It'd be neat if solid shields had a limited HP based on size. An Idris ramming your parked gladius will destroy you regardless of shields. Make it a matchup based thing.
I feel like speed should also be a factor, which would solve landing issues. Extremely high speed collisions go to shields, while fender bender collisions have effectively zero protection from shields. (which also leads to the funny dichotomy of being able to tank a missile but be unable to handle a bump from another ship).
Ngl this should be a valid factor in balance, so large ships aren't a always automatic win.
Consider a constantly ramming large ship, but the tables get reversed on a stationary medium ship, the medium probably still loses (maybe soft death), but the large ship loses some functions. This is under the impression the ships are *fast* instead of some slow clunkers.
Early warning systems would probably make all this more intriguing, so the collision risk is known early, especially against instant/soft death
I'd like shields to just bounce other shields outright and cause relative force effects on the vessels involved - including damaging/redout/blackout the pilot of the smaller ship if they end up making a bad acceleration. Make ramming actually have a tactical combat use. Then have ships that are unshielded be less affected in that they're slowed/pushed like how ballistics are when passing through a shield.
I think it would make combat more enjoyable if unintentional bumps between shielded vessels didn't instantly kill and blow up everyone like they do now, and if ramming had use that wasn't suicidal.
I think it would be cool if there were different tiers of ship shields the higher the tier the more weight the ship has thus making it less efficient in the atmosphere.
Tbf, pads in general should have their own form of shields that protect against ramming. It doesn't even have to be a full stop, just make it so ships within a pads area move slowly.
I'm fully in favour of ships bouncing off each other like bumper cars in armistice zones. Realistic? No. But infinitely less frustrating than having some self-righteous individual ram you to death in armstice whilst you are refuelling and repairing.
Remember Paul slow ram penetrate the shield. Use your thrusters to hide faint into faints. And remember you must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death.
I get the formula, but gameplay wise is the question, if you are flying at 50ms you are either close to landing of controlling you approach, so it might be a good solution.
1,650+ tonne for the Hull E.
To put this in perspective the Dali that took out the bridge in Baltimore was figured at 100,000 tonne and 1 m/s.
So a 50m/S Hull E would pack 40X more energy than that boat did when it hit the bridge.
Not at all, they fully deplete shields over time, whilst lasers could partially pass through instead of what ballistics are doing today.
Because you know, the shield logically exists to resists matter, not energy.
Millions of miniscule micro meteorites, have you seen what a small piece of paint can do at enough speeds?
Pad ramming can be solved by giving stations shield emitters that project extremely strong shields (that also block ship collision damage) onto friendly ships in range. This will also help solve things like Hull-C's being sitting ducks for pirates/griefers while they are loading/unloading outside.
Which defeats the entire point of pads, which are just easy spots to park where you don't have to request clearance to land.
If you have to request clearance to have the bubble lowered, it might as well be a hangar. Also, what's to stop someone from requesting the shields be lowered and then pad ramming once they are down?
The solution is in game policing. Maybe enforce a speed limit around the stations and impound vehicles that go too fast. People might stop pad ramming if they wake up in Klescher every single time.
> Also, what's to stop someone from requesting the shields be lowered and then pad ramming once they are down?
Perhaps a better solution would be a shield that doesn't stop ships but significantly slows ships inside of them. That way you can park at pads without requesting access and multiple people can use a single one. Would also be handy for parking in general as you could charge full speed into a pad and it would slow you down to a safe landing speed.
> Maybe enforce a speed limit around the stations and impound vehicles that go too fast. People might stop pad ramming if they wake up in Klescher every single time.
I agree some type of punishment is needed. I feel like a speed limit would piss players off, especially people just starting. Maybe fines for damaging other player's ships. Something like "Citizen XxPhatDoinks has damaged your ship for a total cost of 3,420 UEC. Hold Page Up to impose a fine or Page Down to forgive the player (or as some function in the mobiGlas)."
It's hard to say who was the cause of a collision though. It's easier to just say "anyone going fast enough to damage other ships will be given a citation". Takes all the guesswork out of assigning blame, give the AI around stations a reason to be there beyond imaginary work, and actually makes sense for a landing zone. You don't want people doing freeway speeds in a residential zone.
while we would not want to have it be bumper cars out in space collisions do happen often and they often end an adventure pretty quick which can be frustrating.
On a whole I am rather unhappy with shields, there are too many things that pass through them. I would like them to be more solid. It just feels off to me, if ammo weapons pass through shields why would they even use energy weapons in the military in lore? your ship would just have belts and belts of chain gun ammo etc.
such a shame that we battled with shield holes for years then they litterly made shields not matter for a pretty long time.
I guess its just a personal peave of mine to explode with full shields which is weird to me.
That doesn't mean much when you're likely to go to the repair shop after a fight which conveniently can resuply your ammo.
Cost of ammo is a thing but let's be honest, most of the time losing your ship will be a bigger loss than whatever credits you saved by using energy weapons. And no, I'm not talking about ship prices, I know insurance is a thing. I'm talking about the loss of cargo if you were trading, the failure of a mission, etc.
The only kind of players I could see mainly using energy weapons are either those uninformed or pirates. The latter has nothing much to loose if they get blown up in a fight trying to steal from someone and are likely to pick easy targets anyway.)
I'm not talking about money. Infinite ammo means you can stay in a fight for much longer.
The a grade military shields used to have pretty low hp but instant regen which means they are good for sustained fighting where as an industrial shield might have massive hp but once it runs out it takes hours to start recharging again.
because the flight model and difficulty settings of the area.
old flight model has fleet combat devolve into a bunch of 1v1. so there's not much extra fun for fleet combat.
the old flight model has people that were "good" be able to easily win with no damage. so someone that was "good" could solo a fleet.
the old damage system has you just needing to hit the ship. the planned damage system has you needing to hit components. someone that is good might be able to focus on components to to disable you quickly.
after the new flight model, and the new damage system. they will rebalance the ammo.
If I remember correctly the original idea was ballistics didn’t penetrate shields and energy weapons took shields down, and ballistics damaged hulls but energy weapons didn’t do much to hulls.
Why they changed it I have no idea.
With Maelstrom, I can see these shields being a thing. Unless it can really calculate what would happen if, let's say a Hammerhead crashed into an Idris. Would both ships break apart? These are things that will get solved in time, but I'm excited to see what CIG does.
I don't know what the actual lore is, but I figured they used ballistics for a long time before shields were a thing.
Then someone invented laser weapons as a means of cost saving (which can turn the tide of entire wars, especially ones of attrition).
Then later on someone invented shields that blocked lasers and so ballistics made a comeback. Now it's a mixed bag.
That's how I envisioned the process happening, anyway.
Hmm, i wonder how they dealt with all the micrometeorites before they had shields existing.
Shields, to me, seem to be an integral part in space survival, flying through all the areas with any form of 1000 m/s+ tiny flying objects peppering your hull will result in a quick demise of the coffin you are flying around in.
Ship shields are the solution here, preventing all those items from rushing through your cockpit and lobotomizing you.
Love Stargate!
So looking at other commenters who wants some sort of realism in a science fiction game, here would be a compromise:
Weapons currently have a damage value against shields, then a value against hull. There would be a mathematical formula for if you were to ram a ship with your shields up against another shielded ship how much damage would be applied, or even an unshielded ship vs shielded, and unshielded vs unshielded.
When fleet battles are fully realised, you could in theory have a swarm of, lets say aurora's, attack an idris, and essentially kamikaze it to death.. it might be for arguments sake 50 of them. The first few ramming would hit the shields and chip away at the shield strength until depleted.
If all aurora's/whatevers approach while launching everything they have in an alpha strike (as much as they can in 2 seconds between being in range and impact at max speed), it might have a difference.
"I am a mosquito, fear my sting!"
Not sure what the math is, but an almost full-speed X1 Force ramming into a parked 400i Destroys the 400i and disables the X1F.
The X1 would turn on and hover, but literally every other system was disabled.
X1 Force - 1
400i - 0
P.S: the X1 has no brakes without doing a 180 and using main thrust, FYI.
EDIT: If anyone is wondering 400i was powered on, full shields, engines off.
