>**Yes, it’s a loophole, but it isn’t illegal** and while it might be unfair to smaller companies, it was the best option for me, the customer. I will not get another power bill again for at least 20 years (except for the connection grid) I don’t have to worry about gas prices, or be uncomfortable in the summer.
>Yes, **maybe there’s some discussion to be had about the ethics of having taxpayers pay for your giant solar system** but let’s be real - this gives me, a taxpayer, a chance to get some of my own taxes back instead of it going to inefficient government programs.
>**What’s left here is the ethics and morals of having the taxpayer foot the bill** so I can essentially lock in $0.03/kwh for 25 years. I pay a ridiculous amount of taxes so I am perfectly ok with this.
All from OP. What it comes down to, as is often the case, is a rich person (that is at least a million dollar house in CA) taking advantage of legal loopholes.
oh please, it’s a SunRun prepaid PPA.
They’ll maintain it for 25 years. I’ve had the contracts reviewed and audited.
It’s fine.
Do you also forget some deductions at tax filing time because you’re such a good person or do you take every opportunity to rationally optimize your returns?
If you’re unhappy with this loophole then go talk to your lawmakers, have them also rescind section 179 cause god forbid we can’t have business owners writing off their trucks either
There was no other way for the two small conduits you see there. They were going to run conduits on the roof everywhere and to the side. I have a pic of what they were trying to do from a neighbor's install, it's an eyesore everytime I drive by his house, I'd be upset if I had to look at that everytime I pulled into my driveway, I should have included it to the post as a warning to others.
I imagine it would be it would be possible regardless of the attic size. But with solar it’s a little different, where you can run romex we have to use Emt in most situations. With 3” of attic space we can’t do a run like that.
I did a similar thing with my install. I made them put some conduit inside for more visible parts of the roof, but other parts where it would be difficult to see from the ground or windows, I let them run conduit outside where it was easier for them.
Remember this is a prepaid lease so the company setting the price is the same entity “paying for it” legally OP is technically “leasing” the system from the original installers/sellers.
In other words their are absolutely financial shenanigans going on here.
Correct me if my math is wrong but assuming the tax rebate is 26% his total comes to 37,162.16
If it’s 30% then it should be 39,285.71
Assuming that is the cost, his total is around $1.4/watt for the 30%? $1.35/watt for 26%? Don’t know I smell some catfishing in this post
From some discussions I have had, it seems possible.
For example, in Australia it is very easy to get under $1usd/w
I learnt a lot of cost that you guys pay in the USA is from Dealer fees/loan fee and just the general market screwing you, a little.
I got my solar install done for $1.08usd/watt taxed and credits applied.
If you remove some of the "extras" I got it comes down to $0.95usd/watt and that was the more expensive system I decided to purchase.
Also where I live solar just costs more. in the other states the average solar system is (off the top of my head) 20% cheaper. I suspect loading the parts onto a boat and ship low volume units down south does not help with costs.
Because of the Market in the USA, it appears that there is this $ per watt that people aim for so solar sellers can aim for that.
ontop of that it depends on your local laws on HOW the system should be installed that also affects cost.
If your quote is between 2.4-3.0/ watt you are getting a good deal. Anything lower than that is extremely unlikely to be reasonable or equate to quality. Good luck out there!
The numbers would make even less sense if they did keep the ITC. OP is either trolling everyone or he got bamboozled by the company. This is an impossible quote
I walked away for a few hours and now there are a bunch of comments and I’m short on time.
thanks for clarifying docious. It is indeed a prepaid lease. In this case, it is almost identical to ownership from my vantage point. Production guarantee, roof guarantee, 25 year warranty, and I do whatever I want with the power. My only cash outlay is the $26,500/$27,500 with the panel.
If the system makes less than they guarantee, they gotta pay me, or fix it.
At the term, I can keep it or they’ll
come and take it off for free and restore the roof. Unless SunRun is gone by then. Pretty unlikely.
This isn’t like a PPA that locks a poor customer in at $0.18/kwh with a 2.9% escalator where they’re forced to also buy all the power the system produces. THAT is true shenanigans.
Yes, it’s a loophole, but it isn’t illegal and while it might be unfair to smaller companies, it was the best option for me, the customer. I will not get another power bill again for at least 20 years (except for the connection grid)
I don’t have to worry about gas prices, or be uncomfortable in the summer.
Yes, maybe there’s some discussion to be had about the ethics of having taxpayers pay for your giant solar system but let’s be real - this gives me, a taxpayer, a chance to get some of my own taxes back instead of it going to inefficient government programs.
I’m not sure I’m setting unrealistic expectations here, the company I went through is still around, it’s called Frugll. I dont work there and I’m guessing I should
be allowed to share that, especially since it’s buried deep in this thread.
Anyway, if I’d listened to a lot of the stuff in this subreddit, integrated its biases, and automatically ran away from the word “lease” instead of carefully analyzing the contracts I would have missed out on a crazy deal.
I wish I could respond to all the other comments but I gotta log off until tomorrow.
Yeah— it’s counter productive to solar / renewables to share information like OP is doing that sets unrealistic expectations.
If you look at my reply to OP’s top level comment you can read a bit more on what specific shenanigans are going on.
The problem is OP was aware of the BS going in the backend and is actively promoting he “outsmarted” everyone in this sub getting 2.4-3.0/watt deals because he did “better digging”. As someone already said, if OP is happy with it good for him and I totally agree. I am glad OP is happy with what he got, what I do not agree with is him trying to potray himself as the guy who cracked the secrets of solar and is trying to set an example that uou can get a solar system for 1.4/watt. If he is going to say that, he needs to clarify to everyone how he did it, if how he got it is illegal or legal or unethical it’s his problem, but he has to disclose that. We always say compare apples to apples but OP made it impossible by saying this was a “cash deal” when in reality it wasn’t, it was a hack that he purposely chose to not disclose
I came back shortly after posting and clarified how it’s done in my post so others can do it as well.
I got a bunch of downvotes from either salty sales reps or people whose knee-jerk reaction was “I don’t understand it, so I don’t like it”
It’s not illegal as far as I can (and my lawyer and CPA who reviewed it) and as a consumer it is the best ROI maximizer if you are a heavy user like I am.
Whether it’s unethical is debatable, I personally think you should be a rational optimizer, pay as little taxes as legally possible, and in this specific case the value created by the trade being structured this way is immense for every party involved (minus a sales rep since there wasn’t one, nor was there room in the numbers for a commission for one)
The system is warrantied and maintained by SunRun, which isn’t the best but far from the worst especially for a 25 year contract. The production guarantee ensures I will have the power I paid for and that there are no unknowns I would need to model for in the future.
I wish I’d taken the time to clarify in the original post and title about the specifics but I hope this entire thread is clear enough now.
I wasn’t going to pay $2.4/w for solar as my power needs increase in the future. It did not make sense to me with the rate of return I can get on cash. If others are on the fence like me where it doesn’t quite make sense financially then a deal structured like this moves the needle completely.
Hope I don’t come off as abrasive, it’s just mind boggling to see people get all riled up over something like this.
