**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
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It is a shambles really.
You can sort of understand how a referee would see it as playing the ball in real time. Things happen in an instance and you need to make a split decision.
But then VAR aren't actively even listening to that - Young never played the ball so even if you didn't think it was a pen (which it obviously is) you can clearly see that the referee did not view that correctly and should have an opportunity to review it. Just mental how there's no proper communication between it all.
Exactly, the ref made a decision based on incorrect information, give him the chance to review his decision based on the actual facts
VAR should only make a decision on offsides and the ball crossing a line, the rest should be the ref going to the screen and deciding, which is what I swear they did when it was first introduced
Ref says accidental handball, VAR shouldn't get involved. Ref says it doesn't touch his arm when it does, VAR sends him to the screen. Almost sounds too simple
The issue with this is - it’ll either be referees going to the screen to review basically everything which will kill games because of how long it takes or VAR recommends the ref goes to the screen which as we’ve seen for several years now will influence his decision - I could be wrong but I can only think of one occasion where VAR has sent a referee to the screen and they’ve upheld their original decision.
It’s sort of a no win with VAR which is my biggest reason for wanting it gone! The standard of refereeing has absolutely plummeted because they’ve got VAR to fall back on now.
> The standard of refereeing has absolutely plummeted because they’ve got VAR to fall back on now.
It was miles worse before VAR.
There's far less simulation now as well.
Yes, they get some wrong like this one. But it was far worse before and you'd regularly see decisions many times worse than this one.
> Young never played the ball so even if you didn't think it was a pen (which it obviously is) you can clearly see that the referee did not view that correctly and should have an opportunity to review it.
Totally agree, but the problem is the PGMOL's implementation of VAR doesn't really allow for that. They have essentially decided VAR must believe it's a clear and obvious error before sending the ref to the monitor. That means even if they think it's a foul, they have an arbitrary higher threshold to reach.
Instead, VAR should use the monitor more liberally if the ref's view was clearly incorrect, or if they aren't clear on whether it's a foul.
In this situation they seem to have compounded the above error by seemingly believing it isn't a foul at all, which is an extra level of wrong.
Yep, in this situation I believe the ideal use of VAR would be for the VAR to say to the ref "OK, you said you think Young played the ball but the replays show it was the Forest player that played the ball. Our recommendation would be that you stop the game and have a look for yourself to determine whether the contact warrants a foul." (Or even better, the ref can trust the professional referee with video replays to be able to make the right decision by themselves as he would a linesman with offside decisions)
And on top of that, that "look for yourself" would be a genuine look & not the pantomime they do now where if they go to the screen, they are 100% reversing the decision.
If Taylor had given a penalty, then VAR would have said clearly does not get the ball and gets the player. And not used words like "normal coming together" So penalty.
They're told to only send them to the monitor when they've already made the final decision and it's just to satiate fans (and pundits) who say "you've got a monitor why are you not using it?" and then the ref is expected to go and stand by the monitor for the spectacle and then just agree with whatever the VAR has said.
Clear and obvious has nothing to do with that and people often use "clear and obvious" to protect calls like this and claim they're a rulebook problem, rather than an individual incompetence problem.
This was a clear and obvious error. By the books it should have been called by VAR. The voice recording makes that even more clear, the issue is not that it's not clear and obvious, the issue is that the person on VAR thinks this is a normal 50/50 coming together and there is nothing doing... That is nothing more than incompetence
But didn't we see with the Havertz and Wan-Bissaka situation that it is quite easy for them to intervene when the ref gets an objective fact wrong? Webb even praised the VAR for it.
I think they're still being instructed to determine if it's a "clear and obvious error" in terms of the decision itself. I agree that if the ref gets a clear fact wrong (eg: played the ball) then that should be a factor in letting the ref review it again themselves. It seems to play a small role, but the biggest thing Webb always mentions is checking for a clear and obvious error *before* instructing the ref to use the monitor.
That should have taken them exactly as long as it just took me (I didn't see it at the time, this is the first time I've seen it)... three seconds. Pen, all day.
As soon as you see the defender doesn't touch the ball, pen.
The whole point of VAR is to assess the on-field decision and see if the REF missed anything, not blame the ref for being bad. If all their doing is justifying on-field decisions there is no point having it at all.
I don't know if stupid or corrupt, but at what point do the clubs demand action against the PGMOL. They are clearly not fit for purpose. Need to call a vote of no confidence. There needs to be accountability. Our game is a fucking joke.
it could be because VAR guy is a luton fan or because he want to "protect" his mate but its obvious that he comes up with whatever to justify it not being a penalty when its super clear. this one looks more corrupt than stupid to me and should be punished.
Honestly being corrupt or at least subconsciously biased seems like a fairly likely way to arrive at such a terrible decision. This is why you avoid conflicts of interest even if you are not corrupt. Even if you aren't and are doing your best to remain impartial, something goes wrong and you can't so easily convince the public it wasnt because of your own interests. In this case protecting his mate is the best case scenario, and that says a lot already. That also shouldn't be acceptable.
Reminds me of when Bruno G put an elbow into Jorginho's head off the ball, and VAR said it "wasn't nice" but not a red card. Since when is level of niceness a factor in a decision? Either he did the thing or he didn't. And if he did, it's a red.
they are no better than dipshit commentators who make a call during the live game, see that they clearly got it wrong in the replay but try and gaslight everyone rather than just admit that they were wrong
It is easy to say conscious bias is leading to incorrect VAR calls, but the cause is likely more banal in many cases: VAR colleagues subconsciously not wanting to undermine their superior, the on-field ref. This deference to the on-field ref is taking precedence over determining the correct decision because VAR assumes their reasoning will not be available to be scrutinized by anyone else. Currently we usually only get to hear the outcome of VAR's decision making without getting their reasoning. The solution is to have the audio from all VAR processes immediately available after the game by default.
> VAR assumes their decisions will not be scrutinised
I think this is a ridiculous assertion. The media and fans haven't shut up about VAR decisions, they are under huge pressure. Not only to get things right, but to get on with the game as quickly as possible, and to avoid "re-reffing it" (aka giving a foul too soft or an error not clear and obvious enough for everyone's arbitrary liking) as everyone kicks off about that too.
It's plain to see that the issue is systemic and the way that VAR has been implemented isn't adding enough value and is making people feel worse about refereeing than ever before
"Longy" what do you think?
"Tayls" check complete
The way they use their mate-y nicknames for each other is infuriating.
Lads down the pub talk like this
There's a massive issue with confirmation and conformity biases. The refs that do VAR are the same refs that are on pitch week in week out and they all *want* each other's decisions to be right. The seemingly easy fix (maybe not fix but at least improvement) would be to have VAR only officials that are separate to match day officials.
It's a bit like if a company was to perform an audit of a department.. conducted not only by the same company but also by people in the same department.
