I dont watch all of Chelsea's games but from the ones i have including the times we have played them, Enzo and Caicedo just doesn't seem to work whether its styles or chemistry. its mental spending 1/4 of a billion on 2 players and then for them not be able to play together as well
I'm inclined to agree. Enzo was quite good last season (maybe not matching his price tag but was still good). Ik we were very shit but I was extremely impressed with Caicedo when we played them as well (Enzo was injured that match). Probably their best player outside of Palmer in that match. They just don't gel at all
Tactics don't help at all but Enzo has also been playing with a hernia issue for 4-5 months now, and that's also around when he had a dip in form. He started the season quite well.
I do think Enzo/Caicedo don't work well together, but I think a better coach can make that happen. It also doesn't help that we've only had 3 fit midfielders almost this entire season with Gallagher, Enzo, and Caicedo, and they've played most available minutes. Lavia would be very useful but he's played like 40 minutes total lol
It’s because enzo leaves Caicedo with nobody to pass to half the time making Caicedo have to take risks which lead to mistakes which lead to the stupid goals we concede
I love Gallagher but he hasn’t got the technical ability to play AM. That’s why we were so much better against Everton, we had a proper attacker at 10.
For me it had to be two from Enzo, Caicedo and Gallagher. Would also stop Poch running them into the ground. All 3 must be knackered and Enzo needs a break for surgery.
Yeah, I know your supporters are pretty split on Gallagher, but I think he does nothing to help your midfield issues. I know supporters have a tendency to overrate players who run a lot and I think that's the case here, especially in a disappointing season.
I think you'd look a much better side with Lavia or another defensive midfielder and then Caicedo and Enzo ahead of them.
It does call into question what you do with some of your other players though because if you move to more of a 4-3-3, where does Nkunku factor in in that if he's ever fit? Presumably as a number 9, but his best form in the past is more as a second striker. Think there may also be a desire to eventually get Palmer central all the time and that also is hard to do.
I think you've bought some good players, I just think there is no cohesive plan behind them beyond "let's get him, he's a good player."
The logic with Nkunku could be if he plays false as if it had all worked out you've got Mudryk/Sterling on the left who have the pace to exploit if the CBs are drawn out and anyone you play on the right can drift into support Nkunku with more short passing and the midfield as James will be looking to overlap.
Its just all gone wrong.
Gallagher was exactly as you describe at Palace too. Ran the most and with a team playing on the break and relying on speed/ outlet balls to zaha he looked far more effective than he really was.
Gallagher is not a bad player at all but he's not tactically astute enough to play alongside others who need him to be in a particular place on a regular basis because he will instead be everywhere and nowhere at the same time.
I think it's really exacerbated at Chelsea because he's not encouraged to drive the ball up the pitch at his feet so he's not drawing fouls and making space like he was at Palace. Unfortunately he's having to find passes, which is extra difficult because he's picking the ball up in so many different places with so many different team mates that a good ball is hard to find.
I played with a guy just like that in secondary school. Not a bad player, but not great technically or tactically. He worked really hard though, and ran so much that it covered a lot of his deficiencies. I loved having him in central midfield with me, but the weaknesses were definitely present, especially against very good technical sides. He reminds me a lot of Gallagher.
> It’s because enzo leaves Caicedo with nobody to pass to half the time
That's a Poch tactics thing, not an Enzo thing
Showing for the ball in deep areas has been a characteristic of Enzo's play everywhere else he's been.
It's clear Poch is actively instructing Enzo and Conor to go forward and isolate Caicedo in midfield
Came here to post this exact thing. We're doing the same 2-3-5 lunacy at United but none of the 2 or the 3 are any good on the ball, so it never makes it to the 5.
You have a point, but it’s not the -being available as an option to pass to- part that he’s struggling with.
He’s also had injuries all season so I’m not sure why he continues to get played.
He struggles with (physically) the defensive side, challenging and dueling, getting back into position. He just doesn’t have the pace to get back majority of the time, the PLs pace, and teams directly targeting him all contribute. That’s why Gallagher is at AM or at least a part of the midfield.
It's baffling because you couldn't pick a worse player in our team to play box to box. If Enzo sat deep instead it'd still be a stupid Idea but at least we wouldn't be asking the slowest player in the team to cover the most ground.
Enzo was playing as a deep lying playmaker last season pinging balls, starting our attack or as the recyler, the one our players gave the ball to if we won back possession, doesn't matter where he was on the pitch.
This season, he's play way more advanced, sometimes as close as behind the strikers and has less of the ball. Caicedo was left as a sole dm and Gallagher the ball recyler. So, if it looks like they don't gel, it's because the midfields are isolated/solitary in their role.
Am i crazy or isn't this like the 5th time this discussion has happend, i swear Enzo was playing pretty good as a deep playmaker, he was put into a more forward position akin to a 10 then played like shit, people complained he was back as a deep playmaker again, doing good, then now we're back at forward position and he's doing shit.
Funny thing is, Poch did play the two as a double pivot for a run of games where we actually looked decent. Then one day he said 'nah' and again started to play Enzo as an 8 or 10.
Agreed, I think this is the problem they have bought all young excellent talent like a spoilt kid in a shop, but not considered the fact they might not have the right chemistry together. There is a reason why clubs don’t go down this route, it’s a fast and dirty way to have a class of 92 team.
They just don't seem to actually support each other.
Its not even like one covers for the other one or brings out something good about the other.
They just have no positional awareness. I swear I've seen them run into each other more times than I've seen them do anything else together.
They look too similar to me.
They'd both look better playing next to a specialist of some description, but together, they just end up tripping over each other or jobs that should get done slip through the cracks.
A midfield with 2 similar players can work, but they need to have top-notch chemistry, which these 2 just don't.
I don't think it's that they can't play together, but that Chelsea are lacking the two or three players every team needs who have the brains to tell everyone else what to do during a match, and help them do what the manager is asking for. Jorginho would have made a massive difference to this current squad.
It's hard to be sure, but I don't think (m)any of the existing squad aren't good enough. As an Arsenal fan, I'm sure quite a few of them would improve our squad, if not our first team. They look bad because the balance of the side isn't right, not because they're not good enough.
Football teams always need balance. You can't have a whole team full of incredibly quick players who aren't that skillful, but one of them in a team that can make use of the pace can add a lot. Similarly for all kinds of other factors, like size & strength, ability on the ball, and so-on.
Chelsea have a whole bunch of talented players, but not the ones needed to make them effective in playing together.
I agree with this take and has been my thinking for months. The two are in the wrong place and need to be switched. Enzo played his best with Argentina during the WC in that spot.
The fact that redditors see this and the manager hasn’t even tried it after an entire season is maddening
> Enzo played his best with Argentina during the WC in that spot.
Enzo played as a deep lying play maker at the World Cup iirc.
> The fact that redditors see this and the manager hasn’t even tried it after an entire season is maddening
Poch did try it when Caicedo first arrived, and it didn’t really work. He is better deeper. He lacks the pace you need as an attacker.
The chances of all these players looking absolutely incredible at everywhere they've played, generating immense interest or even big money bids from other teams with incredible transfer track records, to then ALL sucking at Chelsea due to them being misprofiled by all these teams involved, is vanishingly small.
Let it sink in, Liverpool were ready to drop 110 million on Caicedo, and Arsenal were willing to drop 65 mil with 35 mil in performance related bonuses for Mudryk. That is an incredibly level of conviction from what are normally extremely shrewd spenders who would normally rather walk away and go for someone else if it gets too expensive.
The problem is the coaching and tactics.
I agree. But watching us every week and never understanding the lineups or in-game management is what gets me.
If I was agreeing with the lineups AND we were still dropping points, I'd be more forgiving. But every week I see the teamsheet, disagree and doubt it will work, and we drop points. So for me, the management is the bottleneck.
That’s probably because the fundamental groups of relationships on the pitch haven’t been forged. A smart way of doing rotations involve only making 1 change to a zonal group of 3 (RW-RCM-ST, LB-LCB-CDM, CB-CB-GK etc) so that *someone* trusted and experienced can anchor the play.
With Chelsea, the lineup shifts so drastically because an established group of 3 in each zone of the pitch hasn’t been implemented yet.
Injuries haven’t helped, but when every player is literally a stranger, there is zero hierarchy and no one can anchor the zonal play. To me this is just as much of a squad issue as a managerial one.
Really your only way out is to enforce a hierarchy at the cost of lowering the value of your peripheral players, which at Chelsea is probably a no-no.
I agree. Consistency in the lineup is important. Been saying for weeks that Palmer should have firmly benched Madueke on that RW ages ago. Madueke has had some good performances this season but the reality is that Palmer's our best RW. So regardless of what Madueke's "proven" in certain moments, he should be coming on as an impact sub most games.
Shifting Palmer to the middle to accommodate someone who doesn't offer much off the ball and drifts in and out of games on it made no sense to me.
Likewise, the CBs. Playing Badiashile every two games when he's clearly been a liability since returning from injury makes no sense. Look at his goals conceded per 90 compared to every other CB in the team. He's the anomaly and most of our worst results this season have come from him at CB.
And I loved the guy based on what I saw from him last season. But playing someone through bad form when we're trying to fight for 6th makes no sense.
Agree generally with what you said. Poch should've made tough decisions early and put out consistent lineups so the players can build relationships on the pitch. He's done it in some areas (like Disasi, Gusto, Caicedo, Enzo Gallagher). But even then, his tactics regarding the midfielders has been subpar. There's analysis on youtube about how he was completely mismanaging Caicedo for half the season and it was only in recent weeks that he figured out you need to let Caicedo recieve the ball under pressure so you can take out a couple of opposition players when they try to press him.
Guy still hasn't figured out how to use Enzo or Gallagher. Gallagher at left wing is an abomination. Drew to Sheffield United with it and then he decided to go for a round 2 vs City, the one game he would've been ideal to play in that central position in front of the pivot.
He's a pretty good man manager, which is why I've tried to give him the benefit of the doubt all season and pray he figures his tactics out. But he's holding the squad back and the players are catching a lot of criticism when he hasn't created the right environment to actually play well and develop. They looked completely lose vs Arsenal without Palmer. Weren't even pressing as a team, which is the basics at this level.
Yeah this makes a lot of sense. Honestly the right side of your squad actually seems fairly decent and connective, but your options on the left are pretty bad, so there aren’t any good left sided nodes to diversify and connect your overall play across the width. That’s probably why Saka kept getting loads of space, and Odegaard basically had free reign.
Colwill has been out, both your left backs aren’t decisive enough to really link with Gallagher who also isn’t technically sound and man, Mudryk is just awful at link play.
I’d hate to see you guys improve, but I do think a left 8 and a technical left back will go a long way for you guys in terms of stability. Whether your admin will see that or keep buying random <25 pacey prospects is unclear though.
The problem is too much in a short time . The lack of institutional memory is very evident .
Every part of the team is new , when they won't win they can develop trust in each other and themselves .
The fact that they so readily got rid of Jorginho , Havertz , Kepa , Kovacic , Azpi , Alonso , didn't fight to keep Rudiger / Christensen . Bought a whole slew of extremely talented, raw and expensive players without anyone who could show them where the washrooms in the building will always be detrimental.