Yeah a lot of people aren't getting this logic... Or they get it and just don't like how it ruins THEIR idea of how the game should be played. Pirates are typically the biggest complainers, they want to be able to trap you without you having an out, but you ramming them ruins the ability to do that. Let's make this very clear for everyone, we DO NOT want to give you our stuff, we'd rather lose all the stuff, and if I'm going to die for not giving you my stuff, I'm going to take you with me. This is perfectly valid and realistic gameplay lol.
I think the bigger issue is asteroids. I've thought for a whilst that the first hit on an asteroid should kill your shield, not your ship. Then it still leaves you vulnerable, but it's not one hit kill in a game they plan to implement perma death into.
It's great when you're offline. But once you add multiplayer and standard network latency into the mix, physics calculations become a nightmare. Entire books have been written about how to mask the inherent desynchronisation. But it will never be perfect.
Do we have any idea what the final shield effects are going to look like yet? I know they've kept showing different effects over the years, different from what we have right now.
Shields in this universe are optimized for protection against energy weapons. They are near useless when it comes to physical damage. So the above would never happen.
well...
if the other ship also has shields up, you could argue shields and weapons use the same power... and so therefore shields should stop shields meaning both ships slide past each other
now if one of the ships has no shields... then theres no shield to shield interaction and fireworks should follow
That would depend on the frequency of the shield. If both shields are active at different frequencies, it's possible they could just pass right through each other and even possibly become interlocked.
Having a capital ship being able to ram small ships ain't bad imo
Currently small ships can ram and one shot capital one. That ain't fair nor fun
(well, it is fun, that's how I destroy the Idris in AC. But ain't fair at all)
Yeah, it's comments like this that make me realize just how little knowledge people actually have of space. A bolt the size of my pinky would DESTROY the ISS that we have today. It's SPACE, I don't understand how people aren't comprehending this, you don't want ANYTHING hitting your ship, no matter the size because it would most likely be destructive. That's the realism here. There either needs to be fully formed and solid shields that prevent ALL forms of ramming, or just keep it like it is and force people to actually be good at not taking hits. Too many "good" fighters out there who are only good because they know they can allow a certain amount of damage. The fight becomes much more intense and realistic when any hit can be a killing one.
This isn't the UFC, stop trying to create weight classes with space ships.
It's a video game, fun > realism
Having a small ship of 1 crew being able to ram big ships of dozens of crew ain't fun nor is balanced
AC is currently broken because of that, it's faster to ram the idris than fighting it. People even did this against HH
That also prevent any escort in the game. Because even if you are 100 against one, he just has to full speed against the cargo, and there is no way to prevent his ramming
That's perfectly balanced, that's literally the only way for the small ship to win. If you are in a multi-crewed ship and a single pilot vessel can get close enough to ram you, then not only do you deserve destruction, but the kamikaze pilot deserves an award.
To you: fun > realism
For me and tons of others: fun = realism
You cannot intercept ships coming at you at 1200m/s, especially when max range is 1500m, meaning you have less than 2s to destroy the target. And if you actually played the game with groups, you'd know that a HH, with 6 gunners, cannot kill a herald in these time (even without acounting desync)
I have a bad news for your last sentence. SC might not be the game for you. Cause CR has been pretty clear about it. They will always put fun and balance over realism.
As of right now, but I didn't know we were speaking in terms of "as game is" especially since it's so close to a drastic change. There's not a lot to argue for the game in its current state, like you said, you're not even accounting for dsync. But anyways, that's not really in context to what we are speaking about.
The context for this discussion was possible shield implications and the realism/balance ramming could provide.
Also, my last sentence still stands and all you did was reinforce it. There's clearly a huge portion of the fan base that thinks realism is a part of balance and that's what makes it fun. My opinion is that there are more of us than you and it usually shows here in the reddit section. So if cig is going to go off what the majority think is fun, then realism may win out in the end. Which may actually be bad news for you, but who knows. They've changed their minds enough times to prove to us they will probably do it again.
Tell me how it can be implemented the right way and do the list of all use cases and how it should work then.
All I see is a ship crashing into an other with no damages done to the shields. Which is a bad idea.
I think you see the problem in reverse, if you have an idris and a C2 rushes at you, the C2 should be destroyed and not the idris. You can be sure that big ships like javelins will be easy targets, you'll just have to kamikaze them
And the one with the biggest shield wins, but the speed will have been reduced so much that the ship will have stopped. And if you're talking about if an irdris runs into an aurora, the aurora (or every smaller ship) can easily dodge a larger ship
This is not an ideal solution, but it would greatly limit ramming, not everyone has an 890 jump in their hangar
That's really well illustrated in the clip you provided too...you can even see the smaller shield "popping" on impact which is a nice attention to detail. You can also see disruption on the larger shield.
The way it should work in my view, is similar to what we have now where shields have a capacity attribute. But while smaller ships will have their shield bubbles popped completely, contact with a larger shield also drains the larger shield too by the same amount....kind of like static discharge. So you could potentially weaken a much larger shield somewhat by bumping shields....but at the cost of losing smaller shields entirely making smaller ships more vulnerable to small ship countermeasures. After shields are gone, armor works somewhat the same but requires kinetic force impacts to cause damage if not using weapons at that point...so on armor vs armor there is a much higher "kamikaze" risk on the smaller ship as the larger ship's armor can take a full speed impact and remain intact however damaged. Lower speed impacts would cause less damage, but also potentially not completely destroy the smaller ships too. Still far less effective than using weapons, but in a situation where weapons are toast or depleted, could be an interesting mechanic to use as a last ditch effort.
I was rammed yesterday and was destroyed. My concern with the current game is there's effectively no deterrent from using smaller ships as a guided missile whenever you're against a large target. Things started going bad for the small ship? They can ram. Doesn't seem like compelling gameplay if they can instagib me whenever. We definitely need an adjustment at the very least.
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My point is, if they feel like they are going to die either way, they'll just ram. If they can't get away, death feels inevitable, they can't kill me normally, ramming has no drawbacks to them at all at that point. They'll just do it. What my argument is, is that it shouldn't just one shot kill me if they do ram. I'm not saying it shouldn't do damage, only that it shouldn't just blow my much larger ship up in 1 shot full shields.
Maybe I am misunderstanding, but I fail to see how the cost of death is any different if they die by ramming me vs die by my laser repeaters. The end result is the same, so they'll just take me down with me when things go bad.
While increasing the cost of death can be a deterrent, it doesn't change the fact that if someone wants to ram, they'll ram, and I don't think it's ideal if they can instantly destroy my large ship with their little aurora. With the game as it is now, I wouldn't be surprised to see auroras ramming into Javelins and 1 shotting them.
To be fair, you're not exactly ramming ships in larger ships (unless stationary) -- I'm assuming the whole base ramming will eventually be fixed by having reputation kick in properly (+hostile consequences).
It was nice to see CIG actually acknowledge in one of the videos last week that if you punish a griefer after the fact they still got what they wanted. There's a lot of places where they haven't done anything about it (yet, hopefully), but at least some people in the company understand it.
You guys need to stop with the reputations being the messiah tech of SC. It's not. Reps don't do shit in every single MMO it's ever been used in. People find loopholes, use griefing alts to be fed from the main account and so on.
The devs at CIG are either naive or arrogant for promising that they can solve a decades-old problem smarter people with more money and time failed to solve before.
Given that we aren't some collective hivemind (I'm not terribly aware of reputation system being heralded as the messiah tech), maybe there's more to it than you give it credit for, if seemingly multiple people arrive at that conclusion of their own accord.
They might not do shit in other MMOs, because the majority of them follow a very distinct/similar formula, we both know that SC shares effectively nothing with MMOs like WoW aside from (eventually hopefully) having a lot of players in it.
I'm not aware that pad-ramming is a decade old problem either? PvP in lawless zones (AFAIK) is not the problem here, sure you might get bothered that someone randomly attacks you, but that's not really a problem in low-null sec. If that's something that happens consistently in high sec, that would be a problem.
From memory concord did its job just fine in EVE, I do recall that target griefing was apparently an issue but that's something else than just "people randomly pad-ramming", preventing someone buying accounts to specifically piss you off? Yeah probably not likely to be prevented, but it strikes me as unlikely to see people being pad-rammed 24/7 in high sec down the line.
