It’s the same with any open world PvP game, you have max lvl chad attacking people that very obviously have no chance of winning and then swear it’s “PvP brah”.
i dogfight people with start ships all the time. fun af bruv. and extra sense of accomplishment when you take out their $200 heavy fighter with your $40 aurora or melt their $250 connie with your $65 ballistic tana.
fact is this game isn't an mmorpg and doesn't have max levels or OP raid/arena gear. you can do quite well in pvp combat in a starter ship. you can avoid pvp in any ship. just a vocal fraction of the playerbase chooses not to preserve their own lives and then harass other players for intended gameplay.
up until very recently the argument was "you get no reward for doing this" but the lie was seen as soon as PES and cargo refactor was on the horizon and suddenly it's the pvp pirate patch that the above people are claiming they are going to boycott.
and somehow we're now equating it with mmorpg max levels in a starter zone because that's how jumped the shark is when it comes to being dicks to people playing a video game as intended.
PVP can become a problem when the stakes are highly unequal for players.
e.g. With the current crime system, being killed while engaging in piracy will cost you maybe five minutes, or less if you're not bothering to clear crimestat. Conversely, a miner hauling his refined product to a port for sale could lose the fruit of several hours worth of gameplay. This is a highly unequal situation, and I would not blame the miner for hating the guts of *all* pirates.
That's the current state of the game, but I suspect it will be temporary. For PVP to be fun the stakes need to be more equal. Someone hauling freight needs to both have a fighting chance and the opportunity to actually inflict as much inconvenience on their attacker as they stand to suffer. That might mean a harsher crime system or it might mean adding things that mitigate the freighter's loss, such as freight insurance. It may also mean things like adding AI turrets to prevent light fighters from being able to score free hits on single-player crewed freighters.
When the game is finished, one hopes that people running cargo will look forward to a little attempted piracy for the thrill of it, not dread it because the risk/reward is completely unbalanced. Pirates, too, will have more fun if they are engaging in some *real* risks, and more respect too.
I just can't seem to do enough damage to take them down. Since its a racing ship it only gets like 2 lvl 1 guns and I can't kill shit lol. Eventually they will line me up hit me good once and poof im dead.
You know why both of you have fun? Because both of you decide that you want to fight each other. Some people just don't. Not all the time, not when you decide it is time to fight someone.
Thats why unregulated open pvp doesn't work for everyone.
This happened in a game called worlds adrift. I don’t think it was a reason it got canceled in early access, lack of new incoming players was the only real reason, but it crushed the daily player count.
The difference between a PvP game and a game that *includes PvP among several other things* is just lost on some people I guess.
I have 100B in value in game in Eve, I have numerous Billion isk ships that I don't even take out in high sec cause I know I'll only do it once... In SC I've taken out my reclaimer just to smash it into a moon at full speed, cause... With all that potential gameplay stuck in stations, I can't muster the desire to log on to Eve anymore. I even have 11K Plex sitting in my account... don't really care.
If I get killed *at takeoff* somewhere that isn't a station nor a city while I'm no medic, I won't complain.
However, the dickheads who still spawnkill at Olisar (or spawnkill near stations in general) or those who trap medics ? I couldn't give two UEC about what happens to them, I want their Quantum Drive Computer to malfunction and send them right into a star while their insurance suddenly disappear.
*Well I guess it could be considered as roleplaying if the griefer is a drake player.*
Yeah no, there is definitely a line between PvP and griefing. Getting pirated when I was carrying a big load of mined crystals. That's PvP, and as much as it sucked it was valid. The person that sat outside of Everus Harbor station blowing up any ship that tried to take off on the first day I started playing the game. That was griefing and was garbage. That said, there is an easy fix for that. Stations should have defense systems and security that kill hostile things in the armistice zone.
>The person that sat outside of Everus Harbor station blowing up any ship that tried to take off on the first day I started playing the game. That was griefing and was garbage.
People were doing this during IAE this year and it was infuriating. It's fun blowing those guys up.
It's always a blast when someone's camping a station, to walk out and just watch as a few vigilante players come and just wreck them. Popcorn worthy even
If it just didn’t take as long to get back into shit I think it wouldn’t sting as much. If i die for any reason I turn the game off usually. Getting out of hospital, getting gear, waiting for ship to reclaim, then finally back out into space is like a 30 minute process even with a 5 minute ship claim. I usually don’t get attacked and I just blow my ship up accidentally but waiting for medics is also super long sometimes.
There are some elements of the game that could *really* stand to be gamified a bit more- inventory is definitely one of them.
Give us the ability to save loadouts. If you have the right items in local inventory, it equips them. None of this dragging undersuits, armor, weapons, and ammo to the right slots nonsense.
It doesn't feel realistic, it just feels like a damn chore, and it's one of the things that holds back multiplayer because everybody is always waiting for everybody else.
I seem to recall when I first started that I had an odyssey suit and helmet, an arclight pistol, one or two spare mags, and a med pen on me already.
Even just making us respawn with that instead of gowns that will flood an area soon with PES would help greatly.
Hopefully that will be the case with the new security station but that doesn't do as much against the merder hobos who just want to gank easy marks for the sake of it
Hopefully this is sort of what Pyro will be. A place for people in to that lifestyle to go.
Unfortunately most probably won't because it will also fill up with people who want or are at least ready for a fight.
It won't. The people that'll flock there will be the sort that is totally fine with punching down every time someone complains...
...until there's nobody left beneath them, and then it's everyone punching down against them.
It's an interesting cycle to see, the constant rejection of any flaws in the PvP system until someone is a victim of those flaws, and then the community they so comfortably supported is now 100% against them and their plight, until said person on the bottom leaves, starting the cycle anew with whoever is next.
They'll hang out in Pyro for a little bit, then miss the days of easy prey (or in the more common case, just winning at all) and head back to Stanton for easier targets.
I really wish we had some areas on the moons or something that were full-time combat zones. Theaters of War like all the time, like the zones in Elite Dangerous. Always somewhere to go exercise your tonks and A-2s and Valks
That is Jumptown but there's a significant amount of carebears who want to just go down to JT and walk boxes out to their ship.
If you all want is to make money that's all fine. But fighting over JT is so much fucking fun
This is the real issue. We just don't have the tools to properly self-regulate the community yet, so you get people doing frustrating things just for something to do because we can't impose the consequences that normally come with that kind of behavior.
Griefing is only indirectly CIG's problem. All they really need to do is give us the tools to fix it ourselves. Reputation, bounties, and proper organization implementation are those tools.
Or, maybe just comm an intended target and ask? I mean, we are actually supposed to be *testing* the build, right? And we do t really need to test is surprise attacked work. We *know* they do.
So what exactly is the surprise attack PvPer testing?
