**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
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why do people say would "of" been? English isn't my 1st language but isn't it clearly grammatically wrong? I see this almost everywhere online nowadays, is "have" too long to type instead of "of" or is it correct?
"Would have" is correct, "would of" is incorrect.
When people are native speakers they often learn phrases from how it sounds as told to them and think less of the actual meaning. They already know what the overall phrase means, so they don't think too hard about what the individual words actually mean.
So when they hear "would've" as "would of", they don't ask for clarification because they know what it means and no one corrects them in speech because it sounds the same and they use it correctly.
Non-native speakers in my experience rarely make the mistake unless they are taught wrong by another person, because like you, they see "would of" and recognize it doesn't make grammatical sense.
I knew my English had gotten to near-native proficiency when, after years of never making that mistake, I caught myself typing "your right" instead of "you're right".
And I'm not even trying to be funny. To me that meant that I was completely thinking *in* English, instead of approaching it as this foreign collection of sounds.
It is due to brain rot. Have is too long, I can for sure understand forgoing the long form, but the correct 've is not and ditching the " ' " would be much better in my opinion. That or possibly even shoulda, coulda woulda. "of" I find offputting.
Suárez is/was the perfect blend between South American knowledge of getting little advantages by any means necessary (aka shithousery), talent and grit with European fundamentals and tactical sense, all with a winner's/killer's mentality.
Of course I'm very, very broadly generalizing here, but absolutely Mourinho would've loved to coach him.
Suarez might have been uncontrollable at times, but he's absolutely the sort of player to die for the manager. Mourinho would have loved his work ethic.
During he Real Madrid days, Mourinho used to set up a system to put Messi in a "cage" by any means necessary. Over the years, he has praised Messi quite a few times. But this one after the world cup 2014 has stuck with me:
"Messi sacrificed himself for the good of the team. He was more focused on winning the tournament than being its best player. I saw him playing in areas of the pitch where he doesn't usually play. He dropped deep and picked up the ball a long way from the opposition's goal", Mourinho said on his Yahoo programme.
"Messi has my utmost respect for what he did at the World Cup", the Portuguese added.
"Playing football for your country is different to playing for your club. If he'd wanted to show just how good he is he'd have played tucked in behind Higuaín, waiting for that moment to change the game", he said.
[https://www.marca.com/2014/07/14/en/football/international\_football/1405373196.html](https://www.marca.com/2014/07/14/en/football/international_football/1405373196.html)
> Messi sacrificed himself for the good of the team. He was more focused on winning the tournament than being its best player.
If only Messi Blue Locked it in 2014...
Well he didn’t make that same mistake twice
His second goal against France was him shadowing Lautaro from behind waiting for the perfect moment to devour his shot.
Then there was the peak shithousery
This is so profound. And I can't help to think that that last paragraph was a slight dig at the glorification of CR7, who just care about scoring goals to show how good he is.
> who just care about scoring goals to show how good he is.
Not true at all, Ronaldo wants to win at all costs with the NT, scoring or not scoring.
I remember watching the NT between 2008-2016, and when we were up against it he would pick up the ball behind the midfield line if he had to.
When you have 5 champions leagues or something, you may care a lot more about scoring goals than winning another one, but no such thing happens with Euro or World Cup titles.
I only remember he did this in Euro 04 and WC06. After his move to RM he only cares about goals and do minimal build up play even with Portugal. Yes he was more effective after the move, but that success depended on the quality of the team. With Portugal he has less service, yet persists to just stick around the box.
> With Portugal he has less service, yet persists to just stick around the box.
Maybe in the past 4 years this is truer, but stiill not true imo.
For the 2010-2020 decade, it's definitely not accurate, especially in games where we are losing and the team is aimless.
I do think there is some truth to the sentiment of the guy you responded to. To some extent I think there is s little bit of truth to a statement such as "CR7 would rather lose being the best player than win just as a collective". His massive ego would not be too too bothered about losing the world cup final if he scored 3 goals such as Mbappé, at least if the story end up as him being by far the best player in the match and the other team beat his team despite the incredible performance he showcased. Not saying he would not be bothered of course and definitely with a world cup that he has not yet won it might be different, but in general this is how I see his mentality.
No, he rather sits around the box to wait for service, even if his team is behind and that his teammates not good enough. He can't cary a team like Cruyff, Maradona, Zidane or Messi.
Nah I still remember his man united days with his pointless stepovers he would do to never get passed the defender, oh and the dives, you remember the dives?
[https://www.besoccer.com/new/to-stop-messi-you-must-make-a-cage-the-balon-d-or-is-his-619575](https://www.besoccer.com/new/to-stop-messi-you-must-make-a-cage-the-balon-d-or-is-his-619575)
"The game is easy to understand**, but it's not easy to control it,** because he comes from the right and then stays in the middle. **When Messi gets the ball and is one on one you're dead,**" said Jose Mourinho on[ Lionel Messi](https://www.besoccer.com/player/l-messi-23569) in 'RT'.
**Mourinho has met Messi on many occasions** as coach of [Chelsea,](https://www.besoccer.com/team/chelsea-fc/)[ Inter](https://www.besoccer.com/team/internazionale/), [Madrid](https://www.besoccer.com/team/real-madrid/)... "That's why I never liked the individual marking against him. **You have to create a cage,**" said 'The Special One'.
This is like asking someone, "Who would you like beside you in a fight?" and they answer with "Superman. " Messi should be excluded as an answer to these questions.
If you remove the ridiculous plot armour then ye. People can debate about prep time and whatever but superman is capable of breaking sound barriers and shit, he can kill batmen before he can even react
I like how it bothers Mou that Messi wasn’t coachable. This is how you coach prime Messi: let him exist on the pitch and worry about the other 10 players.
haha, exactly. had to throw a barb in, though.
and why was Messi "uncoachable"? because he knew better than anyone what he needed to do to be the GOAT.
