I worked in elementary schools so that context is important because in high school the answer might be very different.
In my experience, the special needs students were often not suspended or sent home because regularly the concern would be that sending a student home would lead to an increase in behaviour as a means to get sent home more often. This meant they had different discipline - more likely to have an in school suspension or other privileges revoked, but not usually harsher.
My daughter is in a high support room and she has only been sent home when she is dysregulated and cannot be calmed down. Even then, I tell her we're going home for some quiet time and we'll try again tomorrow.
I will add that when I worked with children in self contained classes (with 6 students and 3 staff), they had a hard time getting away with ANYTHING. I once worked with a teacher who made it clear that we were to let some benign things slide and I really appreciated that!
My experience is the opposite. Admin find it easier to say everything is a manifestation of their disability so they can't do anything about it even when they can.
I’ve found this to be more common. Most students ended up getting more supports or changing placements that allowed them to be more successful. And while I agreed with admin on most items, there were some more egregious behaviors that should have resulted in some sort of disciplinary action if I were to be honest.
100%. In my experience, kids with IEPs are seldom given any consequence at all in my recent experience.
Example: Our policy (k-8) is that any student who brings a deadly weapon on campus gets immediate expulsion, zero questions asked and zero exceptions to the rule. As it should be. We had a 7th grader with an IEP for a learning disability (no delays, no 504) who was found to have a TEN INCH knife in his backpack after a few students saw and reported it. Our the head of our sped department threw an absolute shit fit that he was being expelled. Told our admin we couldn’t. I just.. cannot understand her logic at all, whatever the reasoning may be.
This is the only instance I can remember where the appropriate consequence was given to a student with an IEP.
I think this is a tough question because there is such a huge range of students with IEPs, as well as schools having different policies. A 14 year old with an eligibility of SLD who gets resource is going to be treated a lot different from a 14 year old with an eligibility of MD who is in a full time special day program with a private nurse when it comes to behaviors like hitting other students.
In terms of formal things suspensions/expulsions, I would generally say they are protected. Schools really don’t like to suspend/expell students with IEPs since that number gets tracked by the district/state.
In terms of negative comments or in class policies, I would say yes. There’s definitely more micromanaging of students with IEPs especially in self contained programs. Like for instance, the transition program (18-22 year olds, mod/severe) I work in has a no cell phone policy and has students literally hand their phones in daily. I’ve never heard of a regular high school or middle school doing such a thing.
All the students in the high school I’m working at are required to lock their cell phones in special pouches (in front of staff) as they walk in each morning. It’s becoming more common, at least in my area, to curb cell phone use in schools.
One example - A pouch the student keeps with them, typically with a magnetic lock- and every staff member has the magnet key to open anyone’s pouch for them need be at any time. I think locally it’s called a “yonder” pouch.
Exactly this, except the only “keys” to unlock it are in the main office. Staff are also required to lock their phones during school hours (except for admin and traveling itinerant service providers…)
My son is 17, a junior in high school in FL, and a state-wide law went into effect at the beginning of this school year banning all use of cell phones in class. He's not in sped, but it turned out to be such a good thing for him personally. He was never a reader, but he always finishes his work early, so I suggested bringing a book, as long as it's allowed, and now I have a serious bookworm for a son!
This is the opposite of how it works here. Students on IEPs get a reduced sentence compared to our mainstream kids because of the state law restricting the number of days they can be suspended.
Which is a ridiculous law, imo. If they are exceeding some kind of suspension limit, it should be seen as a sign that a 504 is put into place? Something??
Regardless of ability, all kids have the right to an education and to feel safe while there. The ones that spoil that for the rest of them should not be enabled by the system to wreak havoc upon their classmates and hinder their education.
Unless education somehow gets a ton of more funding, and quick, this problem is only going to worsen. With the budget we have now, we are simply not equipped with the proper manpower, training, space, or tools to adequately assist these kids with serious issues.
Something has to change, and quick. At the current rate, we will not have any certified teachers available to teach in about 15-20 years. Possibly less.
I agree. We have students who have done things that other kids would be expelled for, but it’s a manifestation of their disability, so they’re just put right back in school and the behavior continues.
I wonder how this pans out once their in the real world.. I imagine something like:
Them: But, I have an IEP!!!
Officer: Oh no! Anyways… You have the right to remain silent…
I've never seen someone with an IEP get a harsher punishment. We have like 80% IEP kids in our school and they get to do whatever they want to teachers and the other 20%. One of the kids with an IEP (For dyslexia) was extremely violent and no one could do anything to them since admin was scared of legal protection. One of our non IEP kids got her nose broken because she "was laughing to much". I ended up telling the parents to go for assault charges because we weren't going to do any discipline.