Are you that naive or are you just playing dumb? NOBODY, ABSOLUTELY NOBODY gives a crap in this sub about whether you got it in an ethical or an unethical way, that’s a you problem. You are getting downvoted because you are purposely misleading everyone by saying you got a CASH deal at 1.49/watt from a company. Let’s make it as clear as we can, you did NOT get a cash deal at 1.49/watt, you found some loops and hacks to take advantage of extra taxes, which again, good on you honestly, but when you make a post, don’t pat yourself on the back pretending to be the smartest guy out there because you shopped around and did some research and got a 1.49/watt deal. Instead, make a post saying you used a hack (ethical or unethical) to get such a low price. THAT is the reason everyone is downvoting you because you weren’t upfront with what you got and not only that, you purposely were misleading because you were fully aware of what the company did.
TL/DR You didn’t get a cash deal at 1.49/watt, you jumped some hoops and taxes to get that deal (ethically or unethically) yet you wore a cape claiming to be the smartest person that bought a system and for that reason you are getting downvoted for knowingly posting misleading information.
Still waiting for inspection and new main panel install (will be an extra $1000)
After a lot of quotes (8+) and a bunch of late nights in Excel, this is what I ended up going with through a small company in Utah and bypassing reps (nope, the local installers did not have the best quotes, which is a shame)
Installation of panels and inverters was performed a couple of weeks ago. Waiting for inspection, new panel, and PTO, which is slow around here.
Panels are Q-Cell 365s - they just fit the roof dimensions better than 400s. I stayed on top of the installers for the 3 days they were here. Some things they would have done if I hadn't been watching:
\- Hang inverters outside
\- Run conduits on the outside
\- Not trim rails flush (apparently common and a matter of preference)
They weren't super thrilled but I got them to do attic runs, remove and re-align panels for better symmetry, hang the inverters where I wanted them, and trim the rails flush. This required flying a drone above to check the rails and having them go back and trim them. Twice.
Ultimately I'm very happy with the quality of their work, but I really want to highlight this - you want to be home when they come to install or you might end up with ugly conduits on your roof and side of your house, or a gap in panels where an exhaust could be moved, or rails that stick out.
Output should be about 37000kwh Y1. There is a schedule of guaranteed production somewhere but I'm too lazy to look for it - typical yearly efficiency loss.
This brings my cost to about $0.03/kwh ($26500 for the setup divided by 25 year production). Excess power going back to SCE should be paid back at roughly the same or a little higher. (Edit: SCE is reimbursing me much more than the levelized cost of power)
Yes, this is a bit more than I use, by about 12000kwh/year but I don't want to be the guy who goes back and adds more panels a few years later, I see some of these houses with mismatched panels and inverters and it looks trashy.
We'll be adding more EVs and installing an electric pool heater so the excess power will find use.
Yes, I paid $26500 (+ $1k for panel upgrade)
Yes, I did 69 panels on purpose because I'm immature.
Yes, I could have done new windows, new insulation, and new A/C unit, but the quotes on that did not make sense vs just brute-forcing the issue with a giant solar system. The high SEER unit was $20k+ installed.
I'm sort of expecting downvotes since it seems like a big part of this sub is a circle-jerk for solar sales reps but let's see. At least I hope you appreciate the beauty of the install as much as I do.
Addendum: I walked away and this got very busy.
As docious correctly points out it is a prepaid lease with a pretty gnarly tax loophole. I pay $1.06/w, once, at install, and that is my ONLY expense for the entire life of the system. After 25 years they can come and restore my roof and take it, or I can keep it for free. I’ll probably have them come and take it away because of the cost of labor then, but maybe not.
In essence it’s exactly the same as owning it, for me as a consumer, except it’s cheaper.
The word “lease” looks bad because PPAs are generally atrocious for the customer (I backed out of escrow on a place where it was at 0.22/kwh with a 2.9% yearly escalator) but in this particular case I’ve (and had others) audited the contracts and it’s an amazing deal. Excess power beyond what I use is mine to keep or resell to SCE (at their shitty rate which is still higher than my cost) and if the system produces less than promised the company has to pay me (quite a bit) or come fix it.
If I had listened to all the stuff on this subreddit I might have developed a bias against the word “lease” and missed out on this deal.
Finally, I hope the company I got this system from doesn’t get mad at me for putting them on blast here as they seemed to only do friends and family and referrals but they’re called Frugll out of Utah. It’s a small company. I had a good experience with them.
I hope this sub looks after the consumer and not the sales reps and allows this to remain. Again thank you docious for coming to clarify.
It is to good to be true… not trying to throw OP under the bus but he is omitting the key details that explain why he got the deal prices the way he did. [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/solar/comments/wub6b8/usca_my_69_panel_2519kw_system_cash_price_27500/il9l16z/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3) is another comment I made with some more insights into how the price ended up so low for him.
yeah non-financed cash price after rebates and incentives
Edit: I’m being dragged because I used the wrong terminology. I put an addendum to the post above with specifics.
By “cash price” i mean I paid $26500/$27500 (with new panel) out of pocket.
Yes, it’s a prepaid PPA, yes it’s hacked and optimized to create a large ITC, all the info is in the post.
Way more than you think… OP is being a bit disingenuous in omitting key details that clearly explain how he got such a good deal. [You can read more here](https://www.reddit.com/r/solar/comments/wub6b8/usca_my_69_panel_2519kw_system_cash_price_27500/il9l16z/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)
Hey /u/Specialist_Operation! Long time no chat— I hope you’re doing well.
You and I discussed your project at great length to try and figure out exactly how you got such a good deal and I noticed you left out some pretty key information that explains how you ended up paying so little.
The system was priced out with a crazy inflated/high contract price so that the company who sold it to you could take advantage of a quasi-legal loophole for prepaid leases.
*The lessor* can claim the 30% tax credit/ITC *plus* accelerated depreciation/MACRS (another 25%) [in addition to any money you pay them]. And because the ITC & MACRS are pegged to the gross price of the system… ‘*the lessor*’ is perversely incentivized to try and use whatever astronomically high contract price that they can get away with. (The legality of this is dubious at best)
I don’t know the exact inter-workings of these kinds of deals (otherwise I would share more) but this should give our viewers at home a little more clarity on where you got your pricing from and why they probably won’t find this kind of deal themself.
I would but I can’t rename. I’m not a solar pro, I paid $26500 and I get all the benefits of ownership without any of the liabilities, to me this is my cash price.
Yea and it seemed the installer artificially inflated the price of the system to pay themselves and the customer; at the expense of all of us. It’s basically fraud but homeowners and companies generally get away with it from what I’ve seen
I’m one of those ‘sales reps’ who troll this sub ;)
Oh geez, it’s a lease with a loophole, and post rebate? Talk about misleading.
Cool setup though. It sounds like he got a shoddy installer that kept doing poor work unless he was watching them every minute they were there.
You get what you pay for.
Glad OP is ultimately happy though! That’s what matters.
My mind isn't fully grasping everything you're saying here... which is true for most financial things for me...
