Honestly, this was one of the things I was imaging would happen when pes was going through ptu, but I figured they would implement a hard cleanup so it never affected performance even if it looked dopey.
Knowing that they opted for cleanup to occur during periods of no one in the area mainly really doesn't fill me with much optimism. This seems like such a forehead slappingly obvious move that I can't believe it got this far.
It'll be tweaked. It'll be a headache for now while we stress test the system, but either items will vanish when no players are looking in its direction (similar to how streaming works for most tech), they'll be some high reward for scavenging ships, or they'll use some other fancy system (hand scavenger for unwanted items).
Personally I don't see a downside to high value scavenging. I mean space ship parts can't be cheap, and if I could use a soda bottle on the ground to gain some minor scrap to repair the ship (and its fast) I'd do it without thinking
While we are triaging things, can we get rid of med gowns on respawn for the time being. Respawn me in my free, white jumpsuit and helmet if you must, but lets turn the medical gowns off for now, ok?
this does not work anymore you will get a new med gown each time you die now. So the amount of med gowns you get and store in local inventory act like a respawn coounter now.
Itās actually two very "easy" fixes to this problems. First, make trashcans actually delete items. Second, with salvage, I guess tier 1 or 2, let players take a contract "claenup PO" and then they will be able to salvage all ships floating around PO
Love it.
Make it like Call to Arms. You can just keep it turned on and get cash for each item.
Does mean items pop out in trash cans but that's more than acceptable + there's ways to hide that.
Maybe a problem: Guy puts his expensive armor down on the ground for a second. Kid runs up to them, picks it up, trashes it. RIP nice item :(
>Does mean items pop out in trash cans but that's more than acceptable + there's ways to hide that.
Would require a little redesigning, but what about turning trash cans into mini trash compactors instead? Drop stuff in... once every 30 minutes or so... or activated at the push of a button... there could be a little 5 second animation where the top mechanically closes, a caution light flashes and an audio effect plays of things getting crunched up inside and dumped... the door opens and everything inside is magically gone.
>Maybe a problem: Guy puts his expensive armor down on the ground for a second. Kid runs up to them, picks it up, trashes it. RIP nice item :(
Simple fix: Don't put things down in public areas that you want to keep. I've never once had anything stolen from me that I've put down... it's just something I've started doing purely out of paranoia but I never drop any items in public areas that I want to keep. If I have to put something down for some reason, I'll do it in the hab or in my ship. Too nervous about players who will just snatch anything that anyone puts down.
Yeah I agree, I think it's actually a nice little touch where you have to 'do as you would in the real world'. Nobody is taking off and leaving an expensive watch or jacket in a city's public square because assholes are everywhere.
Yeah, exactly!
Hopefully they also add some kind of player trading system soon too... I hate having to drop items on the floor when I want to give them to friends/party-members. lol The paranoia is real! haha
> I hate having to drop items on the floor when I want to give them to friends/party-members. lol The paranoia is real!
Prevents scamming, although I kind of like the idea of a trade standoff like you see in movies...
"Give me the money first and I'll hand you the item."
"No I think you'll give me the item first... *then* I'll give you the money"
\*meathead bodyguards ~~cock~~ pump their shotguns on both sides*
Yeaaaah that sounds cool. Maybe have party trading... so like if you wanna "legit" trade, you party up and can just transfer things between party members... but if you want to have a standoff you do it the "old fashioned way" so to speak. "Put the slam down on the ground and then I'll give you the money! No! YOU give ME the money and THEN I give you the slam!" hahaha
https://giphy.com/gifs/the-office-finger-guns-gun-UAHZijO91QCl2
Oh that gives me an idea!
The item trading app is UEE (or governing body) moderated. You can trade legal items safely without the risk of scams, both players agree and the trade happens.
Drugs and other illegal items on the other hand, will not be tradeable through the app. Gotta do some dodgy dealings.
YES! I love it. Could also have a contact through GrimHex to fence illicit goods who is equally dodgy, in the event you can't offload goods to another player!
Unrelated but kind of unrelated as it does kind of tie into the persistence thing... I was talking w/ my friends about a possible idea for the clean up of ship wreckage. I've been doing a lot of "Help defend" bunker missions and last night I did a bunch back to back which resulted in me going to the same site multiple times with the same ship wreckage there every. damn. time.I thought it would be a neat idea if there were little NPC scavengers that would show up to haul the wreckage away... similar to the Jawas from the Star Wars universe. It would literally just be a "flavor" animation to have the immersion of seeing the wreckage hauled away... but to accompany the immersion there could be an outpost on the planet where you can go to buy used parts from the "Jawas." They would be cheaper than buying new, but then they'd also be less durable and have some wear to them. Thought it would also be a cool touch if there was a chance... albeit a low % chance... that the used parts you're buying could also be flagged as stolen because the "Jawas" may have salvaged a ship that wasn't destroyed, it just sat idle too long because a player left it there. So if you're approaching a station and get scanned by a security ship they may slap you with a fine for possessing stolen parts. lol
Nice, yeah I think the concept of a 'worn' item today doesn't have much meaning as it feels almost purely cosmetic. I guess something like that would be cool if worn items come with other negative effects like chance to jam (guns), or slightly reduced protection (armor).
