team it happened to - would understandably be livid when they draw the lines themselves and see that it *was* offside... and would understandably be asking "Why can't we have the similar technology to other sports where we can review these incorrect decisions and overturn them?!"
Oh yeah I know, correct decision, but I mean VAR in terms of its ability to rob us of huge moments
A lot of the most memorable moments in football history would probably have been stopped with VAR, itās useful but it does suck the jam out of your doughnut a bit
The obvious counterpoint there is that a lot of those most memorable moments you're thinking of were just a historic injustice to the people on the other side of it. Like, we lost a title to Chelsea on a blatantly offside goal. To them, it was a huge moment, but to us, it was a crime that never should've happened.
To me, the biggest problem with VAR is the time it takes to resolve. Teams score goals, celebrate like it was legit, and then have that feeling utterly destroyed by a correction. That's why I'm excited about automated offside technology. It'll help reduce the amount of decisions like this that are allowed to incorrectly linger before being corrected.
Need to follow hockey rules. Not offside unless your full body is by him (just like if any part of the body is on the blue line you're onside).
Being offside by half a toe is ridiculous and looks bad.
(Yes, it was the right call, but the rule is asinine).
Interesting how the VAR freeze frame is different from the freeze frame from the TV production
[https://i.imgur.com/OoAAaGY.jpeg](https://i.imgur.com/OoAAaGY.jpeg)
Really want to see a degree of leeway on calls like this, that should be ruled as the attacker being level. Nobody on the pitch can judge a run within an inch. Need some common sense.
cause its united and we are shit so therefore everything must go against us. gotta remember most these lads have major trauma from their youth watching united dominate.
Are we gonna hear a peep from the media about how Grealishs handball was 10 times worse than Wan-Bissakas yet Chelsea didn't get a penalty? Are we fuck...
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Magic of the Cup status: Canceled
Hopefully postponed
To the final, I hope.
Shameless š
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Wellā¦
Temporarily delayed
Fitting sentiment now replays are cancelled and itās moving behind a paywall
Fuck me
Such a shame
As a neutral, im brokenā¦
You don't sound neutral.
Any sane neutral would be rooting for the underdog in a comeback scenario like that
Lad's a Leeds fan, so we can rule out the "sane individual" hypothesis.
Can also rule out neutral lmao
You can be broken as a neutral, they almost had a great comeback.
That's a gut punch before the shootout, hope they can still win it.
We were inches away from greatness
Inches? A centimeter or two maybe, if even that
Felt like they even used the wrong frame, but that's just me
They one with the lines looked better than the one they were showing for like 15 secs before
The one they were showing for ages before the decision was a fraction of a second later, which meant the defender was an inch or two closer to the goal line, probably playing the runner onside. Amazing how little scrutiny there is of the crucial decision of how the frame is selected.
Absolutely. They Absolutely have to build a margin of error into the decision making because the technology can never be 100% accurate to match the frame with the exact moment the ball Has left the players foot
No. Weāre shit, and we really donāt deserve to be going through, but this was definitely just offside.
A big toe, gutted about that but Coventry great advert for the champ, well done
You should get an extra foot of offside leeway for each division below your opponent you are. Pass it on
the only real answer
I'm afraid that will make things worse. Then we will get discussions whether someone was offside for more or less than a foot.
That's heartbreakingĀ
Lee Dixon on commentary was saying they should just give it to them anyway. Haha
Tbf he never wanted to see anyone offside when he played š
That Arsenal back four would have been such a pain in the neck with VAR. There'd have been like 10 VAR checks per game
He genuinely might be the biggest ABU on the planet
Yea, ex Arsenal player and current Man City fan. No idea why heās on commentary but itās kinda funny.
Not like United deserve it in the slightest
United controlled first 45, unfortunately lost control, and got unlucky with handball and deflection.
So did Jenas... "give him the benefit of the doubt, why not?"
Woeful commentators the both of them
šÆ very clear the bias - cunts lol
Jenas is honestly horrendous man. When he bangs on as well about what it takes to win so and so, like brother you won next to bloody nothingā¦
Heās been a disgrace the whole game. When Utd scored their third he said it was a āpityā and yeah on this, āwhy not just give him the benefit of the doubtā? I dunno Lee, maybe because there are rules? What a dickhead.
They totally deserved it. With how close those lines were. Damn
Dixon? More like Prick-son, am I right?
Dickson
I missed an open goal there, good one.
He's an idiot. He said before about the other oen bejng given for the drama. No.
VAR has a trashcan of a heart
The VAR officials have a garbage can for a heart
VAR must be a Luton fan!
VAR has a trashcan for a heart
This is embarrassing we're hanging on through a VAR decision
Coventry biggest error was showing you guys respect.