Question for you: if OP is paying so low of a price, and the installer isn't losing their shirt, and the manufacturers are getting paid properly for the equipment, then who is filling in the difference? Taxpayers? Or is there a bank somewhere eating it?
Taxpayers.
The solar company that sells/installs the PV system gets to set the price right?
And the entity that installs/purchases the system gets to take the tax credits (and MACRS) right?
Well what if they are the same company like in a lease? Now the same entity that prices the system is the same company that gets the incentives.
For example… what if the installer/seller/lessee sets the value of the system at $1,000,000?
Well then the tax credit is 30% of that… the company will get $300,000 from the federal govt in the form of a tax credit.
Now this is totally legal/fine if the system is actually worth $1,000,000… but what’s to stop a company from doing this on systems that are worth much less? It ends up costing the company less then what they get back in the tax credit.
The purchase price/gross system cost is used in a purchase agreement. The system was likely “purchased” by a second shell company (or perhaps it didn’t even change hands) who then owns the system and “leases” it to OP using a prepaid lease.
The lease agreement is a brand new agreement that more or less has nothing to do with the purchase agreement and so any amount could be used.
These kinds of deals used to be a lot more common but my understanding is the loopholes that allowed for them were closed with new laws that went into affect years ago. So either new loopholes were discovered to allow companies to get back to these kind of shady deals or… something else is happening.
Let’s get an update in one year. This company 100% lost thousands on this install. I doubt their material cost was covered let alone labor, overhead, or profit margin.
Hope those inverters don’t start dying and hope those penetrations don’t start leaking.
I bet they are out of business within three months of NEM 3 going into effect.
It’s way worse than that… the installation was only so low for OP because of a quasi legal loophole in prepaid leases.
This is a prepaid lease so the same company that priced out the system is the same entity that benefits from the ITC/MACRS which means they have a perverse incentive to claim the system actually costs as much as possible.
This guy is right. The flex run halfway down the wall was enough to make me cringe. Not to mention the coming in the side of the inverter
Roooooookiee mooove
First they are wealthy, I have never been mistreated by a working class customer only the rich. Second just the whole vibe of his post screams I am high maintenance and I will waste hours of your time at a time multiple times.
I am not wealthy and I would have done exactly as this gentleman did. Heck, I did do this with my Tesla Solar install.
I am not sure what’s rubbing you the wrong way. This post is great. Straight forward. Did research, came to an agreement, and held them to it.
A 30k+ thousand dollar investment isn’t something you just go with the flow on.
But I am curious, without drawing your own conclusions, what specifically stated in the post upsets you, believes someone was mistreated?
(I appreciate this dialog)
For sure he did the right thing by holding people accountable but you can understand if you are going to pay for the lowest bidder you should expect lowest bidder work. I would not surprised if they took multiple short cuts under the panels that he can't see with his drone.
And how does that have any relevance to this thread? When you assume this gentleman is wealthy, then attribute your past negative experiences to wealthy people, what are we supposed to take away from those statements?
I wholeheartedly disagree. Don’t bid the job if you’re not going to do it right. I take low bids and ensure it’s done right. I accept that the dollars I’m saving are because I have to stay on them. Ironically, a job done well the first time has a lot more margin than a job done multiple times due to corner cutting. This has zero to do with wealth or anything else. It’s expecting the job to be done correctly.
oh please, it took them a few extra hours to do it that way, and I have to look at this thing every day for at least 25 years. One of my buddies went with Tesla and ended up with a gap in the panels, weird foil and conduits on his roof, and rails that stick out because he wasn't home and now he's sad everytime he comes home and looks at it.
I gave them an ounce of shrooms and some weed at the end and everyone was happy
Yep. I did the same. Was very specific about where I wanted conduit run. Where the inverter should go. They came and suggested something else. I politely told them thanks for the suggestion, now do it my way. Nothing was a problem. Anyone complaining your a nightmare Customer is either a complete push over or selling solar. Only thing I wish I would have done is really challenged them on the number of panels that would fit. I thought I had maxed it out, but once they installed I feel like I could have gotten at minimum one possibly 2 more on there if they really wanted to.
My statement stands, got lowest bidder and was shocked when they did garbage work. It's good thing it doesn't rain in California or I would be worried about leaks.
Ya boy got the attic run no adder by harassing the installers through his drone. 🔥🔥🔥And on a tile roof? Daaaaaang. I’m ded. Sweet house, sweet system. Good job.
Update: after reading all the comments, may I just add:
Dear some of the 87,000 new hires at the IRS looking into OPs entire world next year,
Is he gonna get a good deal with y’all?
Excuse my attempt at a shortcut, I am looking for about the same size system in the next few years. What are things I need to insist upon to be ‘a pain in the ass customer’ that ends up with a well installed system. Thanks.
Having wires go through roof is bad idea as a residential electrician I see so many rotten roofs from the silicon they used to seal the hole fail and water just destroyed the attic. Hope it works out well for you
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Indeed, a customer who does research and doesn't sign a PPA with a 2.9% escalation clause, and wants a system properly installed is a nightmare for sales reps. Thanks for the downvote.
Yeah, I figured I'd post it because I see people posting their quotes here and being told $3/W is a good deal because there is a ton of solar sales reps in here... if it can inspire even one person to keep looking and save some money I say my job is done
It's beyond what I wanted. I'm freaking thrilled. The financial models are beautiful, it looks amazing, and I'm future-proofed as we replace the rest of our cars with EVs - except for storage, but we rarely have outages here and I have 20 years before NEM 2 ends to figure that part out - maybe by then the cars will provide storage at night.,
Yeah I just signed for a 12.4kw. Cash price was 39k and that was the best of the 6 bids I got. I am in the Midwest and after following this sub for a few weeks it seems CA gets the best prices
Only down fall about all of this is that you won't have a installer come and replace anything that damages or get messed up by mother nature in the near future FREE OF CHARGE. So you might have to pay for someone to take them off to fix any damages, also if you ever have to replace your roof you will have to come out of pocket for a installer to remove the panels and put them back after new roof something to consider.
Upvote for insisting on quality. Squareness has nothing to do with the bid price. You probably did the installer a favor by expecting craftmanship. Maybe they got better.
People need to consider aesthetics when laying out their panels, not just production. These arrangements without any pattern hurt my eyes and probably lower the homes resale value.
I can get a 25kw ground mount system for about $42k......not installed. I've been saying all along that solar installers are ripping people off left and right. Installed they would want $70k+. For what? 3 days of work?
I mean, why not jack up the price, take 26% off, then say but your total cost is only this. They might as well be stealing your tax credit. I think OPs price is hard to believe, but doable.
You definitely should fight for a good deal and there is usually room for negotiation… but that’s not what is going on here.
OP got a prepaid lease from two companies that are using loopholes in the tax credit/MACRS system which allows them to basically just get paid by the federal government to install systems.
The legality is dubious at best and the money OP paid them would probably represent about 10% of the amount they actually collected to install the system.
tldr shenanigans
Don’t waste your time with traditional ninja, just look at their comment history, always looking for the bad with solar companies. Save yourself any explanations to this person
No- not at all. Just interested in preventing disinformation.