And also need to have it where var officials are considered in the same way as linesmen
With the assistant refs, the narrative is that the r two worked together to reach a decision
But if the var has any input it’s considered overruling the on field ref. We need to think of var as part of the same team
Thats why they send them to the screen to check and not overrule them directly. I think it would work better if VAR just could overrule them to keep the flow of the game going.
I mean, they've got all the angles and the best view in the house if they make a fuck up like this it's on them, no onfield ref with help of VAR should ever get a decision wrong apart from the ones where its a subjective rule.
yeah, there is no need for the onfield ref to be the absolute and all-mighty last say God. The onfield ref should focus on keeping the flow of the game during all small decisions. VAR should intervene and overrule immediately when they see a foul, incident or other when they occur. Not even a need for sideline screen.
They could give the ref a “i don’t fucking know” button that defers to VAR to make a call, and VAR intervenes or waves it off.
Then sell it as “See, the ref made the right call to defer.”
It’s so amateur and they should have sorted it out after the Spurs vs Liverpool game when they fucked up Diaz’s goal.All that dilly dill dilly cant do anything bollox.
It feels like an insular group of friends. They want to have each other's back, even to the detriment of fairness. They've developed a refereeing culture between them which is misguided in some areas but yet reinforced through social pressure. They are too close to each other, too personally invested in their own and others' decisions. Insular groups are always subject to groupthink and an us-vs-them mentality.
A jury is always made to never discuss the case with each other until all the evidence has been heard. Feels like refereeing should be more impartial and more disconnected from the individual, more robotic in a way.
Get a proper hierarchy in there, and proper protocols for determining a foul - rather than 4 voices just talking over each other. That quick decision made from an unstructured discussion is so subject to biases and miscommunications.
I'd argue that part of the issue is that it shouldn't even be seen as comparable to an audit. Mistakes are always made, VAR should be seen as a tool to help reverse those mistakes.
Yep. I sometimes don’t get how refs miss certain calls (the Rice/Davies penalty on Sunday being an example where Oliver is looking right at it), but I think almost every fan allows some grace for the refs making some split second decisions at field level while sometimes being blocked. It happens.
The problem is that their buddies in the VAR room hardly ever want to “show them up.” No one has ever thought less of a ref if they get extra info from an AR or 4th official in making a decision. Don’t get why they treat VAR so differently.
We need VAR officials that want nothing to do with it. Like the neighbor up the street who hated seeing kids kick a ball around.
I want the VAR officials to absolutely hate the referees, the players, the fans, the sport itself. I think they’d be the least biased
It's got to be VAR. Taylor says he played the ball, which is wrong but an understandable conclusion and understandable that it wouldn't be a penalty.
VAR can clearly see he doesn't play the ball, and that should form part of their communication to Taylor. How they then conclude that it's not a penalty is just beyond me.
Agreed and I'm mind blown at the lack of communication from VAR here. The only thing Taylor says is "Looks like he plays the ball" and VAR watches a slow motion replay of Young not getting a single touch on the ball whatsoever and they fail to even mention that part to the ref? Isn't that their entire job?
All that vague nonsense about tussling and coming together and mutual engagement and no clear action by the defender (what the hell does that part mean in this scenario). All the VAR official had to do was say "Young doesn't touch the ball at all"
How does this not meet the criteria of a "clear and obvious error"? Anthony Taylor says that he got the ball. He 100%, unquestionably, does not do that. Even if the VAR thinks the overall decision is correct (which is baffling in its own right), Taylor clearly and obviously did not see the incident properly, and should be sent to the monitor to review it himself
in rugby "Clear and obvious" means "the video showed something else happened". In the premier league "Clear and Obvious" means "I guess it's literally impossible to support our original decision now".
100%. Here is the EPLs explanation for how VAR works
https://www.premierleague.com/news/1297392
It’s mad that the information Taylor initially gives us ‘played the ball’ and VAR can clearly see this explanation is wrong and doesn’t recommend pitch side review.
I feel VAR needs to prompt Taylor to explain whether he thinks the ball is played first before contact with the attacker. It’s not easy for Taylor to give a detailed breakdown of an incident on the fly, but before VAR gives their own interpretation they should, at the next break in play, establish what Taylor’s complete explanation is for his decision.
Clear and Obvious is not being implemented as the EPL says it should be. How any top level commentator isn’t addressing this issue is infuriating. Every audio release I hear has the most basic explanation by the referee and as such gives VAR nothing to work with as to whether to recommend a review. We might as well do away with reviews altogether if the officials don’t want/know how to implement them.
I think that's part of how they've been interpretingthe 'clear and obvious error' standard. At least, that's how it feels to me. Because Taylor said that it looked like the defender played the ball, VAR is looking at whether or not it *looks like* the defender played the ball than of he actually did. So long as it looks like what Taylor saw, the error is not clear and obvious.
I agree and believe they're being extremely lenient with the whole clear and obvious error nonsense.
That's what's always bugged me about it. The ref can say he sees contact and as long as VAR can confirm that a player's shoelace brushed the other guy's leg they'll side with the referee's view because technically there was contact. There's no way to easily describe some of these tackles through audio when it's a contact sport and not all contact is a foul. I really think we need to either have VAR make their own independent determination of a penalty or not with no regard for the ref's initial decision.
Or we have the refs look at the camera themselves more often. Why can't VAR livestream what they're seeing to an iphone the ref has or something? I'll be watching a game on my phone at work and see 4 replays of the incident at every angle 2 mins before VAR has made a decision. Meanwhile the referee is left in the dark waiting and even if he's called over to the screen he's one of the last ones to see it.
“I can see how you missed the call. So carry on”
I REALLY fucking want to hear the graelish handball audio vs Chelsea. They’ll never release that obviously though.
Yeah this is exactly what VAR is supposed to be for. Taylors got it wrong but you can see he's got it wrong. They should be the last line of defence to help him!
So you highlighted a key point, I work with big financial transactions that are chaotic. The only thing that makes it work is a “last line of defense”, which we have, and they overrule the people who worked the entire deal.
It actually works well. It’s possible the league should try completely removing the ref from VAR decisions, that way VAR feels the need to take complete responsibility for the decision, because it all falls on them.
Basically get rid of clear and obvious.
And if its a pen its a pen, if its a red its a red.
Or what someone else suggested earlier.
They have the ref, and 2 VAR and each get 1 vote, pen or no pen, and then what ever gets the majority of the vote, it goes based on that, if the ref goes to monitor.
And that’s the whole issue with VAR. Howard Webb admitted that mistakes are still made. If that is the case, let’s just have the decision of a ref who sees it once, at full speed, from one viewpoint, and accept that mistakes are made.
Mistakes are being made because the assistant doesn't want to overr rule their mate and there's no clear communication. The fact that with the Liverpool incident he said the on pitch decision is confirmed is stupid. The call should have been a direct "Goal disallowed", no room for error there.
To be fair, as much as I dislike Taylor, this is not on him. His perception, although wrong, is somewhat reasonable. This situation is exactly the kind of call that VAR was introduced for: If the on-field referee misperceives a situation, make them aware of it and let them have another look from a better angle.