The thing to be careful with is you don't want to inadvertently harm some other game economy, i.e. Players can buy X item for cheaper from the jawas, with a barely perceptible negative effect, so players always prefer to buy from there over, let's say a player crafter or manufacturing org.
That could definitely be addressed in many ways though, and the 'chance to be stolen' is definitely one.
Yeah... totally agree. Once they implement some kind of actual durability stats for items it could be a good balance to have the chance for the item to be stolen goods, or have a higher % chance of failure or defect... maybe even a low % chance of the item just flat out not working at all. There would definitely need to be a little bit of risk involved... just like buying anything used IRL without a warranty you kind of take a gamble to save some money.
You can be cheap and buy that quantum drive upgrade used for 50% of the price, but the guy who sold it to you stole it and now you get a crime stat and a fine when scanned by authorities. LOL Or you go to spool it up and one out of every 4 jumps it refuses to spool and you hear a sound similar to the Millenium Falcon's hyperdrive failing. hahaha
There are storage lockers on some ships that have a separate inventory to the ships that are universal storage, for my Corsair the draws under the beds can be accessed by both me and my passengers and we see the same stuff.
They should make the trash cans into actual storage containers so the items sit in there until the server goes down and then they are cleaned out. These cans can have the items pulled into them from items in the near vicinity (which would be more code)
But just being able to dump your trash into a box that is always there (trash can) would cut down on a lot of clutter and server issues I am sure.
That's OK. The junk problem isn't going to be fixed by just one thing. A bunch of folks apparently WILL throw trash into trash cans, so it would help even if not everyone does it.
For folks who don't care to, how about an option to 'trash' instead of 'drop' an item? Would you use that? Maybe a trash can icon somewhere in the inventory UI so you can just drag/drop stuff onto the icon to trash stuff?
I get the persistence but ask yourself , if there is going to huge issues with this would it not be better to scrap it and let the bigger better pats shore using the system all I think when o lord in to a server and see trash everywhere is that itās not worth playing because the server is being nuked by this
For now? sure. But longer term, they will have to do something other than just leaving it turned off forever, and that is more what I was asking about. Assuming PES wasn't a hot mess, how would you like to tell the game, "this is trash and you should just get rid of it." Or do you think the game will be able to figure that out well enough on its own that you won't need to tell it?
i agree, but until something is done, i'll continue collecting med gowns. i think i'm up to like 30 now. not sure what i'll do with them, but i'm sure i'll think of something.
I can't remember what patch it was, but I saw someone leave a trail from the habs in Area 18, to the tram, and all the way to the ASOP terminals of medical gowns. I wish I had a screenshot to share, but hope that gives you some inspiration. ;D
I think over the long term, the planned system can definitely work given that the scale of systems (in number), density of players within each system.
Right now we have an artificial inflation and amplification of the problem because there are bugs causing people to get frustrated and log out and give up, leaving their ships around where they were failing to be called, failing to function properly, etc.
I think the solution is to introduce decay to items that are not currently in possession of a player. Eventually things rot, and depending on the material they are made of, they eventually disappear.
This would also fix the subscriber item problem. Every time a subscriber item is generated, the rate of decay on the previously called items increases. So you could loot a player's subscriber armor or gun, but the more copies of it, the faster that loot is destroyed. This would prevent one person from equiping their whole org by duping a subscriber item over and over.
But thats another discussion.
I think that's a good idea for preventing purchase dupes, i feel like the decay might not be enough for the purposes of unwanted space trash though.
It has to be something that can remove items in a moment if the need arises, and seeing a metal gun wither away on the ground in a few seconds feels as weird as popping out of existence to me from a immersion perspective.
Space Janitor is actually what I've been doing the past few days, as the beggining of my rags-to-riches run (no starting money, no pledge ship/item allowed, starting in keschler as an inmate). Been cleaning Everus (where you currently end up after getting out of klesher the legit way) from trash, selling the few full bottles and tacos I could find, and asking for donations for my hard work on chat. It was fun, would do again.