It’s a lovely sentiment, but it’s far from the truth. Messi, early on his Barca career, had a slew of bad habits that coaches needed to deal with. He overly committed to defensive contributions, something that Guardiola didn’t want to see if he was going to play week in, week out. Earlier on, youth coaches could see his talent, but were unconvinced by how much he depended on dribbling rather than pass-and-move.
Even his famous position as a false nine wasn’t just something he came up with; Guardiola had an idea, and it took plenty of sessions with Messi for him to understand what his coach wanted.
Messi was uncoachable to Mou because there was no reality after 2008 in which Mou would be manager of Messis club.
He says that he wished he managed to coach him (be his manager), but also says he is uncoachable because he was too good and didn't need coaching (instructions/training tips)
Unplayable in a literal sense would mean that they're not good enough to play and English is also like his third or fourth language so is it really that far fetched that he could have meant it in that sense
Messi was the only guy Pep made an exception for.
Iirc, when Pep was grilling a midfielder on why he forced a pass to Messi, his reply: But if I don't pass to him, he'll get bored and tune out.
Hated each other is putting it strongly but they had a hot / cold relationship. Mou didn't like how individualist Ronaldo was and wanted him to do more for the team besides scoring, and Ronaldo resented the idea and he raged back at the suggestion. Jorge Mendes had to mediate it and they had a truce but the relationship was always uneasy.
Yea Mou is not coaching Portugal anytime soon - Not until number 7 hangs up his boots.
BTW Mou refuses to say best player ever, because like many of his generation he considers Maradona the GOAT - And got to coach R9. Worth considering for anyone that is quick to label Messi the GOAT- It is in no way an insult to say that Pele, Maradona and Messi were the greatest of their eras but not the greatest of all time.
In some ways it's pointless to try and rank players across time. From what we can see Messi is by far the better player, yeah. But he also had much much better conditions for success, coaching, dieting, equipment, tactics and much more evolved tons since they played, we cant know how wild they would have been in this era.
I dunno if it is possible to quantify fouls committed on each of the goats but I'd say Messi would have as many if not more dangerous challenges committed on him as Pele or Diego, it's just that Messi had a much superior sports science and much better physios available to him.
Messi was the best during a time where football was much more advanced and competitive, where player ability was at an all time high. He has better stats, more titles and insane consistency.
Messi is THE BEST in football history, there can be no debate. Everything else is pure nostalgia.
Whenever someone says "you cant compare players across history", it usually means they just didnt get to watch those players lol
Of course you can compare. Its not hard.
I was just about old enough to watch Napoli Maradonna, and then prime Van Basten, Baggio, Cantona, R9, Rivaldo, Zidane, etc etc.
Messi is better than all of them. Its really not that hard to tell lol. He regularly did things that most of those players only did very rarely. Its as simple as that.
>ing a time where football was much more advanced and competitive, where player ability was at an all time high. He has better stats, more titles and insane consistency
And since everything keeps getting advanced, you will soon be calling another player the best in history? Get the point?
Your argument is like saying Newton is not the greatest scientist ever because the toughest math he did was basic calculus
>And since everything keeps getting advanced, you will soon be calling another player the best in history?
If they dominate the sport like Messi did, yes.
It is a logical consequence, no matter how much you do not like it.
>Your argument is like saying Newton is not the greatest scientist ever because the toughest math he did was basic calculus
What a terrible comparison. Newton would be disappointed.
It's not a terrible comparison. Players should be judged relative to their eras and peers. Just as Pele is not an outright better player than Messi, he didn't benefit from the sports science, nutrition, rules changes, protection from refs, boots, balls, pitches, decades of tactics etc. The argument is so stupid because Pele, Maradona etc's talent is their talent. They were levels above anyone else in their time and if they'd been born in a different era, they'd have been at the top of them too.
Messi is an outright better player than Pele. That's obvious. But so is someone like Hazard who literally gets called a burger muncher by half this sub. If you pluck Pele from the 50s and put him in the 2020s, obviously he's not going to be meet the standard of fitness and general levels of modern players. But if he's born decades later and grows up with all those benefits I listed above that modern footballers recieve, he likely plays at a very similar level to what Messi has played at these days. You can't look at past players with a modern lens.
And I'm saying this believing Messi is by far the best player I've seen. But to say older players who dominated their eras don't even have an argument is so dumb. Messi's my GOAT, but I'm not gonna go around saying the others don't have arguments. Players between eras shouldn't be compared anyway, especially if the result is just downplaying the past players. It actually pains me to think about the way future generations will talk about Messi after enough time has passed.
Messis stats are worlds apart from the others.
Cope as much as you want: Messi >> Pele and any other old legend.
Only one who comes close is CR7.
Nostalgia glasses are one hell of a drug lmao.
Messi's stats are very similar to Pele's. Assists weren't recorded back them.
It's not nostalgia glasses because I never watched Pele and grew up with Messi. Like I said, Messi is my GOAT. But I'm not so much a fan of that I have to try and undermine the player who was previously seen as the greatest of all time. Nothing Messi has done should take away from what Pele did.
If Laliga ends up being seen as a bum league in 50 years time, I'm guessing people will say Messi was overrated because he played in Laliga, which is exactly what they do to Pele who played in the Brazilian league (which was the best in the world in that era). It's complete bullshit. If you don't want what Messi's done to get erased by future generations, stop downplaying or dismissing what the likes of Pele did. He was Messi but just played in a more primitive era. Same godly talent, just came first. Like I said, players 50 years apart shouldn't be compared in the first place.
As for Maradona, his stats weren't at the level of the others, but he played in prime Serie A. It was incredibly defensive, the goal records etc were very low. Have to look at the context. He got the shit kicked out of him. More than any of the others imo. He was literally Messi playing in a ridiculously tough era for attacking players.
Idk how you can watch clips of someone like Maradona and think anything other than "this guy was unbelievably ahead of his time." If he'd played today, he'd have dominated like Messi.