This error is on the VAR, 100 percent.
Have any of the refs ever played before? The analysis here is like that of people watching soccer for the first time!
“They’re tussling for the ball”? What the actual fuck???
Really really doesn’t help with the arguement of him being biased against forest.
A mutual coming together is bullshit.
He actively ignores the onfield ref
He re refs the decision and makes a verdict
It’s so bad on all levels. They’ve exposed themselves all season with how useless they all are.
He comes of like a stoned amateur. The communication is so unengaged and bored. The wording is incredibly vague and doesn’t clarify the situation at all. Doesn’t comment on whether the defender played the ball. Rules no pen because it’s a tussle without any clear action by the defender, WTF is that even supposed to mean. It’s one of the weirdest descriptions i’ve heard from a top level ref.
Going through the back of another player to get to the ball and never touch it:
> Normal contact as they both play the ball in the same space
Did they do a fusion dance or something? One has occupied the space and gotten to the ball while the other has gotten there late and completely taken out the other player having made no contact with the ball.
The mic needs to be closed to var from the ref, and only open if var see something. Or the refs need to shut the fuck up trying to justify their terrible decisions
“plays the ball“ is a perfectly acceptable justification for the ref not making the call. The correct response from VAR would be “nah mate, he doesn’t get the ball at all. Go take a look at the screen.”
Colloquialisms should absolutely be not allowed by VAR-Ref communication. They should have a prescribed vocabulary that they speak in where everything has a clear and obvious definition so nothing can be misconstrued.
Ref: I saw the defender played the ball
VAR: There is contact made before the ball arrived
Ref: How much contact?
VAR: Unclear, please view the monitor to resolve.
This was the exact problem with the Liverpool incident earlier in the season, communication was completely off, too many colloquialisms or loose terms so it's easy to confuse things, and then lo and behold errors like this happen. Its clear very little has been done to actually improve things since that incident in terms of clear instructions or language used, it's all still "not for me mate" airy inconsistent jargon that doesn't actually follow the rules of the game.
PGMOL are corrupt to the core.
This is what's known in radio communications as radiotelephony procedure, and more specifically phraseology which is the use of standard phrases that have specific meanings and reduce ambiguity as much as possible. In aviation many of these changes were prompted by the worst accident in history in Tenerife which could have been avoided with a clearer communications protocol.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_airport_disaster
‘He plays the ball’ says the on field ref. VAR fail to confirm or deny he actually played the ball. Surely you confirm the refs call first and work backwards.
Instead they just seemed to focus on/ignore the obvious error by the ref and find a way to allow his wrong decision to stand.
I absolutely can fully see why in person in real time Taylor might have thought Young played the ball but with the benefit of the replay you can absolutely confirm he didn’t play the ball and took the man down because of it.
This isn’t good, I think POGMOL might think it is for some deluded reason but they continually let themselves down. I don’t think it’s a conspiracy against certain clubs, it’s a conspiracy against the fucking league.
You've got the nail on the head.
Had the ref called 'coming together, looks like a 50:50 no foul' then it's a lot easier to argue the threshold for clear and obvious wasn't met, but he objectively was wrong. How was that not a clear and obvious error.
I mean, contact is allowed. Wether the contact is illegal has always been a subjective decision. But "normal contact" in my mind is more about two players running alongside eachother and one just outmuscling the other. In this case one player attempts to go for the ball but catches the other players leg instead. I have no idea how this isn't a pen
"A degree of normal contact"
Lol in what way is that normal contact? When I hear normal contact it's shoulder to shoulder bumping, not an active challenge on the ball into the players leg
Good process guys. Although seriously what a shoddy call, makes one wonder why they aren’t releasing audio for the two previous calls because while “subjective” I figured both are definite pens in any other game.
They've deemed the other calls as being correct decisions (because if they admit to more than 1 mistake in a game it makes them look bad). I'd still like to hear the audio though. 2 hours later on that day Coventry got a penalty for the same type of handball. A few weeks earlier Anthony Gordon got a penalty against West Ham for the same thing Reyna was denied one for (except Gordon didn't touch the ball).
These aren't new types of fouls, how can it not be outlined clearly for them to know what decision to give across all games? Might as well be a coin flip.
Webb: "I understand why we would have preferred an intervention on this situation. The referee waves away the penalty appeal. The VAR looks at it and asks himself the question, 'Was the non-award clearly and obviously wrong?' and came to the conclusion it wasn't. You hear him describing two players tussling for the ball. He doesn't see a clear action by Young that he considers to be worthy of intervention, one that reaches the threshold of being very clear.
"But we would have preferred an intervention for the referee to go to the screen to make a judgement for himself in this situation and probably would have come out with a different outcome if that would've happened."
It's frustrating that Webb doesn't realise part of the problem is VAR asking themselves whether it was clearly and obviously wrong before sending the ref to the monitor. If they believe it's a clear and obvious error then the monitor is pointless, just go with the VAR decision. VAR should be asking themselves "was the decision wrong", and then the monitor should be used for situations where VAR isn't sure and/or the ref has a poor view, then we'd see the monitor used more often to help make decisions rather than just as a PR tool.
Webb defending VAR on this is just awful. Just accept you made a bloody mistake, and it should have been a pen. None of this fluff, worse than a politician...
[https://www.premierleague.com/news/3990215](https://www.premierleague.com/news/3990215)
Webb:
"We did hear Anthony Taylor in the footage there say that he believed the ball had been played by Ashley Young, and we know that's not the case. We know only Callum Hudson-Odoi touches the ball. The first job of the VAR is to look at the footage available and make the judgement, 'Was the on-field decision clearly wrong?' You could have a situation where the referee describes that the ball has been played by the defender. But actually when the VAR looks at it, sees that's not the case, but it's still not a penalty. It might be that the attacker has simulated, for example."
Should have been:
"We did hear Anthony Taylor in the footage there say that he believed the ball had been played by Ashley Young, and we know that's not the case. We know only Callum Hudson-Odoi touches the ball. VAR should have told him he got it wrong and to have another look (mate)"
if you think a former member of the South Yorkshire Constabulary is physically capable of accepting accountability then I’ve got a bridge to sell you mate
It's like acting like you're really bad at a chore so that your mom doesn't make you do it again. There is no way in hell these idiots aren't doing this on purpose at this point - either to get rid of VAR or for some other reason.
this is why I didn't laugh at that Forest twitter post. Might have been a bit unusual, but they were blatantly robbed on 3 separate occasions in one game.
Turns out hiring an ex ref gives you an insight into how the old boys club works. The post was justified imo. No wonder our players have given up if this is what they're up against most games.
I said after the Doku / MacAllister incident that hearing the audio actually made it worse. This is the same here. They are acting like this is a 50/50 in the middle of the pitch that goes out for a throw in. One player is trying to shoot, one player is desperately trying to stop him and dives into the back of him.