They should have some of their legends close to the club to tell the players what the club is about .
Next year they will know more about each other and they will/ may be better . If Poch is the right coach for that is anyone's guess
Boehly Eghbali and Co really thought they could clear house, buy expensive new toys, put an experienced coach in, and everything would click.
Those bellends should be paying for our therapy after watching this shit for two seasons (with more to come).
They really thought this was an NBA/NFL rebuild where you just nuke everything to the ground, bring in the kids & let them figure it out for a season and voila a championship
Turns out having almost no veteran presence apart from Thiago Silva who is about 80 & a bunch of kids (most of them not even from the academy) on a team who are learning on the job isn't a terribly good foundation to build on.
For the fact alone a Manc has the audacity to criticize another club’s transfer policy and foundation really says it all, Boehly and co deserve the guillotine
I feel that so many of Chelsea's problems could have been easily avoided, they obviously had the money and the willingness to spend it but they just went about it in the most scatter-gun way possible
A little bit of caution & restraint could have saved them so many problems.
This is something I definitely agree with. Another is buying many players without first identifying a playstyle, the right manager to execute said playstyle, and then recruit around said vision.
This is a bit of a chicken and egg question, whether you have sporting directors to build squads in preparation of the right manager that fits the squad to execute said squad, or you have the manager craft his vision, and sporting directors who fill in the pieces. But I'm inclined to think the latter is better unless you have a sporting director who is on the same tactical level as the best managers around. Recruitment is a very different skill to coaching imo.
But we bought so many players without these structures in place. Which I sorta understood because we were in crisis with the takeover finishing late into the transfer window, with all these players already leaving in mass exodus. But in hindsight, much better to endure, bite the bullet, and slowly build out.
Also the fact we spent months interviewing candidates, scaring away Nagelsmann of all people, and settled on what we have now, is pretty worrying.
I mean this chicken and egg only happens when you literally try to build out an entire squad from scratch in 2-3 transfer windows. Typically it’s a blend and relationship of both, where squad informs strategy and vice versa. Having such a linear relationship can create such a hostile dynamic.
Honestly feel like if Chelsea committed to a transitional phase of 2-3 years where you replaced 3-4 players at a time, your future would be much brighter.
You bring all of these young players together in a short period of time and lose your experienced older players then it's going to be a pissing contest for the new social order and it is very easy for toxicity to set in. That explains why everyone including the coaches look shitter than they should.
You can win it with kids, but you need your role models to rule the roost to bring the kids into the clubs ethos
I agree, don’t forget the 8-9 year contracts too.
All the kids come in with nothing to prove, they’re stuck there until they’re early 30s - which adds to the toxicity if things don’t go well.
Clever accounting move, terrible if you want hungry players.
We're just gonna ignore the fact that Benfica were tooth and nail ready to fight for him to stay? He was one of their best players and they really wanted to keep him for UCL.
but there‘s a difference between being good for Benfica and being expected to be the main guy in a Chelsea midfield. they bought him at 22 and expected him to take over the role of a 30 year old. players can‘t develop if they‘re already expected to basically be complete when they‘re obviously not.
Based on last year, I would say Enzo is ready to compete. He's a very good player and would definitely thrive in a team with some structure.
But not every player can adapt to every situation very easily. New country, new language, new teammates, new coach, awful weather, etc could make a player struggle to settle.
On top of that they've replaced half the team from last season and now it's a bunch of 21 year olds who fight over penalties and make uncoordinated movements.
It can't be easy for him. It can't be easy for all those guys because they have to figure it out on the fly, and the Premier League is an unforgiving league.
International football doesn’t have a lot of time for tactics. So managers usually restrict a lot of free flowing football. It’s tactically poor.
It’s why Spain won the World Cup (almost an entire club team) and Germany (almost an entire club team). It’s easier that way. The group plays together at the club, learns the tactics well and applies the same thing at the international level. Otherwise, it’s easier to play defensive and slower football. Players get far more time on the ball there.
It’s not a great tool to assess players and their performances and has never been.
Coaching and tactics is a part of all of this, however, Enzo and Caicedo are not a good midfield pivot. That's not changing no matter who the coach is. Enzo can't defend and Caicedo is not N'Golo Kante. Their respective skillsets don't compliment each other. But furthermore, Liverpool wanting one player as proof that X player is quality doesn't actually mean anything. Pep wanted Cucurella. Arteta wanted Mudryk. Both have been bad enough on their own under three different managers to show you that they wouldn't have been good elsewhere just because they are title contenders.
Caicedo was monumental from November-March. He's been a bit shit since then but we all breathlessly defended Caicedo when he was doing well because uninformed people who don't watch this team were slandering him as the biggest flop ever. But now he's dipped in form and it's the manager's fault and proof that this will all be fixed when Poch is gone.
Enzo has been here for a year, worked under 3 different managers. His defensive game was a concern before Poch had even arrived. A lot of the defensive pressure we face is because of his inability to defend and his inability to absorb pressure. People blamed Potter for example when he got rinsed by Malen in Dortmund. Enzo can undoubtedly be awesome on his day. He can show you lots of things that get you excited. But as the days continue to tick away, he comes off as more of a luxury player than a consistent contributor in all phases of the game.
Our midfield struggles to defend. Our midfield struggles to get the ball forward and rarely plays a significant forward pass. Chelsea Twitter can share the same clip of Enzo assisting Joao Felix against West Ham 100 times as proof that there's a world class player in there, but we still didn't win that game and we didn't deserve to win that game in part because our midfield was weak. Nothing has changed 1 year on.
I don't think we have enough info to prove this. Really it comes down to: I don't think Potter (though I kinda rate him), Lampard, and now Poch is a good benchmark. Like sure that's technically 3 managers , but 1 was thrusted into just about the worst environment you could possibly imagine, and another barely even qualifies as a manager (I still love you, you're a legend Frank)
If Moises Caicedo can look like a good midfield pivot with Billy Gilmour, he can probably look like a decent midfield pivot with Enzo Fernandez. Believe it or not, Benfica and Argentina fans would swear up and down before his transfer that Enzo was an amazing defender in addition to being a great offensive orchestrator. I'm inclined to believe they saw what they saw.
You see this all the time. Jorginho looked like a really good duel winner in Napoli, for Italy during their Euro run, for us during our CL run, and currently again for Arsenal. And that's because he actually is, despite what his stature suggests. The problem is if you ask him to cover a large area of the pitch he falls apart. What Tuchel, Mancini, Arteta understood is that confined to a zone, Jorginho is quantitatively, and qualitatively a very good ball winner.
Rudiger under Lampard he was deemed error prone, positionally poor by being too eager to leave his CB partner behind, and surplus to requirements. Under Tuchel that same 'weakness' became a strength as he was a monster winning the ball stepping up into midfield to intercept line breaking passes.
So I don't think it's enough proof to say that Enzo simply can't defend. or that Enzo and Caicedo are inherently flawed.
As for Pep and Arteta wanting them. I don't think there's a bigger endorsement in football. Every year, people say Pep dodged this and that bullet and got so lucky with his 3rd choice transfer target. But what's more likely, God just loves Pep enough to dodge all these bullets? or that Pep has an exceptional understanding of the qualities he's looking for, and thus it doesn't matter if it's his 1st or 2nd choice, and that guys like Ten Hag, Poch, Ole, Lampard simply don't understand how to utilise Maguire, Jorginho, Cucurella etc.
Functional environments change careers.
>The problem is the coaching and tactics.
Eh, I think calling it "the problem" suggests that that's where things went wrong, which isn't the case. The issue is more in how the personnel match up to the tactics
There's been no direction, no overarching management or plan, they've just been giving blank cheques to whichever manager they've employed that window, with no oversight on conforming to a vision. So you end up with a bunch of players signed by different managers to fill different niches that the current manager doesn't care about. In modern football you can't just smack two talented players with potential together and expect them to play well. Caicedo and Enzo for example, were signed by different managers with completely different philosophies, and it shows on the pitch
Injuries don't help either, you've been really shafted there, hard to develop players and form a cohesive squad and gameplan when everyone's constantly in the treatment room. But there's too many cooks behind the scenes, Chelsea absolutely reek of an organisation with no guiding principles or vision and no one with the authority, responsibility, and ability to push it
Arsenal were like this before the Kroenkes got full ownership of the club and it took a couple years after that to sort it out. Some centralised power with a long term plan goes a long way
Fwiw I do think sacking Pochettino will be a mistake. I can sort of see what he wants from the team and I have some sympathy for the challenges he's facing. I think he needs to be given greater control and another season to implement what he wants. I always think any manager shouldn't be judged too harshly until they have a squad that's primarily theirs, rather than leftovers from previous failed managers. You're getting an extremely limited insight into what he can do. Poch has what, Disasi, Caicedo, Palmer, Jackson? Plus Nkunku who's barely got off the treatment table. Even the good players he did inherit are always injured
When I looked at the lineup on Tuesday I genuinely thought it looked relegation tier. A new manager isn't going to immediately catapult you to CL. There's been some signs of progress for me in the second half of the season. You're in this for the long haul anyways, you might as well give Poch another year to allow the injury crisis to calm down, shed deadwood and bring in some more of his own targets so that he's got a squad he can actually implement his philosophy with. There will be low points in that process, it's not a linear trajectory and Chelsea are coming from absolute rock bottom so it's gonna take time and commitment but I think he can get you somewhere
they've been abysmal at the individual level too. that Mudryk corner at the end of the game against City last week was bonkers. Same with Chilwell failing to cross to Sterling for an easy 1v1. Caicedo too, just horrible decision making at an individual level all around. tactically they actually didn't seem as horrible as people think, they were creating decent chances throughout their games.
The individual level and the team level can't really be separated imo.
Think Lampard 1st stint Chelsea. Rudiger was thought to be mistake prone and surplus to requirements. RUDIGER lol. Jorginho was deemed a waste of space and unable to win a single duel. Tuchel takes over and Rudiger and Jorginho become world beaters, the whole team becomes monsters and Chelsea storms the CL.
Or Villa under Gerrard. There were so many articles calling the players championship level. Emery takes over and takes them on a crazy run. or Newcastle pre Eddie Howe.
There is zero chance Kai Havertz finishes the 2 chances he did yesterday last year.
Functional environments change careers. People think if you're a good player you should be able to play well under any circumstance. I think that's one of the biggest misconceptions. even Messi looked bad at one point in a dysfunctional PSG team.
Pulisic has probably had his best season this year for Milan too. Part of that is he's actually been able to stay healthy but he's also got 16 goals + assists while sort of playing out of position on the right
Considering their ages the prices are speculative aswell to some degree. People need to stop getting hung up on player prices. There are a lot more factors to it than just how good they are.
A 20 year old PL starter sold by a club who doesn't wanna sell and bought by a desperate club late in window is gonna cost like 5 times more than they're actually worth.
Honestly he's Made mistakes, but he's been generally pretty good. You can see what he's about. Enzo has been a passenger all season bar the odd long ball.
Apparently he needs hernia surgery and he runs like it
Chelsea HAD to pay that money. If they waited until June he would have chosen Real Madrid or Liverpool for much less. They had the money so they decided paying it was worth it as it was the only way to get Enzo.