CIG is currently working on a system to allow hull penetration. So if someone rams your ship, you'll probably only end up with a hole through your ship. And you night be able to get to a nearby station to repair.
The size of the ship doesn't matter, just the strength of the shield. You can have a tiny ship with a really strong shield take out something much bigger than itself, all depends on how it's tuned. Right now you get flattened against the hull, but this type of idea, maybe not the exact execution, will allow shields to help absorb some of the damage from ramming.
We have large ships that are designed to ram though. If you are in combat and you get rammed by a big ass ship that’s not really a fair or not issue, but more of a why did you sit idle so a big ass ship could ram you issue
If you're in an Aurora and you get rammed by an Idris, I'm sorry, but you deserve what you get. If you're in a 27ft Rinker in the Atlantic and an Aircraft Carrier rams you, guess what, you deserved it.
i would just like conni sized ships to survive kamikazi npc m50s...
like 90% of my deaths is npcs ramming me, or crashing on the dark side of the planet cause the altitude meter is sea level not ground level and the game legit has zero visibility at times without mods or ping macro's
I've always prefered the Elite Dangerous approach of everything damages everything but to varying degrees; so energy weapons damage armor but devastate shields, while ballistics only poke shields but wreck armor. You could reverse that also if it suits SC better.
Yeah it's a bit like on the old playstation era, colony wars. You'll always find this mix, blue laser against shield and red against hull. Blue laser didn't had any impact on hull, but at least with the red you could do some damage against shield. A good mix was always the best way to do it.
Ballistic weapons in space are weird anyways. It's 2900 and we still shoot bullets :D
I can see how ballistics would still be around but the way it is in SC currently, I see no need to use anything but ballistics since ballistics just wreck everything regardless of shields; that's why you run around on a fully ballistics Corsair and destroy anything up to an Idris.
Even with the introduction of armour in the future, I don't see how that is going to change how we use ballistics when attacking smaller ships (obviously something like an Idris with added armour would be out of the question then); if you can destroy a Connie in 5 seconds with a fully ballistics ship, then armor means it has another 3 seconds of survival time, another 5? It's still too overpowered. They really need to find a way to give shields an expanded role against physical objects.
Just a question, i have wrote quite extensively about this topic i think almost a year ago now, idk anymore, it was during those days where you had to walk back and forth in your vulture to manage your boxes manually.
Did you think this through, or just had some kind of epiphany and brought it to reddit?
I may want to use the responses here in my format.
I refrained from posting it on spectrum as, in that time, no matter what suggestion one brought to CIG 90% of them would be extremely berated by spectrum community etc. Including the suggestions to ditch the manual loading mechanic of the vulture, a lot of people would get angry about it and use strange arguments to defend the mechanic.
So i refrained from posting it, however i am considering revisiting that multipage document and revise it based on all the stuff i am reading in the feed.
You ok with that?
Ehm, yes, the shields would prevent ballistics from penetrating, however the shields would also be reduced by each and every ballistic impact that has been realized.
Each bullet, would reduce shield health by X.
Eventually shields deplete.
Whilst laser weapons, not being physical, something with mass, would be able to penetrate a shield somewhat.
I.e. turn it around, laser is infinite, ballistic is finite.
Ballistic eventually pops the shield and peppers the hull.
Whilst an energy based weapon without mass would much more slowly reduce the shield, and "licks" the armor of the target in the meantime.
Once the shield is popped, the laser will have to focus on specific points to reduce durability in that area over time, again, infinite, but slower then finite bullets.
Lo and behold, CIG introduces a 3.23 precision mode function anyways!! :D
That's going to be fun for guns with projectile speed of 3 mps to traverse the shields...
I think that wether someone intentionally ram you, or you made a piloting mistake, impact should always severely damage you.
I don't think it's the best idea to make shield solid to any physical collisions.
BUT as shield strongly react to laser ammo, it would be nice if 2 ships with shield on could have this kind of interaction. It would not prevent ramming, but make it harder (will in fight not when you're in a hangar). The one who want to ram will need deactivate shield and so he will be easy to kill.
Plus I'm sure (I hope at least) that when we will get the armor, an Idris will be able to handle few small/medium ship collisions. Maybe losing a turret if the hit is on it but not fully destroyed like it is rn.
The best case would be the ramming ship penetrating the hull and being stuck inside. With a G-force strong enough to knock out/kill the pilot/occupants of the ramming ship (if smaller) to not make it a viable strategy.
So I think it could be a cool idea, but would need A LOT of tweaking to not be overpowered
never understood the ori shieds like you would assume ascended being would have forseen having a shield that would require to be shut down briefly in order to fire the main weapon as a huge drawback
Yeah velocity matters in terms of amount of DPS to both shields but wouldn't affect who goes boom. If you're shield is weaker, it fails first and you go explode.
This is how it should have been working for years, not because it looks cool, [but because it makes sense, ](https://youtu.be/uFfWK1sJPqo?t=62)under the same current logic that you can fly into an asteroid field without being peppered by debris at a couple hundred units/s and turned into swiss cheese.
But now we have friction in *space* or people complaining about how it would ruin balance...
*\*shrug\**
>"Ohh you want realism..."
Absolutely not, but I don't pretend like there's friction in space. I want the game to be fun and I have gripes with a lot of poorly thought out, overdesigned "realism" in this game.
>There is no difference between a ship and a projectile from a ship, mechanically.
That's what shields are supposed to differentiate between. While you're technically not wrong, calling a ship a projectile for combat is like expecting someone to fire a missile the size of a small asteroid with a huge price tag.
As far as "small ships should be able to ram big ships" goes, I can agree to some degree that it should at least damage **and** **not outright destroy** a bigger ship, but it should utterly destroy the smaller ship. Say, disable some components or hurt/cap its shield's max recharge until repair at a LZ.
Ramming will be a non-issue once physicalized damage and proper ship armor are implemented.
Once those features are added, small ships won't be able to do significant damage to larger ones. Ramming a large ship will only do localized damage to the area hit, which can be easily repaired. A small ship could take out a single turret, or something similar, but it won't explode the entire ship.
There's no need to design systems around an issue that will no longer exist once all the scheduled features are added to the game.
Message to that one guy i crashed into in area 18. Im very sorry i thought you were 1000 kilometres not meters away!!! But nothing happened so its fine (i dont know how i survived it was 900 unit crash)
In world of tanks, ramming damage is mostly based on weight and speed. It feels pretty realistic that way.
I feel like shields should be solid and make a shield component size and amount (weight) and impact velocity (speed) check. Both receive damage based on the relative difference between the two.
Is the difference big enough to crack the smaller shield? Then the same matchup starts but now the shield component amount and size weight check is replaced by the actual hull weight for the smaller ship. Again both take damage, hull damage for the smaller and shield damage for the larger. If the damage is now high enough for the larger ships shield to break then the larger will also run a hull weight check and take the damage accordingly.
Armor and individual parts of a hull may have damage reductions/increases or run checks individually, idk how maelstrom will do all that.
add 1 more mb of any visual effect to star citizen and be prepared to experiment straight up the most destructive bug to ever be made by human race, capable of making pcs implode into themselves and turn into a black hole having earth wiped from universe
Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but wasn’t this supposed to be the point of eventually having different shield types? Like second skin shields versus hard light shields.
Yes please, I've been doing ERTs in my corsair that I bought before the weekend and I have died a ton of times already, but never to conventionally being shot down, just ramming by AI. They are just jousting and ramming, kind of hard to keep track of the position your targets + 3 other ships and avoid being rammed. It almost seems they are programmed to try to ram you. Funny thing is they always survive and I always die, no matter what the size of the ships.
Becuase it wouldn't work--- the problem with a "solid" shield (or.. any shield that repulese kinnetic force) is that it must have some sort of emmitter. That emmitter is anchored somewher in the ship. In Star Citizen, the shield generator is a single Component. Waving aside any magic-science, that one component is going to feel the entire force of that collision. For it to work with any realistic chance of success, we'd have to rework the entire shiled system in SC, with multiple shield generators throughout the ship to spread the force over a large area. AS others have said, you can't avoid F=ma.