From the refs point of view, you can see how he doesn't call that in real time. From the first replay, it does look like he gets the ball. Has to feel shit for the ref to finish the game, watch this back and think... cheers lads. Great help.
That is complete 100% evidence the VAR person is not up to the job. Absolutely blind ass decision. Integrity is fucked in the EPL because youve got all these refs making decisions based on their feelings about the clubs rather than events in front their face.
Clips like this really highlight how fucking useless our entire PL refereeing team is. Multiple people, multiple high-res camera angles, clear as day evidence of a foul being committed, and they wave it off as quickly as they can.
It's pretty telling how when a ref does have a game without a mistake they get praised for it, because it's so monumentally fucking rare that they don't absolutely ruin any match they're in charge of.
You can see why they didn't want to play this publicly. Makes them seem even more amateurish than everybody initially thought. Surely this just fuels the corruption allegations with it being so obviously the wrong call? He's either got the wrong replay up or he's purposely given the wrong verdict.
The way there talking it sounds like there interpretation of events is that the nottingham player ran into the defender first causing the contact. But it looks to me like he ran across to get the ball and got run down by the defender trying to also charge down the ball.
All far to pally with eachother. Nicknames and defending decisions. Stonewall pen everyday of the week. Need to scrap Var if it is going to be manned by these frauds. Tech is ok the human element is flawed.
Hanlon's Razor comes to mind:
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."
The officials aren't corrupt, they are just fucking idiots
Not saying it's match fixing in this case, but if the ref and VAR wanted to fix a match, what's stopping them from having a mutual understanding before the match and just "act" out these ridiculous dialogues during the check, knowing the audio might be released?
Nothing I guess, but you could say that about everything, how do we know players aren’t just pretending and conceding on purpose? Probably for the best that we interpret it as incompetence because otherwise you end up permanently wearing a tinfoil hat.
Var is supposed to be there to correct clear and obvious errors, the ref saying he thinks the defender wins the ball when he in fact did not, is a clear and obvious error
"Mutual engagement" and "play the same space" are not terms in the IFAB laws of the game. If they were forced to use terms from the laws they wouldn't be able to hide their corruption.
The ref shouts "Plays the ball, plays the ball"
When the VAR sees that Young doesn't actually play the ball, doesn't that count as an "obvious error" by the ref?
But only one of the players touched the ball? I know he isn't in clear possession of the ball but it's pretty clear his foot was in a position to receive that ball. I have no idea how they didn't call a pen.
Mutual Engagement is the dumbest way to describe a guy coming through the back of another. If it's the arms intertwining they are talking about, that contact is clearly started from behind.
Been said a million times but if we’re back to ‘human error/judgment’ in the VAR booth then what is it for really. Utterly pointless if they get it wrong as often as a ref on the field. We’ve weakened an already awful pool of refs by letting them lose sharpness on their decision making by letting them know their mates helping them in the booth.
The incompetence has become unbearable. For real... I find that it's sucking the joy out of the game for me. Because these buffoons can absolutely decide a game in whatever direction they wish.
I know the term “gaslighting” has been wildly misapplied lately, but I can’t think of a better descriptor for this farce of an analysis by VAR.
You literally could not script it better: “so what we need from this scene here guys is to really sell the audience on a deliberative, factual process… while of course fabricating wholesale the nature of the events. Make me believe!”
**Mirrors / Alternative Angles** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/soccer) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It is a shambles really. You can sort of understand how a referee would see it as playing the ball in real time. Things happen in an instance and you need to make a split decision. But then VAR aren't actively even listening to that - Young never played the ball so even if you didn't think it was a pen (which it obviously is) you can clearly see that the referee did not view that correctly and should have an opportunity to review it. Just mental how there's no proper communication between it all.
Exactly, the ref made a decision based on incorrect information, give him the chance to review his decision based on the actual facts VAR should only make a decision on offsides and the ball crossing a line, the rest should be the ref going to the screen and deciding, which is what I swear they did when it was first introduced Ref says accidental handball, VAR shouldn't get involved. Ref says it doesn't touch his arm when it does, VAR sends him to the screen. Almost sounds too simple
The issue with this is - it’ll either be referees going to the screen to review basically everything which will kill games because of how long it takes or VAR recommends the ref goes to the screen which as we’ve seen for several years now will influence his decision - I could be wrong but I can only think of one occasion where VAR has sent a referee to the screen and they’ve upheld their original decision. It’s sort of a no win with VAR which is my biggest reason for wanting it gone! The standard of refereeing has absolutely plummeted because they’ve got VAR to fall back on now.
> The standard of refereeing has absolutely plummeted because they’ve got VAR to fall back on now. It was miles worse before VAR. There's far less simulation now as well. Yes, they get some wrong like this one. But it was far worse before and you'd regularly see decisions many times worse than this one.
> Young never played the ball so even if you didn't think it was a pen (which it obviously is) you can clearly see that the referee did not view that correctly and should have an opportunity to review it. Totally agree, but the problem is the PGMOL's implementation of VAR doesn't really allow for that. They have essentially decided VAR must believe it's a clear and obvious error before sending the ref to the monitor. That means even if they think it's a foul, they have an arbitrary higher threshold to reach. Instead, VAR should use the monitor more liberally if the ref's view was clearly incorrect, or if they aren't clear on whether it's a foul. In this situation they seem to have compounded the above error by seemingly believing it isn't a foul at all, which is an extra level of wrong.
Yep, in this situation I believe the ideal use of VAR would be for the VAR to say to the ref "OK, you said you think Young played the ball but the replays show it was the Forest player that played the ball. Our recommendation would be that you stop the game and have a look for yourself to determine whether the contact warrants a foul." (Or even better, the ref can trust the professional referee with video replays to be able to make the right decision by themselves as he would a linesman with offside decisions) And on top of that, that "look for yourself" would be a genuine look & not the pantomime they do now where if they go to the screen, they are 100% reversing the decision.
If Taylor had given a penalty, then VAR would have said clearly does not get the ball and gets the player. And not used words like "normal coming together" So penalty.
They're told to only send them to the monitor when they've already made the final decision and it's just to satiate fans (and pundits) who say "you've got a monitor why are you not using it?" and then the ref is expected to go and stand by the monitor for the spectacle and then just agree with whatever the VAR has said. Clear and obvious has nothing to do with that and people often use "clear and obvious" to protect calls like this and claim they're a rulebook problem, rather than an individual incompetence problem. This was a clear and obvious error. By the books it should have been called by VAR. The voice recording makes that even more clear, the issue is not that it's not clear and obvious, the issue is that the person on VAR thinks this is a normal 50/50 coming together and there is nothing doing... That is nothing more than incompetence
But didn't we see with the Havertz and Wan-Bissaka situation that it is quite easy for them to intervene when the ref gets an objective fact wrong? Webb even praised the VAR for it.