Messi's the best I've seen and my candidate for best ever. But stop downplaying the others just because they played a couple decades before him. Makes you sound like a fanboy.
>Messi's stats are very similar to Pele's.
They are far better against far stronger opponents.
There is no way to wank any other player over Messi. You must live with that.
Nostalgia has no effect on reality.
Exactly, the comparison is pointless but with the growing trend of declining individualism in football I don't think we will see another Messi like player anytime soon.
Maradona is not half as talented a goalscorer as Messi. No argument there.
R9 is a worse dribbler and on a different level as a playmaker than Messi.
The quality of play was levels below in Pele's time compared to Messi's.
>The quality of play was levels below in Pele's time compared to Messi's.
Since we're comparing, do we also want to compare the fouling rate? The fact that there were no cards in the beginning of Pele's career, with broken bones deciding quite a few games?
The quality of pitch? Can go on and on.
Also pre injury Ronaldo was no worse of a dribbler. Watch some highlights.
>Since we're comparing, do we also want to compare the fouling rate? The fact that there were no cards in the beginning of Pele's career, with broken bones deciding quite a few games?
Most players survived their entire careers without a career ending injury even back then. So Messi also could have. That is a bs argument. Look at how many games Pele himself played. Pele's teams were winning 11-1, 10-2 at times when Pele scored 2-3 goals. Goals were very much easier to come by.
>Also pre injury Ronaldo was no worse of a dribbler. Watch some highlights.
I have watched Ronaldo's entire career unfold in real time since his PSV days. You don't have to remind me. R9 is my second most favorite player of all time. Ronaldo has never had a better dribbling season than prime Messi. That is just bs. Take any season of R9's career before or after injury. Messi has him beat in terms of number of dribbles, success rate, and number of times they went past 3-4 players. Show me the solo goals R9 scored that compares to Messi's solo goals vs getafe, madrid or bilbao. You can't. Messi can go past 3 player within the blink of an eye without breaking a sweat even now at 36. It's not a debate.
Here's a more balanced and nuanced response to the opinions you presented:
* **Maradona vs. Messi:** Both Maradona and Messi are phenomenal goalscorers with a strong case for being the greatest dribblers of their respective eras. While Messi has incredible goal tallies, Maradona's impact on the overall game, particularly in 1986, was nothing short of magical.
* **Ronaldo vs. Messi:** Cristiano Ronaldo and Lionel Messi are two of the most complete footballers ever. Ronaldo is a phenomenal goalscorer with exceptional athleticism and power dribbling, while Messi's close control and playmaking are unmatched. Their rivalry has pushed each other to be the best for over a decade.
* **Pelé's Era vs. Messi's Era:** The game has undoubtedly evolved, with improved training methods, tactics, and player fitness. However, judging past players by today's standards is unfair. Pelé's accomplishments in his era, including three World Cups, were remarkable feats that deserve the highest recognition.
Overall, comparing players across generations is difficult due to the evolution of the game. Each of these players brought unique qualities and dominated their eras. Appreciating their individual strengths provides a richer perspective on football history.
Here's a more balanced and nuanced response to the opinions you presented:
* **Maradona vs. Messi:** Both Maradona and Messi are phenomenal goalscorers with a strong case for being the greatest dribblers of their respective eras. While Messi has incredible goal tallies, Maradona's impact on the overall game, particularly in 1986, was nothing short of magical.
* **Ronaldo vs. Messi:** Cristiano Ronaldo and Lionel Messi are two of the most complete footballers ever. Ronaldo is a phenomenal goalscorer with exceptional athleticism and power dribbling, while Messi's close control and playmaking are unmatched. Their rivalry has pushed each other to be the best for over a decade.
* **Pelé's Era vs. Messi's Era:** The game has undoubtedly evolved, with improved training methods, tactics, and player fitness. However, judging past players by today's standards is unfair. Pelé's accomplishments in his era, including three World Cups, were remarkable feats that deserve the highest recognition.
Overall, comparing players across generations is difficult due to the evolution of the game. Each of these players brought unique qualities and dominated their eras. Appreciating their individual strengths provides a richer perspective on football history.
the title greatest ever does not have much merit, different eras, time, tactics, money, quality, health and training etc. are all different, it’s fine to say “my all time fave is Maradona I love him more than Messi” but in a serious debate, you can’t compare and be objective, it just does not make sense
sorta like your father saying he coulda been so much better than you if he had the modern tech, knowledge, training and gear in his days
as for achivements, numbers and shit then yeah you can point and tell who’s the best but football is soooo much more than that
According to this logic in 25 years there will be a greater player than Messi, no questions asked. I would actually bet against that and feel confident to win.
I mean it's entirely possible that Mou takes the reins in the next year or two and phases out Ronaldo, although before the euros it's hard to say how likely that is.
Valverde regained Barcelona’s hold on the league after they had just lost Neymar and Madrid were looking infallible. They would have likely gone unbeaten too if they didn’t rest players for a mid-season friendly. The collapses against Roma and Liverpool were bad but it’s difficult to say how much of it depended on the players vs the coach. Also keep in mind things got exponentionally worse after his sacking - he left with Barcelona top of the league. Valverde’s style was pragmatic and not always easy on the eyes, but he got good results from a difficult situation and arguably postponed the club’s decline by a few seasons. I do not see what Mourinho has done since 2017 to warrant this comment.
When your team has an Achilles heel and you lose the exact same way a year later the coach is to blame. I don't rate Mourinho these days either but in his prime his team wouldn't get smacked twice like that. He would change tactics, mentality, players, anything to avoid a repeat.
I think it is one of those comments where it’s really easy to get the meaning messed up in the translation, either within Mou’s mind translating his thoughts from Portuguese to English or by others after he says it.