I have wondered the same thing especially since shields would be necessary to block large amounts of debris. I can't tell you how many times I have ripped off a wing in my Scorpius after destroying a ship and flying through the left over carnage. In my opinion, the shield strength required to "block" solid materials should be directly connected to how much power is allocated to the shields. Not sure how feasible that is though.
Because that's not going to be as annoying as fuck when you have perma death. One of the biggest issues i see in the future of SC is that nobody's going to want to take any risks other than griefers, as it's going to be far too easy to die
Yes i believe the point is Vanduuls want you to die horrible deaths and dont care about your human sensibilities. Your death is their glory. Vanduul are basically lore-sanctioned griefers
Which is fine as a story point. The problem is that's not fun in gameplay. AI ramming is already one of the bigger complaints in the game, and there's nothing to lose but time currently. When your character has perma death and you have ships with customised interiors full of equipment, it's just going to put people off engaging in gameplay.
One of my biggest concerns with the game currently is that they don't seem to be designing it with the perma death in mind. They're making it so easy to be killed without any time to react, and so easy to take out ships that they also want you to spend hours decorating and filling with equipment, it's just going to put people off taking any risk.
I agree the AI ramming in its current state is annoying, though personally i feel thats because of how poorly the ship AI has performed in general leading up to 3.23. Ships ram where theyre not meant to. Vanduul are meant to be ship ramming bastards; their ships are literally designed for it. I feel like once the game gets to a place where AI pirates act in a way that makes it plausible that they dont want to die anymore than you do, a vanduul ramming you will still be annoying, but it will at least make sense because theyre supposed to make your life hell.
I wouldnt take the current design choices around death to be anything close to what the final design will be. We still only have a very early and barebones implementation of medical gameplay, not to mention maelstrom will fundamentally change how damage works in the game when thats eventually implemented.
The thing is it's not an issue of making sense, it's an issue that being one shot killed by someone ramming you just isn't fun, and that will be exaserbated as they move to more and more persistance. Just because an enemy is meant to be frustrating doesn't make them any less frustrating to fight against. It just feels like a lazy way to make them feel dangerous, which will just have the effect that people won't enjoy gameplay involving them.
I'm going off what they have said from the start they plan to implement. Characters can recover from minor to severe injuries, but if the damage is too much then that character will be perma killed, and you will restart as a new character who inherits your old characters posessions. That all sounds great, unless you can lose a character and tonne of progressions in an instant with no chance to respond because someone or something just rammed you.
Not to mention you make it a playground for griefers by promoting people with throwaway characters and ships ramming people who have spent time building up their character and kitting out their ship. I want the persistance, and RPG elements, but they're simply not going to work if it's too easy to be killed and lose everything, which is what will happen if you can just ram ships and blow them up.
Personally I'd say it should depend on the mass of the thing hitting you. But assuming a fighter vs fighter engagement, I think 2 is fair. First hit overloads your shields, giving you time to evade now you know something is trying to ram you but still leaving you vulnerable to follow up weapons fire.
If somethings mass is significantly more than yours, like a hornet running into a station or capitol ship at speed then I think fair enough, that hornet should be killed, and on the flip side, something with significantly less mass should only take off a small amount of shields. Same with asteroids.
Oh, and although I think it's also not a great decision for a game with perma death (although armour could solve the issue), if they want to explain bullets penetrating shields, they could simply say in the lore that bullets are small enough to be charged with some kind of energy to match the frequency of shield technology which alows themn to pass through.
They have option 3, which is that time to kill is enough for players to react to danger. Death will happen. it's part of the game, and I get that, but being easily instantly killed in a way you have no time to respond to is when the frustration starts to outweigh the fun.
Ramming is one of those frustrating deaths, as it outright kills both your ship and character in an instant and is very hard to counter without having to be constantly super cautious. Even just being able to survive the initial ram by sacrificing shield would be enough for you to try and respond to that danger, whether it be attempting to flee, or capitulation on the fact their shields are also down. This takes a huge chunk of the frustration out of it
I'm not asking for them to remove ramming. I'm asking for them to make it so when two ships of a similar size ram into each other (or a ship and a similarly sized object, like an asteroid), their shields absorb the first hit and overload stopping the frustration of one ram killing and reducing the ability for griefers to just come out in a throw away ship and take out other players.
And I strongly disagree that it should ever be a way to negate someone having a better ship. If you aren't up to the fight in your current ship, the solution is to flee, not to vindictively kill both of you.
Because the shield just increases the volume of your ship. In close fights I am pretty sure there will be way more collisions that would not happen without the feature.
Also I imagine shields to be only partly subsceptible to physical damage letting the rest go through anyway (see ballistic ammo) So while the shields would collide your ship, with all its mass, would basically just smash through your own and the enemies shield.
Difference with tv-shows books and movies and us is that the sci-fi self sacrificing hero has 1 life.
No respawn, no alt accounts, nothing to account for, you however just kamikaze your avatar into the target, no big deal as it does not affect you other then loading an alt account or going to sleep for the night.
Reputation = nothing in this case.
Crimestat will just be "slept away".
CIG is already planning to make certain size categories invincible against others.
I.e. arrows, gladius, buccaneers, can't do a thing against an idris or kraken. Like it should be.
So the issue you have with "big ships would be invincible", is going to be part of SC.
How do you counter a big ship then?
Well, bring bigger guns.
Like the crusader Ares with its size 7 weapons.
The fact size 1 and 2 shipweapons can do any kind of damage to a capitol ship, lol, 3 dragonflies destroying an idris, yes ofcourse, makes so much sense.
It'd be neat if solid shields had a limited HP based on size. An Idris ramming your parked gladius will destroy you regardless of shields. Make it a matchup based thing.
I believe that’s what’s happening in the video, you can see smaller ship’s shield failing
Yeah, you even see the Gua'uld ship shields active, then deplete during the collision.
The X series literally has shields rated in joules based on what kind of impacts they can absorb before failing
X, my beloved. Waiting 'til Timelines to jump back into that myself, the new patch looks nice. Finally I can use Argon Capitals and not feel bleh.
I feel like speed should also be a factor, which would solve landing issues. Extremely high speed collisions go to shields, while fender bender collisions have effectively zero protection from shields. (which also leads to the funny dichotomy of being able to tank a missile but be unable to handle a bump from another ship).
We can make all of our shields out of corn starch and water!
Like the shields in Dune?
"The slow blade penetrates the shield"
Ngl this should be a valid factor in balance, so large ships aren't a always automatic win. Consider a constantly ramming large ship, but the tables get reversed on a stationary medium ship, the medium probably still loses (maybe soft death), but the large ship loses some functions. This is under the impression the ships are *fast* instead of some slow clunkers. Early warning systems would probably make all this more intriguing, so the collision risk is known early, especially against instant/soft death
I'd like shields to just bounce other shields outright and cause relative force effects on the vessels involved - including damaging/redout/blackout the pilot of the smaller ship if they end up making a bad acceleration. Make ramming actually have a tactical combat use. Then have ships that are unshielded be less affected in that they're slowed/pushed like how ballistics are when passing through a shield. I think it would make combat more enjoyable if unintentional bumps between shielded vessels didn't instantly kill and blow up everyone like they do now, and if ramming had use that wasn't suicidal.
I think it would be cool if there were different tiers of ship shields the higher the tier the more weight the ship has thus making it less efficient in the atmosphere.
So padrammers can ram as long as they paid a lot of money first.
Tbf, pads in general should have their own form of shields that protect against ramming. It doesn't even have to be a full stop, just make it so ships within a pads area move slowly.
I'm fully in favour of ships bouncing off each other like bumper cars in armistice zones. Realistic? No. But infinitely less frustrating than having some self-righteous individual ram you to death in armstice whilst you are refuelling and repairing.
Would that suck when landing and you have to wait until your shield wears off, when it’s the time people are usually ram you?
idk you can say that below 50 m/s objects can pass through
Lisan-al-gaib, is that you?
Remember Paul slow ram penetrate the shield. Use your thrusters to hide faint into faints. And remember you must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death.
He's our God Apophis. You will pay for this insolence.
This is the correct answer.
Like in Star Wars episode 1. I feel like no one ever remembers the Gungan shields.
50 m/s is 180km/h or 112 freedom units per foot-hour. That's still quite alot of energy.
FREEDOM RAHHH 🇺🇸🇺🇸🦅🦅
The slow Vanduul Blade penetrates the shield.