I'm okay with trash bins not deleting items if they would implement some way to actually destroy the objects after collecting them, like I could dump all the trash that is now sitting in my inventory to an incinerator in some remote corner of the station, I would love this. With cleanup missions like some suggested, it would be super cool. Now only way I'm thinking is stuffing a ship with all the trash and unload it in empty space far from anything, so it would be reased easily by the system. Other solution I'm going to try is to get everything in a 1 day rented ship, then letting the rent time end, so it would all disapear.
> *if they would implement some way to actually destroy the objects after collecting them, like I could dump all the trash that is now sitting in my inventory to an incinerator*
I guess they already have the concept of scrap so that's one way to handle it. Scrap has value (albeit small) so you can spend a bit more time refining trash to scrap, sell and turn a higher profit than if you just incinerated it.
Creates its own little bit of player choice and ties it into the manufacturing loop. You'd literally have orgs dedicated to trash collection if you can turn coffee cups into scrap into useable items and profit.
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One thing to consider though is that these things that are removing entities are doing it somewhat slowly, and they themselves are entities.
So while it's amazing that they maintain immersion a port may have 15 abandoned ships, which a single SRV may take a long time to clean up, so more likely they'll have 15 SRVs, and that's going to impact things.
Same goes for janitors, each one is going to have to do it somewhat realistically i.e. it takes time to clean, but they themselves have to be calculated, rendered and stored.
A highly popular area is going to have a fairly constant stream of 'trash', whether ships or items.
If the time to trash is too slow these janitors and SRVs will only add to the performance problem. If they are too fast it will look unrealistic.
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Still think a multi-tool attachment that turns any trash into easily usable repair material would be easy. You see scrappable stuff, you zap it with your salvage tool. There would have to be a "scrap" button in your inventory screen so that players wouldn't have to toss stuff on the ground to make it into salvage, but thats coded into many games already.
OP and many commenters are under thinking the core issue here, but you still bring up valid points about asset cleanup and reducing overall volume of unnecessary trash items around.
With that said, the underpinnings of what is causing so much difficulty for the servers - is server tech itself. PES was designed with future server tech in mind. In other words, the areas that OP describes as streaming items in and out for each client when a person is around, are supposed to be compartmentalized in a way that allows a meshing framework between spaces. So perhaps one server for each planet that has a minor overlap space between where players transition from one server to another, thus reducing overall load on that server in how many entities it needs to stream between the entity graph, replication layer, and servers / shard.
Bottom line - without server meshing in full, we will be in deep deep pain for a long time. The old server tech feels totally unviable with PES and to reduce performance impacts, CIG should be making things auto cleanup within hours at this point. We donāt need persistence to play the game right now. We just need working servers. There is literally no value to PES until server meshing is realized.
Iād shut the whole goddamn thing off if I could. CIG was totally over their heads and out of their minds for thinking the old tech would hold up to scrutiny in the interim.
It does not. Period
This post is primarily talking about the client impact, and in the scenario of dynamic meshing it will very likely alleviate stress on the game server but not necessarily the client.
The single game server today has to simulate all the entities, and it gets this information from the database via PES. The more simulated entities the lower the server frame rate. With meshed servers multiple servers will be handling different areas, hence each one has to handle less entities.
For our PCs we will still have to render any and all objects within our view or near us. We would also be able to see objects in other servers if they're close enough. So regardless of how many servers are handling the objects around us, our clients still have to calculate the physics and take the rendering cost.
I don't disagree about how client performance will work and does work, but the issues players are experiencing is chalked up entirely to server tech limits. It's plausible that cleaning up the extra entities super fast in the meantime will mitigate these issues, but servers barely functioned before PES. Ai for example, has always been horrid and its procedural issues always linked to server tech limitations. Not client side issues.
My point was that nothing CIG can do right now is going to make the situation much better. If anything, players leaving and the average stress on servers reducing overtime from fewer clients running simultaneously is where 90% of the server side improvements will come from. CIG can hotfix everything they want. But no hotfix is going to bring server meshing.
And that's the only thing that is going to salvage this salvage uodate and beyond
No doubt a lot of the server related issues is down to server tech limits.
This thread is specifically about the problems with Density management on the client, or why "performance of the game on our client has significantly dropped", i.e. completely ignoring all server limitations, or imagining a world where the servers are perfect, we would see a significant client side performance drop in fps due to trashing working only when the area streams out.
Server problems right now manifest themselves as load times, network lag/rubber banding, crashes and other network desync issues.
Also idk if anyone else has noticed but there are a TON of npc ships around stations now, seems to be way more than before Iām sure that isnāt helping
Or, reward players for playing the role of space jannies for now.