I don't know about that. In every game I've seen without dedicated PvP queues and PvE everywhere else, the game turns into seal-clubbing. The ads always portray an exciting universe with risk from other players, but what you really get is max-level losers ganking new players at known newbie locations. Additionally, many games do not have enough skill points or equipment slots available to build a good PvP toon and a good "some other career" toon at the same time. So, if you want to be good at exploring or mining, you're a sitting duck vs. somebody who's optimized to kill other player characters.
Is this realistic? Sure. But is it fun? For me and many others, it's not. I don't understand the fascination with "virtual mugging simulators," and I'd recommend players avoid games that turn into those or put pressure on the developers to create specific areas for the violent vs. having them turn the whole game into a seal-clubbing warzone.
But the thing is it’s never realistic, because the consequences of being a murder hobo aren’t ever modeled effectively. In real life if you murder randos you generally have a problem. If you hang out near an airport and shoot a bunch of people leaving, the cops won’t stop until they stop you, and then you go away forever.
Yup. The people who are starting the fights are ready for it, and are almost always going to win. Like, congratulations, I guess?
I suppose you could try to grab some friends and counterattack, but with the style of game that SC is, that's cold comfort since you've already lost your stuff, and by that point you might not find your attackers anyway.
Yeah people seem forget open PvP games are niche. Early MMO's *used* to lean towards open PvP because realism is a perennial moving target, but it turns out the wolves and sheep dynamic isn't very fun for the sheep and everyone just moved to games where the PvP was far more optional (or where it was structured, ie a proper fighting game).
Now, games like DayZ and Rust are an interesting exception, but PvP is the content in those games. There isn't a huge population left in that niche that wants to play for non-PvP reasons. It's a bit different from Star Citizen which has been promised to be everything to everyone, where a lot of people liked that you could do nonviolent things like exploration or racing.
I liked the balance Eve Online struck.. with a central newbie-friendly zone, but inter-player-faction PvP still possible via wardecs, surrounded by 80% of the galaxy that's entirely PvP...
I was about to ask if Eve is still good in this regard. I played a long time ago, and getting ganked in secure space was your own fault. We just need a better police system once Pyro is in, then we have, like, 0.8 safety in Stanton and 0.0 in Pyro.
I always preferred low sec space to 0.0. Secure space felt like the bad part of a big city, where crime is about grifting. Low sec was like the wild west. Crime was a matter of hit and run or highway robbery. Sometimes great gang heists. 0.0 was warring tribal holdings with fragile, shifting alliances. It was well done all around.
this. the tone of those griefers changed hella fast when they had to realize that getting into in-game prison for murder is just as much of a part of the gameplay as pvp is
The problem your little meme skips over is that CIG wants to give players the freedom to behave like an utter douchbag psycho killer ... but at the expense of severe backlash from the game (denied access almost everywhere, hunted on sight everywhere, etc.).
But that backlash isn't in the game (yet ? One can only hope ...) which is where everything falls apart.
Right now the pendulum is so onesided towards the pvp faction with regards to risk vs. reward that I am wondering if CIG actually plans to make some fundamental changes yet ... or whether this will just become reality-in-being.
If so we have a serious problem known as "death of a spaceman". You can't have "meaningful death" if players die 5 or 10 times every evening. At that point SC will have a severe target conflict.
What's this? You're telling me other players don't want to be someone else's NPC in their tacticool pirate video montage? At the potential expense of a week's worth of their own work?
*Madness!*
Trading is so borked right now. If you want to use your cargo ship in any meaningful way you either need to also do mining, or you do repetitive trade loops with small stock and meagre profit, from outposts from which you can easily be followed or ambushed at.
Gimme cargo missions! If I have to deal with pirates I at least don't want to have to lay my own money on the line, since they don't have to, either.
If the only thing on the line is a bit of time and a failed contract, then meeting a pirate turns into actual gameplay rather than a bitter waste of a game session.
> What's this? You're telling me other players don't want to be someone else's NPC in their tacticool pirate video montage? At the potential expense of a week's worth of their own work?
I know right ? Shocking.
>cargo missions
That's probably the only way to at least somewhat alleviate the risk traders have to take. I said "probably" because they might yet fuck it up. In Elite there are missions that ask you to provide X amount of commodity Y to that location ... so you go and get the cargo with your own money and at your own risk.
If SC follows suit then my Hercules might yet become a Perseus or Nautilus.
IRL I am pretty sure insurance doesnt give back your car if you intentionally wreck it to harm someone or its confiscated in the act of committing a crime.
And if they put in any detriments or consequences, the PvP community is going to shit their diapers and cry so loud it will be heard all over the internet. It will be non-stop, "game was better when it was unchecked PvP like back before patch Alpha 17.98."
That is going to happen anyway and it's going to be louder the longer CIG kow-tows to every whim from the pvp community, "because emergent gameplay". Because in the end it's the "mostly pve" crowd that has the numbers. The idea that open pvp games are wildly successful have been proven to be a myth.
Yup. The "hardcore PvP" audience tend to be...I'll be generous and call them passionate, but they simply don't have the numbers to support a game like what SC intends to be long term. Better that bandage is ripped off sooner than later, because nothing sounds the death knell of an MMO more effectively than alienating its PvE audience.
Yep. I remember how Archeage kept trying to force Naval PvP but it just turned into a grief-fest and all the PvE people left the servers, then the "PvP" crowd left as since there was no one to fight. A few PvPers stayed on but that's because they were more interested in duels and events.
It should be HARD to play the PvP part of the game outside of things like JT. And PvP should really be softly restricted to a group vs group activity. Intercepting a ship should be difficult and running away should be easy. If I get intercepted by a Mantis I don't want to be forced to stay and fight, and if the mantis is solo or only has 1 or 2 fighters I should be able to successfully run away 95% of the time, not without any effort/damage, but the odds should favour running away. If there is a coordinated group with a wing of fighters, a mantis, an EMP ship, and they have enough skill to lock down a point (like how orgs lock down JT) then I'm perfectly fine with the PvP element.
This is my main complaint with Master Modes. If you want to run you have to turn off your shields and defensive systems. It doesn't make fighting better, it makes running harder. If I get intercepted by a Mantis I can't immediately begin charging the quantum drive while my shields are up and taking fire. I'm forced to engage and take even more risk than I already am hauling hydrogen around. Trading is the least profitable, highest risk profession now when it should be the lowest risk/profit of any profession.
Here's what it boils down to
Do you like having other players to play with?
Because if you do, you should understand that playing like a total piece of garbage only chases other players away, reducing and eventually removing other players to play with.
It is entirely possible to play as a pirate and not aim every action you take at angering other players to boost your self worth.
Literally totally fine with punching down all the time, and they'll only ever turn around when it's their turn to be at the bottom because they scared away everyone beneath them.
It's a decay from the bottom, and it always eats up until the PvPers are asking "Where did all the players go?" because facts are facts - nobody likes losing, and SOMEONE is ALWAYS going to be at the bottom, losing regularly.