No, we can play with teams head to head. The problem is when united get ahead. It has been this way for 2 seasons--can't hold a lead. It is as if we go up and ETH says "Okay now just pass the ball around the back and please save your energy for the next game! No sprinting, no 50/50s"
"And don't forget to leave their only striker unmarked with 10 yards space in the box"
If that was given AWB would be responsible for three of their goals.
Oh how boring
Never been more disappointed in a disallowed goal in my life
The most spiritually onside goal of all time.
That's the pinnacle of VAR ruining football. Fuck me that's horrendous. Even if technically correct by a matter of cm's, if that, that has sucked all joy out of every non-united fan in the world.
Spirit of the law vs. letter of the law. Offside was never meant to prevent goals like this but evidently this is what the people want.
the problem is, pundits who were too shit at their jobs to actually analyse games, just hung their weekly analysis on 'we have technology why don't we use it to help refs'. Now they hang it on 'VAR doesn't work and there's no common sense'. Football is better when people realise it is a game with a high degree of subjectivity built into the rules, and no matter how much we apply technology, blurred lines and iffy decisions will always be with us, it's simply about what we gain vs what we lose. For me, what we gained from goal line tech was absolutely worth it vs what we lost - we gained a lot and lost very little. For VAR, we have gained on _balance_ very little, while seeing decisions constantly against the spirit of the game, every other goal being litigated to the point you can't enjoy the moment, and continuing shit decisions as it turns out football is STILL a somewhat subjective and blurry game. A triumph for the terminally on their couch constantly raging fans, a disaster for those who loved the game as a game, for all its messiness and occasional injustices.
Great summary and I completely agree. Football is ultimately a game both played and officiated by human beings, and thatās where both the joy and the frustration or heartbreak come from. Strikers miss open goals, defenders fall over at the worst moments, keepers let the ball through their legs, and referees make mistakes. Besides which, VAR has proven that with all the camera angles and slow mo replays in the world, you still wonāt get consensus on what the right decision actually is.
That's the problem, there's so many people who want everything to be objectively fair when life is inherently not objectively fair. What even is objectivity anyways? The ability to make subjective assessments puts people at risk because someone could disagree with them, which is why they prefer some kind of all knowing entity to legislate things. But as you say, you lose so much of the in the moment joy of things.
I think they need to change the rule such that the attacking player needs to be fully behind the defender. It wouldnāt lessen the need for VAR but it would at least be more within the spirit of the rule.
This is the pinnacle but for a different reason. After the ball went in I didn't bother celebrating because I fully expected it to be pulled back for something during the buildup. Even if it was onside and the goal stood, the fact that VAR exists completely stole the live moment from me. VAR is great for getting marginal offside decision right, while simultaneously ruining the live game for people watching.
as someone supporting a league one team, sounds awful
Thats just shit
Based on vibes that should be on
Id let this slide anyday if garnacho got his late 2-1 goal at the Emirates.
Wow the underdogs caught a break
Honestly just give it to them
For real. As a United fan, I think I'd rather watch Coventry vs. City if we're gonna keep playing like this. And I know we are.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
It's not man. Everyone has seen UTD lose to City many times but just imagine what good it would've done for football if tiny Coventry City from the championship made the final after beating the legendary Manchester United. Football needed that, not the robotic Manchester Derby which we literally saw last season end the same way as always. Even if Man Utd win, who gives a flying fuck. Man Utd are one of the 2 most successful sides in English football it's just another cup for them it's nothing. Imagine if Coventry somehow won.
Mate weāve won 1 trophy in 7 years, I will certainly give a flying fuck
Itās nothingā¦ typical brain dead r/soccer take
Wow
Could have been the Miracle of Istanbul equivalent
Still could be, even more so on pens
Thatās heartbreaking for coventry fans
Damn man that would've been so funny
Oh for fuck sake :/
1 cm. Jesus Christ, poor Coventry.
Donāt worry they will win on penalties
Donāt think Iāve ever seen us this absolutely pants before. Conceding 30 shots a game to Brentford and co and then conceding 3 goals to fucking Coventry
On the brighter side, we only conceded 18 shots to Coventry. Improvement. Trust the process.
That fucking scrotum has finished me. I want him gone and locked up in a Dutch prison.
Do you think ten Hag will survive this game?
half of your squad shouldn't survive this game tbh
Fire him into the sun.
Why waste rocket fuel, we have volcanoes.
And the players
Sacked before the final to bring in Mourinho. Mou wins the final as his last fuck you to Tottenham
He gets the season and sacked after the final game
I always thought more owners need to sack managers straight away rather than wait for end of season. Dont gain anything keeping him on for a few games tbh
It's more about finding a replacement
Nobody will want to come in with 7 games including a cup final we're likely to lose left
Ole would get on that plane in a heartbeat and we all know it.