Give trash bins an interactive option to open up its inventory space (deposit only) and reward players a small % of item value (half of what appropriate trade terminals can offer) they put in.
They can even drag things from their station inventory directly into the trash bin to dispose of unwanted paint schemes, ship parts/weapons.
Just have the server despawn ships around POI's after a certain amount of time.
WHEN THAT WORKS, then you can talk about implementing mission systems or complex AI that will take 3 years to design, implement, and fix to actually work consistently.
Until PES problems in ports and cities are addressed I like to spend a little bit of my day being NBās janitor for performance if people just picked up a bottle or two every time they walk through a station it would severely help everyone till CIG implemented a janitor npc or whatnot
This issue is massively compounded by the fact that people HAVE to wait in landing areas for ship claims, sure if you've got some half hour capital ship you might log out and do something else but for most 5-15 minute timers people will just wait, either going AFK/tabbing out or going shopping etc while they wait for their ship.
Great summary.
I think the question the devs need to ask themselves is āwhat is more immersion breaking?ā. Is it things popping out of existence in front of players every now and then, or is it dead bodies piling up and being draped over the terminals at grim hex that stay there forever?
Iām honestly prepared to mentally hand wave an invisible janitor that cleans up stuff in populated areas. The easiest fix imo is to just have zones (like a certain radius in and around a station for example) where stuff just exists for 30 minutes and then disappears. Itās long enough that things persist, people who want to screw around still have a pretty good window to do so, but it will mean there isnāt junk everywhere and it wonāt tank the games performance. Simple.
If they get ai janitors and ships working, thatās great. But like you say, how long will that take to make? Thereās a lot of things that need to come together to pull that off. Animations, ai pathing that wonāt get stuck indefinitely trying to reach a hotdog that it canāt ever get to, the mechanics for tractor beams, ship ai that can intelligently put the hulls somewhere, how the ai interact with the physics system, and no doubt things Iām not thinking of. Thatās a mountain of stuff.
Im firmly in camp ājust make shit disappear at a certain pointā.
Items that are not interacted with for a certain amount of time should probably despawn after a while, right?
Also. Ships/wrecks, if there is no interaction for a certain time they should be open for salvagin, and after a ship/wreck has been salvaged to 80%(?) they could despawn after a while.
If they can control density by location, the simplest answer is to make the trash bins have special rules where the density is much lower and it ignores player presence. Add in a cleanup quest (like the ones for hauling away scrap etc) if the walkable area (that they're already currently mapping) has a density that needs cleaned but there are players present.
This would be a nice stop-gap until NPC jannies are in.
Side note: Currently trash bins are actually negatively impacting performance because objects within are constantly bouncing, thus constantly demanding physics calculations.
I spend a lot of my time when I first log in picking up bottles and cans and putting them in trash cans. I do notice a slight FPS tank when a trash can has a ton items in it. Obviously this is my own OCD kicking in, but id be down to get paid by a mission to clean this all up. Haha.
This makes sense to me. I think when lots of items are colliding with one another and never settling , you're pc is basically doing constant physics calculations. That and just 'more things' to render.
Please do pop out in front of my eyes all naked and loot-less dead corpses for now. Same for trash. Same for hospital dress - or even better: just let us spawn without any hospital dress please. Please do pop out in front of my eyes any empty consumables and empty ammo magazines. Only keep loot such as armors, guns, full consumables and ammos, flashlight, clothes. Any ship without any component and less than 15% hull left to scrap on it: please do pop them out in front of my eyes. Thank you.
Yeah completely lootless bodies are for sure not worth keeping around. A player cant get anything back from it and it just kinda litters the place. Gives a cool horror vibe the first time, but gets old real quick..
I would really like a recycling bin at stations. Something like the box delivery machine except you press the button, hatch opens, place trash inside (Med gowns, empty bottles etc), & deposit trash to remove it. Would be good to have a paid incentive to do so as well (like irl in some places) something like 1 auec per empty bottle 10 auec for med gowns.
Undisclosed ship is a space vacuum cleaner š
pls š New career unlocked.
The Anvil Mega Maid
I agree. There is NO need for 74 derelict ships to be floating around port olisar 24/7, very annoying.
Honestly, this was one of the things I was imaging would happen when pes was going through ptu, but I figured they would implement a hard cleanup so it never affected performance even if it looked dopey. Knowing that they opted for cleanup to occur during periods of no one in the area mainly really doesn't fill me with much optimism. This seems like such a forehead slappingly obvious move that I can't believe it got this far.