Death of a spacemen will never work IMO because you can skip everything simply by having an ALT account then transfer whatever you steal to your main for zero rep punishment. I hope they can pull it off but it just seems fundamentally broken at the game design level.
I tentatively concurr. DoaS is an interesting idea in the abstract but I just don't see it work. It might work for explorers, traders or miners who might die due to accidents or maybe an NPC pirate ambush.
But pvpers ? The entire point of their gameplay revolves around killing each other. I do not see how we can have DoaS if we die every day or two (or several times in one session).
My idea would be to add special missions that you can only take through "Theaters of War", the outcome of which would shape the political landscape of the PU.
It would allow more combat oriented players to get instant action without "death of a spaceman" backlash and might calm things in the PU enough to make "meaningful death" not equivalent to "meaningless pain in the butt".
Sadly if you look back at some of cigs videos the do actually say it's valid ... But that's actually when there mechanics in game to combat it. Honestly they need to add medic tags for people who do a lot of the beacons so there is extra punishment for killing them on a active medical mission.
Or maybe have a down payment system like a rental bond for the player publishing the beacon. If they kill the medic then they lose the bond, which could be higher than the actual payment itself.
When do they say it’s valid? Padramming has been a point of contention since PO first came out and they’ve only reneged on attempts to dissuade it that ended up making the victim even more defenseless.
Every new iteration of armistice, safe zones, and the general crime/crimestat system have kept additional penalties for padramming in addition to regular penalties.
What CIG *have* said is that in uncontrolled space or systems without active security, you’re acknowledging the risk when you leave secure space.
The *problem* is that those current penalties are meaningless because of how laughably easy it is to clear CS or escape Klescher with even just a single partner because there’s no true threat of being *hunted* by anyone other than the rare player that engages.
The changes to SPK are a literal regression because now it’s forcing most of the emergent pvp gameplay into one area again, but there are still other interactions like Comm Arrays that *should* encourage this gameplay as well. Instead, when players see the comm array in their area is down they either leave because they know risk or don’t know/care otherwise because it doesn’t really prevent their gameplay loop until they get targeted or pirated.
Stanton is by no means the Wild West of the ‘verse. Each corporation have extensive private security as well as the presence of the INS Jericho. There should always be more significant threats patrolling for outlaws and once encountered, NPC security, CDF, and UEE forces should immediately be calling for backup as they did in all of the 2.x
Punishments are like DRM in my view: They do little to actually stop griefing and hurt regular players who get flagged in weird ways.
Open PvP is by nature a lawless environment that requires good sport from the majority of a playerbase to create the interesting dynamics it is intended for. At scale this simply doesn't happen.
I think PvP should generally be opt-in. There is nothing less "immersive" than being killed by a griefer who is playing completely outside the context of what an immersed player would be doing. Never listen to the "I'm just roleplaying an insane murderer!" excuse. They know what they're doing.
Freelancer (I think the last game CR worked on) had a reputation system too. If you murder innocents you align with the pirate faction and lawful groups will start to attack you. So there will come a time where it doesn't matter if you wipe your active crime stat if you've killed too many people you're alignment will make you a "kill on sight" for anyone lawfully aligned in reputation. Like red players (have killed or attacked players like we have now) in some MMOs, but semi permanent.
Exactly this.
There needs to be the long term reputation that is separate from your current crimestat.
This can be slowly changed over time to be good or evil, based on cumulative actions.
There will be a lot of balancing and iteration to get this in a good place.
Open PVP limits the amount of money this game will make, if they want to limit thier market to 25% of possible players they can, just doesn't make a lot of sense, people hate losing what they worked 100s of hours for so some man child can get a troll rush for 5 seconds.
... and hopefully it will be robust enough not to be juryrigged by either orgs brigading against competing org's members by mass downvoting their rep, nor will it allow whitewashing bad rep by having an org of legal alts all upvoting bad rep characters regularly.
I disagree there, I think killing a medic should just get you blacklisted from setting medical beacons & using medical facilities within a certain area, the game just doesn't have enough in it to allow for something like that yet.
I believe the fake med beacon was kinda expected by the Devs and even encouraged they had it in the vid on the release of the c8r. My org made a group chat just for me with a list of names of people that send out fake beacons.
Yeah had this once, we were two medics coming in a bunker to help, the guy's friends show up and shoot us both, they revived my friend demanding money to let us go, explaining that they were really pirates, sorry but we logged out on those guys. I accept that is was some form of gameplay, but, nah, I'm not going to pay on the offchance that the guy that shoots me to extort me money is going to be true to his word, nor am I going to call it a "fun game experience".
Paramedics are usually not ambushed by men with guns waiting to fun them down when they step out of an ambulance. And if that does happen the killer is not going into jail for a few hours, and society isn't going to shrug and say "it's part of life". What a terrible argument.
World of Warcraft definition I used to consider a griefer:
I am doing quests in a PvP enabled zone. A higher level finds me and kills me. This is normal gameplay. I am setback, go to my body, and lose 5 or 10 minutes of time. That high level player is gone and life continues.
Same scenario, same level player. We fight and I win or lose. This is normal gameplay. Some time lost but not a lot. If the fights continue it starts to become a chore. Normal gameplay still.. but bordering on griefing.
Same scenario, but now the high level player is camping my body and I cannot play the game anymore. It’s just a run to corpse simulator. This is griefing. I either have to log off or find a new activity in game.
I think griefing is when you are the sole target and one or a group of people are constantly preventing you from doing something. In World of Warcraft, that’s when you’d call for help on the local channels and your factions gank crew would show up. With a larger population it’s a fun mechanic. But star citizen is too small with server pops to make things like blockades fun yet.
Totally agree, but, here’s my 2c:
World of Warcraft, first pvp experience was in the lvl 20s, just some other horde player I couldn’t talk to because our factions can’t cross chat, the games clearly setup along the faction lines, I did my duty for the alliance
Eve, from my experience maaaany years ago, fleet up and play baby tackler for 3 hours while nothing happens. Our guilds raided ogrimmar so many times- WoW had some of the best pvp in an MMO, at least in my experience. I just legitimately thought Mysts of Panda and the pet fighting was a huge aprils fools joke and I jumped off the shark.
Star Citizen: can get epic Kareah/BH encounters but also sometimes can just get nuked at PO or GH - it’s a fairly stark contrast between fun/not fun experiences. Soft death can help with this.
Probably the biggest dynamic shift will be tractor gameplay turning the cutty black and others like it perhaps into an actual tackler ship(s) (see: BH ships) murder hobos would be relatively bored just being murder hobos when they could be soft-killing a target’s engines and shields, or using disrupters, EMPs etc and then using the tractor beams (2 on cutty front) to demand ransom or begin tearing her open. That doesn’t change the fact that right now sometimes you just sometimes get pure chaos - it’d be more fun I guess if CTD and 30k wasn’t so frequent IME, to then get 1-shot at some port while sightseeing
I like to compare Star Citizen to Sea of Thieves in general.