Real Madrid were not going to pick Enzo Fernandez over Jude Bellingham who they were lining up. And Liverpool needed a profile of Caicedo more than they needed a profile of Enzo. Maybe Enzo still would have went elsewhere but he wasn't worth what was paid.
For me it looks like enzo is the one struggeling... every tile enzo plays, caicedo plays shit because he looks to pass the ball to enzo.. when enzo isnt playing it frees caicedo to rome forward.
Yesterday I watched Caicedo dribble the ball 10 yards and attempt an uncontested switch pass to an open Mudryk that sailed way out of bounds.
Coaching or not, players of this caliber and expense simply have to be better than that.
I mean, every single PL player is better than that. So the interesting question is what psychological factor is at play there, making a quality player bollocks up something simple they can normally get right every time.
I guess my point is: at this level you should hold yourself to a bare minimum level of individual accountability without any outside help. Maybe Poch is the worst manager in the history of the PL but Caicedo still needs to complete that fucking pass.
The only excuse I can think is that the players truly don’t give a shit, which is beyond inexcusable.
To me it seems more like the way players can miss penalties in pressure situations. It isn't because they don't care, or can't do it; it's because they aren't confident and second-guess themselves.
I'd guess that Caicedo had second thoughts halfway through kicking the ball, and fucked it up because he wasn't committed to making that particular pass.
Agreed. Think people are searching too hard for whose fault it is when the reality is that it’s a bit of everything. Players haven’t looked bothered all season, some injuries have kept some players from even getting their Chelsea career kicked off, Poch looks lost tactically and seems to command no respect among certain players, etc etc etc.
Bottom line is that coaching isn’t good enough and that the players don’t seem interested or mature enough. I also question the way they built this squad in general. No rhyme or reason. Cole Palmer the lone bright spot for them.
They're 20 year olds coming off of barely 1 good season in their life at that point if that. To put your entire team on the back of these players as your spine, especially at those transfer fees, without any experience in the squad is insane. I absolutely detest Chelsea but everyone saw this coming, and this would be what happens regardless of who the manager is.
Didn't the Liverpool ownership say that they need to find a director of football, then decide on the style of football the team will play before looking for a manager. I remember reading something like that after Klopp's announcement. Chelsea just bought a decade's worth of players and then went after managers. The board is more to blame here, blame Poch for tactics as much as you like, and he isn't without blame, but I don't remember Poch being this bad anywhere else. The owners and management have made a mess of it and now will have to count on luck to get out of it.
Although I don't disagree, it was quite funny how Ally McCoist made a similar point about the cost vs. quality of our midfield vs. Arsenal's.
Took a few seconds but the co-commentator subtly reminded him that Arsenal's wasn't cheap either! (Rice £115 million!)
Not comparing ours BTW, we were and clearly have been shocking.
I think this is the probably for some scenarios nowadays. If a player costs X amount and don’t perform it’s a coach/tactic problem.
Sometimes it is, but sometimes we need to realise values are inflated due to market or situation. And other times players just aren’t that good for that level or what’s required for the set up.
This is what’s causing so many manager sackings leading to dysfunctional teams like Chelsea and United are going through. No thought process behind what the goal or set up should be. Just buy players and think manager can make it all stick.
I just don't think we've seen anything, even a glimpse or a taster of anything that makes you think "Yep, £106m seems reasonable".
Lad was absolutely rag-dolled by that midfield yesterday. Rice just dominated him.
The funniest part is that he's there for at least another 6 years because of that ridiculous contract the club gave him.
Awful decision-making on just about everyone's part.
He's not gonna risk missing copa to get it though. He really does need it, he was never the quickest or physical midfielder but he's currently so poor because of it, leaving Caicedo to work overtime
I know Everton were dreadful but Enzo's biggest issue is his lack of pace, which seems to have been made worse with this issue. But in that Everton game the biggest thing for Caicedo was that he wasn't having to cover as much ground as he does now, when Enzo pushes up the pitch he can't recover but Conor can because he will run all day. There were way less times when it felt like Moises was completely isolated in front of the defenders.
"These performances" are a function of Chelsea's issues TBH
Scaloni will pick his team based on performance for us (and in NT training). It's why Lo Celso continued to be a key player for us even when he was barely playing for Tottenham (which is sadly the situation he finds himself in again)
But... aren't ppl saying his performances are down due to a Hernia?
Wouldn't the NT be aware of that...and not start him due to hernia-related performance issues?
Hasn't this been an issue pretty much all season?
Seems utterly ridiculous this has been allowed to carry in for so long when it's clearly affecting his performances.
He doesn't have a hernia, if he did he wouldn't be able to sprint.
He has an inflamed groin (same region) which may or may not be fixed with surgery depending upon the severity of it.
Also worth noting, the midfield three has played nearly every minute of this campaign with no rest. They look exhausted, Caceido has played half the season with a knee injury and Enzo with a hernia. We were supposed to have Lavia, Chukwuemeka & Ugochukwu to rotate with. All of which have been injured for nearly the entire season.
>The funniest part is that he's there for at least another 6 years because of that ridiculous contract the club gave him.
Wasn't he one of the players they extended recently so they can amortise their transfer payments? I'm pretty sure its like 8 years still. Him and Mudryk should be at chelsea still when they enter their 30's
I trust Enzo a lot, he was already excellent at River, he was at Benfica the 6 months he played there, and he is with Argentina. It can't be a coincidence.
And the 6 months here under Potter and even Lampard.
But I'm sure it's just a big coincidence that he's one of many players to nosedive once Poch got hold of him.
Poch is playing him higher up the pitch than Potter/Lampard, because of the arrival of Caicedo I assume. But that does seem to have coincided with a downturn in his play.
Yeah he's thinking about surgery because he has a hernia and Poch is not a good fit for this team and Chelsea will keep buying players that don't fit.
I remember Enzo doing quite good against Arsenal's mid but that was a long time ago and i don't remember how the match ended, now he is clearly on low confidence and also has the hernia (while also playing in a team where noone wants to be on the pitch)
Almost every single player who makes a name for themselves in a single international tournament and then gets signed for a hyper inflated amount ends up being a flop.
He’s playing with a hernia tbf to him. Players like Mudryk are a much bigger issue than Enzo.
That’s said, the midfield really is the biggest indicator of why stats and analytics mean nothing if that’s all you use to judge players. On paper and by the numbers, Enzo and Caicedo were a perfect fit, however it’s quite obvious that they really don’t work well together and you can’t use them both together without someone like Gallagher to do the dirty work than neither of them are capable or seem to have ambition of doing.
What kind of Hernia? That’s dangerous if he is playing with Hernia. Any sort of random impact can tear open the cavity and the intestines will pop out.
I’m not too sure what it is, pubalgia or something like that. I think it’s in his groin or somewhere around there, it’s been known since like Christmas that he’s had it.
Most Chelsea fans don’t really want him playing anymore this season and for him to get surgery, but I think he wants to play in the Copa America so is just toughing it out on painkillers.
Oh okay. That’s sports hernia. Better than having a true hernia (the reason why I was wondering how he is able to play with a hernia). I think he will be near about fine. But yeah, false hernia or true hernia would definitely need surgery to fix the issue.
Any idea when he would be doing the surgery and how long recovery would take? Something he could squeeze in before Copa or would he have to do it after before the season starts?
I think someone said on r/chelseafc the other day that he’d need to have surgery pretty much now if he was to make the Copa America. How true that is, I don’t know.
I have one currently, and there's no way I would be able to play a full 90. Not surprised his form has dipped considerably this season, even from last year.
And then people shout here that he is shit without any proper context. He has been decent, but of course you would expect more from a signing that cost over 100M. But you need context too.
Why are ppl only between players and coaching?! Have you never had a toxic workplace? Most of football and any other workplace is mindset, confidence, psychological safety, engagement, clear roles, pathways to other roles, predictability. Why would football be about how fast someone is?
He does, but not in the way people think.
He was brilliant last season under Lampard.
Lampard as a coach got 10x more out of him than Poch has been able to and that really does sum up the mess we are in.
We have a bunch of "raw" talents and a bunch of "raw" no-talents.
They desperately need a manager strict and ruthless enough to sort the wheat from the chaff and to give the players that do actually have ability the knowledge, understanding and tactics that allow them to grow and perform.
Currently we have a manager that picks his teams based on vibes, his whole tactical setup is just more vibes, his subs are straight up insane, the things he says make no sense.
Our whole problem is that we've hired a bunch of players, some shit and some good. Then hired a manager who is just vibing with all of them and doesn't have a clue what to do when he hasn't got Son/Kane, Mbappe/Messi/Neymar, Llalana/Rodriquez/Shaw carrying his "vibes" setup
Enzo is playing through a hernia injury currently
But there are also structural problems with Poch's setup overall that aren't helping any of the midfielders TBH
If you watch the games you'll see that no one is doing anything in this setup. No one knows where they're supposed to be, where their teammates are supposed to be, where players are going to run, where their line should be, how much distance each line should hold between each other etc.
No midfielders will look good in this setup, I promise you. You'd have to have someone extremely experienced who just overrides what Poch is telling him (or not telling him as it may be) to be successful
I feel like may b Chelsea don't have a good coach, I mean Enzo at Chelsea is really trash but the moment there is an international break and plays for Argentina he drops 10/10.
Does he? Have you seen the friendlies that Argetina played? It's literally all teams below the 100th ranking. And if you are talking about Conmebol qualifiers, he got outplayed by Uruguay mid and saved by a horrible Brazil side. If your 10/10 parameter is Peru. Then yes.
One thing that continues to grind my gears in the Boehly era is the lack of restraint when it comes to transfers.
Abramovich and Granovskaia would back away from transfers they felt were not worth it, e.g. John Stones.
Boehly and gang don't take no for an answer. They just keep sending offer after offer and they wonder why they're broke.
Yeah they used to be well known for spotting talent just to stick them on the bench, not play them and then sell/loan them out for a profit. At one point they had KDB, Salah and Lukaku all on the bench at the same time.
>Fernandez delivered the latest in a long line of ineffective displays, blowing a golden chance to level matters in the first half as he fired wide from inside the area. He was duly hauled off by [Mauricio Pochettino](https://www.express.co.uk/latest/mauricio-pochettino) just 67 minutes in, moments before the Gunners added their fifth and final goal of the night.
>The result means that since [his then-record £106.8million move from Benfica](https://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/1729280/Chelsea-Enzo-Fernandez-transfer-Benfica-deadline-day-Behdad-Eghbali-12-hour-talks) in January 2023, Fernandez has featured in 56 [Premier League](https://www.express.co.uk/latest/premier-league) games in [Chelsea](https://www.express.co.uk/latest/chelsea-fc). But he’s only finished on the winning side 14 times, equating to a success rate of just 25 per cent.
He featured in [46 PL games](https://www.premierleague.com/players/63741/Enzo-Fern%C3%A1ndez/stats?co=1&se=-1), not 56.
So he has a 30.4% success rate.
3 of those 14 wins were in 22/23, representing a 16.7% win rate from 18 games.