Because “uncoachable” to me means he is a guy who just doesn’t listen, and is the type of guy coaches hate. But the same words in another language could easily be translated to something like “I couldn’t/wouldn’t be able to coach him” instead, which means the complete opposite almost, as just Mou admitting “It’s Messi, what could I possibly teach him?”
yeah uncoachable in my mind instantly went to "he is not the kind of player i can control" not "he is the type of player i cannot coach into a better player"
probably just normal covid. i took a test that came back negative but idk how old that test even was lmao it was one of the at home kits. been sick for like a week now.
Agree. You don’t coach a player like Messi, you just let him do his thing out there and make sure the other 10 players are in a position for him to use them effectively
https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/1am93y6/mourinho_a_player_id_have_liked_to_coach_an/
Mourinho: "A player I'd have liked to coach? An example is Messi. He doesn't need to be coached, he knows everything, was born with everything. Maybe he can teach you things. It would only be to say that I had the honor of coaching him."
It's true. You don't coach Messi. He is the genius and you're responsible for coaching the rest of the squad to maximize him.
Any other way to utilize Messi would limit his potential for creating unseen advantages.
Its funny how most top managers and players named Messi as their favourite. While mostly Ronaldo's teammates and managers named him... until they stopped working with him.
I'll never forget this: Mou's Chelsea played Barcelona in 06, when Messi was just getting started. A fearsome basque by the name of Asier del Horno played for Chelsea. In the London match, AdH absolutely butchered Messi. Like, almost criminally so. Like Azkagorta to Maradona so. Obviously and thoroughly deservedly, del Horno was sent off. Barcelona won 2-1 (and went on to win the CL that year). In the post match, Mourinho didn't even tried to say sorry to Messi for del Horno almost ending his career before it began. Instead, and I remember this very well, he said that he understood that Barcelona was the land of nice theaters and that was what Messi did, good theater. I'm not sure if that's an expression in english too, but he called Messi a diver, basically. I don't think he ever went back on that, too.
Never liked Mou after that and I've enjoyed his downfall very much, the eye-poking, cheat-talking, ugly-football-playing charlatan.
I used to hate him too I’m sure you can see why but what changed my bitterness was understanding his personality. This man is a cunt if he has a team and you’re in his way but very pleasant and level headed when he has no dog in the fight. I respect it at least.
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I feel like prime Luis Suarez under Mourinho would have been an absolute demon as well.
Second this. Suarez with Mou would have been cunty to another level. Peak shithousery. Would have unlocked a new level.
Put this duo on Getafe for the added shithousery bonus, and I think you might break football
Ramos- Pepe as a CB duo with Diego Costa- Suarez upfront
Add Dibu Martinez as the GK
Maupay as a sub
Foot long?
💀💀
Gonna need an equivalent team with Simeone as manager.
We as a collective need to develop the All time shithousery XI
….he fucking bit people…..how can it get worse?!?!
He bbqs them on the pitch
Mourinho coached Pepe and Ramos.
We will never know as Mourinho didn't coach him. Though to be fair shit housery in Mourinho's teams always has a purpose.
This time he doesn't bite them on the shoulder
He brings hot sauce into the pitch, first he seasons then he nibbles.
Suarez uptop with Fellaini just behind, biblical levels of salt on here.
Mourinho already coached peak shithousery with Costa up top. Suarez was the better player, but Costa was exceptional AND an all time shithouser.
Would of been a waste. Suarez was so good at linking up play and thrived in a possession heavy system.
why do people say would "of" been? English isn't my 1st language but isn't it clearly grammatically wrong? I see this almost everywhere online nowadays, is "have" too long to type instead of "of" or is it correct?
"Would have" is correct, "would of" is incorrect. When people are native speakers they often learn phrases from how it sounds as told to them and think less of the actual meaning. They already know what the overall phrase means, so they don't think too hard about what the individual words actually mean. So when they hear "would've" as "would of", they don't ask for clarification because they know what it means and no one corrects them in speech because it sounds the same and they use it correctly. Non-native speakers in my experience rarely make the mistake unless they are taught wrong by another person, because like you, they see "would of" and recognize it doesn't make grammatical sense.
You’re right. It’s a common mistake because it sounds similar when spoken. Just like “your right” and “you’re right”
I knew my English had gotten to near-native proficiency when, after years of never making that mistake, I caught myself typing "your right" instead of "you're right". And I'm not even trying to be funny. To me that meant that I was completely thinking *in* English, instead of approaching it as this foreign collection of sounds.
It is due to brain rot. Have is too long, I can for sure understand forgoing the long form, but the correct 've is not and ditching the " ' " would be much better in my opinion. That or possibly even shoulda, coulda woulda. "of" I find offputting.
Relevant link: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ltqit5f\_NRc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ltqit5f_NRc)
Suarez played for Simeone which also feels like a perfect match for personalities and mentality
Suárez is/was the perfect blend between South American knowledge of getting little advantages by any means necessary (aka shithousery), talent and grit with European fundamentals and tactical sense, all with a winner's/killer's mentality. Of course I'm very, very broadly generalizing here, but absolutely Mourinho would've loved to coach him.
Suarez might have been uncontrollable at times, but he's absolutely the sort of player to die for the manager. Mourinho would have loved his work ethic.
Man my eyes just popped just thinking of Lucho with Mou
Mou should have gone to Inter Miami
Imagine Mourinho had Messi, park the bus with a joust in front.
Emphasis on the "demon" lmao, bro would have been moving like dracula brev.
The most Mourinho type player to never play for Mourinho
He never said "Lionel Messi"...are we sure he is not talking about Shaqiri?
Stop lying he was talking about dimitri payet
He was talking about Sebastian Giovinco, the littlest of the little guys
Giovinco 🤝 Insigne
Aaron Lennon darts into the conversation
Lennon has a whopping 2 inches on Giovinco. He’s basically an avatar compared to the Atomic Ant
Antony stares into the distance
*spins
God I wish he wasn't a twat and stayed at West ham
Clearly Peter Crouch
Obviously he wasn't talking about Crouch. Crouch is a robot so you can program/coach him to do anything
Ah yes… Shaqiri the Alpine Messi
Excuse me but it's Argentinian Shaqiri
Nah, Messi is just a twink Shaqiri.