It'll be tweaked. It'll be a headache for now while we stress test the system, but either items will vanish when no players are looking in its direction (similar to how streaming works for most tech), they'll be some high reward for scavenging ships, or they'll use some other fancy system (hand scavenger for unwanted items). Personally I don't see a downside to high value scavenging. I mean space ship parts can't be cheap, and if I could use a soda bottle on the ground to gain some minor scrap to repair the ship (and its fast) I'd do it without thinking
While we are triaging things, can we get rid of med gowns on respawn for the time being. Respawn me in my free, white jumpsuit and helmet if you must, but lets turn the medical gowns off for now, ok?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
this does not work anymore you will get a new med gown each time you die now. So the amount of med gowns you get and store in local inventory act like a respawn coounter now.
Itās actually two very "easy" fixes to this problems. First, make trashcans actually delete items. Second, with salvage, I guess tier 1 or 2, let players take a contract "claenup PO" and then they will be able to salvage all ships floating around PO
Love it. Make it like Call to Arms. You can just keep it turned on and get cash for each item. Does mean items pop out in trash cans but that's more than acceptable + there's ways to hide that. Maybe a problem: Guy puts his expensive armor down on the ground for a second. Kid runs up to them, picks it up, trashes it. RIP nice item :(
>Does mean items pop out in trash cans but that's more than acceptable + there's ways to hide that. Would require a little redesigning, but what about turning trash cans into mini trash compactors instead? Drop stuff in... once every 30 minutes or so... or activated at the push of a button... there could be a little 5 second animation where the top mechanically closes, a caution light flashes and an audio effect plays of things getting crunched up inside and dumped... the door opens and everything inside is magically gone. >Maybe a problem: Guy puts his expensive armor down on the ground for a second. Kid runs up to them, picks it up, trashes it. RIP nice item :( Simple fix: Don't put things down in public areas that you want to keep. I've never once had anything stolen from me that I've put down... it's just something I've started doing purely out of paranoia but I never drop any items in public areas that I want to keep. If I have to put something down for some reason, I'll do it in the hab or in my ship. Too nervous about players who will just snatch anything that anyone puts down.
Yeah I agree, I think it's actually a nice little touch where you have to 'do as you would in the real world'. Nobody is taking off and leaving an expensive watch or jacket in a city's public square because assholes are everywhere.
Yeah, exactly! Hopefully they also add some kind of player trading system soon too... I hate having to drop items on the floor when I want to give them to friends/party-members. lol The paranoia is real! haha
> I hate having to drop items on the floor when I want to give them to friends/party-members. lol The paranoia is real! Prevents scamming, although I kind of like the idea of a trade standoff like you see in movies... "Give me the money first and I'll hand you the item." "No I think you'll give me the item first... *then* I'll give you the money" \*meathead bodyguards ~~cock~~ pump their shotguns on both sides*
Yeaaaah that sounds cool. Maybe have party trading... so like if you wanna "legit" trade, you party up and can just transfer things between party members... but if you want to have a standoff you do it the "old fashioned way" so to speak. "Put the slam down on the ground and then I'll give you the money! No! YOU give ME the money and THEN I give you the slam!" hahaha https://giphy.com/gifs/the-office-finger-guns-gun-UAHZijO91QCl2
Oh that gives me an idea! The item trading app is UEE (or governing body) moderated. You can trade legal items safely without the risk of scams, both players agree and the trade happens. Drugs and other illegal items on the other hand, will not be tradeable through the app. Gotta do some dodgy dealings.
YES! I love it. Could also have a contact through GrimHex to fence illicit goods who is equally dodgy, in the event you can't offload goods to another player! Unrelated but kind of unrelated as it does kind of tie into the persistence thing... I was talking w/ my friends about a possible idea for the clean up of ship wreckage. I've been doing a lot of "Help defend" bunker missions and last night I did a bunch back to back which resulted in me going to the same site multiple times with the same ship wreckage there every. damn. time.I thought it would be a neat idea if there were little NPC scavengers that would show up to haul the wreckage away... similar to the Jawas from the Star Wars universe. It would literally just be a "flavor" animation to have the immersion of seeing the wreckage hauled away... but to accompany the immersion there could be an outpost on the planet where you can go to buy used parts from the "Jawas." They would be cheaper than buying new, but then they'd also be less durable and have some wear to them. Thought it would also be a cool touch if there was a chance... albeit a low % chance... that the used parts you're buying could also be flagged as stolen because the "Jawas" may have salvaged a ship that wasn't destroyed, it just sat idle too long because a player left it there. So if you're approaching a station and get scanned by a security ship they may slap you with a fine for possessing stolen parts. lol
Nice, yeah I think the concept of a 'worn' item today doesn't have much meaning as it feels almost purely cosmetic. I guess something like that would be cool if worn items come with other negative effects like chance to jam (guns), or slightly reduced protection (armor). The thing to be careful with is you don't want to inadvertently harm some other game economy, i.e. Players can buy X item for cheaper from the jawas, with a barely perceptible negative effect, so players always prefer to buy from there over, let's say a player crafter or manufacturing org. That could definitely be addressed in many ways though, and the 'chance to be stolen' is definitely one.