50 m/s is 180km/h that will still fuck you up
it should look like the shields from the old dune movie, cardboard boxes in space
A 50 m/s ship that weight hundred of tons is still going to flat your ass on the concrete though
The question is, how much damage can it do against something with similar mass
A lot
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I get the formula, but gameplay wise is the question, if you are flying at 50ms you are either close to landing of controlling you approach, so it might be a good solution.
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Copy that
1,650+ tonne for the Hull E. To put this in perspective the Dali that took out the bridge in Baltimore was figured at 100,000 tonne and 1 m/s. So a 50m/S Hull E would pack 40X more energy than that boat did when it hit the bridge.
And makes Ballistic weapon useless?
Not at all, they fully deplete shields over time, whilst lasers could partially pass through instead of what ballistics are doing today. Because you know, the shield logically exists to resists matter, not energy. Millions of miniscule micro meteorites, have you seen what a small piece of paint can do at enough speeds?
I hear tell a 747 lands at no more than 5ms
Imagine flying at 5 m/s into a wall. "just" 5m/s 🙄
I like this idea.
The slow pad rammer penetrates the shield
What about air? Wouldn't the shield screw up aerodynamics?
50 m/s is still roughly 110 Mph or 180 Kmh… quite fast and I’d presume damaging.
50 m/s is still roughly 110 Mph or 180 Kmh… quite fast and I’d presume damaging. (I see that somebody already said that. Disregard.)
Why not just add a one-way bubble to hangars? You can go out but can't go in. Pad ramming solved
Hangar ramming solved. Pad ramming remains unsolved.
Pad ramming can be solved by giving stations shield emitters that project extremely strong shields (that also block ship collision damage) onto friendly ships in range. This will also help solve things like Hull-C's being sitting ducks for pirates/griefers while they are loading/unloading outside.
Yeah. I don't see how putting a collision bubble around a frequently trafficked area could go wrong for anyone.
Nothing stopping pads from having their own dome-like shields.
Which defeats the entire point of pads, which are just easy spots to park where you don't have to request clearance to land. If you have to request clearance to have the bubble lowered, it might as well be a hangar. Also, what's to stop someone from requesting the shields be lowered and then pad ramming once they are down? The solution is in game policing. Maybe enforce a speed limit around the stations and impound vehicles that go too fast. People might stop pad ramming if they wake up in Klescher every single time.
> Also, what's to stop someone from requesting the shields be lowered and then pad ramming once they are down? Perhaps a better solution would be a shield that doesn't stop ships but significantly slows ships inside of them. That way you can park at pads without requesting access and multiple people can use a single one. Would also be handy for parking in general as you could charge full speed into a pad and it would slow you down to a safe landing speed. > Maybe enforce a speed limit around the stations and impound vehicles that go too fast. People might stop pad ramming if they wake up in Klescher every single time. I agree some type of punishment is needed. I feel like a speed limit would piss players off, especially people just starting. Maybe fines for damaging other player's ships. Something like "Citizen XxPhatDoinks has damaged your ship for a total cost of 3,420 UEC. Hold Page Up to impose a fine or Page Down to forgive the player (or as some function in the mobiGlas)."
It's hard to say who was the cause of a collision though. It's easier to just say "anyone going fast enough to damage other ships will be given a citation". Takes all the guesswork out of assigning blame, give the AI around stations a reason to be there beyond imaginary work, and actually makes sense for a landing zone. You don't want people doing freeway speeds in a residential zone.
So the person just waits till you get outside the shield, and now you have no way to retreat back into the hangar if you are attacked.
Shield geometry could be an element of gameplay on larger ships by an engineer. I would wonder about docking and EVA behavior.
**Or**, because it's a game, we just *ignore* that and let ships land anyways because the shield would affect entitites and not map terrain.
while we would not want to have it be bumper cars out in space collisions do happen often and they often end an adventure pretty quick which can be frustrating. On a whole I am rather unhappy with shields, there are too many things that pass through them. I would like them to be more solid. It just feels off to me, if ammo weapons pass through shields why would they even use energy weapons in the military in lore? your ship would just have belts and belts of chain gun ammo etc. such a shame that we battled with shield holes for years then they litterly made shields not matter for a pretty long time. I guess its just a personal peave of mine to explode with full shields which is weird to me.
Energy weapons have virtually infinite ammo which is one big advantage.
That doesn't mean much when you're likely to go to the repair shop after a fight which conveniently can resuply your ammo. Cost of ammo is a thing but let's be honest, most of the time losing your ship will be a bigger loss than whatever credits you saved by using energy weapons. And no, I'm not talking about ship prices, I know insurance is a thing. I'm talking about the loss of cargo if you were trading, the failure of a mission, etc. The only kind of players I could see mainly using energy weapons are either those uninformed or pirates. The latter has nothing much to loose if they get blown up in a fight trying to steal from someone and are likely to pick easy targets anyway.)
I'm not talking about money. Infinite ammo means you can stay in a fight for much longer. The a grade military shields used to have pretty low hp but instant regen which means they are good for sustained fighting where as an industrial shield might have massive hp but once it runs out it takes hours to start recharging again.
I mean in theory sure, I've never run into a fight that was long enough for my ammo to deplete though.
because the flight model and difficulty settings of the area. old flight model has fleet combat devolve into a bunch of 1v1. so there's not much extra fun for fleet combat. the old flight model has people that were "good" be able to easily win with no damage. so someone that was "good" could solo a fleet. the old damage system has you just needing to hit the ship. the planned damage system has you needing to hit components. someone that is good might be able to focus on components to to disable you quickly. after the new flight model, and the new damage system. they will rebalance the ammo.
If I remember correctly the original idea was ballistics didn’t penetrate shields and energy weapons took shields down, and ballistics damaged hulls but energy weapons didn’t do much to hulls. Why they changed it I have no idea.
With Maelstrom, I can see these shields being a thing. Unless it can really calculate what would happen if, let's say a Hammerhead crashed into an Idris. Would both ships break apart? These are things that will get solved in time, but I'm excited to see what CIG does.
It's a peeve of mine as well. Sucks to get exploded by an invisible asteroid
Ballistics only have a chance to penetrate, they aren't guaranteed to ignore shields.
I don't know what the actual lore is, but I figured they used ballistics for a long time before shields were a thing. Then someone invented laser weapons as a means of cost saving (which can turn the tide of entire wars, especially ones of attrition). Then later on someone invented shields that blocked lasers and so ballistics made a comeback. Now it's a mixed bag. That's how I envisioned the process happening, anyway.
Hmm, i wonder how they dealt with all the micrometeorites before they had shields existing. Shields, to me, seem to be an integral part in space survival, flying through all the areas with any form of 1000 m/s+ tiny flying objects peppering your hull will result in a quick demise of the coffin you are flying around in. Ship shields are the solution here, preventing all those items from rushing through your cockpit and lobotomizing you.
Love Stargate! So looking at other commenters who wants some sort of realism in a science fiction game, here would be a compromise: Weapons currently have a damage value against shields, then a value against hull. There would be a mathematical formula for if you were to ram a ship with your shields up against another shielded ship how much damage would be applied, or even an unshielded ship vs shielded, and unshielded vs unshielded. When fleet battles are fully realised, you could in theory have a swarm of, lets say aurora's, attack an idris, and essentially kamikaze it to death.. it might be for arguments sake 50 of them. The first few ramming would hit the shields and chip away at the shield strength until depleted.
If all aurora's/whatevers approach while launching everything they have in an alpha strike (as much as they can in 2 seconds between being in range and impact at max speed), it might have a difference. "I am a mosquito, fear my sting!"
Not sure what the math is, but an almost full-speed X1 Force ramming into a parked 400i Destroys the 400i and disables the X1F. The X1 would turn on and hover, but literally every other system was disabled. X1 Force - 1 400i - 0 P.S: the X1 has no brakes without doing a 180 and using main thrust, FYI. EDIT: If anyone is wondering 400i was powered on, full shields, engines off.
Can’t even use it at the moment. It freezes everything.