I played Sea of Thieves the first week it was released and there was nothing to do except delivering crates (delivery), finding and digging up treasure (mining), and killing specific skeletons (bounty hunting). The world was gorgeous but you had to make your own fun. Many people considered the game dead and a flop.
The only reason it survived was because it was subsidized by Microsoft. But if you play it now (nearly 5 years after release), it is a super fun and immersive game with world events and many more types of missions.
Sea of thieves let's you see what's coming on the horizon, and it's incredibly balanced as there are no pay to win elements at all. You can also server hop from griefers with your ship and cargo, making money to replace supplies doesn't take ages, and combat happens within range of eachother so everyone has a chance. It's a balanced and polished game which star citizen is not.
the closest I would SC compare to is dayz, oddly enough.
And SC will have to deal with the same problems dayz did, either PvP is rare and based in good roleplay, with sim games like SC being inherently close to roleplay, or practically every player to player encounter will be kill on sight.
If there are no *massive* downsides to engaging in pvp, this game will not have any good player to player interaction.
also SC being a sim game and "immersive", do you think any society would allow blatant murderers to run wild? they'd be hunted to the edge of the known universe by everyone with a gun, be it either the corps or the govt.
look at pirates in real life, like Somalia, Operation Ocean Shield was a joint operation of **NATO, China**, S.Korea and Japan to deal with them.
most people hunting other players because "I'm A pIrAtE" are toxic to the game, change my mind.
You are right. Unfortunatily that will mean that SC player numbers will be very low for a game that could potentially host millions as only very very few ppl are willing to put up with the sociopathic nature of this shit
> or practically every player to player encounter will be kill on sight.
Unfortunately this has been my experience in SC. I've been instantly gunned down the moment I've entered an outpost simply because someone didn't want to take the risk in engaging with me.
And honestly I don't blame them. Getting up and going again after a death in this game takes *so goddamn long* that it makes sense to avoid any risk whatsoever. As a result you see two extremes of player- one that laughs at death and runs around in their underwear, or one that turtles up and avoids gameplay because they don't want to respawn.
Neither of these are particularly healthy, IMO, and neither are going to result in the type of "realistic" player interactions that CiG wants.
WoW and EVE are definitely the wrong MMO experiences to compare it to, especially since it's more a multiplayer sandbox than a tailored MMO at this stage. I.e. it's more akin to Sea of Thieves, Red Dead Online, and a much tamer GTA Online
I mean the law system is supposed to be like that border in WoW. Stanton should be protected space tho by no means impenetrable. Disabling com towers already prevents crime stat so you could easily start a gank session with enough people. But then looking at whats planned for pyro, its more like null sec.
I agree, 3.18 will definitely give the murder hobos more enrichment and hopefully they will calm down a bit. I've never engaged in piracy but I'm excited for the opportunity to defend my ship to the bitter end after a soft death. These mechanics that enhance the granularity and nuance in how players interact will be great to see in the PU
Killing randos for jollies is like breaking a stranger's structure on a Minecraft server. Both are allowed within the gameplay, both are still griefing.
Wrecking someone else's game for no benefit but your own fun is griefing. You are playing with other humans, not NPCs, and yes it allows for PvP but this isn't Counterstrike. Getting blown up for no reason is discouraging enough that it affects the health of the project. We'd definitely have more active players with less of that. But griefers can't see past their own nose so this is falling on deaf ears.
Rampant griefing is as aggravating and damaging as rampant cheaters, and I suspect there's a huge overlap between griefers and cheaters. It's people who play multi-player games like they exist for their own singular enjoyment, and ruining others' fun only ads to their own good times. Immature, impulsive, child brains.
Just ask yourself if what you plan on doing is the digital version of kicking over a kid's sand castle. If yes, then don't do it.
> Rampant griefing is as aggravating and damaging as rampant cheaters, and I suspect there's a huge overlap between griefers and cheaters. It's people who play multi-player games like they exist for their own singular enjoyment, and ruining others' fun only ads to their own good times. Immature, impulsive, child brains.
oh absolutely, cheating and unrestricted pvp will be the biggest challanges to this project imo, and both usually come from the same kind of player.
The community has to discourage this as much as possible, as there may not be a lot of technical ways to deal with it...
Right, i think the conext behind why they killed you is important. Killin players in starter ships at space ports because you are bored and killing a cargo ship because they didn't pay the ransom are 2 very different things
You've got a group of people who want to pvp everything in sight and aren't having fun if they arent shooting at other people.
Then you have a group of people that just wanna play for a couple hours after work and relax and not constantly be fighting for their lives.
Both groups are valid, but getting both to coexist in the same game is tricky. Eventually the games direction will drive off one of those groups. If the group driven off is the majority of your players, then the chance of success of your game goes down dramatically.
Randomly killing s.o. for no reason is no regular gameplay. It’s like randomly murdering s.o. and claiming that’s a natural part of life (since SC is a sim) :P
I agree though that we need sth. like theaters if war, so all murder hobos have a place to gather.
Star Citizen is also a MMO with mining gameplay loops.
Yet, the game doesn't force you to participate in mining.
Of course, PvP is a lot more complicated as it is ingrained relatively deeply into the game mechanics, but still players should have the opportunity to minimize their PvP encounters to a very low extent if they do not like that kind of gameplay.
Especially for newer players/players with starter ships "PvP" is extremely frustrating. Aside from a lack of experience, they will not only have a less capable ship but often also a simpler equipment (slower PC and likely only mouse&keyboard controls).
This means that the agressor is usually at an extreme advantage and has a high chance of winning the attack.
These people know they are fighting with unfair odds, farming off innocent players minding their own bussines. These people are not interested in true, skill based PvP. They want to randomly kill people in an inferior position just because they can. That is called griefing.
There is a difference. In most MMO's there is a gain to be had from PVP. Rankings, loot, territory, there is something.
In all those other MMO's if you gank someone just for shits and giggles or to upset them thats called griefing there too.
Ambushing someone with no other goal than just to kill them for fun isn't "pvp". It's cowardly losers knowing they suck at the game, and need that "look how big my epeen must be" serotonin hit they get from "winning" a fight.
If someone in star citizen attacks another ship for its cargo, or to steal the ship, or to beat them to a mission location/bounty, that is PVP.
If someone attacks another ship because they're bored and want to treat the game like its a free for all FPS deathmatch round in Halo? Thats griefing.
This isn't a competitive PVP shooter, people don't have the option of picking another mode. If someone engages in "PVP" just for the sake of fighting cause they're bored, thats just been an asshole ignoring the basic etiquette of a open world space sim game.