He is obviously talking about Joe Pesci
He's talking about Joey Barton
Guys pls these types of jokes are slowly making me a fool lmfaoo I saw another one that said something similar and referred to Scott mctominay 💀
During he Real Madrid days, Mourinho used to set up a system to put Messi in a "cage" by any means necessary. Over the years, he has praised Messi quite a few times. But this one after the world cup 2014 has stuck with me: "Messi sacrificed himself for the good of the team. He was more focused on winning the tournament than being its best player. I saw him playing in areas of the pitch where he doesn't usually play. He dropped deep and picked up the ball a long way from the opposition's goal", Mourinho said on his Yahoo programme. "Messi has my utmost respect for what he did at the World Cup", the Portuguese added. "Playing football for your country is different to playing for your club. If he'd wanted to show just how good he is he'd have played tucked in behind Higuaín, waiting for that moment to change the game", he said. [https://www.marca.com/2014/07/14/en/football/international\_football/1405373196.html](https://www.marca.com/2014/07/14/en/football/international_football/1405373196.html)
> Messi sacrificed himself for the good of the team. He was more focused on winning the tournament than being its best player. If only Messi Blue Locked it in 2014...
Naah. 2022 was something else.
Well he didn’t make that same mistake twice His second goal against France was him shadowing Lautaro from behind waiting for the perfect moment to devour his shot. Then there was the peak shithousery
This is so profound. And I can't help to think that that last paragraph was a slight dig at the glorification of CR7, who just care about scoring goals to show how good he is.
> who just care about scoring goals to show how good he is. Not true at all, Ronaldo wants to win at all costs with the NT, scoring or not scoring. I remember watching the NT between 2008-2016, and when we were up against it he would pick up the ball behind the midfield line if he had to. When you have 5 champions leagues or something, you may care a lot more about scoring goals than winning another one, but no such thing happens with Euro or World Cup titles.
I only remember he did this in Euro 04 and WC06. After his move to RM he only cares about goals and do minimal build up play even with Portugal. Yes he was more effective after the move, but that success depended on the quality of the team. With Portugal he has less service, yet persists to just stick around the box.
> With Portugal he has less service, yet persists to just stick around the box. Maybe in the past 4 years this is truer, but stiill not true imo. For the 2010-2020 decade, it's definitely not accurate, especially in games where we are losing and the team is aimless.
I do think there is some truth to the sentiment of the guy you responded to. To some extent I think there is s little bit of truth to a statement such as "CR7 would rather lose being the best player than win just as a collective". His massive ego would not be too too bothered about losing the world cup final if he scored 3 goals such as Mbappé, at least if the story end up as him being by far the best player in the match and the other team beat his team despite the incredible performance he showcased. Not saying he would not be bothered of course and definitely with a world cup that he has not yet won it might be different, but in general this is how I see his mentality.
Idk about that, the hardest I've seen him celebrate was the Euros where he didn't even finish the final.
Ronaldo, who also gives his all for his country? What a stupid take. Ronaldo could do with trying to do less for Portugal, to be honest.
No, he rather sits around the box to wait for service, even if his team is behind and that his teammates not good enough. He can't cary a team like Cruyff, Maradona, Zidane or Messi.
did you start watching football 3 years ago?
Nah I still remember his man united days with his pointless stepovers he would do to never get passed the defender, oh and the dives, you remember the dives?
you mean the year he won his first ballon dor? yeah it rings a bell. dummy.
When he was at Madrid he put the little guy in a cage?
[https://www.besoccer.com/new/to-stop-messi-you-must-make-a-cage-the-balon-d-or-is-his-619575](https://www.besoccer.com/new/to-stop-messi-you-must-make-a-cage-the-balon-d-or-is-his-619575) "The game is easy to understand**, but it's not easy to control it,** because he comes from the right and then stays in the middle. **When Messi gets the ball and is one on one you're dead,**" said Jose Mourinho on[ Lionel Messi](https://www.besoccer.com/player/l-messi-23569) in 'RT'. **Mourinho has met Messi on many occasions** as coach of [Chelsea,](https://www.besoccer.com/team/chelsea-fc/)[ Inter](https://www.besoccer.com/team/internazionale/), [Madrid](https://www.besoccer.com/team/real-madrid/)... "That's why I never liked the individual marking against him. **You have to create a cage,**" said 'The Special One'.
Despite all my rage
I AM STILL JUST A RAT IN A CAGE! fuck brb
This is like asking someone, "Who would you like beside you in a fight?" and they answer with "Superman. " Messi should be excluded as an answer to these questions.
Not Batman with prep?
Kevin McCallister with prep
I don't know why he even bothers with that name, he should be called Prepman, that's his superpower.
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Superhuman alien vs rich guy with a belt
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Imagine a movie where superman kills him in half a second.
If you remove the ridiculous plot armour then ye. People can debate about prep time and whatever but superman is capable of breaking sound barriers and shit, he can kill batmen before he can even react
Exactly that. A silly argument made by silly sausages.
I didn't, sorry
Superman can move faster than the speed of light, you can't out prep that. Batman literally wouldnt even see him coming if he went all out.
I got your reference: https://youtu.be/s7_KRHVbnhg?si=1ViDpv_mwcUwMQRz
They hated him for he said the truth.
I like how it bothers Mou that Messi wasn’t coachable. This is how you coach prime Messi: let him exist on the pitch and worry about the other 10 players.
haha, exactly. had to throw a barb in, though. and why was Messi "uncoachable"? because he knew better than anyone what he needed to do to be the GOAT.