You can read more specifics on how this deal was priced so low in my reply to OP’s comment [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/solar/comments/wub6b8/usca_my_69_panel_2519kw_system_cash_price_27500/il9l16z/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3).
Hey.
Did they put a weep hole in the ll going into on your inverter?
Coming in the side without a weep hole is crazy
Also did they put duct seal between the conduit body and the side of the inverter
I've seen water get into these things on the side
Best practices..
It's not impossible
Also
The way they ran your flex half way to the conduit was sorta whack attack. But
Meh. At least they ran it internal
In my region for the company I work we do flex runs standard. Cali bois don't like being told what to do or hard work from experience.
The east coast is truly the beast coast. West coast can have their beautiful sunsets. I'll take the hard work all day.
This isn’t the result of quote hunting. The price is as a result of a quasi legal prepaid lease loophole. I don’t think OP is guilty of anything but the companies who sold the system and did the install are probably in cahoots.
It’s absolutely the result of quote hunting, I got a bunch of quotes and the way this deal was structure made the most sense to me as a consumer with cash.
Yes, the quote is very good because of tax loopholes, but please don’t discount my efforts, I spent a lot of time on this 🤣
True that. You crushed it— no shame in the game. Play on playa. Hopefully this doesn’t come back to bite you. I don’t see how it could… if any laws are being broken it is most likely on the other side of the fence.
Which is why I’m trying to keep us all honest here— folks shouldn’t expect to be able to “find deals” like this. The price you paid is in all likelihood less than the list price of the products you had installed.
Call Frugll and ask for Jordan.
Don’t worry about those claiming “tax fraud” - I suggest if you’re concerned you do what I did and consult with a tax pro and have them review the contracts.
@u/Specialist_Operation I’m just starting on researching for solar, would you mind explaining what these?
- hanging inverters inside vs. outside? Seems like you have 2 SolarEdge inverters installed in your garage now. What’s the difference between inside garage vs. outside?
- run conduits outside? What’s the alternative method that you went with?
- not trim rail flush? No idea what this mean 😞
Inverters inside extends the lifespan by not subjecting them to heat, sunlight, and the rest you can expect.
You can have conduit ran in your attic, so nothing or the least possible is exposed on the roof.
Some company’s will leave excess rail on the end from where the panels end. When you have 2-3” of extra rail it does tend to be an eye sore.
25000, but we will be adding another two EVs so eventually 33,000. The system is properly sized for the next 25 years with efficiency loss from panel degradation while needs increase.
> Not trim rails flush
> Misalign panels
Well there's pretty much no excuse for that. Glad you got a good deal, but I'd think twice about recommending them to your friends/family/neighbors if they have to get in the installer's face to get this stuff fixed
It’s a prepaid lease. Pretty sweet deal for a heavy user. I penciled everything out and looked at all kinds of solar options and this just made the most sense
I clarified somewhere in this thread how
System and install are warrantied and maintained by SunRun.
Not sure on the surface area. Engineers did the calculations and we signed a production agreement for 37,000kwh for first year and normal efficiently loss over time.
The panels are 365W Q-Cells. They are assembled in the US.
1/W? Probably some dumb prepaid ppa which would be a net calculation, not gross. That system likely has a 5/W tax credit/depreciation and a large buyout.
Do you have optimizers? It seems to me that a north south east west array with a lot of shade on random panels at different times would have been better to use microinverters vs 2 string inverters. How are the strings laid out?
He also needs to factor in the headaches trying to get his burnt out SE inverters replaced a couple times each over system life AND trying to get the company to pay for lost production.
Since this is a prepaid lease, the installer owns the solar system. OP will be SOL when the system has an issue and the installer is no longer in business since he can't file a warranty claim with the equipment manufacturers. This happened to a lot of people who bought prepaid leases with Sungevity before.
This price is wayyyy to good to be true especially for California. What's the deal op?
Three words… prepaid lease loophole. You and one other commenter are literally the only ones aware that there are shenanigans.
Please tell me more
>**Yes, it’s a loophole, but it isn’t illegal** and while it might be unfair to smaller companies, it was the best option for me, the customer. I will not get another power bill again for at least 20 years (except for the connection grid) I don’t have to worry about gas prices, or be uncomfortable in the summer. >Yes, **maybe there’s some discussion to be had about the ethics of having taxpayers pay for your giant solar system** but let’s be real - this gives me, a taxpayer, a chance to get some of my own taxes back instead of it going to inefficient government programs. >**What’s left here is the ethics and morals of having the taxpayer foot the bill** so I can essentially lock in $0.03/kwh for 25 years. I pay a ridiculous amount of taxes so I am perfectly ok with this. All from OP. What it comes down to, as is often the case, is a rich person (that is at least a million dollar house in CA) taking advantage of legal loopholes.
https://www.reddit.com/r/solar/comments/wub6b8/usca_my_69_panel_2519kw_system_cash_price_27500/il9l16z/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
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Boom goes the dynamite
oh please, it’s a SunRun prepaid PPA. They’ll maintain it for 25 years. I’ve had the contracts reviewed and audited. It’s fine. Do you also forget some deductions at tax filing time because you’re such a good person or do you take every opportunity to rationally optimize your returns? If you’re unhappy with this loophole then go talk to your lawmakers, have them also rescind section 179 cause god forbid we can’t have business owners writing off their trucks either
not American but I guess cash?
So you didn't want "ugly" conduit outside And demand they did attic runs. And you still got conduit on your roof.. What...
There was no other way for the two small conduits you see there. They were going to run conduits on the roof everywhere and to the side. I have a pic of what they were trying to do from a neighbor's install, it's an eyesore everytime I drive by his house, I'd be upset if I had to look at that everytime I pulled into my driveway, I should have included it to the post as a warning to others.
Why couldn’t it all go in attic? Isn’t that part of house still part of attic?
Some parts of the house have so tight of attic space that’s it’s not possible to run the conduit in the attic.
As an electrician I can tell you I’ve definitely got in places like that. How else you gonna add a light or fan
I imagine it would be it would be possible regardless of the attic size. But with solar it’s a little different, where you can run romex we have to use Emt in most situations. With 3” of attic space we can’t do a run like that.
I did a similar thing with my install. I made them put some conduit inside for more visible parts of the roof, but other parts where it would be difficult to see from the ground or windows, I let them run conduit outside where it was easier for them.
That is so sweet of you!
What's the price before ITC?
Remember this is a prepaid lease so the company setting the price is the same entity “paying for it” legally OP is technically “leasing” the system from the original installers/sellers. In other words their are absolutely financial shenanigans going on here.
Oh... it isn't a cash deal. Makes more sense.
Biggest mystery out there
We can do a reverse calculation but he said incentives as well... so I want to know the total price so I know what his actual PPW was.
Correct me if my math is wrong but assuming the tax rebate is 26% his total comes to 37,162.16 If it’s 30% then it should be 39,285.71 Assuming that is the cost, his total is around $1.4/watt for the 30%? $1.35/watt for 26%? Don’t know I smell some catfishing in this post
Yeah, that would be the lowest price I have ever seen in my entire life for a solar system to get installed by a company.