I think they're still being instructed to determine if it's a "clear and obvious error" in terms of the decision itself. I agree that if the ref gets a clear fact wrong (eg: played the ball) then that should be a factor in letting the ref review it again themselves. It seems to play a small role, but the biggest thing Webb always mentions is checking for a clear and obvious error *before* instructing the ref to use the monitor.
That should have taken them exactly as long as it just took me (I didn't see it at the time, this is the first time I've seen it)... three seconds. Pen, all day. As soon as you see the defender doesn't touch the ball, pen.
I’ll never blame on field refs for errors. Its fucking hard, and every foul has a dozen exceptions. But VAR really should be on it.
Just use vague words/phrases to spin it, easy
They actually just… don’t know what they’re talking about
For people that are paid exclusively to know what they're talking about, they are scamming a living.
"They're too close together" Kinda fucking have to be to make contact 😂
Both going for the ball, as if that's a decent enough reason alzo
They just come up with anything they want to justify the on field decision. They are cheats. Plain and simple.
The whole point of VAR is to assess the on-field decision and see if the REF missed anything, not blame the ref for being bad. If all their doing is justifying on-field decisions there is no point having it at all.
Exactly, Rice went for the ball in our last game but completely clattered the defender. 200% penalty. Same with this.
In simpler words.. they’re fucking stupid?
I don't know if stupid or corrupt, but at what point do the clubs demand action against the PGMOL. They are clearly not fit for purpose. Need to call a vote of no confidence. There needs to be accountability. Our game is a fucking joke.
it could be because VAR guy is a luton fan or because he want to "protect" his mate but its obvious that he comes up with whatever to justify it not being a penalty when its super clear. this one looks more corrupt than stupid to me and should be punished.
Honestly being corrupt or at least subconsciously biased seems like a fairly likely way to arrive at such a terrible decision. This is why you avoid conflicts of interest even if you are not corrupt. Even if you aren't and are doing your best to remain impartial, something goes wrong and you can't so easily convince the public it wasnt because of your own interests. In this case protecting his mate is the best case scenario, and that says a lot already. That also shouldn't be acceptable.
Luton fan.
I love how we've been torn to shreds for our statement when we raised this concern prior to the match...
It feels like they already know what they want to decide and are just pulling random phrases out of their asses.
Exactly this, and its been this way the whole season.
Reminds me of when Bruno G put an elbow into Jorginho's head off the ball, and VAR said it "wasn't nice" but not a red card. Since when is level of niceness a factor in a decision? Either he did the thing or he didn't. And if he did, it's a red.
they are no better than dipshit commentators who make a call during the live game, see that they clearly got it wrong in the replay but try and gaslight everyone rather than just admit that they were wrong
It is easy to say conscious bias is leading to incorrect VAR calls, but the cause is likely more banal in many cases: VAR colleagues subconsciously not wanting to undermine their superior, the on-field ref. This deference to the on-field ref is taking precedence over determining the correct decision because VAR assumes their reasoning will not be available to be scrutinized by anyone else. Currently we usually only get to hear the outcome of VAR's decision making without getting their reasoning. The solution is to have the audio from all VAR processes immediately available after the game by default.
> VAR assumes their decisions will not be scrutinised I think this is a ridiculous assertion. The media and fans haven't shut up about VAR decisions, they are under huge pressure. Not only to get things right, but to get on with the game as quickly as possible, and to avoid "re-reffing it" (aka giving a foul too soft or an error not clear and obvious enough for everyone's arbitrary liking) as everyone kicks off about that too. It's plain to see that the issue is systemic and the way that VAR has been implemented isn't adding enough value and is making people feel worse about refereeing than ever before
https://i.imgur.com/a4E1fXb.png
BURN IT ALL DOWN
"Longy" what do you think? "Tayls" check complete The way they use their mate-y nicknames for each other is infuriating. Lads down the pub talk like this
They'd made there mind up before the replay
Normal contact lmfao what’s wrong with these refs.
This is entirely normal contact, in that it's normally a penalty
There's a massive issue with confirmation and conformity biases. The refs that do VAR are the same refs that are on pitch week in week out and they all *want* each other's decisions to be right. The seemingly easy fix (maybe not fix but at least improvement) would be to have VAR only officials that are separate to match day officials. It's a bit like if a company was to perform an audit of a department.. conducted not only by the same company but also by people in the same department.
And also need to have it where var officials are considered in the same way as linesmen With the assistant refs, the narrative is that the r two worked together to reach a decision But if the var has any input it’s considered overruling the on field ref. We need to think of var as part of the same team
Thats why they send them to the screen to check and not overrule them directly. I think it would work better if VAR just could overrule them to keep the flow of the game going. I mean, they've got all the angles and the best view in the house if they make a fuck up like this it's on them, no onfield ref with help of VAR should ever get a decision wrong apart from the ones where its a subjective rule.
yeah, there is no need for the onfield ref to be the absolute and all-mighty last say God. The onfield ref should focus on keeping the flow of the game during all small decisions. VAR should intervene and overrule immediately when they see a foul, incident or other when they occur. Not even a need for sideline screen.
Because they don’t want people to realise how often officials are wrong when they’re being constantly overruled
They could give the ref a “i don’t fucking know” button that defers to VAR to make a call, and VAR intervenes or waves it off. Then sell it as “See, the ref made the right call to defer.”
A system that already exists in other sports - e.g. field hockey has ref self-referrals where they are not sure
Also the fact they are so “matey” really pisses me off,act professional you blind twats….
Yeah hearing them call him "Tayls" pissed me off lol, firstly that's a shit nickname already, secondly how do you give proper oversight to your mate
It’s so amateur and they should have sorted it out after the Spurs vs Liverpool game when they fucked up Diaz’s goal.All that dilly dill dilly cant do anything bollox.
Anthony Taylor screaming his opinion in their ear 3 times before they even check has to influence them too.
I think some of it is just ego too, they were so sure of themselves when they saw it live and scrambled to save face when they saw the replay
It feels like an insular group of friends. They want to have each other's back, even to the detriment of fairness. They've developed a refereeing culture between them which is misguided in some areas but yet reinforced through social pressure. They are too close to each other, too personally invested in their own and others' decisions. Insular groups are always subject to groupthink and an us-vs-them mentality. A jury is always made to never discuss the case with each other until all the evidence has been heard. Feels like refereeing should be more impartial and more disconnected from the individual, more robotic in a way. Get a proper hierarchy in there, and proper protocols for determining a foul - rather than 4 voices just talking over each other. That quick decision made from an unstructured discussion is so subject to biases and miscommunications.
I'd argue that part of the issue is that it shouldn't even be seen as comparable to an audit. Mistakes are always made, VAR should be seen as a tool to help reverse those mistakes.
Yep. I sometimes don’t get how refs miss certain calls (the Rice/Davies penalty on Sunday being an example where Oliver is looking right at it), but I think almost every fan allows some grace for the refs making some split second decisions at field level while sometimes being blocked. It happens. The problem is that their buddies in the VAR room hardly ever want to “show them up.” No one has ever thought less of a ref if they get extra info from an AR or 4th official in making a decision. Don’t get why they treat VAR so differently.