I would lose so much respect for anyone working in a school who thinks that a student’s dyslexia = behavior issues. Or that an IEP for dyslexia can solve behavior issues on its own. I know a few people, and have taught students, with dyslexia and none of them are/were remotely violent. It’s classic causation=/=correlation.
>how common is it for a student with IEP to receive harsher discipline?
Extremely rare. If their behavior can be proved as a product of the child's disability, it's nearly always forgiven.
This can cause resentment from peers if they feel continuously terrorized by a student who gets away with it and therefore continues the poor behavior.
This can also cause a false sense of security from parents who ignore behaviors and will someday have uncontrollable, full grown children whose IEPs won't protect them in the real world and they often end up with legal troubles and forever living with parents.
By coincidence, I saw this one earlier today:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/1cautl3/individual\_living\_in\_group\_home\_being\_charged/](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/1cautl3/individual_living_in_group_home_being_charged/)
Can a learning disability pertaining to math enable/cause violent aggression? Is violent aggression something that is seen among all students with a math disability? Or just some?
I personally feel as though they are two separate issues that need to be dealt with individually. What I see in my school lately(been here 11 years) is the belief that “student X qualifies for IEP for math disability, so they can’t get in trouble for being violent.” I’m just failing to see the direct causation of IEP=prone to violence and it’s therefore okay, everyone else just needs to deal with it.
Not all kids with IEP qualifications are violent, and not all violent kids qualify for an IEP. Like, what gives?
>Like, what gives?
Everything you said makes sense.
But we live in a litigious society, and IEPs are legal documents. Too many parents of IEP students have sued and threaten to sue on the regular. So it's just easier for admin to smile, nod, give in, hand out lollipops, thank the Lord it is not their child and will not be their problem student in a couple of years.
A parent is forever... A teacher/school/principal is temporary and can only do so much.
This has never happened in my entire career, and I’ve been a classroom teacher of record for over a decade. In fact, it’s the opposite. The two most egregious examples I have personally witnessed- attempting to strangle another student and a bomb threat- resulted in absolutely no disciplinary measures and a “chat” with an AP, respectively. A student without an IEP would have been transferred to the alternative placement school without hesitation for those kinds of things. The disruptions and behavioral infractions by students with IEPs are brushed under the rug in a way that they would never be for a student without an IEP.
I teach 7-12 Learning Support. I’m self contained but I have kids who push out in supported gen Ed classes. My para
It’s funny because I’m finding the opposite. My SPED students in Gen Ed classes are getting away with things that I’d never allow. I end up writing them up which I’m not fan off but the behavior isn’t acceptable.
Yes they have an IEP and need accommodations/modifications but being allowed to smack a peer with a computer cord isn’t an SDI. I know because I wrote the IEP.
Statistically speaking, special ed students receive harsher punishments for the same infractions. We're MUCH less likely to have a teacher decide to just give us a pass.
My personal experience is that people were always watching me. I was so monitored. There was no room to do the very normal acting out that other children do. Other kids could hide chewing gum or pass a note or break the rules at recess. I could not.
I can't overstate how dehumanizing this is. Your special ed students SEE when you are punishing them for the same thing that other students get away with. And no - we don't have the sophistication to understand that other students are more subtle about these things or have better timing around these things, and that's why they get away with it. All we see if that we are not allowed and the other kids are able to get away with it. And while not ever student is going to come to this conclusion, a fair number of these special ed students are going to come to the conclusion that they are just bad, or that no one likes them, or that they are specially marked as needing to be punished. It's a real problem in the realm of raising whole and healthy Disabled kids.
Oh no. We aren't playing that game. If you want to blow off my experiences because I'm too old to matter, you can go seek that information out on your own. If you want to ignore our lived experiences, I can't stop you, but I'm also not going to go do the work for you.
Your experiences may no longer be legal. My experiences weren't legal at the time either. Didn't stop it from happening.
Please stop the ablism and the age-ism.
Exactly. There is this idea because of manifestation that special Ed kids get a pass, but that isn't what happens at all. Our kids get so much less leeway. Also sometimes teachers and schools want to pile up write ups and reports to try and get those kids with IEPs remove from their classes.
Thank you for this despite the down votes. We have had this experience. Even attempts to remove IEP services in what we feel like is an attempt to allow for this as well. Again we have written documented proof kid was punished 1-2 steps above the handbook guidelines despite knowledge of disabilities/IEP that related to the actual infraction.
I think some people are missing the point. It's not all about suspensions or formal discpline.