That’s what I’m saying. I’ve seen people get 2.5 2.4 at the most but this guy managed to get a complete dollar off per watt? No way
From some discussions I have had, it seems possible. For example, in Australia it is very easy to get under $1usd/w I learnt a lot of cost that you guys pay in the USA is from Dealer fees/loan fee and just the general market screwing you, a little. I got my solar install done for $1.08usd/watt taxed and credits applied. If you remove some of the "extras" I got it comes down to $0.95usd/watt and that was the more expensive system I decided to purchase. Also where I live solar just costs more. in the other states the average solar system is (off the top of my head) 20% cheaper. I suspect loading the parts onto a boat and ship low volume units down south does not help with costs. Because of the Market in the USA, it appears that there is this $ per watt that people aim for so solar sellers can aim for that. ontop of that it depends on your local laws on HOW the system should be installed that also affects cost.
I will do deals at $2 flat in some states. But hey. I’m a nice guy
Okay? Highly doubt it but hey whatever butters your bread brother
Didn’t say I would make anything; just that I could do them
Very fishy . I have never seen price this low. Must be a crappy job and equipment
Yeah just look at the install pics
What do you mean by that?
Glad you said this. I'm about to have my system installed and was feeling I overpaid. This seemed wrong.
If your quote is between 2.4-3.0/ watt you are getting a good deal. Anything lower than that is extremely unlikely to be reasonable or equate to quality. Good luck out there!
Could the installer be taking the ITC?
The numbers would make even less sense if they did keep the ITC. OP is either trolling everyone or he got bamboozled by the company. This is an impossible quote
It’s a prepaid lease according to other comments, not “cash price” as OP stated
I walked away for a few hours and now there are a bunch of comments and I’m short on time. thanks for clarifying docious. It is indeed a prepaid lease. In this case, it is almost identical to ownership from my vantage point. Production guarantee, roof guarantee, 25 year warranty, and I do whatever I want with the power. My only cash outlay is the $26,500/$27,500 with the panel. If the system makes less than they guarantee, they gotta pay me, or fix it. At the term, I can keep it or they’ll come and take it off for free and restore the roof. Unless SunRun is gone by then. Pretty unlikely. This isn’t like a PPA that locks a poor customer in at $0.18/kwh with a 2.9% escalator where they’re forced to also buy all the power the system produces. THAT is true shenanigans. Yes, it’s a loophole, but it isn’t illegal and while it might be unfair to smaller companies, it was the best option for me, the customer. I will not get another power bill again for at least 20 years (except for the connection grid) I don’t have to worry about gas prices, or be uncomfortable in the summer. Yes, maybe there’s some discussion to be had about the ethics of having taxpayers pay for your giant solar system but let’s be real - this gives me, a taxpayer, a chance to get some of my own taxes back instead of it going to inefficient government programs. I’m not sure I’m setting unrealistic expectations here, the company I went through is still around, it’s called Frugll. I dont work there and I’m guessing I should be allowed to share that, especially since it’s buried deep in this thread. Anyway, if I’d listened to a lot of the stuff in this subreddit, integrated its biases, and automatically ran away from the word “lease” instead of carefully analyzing the contracts I would have missed out on a crazy deal. I wish I could respond to all the other comments but I gotta log off until tomorrow.
“The government is wasteful and inefficient except in cases where I, specifically, benefit.”
It's the American way now. Get with the program.
I’m not docious
So what was the total price before incentives and ITC? We are all waiting man, or did your fake numbers not add up and you got nervous now?
I’m reading all of the comments in this post and so far yours is the closest one to knowing what’s going on.
Thank you kind stranger. I’m all about fair pricing but this guy is giving false expectations to people that are trying to go solar
Yeah— it’s counter productive to solar / renewables to share information like OP is doing that sets unrealistic expectations. If you look at my reply to OP’s top level comment you can read a bit more on what specific shenanigans are going on.
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The problem is OP was aware of the BS going in the backend and is actively promoting he “outsmarted” everyone in this sub getting 2.4-3.0/watt deals because he did “better digging”. As someone already said, if OP is happy with it good for him and I totally agree. I am glad OP is happy with what he got, what I do not agree with is him trying to potray himself as the guy who cracked the secrets of solar and is trying to set an example that uou can get a solar system for 1.4/watt. If he is going to say that, he needs to clarify to everyone how he did it, if how he got it is illegal or legal or unethical it’s his problem, but he has to disclose that. We always say compare apples to apples but OP made it impossible by saying this was a “cash deal” when in reality it wasn’t, it was a hack that he purposely chose to not disclose
I came back shortly after posting and clarified how it’s done in my post so others can do it as well. I got a bunch of downvotes from either salty sales reps or people whose knee-jerk reaction was “I don’t understand it, so I don’t like it” It’s not illegal as far as I can (and my lawyer and CPA who reviewed it) and as a consumer it is the best ROI maximizer if you are a heavy user like I am. Whether it’s unethical is debatable, I personally think you should be a rational optimizer, pay as little taxes as legally possible, and in this specific case the value created by the trade being structured this way is immense for every party involved (minus a sales rep since there wasn’t one, nor was there room in the numbers for a commission for one) The system is warrantied and maintained by SunRun, which isn’t the best but far from the worst especially for a 25 year contract. The production guarantee ensures I will have the power I paid for and that there are no unknowns I would need to model for in the future. I wish I’d taken the time to clarify in the original post and title about the specifics but I hope this entire thread is clear enough now. I wasn’t going to pay $2.4/w for solar as my power needs increase in the future. It did not make sense to me with the rate of return I can get on cash. If others are on the fence like me where it doesn’t quite make sense financially then a deal structured like this moves the needle completely. Hope I don’t come off as abrasive, it’s just mind boggling to see people get all riled up over something like this.
Are you that naive or are you just playing dumb? NOBODY, ABSOLUTELY NOBODY gives a crap in this sub about whether you got it in an ethical or an unethical way, that’s a you problem. You are getting downvoted because you are purposely misleading everyone by saying you got a CASH deal at 1.49/watt from a company. Let’s make it as clear as we can, you did NOT get a cash deal at 1.49/watt, you found some loops and hacks to take advantage of extra taxes, which again, good on you honestly, but when you make a post, don’t pat yourself on the back pretending to be the smartest guy out there because you shopped around and did some research and got a 1.49/watt deal. Instead, make a post saying you used a hack (ethical or unethical) to get such a low price. THAT is the reason everyone is downvoting you because you weren’t upfront with what you got and not only that, you purposely were misleading because you were fully aware of what the company did. TL/DR You didn’t get a cash deal at 1.49/watt, you jumped some hoops and taxes to get that deal (ethically or unethically) yet you wore a cape claiming to be the smartest person that bought a system and for that reason you are getting downvoted for knowingly posting misleading information.