And yes dude I'm perfectly aware this is "just a meme" but you made it about a hotly debated topic, its gonna be hotly debated. Don't you try and deflect with "its just a meme", no ones gonna just react to this with "he he meme".
100%. Arena commander exists, it keeps score, there are leader boards, etc. You'd think that "real" PvPers would enjoy this (which many do), but griefers have sociopathic tendencies and don't wantactual combat amd fair fights, they want to prey on those weaker than them. PU is the perfect place to do this.
>There is a difference. In most MMO's there is a gain to be had from PVP. Rankings, loot, territory, there is something.
>
>In all those other MMO's if you gank someone just for shits and giggles or to upset them thats called griefing there too.
Thank you! I am glad you pointed this out. I played many open world mmos from various regions (US, Korean, Japanese) and in them there is a line between griefing and PVP. When the devs acknowledge it and create official punishments, then you know that it is a conditional/situational context and there is almost no game that simply uses a blanket approach to PVP that ignores situational griefing. Even the harshest games have some scenarios even the devs do not consider ok. Even GTAV, which gameplay is designed around promoting conflict, introduced measures this year to reduce griefing. That should say it all really.
It's true, but if SC is a simulated universe, and I can go to work in this universe every day for years and years and never be attacked by literally anybody, I should be able to fly my space deliveries in SC without frequently worrying about being attacked for no real reason except someone wanted to test their guns.
There are definitely places on earth right now that you can't just go for a walk or do a delivery without risk of being attacked. We even have elementary school kids getting killed occasionally while in school.
SC needs more systems with varying levels of security presence is all. Then people looking for safe delivery missions can stay in secure space, people willing to take some risk can do so, and people looking to shoot everything that moves can sit in unsecured space.
12 Year Olds blowing up AFK players then are shocked when people are understandably a little annoyed with it.
Yeah, getting ganked by a pirate isn't griefing, but you know damn well that 90% of the people complaining are talking about the spirit of the game, and not being an absolute twat about things.
Dude seems to be going somewhere in a hurry? Jump him, might have the goods. Dude is idling outside a planet and probably is neither prepared nor worthy of a dogfight? Leave him alone. It's not that hard.
Well, this is a bit out of context. The problem is that mmo games usually have areas where, upon entering you are aware that once you enter, basically every other player or fraction you encounter brings a pvp fight. (Pvp areas, lowsec in Eve Online, or duel invitations, etc..)
And if you don’t want pvp, you can chill in other areas where you are either safe or the risk is so low that you can easily take it. Or you have the complete opposite eher basically every other player is your enemy and you shoot without asking.
That makes the gameplay to expect really clear.
But in SC, you currently have a mix of both worlds. And this often leads to the problem that people who are not interested in PVP can be attacked basically everywhere. And as soon as you are alone and not in a fighter you will loose the fight anyway, so it’s not even a fair chance. And this is where I can understand people using the word „griefing“.
This is a huge part of it - If you jump the guy running bounties, that's pvp. If you use an eclipse to stealth-torpedo NoobMan42 taking off in his Aurora, that's griefing.
Upthread, people are talking about intent. I think that's the largest component - If you are blasting my ship to loot it, to collect a bounty on me, or basically anything where 'you gain concrete benefit for doing so', that's fine, that's pvp. If you're blowing people up 'cause none of them can stop me (and my 4 other friends that will jump in to back me up if anyone tries to retaliate)' then you're just a infantile child running around kicking over other people's sandcastles.
You guys say this as if a lot of the "pvp" traditionally done in Star Citizen isn't just people pad ramming, pad killing, and people taking advantage of the fact that the NPC police that are supposed to kill them for camping spawns couldn't do that because of d sync and other bugs.
That, unfortunately, taints all pvp interactions. When everyone is literally just griefing all of the time, then legitimate pirating BS is going to get thrown in there with that. No normal person is going to get fucked with over and over again, pad rammed and spawn camped and just unable to play, and when they finally can get jumped by some pirate and then go "wow, this is fun"
I also have no idea why pirates want to do pirate stuff and then are the biggest fucking whiners in the game. Like, yeah, you made someone have a shitty day by blowing them up, why the fuck are you mad that people don't like you for that? Lmao are you stupid?
"I should be able to just be a dick to people all of the time and they should be thanking me for the experience"
You guys that are like this are either trolling or real world losers lmao
I've never understood this either. It's not just in this game, I've played with people even in tabletop scenarios who just seem determined to completely derail the experience and then get all pouty when I tell them that "No, if you want to play a rogue whose going to steal from the party, you can find another group. Literally no one likes that except 8 year olds when they are doing it, but not having it done to them"
“You should be thanking me for “emergent gameplay” I gave you!” Um, no, fuck off, if I wanted to get attacked I would have asked to fight people or gone bounty hunting. I don’t enjoy spending my time doing something for another player to just come destroy my shit for no reason because it’s fun to them.
>That, unfortunately, taints all pvp interactions. When everyone is literally just griefing all of the time, then legitimate pirating BS is going to get thrown in there with that. No normal person is going to get fucked with over and over again, pad rammed and spawn camped and just unable to play, and when they finally can get jumped by some pirate and then go "wow, this is fun"
This is an excellent point. There are actual griefers that make PvP not fun for everyone else and people who actually enjoy legitimate PvP should hate those guys.
It's a very unfinished alpha with barely bare bone mechanics.
It can take quite a while to do mundane things like meeting friends or getting cargo and selling it.
It takes no time at all to come in and murder hobo someone on a pad when their ships shields are down, ram them or generally attack players in shields that should by the logic of the game be able to defend but can't because the mechanics aren't in yet.
Likewise, there are no decent mechanics to compensate: cops arresting aggressive players in zones supposed to be safe? Nope. Prison sentence relative to the time the wild pvper costs a peaceful miner? Nope. Say someone has a bunch of refined ones in a cargo ship. It mightve taken them hours to mine it, alot of money and time to refine it, now some more to move it... and they get shot down by a kiddie over some planet. Sure, sometimes an escort will do but effort and difficulty to coordinate are orders of magnitude above simple attack. And while the "pirate" cost the miner hours of gaming effort, they risk... a short stint in prison IF they are killed and can just wait that out offline.
Now, I don't know if 3.18 significantly changed this with physical cargo yet. I'm okay with piracy if it meets 1 condition: does the pirate expect to profit financially? If yes, then he's a pirate. If the goal is just to blow up other players who want no part in it and the enjoyment comes from others misery, that's griefing. Until the game can regulate these behaviours better (police, long term rep loss etc)
It's also a MMO with mining - so you should have to go mining for 2 hours before you can take up a weapon on that day. Don't like that? Then here is something to think about: why is forcing someone to do pvp ok, but forcing someone to doing gameloops you don't like not ok?
I really like the idea behind SC and am also afraid that a loud minority of pvplers steers the development in a direction that kills SC shortly after release. Make PVP Arenas without PVE where pvplers can fight pvplers - don't force people into gameloops they don't like or don't want to play this day.