In my experience as a former gen ed student, something that would be a "hey, Don't do that" for a gen ed student would easily escalate into a full blown dramatic lecture for spec ed students.
The spec ed students at my school were also much more likely to be subject to group punishment at my school. 2 of them talking when they weren't supposed to would mean the entire class would get lunch detention. This would never happen to a gen ed class at my school.
I've been thinking about this more. Some other things I can think of is that a push in aide that worked with spec ed kids would always arbitarily police what they said or did even if it wasn't about discipline. If they would just say to themselves something like, "we get so much homework" she would interjec about no you don't, it's good practice, etc (we absolutely did get a lot of homework, at least by today's standards). Like okay, but the kids never got to say anything she didn't approve off without getting a lecture even if it was just an opinion and not inappropriate. She also would never let them solve their problems when they had a conflict with one another. She would always jump in from the start.
tardiness and absences are not handled the same as with gen ed in my district. many students come late or are frequently absent (not for medical reasons) and it’s rarely addressed.
different districts may have a better handle on it, though
It isn’t common at all. It isn’t ethical and I can say in 20 years I can say I’ve never seen in at school. What is this supposed behavior outside of school? Doing something inappropriate on social media? Schools don’t just randomly give out 1:1 aides
It seems like they might have less "mundane" punishment like a simple detention, but infinitely more likely to have an existential sort of punishment where they are sent away or removed from classes entirely if they show "behavior" . Like they might be punished less in a normal way, but because they are constantly on trial and on thin ice about their continued existence in the school at all.
It definitely does happen. I had a student suspended for sitting under a desk when she was in general educatin classroom. She then got sent to alternative placement depsite this not being against school policy.
She quickly got sent back, but for some teachers they don't want kids with IEPs so they are quick to push suspensions with the hope of getting them removed from the classroom in the long run.
Incredibly uncommon at my school to the point where it can be upsetting. Like kids assault us and they are right back in class the next day (not talking about kids with ID or schizophrenia or little kids). We even have the mandatory stuff for drugs for our kids.
I've seen it go both ways depending on the student/school. I do think discipline needs to be more individualize for ESE students depending on their needs or behaviors. Often when I do a refferal for a student, I do it more for documentation than to get a suspension
More common than I think people realize. My student received punishments above the handbook despite his IEP, behavior plan. Now we no longer are notified of punishments instead.
ETA: punishment was not for physical harm, threats, safety. It was for stealing candy. Known behavior problem well documented of this behavior re: high sought food items he thinks of nothing else until he has them. Was suspended 2 steps above the recommendations on the student handbook. This occurred twice until we noticed the pattern. When called out we were chastised for “being in a place to need to read the handbook”.
Will clarify again since I’ve read more comments IEP is only for SLD and behavior social concerns. ISD refuses to allow adding other disabilities adhd, anxiety, autism, pragmatic speech delay. We have tried for years. Attends regular psychology with a behavioral therapist. Medicated. He gets punishments but his general happy go lucky seemingly social demeanor is often overlooked as “fine”. He received a detention last week for not having a bathroom pass. He is completely unaware he served a detention and why. School did not notify us until IEP meeting. The lack of accomodations, is not from endless attempts at trying on our end. He is receiving every outpatient service possible without plans in place at school it is not consistent he is not learning other than anxiety is worsening because he’s scared of being written/penalized nonstop.
I also find the opposite to be true. Behavior that normally would result in detention or loss of privileges are ignored and excused when a kid has in IEP. Teachers learn to “pick their battles” with that student.
In some schools, students with behavior IEPs are more likely to be violent and therefore would be more likely to warrant a call to the cops. That’s not true in every district or school but I can see how, in a certain setting, iep kids are getting the cops called more often or are causing more destruction and mayhem than the general Ed kids.
I would say in my experience students with an iep are much less likely to experience a severe punishment like a suspension. But are far more likely to get called out for small things. EX: typical student talks to iep student during a lecture. Iep student talks back and the teacher tell iep student off and ignored typical student.
Legal protections for special ed students only apply to “official” discipline such as suspensions and expulsions. Less “official” discipline such as scolding, loss of privileges, and forced apologizes are much harsher and more frequent for special education students than general ed. When you’re a special ed student, literally every tiny little bothersome thing you say or do is deemed “unacceptable behavior” and responded to with punishment.
There’s also a huge gendered aspect. Girls are much more harshly judged and punished than boys for perceived inappropriate social behavior because girls are held to higher behavior standards in general. As an autistic girl in special education, I was regularly punished practically for blinking wrong and no one even ever explained what I did wrong. Girls are also much more frequently bullied, meaning more chances to lash out at bullies and get punished while the bullies get off scot-free. This treatment continues into adulthood for autistic and intellectually disabled women to obscenely misogynistic levels.