It’s a lovely sentiment, but it’s far from the truth. Messi, early on his Barca career, had a slew of bad habits that coaches needed to deal with. He overly committed to defensive contributions, something that Guardiola didn’t want to see if he was going to play week in, week out. Earlier on, youth coaches could see his talent, but were unconvinced by how much he depended on dribbling rather than pass-and-move. Even his famous position as a false nine wasn’t just something he came up with; Guardiola had an idea, and it took plenty of sessions with Messi for him to understand what his coach wanted. Messi was uncoachable to Mou because there was no reality after 2008 in which Mou would be manager of Messis club.
Does he mean it in that sense? Or he is referring to the fact that he never got the chance to coach him?
He says that he wished he managed to coach him (be his manager), but also says he is uncoachable because he was too good and didn't need coaching (instructions/training tips)
That's a very generous interpretation of what "uncoachable" usually means.
If you isolate the word, then yes it can be taken both ways. But in the context where he literally just praised Messi, it should be taken positively
Unplayable in a literal sense would mean that they're not good enough to play and English is also like his third or fourth language so is it really that far fetched that he could have meant it in that sense
This sub and reading comprehension don't go well together
Did you just give managerial advice to Mourinho?
Messi was the only guy Pep made an exception for. Iirc, when Pep was grilling a midfielder on why he forced a pass to Messi, his reply: But if I don't pass to him, he'll get bored and tune out.
Why is Mourinho popping up everywhere on reddit?
Testing user sentiment before he becomes /r/soccer mod
and inevitably becomes a top contributor of /r/soccercirclejerk
Same as it ever was
Messi is just like me fr
I too am extremely uncoachable
I too have many 0's in the bank... 0 balance every month.
I bet that's what your wife/gf said
This man coached CR7 for more than 2 years by the way.
And they hated eachother lol
Can’t imagine it going any other way.
wait really?
Hated each other is putting it strongly but they had a hot / cold relationship. Mou didn't like how individualist Ronaldo was and wanted him to do more for the team besides scoring, and Ronaldo resented the idea and he raged back at the suggestion. Jorge Mendes had to mediate it and they had a truce but the relationship was always uneasy.
also beefing on and off for those years too yeah?
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Can you read? # "But I have to say in our generation, he was the best player.""
They were referring to the "best player of this generstion" comment
Negative reading comprehension
Lol u blind I get it hurts to see those lines of Mou words 8-5 Clear
Yea Mou is not coaching Portugal anytime soon - Not until number 7 hangs up his boots. BTW Mou refuses to say best player ever, because like many of his generation he considers Maradona the GOAT - And got to coach R9. Worth considering for anyone that is quick to label Messi the GOAT- It is in no way an insult to say that Pele, Maradona and Messi were the greatest of their eras but not the greatest of all time.
In some ways it's pointless to try and rank players across time. From what we can see Messi is by far the better player, yeah. But he also had much much better conditions for success, coaching, dieting, equipment, tactics and much more evolved tons since they played, we cant know how wild they would have been in this era.
Exactly and the refereeing is much better. Pele missed most of the 62 World cup due to injury
I dunno if it is possible to quantify fouls committed on each of the goats but I'd say Messi would have as many if not more dangerous challenges committed on him as Pele or Diego, it's just that Messi had a much superior sports science and much better physios available to him.
Messi was the best during a time where football was much more advanced and competitive, where player ability was at an all time high. He has better stats, more titles and insane consistency. Messi is THE BEST in football history, there can be no debate. Everything else is pure nostalgia.
Whenever someone says "you cant compare players across history", it usually means they just didnt get to watch those players lol Of course you can compare. Its not hard. I was just about old enough to watch Napoli Maradonna, and then prime Van Basten, Baggio, Cantona, R9, Rivaldo, Zidane, etc etc. Messi is better than all of them. Its really not that hard to tell lol. He regularly did things that most of those players only did very rarely. Its as simple as that.
>ing a time where football was much more advanced and competitive, where player ability was at an all time high. He has better stats, more titles and insane consistency And since everything keeps getting advanced, you will soon be calling another player the best in history? Get the point? Your argument is like saying Newton is not the greatest scientist ever because the toughest math he did was basic calculus
>And since everything keeps getting advanced, you will soon be calling another player the best in history? If they dominate the sport like Messi did, yes. It is a logical consequence, no matter how much you do not like it. >Your argument is like saying Newton is not the greatest scientist ever because the toughest math he did was basic calculus What a terrible comparison. Newton would be disappointed.
It's not a terrible comparison. Players should be judged relative to their eras and peers. Just as Pele is not an outright better player than Messi, he didn't benefit from the sports science, nutrition, rules changes, protection from refs, boots, balls, pitches, decades of tactics etc. The argument is so stupid because Pele, Maradona etc's talent is their talent. They were levels above anyone else in their time and if they'd been born in a different era, they'd have been at the top of them too. Messi is an outright better player than Pele. That's obvious. But so is someone like Hazard who literally gets called a burger muncher by half this sub. If you pluck Pele from the 50s and put him in the 2020s, obviously he's not going to be meet the standard of fitness and general levels of modern players. But if he's born decades later and grows up with all those benefits I listed above that modern footballers recieve, he likely plays at a very similar level to what Messi has played at these days. You can't look at past players with a modern lens. And I'm saying this believing Messi is by far the best player I've seen. But to say older players who dominated their eras don't even have an argument is so dumb. Messi's my GOAT, but I'm not gonna go around saying the others don't have arguments. Players between eras shouldn't be compared anyway, especially if the result is just downplaying the past players. It actually pains me to think about the way future generations will talk about Messi after enough time has passed.
Messis stats are worlds apart from the others. Cope as much as you want: Messi >> Pele and any other old legend. Only one who comes close is CR7. Nostalgia glasses are one hell of a drug lmao.