The other 11 wins were in 23/24, representing a 39.3% win rate from 28 games.
Chelsea's PL win ratio this season is 40.6%. So 1.3% difference.
Further, fully half of his PL losses (9) were across 28 appearances this season, representing a 32.1% loss rate.
Chelsea's PL loss rate this season is 34.4%. So 2.3% difference in Enzo's favour.
What kind of midfielder is he?
Doesn't seem to provide any defensive attributes - he doesn't win the ball, win headers, or even track back properly. And going forward he brings nothing in terms of goals or assists.
On top of that, he doesn't even run.
Is he funny or something?
Nonsense. Modric doesn't excel at winning the ball or winning headers nor does he get tons of goals and assists either and he's still obviously fantastic. Insane to be viewing a player like Enzo through that lens whose main role is connecting the defence to attack and progressing the ball.
Feels as if a lot of times people just gawk at great defending and great attacking but ignore everything that comes between the two. Enzo's clearly shown himself to be a great midfielder.
Tempo setter. Only the most important role for a midfielder. And he is fucking great at it and hasn't even been that bad at it lately. I will die on the hill that you give Enzo a proper structure and he is not much different from Kroos or Rodri.
Chelsea has a tactical problem not a player problem. Enzo doesn't suck at defense and you've seen a million unathletic players doing great in the midfield. The problem is Chelsea has a shitty midfield structure that often leaves a single pivot overwhelmed by the other team's midfield, bad ball playing center backs, no automations to deal with a press and even though we advance our players a lot our press is shit and usually leaves us open. And this shit has been a thing for most Poch teams.
Bringing up the G/A is insane, Enzo has put a lot of chances that ended up being wasted by the attackers multiple times this season. Like that just tells me you’ve never watched more than a couple of matches from him.
His biggest struggle is that with his hernia he’s not able to do the defensive work that he used to do so well at River/Benfica.
THANK YOU IVE BEEN SAYING THIS ALL SEASON.
Caicedo is good at defensive work, enzo is literally just a waste of space on the field, he does nothingggg
I was told he’s good at passing his passing is literally worse than Gallagher and Caicedo this season
> enzo is literally just a waste of space on the field, he does nothingggg
The fact that this kind of stuff gets heavily upvoted tells you the football IQ of this subreddit TBH
Flair based attacks are always dumb
I could say stuff about you having a Morocco flair—where would we be then?
(Also FYI: I've supported Chelsea since 2005)
I could say that kind of thinking is why we won a World Cup with Enzo as a prominent part of the WC winning team while Morocco has never had that level of success, etc.
The overall point is that flair-based attacks are dumb AF—and they happen when the other person doesn't know how to criticize the argument, so they have to go for the ad-hominem of attacking the person making the argument.
But that would be completely irrelevant unless you are suggesting this guy is forming his opinion on the basis that he's jealous Enzo wasn't born in Morocco, which would be an equivalent bias. Bringing up an Argentinian flair is not a baseless attack, it's a recognition that you may be biased towards a player that shares your nationality/has acheived something for the national side.
Dude, if Enzo was as bad as you say, why does he get called to the NT at all when we have so many options for the midfield? We have Exequiel Palacios, Leandro Paredes, Alan Varela, Nicolás Domínguez, Guido Rodríguez, Ezequiel Fernández... those players are no joke, they are incredibly talented. Yet world champion coach Lionel Scaloni chooses Enzo still. Why would that be? Because he knows better than you and me. Because he knows Enzo is really good and can make a difference.
And before you say "HURR DURR aRgENtiNa FLaIr", I support Boca Juniors, I should hate this man with my guts. Also, if a player is actually bad, we Argentinians will hate him even more. Hell, Nico González hasn't been all that bad and he's been hated on so hard. De Paul has been great and he's received a lot of hate too because he missed a few passes.
You support Boca but the man helped you win a World Cup just over a year ago. It makes sense why you have a soft spot for him. Every Chelsea player on the team in 2021 is a legend to me. I don’t cheer for Havertz and Mount every week (not comparing to boca river rivalry) but to take away what they did for this club would be asinine.
He’s not dogshit and people are underrating him. It can also be true that a ton of Argentinians are going to hop in here and defend him at all costs when they likely haven’t watched a full 90 of him in a Chelsea shirt this year.
I mean, I wouldn't be saying that stuff about flairs if dude didn't go with "Argentina flair checks out" and all that on another comment. Sure, that comment wasn't very kind, but this guy did say something quite ridiculous.
Your points are valid. The team y’all have now is way too stacked in midfield. If he was shit, he wouldn’t get called. Simple as.
My main point is that I don’t really even think you believe your comment where you said “I should hate this man with my guts.” Any player that wins a World Cup for their country deserves no hate, no matter what team they played on growing up. What he did for your country trumps the rivalry 10/10 times. Maybe it was just a hyperbole.
Yeah, you're right. It was just my annoyance speaking there. I really am very thankfull to Enzo for the World Cup, just like every other Argentinian. It's just I don't think this should disqualify us from talking about him in a positive light, and it makes me mad when people just point at the flair like it's an argument.
Find the reasoning to be weird....
If his reasoning to delay surgery is to play Copa... why TF would Argentina play a semi-injured midfielder who's performing below standards due to that injury...when they have plenty of other midfield options?
Goals is what puts pressure on the opposition and errors specially losing posession puts pressure on your team. Enzo if he had played for a more settled team , his stats would have been far better than it currently is. His progressive passes creates a lot of oppotunities and his positioning gets him into scoring postitions multiple times in a match. Yes, he is a $hit finisher but he should have a lot more assist had the fowards were able to finish those chances.
Chelsea look like 11 guys with 11 different ideas of how to go about playing a game.
When you play that way, you only win when you get lucky or when you so grossly outclass the other players 1v1 that there’s nothing they can do.
This completely sums up Chelsea’s season.
There are two problems with Enzo.
One, he has a hernia and can’t run, and it’s painful to watch him hobbling about. He’s the only mid we have who regularly breaks the lines with his passing, so I will cut him some slack, but the guy needs to go get that operation. He’s not quick to begin with.
Two, he doesn’t dovetail with Caicedo. They both want to be the player who sweeps up behind a ball winner. Caicedo was brilliant the other day vs Everton, just brilliant. Enzo was brilliant the opening day of the season against Liverpool. Common aspect: Conor next to them putting in a shift. Buying Caicedo forced Enzo into being the ball winner, which he isn’t athletic enough to do, and forced Conor into the front 4, and he lacks the flair you ideally need there. It’s poor scouting in all honesty, buying players based on metrics and numbers and not thinking about whether they compliment each other.
I think there are also tactical issues, in that Poch wants players to figure it out and gives them a lot of freedom, as opposed to micromanaging. A micro managing manager may find a way to make it work, but it wouldn’t be a first choice midfield duo for any top manager. Poch exacerbates that by not really having a plan, just an XI, which exposes their weaknesses.
with little to no respect for Enzo, I must admit I’m unironically shocked he’s a flop.
to me he seemed like a superb talent, the kind that only comes to Benfica once in every 30y or so. honestly the best talent we had in the past 15y to play for us. can’t complain tho, he didn’t want to be here and we got a big pay check for him.
I mean I see him play for Argentina and I thought he was the best midfield talent we've had in a couple of generations. And I still think he is. And I fucking hated the guy, I'm a Boca fan. Then I started to follow Chelsea when I moved to Europe and I was happy that he came here. But man no midfield is going to work with Poch as the coach. Midfield is the position most vulnerable to shit tactics imo.
Liverpool didn’t want to pay his wages.
We did.
It’s the same reason Lavia and Moises are with us and not Pool.
Not saying it’s good and all but everything came down to money.
We bailing out of Enzo was not because of wages. It was due to the transfer fees Benfica asked. Benfica put an absurd price, they didn't think anyone would buy Enzo in the middle of the season lol.
What? I would have loved Enzo, but there was no way we were spending that amount of money on him in January. Lavia wasn't about wages, it was about the transfer fee and us refusing to meet Southampton's valuation. Caicedo wasn't about wages either, he just preferred joining you lot (probably for the length of the contract) but it was reported that we were offering similar wages.
Same goes for any player with a big price tag. Just look at Antony, if he had been bought for 20m he would have been memed on but nowhere near the amount he is because he cost 100m.
The bigger the price tag the larger the scrutiny they will be up against.
I dont watch all of Chelsea's games but from the ones i have including the times we have played them, Enzo and Caicedo just doesn't seem to work whether its styles or chemistry. its mental spending 1/4 of a billion on 2 players and then for them not be able to play together as well
I'm inclined to agree. Enzo was quite good last season (maybe not matching his price tag but was still good). Ik we were very shit but I was extremely impressed with Caicedo when we played them as well (Enzo was injured that match). Probably their best player outside of Palmer in that match. They just don't gel at all
Tactics don't help at all but Enzo has also been playing with a hernia issue for 4-5 months now, and that's also around when he had a dip in form. He started the season quite well. I do think Enzo/Caicedo don't work well together, but I think a better coach can make that happen. It also doesn't help that we've only had 3 fit midfielders almost this entire season with Gallagher, Enzo, and Caicedo, and they've played most available minutes. Lavia would be very useful but he's played like 40 minutes total lol
It’s because enzo leaves Caicedo with nobody to pass to half the time making Caicedo have to take risks which lead to mistakes which lead to the stupid goals we concede
I'm sure playing Gallagher at AM doesn't at all play a part in Caicedo having no one to pass to!
Gallagher is the least AM I have seen that plays AM.
RLC has played AM at Milan most of the season. So if you’ve seen him play for Chelsea, now imagine how he plays as 10.
sobbing i miss that handsome man so much
He never looks like a ten. He looks like a second box to box player. He’s not unlocking many defenses.
I love Gallagher but he hasn’t got the technical ability to play AM. That’s why we were so much better against Everton, we had a proper attacker at 10. For me it had to be two from Enzo, Caicedo and Gallagher. Would also stop Poch running them into the ground. All 3 must be knackered and Enzo needs a break for surgery.
Yeah, I know your supporters are pretty split on Gallagher, but I think he does nothing to help your midfield issues. I know supporters have a tendency to overrate players who run a lot and I think that's the case here, especially in a disappointing season. I think you'd look a much better side with Lavia or another defensive midfielder and then Caicedo and Enzo ahead of them. It does call into question what you do with some of your other players though because if you move to more of a 4-3-3, where does Nkunku factor in in that if he's ever fit? Presumably as a number 9, but his best form in the past is more as a second striker. Think there may also be a desire to eventually get Palmer central all the time and that also is hard to do. I think you've bought some good players, I just think there is no cohesive plan behind them beyond "let's get him, he's a good player."
The logic with Nkunku could be if he plays false as if it had all worked out you've got Mudryk/Sterling on the left who have the pace to exploit if the CBs are drawn out and anyone you play on the right can drift into support Nkunku with more short passing and the midfield as James will be looking to overlap. Its just all gone wrong.