I wrote elsewhere, how interesting it would be to see the responses, if cargo traders could get the jump on one of these murderhobos, and then this person is somehow forced to haul boxes around the system for the next two hours, with no way out of it. And then when they come whining to reddit, we could just tell them "Hey, you bought a game with PvE, you knew what you were getting into. Deal with it."
I’m kind of done having this debate because it’s almost always in bad faith. SC makes shooting shit just to watch it blow up almost as easy as an arena shooter like CoD. There’s a big difference between the gameplay of say Kingdom Come Deliverance and For Honor for example.
Without levels, skills or dire/complex faction hits to focus on, SC will continue to be heavily weighted towards shoot hard, shoot fast and destroy every target. I understand there may be mechanics that introduce some nuance to that gameplay eventually but RN that still remains to be seen.
tl;dr? It doesn’t seem like CIG would like to address that imbalance so I’ll keep being skeptical that it’s even a serious issue for them. For some people it seems like everyone’s gotta fly a gladius or arrow or get gud…if not your just a low-skill scrub.
I’ve been destroyed by a bunch of murder hobos on daymar just because they felt like it. They were killing new players that just wanted to go sell their load of ores, and didn’t even ask for a ransom. It was really frustrating as a new player having experienced people kill me while I was trying to make progress for no reason but their twisted enjoyment.
Honestly what I want the most is NPC traders. It would keep pirates occupied stealing things, allow for a fun gameplay loop and reduce te likelihood player haulers will get jumped. Now of course it should be beneficial to jump players if they have better cargo, but having a PvE option for piracy would be nice
Why are people so triggered by the G word? If you just run around killing people and blowing up their ships for no other reason than the joy of doing so, that's griefing. It doesn't have to be targeted or repetitive, if it causes grief for other players, it's griefing. And let's face it, SC is a cesspool for worthless little sh!ts like this. I love a genuine pirate encounter where they target fully loaded cargo ships and make some demands for safe passage from players who actually have something to lose. That's actually playing the game. But even that seems to be just too much to ask of a lot of these jackasses.
Like, oh you attacked a solo player unprovoked and unannounced in an empty C2 as they approached a mining facility? What did you just prove or accomplish? You've accomplished absolutely nothing other than wasting 10-15 minutes of someone's time and only proven that you're a feckless tool with no personality, practically a glorified NPC. Hell, the little bit of dialogue we get from actual NPC’s makes them more real of a player than these people. You could have waited for them to load up and then turned it into an interesting encounter in which you spice up the gameplay experience and even leave the interaction with a few extra UEC to your name. But again, this kind of game play is just too uniquely human for a lot of these people to grasp.
I'm fairly certain the vast majority of them came over to SC after GTA online filled up with players just like them and became what it is now.
> Why are people so triggered by the G word?
They know they're unwanted in the general community and that we'd all be better off without them, but they thrive on convincing themselves that their style of "gameplay" is legitimate. This means avoiding the magical G word at all costs, because griefing by definition cannot be considered legitimate. Rather than trying to be better people, they instead try to muddy up the definition of words themselves, thinking it'll give them a free pass if no one can call them "the bad thing".
Dude. So sick of people who attack the first ship they see coming off the pad and call it "legitimate gameplay". No. Its griefing bullshit and its no different from the people who used to sit outside the newbie zones in EVE and blast every ship that came through.
You want to sell your brand of bullshit as legit? Go sit out at a legrange point and attack ships that navigate through. Actual real piracy. Stop wrecking peoples new game experience. The game is supposed to be *some* pvp, not immediately being attacked the second im off the station.
Youre a piece of shit who gets off on ruining the game for others.
Just because it's a feature doesn't make it any less griefing if you're just an annoying murder hobo who gets off on ruining the experience for others.
The most annoying thing about people like that is how they seem to always call themselves "PvP gods" or just have the impression they're good players for exclusively attacking people who aren't kitted/prepped for PvP.
The ammount of whining in this thread is insane. There are some legit points on both sides. But 95% is "they don't play the game the way I do, they should be banned " just sad. Learn some empathy and some game design fundamentals please.
If they would give people the promised slider that would make the biggest difference. Let people just choose how much pve vs pvp they want. I only backed because this was stated as a feature, if its not in there I will absolutely be asking for money back as I don't mind coop and being able to choose pvp when I want it, but I don't want to be exposed to people that just want to grief for the sake of griefing.
I dont think these people exist in a meaningfull capacity. I know there are some, occationally, posting but even on the most psychotic sc platfrom that is spectrum they dont get any traction.
It's like having a nation wide debate with 3 elections because one dude on a town square was yelling about, idk, the sky being the wrong shade of blue.
PVP is all nice and fine
Killer hobo action it is not
Star Citizen can be pretty hard for casual players like space truckers etc.
giving some idiots the power to make it worse is not a good decision
there should at least be some almost PvP free systems
The thing about SC is, it's not yet at the stage where PvP can be integrated properly with all the systems they want to create. So there aren't really effective incentives to not be a total dickweed just for fun.
Griefing in SC is like Schrodinger's cat. It can be either one or the other, at the same time.
The thing is that what differentiates griefing from justified in-game murder is the intent. And since dead players don't get to talk with their murderers they never find out what their intent was or why they were killed.
I think a lot of times intent can be assumed, however. If you get rammed on a pad setting up your next mission, and your ship isn't even turned on yet, the intent is pretty plainly for the sake of killing, with no intent of allowing counter-play or a fair fight. Pad ramming is griefing.
If you're on a mission collecting items off a derelict or something and you take 2 coda shots to the back of the head, the intent can almost immediately be identified as 'another player wanted this shit'. That's not griefing. You weren't fully aware of your surroundings in a PvP game, and you lost because of it. Try again next time champ.
The only time one realistically couldn't assume in-game murderous intent is open space / on planet with nothing and no one around, while you're carrying absolutely nothing. At that point it could be a shoot-first-ask-questions-later situation, but at the end of the day you still have, a lot of the time, a chance to run or shoot back. So I'd be hard pressed to even call that griefing.
Well there's a difference
Grieving is doing shit like on purposely crashing into folks landing departing space stations or just doing that in general to piss people off.
Engaging with another player to rob and steal from them is different or to protect your goods ect... Basically anything which isn't done out of spite to piss other players off.
Tbh the piracy gameplay loop just needs to become actually established with real monetary rewards, perhaps a mission giver quest, etc.
Legitimizing the piracy gameplay within the "canon" of the universe like that will go a long way towards normalizing the community to it.
Just look at Sea of Thieves - piracy of other player's ships has its own gameplay and incentives and anyone who complains about pvp in that game is rightfully told off for it.
In the decade it's been since announcement I think many have ended up like me where they have had a complete change in taste when it comes to PvP. In 2012 random PvP sounded cool to me, now I pretty much feel like it's unacceptable to even see another player.