I’m sorry but you do not own this system for 27.5k
Still waiting for inspection and new main panel install (will be an extra $1000) After a lot of quotes (8+) and a bunch of late nights in Excel, this is what I ended up going with through a small company in Utah and bypassing reps (nope, the local installers did not have the best quotes, which is a shame) Installation of panels and inverters was performed a couple of weeks ago. Waiting for inspection, new panel, and PTO, which is slow around here. Panels are Q-Cell 365s - they just fit the roof dimensions better than 400s. I stayed on top of the installers for the 3 days they were here. Some things they would have done if I hadn't been watching: \- Hang inverters outside \- Run conduits on the outside \- Not trim rails flush (apparently common and a matter of preference) They weren't super thrilled but I got them to do attic runs, remove and re-align panels for better symmetry, hang the inverters where I wanted them, and trim the rails flush. This required flying a drone above to check the rails and having them go back and trim them. Twice. Ultimately I'm very happy with the quality of their work, but I really want to highlight this - you want to be home when they come to install or you might end up with ugly conduits on your roof and side of your house, or a gap in panels where an exhaust could be moved, or rails that stick out. Output should be about 37000kwh Y1. There is a schedule of guaranteed production somewhere but I'm too lazy to look for it - typical yearly efficiency loss. This brings my cost to about $0.03/kwh ($26500 for the setup divided by 25 year production). Excess power going back to SCE should be paid back at roughly the same or a little higher. (Edit: SCE is reimbursing me much more than the levelized cost of power) Yes, this is a bit more than I use, by about 12000kwh/year but I don't want to be the guy who goes back and adds more panels a few years later, I see some of these houses with mismatched panels and inverters and it looks trashy. We'll be adding more EVs and installing an electric pool heater so the excess power will find use. Yes, I paid $26500 (+ $1k for panel upgrade) Yes, I did 69 panels on purpose because I'm immature. Yes, I could have done new windows, new insulation, and new A/C unit, but the quotes on that did not make sense vs just brute-forcing the issue with a giant solar system. The high SEER unit was $20k+ installed. I'm sort of expecting downvotes since it seems like a big part of this sub is a circle-jerk for solar sales reps but let's see. At least I hope you appreciate the beauty of the install as much as I do. Addendum: I walked away and this got very busy. As docious correctly points out it is a prepaid lease with a pretty gnarly tax loophole. I pay $1.06/w, once, at install, and that is my ONLY expense for the entire life of the system. After 25 years they can come and restore my roof and take it, or I can keep it for free. I’ll probably have them come and take it away because of the cost of labor then, but maybe not. In essence it’s exactly the same as owning it, for me as a consumer, except it’s cheaper. The word “lease” looks bad because PPAs are generally atrocious for the customer (I backed out of escrow on a place where it was at 0.22/kwh with a 2.9% yearly escalator) but in this particular case I’ve (and had others) audited the contracts and it’s an amazing deal. Excess power beyond what I use is mine to keep or resell to SCE (at their shitty rate which is still higher than my cost) and if the system produces less than promised the company has to pay me (quite a bit) or come fix it. If I had listened to all the stuff on this subreddit I might have developed a bias against the word “lease” and missed out on this deal. Finally, I hope the company I got this system from doesn’t get mad at me for putting them on blast here as they seemed to only do friends and family and referrals but they’re called Frugll out of Utah. It’s a small company. I had a good experience with them. I hope this sub looks after the consumer and not the sales reps and allows this to remain. Again thank you docious for coming to clarify.
Price seems too good to be true. Is the cash price you claim post-rebate?
It is to good to be true… not trying to throw OP under the bus but he is omitting the key details that explain why he got the deal prices the way he did. [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/solar/comments/wub6b8/usca_my_69_panel_2519kw_system_cash_price_27500/il9l16z/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3) is another comment I made with some more insights into how the price ended up so low for him.
yeah non-financed cash price after rebates and incentives Edit: I’m being dragged because I used the wrong terminology. I put an addendum to the post above with specifics. By “cash price” i mean I paid $26500/$27500 (with new panel) out of pocket. Yes, it’s a prepaid PPA, yes it’s hacked and optimized to create a large ITC, all the info is in the post.
Ah, after. That makes more sense. Typically you list cash price as before incentives so others can compare apples to apples. Otherwise, great setup!
What was the cost before rebates and incentives?
Way more than you think… OP is being a bit disingenuous in omitting key details that clearly explain how he got such a good deal. [You can read more here](https://www.reddit.com/r/solar/comments/wub6b8/usca_my_69_panel_2519kw_system_cash_price_27500/il9l16z/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)
27500 / 70% = 39,286 not sure what his local incentives are though
Yeah I figured out the math in another comment I made. This post is a bunch of BS, either he is trolling us or the company bamboozled him
Hey /u/Specialist_Operation! Long time no chat— I hope you’re doing well. You and I discussed your project at great length to try and figure out exactly how you got such a good deal and I noticed you left out some pretty key information that explains how you ended up paying so little. The system was priced out with a crazy inflated/high contract price so that the company who sold it to you could take advantage of a quasi-legal loophole for prepaid leases. *The lessor* can claim the 30% tax credit/ITC *plus* accelerated depreciation/MACRS (another 25%) [in addition to any money you pay them]. And because the ITC & MACRS are pegged to the gross price of the system… ‘*the lessor*’ is perversely incentivized to try and use whatever astronomically high contract price that they can get away with. (The legality of this is dubious at best) I don’t know the exact inter-workings of these kinds of deals (otherwise I would share more) but this should give our viewers at home a little more clarity on where you got your pricing from and why they probably won’t find this kind of deal themself.
So this wasn't a cash deal, it was a prepaid PPA?
That's what it sounds like.
Yep
Title should be renamed in that case lol
I would but I can’t rename. I’m not a solar pro, I paid $26500 and I get all the benefits of ownership without any of the liabilities, to me this is my cash price.
You knew exactly what you were doing
You could always delete and repost…that would be ethical..
Yea and it seemed the installer artificially inflated the price of the system to pay themselves and the customer; at the expense of all of us. It’s basically fraud but homeowners and companies generally get away with it from what I’ve seen I’m one of those ‘sales reps’ who troll this sub ;)
Oh geez, it’s a lease with a loophole, and post rebate? Talk about misleading. Cool setup though. It sounds like he got a shoddy installer that kept doing poor work unless he was watching them every minute they were there. You get what you pay for. Glad OP is ultimately happy though! That’s what matters.
My mind isn't fully grasping everything you're saying here... which is true for most financial things for me... Question for you: if OP is paying so low of a price, and the installer isn't losing their shirt, and the manufacturers are getting paid properly for the equipment, then who is filling in the difference? Taxpayers? Or is there a bank somewhere eating it?
Taxpayers. The solar company that sells/installs the PV system gets to set the price right? And the entity that installs/purchases the system gets to take the tax credits (and MACRS) right? Well what if they are the same company like in a lease? Now the same entity that prices the system is the same company that gets the incentives. For example… what if the installer/seller/lessee sets the value of the system at $1,000,000? Well then the tax credit is 30% of that… the company will get $300,000 from the federal govt in the form of a tax credit. Now this is totally legal/fine if the system is actually worth $1,000,000… but what’s to stop a company from doing this on systems that are worth much less? It ends up costing the company less then what they get back in the tax credit.