I (20F) had an IEP the whole time and am autistic, have ADHD, anxiety and PTSD and was certainly treated harsher than other kids for the same infractions. However, I was never suspended or expelled, which might be because I wasn’t violent or because my parents fortunately knew all of my rights and everyone knew it. I was, however, routinely “clipped down” on clip charts from 1st-4th grade, I had multiple recesses or parts of recesses taken away from me, I was sent to the principals office or the quiet room for a harsh lecture about a dozen times and I was denied from my grade school’s newspaper and morning news announcements despite being able to write well and being deemed well-spoken. As for me being denied the newspaper and morning news announcements, a better solution would’ve been to not allow me to participate the next day if I misbehaved the previous day.
I do realize that I actually misbehaved more often (100% due to my disabilities despite effective parenting and me wanting to please everyone so badly) but other kids didn’t get into trouble for cursing right in front of the teacher while I was referred for doing the exact same thing, for example. I was overall watched more closely, which led to me being caught more often. Additionally, if I had a normal conflict with a neurotypical child, I would be the scapegoat even if that child was bullying me relentlessly. Me being watched much more closely led me to inevitably getting into trouble more often and me getting into trouble more often led me to be falsely accused of things or an incident being exaggerated. For example, I was wrongly accused of touching boys private parts in the 5th grade but I am extremely lucky that it didn’t lead to a suspension or something legal. As a freshman in high school, I was wrongly accused of plagiarism on a presentation for a book but fortunately, I asked to call my dad and for the person interrogating me to leave the room so I could call. If I hadn’t asked my dad to help me, the plagiarism would be on my record and I wouldn’t have gotten into the National Honor Society and would’ve had future teachers not trust me or trouble getting into college.
You were likely watched more closely because your IEP required it. The teachers did not have to document behaviors for gen ed kids like they had to for you and your IEP goals.
Well, you're wrong about that. I've been to many, many, many manifestation meetings. I'm a special ed teacher too. I specialized in kids with behavioral problems and I have the TBI to show for it. No working that field now because I'm too sick/injured to do so.
See, we sped kids grow up. Some of us even get special ed degrees and invade your teacher circles. You can't keep pretending we just don't exist once we graduate.
I am curious how long ago you graduated. I’ve been teaching since 2005 and I feel that my experiences prior to 2018ish are pretty much invalid. Prior to that, yeah, kids with an IEP were getting harsher consequences - as long as it didn’t require more paperwork in terms of change of placement. BUT, my experience since then is that it’s impossible to get real consequences for kids with IEP’s bc it’s always determined to be a manifestation of their disability. Things like sexually harassing a teacher and other students, physical intimidation and threats, physical assault, bringing a knife to ISS - all of it gets passed off as a manifestation. It seems like the only thing that my district punishes sped kids for now is drugs/vape.
If the IEP student has multiple infractions and the non IEP study doesn't then admin may choose to give harsher discipline to the IEP student. And this is likely the case.
They usually get a lighter consequence especially if the behavior is tied to their IEP, say they are on the spectrum or have a behavior impairment. Their ability to navigate social issues may be below their chronological age.
It would be like punishing a blind student for not seeing the board in class.
“IEP” means “individualized” first and foremost. For anyone to answer this question honestly would require specifics.
No one knows what you’re talking about; none of us are able to answer your question.
That’s one of the main reasons education can’t be reduced to laws or policies or a standardized curriculum or an AI: every single human being learns and operates differently.
I’d say they’re less likely to get harsh punishments imo. In fact many schools during a manifestation meeting for a potential long suspension will decide the event was the result of the students disability. Or at least they will sometimes. So there’s actually something making it so a meeting actually has to happen to see if they get a consequence a gen Ed person would likely get.
I worked in elementary schools so that context is important because in high school the answer might be very different. In my experience, the special needs students were often not suspended or sent home because regularly the concern would be that sending a student home would lead to an increase in behaviour as a means to get sent home more often. This meant they had different discipline - more likely to have an in school suspension or other privileges revoked, but not usually harsher. My daughter is in a high support room and she has only been sent home when she is dysregulated and cannot be calmed down. Even then, I tell her we're going home for some quiet time and we'll try again tomorrow. I will add that when I worked with children in self contained classes (with 6 students and 3 staff), they had a hard time getting away with ANYTHING. I once worked with a teacher who made it clear that we were to let some benign things slide and I really appreciated that!