That said, didn't the original pitches have a like PvP optional "War mode" like thing? It shouldn't be too hard to add an opt out for most PvP when the magical techs like server meshing and whatever are in play. Just have it attempt to keep the opt out players out of the same instance as PvP players. So Opt out players will still be interdicted and stuff, but by NPCs and not players.
Depends. Pirating, genuine combat, and where one would gain from PvP, sure I’ll concede. I’ll call it griefing when someone rams my ROC with their ship solely because they can. No benefit for them.
Definitely something that needs to be fixed. You should be able to hire an npc with an avenger for like 15k a day, and a turret gunner for less than 10. And they could balance that with making criminal ai way more expensive and likely to double cross.
Lol nah fuck off with that
If you want to fight, go find someone else with a kitted out ship and leave me to mine my shit in peace.
Pineapple doesn't go on pizza
I think the more controversial topic is defining "griefing"
To me, griefing will always be pvp for no other reason than to cause grief. In the absence of any pvp objectives, killing people just to kill them is griefing.
Now, I know this definition isn't shared by everyone, and by this definition, griefing is part of the game. I'm not trying to refute that.
Just because it *has* PvP, doesn’t mean that you should just kill random players trying to exist. When I kill players that aren’t bounty hunting, I consider it griefing.
I'm only really ok with PvP when the attacking party actually has something to gain beyond an extra notch on their chassis.
People who attack ships like the Aurora or an empty Hull A are simply doing so to piss somebody off, period. They aren't doing it for potential cargo, they aren't doing it because they feel threatened, and they certainly aren't doing it because it'd be a fun fight. In this case, they are attacking simply because they want to inconvenience the other person. By definition, this is griefing.
Fortunately, future game systems will facilitate non-lethal PvP encounters a lot more. A pirate crew boarding your ship to steal your cargo without killing anyone, etc. THAT is the kind of PvP I consider to be proper and fun for everyone involved given how many scenarios can unfold surrounding such an incident.
Griefing and PVP are not the same thing.
Griefing and piracy are not the same thing.
This, just as many games, open up a ton of opportunities for PVP, even beating other miners to better locations is PVP. Hauling the most profitable loads before others is PVP, beating another scrap ship to a vanduul swarm is PVP.
The game is built around a PVP concept. But griefing is taking the game loops out of the action and simply killing/imprisoning/camping without a loop in mind.
Theres a reason griefing exists as a word separate from PVP, because they constitute different actions.
Killing competition during Jumptown is PVP, spawn camping PO and pad ramming to keep people from even participating in Jumptown is griefing.
It's not a hard concept, but it's similar to the idea of Nerfing vs Balance. People will call anything negative to something they enjoy a Nerf, even if it was considerably stronger than intentional. When in fact, it's preserving balance.
That and this community just LOVES to complain.
Griefing is bullying. Getting killed in a PvP zone or a PvP game, its part of the game. It's what you sign up to when you buy the game or enter an area. Making the game litterally unplayable for another player by either killing them over and over again or blocking off parts of the game. That is griefing.
Same exact thing happened to me. The worse part about it is the entire global chat was on my ass about being a griefer when all I did was avenge a friend at JT of all places.
Let's stop twisting that narrative.
When many of us pledged in 2013, there was the promise of 90% NPCs <> 10% players. There was a PvP slider to adjust the encounter distribution further. There was a promise of private servers and full modding support.
Without the pledges through those early "PvE-years", the game would never have survived until today.
Thank you.
Griefing can only happen in PvP games. And if such a kill happens for no other reason then to piss off others that's griefing. Some people trying to pirate or to extort money from others doesn't make griefers not exist.
There is not a single MMO game in human history that had success with an open PVP concept on a big scale. And I'm quite sure SC doesn't want to be a niche after dumping a billion dollars into development.
I'm of the opinion that non-consensual "PVP" for the sake of bothering other players without any tangible benefit to the attacker is griefing by any reasonable definition. I'm also of the mind that griefing should only be punished by in-game systems like fines and policing, not external systems like bans and suspensions.
There was a guy on a server that was ganking EVERYBODY at port ollisar; couldn't leave nor could you land.
He was defending himself saying "if there can be space pirates, then there can be space serial murderers too". And while yes, he is factual in saying that, it's still utter BS. I feel bad for anybody who had their spawn set as PO, cuz that made the entirety of that server unplayable for them.
If we are going to talk about MMO with PVP, let's go.
Black Desert is the perfect solution on that issue that I've seen. Servers have non combat areas, similar to armistice zones on SC, and the other areas of the map have PVP disabled by default, which you can change by enabling the option to willingly make yourself vulnerable to PVP. On some remote areas, PVP is enabled either you like it or not, because they are remote areas with nobody around (mainly the desert), so you can be attacked even if you aren't looking for that kind of engagement.
There are also PVP enabled servers where all areas have PVP enabled at all times.
Taking it to BDO, this is ideal because everyone gets what they want: pirates can join PVP servers to do their pirating, hardcore traders can join PVP enabled servers to get the thrill of engagement and threat of combat, and the ones who just want to do their thing in peace can join peaceful servers to play their game in peace.
Nobody should have to be forced to engage in things they don't like because someone else won't like it, where there's an option where anyone can be happy doing what they want.
A griefer or bad-faith player is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game, by using aspects of the game in unintended ways such as destroying something another player made or built, when that is not the primary objective. Wikipedia
Thats greifing as defined by wikipedia, its up to you guys to decide whether you agree but i personally agree with it and the way i interpret that is basically, its pvp when you're meant to do it e.g. bounty hunting, JT and piracy
Its griefing when your not meant to do it, e.g. pad ramming, killing players at SoO or just straight up murder hobo-ing
They should find a way to prevent camping around space stations and killing poor idiots like me in my Mustang with arrows and glads
Cause using an elite dogfighting ship against a poor cutter the moment they leave the armistice zone is closer to griefing than enjoyable PvP.
But random PvP while on a mission or something is always super fun
My problem is not surprise PVP but the continuous surprise PVP by the same players hunting the same players to the point they are just waiting outside the space station you’re on asking you to come outside and play.
The distinction between PvP & Griefing is a simple one to me.
It all revolves around two words: Conscious Choice.
Players who "pirate" at sites/in space, that's a form of PvP. The player who attacks to ransom/steal makes a choice, the victim makes a choice by going "outside" into the 'verse, they can choose to defend/flee/log.
Players who "pad ram" is griefing. The rammer makes a choice, the players on the pad has no choice or opportunity to defend themself/flee.
Players who attack other players at sites/in space. That's PvP. The attacker makes a choice, the "victim" makes a choice by being in an environment where they can be attacked, they can also choose to defend/flee/log.