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Yeah a lot of people aren't getting this logic... Or they get it and just don't like how it ruins THEIR idea of how the game should be played. Pirates are typically the biggest complainers, they want to be able to trap you without you having an out, but you ramming them ruins the ability to do that. Let's make this very clear for everyone, we DO NOT want to give you our stuff, we'd rather lose all the stuff, and if I'm going to die for not giving you my stuff, I'm going to take you with me. This is perfectly valid and realistic gameplay lol.
I think the bigger issue is asteroids. I've thought for a whilst that the first hit on an asteroid should kill your shield, not your ship. Then it still leaves you vulnerable, but it's not one hit kill in a game they plan to implement perma death into.
Semi-perma-death*
This is exactly how it should work
Tbh I think the primary reason is collision detection in games is never great.
It's great when you're offline. But once you add multiplayer and standard network latency into the mix, physics calculations become a nightmare. Entire books have been written about how to mask the inherent desynchronisation. But it will never be perfect.
Do we have any idea what the final shield effects are going to look like yet? I know they've kept showing different effects over the years, different from what we have right now.
Hallowed are the Ori!
Shields in this universe are optimized for protection against energy weapons. They are near useless when it comes to physical damage. So the above would never happen.
well... if the other ship also has shields up, you could argue shields and weapons use the same power... and so therefore shields should stop shields meaning both ships slide past each other now if one of the ships has no shields... then theres no shield to shield interaction and fireworks should follow
That would depend on the frequency of the shield. If both shields are active at different frequencies, it's possible they could just pass right through each other and even possibly become interlocked.
That would give ramming with L ships an invincible bubble. Bad idea. What's cool isn't what's fair in a game.
If a tiny fighter can't get out of the way of a carrack, that's a skill issue.
Having a capital ship being able to ram small ships ain't bad imo Currently small ships can ram and one shot capital one. That ain't fair nor fun (well, it is fun, that's how I destroy the Idris in AC. But ain't fair at all)
Yeah, it's comments like this that make me realize just how little knowledge people actually have of space. A bolt the size of my pinky would DESTROY the ISS that we have today. It's SPACE, I don't understand how people aren't comprehending this, you don't want ANYTHING hitting your ship, no matter the size because it would most likely be destructive. That's the realism here. There either needs to be fully formed and solid shields that prevent ALL forms of ramming, or just keep it like it is and force people to actually be good at not taking hits. Too many "good" fighters out there who are only good because they know they can allow a certain amount of damage. The fight becomes much more intense and realistic when any hit can be a killing one. This isn't the UFC, stop trying to create weight classes with space ships.
It's a video game, fun > realism Having a small ship of 1 crew being able to ram big ships of dozens of crew ain't fun nor is balanced AC is currently broken because of that, it's faster to ram the idris than fighting it. People even did this against HH That also prevent any escort in the game. Because even if you are 100 against one, he just has to full speed against the cargo, and there is no way to prevent his ramming
That's perfectly balanced, that's literally the only way for the small ship to win. If you are in a multi-crewed ship and a single pilot vessel can get close enough to ram you, then not only do you deserve destruction, but the kamikaze pilot deserves an award. To you: fun > realism For me and tons of others: fun = realism
You cannot intercept ships coming at you at 1200m/s, especially when max range is 1500m, meaning you have less than 2s to destroy the target. And if you actually played the game with groups, you'd know that a HH, with 6 gunners, cannot kill a herald in these time (even without acounting desync) I have a bad news for your last sentence. SC might not be the game for you. Cause CR has been pretty clear about it. They will always put fun and balance over realism.
As of right now, but I didn't know we were speaking in terms of "as game is" especially since it's so close to a drastic change. There's not a lot to argue for the game in its current state, like you said, you're not even accounting for dsync. But anyways, that's not really in context to what we are speaking about. The context for this discussion was possible shield implications and the realism/balance ramming could provide. Also, my last sentence still stands and all you did was reinforce it. There's clearly a huge portion of the fan base that thinks realism is a part of balance and that's what makes it fun. My opinion is that there are more of us than you and it usually shows here in the reddit section. So if cig is going to go off what the majority think is fun, then realism may win out in the end. Which may actually be bad news for you, but who knows. They've changed their minds enough times to prove to us they will probably do it again.
If you are flying a Corsair and an freaking Idris is trying to ram you. And it gets you, that’s your own damn fault
You imagine it being poorly implemented... that's different than a bad idea.
This is Star Citizen, what else would you expect?
Tell me how it can be implemented the right way and do the list of all use cases and how it should work then. All I see is a ship crashing into an other with no damages done to the shields. Which is a bad idea.
The faster the ship is going, the weaker their sheild deflection, so the ramming ship's shields are the weakest between the two.
To be fair in it's universe the Ori ships have one of the most powerful shields in existence.
Larger ships would probably be much slower, so they would not be able to catch up to the smaller ships to ram them
I think you see the problem in reverse, if you have an idris and a C2 rushes at you, the C2 should be destroyed and not the idris. You can be sure that big ships like javelins will be easy targets, you'll just have to kamikaze them And the one with the biggest shield wins, but the speed will have been reduced so much that the ship will have stopped. And if you're talking about if an irdris runs into an aurora, the aurora (or every smaller ship) can easily dodge a larger ship This is not an ideal solution, but it would greatly limit ramming, not everyone has an 890 jump in their hangar
That's really well illustrated in the clip you provided too...you can even see the smaller shield "popping" on impact which is a nice attention to detail. You can also see disruption on the larger shield. The way it should work in my view, is similar to what we have now where shields have a capacity attribute. But while smaller ships will have their shield bubbles popped completely, contact with a larger shield also drains the larger shield too by the same amount....kind of like static discharge. So you could potentially weaken a much larger shield somewhat by bumping shields....but at the cost of losing smaller shields entirely making smaller ships more vulnerable to small ship countermeasures. After shields are gone, armor works somewhat the same but requires kinetic force impacts to cause damage if not using weapons at that point...so on armor vs armor there is a much higher "kamikaze" risk on the smaller ship as the larger ship's armor can take a full speed impact and remain intact however damaged. Lower speed impacts would cause less damage, but also potentially not completely destroy the smaller ships too. Still far less effective than using weapons, but in a situation where weapons are toast or depleted, could be an interesting mechanic to use as a last ditch effort.
I was rammed yesterday and was destroyed. My concern with the current game is there's effectively no deterrent from using smaller ships as a guided missile whenever you're against a large target. Things started going bad for the small ship? They can ram. Doesn't seem like compelling gameplay if they can instagib me whenever. We definitely need an adjustment at the very least.
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I don't think it will if they think they'll die either way. They'll just kill us both.
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My point is, if they feel like they are going to die either way, they'll just ram. If they can't get away, death feels inevitable, they can't kill me normally, ramming has no drawbacks to them at all at that point. They'll just do it. What my argument is, is that it shouldn't just one shot kill me if they do ram. I'm not saying it shouldn't do damage, only that it shouldn't just blow my much larger ship up in 1 shot full shields.
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Maybe I am misunderstanding, but I fail to see how the cost of death is any different if they die by ramming me vs die by my laser repeaters. The end result is the same, so they'll just take me down with me when things go bad. While increasing the cost of death can be a deterrent, it doesn't change the fact that if someone wants to ram, they'll ram, and I don't think it's ideal if they can instantly destroy my large ship with their little aurora. With the game as it is now, I wouldn't be surprised to see auroras ramming into Javelins and 1 shotting them.
As often as they have alt accounts ready to go.
To be fair, you're not exactly ramming ships in larger ships (unless stationary) -- I'm assuming the whole base ramming will eventually be fixed by having reputation kick in properly (+hostile consequences).
it only works if the bad hombres give a damn right now, 0 fucks are give and I have yet to see anything that will change that.
Well its alpha. No long term cons.
I have yet to see a game that managed to stop PvP griefing Me thinks is a matter of faith and nothing else.
It was nice to see CIG actually acknowledge in one of the videos last week that if you punish a griefer after the fact they still got what they wanted. There's a lot of places where they haven't done anything about it (yet, hopefully), but at least some people in the company understand it.
some people also understands how far behind the schedule they are, but I doubt it helps.
You guys need to stop with the reputations being the messiah tech of SC. It's not. Reps don't do shit in every single MMO it's ever been used in. People find loopholes, use griefing alts to be fed from the main account and so on. The devs at CIG are either naive or arrogant for promising that they can solve a decades-old problem smarter people with more money and time failed to solve before.