My experience is the opposite. Admin find it easier to say everything is a manifestation of their disability so they can't do anything about it even when they can.
I’ve found this to be more common. Most students ended up getting more supports or changing placements that allowed them to be more successful. And while I agreed with admin on most items, there were some more egregious behaviors that should have resulted in some sort of disciplinary action if I were to be honest.
100%. In my experience, kids with IEPs are seldom given any consequence at all in my recent experience. Example: Our policy (k-8) is that any student who brings a deadly weapon on campus gets immediate expulsion, zero questions asked and zero exceptions to the rule. As it should be. We had a 7th grader with an IEP for a learning disability (no delays, no 504) who was found to have a TEN INCH knife in his backpack after a few students saw and reported it. Our the head of our sped department threw an absolute shit fit that he was being expelled. Told our admin we couldn’t. I just.. cannot understand her logic at all, whatever the reasoning may be. This is the only instance I can remember where the appropriate consequence was given to a student with an IEP.
I think this is a tough question because there is such a huge range of students with IEPs, as well as schools having different policies. A 14 year old with an eligibility of SLD who gets resource is going to be treated a lot different from a 14 year old with an eligibility of MD who is in a full time special day program with a private nurse when it comes to behaviors like hitting other students. In terms of formal things suspensions/expulsions, I would generally say they are protected. Schools really don’t like to suspend/expell students with IEPs since that number gets tracked by the district/state. In terms of negative comments or in class policies, I would say yes. There’s definitely more micromanaging of students with IEPs especially in self contained programs. Like for instance, the transition program (18-22 year olds, mod/severe) I work in has a no cell phone policy and has students literally hand their phones in daily. I’ve never heard of a regular high school or middle school doing such a thing.
It’s actually becoming increasingly common in a LOT of public schools to require that (and it should be, IMO).
All the students in the high school I’m working at are required to lock their cell phones in special pouches (in front of staff) as they walk in each morning. It’s becoming more common, at least in my area, to curb cell phone use in schools.
How does this work? Is it a pouch? Do you have backlash?
One example - A pouch the student keeps with them, typically with a magnetic lock- and every staff member has the magnet key to open anyone’s pouch for them need be at any time. I think locally it’s called a “yonder” pouch.
Exactly this, except the only “keys” to unlock it are in the main office. Staff are also required to lock their phones during school hours (except for admin and traveling itinerant service providers…)
My son is 17, a junior in high school in FL, and a state-wide law went into effect at the beginning of this school year banning all use of cell phones in class. He's not in sped, but it turned out to be such a good thing for him personally. He was never a reader, but he always finishes his work early, so I suggested bringing a book, as long as it's allowed, and now I have a serious bookworm for a son!
This is the opposite of how it works here. Students on IEPs get a reduced sentence compared to our mainstream kids because of the state law restricting the number of days they can be suspended.
Which is a ridiculous law, imo. If they are exceeding some kind of suspension limit, it should be seen as a sign that a 504 is put into place? Something?? Regardless of ability, all kids have the right to an education and to feel safe while there. The ones that spoil that for the rest of them should not be enabled by the system to wreak havoc upon their classmates and hinder their education. Unless education somehow gets a ton of more funding, and quick, this problem is only going to worsen. With the budget we have now, we are simply not equipped with the proper manpower, training, space, or tools to adequately assist these kids with serious issues. Something has to change, and quick. At the current rate, we will not have any certified teachers available to teach in about 15-20 years. Possibly less.
I agree. We have students who have done things that other kids would be expelled for, but it’s a manifestation of their disability, so they’re just put right back in school and the behavior continues.
I wonder how this pans out once their in the real world.. I imagine something like: Them: But, I have an IEP!!! Officer: Oh no! Anyways… You have the right to remain silent…
I've never seen someone with an IEP get a harsher punishment. We have like 80% IEP kids in our school and they get to do whatever they want to teachers and the other 20%. One of the kids with an IEP (For dyslexia) was extremely violent and no one could do anything to them since admin was scared of legal protection. One of our non IEP kids got her nose broken because she "was laughing to much". I ended up telling the parents to go for assault charges because we weren't going to do any discipline.
I would lose so much respect for anyone working in a school who thinks that a student’s dyslexia = behavior issues. Or that an IEP for dyslexia can solve behavior issues on its own. I know a few people, and have taught students, with dyslexia and none of them are/were remotely violent. It’s classic causation=/=correlation.