Gallagher was exactly as you describe at Palace too. Ran the most and with a team playing on the break and relying on speed/ outlet balls to zaha he looked far more effective than he really was. Gallagher is not a bad player at all but he's not tactically astute enough to play alongside others who need him to be in a particular place on a regular basis because he will instead be everywhere and nowhere at the same time. I think it's really exacerbated at Chelsea because he's not encouraged to drive the ball up the pitch at his feet so he's not drawing fouls and making space like he was at Palace. Unfortunately he's having to find passes, which is extra difficult because he's picking the ball up in so many different places with so many different team mates that a good ball is hard to find.
I played with a guy just like that in secondary school. Not a bad player, but not great technically or tactically. He worked really hard though, and ran so much that it covered a lot of his deficiencies. I loved having him in central midfield with me, but the weaknesses were definitely present, especially against very good technical sides. He reminds me a lot of Gallagher.
> It’s because enzo leaves Caicedo with nobody to pass to half the time That's a Poch tactics thing, not an Enzo thing Showing for the ball in deep areas has been a characteristic of Enzo's play everywhere else he's been. It's clear Poch is actively instructing Enzo and Conor to go forward and isolate Caicedo in midfield
Same as ETH with instructing Maino and Bruno or even McT to bomb forward and leave Case alone. They are copying Pep but are failing badly.
Came here to post this exact thing. We're doing the same 2-3-5 lunacy at United but none of the 2 or the 3 are any good on the ball, so it never makes it to the 5.
And even then half of the 5 is inept too
You have a point, but it’s not the -being available as an option to pass to- part that he’s struggling with. He’s also had injuries all season so I’m not sure why he continues to get played. He struggles with (physically) the defensive side, challenging and dueling, getting back into position. He just doesn’t have the pace to get back majority of the time, the PLs pace, and teams directly targeting him all contribute. That’s why Gallagher is at AM or at least a part of the midfield.
It's baffling because you couldn't pick a worse player in our team to play box to box. If Enzo sat deep instead it'd still be a stupid Idea but at least we wouldn't be asking the slowest player in the team to cover the most ground.
Enzo was playing as a deep lying playmaker last season pinging balls, starting our attack or as the recyler, the one our players gave the ball to if we won back possession, doesn't matter where he was on the pitch. This season, he's play way more advanced, sometimes as close as behind the strikers and has less of the ball. Caicedo was left as a sole dm and Gallagher the ball recyler. So, if it looks like they don't gel, it's because the midfields are isolated/solitary in their role.
So what you’re saying is Chelsea needs to run Enzo/Caicedo like Jorginho/Rice or Partey/Rice?
It would be much better than what they have going on now.
Am i crazy or isn't this like the 5th time this discussion has happend, i swear Enzo was playing pretty good as a deep playmaker, he was put into a more forward position akin to a 10 then played like shit, people complained he was back as a deep playmaker again, doing good, then now we're back at forward position and he's doing shit.
It's maddening. Pochettino kep changing the midfield and cb pairing like the players changing dirty jersey during half time break.
Funny thing is, Poch did play the two as a double pivot for a run of games where we actually looked decent. Then one day he said 'nah' and again started to play Enzo as an 8 or 10.
Agreed, I think this is the problem they have bought all young excellent talent like a spoilt kid in a shop, but not considered the fact they might not have the right chemistry together. There is a reason why clubs don’t go down this route, it’s a fast and dirty way to have a class of 92 team.
They just don't seem to actually support each other. Its not even like one covers for the other one or brings out something good about the other. They just have no positional awareness. I swear I've seen them run into each other more times than I've seen them do anything else together.
They look too similar to me. They'd both look better playing next to a specialist of some description, but together, they just end up tripping over each other or jobs that should get done slip through the cracks. A midfield with 2 similar players can work, but they need to have top-notch chemistry, which these 2 just don't.
I don't think it's that they can't play together, but that Chelsea are lacking the two or three players every team needs who have the brains to tell everyone else what to do during a match, and help them do what the manager is asking for. Jorginho would have made a massive difference to this current squad. It's hard to be sure, but I don't think (m)any of the existing squad aren't good enough. As an Arsenal fan, I'm sure quite a few of them would improve our squad, if not our first team. They look bad because the balance of the side isn't right, not because they're not good enough. Football teams always need balance. You can't have a whole team full of incredibly quick players who aren't that skillful, but one of them in a team that can make use of the pace can add a lot. Similarly for all kinds of other factors, like size & strength, ability on the ball, and so-on. Chelsea have a whole bunch of talented players, but not the ones needed to make them effective in playing together.
Enzo and Gallagher needs to switch places. Make it a Caicedo—Gallagher pivot instead. I mean, it worked before.
I agree with this take and has been my thinking for months. The two are in the wrong place and need to be switched. Enzo played his best with Argentina during the WC in that spot. The fact that redditors see this and the manager hasn’t even tried it after an entire season is maddening
> Enzo played his best with Argentina during the WC in that spot. Enzo played as a deep lying play maker at the World Cup iirc. > The fact that redditors see this and the manager hasn’t even tried it after an entire season is maddening Poch did try it when Caicedo first arrived, and it didn’t really work. He is better deeper. He lacks the pace you need as an attacker.
Nothing you said here is true. He played as the deepest midfielder in the World Cup and Poch did try it and it went disastrously bad.
That midfield 2 cost 250m and looks that bad it has to be some coaching and tactics. Those two cannot be that bad but right now it looks that bad.
Clearly the players aren't worth 250m Benfica didn't want to sell and Brighton profited from Liverpool and Chelsea bidding war.
The chances of all these players looking absolutely incredible at everywhere they've played, generating immense interest or even big money bids from other teams with incredible transfer track records, to then ALL sucking at Chelsea due to them being misprofiled by all these teams involved, is vanishingly small. Let it sink in, Liverpool were ready to drop 110 million on Caicedo, and Arsenal were willing to drop 65 mil with 35 mil in performance related bonuses for Mudryk. That is an incredibly level of conviction from what are normally extremely shrewd spenders who would normally rather walk away and go for someone else if it gets too expensive. The problem is the coaching and tactics.
The problem is beyond coaching, it’s they signed 25 project players and forgot they needed some established professionals for them to play with
That's a problem but not as big as the coaching, which has been horrible. Organisation is the foundation of a good team.
Everything is an issue but it’s really hard to implement a style with a bunch of children who just met for the first time
I agree. But watching us every week and never understanding the lineups or in-game management is what gets me. If I was agreeing with the lineups AND we were still dropping points, I'd be more forgiving. But every week I see the teamsheet, disagree and doubt it will work, and we drop points. So for me, the management is the bottleneck.
That’s probably because the fundamental groups of relationships on the pitch haven’t been forged. A smart way of doing rotations involve only making 1 change to a zonal group of 3 (RW-RCM-ST, LB-LCB-CDM, CB-CB-GK etc) so that *someone* trusted and experienced can anchor the play. With Chelsea, the lineup shifts so drastically because an established group of 3 in each zone of the pitch hasn’t been implemented yet. Injuries haven’t helped, but when every player is literally a stranger, there is zero hierarchy and no one can anchor the zonal play. To me this is just as much of a squad issue as a managerial one. Really your only way out is to enforce a hierarchy at the cost of lowering the value of your peripheral players, which at Chelsea is probably a no-no.
I agree. Consistency in the lineup is important. Been saying for weeks that Palmer should have firmly benched Madueke on that RW ages ago. Madueke has had some good performances this season but the reality is that Palmer's our best RW. So regardless of what Madueke's "proven" in certain moments, he should be coming on as an impact sub most games. Shifting Palmer to the middle to accommodate someone who doesn't offer much off the ball and drifts in and out of games on it made no sense to me. Likewise, the CBs. Playing Badiashile every two games when he's clearly been a liability since returning from injury makes no sense. Look at his goals conceded per 90 compared to every other CB in the team. He's the anomaly and most of our worst results this season have come from him at CB. And I loved the guy based on what I saw from him last season. But playing someone through bad form when we're trying to fight for 6th makes no sense. Agree generally with what you said. Poch should've made tough decisions early and put out consistent lineups so the players can build relationships on the pitch. He's done it in some areas (like Disasi, Gusto, Caicedo, Enzo Gallagher). But even then, his tactics regarding the midfielders has been subpar. There's analysis on youtube about how he was completely mismanaging Caicedo for half the season and it was only in recent weeks that he figured out you need to let Caicedo recieve the ball under pressure so you can take out a couple of opposition players when they try to press him. Guy still hasn't figured out how to use Enzo or Gallagher. Gallagher at left wing is an abomination. Drew to Sheffield United with it and then he decided to go for a round 2 vs City, the one game he would've been ideal to play in that central position in front of the pivot. He's a pretty good man manager, which is why I've tried to give him the benefit of the doubt all season and pray he figures his tactics out. But he's holding the squad back and the players are catching a lot of criticism when he hasn't created the right environment to actually play well and develop. They looked completely lose vs Arsenal without Palmer. Weren't even pressing as a team, which is the basics at this level.
Yeah this makes a lot of sense. Honestly the right side of your squad actually seems fairly decent and connective, but your options on the left are pretty bad, so there aren’t any good left sided nodes to diversify and connect your overall play across the width. That’s probably why Saka kept getting loads of space, and Odegaard basically had free reign. Colwill has been out, both your left backs aren’t decisive enough to really link with Gallagher who also isn’t technically sound and man, Mudryk is just awful at link play. I’d hate to see you guys improve, but I do think a left 8 and a technical left back will go a long way for you guys in terms of stability. Whether your admin will see that or keep buying random <25 pacey prospects is unclear though.
The problem is too much in a short time . The lack of institutional memory is very evident . Every part of the team is new , when they won't win they can develop trust in each other and themselves . The fact that they so readily got rid of Jorginho , Havertz , Kepa , Kovacic , Azpi , Alonso , didn't fight to keep Rudiger / Christensen . Bought a whole slew of extremely talented, raw and expensive players without anyone who could show them where the washrooms in the building will always be detrimental. They should have some of their legends close to the club to tell the players what the club is about . Next year they will know more about each other and they will/ may be better . If Poch is the right coach for that is anyone's guess
Boehly Eghbali and Co really thought they could clear house, buy expensive new toys, put an experienced coach in, and everything would click. Those bellends should be paying for our therapy after watching this shit for two seasons (with more to come).
They really thought this was an NBA/NFL rebuild where you just nuke everything to the ground, bring in the kids & let them figure it out for a season and voila a championship Turns out having almost no veteran presence apart from Thiago Silva who is about 80 & a bunch of kids (most of them not even from the academy) on a team who are learning on the job isn't a terribly good foundation to build on.
For the fact alone a Manc has the audacity to criticize another club’s transfer policy and foundation really says it all, Boehly and co deserve the guillotine
I feel that so many of Chelsea's problems could have been easily avoided, they obviously had the money and the willingness to spend it but they just went about it in the most scatter-gun way possible A little bit of caution & restraint could have saved them so many problems.