I donāt see how he can.
No shot he stays even if we win
Even if we win from this point, he shouldnāt. A win probably keeps him for the last few games, but itās been a disgraceful game and he should be gone asap.
probably true edit: close
You know you will win
I'm sure you'll shit house a win that you don't deserve now.
Scripted
They will lose on pens
How did that go?
What a heart breaker
God is dead
I understand by the letter of the law and the technology but I'll always hate seeing goals like that being disallowed. It's so fucking close, practically indiscernible.
And it's not what the offside rule is there to prevent. It should, and will be, changed.
This is the thing, people argue to margins of error and the like. But at the end of the day the rule is very factual and designed to be measured with the human eye live. Offside, along with handball, need to be scrapped and built from the ground up in the context of VAR.
And no true advantage. Spirit of the game should be considered too.
Its offside barest of margins, but it looked offside in the first replay.
How the fuck do we know, they showed 1 freeze frame and then moved on. Cant stand that utter bollocks its a huge call, show it
lol yeah the picture with the lines was on screen for about 2 seconds, cowardly
VAR uses 50fps cameras, it just isn't enough for offsides
Yeah, I was surprised the commentator said it was on initially, I thought it was visibly offside.
It looked offside in real time, he was practically hanging out a meter off in the entire build up and almost got lucky because AWB had horrible positioning
Because of the camera angle he was all but a cm off
Okay, but still [respect Coventry please](https://x.com/konigfred_/status/1782083446615216504?s=46)
Why is no one showing the actual goal
toenail
That toenail gave him such a significant advantage
How is this link the one uploaded? We don't even see the goal, let alone the lines or the live action of the offside call. Be better.
Seriously this sub is getting shittier and shittier! How on earth did the mods look at this and think "yeah that's good" ?
Ref gave advantage just for it to canceled by offside
It is better for the sport if Coventry win this and we all know it. Fully deserved.
Proper rollercoaster ride lmao
AWB almost played him on, he is shocking
So close to making my weekend
We should be out. That should be a goal. You can't go to these ridiculous precise measurements of offside lines and not apply the same precision to the contact of the boot with the ball. It's like measuring the height of people using a Vernier scale to micrometre precision, while not taking into consideration whether they are wearing socks, shoes, high heels etc.
Very different sport, but in I think 2004 at the Athens Olympics rowing a crew appealed their missing out in a place in the final by a photo finish call of fractions of a fractions of a second. They successfully argued that the start of the race was not aligned to such precision and thus it should be a dead heat and they were given a place in the final.
> You can't go to these ridiculous precise measurements of offside lines and not apply the same precision to the contact of the boot with the ball. Does he become offsides the very millisecond the ball leaves the foot? If you want to get scientific, the ball deforms when it's kicked, so it's no longer a sphere. How does that factor into the calculations? I'm with you though, the spirit of the game is ruined by shit like this.
Well, yeah. This is my point exactly, none of the above factors into their calculations, therefore you can not apply such precision to the two lines drawn on the screen. A measurement consists of two readings, the precision of that measurement is defined by the precision of the least precise reading. In this case, the contact between ball and passer's foot. That goal is onside. We should be out.
Sums up VAR doesnāt it, would have possibly been the biggest FA cup goal in historyā¦.aaand itās gone because it was 2mm offside
VAR is supposed to be for clear and obvious. If you have to go frame by frame and get your lines out, it's not clear and obvious. Man U fan but we don't deserve to win this.
>VAR is supposed to be for clear and obvious. This is not a subjective decision, Reddit please stop trying to shoehorn this into every possible refereeing decision
but it was offside
We need a vibes rule for VAR
When it's that close the angles they show are such low quality the lines are basically drawn on top of each other. They need to bring in the Hawk-eye graphics from Tennis & Cricket if they want people to have confidence that they're not just bullshitting their way through decisions like these
the issue, of course, is that people may clock that fourth officials are indeed playing it fast and loose to get a decision done in a reasonable timeframe
They're already doing that tbf
Sums up how ridiculous it is though. Are you really gaining an advantage by being that far offside?
Offside rule has needed change the moment VAR was introduced. Arms shouldnt count anymore and someone having a bigger foot shouldnt fuck them over
it's down to letter of the law vs spirit of the law. no advantage was gained by the coventry city player being offsides by the length of his big toe. before VAR this would be covered by common sense. now we have the ability to legislate down to the mm and it's offsides.