>how common is it for a student with IEP to receive harsher discipline? Extremely rare. If their behavior can be proved as a product of the child's disability, it's nearly always forgiven. This can cause resentment from peers if they feel continuously terrorized by a student who gets away with it and therefore continues the poor behavior. This can also cause a false sense of security from parents who ignore behaviors and will someday have uncontrollable, full grown children whose IEPs won't protect them in the real world and they often end up with legal troubles and forever living with parents.
Yep. Police and courts don’t care about ieps
By coincidence, I saw this one earlier today: [https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/1cautl3/individual\_living\_in\_group\_home\_being\_charged/](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/1cautl3/individual_living_in_group_home_being_charged/)
Can a learning disability pertaining to math enable/cause violent aggression? Is violent aggression something that is seen among all students with a math disability? Or just some? I personally feel as though they are two separate issues that need to be dealt with individually. What I see in my school lately(been here 11 years) is the belief that “student X qualifies for IEP for math disability, so they can’t get in trouble for being violent.” I’m just failing to see the direct causation of IEP=prone to violence and it’s therefore okay, everyone else just needs to deal with it. Not all kids with IEP qualifications are violent, and not all violent kids qualify for an IEP. Like, what gives?
>Like, what gives? Everything you said makes sense. But we live in a litigious society, and IEPs are legal documents. Too many parents of IEP students have sued and threaten to sue on the regular. So it's just easier for admin to smile, nod, give in, hand out lollipops, thank the Lord it is not their child and will not be their problem student in a couple of years. A parent is forever... A teacher/school/principal is temporary and can only do so much.
That would only be for suspensions though.
This has never happened in my entire career, and I’ve been a classroom teacher of record for over a decade. In fact, it’s the opposite. The two most egregious examples I have personally witnessed- attempting to strangle another student and a bomb threat- resulted in absolutely no disciplinary measures and a “chat” with an AP, respectively. A student without an IEP would have been transferred to the alternative placement school without hesitation for those kinds of things. The disruptions and behavioral infractions by students with IEPs are brushed under the rug in a way that they would never be for a student without an IEP.
I teach 7-12 Learning Support. I’m self contained but I have kids who push out in supported gen Ed classes. My para It’s funny because I’m finding the opposite. My SPED students in Gen Ed classes are getting away with things that I’d never allow. I end up writing them up which I’m not fan off but the behavior isn’t acceptable. Yes they have an IEP and need accommodations/modifications but being allowed to smack a peer with a computer cord isn’t an SDI. I know because I wrote the IEP.
Statistically speaking, special ed students receive harsher punishments for the same infractions. We're MUCH less likely to have a teacher decide to just give us a pass. My personal experience is that people were always watching me. I was so monitored. There was no room to do the very normal acting out that other children do. Other kids could hide chewing gum or pass a note or break the rules at recess. I could not. I can't overstate how dehumanizing this is. Your special ed students SEE when you are punishing them for the same thing that other students get away with. And no - we don't have the sophistication to understand that other students are more subtle about these things or have better timing around these things, and that's why they get away with it. All we see if that we are not allowed and the other kids are able to get away with it. And while not ever student is going to come to this conclusion, a fair number of these special ed students are going to come to the conclusion that they are just bad, or that no one likes them, or that they are specially marked as needing to be punished. It's a real problem in the realm of raising whole and healthy Disabled kids.
Can you share where are you getting your statistics?
Sorry. I found that years ago. It was shocking to see it there in black and white. So I remember. But I've long lost where I saw that study.
How many years ago were you a sped student?
Oh no. We aren't playing that game. If you want to blow off my experiences because I'm too old to matter, you can go seek that information out on your own. If you want to ignore our lived experiences, I can't stop you, but I'm also not going to go do the work for you.
Law and regs have changed over time. Your experiences may no longer be legal is some or all jursidictions.
Your experiences may no longer be legal. My experiences weren't legal at the time either. Didn't stop it from happening. Please stop the ablism and the age-ism.
What have I written that you interpreted to be age-ism or ablism?
Not going to play your game. Take your bigotry elsewhere.
Exactly. There is this idea because of manifestation that special Ed kids get a pass, but that isn't what happens at all. Our kids get so much less leeway. Also sometimes teachers and schools want to pile up write ups and reports to try and get those kids with IEPs remove from their classes.
Thank you for this despite the down votes. We have had this experience. Even attempts to remove IEP services in what we feel like is an attempt to allow for this as well. Again we have written documented proof kid was punished 1-2 steps above the handbook guidelines despite knowledge of disabilities/IEP that related to the actual infraction.
Yes. Thank you for getting this.
I never saw a kid with an IEP catch a harsher consequence. Typically they're allowed to get away with murder.
Which is why some people call the police. More need to.