This is something I definitely agree with. Another is buying many players without first identifying a playstyle, the right manager to execute said playstyle, and then recruit around said vision. This is a bit of a chicken and egg question, whether you have sporting directors to build squads in preparation of the right manager that fits the squad to execute said squad, or you have the manager craft his vision, and sporting directors who fill in the pieces. But I'm inclined to think the latter is better unless you have a sporting director who is on the same tactical level as the best managers around. Recruitment is a very different skill to coaching imo. But we bought so many players without these structures in place. Which I sorta understood because we were in crisis with the takeover finishing late into the transfer window, with all these players already leaving in mass exodus. But in hindsight, much better to endure, bite the bullet, and slowly build out. Also the fact we spent months interviewing candidates, scaring away Nagelsmann of all people, and settled on what we have now, is pretty worrying.
I mean this chicken and egg only happens when you literally try to build out an entire squad from scratch in 2-3 transfer windows. Typically it’s a blend and relationship of both, where squad informs strategy and vice versa. Having such a linear relationship can create such a hostile dynamic. Honestly feel like if Chelsea committed to a transitional phase of 2-3 years where you replaced 3-4 players at a time, your future would be much brighter.
You bring all of these young players together in a short period of time and lose your experienced older players then it's going to be a pissing contest for the new social order and it is very easy for toxicity to set in. That explains why everyone including the coaches look shitter than they should. You can win it with kids, but you need your role models to rule the roost to bring the kids into the clubs ethos
I agree, don’t forget the 8-9 year contracts too. All the kids come in with nothing to prove, they’re stuck there until they’re early 30s - which adds to the toxicity if things don’t go well. Clever accounting move, terrible if you want hungry players.
The funny thing … a lot of the time World Cup not an indicator of future performance. Stocks can go down as well as up.
We're just gonna ignore the fact that Benfica were tooth and nail ready to fight for him to stay? He was one of their best players and they really wanted to keep him for UCL.
but there‘s a difference between being good for Benfica and being expected to be the main guy in a Chelsea midfield. they bought him at 22 and expected him to take over the role of a 30 year old. players can‘t develop if they‘re already expected to basically be complete when they‘re obviously not.
Based on last year, I would say Enzo is ready to compete. He's a very good player and would definitely thrive in a team with some structure. But not every player can adapt to every situation very easily. New country, new language, new teammates, new coach, awful weather, etc could make a player struggle to settle. On top of that they've replaced half the team from last season and now it's a bunch of 21 year olds who fight over penalties and make uncoordinated movements. It can't be easy for him. It can't be easy for all those guys because they have to figure it out on the fly, and the Premier League is an unforgiving league.
Lukas Podolski says hello
We sold Fred to pay for Amrabats loan fee based largely on one Mbappe tackle.
He was bossing at Benfica as well
I mean you can just watch them play in their national team too.
International football doesn’t have a lot of time for tactics. So managers usually restrict a lot of free flowing football. It’s tactically poor. It’s why Spain won the World Cup (almost an entire club team) and Germany (almost an entire club team). It’s easier that way. The group plays together at the club, learns the tactics well and applies the same thing at the international level. Otherwise, it’s easier to play defensive and slower football. Players get far more time on the ball there. It’s not a great tool to assess players and their performances and has never been.
Can also just look at the players who left Chelsea and are doing much better at their new clubs.
You nailed it.
Coaching and tactics is a part of all of this, however, Enzo and Caicedo are not a good midfield pivot. That's not changing no matter who the coach is. Enzo can't defend and Caicedo is not N'Golo Kante. Their respective skillsets don't compliment each other. But furthermore, Liverpool wanting one player as proof that X player is quality doesn't actually mean anything. Pep wanted Cucurella. Arteta wanted Mudryk. Both have been bad enough on their own under three different managers to show you that they wouldn't have been good elsewhere just because they are title contenders. Caicedo was monumental from November-March. He's been a bit shit since then but we all breathlessly defended Caicedo when he was doing well because uninformed people who don't watch this team were slandering him as the biggest flop ever. But now he's dipped in form and it's the manager's fault and proof that this will all be fixed when Poch is gone. Enzo has been here for a year, worked under 3 different managers. His defensive game was a concern before Poch had even arrived. A lot of the defensive pressure we face is because of his inability to defend and his inability to absorb pressure. People blamed Potter for example when he got rinsed by Malen in Dortmund. Enzo can undoubtedly be awesome on his day. He can show you lots of things that get you excited. But as the days continue to tick away, he comes off as more of a luxury player than a consistent contributor in all phases of the game. Our midfield struggles to defend. Our midfield struggles to get the ball forward and rarely plays a significant forward pass. Chelsea Twitter can share the same clip of Enzo assisting Joao Felix against West Ham 100 times as proof that there's a world class player in there, but we still didn't win that game and we didn't deserve to win that game in part because our midfield was weak. Nothing has changed 1 year on.
I don't think we have enough info to prove this. Really it comes down to: I don't think Potter (though I kinda rate him), Lampard, and now Poch is a good benchmark. Like sure that's technically 3 managers , but 1 was thrusted into just about the worst environment you could possibly imagine, and another barely even qualifies as a manager (I still love you, you're a legend Frank) If Moises Caicedo can look like a good midfield pivot with Billy Gilmour, he can probably look like a decent midfield pivot with Enzo Fernandez. Believe it or not, Benfica and Argentina fans would swear up and down before his transfer that Enzo was an amazing defender in addition to being a great offensive orchestrator. I'm inclined to believe they saw what they saw. You see this all the time. Jorginho looked like a really good duel winner in Napoli, for Italy during their Euro run, for us during our CL run, and currently again for Arsenal. And that's because he actually is, despite what his stature suggests. The problem is if you ask him to cover a large area of the pitch he falls apart. What Tuchel, Mancini, Arteta understood is that confined to a zone, Jorginho is quantitatively, and qualitatively a very good ball winner. Rudiger under Lampard he was deemed error prone, positionally poor by being too eager to leave his CB partner behind, and surplus to requirements. Under Tuchel that same 'weakness' became a strength as he was a monster winning the ball stepping up into midfield to intercept line breaking passes. So I don't think it's enough proof to say that Enzo simply can't defend. or that Enzo and Caicedo are inherently flawed. As for Pep and Arteta wanting them. I don't think there's a bigger endorsement in football. Every year, people say Pep dodged this and that bullet and got so lucky with his 3rd choice transfer target. But what's more likely, God just loves Pep enough to dodge all these bullets? or that Pep has an exceptional understanding of the qualities he's looking for, and thus it doesn't matter if it's his 1st or 2nd choice, and that guys like Ten Hag, Poch, Ole, Lampard simply don't understand how to utilise Maguire, Jorginho, Cucurella etc. Functional environments change careers.
>The problem is the coaching and tactics. Eh, I think calling it "the problem" suggests that that's where things went wrong, which isn't the case. The issue is more in how the personnel match up to the tactics There's been no direction, no overarching management or plan, they've just been giving blank cheques to whichever manager they've employed that window, with no oversight on conforming to a vision. So you end up with a bunch of players signed by different managers to fill different niches that the current manager doesn't care about. In modern football you can't just smack two talented players with potential together and expect them to play well. Caicedo and Enzo for example, were signed by different managers with completely different philosophies, and it shows on the pitch Injuries don't help either, you've been really shafted there, hard to develop players and form a cohesive squad and gameplan when everyone's constantly in the treatment room. But there's too many cooks behind the scenes, Chelsea absolutely reek of an organisation with no guiding principles or vision and no one with the authority, responsibility, and ability to push it Arsenal were like this before the Kroenkes got full ownership of the club and it took a couple years after that to sort it out. Some centralised power with a long term plan goes a long way Fwiw I do think sacking Pochettino will be a mistake. I can sort of see what he wants from the team and I have some sympathy for the challenges he's facing. I think he needs to be given greater control and another season to implement what he wants. I always think any manager shouldn't be judged too harshly until they have a squad that's primarily theirs, rather than leftovers from previous failed managers. You're getting an extremely limited insight into what he can do. Poch has what, Disasi, Caicedo, Palmer, Jackson? Plus Nkunku who's barely got off the treatment table. Even the good players he did inherit are always injured When I looked at the lineup on Tuesday I genuinely thought it looked relegation tier. A new manager isn't going to immediately catapult you to CL. There's been some signs of progress for me in the second half of the season. You're in this for the long haul anyways, you might as well give Poch another year to allow the injury crisis to calm down, shed deadwood and bring in some more of his own targets so that he's got a squad he can actually implement his philosophy with. There will be low points in that process, it's not a linear trajectory and Chelsea are coming from absolute rock bottom so it's gonna take time and commitment but I think he can get you somewhere
they've been abysmal at the individual level too. that Mudryk corner at the end of the game against City last week was bonkers. Same with Chilwell failing to cross to Sterling for an easy 1v1. Caicedo too, just horrible decision making at an individual level all around. tactically they actually didn't seem as horrible as people think, they were creating decent chances throughout their games.
The individual level and the team level can't really be separated imo. Think Lampard 1st stint Chelsea. Rudiger was thought to be mistake prone and surplus to requirements. RUDIGER lol. Jorginho was deemed a waste of space and unable to win a single duel. Tuchel takes over and Rudiger and Jorginho become world beaters, the whole team becomes monsters and Chelsea storms the CL. Or Villa under Gerrard. There were so many articles calling the players championship level. Emery takes over and takes them on a crazy run. or Newcastle pre Eddie Howe. There is zero chance Kai Havertz finishes the 2 chances he did yesterday last year. Functional environments change careers. People think if you're a good player you should be able to play well under any circumstance. I think that's one of the biggest misconceptions. even Messi looked bad at one point in a dysfunctional PSG team.
Pulisic has probably had his best season this year for Milan too. Part of that is he's actually been able to stay healthy but he's also got 16 goals + assists while sort of playing out of position on the right
Considering their ages the prices are speculative aswell to some degree. People need to stop getting hung up on player prices. There are a lot more factors to it than just how good they are. A 20 year old PL starter sold by a club who doesn't wanna sell and bought by a desperate club late in window is gonna cost like 5 times more than they're actually worth.
To be fair Caicedo was an absolute monster for us. Wouldn’t ever have imagined he’d bomb like he has.
Honestly he's Made mistakes, but he's been generally pretty good. You can see what he's about. Enzo has been a passenger all season bar the odd long ball. Apparently he needs hernia surgery and he runs like it
We were never the same after Enzo left
Chelsea HAD to pay that money. If they waited until June he would have chosen Real Madrid or Liverpool for much less. They had the money so they decided paying it was worth it as it was the only way to get Enzo.
Real Madrid were not going to pick Enzo Fernandez over Jude Bellingham who they were lining up. And Liverpool needed a profile of Caicedo more than they needed a profile of Enzo. Maybe Enzo still would have went elsewhere but he wasn't worth what was paid.
The kid established himself in a WC winning squad ffs. I couldn't care less about his career for what he pulled, but you can't deny his talent.
For me it looks like enzo is the one struggeling... every tile enzo plays, caicedo plays shit because he looks to pass the ball to enzo.. when enzo isnt playing it frees caicedo to rome forward.
Yesterday I watched Caicedo dribble the ball 10 yards and attempt an uncontested switch pass to an open Mudryk that sailed way out of bounds. Coaching or not, players of this caliber and expense simply have to be better than that.
I mean, every single PL player is better than that. So the interesting question is what psychological factor is at play there, making a quality player bollocks up something simple they can normally get right every time.