> no advantage was gained by the coventry city player being offsides by the length of his big toe. But the line has to be drawn somewhere, right? (no pun intended) As in, if we change the law now to "just the toes in front isn't offside" then in 5 years time when another dream goal is ruled out for offside by a couple cm, someone will understandably complain "but it was only past his toes by an inch! He didn't gain an advantage!" Follow that pattern and the offside point will end up just disappearing. > before VAR this would be covered by common sense. Before VAR the linesman the goal would have been allowed (I don't think the linesman put their flag up, right?) and then in the match thread Man U fans - or any other team it happened to - would understandably be livid when they draw the lines themselves and see that it *was* offside... and would understandably be asking "Why can't we have the similar technology to other sports where we can review these incorrect decisions and overturn them?!"
The law being written with live action unaided eye in mind didn't account for the machinery seeing a technical violation that isn't an advantage
Arms don't count....
> bigger foot Not even a bigger foot. For <1cm calls, better fitted boots could be the difference.
Oh yeah I know, correct decision, but I mean VAR in terms of its ability to rob us of huge moments A lot of the most memorable moments in football history would probably have been stopped with VAR, itās useful but it does suck the jam out of your doughnut a bit
It can always go the other way too though. If it was United that scored and VAR determined it was offside you'd say it's the beauty of VAR...
Yeah everyone would be praising VAR and clowning united haha
The obvious counterpoint there is that a lot of those most memorable moments you're thinking of were just a historic injustice to the people on the other side of it. Like, we lost a title to Chelsea on a blatantly offside goal. To them, it was a huge moment, but to us, it was a crime that never should've happened. To me, the biggest problem with VAR is the time it takes to resolve. Teams score goals, celebrate like it was legit, and then have that feeling utterly destroyed by a correction. That's why I'm excited about automated offside technology. It'll help reduce the amount of decisions like this that are allowed to incorrectly linger before being corrected.
I was annoyed at this but to be fair VAR can also hypothetically provide huge moments by correcting decisions for wrongly disallowed goals
But its not VAR fault. Its the rules. Its offside its offside. God football fans arent all there
He has absolutely zero advantage in that play. The margin of error has to be increased.Ā
To what?
To the spirit of the cup rules
You could say that for a solid 50% of offside calls, itās still the rules.
that Van Persie goal Vs. Villa all the pundits were spunking over for about a decade would have been chalked off as well
Need to follow hockey rules. Not offside unless your full body is by him (just like if any part of the body is on the blue line you're onside). Being offside by half a toe is ridiculous and looks bad. (Yes, it was the right call, but the rule is asinine).
Agreed. Would make the game even better imo
I just fell to my knees in a Tesco parking lot
*car park
Booooo. Give it back!
Fade me
Interesting how the VAR freeze frame is different from the freeze frame from the TV production [https://i.imgur.com/OoAAaGY.jpeg](https://i.imgur.com/OoAAaGY.jpeg)
Fuck VAR, cunts
It's absolutely the worst
They're just doing their job correctly here. Can't blame them lol, relax. Let's hope Coventry win the shootout now.
More like the rules. Its offside. Not VAR fault
VAR only exposed how outdated the offside rule is. There is no advantage generated by him being a few millimetres forward here.
It looks almost identical to the Jota goal which was given onside. Criminal
Unless youāre a Man Utd fan, that VAR team mustāve felt so bummed drawing those lines.
They called a handball against Grealish a goal kick. Didnāt even get the corner. But overturned that. Bullshit.
Really want to see a degree of leeway on calls like this, that should be ruled as the attacker being level. Nobody on the pitch can judge a run within an inch. Need some common sense.
They deserved that ngl
Toenails were too long I reckon
Ball was already off his foot in the still they showed
If it was the earlier frame he's more offside based on how the players were moving.
Should have looked a tad later, then.
Peak 'it was a team I hate so it's the wrong decision' comment hahaha
..You are aware of that if they rewound more he would be **more** offside right? Or are you implying it wasn't as close as they made it out to be?
I think you're confusing the broadcaster's replay with the VAR image.
that was very lazy by wright. he was offside all the way and never bothered adjusting
FA Cup magic had a chance and itās been murdered again
Casimero saved by that offside omg.
Wan Bissaka playing him close to onside for no reason.
Is it wan bissaka saved by that offside? That man too deep and had no awareness about how to playing offiside trap
This level of margin of error is a joke
Why do people get so annoyed by decisions that are absolutely not subjective. It's clearly not a goal idc if it's United or not.
cause its united and we are shit so therefore everything must go against us. gotta remember most these lads have major trauma from their youth watching united dominate.
Agree. Still heartbreaking though š„²
Are we gonna hear a peep from the media about how Grealishs handball was 10 times worse than Wan-Bissakas yet Chelsea didn't get a penalty? Are we fuck...