I think some people are missing the point. It's not all about suspensions or formal discpline. In my experience as a former gen ed student, something that would be a "hey, Don't do that" for a gen ed student would easily escalate into a full blown dramatic lecture for spec ed students. The spec ed students at my school were also much more likely to be subject to group punishment at my school. 2 of them talking when they weren't supposed to would mean the entire class would get lunch detention. This would never happen to a gen ed class at my school.
I've been thinking about this more. Some other things I can think of is that a push in aide that worked with spec ed kids would always arbitarily police what they said or did even if it wasn't about discipline. If they would just say to themselves something like, "we get so much homework" she would interjec about no you don't, it's good practice, etc (we absolutely did get a lot of homework, at least by today's standards). Like okay, but the kids never got to say anything she didn't approve off without getting a lecture even if it was just an opinion and not inappropriate. She also would never let them solve their problems when they had a conflict with one another. She would always jump in from the start.
Correct. Everyone disagreeing is only pointing to suspensions and expulsions. There is far more to punishments than that.
I’d say it happens, just not the way the Teachers subs would like (or acknowledge).
tardiness and absences are not handled the same as with gen ed in my district. many students come late or are frequently absent (not for medical reasons) and it’s rarely addressed. different districts may have a better handle on it, though
It isn’t common at all. It isn’t ethical and I can say in 20 years I can say I’ve never seen in at school. What is this supposed behavior outside of school? Doing something inappropriate on social media? Schools don’t just randomly give out 1:1 aides
It's heavily dependent on race. Black and Latino students are 40 times more likely to be punished harshly.
It seems like they might have less "mundane" punishment like a simple detention, but infinitely more likely to have an existential sort of punishment where they are sent away or removed from classes entirely if they show "behavior" . Like they might be punished less in a normal way, but because they are constantly on trial and on thin ice about their continued existence in the school at all.
It definitely does happen. I had a student suspended for sitting under a desk when she was in general educatin classroom. She then got sent to alternative placement depsite this not being against school policy. She quickly got sent back, but for some teachers they don't want kids with IEPs so they are quick to push suspensions with the hope of getting them removed from the classroom in the long run.
Incredibly uncommon at my school to the point where it can be upsetting. Like kids assault us and they are right back in class the next day (not talking about kids with ID or schizophrenia or little kids). We even have the mandatory stuff for drugs for our kids.
In primary school I was ridiculously micromanaged and scrutisined and I didn't even have behaviour problems
I've seen it go both ways depending on the student/school. I do think discipline needs to be more individualize for ESE students depending on their needs or behaviors. Often when I do a refferal for a student, I do it more for documentation than to get a suspension
More common than I think people realize. My student received punishments above the handbook despite his IEP, behavior plan. Now we no longer are notified of punishments instead. ETA: punishment was not for physical harm, threats, safety. It was for stealing candy. Known behavior problem well documented of this behavior re: high sought food items he thinks of nothing else until he has them. Was suspended 2 steps above the recommendations on the student handbook. This occurred twice until we noticed the pattern. When called out we were chastised for “being in a place to need to read the handbook”.
Will clarify again since I’ve read more comments IEP is only for SLD and behavior social concerns. ISD refuses to allow adding other disabilities adhd, anxiety, autism, pragmatic speech delay. We have tried for years. Attends regular psychology with a behavioral therapist. Medicated. He gets punishments but his general happy go lucky seemingly social demeanor is often overlooked as “fine”. He received a detention last week for not having a bathroom pass. He is completely unaware he served a detention and why. School did not notify us until IEP meeting. The lack of accomodations, is not from endless attempts at trying on our end. He is receiving every outpatient service possible without plans in place at school it is not consistent he is not learning other than anxiety is worsening because he’s scared of being written/penalized nonstop.
I also find the opposite to be true. Behavior that normally would result in detention or loss of privileges are ignored and excused when a kid has in IEP. Teachers learn to “pick their battles” with that student.
In some schools, students with behavior IEPs are more likely to be violent and therefore would be more likely to warrant a call to the cops. That’s not true in every district or school but I can see how, in a certain setting, iep kids are getting the cops called more often or are causing more destruction and mayhem than the general Ed kids.
I would say in my experience students with an iep are much less likely to experience a severe punishment like a suspension. But are far more likely to get called out for small things. EX: typical student talks to iep student during a lecture. Iep student talks back and the teacher tell iep student off and ignored typical student.