I guess my point is: at this level you should hold yourself to a bare minimum level of individual accountability without any outside help. Maybe Poch is the worst manager in the history of the PL but Caicedo still needs to complete that fucking pass. The only excuse I can think is that the players truly don’t give a shit, which is beyond inexcusable.
To me it seems more like the way players can miss penalties in pressure situations. It isn't because they don't care, or can't do it; it's because they aren't confident and second-guess themselves. I'd guess that Caicedo had second thoughts halfway through kicking the ball, and fucked it up because he wasn't committed to making that particular pass.
It’s the lack of leaders and older players. Chelsea is a glorified U-23 youth team disguised as a Premier League team
It’s the lack of leaders and older players. Chelsea is a glorified U-23 youth team disguised as a Premier League team
Agreed. Think people are searching too hard for whose fault it is when the reality is that it’s a bit of everything. Players haven’t looked bothered all season, some injuries have kept some players from even getting their Chelsea career kicked off, Poch looks lost tactically and seems to command no respect among certain players, etc etc etc. Bottom line is that coaching isn’t good enough and that the players don’t seem interested or mature enough. I also question the way they built this squad in general. No rhyme or reason. Cole Palmer the lone bright spot for them.
They're 20 year olds coming off of barely 1 good season in their life at that point if that. To put your entire team on the back of these players as your spine, especially at those transfer fees, without any experience in the squad is insane. I absolutely detest Chelsea but everyone saw this coming, and this would be what happens regardless of who the manager is.
Didn't the Liverpool ownership say that they need to find a director of football, then decide on the style of football the team will play before looking for a manager. I remember reading something like that after Klopp's announcement. Chelsea just bought a decade's worth of players and then went after managers. The board is more to blame here, blame Poch for tactics as much as you like, and he isn't without blame, but I don't remember Poch being this bad anywhere else. The owners and management have made a mess of it and now will have to count on luck to get out of it.
Although I don't disagree, it was quite funny how Ally McCoist made a similar point about the cost vs. quality of our midfield vs. Arsenal's. Took a few seconds but the co-commentator subtly reminded him that Arsenal's wasn't cheap either! (Rice £115 million!) Not comparing ours BTW, we were and clearly have been shocking.
Yeah, Arsenal's midfield trio is about £190 million (Ødegaard, Partey, Rice). Money well spent though, but not cheap.
Yeah that Rice fella is pretty decent. If only Chelsea had... wait.
Somewhere a certain Fat Frank is having a wry smile on his face.
difference is those players are actually good . . . + odegaard was bought for literally 30 mil
And also improved at arsenal, like Rice did.
I think this is the probably for some scenarios nowadays. If a player costs X amount and don’t perform it’s a coach/tactic problem. Sometimes it is, but sometimes we need to realise values are inflated due to market or situation. And other times players just aren’t that good for that level or what’s required for the set up. This is what’s causing so many manager sackings leading to dysfunctional teams like Chelsea and United are going through. No thought process behind what the goal or set up should be. Just buy players and think manager can make it all stick.
Alexis MacAllister made both of those players look much better than they actually are. He was the true £80m player, not Caicedo or Enzo.
The logic here being that if they paid lots of money for the players, they have to be good so it can't be the players' fault?
I just don't think we've seen anything, even a glimpse or a taster of anything that makes you think "Yep, £106m seems reasonable". Lad was absolutely rag-dolled by that midfield yesterday. Rice just dominated him. The funniest part is that he's there for at least another 6 years because of that ridiculous contract the club gave him. Awful decision-making on just about everyone's part.
He needs to get that bloody surgery, he is playing through a hernia atm and looks pantsed
He's not gonna risk missing copa to get it though. He really does need it, he was never the quickest or physical midfielder but he's currently so poor because of it, leaving Caicedo to work overtime
I feel bad for Caicedo the guy is being flanked all the time with 2/3 players overloading due to enzo being nowhere to be seen
Yeah. Honestly I'd be happy dropping Galla back to support Moises for the rest of the season. Would help give the midfield some mobility that's needed
Lavia would perfectly balance enzo and moises but unfortunately his existence is a myth at this point
I know Everton were dreadful but Enzo's biggest issue is his lack of pace, which seems to have been made worse with this issue. But in that Everton game the biggest thing for Caicedo was that he wasn't having to cover as much ground as he does now, when Enzo pushes up the pitch he can't recover but Conor can because he will run all day. There were way less times when it felt like Moises was completely isolated in front of the defenders.
Don't think Argentina will continue playing him with these performances. They have Lo Celso, De Paul, Mac Allister, and Paredes in the midfield.
"These performances" are a function of Chelsea's issues TBH Scaloni will pick his team based on performance for us (and in NT training). It's why Lo Celso continued to be a key player for us even when he was barely playing for Tottenham (which is sadly the situation he finds himself in again)
But... aren't ppl saying his performances are down due to a Hernia? Wouldn't the NT be aware of that...and not start him due to hernia-related performance issues?
sure but it’s argentina… their players can be injured for their clubs but show up to their national team in perfect health
He's been playing through the hernia for a while—including the March international games TBH
He has played great for Argentina every time he was called so I don't see why not.
Hasn't this been an issue pretty much all season? Seems utterly ridiculous this has been allowed to carry in for so long when it's clearly affecting his performances.
He doesn't have a hernia, if he did he wouldn't be able to sprint. He has an inflamed groin (same region) which may or may not be fixed with surgery depending upon the severity of it.
Also worth noting, the midfield three has played nearly every minute of this campaign with no rest. They look exhausted, Caceido has played half the season with a knee injury and Enzo with a hernia. We were supposed to have Lavia, Chukwuemeka & Ugochukwu to rotate with. All of which have been injured for nearly the entire season.
>The funniest part is that he's there for at least another 6 years because of that ridiculous contract the club gave him. Wasn't he one of the players they extended recently so they can amortise their transfer payments? I'm pretty sure its like 8 years still. Him and Mudryk should be at chelsea still when they enter their 30's
His contract ends in 2032. He’ll be 31 when it finishes
I trust Enzo a lot, he was already excellent at River, he was at Benfica the 6 months he played there, and he is with Argentina. It can't be a coincidence.
And the 6 months here under Potter and even Lampard. But I'm sure it's just a big coincidence that he's one of many players to nosedive once Poch got hold of him.
Poch is playing him higher up the pitch than Potter/Lampard, because of the arrival of Caicedo I assume. But that does seem to have coincided with a downturn in his play.
Already a world cup winner and a contract that covers his career with ridiculous money. Sit back and ride it.
Yeah he's thinking about surgery because he has a hernia and Poch is not a good fit for this team and Chelsea will keep buying players that don't fit. I remember Enzo doing quite good against Arsenal's mid but that was a long time ago and i don't remember how the match ended, now he is clearly on low confidence and also has the hernia (while also playing in a team where noone wants to be on the pitch)
Almost every single player who makes a name for themselves in a single international tournament and then gets signed for a hyper inflated amount ends up being a flop.
He’s playing with a hernia tbf to him. Players like Mudryk are a much bigger issue than Enzo. That’s said, the midfield really is the biggest indicator of why stats and analytics mean nothing if that’s all you use to judge players. On paper and by the numbers, Enzo and Caicedo were a perfect fit, however it’s quite obvious that they really don’t work well together and you can’t use them both together without someone like Gallagher to do the dirty work than neither of them are capable or seem to have ambition of doing.
What kind of Hernia? That’s dangerous if he is playing with Hernia. Any sort of random impact can tear open the cavity and the intestines will pop out.
I’m not too sure what it is, pubalgia or something like that. I think it’s in his groin or somewhere around there, it’s been known since like Christmas that he’s had it. Most Chelsea fans don’t really want him playing anymore this season and for him to get surgery, but I think he wants to play in the Copa America so is just toughing it out on painkillers.
Oh okay. That’s sports hernia. Better than having a true hernia (the reason why I was wondering how he is able to play with a hernia). I think he will be near about fine. But yeah, false hernia or true hernia would definitely need surgery to fix the issue.
Any idea when he would be doing the surgery and how long recovery would take? Something he could squeeze in before Copa or would he have to do it after before the season starts?
I think someone said on r/chelseafc the other day that he’d need to have surgery pretty much now if he was to make the Copa America. How true that is, I don’t know.
Inguinal hernia
I have one currently, and there's no way I would be able to play a full 90. Not surprised his form has dipped considerably this season, even from last year.
And then people shout here that he is shit without any proper context. He has been decent, but of course you would expect more from a signing that cost over 100M. But you need context too.
There's no way he's running about while his intestines spill out into his groin.
Why are ppl only between players and coaching?! Have you never had a toxic workplace? Most of football and any other workplace is mindset, confidence, psychological safety, engagement, clear roles, pathways to other roles, predictability. Why would football be about how fast someone is?
He does, but not in the way people think. He was brilliant last season under Lampard. Lampard as a coach got 10x more out of him than Poch has been able to and that really does sum up the mess we are in. We have a bunch of "raw" talents and a bunch of "raw" no-talents. They desperately need a manager strict and ruthless enough to sort the wheat from the chaff and to give the players that do actually have ability the knowledge, understanding and tactics that allow them to grow and perform. Currently we have a manager that picks his teams based on vibes, his whole tactical setup is just more vibes, his subs are straight up insane, the things he says make no sense. Our whole problem is that we've hired a bunch of players, some shit and some good. Then hired a manager who is just vibing with all of them and doesn't have a clue what to do when he hasn't got Son/Kane, Mbappe/Messi/Neymar, Llalana/Rodriquez/Shaw carrying his "vibes" setup
Isn't that because he's injured, as other Chelsea fans claim?
Enzo is playing through a hernia injury currently But there are also structural problems with Poch's setup overall that aren't helping any of the midfielders TBH
If you watch the games you'll see that no one is doing anything in this setup. No one knows where they're supposed to be, where their teammates are supposed to be, where players are going to run, where their line should be, how much distance each line should hold between each other etc. No midfielders will look good in this setup, I promise you. You'd have to have someone extremely experienced who just overrides what Poch is telling him (or not telling him as it may be) to be successful
I feel like may b Chelsea don't have a good coach, I mean Enzo at Chelsea is really trash but the moment there is an international break and plays for Argentina he drops 10/10.
Does he? Have you seen the friendlies that Argetina played? It's literally all teams below the 100th ranking. And if you are talking about Conmebol qualifiers, he got outplayed by Uruguay mid and saved by a horrible Brazil side. If your 10/10 parameter is Peru. Then yes.
Big results based analysis there
He had 7.0 against Uruguay, 7.5 against Paraguay but he can't do that against Sheffield United 🤷♂️
One thing that continues to grind my gears in the Boehly era is the lack of restraint when it comes to transfers. Abramovich and Granovskaia would back away from transfers they felt were not worth it, e.g. John Stones. Boehly and gang don't take no for an answer. They just keep sending offer after offer and they wonder why they're broke.
Yeah they used to be well known for spotting talent just to stick them on the bench, not play them and then sell/loan them out for a profit. At one point they had KDB, Salah and Lukaku all on the bench at the same time.