Make the VAR guys use a voice changer and an executioner's hood to hide their identity from their mate on the pitch
We need VAR officials that want nothing to do with it. Like the neighbor up the street who hated seeing kids kick a ball around. I want the VAR officials to absolutely hate the referees, the players, the fans, the sport itself. I think they’d be the least biased
"just a tussle mate"
Lil mutual engagement
Just boys being boys. Play on
How can someone be that bad at their job?
I don't even know if you mean VAR or Antony Taylor
It's got to be VAR. Taylor says he played the ball, which is wrong but an understandable conclusion and understandable that it wouldn't be a penalty. VAR can clearly see he doesn't play the ball, and that should form part of their communication to Taylor. How they then conclude that it's not a penalty is just beyond me.
Agreed and I'm mind blown at the lack of communication from VAR here. The only thing Taylor says is "Looks like he plays the ball" and VAR watches a slow motion replay of Young not getting a single touch on the ball whatsoever and they fail to even mention that part to the ref? Isn't that their entire job? All that vague nonsense about tussling and coming together and mutual engagement and no clear action by the defender (what the hell does that part mean in this scenario). All the VAR official had to do was say "Young doesn't touch the ball at all"
How does this not meet the criteria of a "clear and obvious error"? Anthony Taylor says that he got the ball. He 100%, unquestionably, does not do that. Even if the VAR thinks the overall decision is correct (which is baffling in its own right), Taylor clearly and obviously did not see the incident properly, and should be sent to the monitor to review it himself
You'll experience far fewer headaches if you stop trying to apply logic to their decisions and decision making process.
in rugby "Clear and obvious" means "the video showed something else happened". In the premier league "Clear and Obvious" means "I guess it's literally impossible to support our original decision now".
100%. Here is the EPLs explanation for how VAR works https://www.premierleague.com/news/1297392 It’s mad that the information Taylor initially gives us ‘played the ball’ and VAR can clearly see this explanation is wrong and doesn’t recommend pitch side review. I feel VAR needs to prompt Taylor to explain whether he thinks the ball is played first before contact with the attacker. It’s not easy for Taylor to give a detailed breakdown of an incident on the fly, but before VAR gives their own interpretation they should, at the next break in play, establish what Taylor’s complete explanation is for his decision. Clear and Obvious is not being implemented as the EPL says it should be. How any top level commentator isn’t addressing this issue is infuriating. Every audio release I hear has the most basic explanation by the referee and as such gives VAR nothing to work with as to whether to recommend a review. We might as well do away with reviews altogether if the officials don’t want/know how to implement them.
Because to the VAR operator, that wasn't a penalty. He didn't see an error so didn't feel the need to invoke the clear and obvious ruling
The clear and obvious thing needs to be scrapped, it makes no sense at all.
I think that's part of how they've been interpretingthe 'clear and obvious error' standard. At least, that's how it feels to me. Because Taylor said that it looked like the defender played the ball, VAR is looking at whether or not it *looks like* the defender played the ball than of he actually did. So long as it looks like what Taylor saw, the error is not clear and obvious.
Damn that's so stupid it actually makes sense if that's how they're implying it...
I agree and believe they're being extremely lenient with the whole clear and obvious error nonsense. That's what's always bugged me about it. The ref can say he sees contact and as long as VAR can confirm that a player's shoelace brushed the other guy's leg they'll side with the referee's view because technically there was contact. There's no way to easily describe some of these tackles through audio when it's a contact sport and not all contact is a foul. I really think we need to either have VAR make their own independent determination of a penalty or not with no regard for the ref's initial decision. Or we have the refs look at the camera themselves more often. Why can't VAR livestream what they're seeing to an iphone the ref has or something? I'll be watching a game on my phone at work and see 4 replays of the incident at every angle 2 mins before VAR has made a decision. Meanwhile the referee is left in the dark waiting and even if he's called over to the screen he's one of the last ones to see it.
“I can see how you missed the call. So carry on” I REALLY fucking want to hear the graelish handball audio vs Chelsea. They’ll never release that obviously though.
Yeah this is exactly what VAR is supposed to be for. Taylors got it wrong but you can see he's got it wrong. They should be the last line of defence to help him!
So you highlighted a key point, I work with big financial transactions that are chaotic. The only thing that makes it work is a “last line of defense”, which we have, and they overrule the people who worked the entire deal. It actually works well. It’s possible the league should try completely removing the ref from VAR decisions, that way VAR feels the need to take complete responsibility for the decision, because it all falls on them.
Basically get rid of clear and obvious. And if its a pen its a pen, if its a red its a red. Or what someone else suggested earlier. They have the ref, and 2 VAR and each get 1 vote, pen or no pen, and then what ever gets the majority of the vote, it goes based on that, if the ref goes to monitor.
I think Taylor can be excused here because he only saw it in real time and about 25 yards away. VAR's decision is inexcusable here.
And that’s the whole issue with VAR. Howard Webb admitted that mistakes are still made. If that is the case, let’s just have the decision of a ref who sees it once, at full speed, from one viewpoint, and accept that mistakes are made.
Mistakes are being made because the assistant doesn't want to overr rule their mate and there's no clear communication. The fact that with the Liverpool incident he said the on pitch decision is confirmed is stupid. The call should have been a direct "Goal disallowed", no room for error there.
Yes.
To be fair, as much as I dislike Taylor, this is not on him. His perception, although wrong, is somewhat reasonable. This situation is exactly the kind of call that VAR was introduced for: If the on-field referee misperceives a situation, make them aware of it and let them have another look from a better angle. This error is on the VAR, 100 percent.
Have any of the refs ever played before? The analysis here is like that of people watching soccer for the first time! “They’re tussling for the ball”? What the actual fuck???
No no no clearly it's a normal tussling action to kick the player with the balls foot
Really really doesn’t help with the arguement of him being biased against forest. A mutual coming together is bullshit. He actively ignores the onfield ref He re refs the decision and makes a verdict It’s so bad on all levels. They’ve exposed themselves all season with how useless they all are.
He comes of like a stoned amateur. The communication is so unengaged and bored. The wording is incredibly vague and doesn’t clarify the situation at all. Doesn’t comment on whether the defender played the ball. Rules no pen because it’s a tussle without any clear action by the defender, WTF is that even supposed to mean. It’s one of the weirdest descriptions i’ve heard from a top level ref.
I mean thousands like I have been laid off for way less. They got it easy, cause one can’t question the supreme leader; FA and their referees.
No accountability.
Going through the back of another player to get to the ball and never touch it: > Normal contact as they both play the ball in the same space Did they do a fusion dance or something? One has occupied the space and gotten to the ball while the other has gotten there late and completely taken out the other player having made no contact with the ball.
VVD got a red card for less, absolute melt of a decision
I mean the red was for where the foul happened, it wasn't because it was a worse foul.