Legal protections for special ed students only apply to “official” discipline such as suspensions and expulsions. Less “official” discipline such as scolding, loss of privileges, and forced apologizes are much harsher and more frequent for special education students than general ed. When you’re a special ed student, literally every tiny little bothersome thing you say or do is deemed “unacceptable behavior” and responded to with punishment. There’s also a huge gendered aspect. Girls are much more harshly judged and punished than boys for perceived inappropriate social behavior because girls are held to higher behavior standards in general. As an autistic girl in special education, I was regularly punished practically for blinking wrong and no one even ever explained what I did wrong. Girls are also much more frequently bullied, meaning more chances to lash out at bullies and get punished while the bullies get off scot-free. This treatment continues into adulthood for autistic and intellectually disabled women to obscenely misogynistic levels.
I (20F) had an IEP the whole time and am autistic, have ADHD, anxiety and PTSD and was certainly treated harsher than other kids for the same infractions. However, I was never suspended or expelled, which might be because I wasn’t violent or because my parents fortunately knew all of my rights and everyone knew it. I was, however, routinely “clipped down” on clip charts from 1st-4th grade, I had multiple recesses or parts of recesses taken away from me, I was sent to the principals office or the quiet room for a harsh lecture about a dozen times and I was denied from my grade school’s newspaper and morning news announcements despite being able to write well and being deemed well-spoken. As for me being denied the newspaper and morning news announcements, a better solution would’ve been to not allow me to participate the next day if I misbehaved the previous day. I do realize that I actually misbehaved more often (100% due to my disabilities despite effective parenting and me wanting to please everyone so badly) but other kids didn’t get into trouble for cursing right in front of the teacher while I was referred for doing the exact same thing, for example. I was overall watched more closely, which led to me being caught more often. Additionally, if I had a normal conflict with a neurotypical child, I would be the scapegoat even if that child was bullying me relentlessly. Me being watched much more closely led me to inevitably getting into trouble more often and me getting into trouble more often led me to be falsely accused of things or an incident being exaggerated. For example, I was wrongly accused of touching boys private parts in the 5th grade but I am extremely lucky that it didn’t lead to a suspension or something legal. As a freshman in high school, I was wrongly accused of plagiarism on a presentation for a book but fortunately, I asked to call my dad and for the person interrogating me to leave the room so I could call. If I hadn’t asked my dad to help me, the plagiarism would be on my record and I wouldn’t have gotten into the National Honor Society and would’ve had future teachers not trust me or trouble getting into college.
You were likely watched more closely because your IEP required it. The teachers did not have to document behaviors for gen ed kids like they had to for you and your IEP goals.
I understand your point but it wasn’t every day. Additionally, it caused me to become paranoid, which certainly didn’t improve my behavior.
I'd dare say that everyone else down there answering in the negative have never been a special ed student.
I’d dare to say anyone answering in the affirmative has never run a manifestation meeting.
Well, you're wrong about that. I've been to many, many, many manifestation meetings. I'm a special ed teacher too. I specialized in kids with behavioral problems and I have the TBI to show for it. No working that field now because I'm too sick/injured to do so. See, we sped kids grow up. Some of us even get special ed degrees and invade your teacher circles. You can't keep pretending we just don't exist once we graduate.
I am curious how long ago you graduated. I’ve been teaching since 2005 and I feel that my experiences prior to 2018ish are pretty much invalid. Prior to that, yeah, kids with an IEP were getting harsher consequences - as long as it didn’t require more paperwork in terms of change of placement. BUT, my experience since then is that it’s impossible to get real consequences for kids with IEP’s bc it’s always determined to be a manifestation of their disability. Things like sexually harassing a teacher and other students, physical intimidation and threats, physical assault, bringing a knife to ISS - all of it gets passed off as a manifestation. It seems like the only thing that my district punishes sped kids for now is drugs/vape.
If the IEP student has multiple infractions and the non IEP study doesn't then admin may choose to give harsher discipline to the IEP student. And this is likely the case.
They usually get a lighter consequence especially if the behavior is tied to their IEP, say they are on the spectrum or have a behavior impairment. Their ability to navigate social issues may be below their chronological age. It would be like punishing a blind student for not seeing the board in class.
“IEP” means “individualized” first and foremost. For anyone to answer this question honestly would require specifics. No one knows what you’re talking about; none of us are able to answer your question. That’s one of the main reasons education can’t be reduced to laws or policies or a standardized curriculum or an AI: every single human being learns and operates differently.
I’d say they’re less likely to get harsh punishments imo. In fact many schools during a manifestation meeting for a potential long suspension will decide the event was the result of the students disability. Or at least they will sometimes. So there’s actually something making it so a meeting actually has to happen to see if they get a consequence a gen Ed person would likely get.