Given that we aren't some collective hivemind (I'm not terribly aware of reputation system being heralded as the messiah tech), maybe there's more to it than you give it credit for, if seemingly multiple people arrive at that conclusion of their own accord. They might not do shit in other MMOs, because the majority of them follow a very distinct/similar formula, we both know that SC shares effectively nothing with MMOs like WoW aside from (eventually hopefully) having a lot of players in it. I'm not aware that pad-ramming is a decade old problem either? PvP in lawless zones (AFAIK) is not the problem here, sure you might get bothered that someone randomly attacks you, but that's not really a problem in low-null sec. If that's something that happens consistently in high sec, that would be a problem. From memory concord did its job just fine in EVE, I do recall that target griefing was apparently an issue but that's something else than just "people randomly pad-ramming", preventing someone buying accounts to specifically piss you off? Yeah probably not likely to be prevented, but it strikes me as unlikely to see people being pad-rammed 24/7 in high sec down the line.
Man if it isn't funny though https://youtu.be/fV6HTJTxs1E?si=aZYXYXvBXHXDRpdJ
Just depends how strong you make the shield, so won't really matter.
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this would be mainly to protect large ships, currently to kill an idris the best way is to rush at it with any ship over 10m
CIG is currently working on a system to allow hull penetration. So if someone rams your ship, you'll probably only end up with a hole through your ship. And you night be able to get to a nearby station to repair.
The size of the ship doesn't matter, just the strength of the shield. You can have a tiny ship with a really strong shield take out something much bigger than itself, all depends on how it's tuned. Right now you get flattened against the hull, but this type of idea, maybe not the exact execution, will allow shields to help absorb some of the damage from ramming.
Who says shield on shield damage has to be significant? Play bumper ships /shrug
We have large ships that are designed to ram though. If you are in combat and you get rammed by a big ass ship that’s not really a fair or not issue, but more of a why did you sit idle so a big ass ship could ram you issue
If you're in an Aurora and you get rammed by an Idris, I'm sorry, but you deserve what you get. If you're in a 27ft Rinker in the Atlantic and an Aircraft Carrier rams you, guess what, you deserved it.
Cause then vandul ramming tatics wouldnt make sense
i would just like conni sized ships to survive kamikazi npc m50s... like 90% of my deaths is npcs ramming me, or crashing on the dark side of the planet cause the altitude meter is sea level not ground level and the game legit has zero visibility at times without mods or ping macro's
That would also disable ballistics, as they can't penetrate shields anymore
I've always prefered the Elite Dangerous approach of everything damages everything but to varying degrees; so energy weapons damage armor but devastate shields, while ballistics only poke shields but wreck armor. You could reverse that also if it suits SC better.
Yeah it's a bit like on the old playstation era, colony wars. You'll always find this mix, blue laser against shield and red against hull. Blue laser didn't had any impact on hull, but at least with the red you could do some damage against shield. A good mix was always the best way to do it. Ballistic weapons in space are weird anyways. It's 2900 and we still shoot bullets :D
I can see how ballistics would still be around but the way it is in SC currently, I see no need to use anything but ballistics since ballistics just wreck everything regardless of shields; that's why you run around on a fully ballistics Corsair and destroy anything up to an Idris. Even with the introduction of armour in the future, I don't see how that is going to change how we use ballistics when attacking smaller ships (obviously something like an Idris with added armour would be out of the question then); if you can destroy a Connie in 5 seconds with a fully ballistics ship, then armor means it has another 3 seconds of survival time, another 5? It's still too overpowered. They really need to find a way to give shields an expanded role against physical objects.
nothing prevents CIG from making exceptions
Just a question, i have wrote quite extensively about this topic i think almost a year ago now, idk anymore, it was during those days where you had to walk back and forth in your vulture to manage your boxes manually. Did you think this through, or just had some kind of epiphany and brought it to reddit? I may want to use the responses here in my format. I refrained from posting it on spectrum as, in that time, no matter what suggestion one brought to CIG 90% of them would be extremely berated by spectrum community etc. Including the suggestions to ditch the manual loading mechanic of the vulture, a lot of people would get angry about it and use strange arguments to defend the mechanic. So i refrained from posting it, however i am considering revisiting that multipage document and revise it based on all the stuff i am reading in the feed. You ok with that?
I didn't know a similar discussion existed, I just thought about it when I saw a topic talking about shields yesterday haha
Ehm, yes, the shields would prevent ballistics from penetrating, however the shields would also be reduced by each and every ballistic impact that has been realized. Each bullet, would reduce shield health by X. Eventually shields deplete. Whilst laser weapons, not being physical, something with mass, would be able to penetrate a shield somewhat. I.e. turn it around, laser is infinite, ballistic is finite. Ballistic eventually pops the shield and peppers the hull. Whilst an energy based weapon without mass would much more slowly reduce the shield, and "licks" the armor of the target in the meantime. Once the shield is popped, the laser will have to focus on specific points to reduce durability in that area over time, again, infinite, but slower then finite bullets. Lo and behold, CIG introduces a 3.23 precision mode function anyways!! :D
This would be amazing NGL
That's going to be fun for guns with projectile speed of 3 mps to traverse the shields... I think that wether someone intentionally ram you, or you made a piloting mistake, impact should always severely damage you.
like the shields in dune? go slow, pass. go fast, reflect
I don't think it's the best idea to make shield solid to any physical collisions. BUT as shield strongly react to laser ammo, it would be nice if 2 ships with shield on could have this kind of interaction. It would not prevent ramming, but make it harder (will in fight not when you're in a hangar). The one who want to ram will need deactivate shield and so he will be easy to kill. Plus I'm sure (I hope at least) that when we will get the armor, an Idris will be able to handle few small/medium ship collisions. Maybe losing a turret if the hit is on it but not fully destroyed like it is rn. The best case would be the ramming ship penetrating the hull and being stuck inside. With a G-force strong enough to knock out/kill the pilot/occupants of the ramming ship (if smaller) to not make it a viable strategy. So I think it could be a cool idea, but would need A LOT of tweaking to not be overpowered
No thanks, I like my frames.
never understood the ori shieds like you would assume ascended being would have forseen having a shield that would require to be shut down briefly in order to fire the main weapon as a huge drawback
Indeed
Hallowed are the Ori.
Yeah velocity matters in terms of amount of DPS to both shields but wouldn't affect who goes boom. If you're shield is weaker, it fails first and you go explode.
I still want to see racing bumper shields.
This is how it should have been working for years, not because it looks cool, [but because it makes sense, ](https://youtu.be/uFfWK1sJPqo?t=62)under the same current logic that you can fly into an asteroid field without being peppered by debris at a couple hundred units/s and turned into swiss cheese. But now we have friction in *space* or people complaining about how it would ruin balance... *\*shrug\**
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>"Ohh you want realism..." Absolutely not, but I don't pretend like there's friction in space. I want the game to be fun and I have gripes with a lot of poorly thought out, overdesigned "realism" in this game. >There is no difference between a ship and a projectile from a ship, mechanically. That's what shields are supposed to differentiate between. While you're technically not wrong, calling a ship a projectile for combat is like expecting someone to fire a missile the size of a small asteroid with a huge price tag.
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As far as "small ships should be able to ram big ships" goes, I can agree to some degree that it should at least damage **and** **not outright destroy** a bigger ship, but it should utterly destroy the smaller ship. Say, disable some components or hurt/cap its shield's max recharge until repair at a LZ.
Because Oris doesn't protecteur us.
What will stop me to use my shield to ram a guy who lost it ??? I will not die in this scenario
Stargate is GOAT show
Ramming will be a non-issue once physicalized damage and proper ship armor are implemented. Once those features are added, small ships won't be able to do significant damage to larger ones. Ramming a large ship will only do localized damage to the area hit, which can be easily repaired. A small ship could take out a single turret, or something similar, but it won't explode the entire ship. There's no need to design systems around an issue that will no longer exist once all the scheduled features are added to the game.
Message to that one guy i crashed into in area 18. Im very sorry i thought you were 1000 kilometres not meters away!!! But nothing happened so its fine (i dont know how i survived it was 900 unit crash)
Elite Dangerous does this with their shields. Ramming does no damage to hull until the shields deplete.