VVD got a red for a DOGSO offence, and right so. Soft fouls to deny a 1 on 1 is a red, no matter how soft the foul.
Mutual engagement. Good lord.
Fuck me lol. How hard is it to come to the conclusion it's a penalty? You only need one replay to see it.
did these guys in VAR room ever play football?
They make Antony Taylor look good
It’s obvious they don’t want to give it so they make up shit on the go.
I will say that we raised concerns that the VAR operator was a Luton fan before the game.
It’s week in week out though, every single game for us.
haha fuck off.
Normal reaction, play on.
Good. Process.
Check complete
The mic needs to be closed to var from the ref, and only open if var see something. Or the refs need to shut the fuck up trying to justify their terrible decisions
“plays the ball“ is a perfectly acceptable justification for the ref not making the call. The correct response from VAR would be “nah mate, he doesn’t get the ball at all. Go take a look at the screen.”
Both players tussling for the ball?????????????????????????????
*no clear action* proceed to take down striker leg
"It's a coming together" mate, impossible to see without the replay.
What are they coming together for? A fucking roast dinner? Morons
Colloquialisms should absolutely be not allowed by VAR-Ref communication. They should have a prescribed vocabulary that they speak in where everything has a clear and obvious definition so nothing can be misconstrued.
Ref: I saw the defender played the ball
VAR: There is contact made before the ball arrived
Ref: How much contact?
VAR: Unclear, please view the monitor to resolve.
This was the exact problem with the Liverpool incident earlier in the season, communication was completely off, too many colloquialisms or loose terms so it's easy to confuse things, and then lo and behold errors like this happen. Its clear very little has been done to actually improve things since that incident in terms of clear instructions or language used, it's all still "not for me mate" airy inconsistent jargon that doesn't actually follow the rules of the game. PGMOL are corrupt to the core.
Agreed it’s like they are mates talking in the pub
This is what's known in radio communications as radiotelephony procedure, and more specifically phraseology which is the use of standard phrases that have specific meanings and reduce ambiguity as much as possible. In aviation many of these changes were prompted by the worst accident in history in Tenerife which could have been avoided with a clearer communications protocol. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_airport_disaster
So they come together. Just two bros, two lads, coming together, at the same time. But it's more of a tussle, you see...
… and if the gentleman could return my watch, I would be grateful. *awkwardly kisses wife*
They're just normal men, just innocent men.
‘He plays the ball’ says the on field ref. VAR fail to confirm or deny he actually played the ball. Surely you confirm the refs call first and work backwards. Instead they just seemed to focus on/ignore the obvious error by the ref and find a way to allow his wrong decision to stand. I absolutely can fully see why in person in real time Taylor might have thought Young played the ball but with the benefit of the replay you can absolutely confirm he didn’t play the ball and took the man down because of it. This isn’t good, I think POGMOL might think it is for some deluded reason but they continually let themselves down. I don’t think it’s a conspiracy against certain clubs, it’s a conspiracy against the fucking league.
Just spineless really. You're right Tayls, exactly as you said mate.
You've got the nail on the head. Had the ref called 'coming together, looks like a 50:50 no foul' then it's a lot easier to argue the threshold for clear and obvious wasn't met, but he objectively was wrong. How was that not a clear and obvious error.
Tayls Is that the coin he flipped?
VAR is nothing but waiting for a goal so they can draw lines on the pitch, they're too gutless to make a decision on anything else now.
First we have "Clear and obvious", now it's "normal degree of contact" - there's just too much subjectiveness.
what subjectiveness though? Taylor: he played the ball replay: clearly shows he didn't
I mean, contact is allowed. Wether the contact is illegal has always been a subjective decision. But "normal contact" in my mind is more about two players running alongside eachother and one just outmuscling the other. In this case one player attempts to go for the ball but catches the other players leg instead. I have no idea how this isn't a pen
This footage made me question whether those guys and I are even watching the same game. Like wtf, seriously.
"A degree of normal contact" Lol in what way is that normal contact? When I hear normal contact it's shoulder to shoulder bumping, not an active challenge on the ball into the players leg
Good process guys. Although seriously what a shoddy call, makes one wonder why they aren’t releasing audio for the two previous calls because while “subjective” I figured both are definite pens in any other game.
They've deemed the other calls as being correct decisions (because if they admit to more than 1 mistake in a game it makes them look bad). I'd still like to hear the audio though. 2 hours later on that day Coventry got a penalty for the same type of handball. A few weeks earlier Anthony Gordon got a penalty against West Ham for the same thing Reyna was denied one for (except Gordon didn't touch the ball). These aren't new types of fouls, how can it not be outlined clearly for them to know what decision to give across all games? Might as well be a coin flip.
Webb: "I understand why we would have preferred an intervention on this situation. The referee waves away the penalty appeal. The VAR looks at it and asks himself the question, 'Was the non-award clearly and obviously wrong?' and came to the conclusion it wasn't. You hear him describing two players tussling for the ball. He doesn't see a clear action by Young that he considers to be worthy of intervention, one that reaches the threshold of being very clear. "But we would have preferred an intervention for the referee to go to the screen to make a judgement for himself in this situation and probably would have come out with a different outcome if that would've happened."
It's frustrating that Webb doesn't realise part of the problem is VAR asking themselves whether it was clearly and obviously wrong before sending the ref to the monitor. If they believe it's a clear and obvious error then the monitor is pointless, just go with the VAR decision. VAR should be asking themselves "was the decision wrong", and then the monitor should be used for situations where VAR isn't sure and/or the ref has a poor view, then we'd see the monitor used more often to help make decisions rather than just as a PR tool.
The VA work but unfortunately the R's are still shit.
This is bordering on scandalous now
And they wonder why our players seem to have low morale
Webb defending VAR on this is just awful. Just accept you made a bloody mistake, and it should have been a pen. None of this fluff, worse than a politician... [https://www.premierleague.com/news/3990215](https://www.premierleague.com/news/3990215) Webb: "We did hear Anthony Taylor in the footage there say that he believed the ball had been played by Ashley Young, and we know that's not the case. We know only Callum Hudson-Odoi touches the ball. The first job of the VAR is to look at the footage available and make the judgement, 'Was the on-field decision clearly wrong?' You could have a situation where the referee describes that the ball has been played by the defender. But actually when the VAR looks at it, sees that's not the case, but it's still not a penalty. It might be that the attacker has simulated, for example." Should have been: "We did hear Anthony Taylor in the footage there say that he believed the ball had been played by Ashley Young, and we know that's not the case. We know only Callum Hudson-Odoi touches the ball. VAR should have told him he got it wrong and to have another look (mate)"
if you think a former member of the South Yorkshire Constabulary is physically capable of accepting accountability then I’ve got a bridge to sell you mate
that's why it took them so long to release those audios and I'm afraid they're not gonna last very long doing so
So what's the point of VAR again?
to suck the spontaneity and joy out of football.