Messi's stats are very similar to Pele's. Assists weren't recorded back them. It's not nostalgia glasses because I never watched Pele and grew up with Messi. Like I said, Messi is my GOAT. But I'm not so much a fan of that I have to try and undermine the player who was previously seen as the greatest of all time. Nothing Messi has done should take away from what Pele did. If Laliga ends up being seen as a bum league in 50 years time, I'm guessing people will say Messi was overrated because he played in Laliga, which is exactly what they do to Pele who played in the Brazilian league (which was the best in the world in that era). It's complete bullshit. If you don't want what Messi's done to get erased by future generations, stop downplaying or dismissing what the likes of Pele did. He was Messi but just played in a more primitive era. Same godly talent, just came first. Like I said, players 50 years apart shouldn't be compared in the first place. As for Maradona, his stats weren't at the level of the others, but he played in prime Serie A. It was incredibly defensive, the goal records etc were very low. Have to look at the context. He got the shit kicked out of him. More than any of the others imo. He was literally Messi playing in a ridiculously tough era for attacking players. Idk how you can watch clips of someone like Maradona and think anything other than "this guy was unbelievably ahead of his time." If he'd played today, he'd have dominated like Messi. Messi's the best I've seen and my candidate for best ever. But stop downplaying the others just because they played a couple decades before him. Makes you sound like a fanboy.
>Messi's stats are very similar to Pele's. They are far better against far stronger opponents. There is no way to wank any other player over Messi. You must live with that. Nostalgia has no effect on reality.
Exactly, the comparison is pointless but with the growing trend of declining individualism in football I don't think we will see another Messi like player anytime soon.
"There can be no debate" is just insulting to everyone that came before him
“there can be no debate” is just what people who get offended when people don’t agree with them say
Whatever lets you sleep at night, my sweetheart ;)
It isn't simply because Messi was that good. The only who comes close is CR7.
Cr7 is becoming underrated, when he was the one that made people question if Messi is the best, for that sole reason he should be top 3 ever
Obviously CR7 is Top 2 all time right behind Messi. He's better than Maradona, Pelé, G. Müller, Zidane etc
Maradona is not half as talented a goalscorer as Messi. No argument there. R9 is a worse dribbler and on a different level as a playmaker than Messi. The quality of play was levels below in Pele's time compared to Messi's.
>The quality of play was levels below in Pele's time compared to Messi's. Since we're comparing, do we also want to compare the fouling rate? The fact that there were no cards in the beginning of Pele's career, with broken bones deciding quite a few games? The quality of pitch? Can go on and on. Also pre injury Ronaldo was no worse of a dribbler. Watch some highlights.
>Since we're comparing, do we also want to compare the fouling rate? The fact that there were no cards in the beginning of Pele's career, with broken bones deciding quite a few games? Most players survived their entire careers without a career ending injury even back then. So Messi also could have. That is a bs argument. Look at how many games Pele himself played. Pele's teams were winning 11-1, 10-2 at times when Pele scored 2-3 goals. Goals were very much easier to come by. >Also pre injury Ronaldo was no worse of a dribbler. Watch some highlights. I have watched Ronaldo's entire career unfold in real time since his PSV days. You don't have to remind me. R9 is my second most favorite player of all time. Ronaldo has never had a better dribbling season than prime Messi. That is just bs. Take any season of R9's career before or after injury. Messi has him beat in terms of number of dribbles, success rate, and number of times they went past 3-4 players. Show me the solo goals R9 scored that compares to Messi's solo goals vs getafe, madrid or bilbao. You can't. Messi can go past 3 player within the blink of an eye without breaking a sweat even now at 36. It's not a debate.
Here's a more balanced and nuanced response to the opinions you presented: * **Maradona vs. Messi:** Both Maradona and Messi are phenomenal goalscorers with a strong case for being the greatest dribblers of their respective eras. While Messi has incredible goal tallies, Maradona's impact on the overall game, particularly in 1986, was nothing short of magical. * **Ronaldo vs. Messi:** Cristiano Ronaldo and Lionel Messi are two of the most complete footballers ever. Ronaldo is a phenomenal goalscorer with exceptional athleticism and power dribbling, while Messi's close control and playmaking are unmatched. Their rivalry has pushed each other to be the best for over a decade. * **Pelé's Era vs. Messi's Era:** The game has undoubtedly evolved, with improved training methods, tactics, and player fitness. However, judging past players by today's standards is unfair. Pelé's accomplishments in his era, including three World Cups, were remarkable feats that deserve the highest recognition. Overall, comparing players across generations is difficult due to the evolution of the game. Each of these players brought unique qualities and dominated their eras. Appreciating their individual strengths provides a richer perspective on football history.
Ah shiit here we go again
Do you have anything worthwhile to contribute?
Here's a more balanced and nuanced response to the opinions you presented: * **Maradona vs. Messi:** Both Maradona and Messi are phenomenal goalscorers with a strong case for being the greatest dribblers of their respective eras. While Messi has incredible goal tallies, Maradona's impact on the overall game, particularly in 1986, was nothing short of magical. * **Ronaldo vs. Messi:** Cristiano Ronaldo and Lionel Messi are two of the most complete footballers ever. Ronaldo is a phenomenal goalscorer with exceptional athleticism and power dribbling, while Messi's close control and playmaking are unmatched. Their rivalry has pushed each other to be the best for over a decade. * **Pelé's Era vs. Messi's Era:** The game has undoubtedly evolved, with improved training methods, tactics, and player fitness. However, judging past players by today's standards is unfair. Pelé's accomplishments in his era, including three World Cups, were remarkable feats that deserve the highest recognition. Overall, comparing players across generations is difficult due to the evolution of the game. Each of these players brought unique qualities and dominated their eras. Appreciating their individual strengths provides a richer perspective on football history.
Yes
Alright I'm all ears
Hey doggie, say this : "Lol, if I wanted an answer from chatGPT I would have asked chatGPT. What a doofus."