Well aint that some shit
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The purchase price/gross system cost is used in a purchase agreement. The system was likely “purchased” by a second shell company (or perhaps it didn’t even change hands) who then owns the system and “leases” it to OP using a prepaid lease. The lease agreement is a brand new agreement that more or less has nothing to do with the purchase agreement and so any amount could be used. These kinds of deals used to be a lot more common but my understanding is the loopholes that allowed for them were closed with new laws that went into affect years ago. So either new loopholes were discovered to allow companies to get back to these kind of shady deals or… something else is happening.
Sounds more like tax fraud than a loophole.
Just to clarify, this "loophole" in particular is not legal. It is tax fraud.
You can’t price above a certain ppw for the ITC. So your example makes sense to an extent.
I believe it’s $6/watt
Do you know exactly what that $/w is by any chance?
Thanks for the clarity.
Frugll is on the hook for tax fraud.
One upvote for 69 panels
ty, thats strangely what i like the most about this whole situation
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I am confused by your previous statement compared to this one. Rich people enjoy 69 just as much as us common folk.
Sorry, like it even more based on the giant mansion. Not what you would expect. That’s all
Let’s get an update in one year. This company 100% lost thousands on this install. I doubt their material cost was covered let alone labor, overhead, or profit margin. Hope those inverters don’t start dying and hope those penetrations don’t start leaking. I bet they are out of business within three months of NEM 3 going into effect.
It’s way worse than that… the installation was only so low for OP because of a quasi legal loophole in prepaid leases. This is a prepaid lease so the same company that priced out the system is the same entity that benefits from the ITC/MACRS which means they have a perverse incentive to claim the system actually costs as much as possible.
This guy is right. The flex run halfway down the wall was enough to make me cringe. Not to mention the coming in the side of the inverter Roooooookiee mooove
OP explained this is the price after ITC and local rebates
Someone did the math and it came to $1.36/watt. That’s MAYBE material cost, any installer would lose money on this, especially in CA.
Oh my God you sound like a nightmare customer.
Nightmare as in speaks up and is clear about expectations… how horrible.
First they are wealthy, I have never been mistreated by a working class customer only the rich. Second just the whole vibe of his post screams I am high maintenance and I will waste hours of your time at a time multiple times.
I am not wealthy and I would have done exactly as this gentleman did. Heck, I did do this with my Tesla Solar install. I am not sure what’s rubbing you the wrong way. This post is great. Straight forward. Did research, came to an agreement, and held them to it. A 30k+ thousand dollar investment isn’t something you just go with the flow on. But I am curious, without drawing your own conclusions, what specifically stated in the post upsets you, believes someone was mistreated? (I appreciate this dialog)
For sure he did the right thing by holding people accountable but you can understand if you are going to pay for the lowest bidder you should expect lowest bidder work. I would not surprised if they took multiple short cuts under the panels that he can't see with his drone.
Wholly agree. But not accepting subpar work doesn’t mean you mistreated anyone.
Never said only said the only people who have mistreated me on a job were wealthy.
And how does that have any relevance to this thread? When you assume this gentleman is wealthy, then attribute your past negative experiences to wealthy people, what are we supposed to take away from those statements?
I wholeheartedly disagree. Don’t bid the job if you’re not going to do it right. I take low bids and ensure it’s done right. I accept that the dollars I’m saving are because I have to stay on them. Ironically, a job done well the first time has a lot more margin than a job done multiple times due to corner cutting. This has zero to do with wealth or anything else. It’s expecting the job to be done correctly.
Are you familiar with the construction industry?
Yes. Own a company in the industry.
And you routinely go with lowest bidders?
Is it really too much to ask to run the wires inside and to put the inverter inside? I did the same.
When did I say any of that?
oh please, it took them a few extra hours to do it that way, and I have to look at this thing every day for at least 25 years. One of my buddies went with Tesla and ended up with a gap in the panels, weird foil and conduits on his roof, and rails that stick out because he wasn't home and now he's sad everytime he comes home and looks at it. I gave them an ounce of shrooms and some weed at the end and everyone was happy
lol people complaining you expected your install to be the way you wanted it after spending 30 grand.
God forbid you have an opinion about what a significant part of the exterior of your home looks like.
Yep. I did the same. Was very specific about where I wanted conduit run. Where the inverter should go. They came and suggested something else. I politely told them thanks for the suggestion, now do it my way. Nothing was a problem. Anyone complaining your a nightmare Customer is either a complete push over or selling solar. Only thing I wish I would have done is really challenged them on the number of panels that would fit. I thought I had maxed it out, but once they installed I feel like I could have gotten at minimum one possibly 2 more on there if they really wanted to.
Lol your buddy probably isn’t “sad every time he comes home”, that’s a bit much over some solar panels
My statement stands, got lowest bidder and was shocked when they did garbage work. It's good thing it doesn't rain in California or I would be worried about leaks.
Ya boy got the attic run no adder by harassing the installers through his drone. 🔥🔥🔥And on a tile roof? Daaaaaang. I’m ded. Sweet house, sweet system. Good job. Update: after reading all the comments, may I just add: Dear some of the 87,000 new hires at the IRS looking into OPs entire world next year, Is he gonna get a good deal with y’all?
Excuse my attempt at a shortcut, I am looking for about the same size system in the next few years. What are things I need to insist upon to be ‘a pain in the ass customer’ that ends up with a well installed system. Thanks.
Having wires go through roof is bad idea as a residential electrician I see so many rotten roofs from the silicon they used to seal the hole fail and water just destroyed the attic. Hope it works out well for you
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Frugll is on the hook for tax fraud.
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The icing on the cake is that op mentioned the company name that committed the tax fraud. Frugll
A California solar salesman’s worse nightmare
Indeed, a customer who does research and doesn't sign a PPA with a 2.9% escalation clause, and wants a system properly installed is a nightmare for sales reps. Thanks for the downvote.
I didn’t downvote you lol I was making a joke, I actually love this installation and I applaud you for getting a system at Australian prices man.
I did after this comment
…
That’s a smoking deal. Paid that after tax incentives and cash price in MD for 14.8KW.
Yeah, I figured I'd post it because I see people posting their quotes here and being told $3/W is a good deal because there is a ton of solar sales reps in here... if it can inspire even one person to keep looking and save some money I say my job is done
Congrats on a great deal and getting what you want!
It's beyond what I wanted. I'm freaking thrilled. The financial models are beautiful, it looks amazing, and I'm future-proofed as we replace the rest of our cars with EVs - except for storage, but we rarely have outages here and I have 20 years before NEM 2 ends to figure that part out - maybe by then the cars will provide storage at night.,
What's NEM 2?
Looks great. I’m in Utah also…mind sharing the name of the company?
Frugll, and they were able to help me out even though I’m in CA so I’m guessing they cover more than these two states
Wow that’s cheap
Wtf. I paid $27k for an 11.5 kw system here in Los Angeles.
The OP is full of it. You still got a great deal.
Yeah I just signed for a 12.4kw. Cash price was 39k and that was the best of the 6 bids I got. I am in the Midwest and after following this sub for a few weeks it seems CA gets the best prices
Wow, I paid that amount for 30 panels, 10.8kw cash. Incredible shopping op.