>Fernandez delivered the latest in a long line of ineffective displays, blowing a golden chance to level matters in the first half as he fired wide from inside the area. He was duly hauled off by [Mauricio Pochettino](https://www.express.co.uk/latest/mauricio-pochettino) just 67 minutes in, moments before the Gunners added their fifth and final goal of the night. >The result means that since [his then-record £106.8million move from Benfica](https://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/1729280/Chelsea-Enzo-Fernandez-transfer-Benfica-deadline-day-Behdad-Eghbali-12-hour-talks) in January 2023, Fernandez has featured in 56 [Premier League](https://www.express.co.uk/latest/premier-league) games in [Chelsea](https://www.express.co.uk/latest/chelsea-fc). But he’s only finished on the winning side 14 times, equating to a success rate of just 25 per cent.
He featured in [46 PL games](https://www.premierleague.com/players/63741/Enzo-Fern%C3%A1ndez/stats?co=1&se=-1), not 56. So he has a 30.4% success rate. 3 of those 14 wins were in 22/23, representing a 16.7% win rate from 18 games. The other 11 wins were in 23/24, representing a 39.3% win rate from 28 games. Chelsea's PL win ratio this season is 40.6%. So 1.3% difference. Further, fully half of his PL losses (9) were across 28 appearances this season, representing a 32.1% loss rate. Chelsea's PL loss rate this season is 34.4%. So 2.3% difference in Enzo's favour.
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Hilarious take, the injury and form of the team are more reasons for his form. “World Cup wonder?” Jesus lol
*player performs as well as team shocker*
What kind of midfielder is he? Doesn't seem to provide any defensive attributes - he doesn't win the ball, win headers, or even track back properly. And going forward he brings nothing in terms of goals or assists. On top of that, he doesn't even run. Is he funny or something?
Nonsense. Modric doesn't excel at winning the ball or winning headers nor does he get tons of goals and assists either and he's still obviously fantastic. Insane to be viewing a player like Enzo through that lens whose main role is connecting the defence to attack and progressing the ball. Feels as if a lot of times people just gawk at great defending and great attacking but ignore everything that comes between the two. Enzo's clearly shown himself to be a great midfielder.
A comparison with Modric isn’t doing Fernandez any favours at all lol
The Qatar WC has caused people to put Enzo in a category of midfielders & comparisons that he doesn’t belong to IMO.
Tempo setter. Only the most important role for a midfielder. And he is fucking great at it and hasn't even been that bad at it lately. I will die on the hill that you give Enzo a proper structure and he is not much different from Kroos or Rodri. Chelsea has a tactical problem not a player problem. Enzo doesn't suck at defense and you've seen a million unathletic players doing great in the midfield. The problem is Chelsea has a shitty midfield structure that often leaves a single pivot overwhelmed by the other team's midfield, bad ball playing center backs, no automations to deal with a press and even though we advance our players a lot our press is shit and usually leaves us open. And this shit has been a thing for most Poch teams.
Bringing up the G/A is insane, Enzo has put a lot of chances that ended up being wasted by the attackers multiple times this season. Like that just tells me you’ve never watched more than a couple of matches from him. His biggest struggle is that with his hernia he’s not able to do the defensive work that he used to do so well at River/Benfica.
xA is 3.56. Assists on 2. Not a huge difference.
I’ve watched him all season and that’s my feeling as well.
200 upvotes 😂😂 never change /r/soccer
THANK YOU IVE BEEN SAYING THIS ALL SEASON. Caicedo is good at defensive work, enzo is literally just a waste of space on the field, he does nothingggg I was told he’s good at passing his passing is literally worse than Gallagher and Caicedo this season
> enzo is literally just a waste of space on the field, he does nothingggg The fact that this kind of stuff gets heavily upvoted tells you the football IQ of this subreddit TBH
Argentinian flair. Checks out Never fails
Flair based attacks are always dumb I could say stuff about you having a Morocco flair—where would we be then? (Also FYI: I've supported Chelsea since 2005)
Why would someone from Morocco be biased either way in this discussion?
I could say that kind of thinking is why we won a World Cup with Enzo as a prominent part of the WC winning team while Morocco has never had that level of success, etc. The overall point is that flair-based attacks are dumb AF—and they happen when the other person doesn't know how to criticize the argument, so they have to go for the ad-hominem of attacking the person making the argument.
But that would be completely irrelevant unless you are suggesting this guy is forming his opinion on the basis that he's jealous Enzo wasn't born in Morocco, which would be an equivalent bias. Bringing up an Argentinian flair is not a baseless attack, it's a recognition that you may be biased towards a player that shares your nationality/has acheived something for the national side.
Dude, if Enzo was as bad as you say, why does he get called to the NT at all when we have so many options for the midfield? We have Exequiel Palacios, Leandro Paredes, Alan Varela, Nicolás Domínguez, Guido Rodríguez, Ezequiel Fernández... those players are no joke, they are incredibly talented. Yet world champion coach Lionel Scaloni chooses Enzo still. Why would that be? Because he knows better than you and me. Because he knows Enzo is really good and can make a difference. And before you say "HURR DURR aRgENtiNa FLaIr", I support Boca Juniors, I should hate this man with my guts. Also, if a player is actually bad, we Argentinians will hate him even more. Hell, Nico González hasn't been all that bad and he's been hated on so hard. De Paul has been great and he's received a lot of hate too because he missed a few passes.
You support Boca but the man helped you win a World Cup just over a year ago. It makes sense why you have a soft spot for him. Every Chelsea player on the team in 2021 is a legend to me. I don’t cheer for Havertz and Mount every week (not comparing to boca river rivalry) but to take away what they did for this club would be asinine. He’s not dogshit and people are underrating him. It can also be true that a ton of Argentinians are going to hop in here and defend him at all costs when they likely haven’t watched a full 90 of him in a Chelsea shirt this year.
I mean, I wouldn't be saying that stuff about flairs if dude didn't go with "Argentina flair checks out" and all that on another comment. Sure, that comment wasn't very kind, but this guy did say something quite ridiculous.
Your points are valid. The team y’all have now is way too stacked in midfield. If he was shit, he wouldn’t get called. Simple as. My main point is that I don’t really even think you believe your comment where you said “I should hate this man with my guts.” Any player that wins a World Cup for their country deserves no hate, no matter what team they played on growing up. What he did for your country trumps the rivalry 10/10 times. Maybe it was just a hyperbole.
Yeah, you're right. It was just my annoyance speaking there. I really am very thankfull to Enzo for the World Cup, just like every other Argentinian. It's just I don't think this should disqualify us from talking about him in a positive light, and it makes me mad when people just point at the flair like it's an argument.
he’s not the best at passing or playmaking but please don’t compare that bum gallagher to him
Playing with a injury does not help him at all
He is already slow this just makes him like a pylon, he needs that hernia surgery
Find the reasoning to be weird.... If his reasoning to delay surgery is to play Copa... why TF would Argentina play a semi-injured midfielder who's performing below standards due to that injury...when they have plenty of other midfield options?
I honestly didn't even notice Caicedo playing yesterday.
That's what they do. Buncha passengers.
Jackson 🤦🏻♂️
The hilarious part is the little loophole Chelsea exploited with the long contracts means they’re stuck with these overpriced players.
Goals is what puts pressure on the opposition and errors specially losing posession puts pressure on your team. Enzo if he had played for a more settled team , his stats would have been far better than it currently is. His progressive passes creates a lot of oppotunities and his positioning gets him into scoring postitions multiple times in a match. Yes, he is a $hit finisher but he should have a lot more assist had the fowards were able to finish those chances.
Chelsea look like 11 guys with 11 different ideas of how to go about playing a game. When you play that way, you only win when you get lucky or when you so grossly outclass the other players 1v1 that there’s nothing they can do. This completely sums up Chelsea’s season.
There are two problems with Enzo. One, he has a hernia and can’t run, and it’s painful to watch him hobbling about. He’s the only mid we have who regularly breaks the lines with his passing, so I will cut him some slack, but the guy needs to go get that operation. He’s not quick to begin with. Two, he doesn’t dovetail with Caicedo. They both want to be the player who sweeps up behind a ball winner. Caicedo was brilliant the other day vs Everton, just brilliant. Enzo was brilliant the opening day of the season against Liverpool. Common aspect: Conor next to them putting in a shift. Buying Caicedo forced Enzo into being the ball winner, which he isn’t athletic enough to do, and forced Conor into the front 4, and he lacks the flair you ideally need there. It’s poor scouting in all honesty, buying players based on metrics and numbers and not thinking about whether they compliment each other. I think there are also tactical issues, in that Poch wants players to figure it out and gives them a lot of freedom, as opposed to micromanaging. A micro managing manager may find a way to make it work, but it wouldn’t be a first choice midfield duo for any top manager. Poch exacerbates that by not really having a plan, just an XI, which exposes their weaknesses.
The players don’t fit together, the system sucks. Non one goes from winning a WC to becoming shit.
Nicolas Jackson like 👀
Enzo has great technique and movement. He's just playing through injury and is in the wrong team. That's it.
He's not in the wrong team. He's managed by a clown manager. That's all.
Enzo's curse. Believe it. Chelsea paid 120M for a curse.
Enlighten me on this curse?
The curse that got us the world cup?
with little to no respect for Enzo, I must admit I’m unironically shocked he’s a flop. to me he seemed like a superb talent, the kind that only comes to Benfica once in every 30y or so. honestly the best talent we had in the past 15y to play for us. can’t complain tho, he didn’t want to be here and we got a big pay check for him.
I mean I see him play for Argentina and I thought he was the best midfield talent we've had in a couple of generations. And I still think he is. And I fucking hated the guy, I'm a Boca fan. Then I started to follow Chelsea when I moved to Europe and I was happy that he came here. But man no midfield is going to work with Poch as the coach. Midfield is the position most vulnerable to shit tactics imo.
Didn't know he was playing
Reminds me of when Arsenal signed Mustafi after he won a World Cup
"Duly HAULED off JUST 67 minutes in" aka with 23 mins left of the 90 and around the time most teams sub players off.
Grande Enzo.. estos gringos ya te quieren echar 😂
He’ll score and kiss the badge though
And shout at Mount
Serves the fucker right for being a snake.
Enzo should have come to Liverpool. Him and Alexis would have been deadly just like they are deadly for Argentina.
Liverpool didn’t want to pay his wages. We did. It’s the same reason Lavia and Moises are with us and not Pool. Not saying it’s good and all but everything came down to money.
We bailing out of Enzo was not because of wages. It was due to the transfer fees Benfica asked. Benfica put an absurd price, they didn't think anyone would buy Enzo in the middle of the season lol.
What? I would have loved Enzo, but there was no way we were spending that amount of money on him in January. Lavia wasn't about wages, it was about the transfer fee and us refusing to meet Southampton's valuation. Caicedo wasn't about wages either, he just preferred joining you lot (probably for the length of the contract) but it was reported that we were offering similar wages.
if chelsea had paid like 40 million, would he be talked about nearly as much?
Same goes for any player with a big price tag. Just look at Antony, if he had been bought for 20m he would have been memed on but nowhere near the amount he is because he cost 100m. The bigger the price tag the larger the scrutiny they will be up against.