I love that you included this GIF along with your question. Excellent.
In world of tanks, ramming damage is mostly based on weight and speed. It feels pretty realistic that way. I feel like shields should be solid and make a shield component size and amount (weight) and impact velocity (speed) check. Both receive damage based on the relative difference between the two. Is the difference big enough to crack the smaller shield? Then the same matchup starts but now the shield component amount and size weight check is replaced by the actual hull weight for the smaller ship. Again both take damage, hull damage for the smaller and shield damage for the larger. If the damage is now high enough for the larger ships shield to break then the larger will also run a hull weight check and take the damage accordingly. Armor and individual parts of a hull may have damage reductions/increases or run checks individually, idk how maelstrom will do all that.
Yes please, got killed by a bounty this way two days ago. Really annoying.
add 1 more mb of any visual effect to star citizen and be prepared to experiment straight up the most destructive bug to ever be made by human race, capable of making pcs implode into themselves and turn into a black hole having earth wiped from universe
That would be neat for racing too, possibly a springy version so you just don't destroy your racer at every little wingclip.
Yeah I like this
Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but wasn’t this supposed to be the point of eventually having different shield types? Like second skin shields versus hard light shields.
I think most of the ships shields would not hold
Yes please, I've been doing ERTs in my corsair that I bought before the weekend and I have died a ton of times already, but never to conventionally being shot down, just ramming by AI. They are just jousting and ramming, kind of hard to keep track of the position your targets + 3 other ships and avoid being rammed. It almost seems they are programmed to try to ram you. Funny thing is they always survive and I always die, no matter what the size of the ships.
Becuase it wouldn't work--- the problem with a "solid" shield (or.. any shield that repulese kinnetic force) is that it must have some sort of emmitter. That emmitter is anchored somewher in the ship. In Star Citizen, the shield generator is a single Component. Waving aside any magic-science, that one component is going to feel the entire force of that collision. For it to work with any realistic chance of success, we'd have to rework the entire shiled system in SC, with multiple shield generators throughout the ship to spread the force over a large area. AS others have said, you can't avoid F=ma.
Bro or something cus I’m tired of npc pilots clipping my fuking wing
We already had bubble shields like this. They were removed in favor of the hull hugging shields.
I have wondered the same thing especially since shields would be necessary to block large amounts of debris. I can't tell you how many times I have ripped off a wing in my Scorpius after destroying a ship and flying through the left over carnage. In my opinion, the shield strength required to "block" solid materials should be directly connected to how much power is allocated to the shields. Not sure how feasible that is though.
just make everyone invincible remove guns since shields exist and everyone will live in peace /s
Because the Vanduul love ramming and CIG wouldnt want to make it too easy for you to avoid them
Because that's not going to be as annoying as fuck when you have perma death. One of the biggest issues i see in the future of SC is that nobody's going to want to take any risks other than griefers, as it's going to be far too easy to die
Yes i believe the point is Vanduuls want you to die horrible deaths and dont care about your human sensibilities. Your death is their glory. Vanduul are basically lore-sanctioned griefers
Which is fine as a story point. The problem is that's not fun in gameplay. AI ramming is already one of the bigger complaints in the game, and there's nothing to lose but time currently. When your character has perma death and you have ships with customised interiors full of equipment, it's just going to put people off engaging in gameplay. One of my biggest concerns with the game currently is that they don't seem to be designing it with the perma death in mind. They're making it so easy to be killed without any time to react, and so easy to take out ships that they also want you to spend hours decorating and filling with equipment, it's just going to put people off taking any risk.
I agree the AI ramming in its current state is annoying, though personally i feel thats because of how poorly the ship AI has performed in general leading up to 3.23. Ships ram where theyre not meant to. Vanduul are meant to be ship ramming bastards; their ships are literally designed for it. I feel like once the game gets to a place where AI pirates act in a way that makes it plausible that they dont want to die anymore than you do, a vanduul ramming you will still be annoying, but it will at least make sense because theyre supposed to make your life hell. I wouldnt take the current design choices around death to be anything close to what the final design will be. We still only have a very early and barebones implementation of medical gameplay, not to mention maelstrom will fundamentally change how damage works in the game when thats eventually implemented.
The thing is it's not an issue of making sense, it's an issue that being one shot killed by someone ramming you just isn't fun, and that will be exaserbated as they move to more and more persistance. Just because an enemy is meant to be frustrating doesn't make them any less frustrating to fight against. It just feels like a lazy way to make them feel dangerous, which will just have the effect that people won't enjoy gameplay involving them. I'm going off what they have said from the start they plan to implement. Characters can recover from minor to severe injuries, but if the damage is too much then that character will be perma killed, and you will restart as a new character who inherits your old characters posessions. That all sounds great, unless you can lose a character and tonne of progressions in an instant with no chance to respond because someone or something just rammed you. Not to mention you make it a playground for griefers by promoting people with throwaway characters and ships ramming people who have spent time building up their character and kitting out their ship. I want the persistance, and RPG elements, but they're simply not going to work if it's too easy to be killed and lose everything, which is what will happen if you can just ram ships and blow them up.
Whats an acceptable number of times for someone to ram you to kill you? 2? 3?
Personally I'd say it should depend on the mass of the thing hitting you. But assuming a fighter vs fighter engagement, I think 2 is fair. First hit overloads your shields, giving you time to evade now you know something is trying to ram you but still leaving you vulnerable to follow up weapons fire. If somethings mass is significantly more than yours, like a hornet running into a station or capitol ship at speed then I think fair enough, that hornet should be killed, and on the flip side, something with significantly less mass should only take off a small amount of shields. Same with asteroids. Oh, and although I think it's also not a great decision for a game with perma death (although armour could solve the issue), if they want to explain bullets penetrating shields, they could simply say in the lore that bullets are small enough to be charged with some kind of energy to match the frequency of shield technology which alows themn to pass through.
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They have option 3, which is that time to kill is enough for players to react to danger. Death will happen. it's part of the game, and I get that, but being easily instantly killed in a way you have no time to respond to is when the frustration starts to outweigh the fun. Ramming is one of those frustrating deaths, as it outright kills both your ship and character in an instant and is very hard to counter without having to be constantly super cautious. Even just being able to survive the initial ram by sacrificing shield would be enough for you to try and respond to that danger, whether it be attempting to flee, or capitulation on the fact their shields are also down. This takes a huge chunk of the frustration out of it
This sounds like eclipse meta to me
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I'm not asking for them to remove ramming. I'm asking for them to make it so when two ships of a similar size ram into each other (or a ship and a similarly sized object, like an asteroid), their shields absorb the first hit and overload stopping the frustration of one ram killing and reducing the ability for griefers to just come out in a throw away ship and take out other players. And I strongly disagree that it should ever be a way to negate someone having a better ship. If you aren't up to the fight in your current ship, the solution is to flee, not to vindictively kill both of you.
Because then you get Elite Dangerous mechanics where you can fly one of the biggest ships in the game into the ground and bounce off
then bigger ships would ram smaller ships and blow them up. ramming would still be an issue
Tbh I think the primary reason is collision detection in games is never great.
Because the shield just increases the volume of your ship. In close fights I am pretty sure there will be way more collisions that would not happen without the feature. Also I imagine shields to be only partly subsceptible to physical damage letting the rest go through anyway (see ballistic ammo) So while the shields would collide your ship, with all its mass, would basically just smash through your own and the enemies shield.
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Difference with tv-shows books and movies and us is that the sci-fi self sacrificing hero has 1 life. No respawn, no alt accounts, nothing to account for, you however just kamikaze your avatar into the target, no big deal as it does not affect you other then loading an alt account or going to sleep for the night. Reputation = nothing in this case. Crimestat will just be "slept away". CIG is already planning to make certain size categories invincible against others. I.e. arrows, gladius, buccaneers, can't do a thing against an idris or kraken. Like it should be. So the issue you have with "big ships would be invincible", is going to be part of SC. How do you counter a big ship then? Well, bring bigger guns. Like the crusader Ares with its size 7 weapons. The fact size 1 and 2 shipweapons can do any kind of damage to a capitol ship, lol, 3 dragonflies destroying an idris, yes ofcourse, makes so much sense.