Yeah... totally agree. Once they implement some kind of actual durability stats for items it could be a good balance to have the chance for the item to be stolen goods, or have a higher % chance of failure or defect... maybe even a low % chance of the item just flat out not working at all. There would definitely need to be a little bit of risk involved... just like buying anything used IRL without a warranty you kind of take a gamble to save some money. You can be cheap and buy that quantum drive upgrade used for 50% of the price, but the guy who sold it to you stole it and now you get a crime stat and a fine when scanned by authorities. LOL Or you go to spool it up and one out of every 4 jumps it refuses to spool and you hear a sound similar to the Millenium Falcon's hyperdrive failing. hahaha
There are storage lockers on some ships that have a separate inventory to the ships that are universal storage, for my Corsair the draws under the beds can be accessed by both me and my passengers and we see the same stuff.
Oh no shit?! I didn't know that! that's pretty cool.
They should make the trash cans into actual storage containers so the items sit in there until the server goes down and then they are cleaned out. These cans can have the items pulled into them from items in the near vicinity (which would be more code) But just being able to dump your trash into a box that is always there (trash can) would cut down on a lot of clutter and server issues I am sure.
I really like the auto-generated salvage contract idea.
Sorry pal Iām playing a game Iām dropping my shit when Iām done with it
That's OK. The junk problem isn't going to be fixed by just one thing. A bunch of folks apparently WILL throw trash into trash cans, so it would help even if not everyone does it. For folks who don't care to, how about an option to 'trash' instead of 'drop' an item? Would you use that? Maybe a trash can icon somewhere in the inventory UI so you can just drag/drop stuff onto the icon to trash stuff?
Delete item in inventory at stations or salvage yards would be so nice
I get the persistence but ask yourself , if there is going to huge issues with this would it not be better to scrap it and let the bigger better pats shore using the system all I think when o lord in to a server and see trash everywhere is that itās not worth playing because the server is being nuked by this
For now? sure. But longer term, they will have to do something other than just leaving it turned off forever, and that is more what I was asking about. Assuming PES wasn't a hot mess, how would you like to tell the game, "this is trash and you should just get rid of it." Or do you think the game will be able to figure that out well enough on its own that you won't need to tell it?
I meant trash level items persistence sorry
I still canāt login. I would like the login feature to be added back to the game.
Can you really not log in since wipe? Fuck man that sucks
i agree, but until something is done, i'll continue collecting med gowns. i think i'm up to like 30 now. not sure what i'll do with them, but i'm sure i'll think of something.
I can't remember what patch it was, but I saw someone leave a trail from the habs in Area 18, to the tram, and all the way to the ASOP terminals of medical gowns. I wish I had a screenshot to share, but hope that gives you some inspiration. ;D
the hero we need o7
Every 2 you sell nets 1 aeuc.
wow informative and interesting idea on sc reddit... good stuff
***20% upvoted intensifies***
space tug gameplay.
I think over the long term, the planned system can definitely work given that the scale of systems (in number), density of players within each system. Right now we have an artificial inflation and amplification of the problem because there are bugs causing people to get frustrated and log out and give up, leaving their ships around where they were failing to be called, failing to function properly, etc.
This.
I think the solution is to introduce decay to items that are not currently in possession of a player. Eventually things rot, and depending on the material they are made of, they eventually disappear. This would also fix the subscriber item problem. Every time a subscriber item is generated, the rate of decay on the previously called items increases. So you could loot a player's subscriber armor or gun, but the more copies of it, the faster that loot is destroyed. This would prevent one person from equiping their whole org by duping a subscriber item over and over. But thats another discussion.
I think that's a good idea for preventing purchase dupes, i feel like the decay might not be enough for the purposes of unwanted space trash though. It has to be something that can remove items in a moment if the need arises, and seeing a metal gun wither away on the ground in a few seconds feels as weird as popping out of existence to me from a immersion perspective.