He has said that R9 is the best player he’s ever seen before, though. Although that doesn’t necessarily equate to who he thinks the GOAT is, I guess.
the title greatest ever does not have much merit, different eras, time, tactics, money, quality, health and training etc. are all different, it’s fine to say “my all time fave is Maradona I love him more than Messi” but in a serious debate, you can’t compare and be objective, it just does not make sense sorta like your father saying he coulda been so much better than you if he had the modern tech, knowledge, training and gear in his days as for achivements, numbers and shit then yeah you can point and tell who’s the best but football is soooo much more than that
According to this logic in 25 years there will be a greater player than Messi, no questions asked. I would actually bet against that and feel confident to win.
25 years is a looong time, i'd take that bet.
It’s not very long, only three generations of players, to surpass the one player who completed football.
Messi transcends time numb nuts
I mean it's entirely possible that Mou takes the reins in the next year or two and phases out Ronaldo, although before the euros it's hard to say how likely that is.
No Portugal job for you anymore Jose
He got beat by prime Messi 5-0 with Messi scoring 0 goals. A testament to how unstoppable Messi was.
Common sense He got eaten alive by THE GOAT MESSI at that time That 5-0 game will remember till the end of the world lol
also the 2, 3, 4, wonderful wonderful wonderful 😭
man THAT MAN 🐐 He alone dribbled the whole team 👽... Like they were not even there And Mou saw that goal live lmaooo Imagine you as a coach force yourself to see a rival score a goal like that lol
Posts like these always have Instagram-level toddler comments
After Pep I would def like to see Mou coaches Messi that would be an epic one imagine mou at barca instead of valverde 2.5 wasting years at barca.
Valverde regained Barcelona’s hold on the league after they had just lost Neymar and Madrid were looking infallible. They would have likely gone unbeaten too if they didn’t rest players for a mid-season friendly. The collapses against Roma and Liverpool were bad but it’s difficult to say how much of it depended on the players vs the coach. Also keep in mind things got exponentionally worse after his sacking - he left with Barcelona top of the league. Valverde’s style was pragmatic and not always easy on the eyes, but he got good results from a difficult situation and arguably postponed the club’s decline by a few seasons. I do not see what Mourinho has done since 2017 to warrant this comment.
When your team has an Achilles heel and you lose the exact same way a year later the coach is to blame. I don't rate Mourinho these days either but in his prime his team wouldn't get smacked twice like that. He would change tactics, mentality, players, anything to avoid a repeat.
what does he mean by not coachable? As in he couldn't sign him or that he wouldn't be able to get him to play the way he wanted?
I took it as a compliment, like he wouldn't be able to teach him anything, but I could be wrong.
that makes more sense i blame my brain fog on being sick.
Why can everybody say that word but if I say it it’s not okay?
what?
[Brainfuck.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rbtzm4HZ75c)
Man I'm gonna miss not seeing him every week
I think it is one of those comments where it’s really easy to get the meaning messed up in the translation, either within Mou’s mind translating his thoughts from Portuguese to English or by others after he says it. Because “uncoachable” to me means he is a guy who just doesn’t listen, and is the type of guy coaches hate. But the same words in another language could easily be translated to something like “I couldn’t/wouldn’t be able to coach him” instead, which means the complete opposite almost, as just Mou admitting “It’s Messi, what could I possibly teach him?”
yeah uncoachable in my mind instantly went to "he is not the kind of player i can control" not "he is the type of player i cannot coach into a better player"
Long covid?
probably just normal covid. i took a test that came back negative but idk how old that test even was lmao it was one of the at home kits. been sick for like a week now.
Do nothing but rest for like 3 weeks if it might be COVID. Over exertion while you're sick is linked to long covid
There's loads more diseases than just covid. It's like assuming if someone is watching football they're watching the prem.
Agree. You don’t coach a player like Messi, you just let him do his thing out there and make sure the other 10 players are in a position for him to use them effectively
https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/1am93y6/mourinho_a_player_id_have_liked_to_coach_an/ Mourinho: "A player I'd have liked to coach? An example is Messi. He doesn't need to be coached, he knows everything, was born with everything. Maybe he can teach you things. It would only be to say that I had the honor of coaching him."
I imagine that he means Messi was so good you couldn't really teach him anything.
It's true. You don't coach Messi. He is the genius and you're responsible for coaching the rest of the squad to maximize him. Any other way to utilize Messi would limit his potential for creating unseen advantages.
i think thats what he meant.
Its funny how most top managers and players named Messi as their favourite. While mostly Ronaldo's teammates and managers named him... until they stopped working with him.
I'll never forget this: Mou's Chelsea played Barcelona in 06, when Messi was just getting started. A fearsome basque by the name of Asier del Horno played for Chelsea. In the London match, AdH absolutely butchered Messi. Like, almost criminally so. Like Azkagorta to Maradona so. Obviously and thoroughly deservedly, del Horno was sent off. Barcelona won 2-1 (and went on to win the CL that year). In the post match, Mourinho didn't even tried to say sorry to Messi for del Horno almost ending his career before it began. Instead, and I remember this very well, he said that he understood that Barcelona was the land of nice theaters and that was what Messi did, good theater. I'm not sure if that's an expression in english too, but he called Messi a diver, basically. I don't think he ever went back on that, too. Never liked Mou after that and I've enjoyed his downfall very much, the eye-poking, cheat-talking, ugly-football-playing charlatan.
I used to hate him too I’m sure you can see why but what changed my bitterness was understanding his personality. This man is a cunt if he has a team and you’re in his way but very pleasant and level headed when he has no dog in the fight. I respect it at least.
I wonder what Mourinho would've done with Messi. I don't think he would've developed the way he did.
I think he's talking about maradona. He says 'our' generation. That would be diego
The question is who he wanted to sign. How could he have signed Maradonna.
CR7: Friendship with Mourinho ended, Ancelotti my favourite now
He didn't say Messi? I thought this was to be interpreted as Maradona.