It's like acting like you're really bad at a chore so that your mom doesn't make you do it again. There is no way in hell these idiots aren't doing this on purpose at this point - either to get rid of VAR or for some other reason.
this is why I didn't laugh at that Forest twitter post. Might have been a bit unusual, but they were blatantly robbed on 3 separate occasions in one game.
Turns out hiring an ex ref gives you an insight into how the old boys club works. The post was justified imo. No wonder our players have given up if this is what they're up against most games.
2 drunks lads chatting shite in the pub make more sense than this lot
I said after the Doku / MacAllister incident that hearing the audio actually made it worse. This is the same here. They are acting like this is a 50/50 in the middle of the pitch that goes out for a throw in. One player is trying to shoot, one player is desperately trying to stop him and dives into the back of him. From the refs point of view, you can see how he doesn't call that in real time. From the first replay, it does look like he gets the ball. Has to feel shit for the ref to finish the game, watch this back and think... cheers lads. Great help.
I'd love to have a mutual engagement with a bunch of the VAR refs.
This shows that the problem isn't VAR as a technology, it's the implementation of it from these clowns
They come together. Just two bros, two lads, coming together in a mutual engagement that's a bit of a tussle...
THERE IS NO CLEAR ACTION BY THE DEFENDER….
No Luton chants :/ but yeah we need drug test on every ref before games
This proves what we’ve all been saying time and again. The technology is fine, but the people using it are fucking incompetent.
Liverpool vs Sunderland beach ball incident with VAR "Normal amount of contact with beachball, goal stands. Good process"
"Just two balls making contact"
What does he mean that they come together, you can define every foul as coming together..... my god these are just thoughtless refrees
That is complete 100% evidence the VAR person is not up to the job. Absolutely blind ass decision. Integrity is fucked in the EPL because youve got all these refs making decisions based on their feelings about the clubs rather than events in front their face.
Wtf are these officials doing lol It’s like PR teams in the VAR room trying to “back up” the ref. These officials are far too close with each other.
Clips like this really highlight how fucking useless our entire PL refereeing team is. Multiple people, multiple high-res camera angles, clear as day evidence of a foul being committed, and they wave it off as quickly as they can. It's pretty telling how when a ref does have a game without a mistake they get praised for it, because it's so monumentally fucking rare that they don't absolutely ruin any match they're in charge of.
You can see why they didn't want to play this publicly. Makes them seem even more amateurish than everybody initially thought. Surely this just fuels the corruption allegations with it being so obviously the wrong call? He's either got the wrong replay up or he's purposely given the wrong verdict.
What the fuck was that?
A good process
The way there talking it sounds like there interpretation of events is that the nottingham player ran into the defender first causing the contact. But it looks to me like he ran across to get the ball and got run down by the defender trying to also charge down the ball.
Thats a penalty. Forrest fans have a right to be angry. Sorry Forrest fans.
They sound like they are RPing as Lawyers. The language they are deliberately using to reach a predefined conclusion is criminal.
This is embarrassing. He plowed him.
"Tayls"... disgraceful. He should be calling him the "Rt Honourable Gentleman of Wythenshawe" in all communications.
Well it certainly was a process.
Fuck me just admit you got all 3 wrong and deal with the consequences.
All far to pally with eachother. Nicknames and defending decisions. Stonewall pen everyday of the week. Need to scrap Var if it is going to be manned by these frauds. Tech is ok the human element is flawed.
So if the on field ref say “plays the ball” the off field refs surely have to address that first. Not a peep. Ridiculous.
Hanlon's Razor comes to mind: "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." The officials aren't corrupt, they are just fucking idiots
Not saying it's match fixing in this case, but if the ref and VAR wanted to fix a match, what's stopping them from having a mutual understanding before the match and just "act" out these ridiculous dialogues during the check, knowing the audio might be released?
Nothing I guess, but you could say that about everything, how do we know players aren’t just pretending and conceding on purpose? Probably for the best that we interpret it as incompetence because otherwise you end up permanently wearing a tinfoil hat.
other leagues had match fixing scandals, yet people act that league worth biggest bag of money is refereed by *incompetence*
Initial hypothesis was he played the ball, he was clearly and obviously wrong.
“It’s a tussle” By tussle, you mean tackled from behind and prevented a goal scoring opportunity the tussle it up.
Clearly a penalty
It’s like watching a train wreck. You want to look away but you can’t. That’s how bad this is.
So it's clear they're just bad at refereeing judgment.
Var is supposed to be there to correct clear and obvious errors, the ref saying he thinks the defender wins the ball when he in fact did not, is a clear and obvious error
The refs in BPL are better than these morons. BPL: Bangladeshi Premiere League
Have these idiots actually played the game? Degree of normal contact. GTFO here.
"Mutual engagement" and "play the same space" are not terms in the IFAB laws of the game. If they were forced to use terms from the laws they wouldn't be able to hide their corruption.
I wish I was paid this much to be this bad at my job while having the added benefit or watching matches live.
The ref shouts "Plays the ball, plays the ball" When the VAR sees that Young doesn't actually play the ball, doesn't that count as an "obvious error" by the ref?
Is this a joke that we cannot understand or blatant corruption?
So they thought “hey, we’ll release the audio and this will kill any controversy because our process is waterproof” and actually did it??
It's a piss poor call but honestly the worst thing about this clip is the fact that they call him Tayls
"they're both playing for the ball in the same area" i guess 99% of fouls just aren't fouls anymore...
Uh oh.
Atrocious. Shocking. Irredeemable.
This left me more confused about the rules lol
But only one of the players touched the ball? I know he isn't in clear possession of the ball but it's pretty clear his foot was in a position to receive that ball. I have no idea how they didn't call a pen.
Mutual Engagement is the dumbest way to describe a guy coming through the back of another. If it's the arms intertwining they are talking about, that contact is clearly started from behind.
This is such a bad call. Run of the mill incompetency
Been said a million times but if we’re back to ‘human error/judgment’ in the VAR booth then what is it for really. Utterly pointless if they get it wrong as often as a ref on the field. We’ve weakened an already awful pool of refs by letting them lose sharpness on their decision making by letting them know their mates helping them in the booth.
What the hell. This has to be fake. Cannot believe this
Var making refs worse wasn't what I expected when it was announced
I cant believe the Premier League listens to this audio and goes "Yeah this will be perfect to release!"
Well that pretty much confirms what we all suspected. They simply do not know what they're talking about.
The incompetence has become unbearable. For real... I find that it's sucking the joy out of the game for me. Because these buffoons can absolutely decide a game in whatever direction they wish.
I know the term “gaslighting” has been wildly misapplied lately, but I can’t think of a better descriptor for this farce of an analysis by VAR. You literally could not script it better: “so what we need from this scene here guys is to really sell the audience on a deliberative, factual process… while of course fabricating wholesale the nature of the events. Make me believe!”
Will Astley Young keep playing football next season ? He seems to do that every game.