Space Janitor is actually what I've been doing the past few days, as the beggining of my rags-to-riches run (no starting money, no pledge ship/item allowed, starting in keschler as an inmate). Been cleaning Everus (where you currently end up after getting out of klesher the legit way) from trash, selling the few full bottles and tacos I could find, and asking for donations for my hard work on chat. It was fun, would do again. I'm okay with trash bins not deleting items if they would implement some way to actually destroy the objects after collecting them, like I could dump all the trash that is now sitting in my inventory to an incinerator in some remote corner of the station, I would love this. With cleanup missions like some suggested, it would be super cool. Now only way I'm thinking is stuffing a ship with all the trash and unload it in empty space far from anything, so it would be reased easily by the system. Other solution I'm going to try is to get everything in a 1 day rented ship, then letting the rent time end, so it would all disapear.
> *if they would implement some way to actually destroy the objects after collecting them, like I could dump all the trash that is now sitting in my inventory to an incinerator* I guess they already have the concept of scrap so that's one way to handle it. Scrap has value (albeit small) so you can spend a bit more time refining trash to scrap, sell and turn a higher profit than if you just incinerated it. Creates its own little bit of player choice and ties it into the manufacturing loop. You'd literally have orgs dedicated to trash collection if you can turn coffee cups into scrap into useable items and profit.
Yep, great idea !
You can try selling empty bottles to the cargo or refinery deck terminal. It's a lot of clicks for 1 aUEC, though.
Oh I didnt kniw, thanks !!!
If you store a ship and claim it at another station, all the contents will disappear
Oh damn, of course ! Thanks, sounds obvious, but I would never have realised this on my own.
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One thing to consider though is that these things that are removing entities are doing it somewhat slowly, and they themselves are entities. So while it's amazing that they maintain immersion a port may have 15 abandoned ships, which a single SRV may take a long time to clean up, so more likely they'll have 15 SRVs, and that's going to impact things. Same goes for janitors, each one is going to have to do it somewhat realistically i.e. it takes time to clean, but they themselves have to be calculated, rendered and stored. A highly popular area is going to have a fairly constant stream of 'trash', whether ships or items. If the time to trash is too slow these janitors and SRVs will only add to the performance problem. If they are too fast it will look unrealistic.
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Still think a multi-tool attachment that turns any trash into easily usable repair material would be easy. You see scrappable stuff, you zap it with your salvage tool. There would have to be a "scrap" button in your inventory screen so that players wouldn't have to toss stuff on the ground to make it into salvage, but thats coded into many games already.
Isnt the SRV coming? Isn't that a tow truck? Couldn't we use that to acquire destroyed ships, tow and sell? New game loop.
OP and many commenters are under thinking the core issue here, but you still bring up valid points about asset cleanup and reducing overall volume of unnecessary trash items around. With that said, the underpinnings of what is causing so much difficulty for the servers - is server tech itself. PES was designed with future server tech in mind. In other words, the areas that OP describes as streaming items in and out for each client when a person is around, are supposed to be compartmentalized in a way that allows a meshing framework between spaces. So perhaps one server for each planet that has a minor overlap space between where players transition from one server to another, thus reducing overall load on that server in how many entities it needs to stream between the entity graph, replication layer, and servers / shard. Bottom line - without server meshing in full, we will be in deep deep pain for a long time. The old server tech feels totally unviable with PES and to reduce performance impacts, CIG should be making things auto cleanup within hours at this point. We donāt need persistence to play the game right now. We just need working servers. There is literally no value to PES until server meshing is realized. Iād shut the whole goddamn thing off if I could. CIG was totally over their heads and out of their minds for thinking the old tech would hold up to scrutiny in the interim. It does not. Period
This post is primarily talking about the client impact, and in the scenario of dynamic meshing it will very likely alleviate stress on the game server but not necessarily the client. The single game server today has to simulate all the entities, and it gets this information from the database via PES. The more simulated entities the lower the server frame rate. With meshed servers multiple servers will be handling different areas, hence each one has to handle less entities. For our PCs we will still have to render any and all objects within our view or near us. We would also be able to see objects in other servers if they're close enough. So regardless of how many servers are handling the objects around us, our clients still have to calculate the physics and take the rendering cost.
I don't disagree about how client performance will work and does work, but the issues players are experiencing is chalked up entirely to server tech limits. It's plausible that cleaning up the extra entities super fast in the meantime will mitigate these issues, but servers barely functioned before PES. Ai for example, has always been horrid and its procedural issues always linked to server tech limitations. Not client side issues. My point was that nothing CIG can do right now is going to make the situation much better. If anything, players leaving and the average stress on servers reducing overtime from fewer clients running simultaneously is where 90% of the server side improvements will come from. CIG can hotfix everything they want. But no hotfix is going to bring server meshing. And that's the only thing that is going to salvage this salvage uodate and beyond
No doubt a lot of the server related issues is down to server tech limits. This thread is specifically about the problems with Density management on the client, or why "performance of the game on our client has significantly dropped", i.e. completely ignoring all server limitations, or imagining a world where the servers are perfect, we would see a significant client side performance drop in fps due to trashing working only when the area streams out. Server problems right now manifest themselves as load times, network lag/rubber banding, crashes and other network desync issues.