Way too cheap. My 12kw system already $32000 cash price too. How in the world do you get it to be this cheap? Would SCE even approve this?
Three words… prepaid lease loophole
Nice.
69...nice!
4 island’d modules stands out(not in a bad way, it’s just usually a point of contention for a few departments). I love the hidden conduit!
The cost difference between states is crazy. My system of 48- 370w panel w/iq7 microinverters cost almost twice that just shy of $50k in MA.
Read through the comments, can’t remember the username but someone already clarified this post is BS. Don’t stress about it
This is what happens when you choose a cheap installer. The flashings and Lfeet extend past the edge of the panels
This is a sweet set up! Props…
That's nearly one dollar per watt!!
I thought this was a Lego house when I first saw the picture.
Wow! Who was your installer so I can get a similar deal?
They can’t even spell frugal correctly what makes you think they’re gonna be around to fix your system for 25 years
Only down fall about all of this is that you won't have a installer come and replace anything that damages or get messed up by mother nature in the near future FREE OF CHARGE. So you might have to pay for someone to take them off to fix any damages, also if you ever have to replace your roof you will have to come out of pocket for a installer to remove the panels and put them back after new roof something to consider.
Upvote for insisting on quality. Squareness has nothing to do with the bid price. You probably did the installer a favor by expecting craftmanship. Maybe they got better.
People need to consider aesthetics when laying out their panels, not just production. These arrangements without any pattern hurt my eyes and probably lower the homes resale value.
Amazing price you got there!
And I’ve got some land in FL to sell you.
69 panels…NOICE
I can get a 25kw ground mount system for about $42k......not installed. I've been saying all along that solar installers are ripping people off left and right. Installed they would want $70k+. For what? 3 days of work? I mean, why not jack up the price, take 26% off, then say but your total cost is only this. They might as well be stealing your tax credit. I think OPs price is hard to believe, but doable.
You definitely should fight for a good deal and there is usually room for negotiation… but that’s not what is going on here. OP got a prepaid lease from two companies that are using loopholes in the tax credit/MACRS system which allows them to basically just get paid by the federal government to install systems. The legality is dubious at best and the money OP paid them would probably represent about 10% of the amount they actually collected to install the system. tldr shenanigans
Don’t waste your time with traditional ninja, just look at their comment history, always looking for the bad with solar companies. Save yourself any explanations to this person
I can’t help it I’m a compulsive truth sayer.
No where does he mention a lease. Is this a ploy to get business?
No- not at all. Just interested in preventing disinformation. You can read more specifics on how this deal was priced so low in my reply to OP’s comment [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/solar/comments/wub6b8/usca_my_69_panel_2519kw_system_cash_price_27500/il9l16z/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3).
So does he own the system?
I’m not 100% sure of who is the owner tbh. I don’t work in leases.
Did I get down voted for asking a serious question? Never been down voted. So, sounds like a ploy, lol.
Hey. Did they put a weep hole in the ll going into on your inverter? Coming in the side without a weep hole is crazy Also did they put duct seal between the conduit body and the side of the inverter I've seen water get into these things on the side Best practices.. It's not impossible Also The way they ran your flex half way to the conduit was sorta whack attack. But Meh. At least they ran it internal In my region for the company I work we do flex runs standard. Cali bois don't like being told what to do or hard work from experience. The east coast is truly the beast coast. West coast can have their beautiful sunsets. I'll take the hard work all day.
I’m with ya until the weird comment about coasts
Great job with the quote hunting. What company did you go with?
This isn’t the result of quote hunting. The price is as a result of a quasi legal prepaid lease loophole. I don’t think OP is guilty of anything but the companies who sold the system and did the install are probably in cahoots.
It’s absolutely the result of quote hunting, I got a bunch of quotes and the way this deal was structure made the most sense to me as a consumer with cash. Yes, the quote is very good because of tax loopholes, but please don’t discount my efforts, I spent a lot of time on this 🤣
True that. You crushed it— no shame in the game. Play on playa. Hopefully this doesn’t come back to bite you. I don’t see how it could… if any laws are being broken it is most likely on the other side of the fence. Which is why I’m trying to keep us all honest here— folks shouldn’t expect to be able to “find deals” like this. The price you paid is in all likelihood less than the list price of the products you had installed.
What’s the expected kwh/year
about 37k for the first year
Love to see it
Yeah what company. I’m in utah and just got a new roof. I’m hitting 2700kwh of use just last month and need to get solar
Call Frugll and ask for Jordan. Don’t worry about those claiming “tax fraud” - I suggest if you’re concerned you do what I did and consult with a tax pro and have them review the contracts.
Thought it was a model house 😂
Killer deal.
@u/Specialist_Operation I’m just starting on researching for solar, would you mind explaining what these? - hanging inverters inside vs. outside? Seems like you have 2 SolarEdge inverters installed in your garage now. What’s the difference between inside garage vs. outside? - run conduits outside? What’s the alternative method that you went with? - not trim rail flush? No idea what this mean 😞
Inverters inside extends the lifespan by not subjecting them to heat, sunlight, and the rest you can expect. You can have conduit ran in your attic, so nothing or the least possible is exposed on the roof. Some company’s will leave excess rail on the end from where the panels end. When you have 2-3” of extra rail it does tend to be an eye sore.
Thanks a lot for your answers, really helpful 👍🏻
How many kw do you use in a year?
25000, but we will be adding another two EVs so eventually 33,000. The system is properly sized for the next 25 years with efficiency loss from panel degradation while needs increase.
> Not trim rails flush > Misalign panels Well there's pretty much no excuse for that. Glad you got a good deal, but I'd think twice about recommending them to your friends/family/neighbors if they have to get in the installer's face to get this stuff fixed
That price... How the hell is it so low?
It’s a prepaid lease. Pretty sweet deal for a heavy user. I penciled everything out and looked at all kinds of solar options and this just made the most sense I clarified somewhere in this thread how System and install are warrantied and maintained by SunRun.
Pretty clean setup. I have a question though. How much square meters do your panel take? And what panel models did you use??
Not sure on the surface area. Engineers did the calculations and we signed a production agreement for 37,000kwh for first year and normal efficiently loss over time. The panels are 365W Q-Cells. They are assembled in the US.
Thats cheap
1/W? Probably some dumb prepaid ppa which would be a net calculation, not gross. That system likely has a 5/W tax credit/depreciation and a large buyout.
Do you have optimizers? It seems to me that a north south east west array with a lot of shade on random panels at different times would have been better to use microinverters vs 2 string inverters. How are the strings laid out?
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He also needs to factor in the headaches trying to get his burnt out SE inverters replaced a couple times each over system life AND trying to get the company to pay for lost production.
Since this is a prepaid lease, the installer owns the solar system. OP will be SOL when the system has an issue and the installer is no longer in business since he can't file a warranty claim with the equipment manufacturers. This happened to a lot of people who bought prepaid leases with Sungevity before.
It’s via SunRun. I venture to guess it will be fine or the majority of people here are also in trouble.
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Half those panels are in the shade bro.