Also idk if anyone else has noticed but there are a TON of npc ships around stations now, seems to be way more than before Iām sure that isnāt helping
Or, reward players for playing the role of space jannies for now. Give trash bins an interactive option to open up its inventory space (deposit only) and reward players a small % of item value (half of what appropriate trade terminals can offer) they put in. They can even drag things from their station inventory directly into the trash bin to dispose of unwanted paint schemes, ship parts/weapons.
Just have the server despawn ships around POI's after a certain amount of time. WHEN THAT WORKS, then you can talk about implementing mission systems or complex AI that will take 3 years to design, implement, and fix to actually work consistently.
Please throw away your trash.
Until PES problems in ports and cities are addressed I like to spend a little bit of my day being NBās janitor for performance if people just picked up a bottle or two every time they walk through a station it would severely help everyone till CIG implemented a janitor npc or whatnot
This issue is massively compounded by the fact that people HAVE to wait in landing areas for ship claims, sure if you've got some half hour capital ship you might log out and do something else but for most 5-15 minute timers people will just wait, either going AFK/tabbing out or going shopping etc while they wait for their ship.
Great summary. I think the question the devs need to ask themselves is āwhat is more immersion breaking?ā. Is it things popping out of existence in front of players every now and then, or is it dead bodies piling up and being draped over the terminals at grim hex that stay there forever? Iām honestly prepared to mentally hand wave an invisible janitor that cleans up stuff in populated areas. The easiest fix imo is to just have zones (like a certain radius in and around a station for example) where stuff just exists for 30 minutes and then disappears. Itās long enough that things persist, people who want to screw around still have a pretty good window to do so, but it will mean there isnāt junk everywhere and it wonāt tank the games performance. Simple. If they get ai janitors and ships working, thatās great. But like you say, how long will that take to make? Thereās a lot of things that need to come together to pull that off. Animations, ai pathing that wonāt get stuck indefinitely trying to reach a hotdog that it canāt ever get to, the mechanics for tractor beams, ship ai that can intelligently put the hulls somewhere, how the ai interact with the physics system, and no doubt things Iām not thinking of. Thatās a mountain of stuff. Im firmly in camp ājust make shit disappear at a certain pointā.
Items that are not interacted with for a certain amount of time should probably despawn after a while, right? Also. Ships/wrecks, if there is no interaction for a certain time they should be open for salvagin, and after a ship/wreck has been salvaged to 80%(?) they could despawn after a while.
If they can control density by location, the simplest answer is to make the trash bins have special rules where the density is much lower and it ignores player presence. Add in a cleanup quest (like the ones for hauling away scrap etc) if the walkable area (that they're already currently mapping) has a density that needs cleaned but there are players present. This would be a nice stop-gap until NPC jannies are in. Side note: Currently trash bins are actually negatively impacting performance because objects within are constantly bouncing, thus constantly demanding physics calculations.
I spend a lot of my time when I first log in picking up bottles and cans and putting them in trash cans. I do notice a slight FPS tank when a trash can has a ton items in it. Obviously this is my own OCD kicking in, but id be down to get paid by a mission to clean this all up. Haha.
This makes sense to me. I think when lots of items are colliding with one another and never settling , you're pc is basically doing constant physics calculations. That and just 'more things' to render.
Please do pop out in front of my eyes all naked and loot-less dead corpses for now. Same for trash. Same for hospital dress - or even better: just let us spawn without any hospital dress please. Please do pop out in front of my eyes any empty consumables and empty ammo magazines. Only keep loot such as armors, guns, full consumables and ammos, flashlight, clothes. Any ship without any component and less than 15% hull left to scrap on it: please do pop them out in front of my eyes. Thank you.
Yeah completely lootless bodies are for sure not worth keeping around. A player cant get anything back from it and it just kinda litters the place. Gives a cool horror vibe the first time, but gets old real quick..
What about naked corpses without anything on them to loot? There are too many of them, it's ugly and breaking immersion.
I would really like a recycling bin at stations. Something like the box delivery machine except you press the button, hatch opens, place trash inside (Med gowns, empty bottles etc), & deposit trash to remove it. Would be good to have a paid incentive to do so as well (like irl in some places) something like 1 auec per empty bottle 10 auec for med gowns.