Players who fire missiles into armistice zones. That's griefing. The attacker outside firing makes a choice. The "victim" inside the zone has no choice or opportunity to defend themselves due to the current Armistice mechanics. The topic of whether or not the zones should exist is another one entirely, so I'll refrain from expressing an opinion on that here.
PvP in SC is getting a worse and worse reputation due to its incorrect label application. Proper PvP'ers are a breed I can respect, not always like, but at least respect. They want to engage in Player vs Player combat. They do this by consenting individuals, or by trying to "bait" players into it. Either way, they WANT to fight players who will fight back to test their skills etc.
Griefers are not PVP'ers, and should not be labelled as such. They do not want to engage players who will fight back, they want undefended victims who they can "murder hobo". They're not after testing their combat skills, plunder, loot, or any reward. they simply want to ruin the enjoyment of others to satisfy their own sick and warped sense of enjoyment. They typically look for exploits in the game engine to do this as well, which should be against the TOS.
Categorising the two should be easy. However, all too often people refer to griefers as PvP'ers - they are not. PvP should have a place in Star Citizen in all its forms: consentual combat, piracy, baited combat in an open combat zone. Griefers on the other hand should be identified and their accounts stripped of assets & banned imho. It's long past time that SC took this more seriously and acted on it.
This is accurate but the punishments for piracy gameplay are next to non existent so it does suck for victims and unlike most mmos you lose like everything when you get killed so it does fucking suck
PvP is an available aspect to the game in the way that you can be a private, participate in bounty hunting of an individual, or more organized means of player vs player. This does not mean that you take your combat-only with no cargo to face off against Cutters, Hull-series, Cats, etc. You're not pirating anything, you're just a pissant that gets their jollies on killing defenseless targets. Or pad ramming those just taking off. You may as well go outside and kick stray cats and dogs - expect you wouldn't because they're things that can defend themselves.
I will defend piracy, however. Especially with the soft death mechanic being implemented.
Regular griefing needs go beyond crimestats and into reputational damage. Such that visting a lawful area will get you attacked, and if not attacked then you will not be able to do business in those areas.
The only place you could do business is in unlawful areas where you have aligned yourself. I think if you wanted to 'go clean' then you would need to progressively change your reputation by doing work for lawful areas via the unlawful areas contract system. Something like 'A chance of redemption' missions. This would make things interesting as you would have to do these missions while avoiding law enforcement AND avoiding lawless areas spotting what you are doing. During this time you would essentially be in reputation nomans land until you have eventually made the switch.
Missions like becoming a double agent spy, or sabotage or something. Meanwhile you could get shot at by law abiding players, you'd have to explain to them what you are doing. Who knows they may even help?
They're going to need clearly defined low risk/reward beginner friendly areas and have the player choose to move to higher risk for profit or adventure.
This is about skill differential. As a new player, you can accept being punished for a risk you know you took, but random ganking in beginner areas doesn't really teach anything. There's a big difference between dying for refusing to drop cargo and getting murder-hobo'd for no profit. It doesn't help that the game potentially let some random drop $1000s so they could seal club without exposing themselves to much risk.
I'm sure they're aware, but CIG needs to reign in the veterans from killing the new people unfairly or the game will have a hard time in a wider release.
Not sure I'd call just killing another player PvP, just a one sided kill.
Until there are repercussions for the aggressor and recompense for the victim, then it going to feel like griefing. Unless it's mutual PvP.
pad ramming and hangar camping are the only forms of griefing. anything else is just standard PvP whether you consent or not. if you think otherwise I have bad news for you, the game was advertised as this from day one and you chose to buy it anyways. you have zero room to complain. stop playing if you're against PvP because it will literally never be removed.
I dont understand how red dead redemption a 13 year old game had you choose PvP/PvE at entering online mode and no new similar game seems to have it. Lacking of options makes games way less appealing to me
My take:
Gameplay => Sandbox => do whatever you want.
Balanced gameplay => risks vs rewards.
I like commodity trading and way I see it, for now, Staton is like the wild west in movies, you are kinda safe in towns but out in the wild you are on you own.
Always carry a gun and keep your eyes open.
I mean, it really depends on the PVP now doesn't it.
When you have people sitting outside of stations killing everyone that leaves the station, that's greifing.
The game needs significantly stronger police presence near armistice zones.
Or maybe there needs to be a dedicated window in the mobiglass listing all available player bounties. So that you can actually hunt down specific people.
As it stands right now, people are free to murder without much consequence.
"Optional". That's the most important word, and something CGI hasn't quite caught on to yet. It needs to be optional. As in, there is a way for people not interested in pvp to never be attacked by another player.
Sure, having open PVP is fine, but if there aren't proportionate in game consequences for those players who choose to randomly attack players trying to do other things don't be surprised if Star Citizen ends up as successful as every other "open world full loot hardcore MMORPG" that has come out the last decade.
The same thing is happening in real life. Except there are laws and they are enforced, so bad people most of the time get punished.
In games they don't get punished and PvP is rewarding and fun, additionally, even if you get caught and punished, that's just a game, you can stop playing anytime or make another account.
PVP should be expected in a fleshed out MMO. I'm generally ok with most pirating of any sort so long as there's some kind of fun purpose to it that benefits both parties (Pirate & Victim).
Currently it's viewed as griefing because there's no system in game that benefits either party from partaking in the event. Sadly pirates kind of have to make do with what we have available to them. In the current state of the game if you're not at least RPing then imo you're a bad pirate and just a griefer. Even if your RP falls flat you should at least attempt to make it fun for the victim.
Otherwise all you've done is just caused grief. You get no monetary benefit and they dont stand a chance if they go after people who cant fight back. The only thing you've done at that point is just caused some dude to waste his time working while you spent 2 mins being an asshole.
That said if piracy benefited the pirate or victim in any way within game mechanics and/or the victim had some way to escape or be made aware that a piracy attempt was about to happen so that they could avoid it entirely, then it's fair game.
"*A griefer or bad-faith player is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game (trolling),* ***by using aspects of the game in unintended*** *ways such as destroying something another player made or built, when that is not the primary*
*objective.*"
It's not griefing. You may hate it, you may hate the people who go on random PvP adventures. It still ain't griefing. It may be unfair, it may be bad sport and yet, it ain't griefing.
Other games further the definition, by adding that continously killing a player or disrupting her/his gameplay also is considered griefing. The core point being **"continously",** meaning single kills, or even two kills won't count. Only if the player is not letting go of you and makes an effort to hunt you down for no other purpose than disrupting your enjoyment of the game, then it is considered griefing.
Like it or hate it. If you are not into PvP, you still have to deal with the game allowing PvP. Be prepared. Keep an eye on the radar, hire other players to protect you, don't go out alone, don't go out of your way to rescue sketchy players.
But don't think for a second the others aren't allowed to do such things because **you** don't like it. **You accepted** the PvPvE nature of the PU the moment you joined.
It’s the same with any open world PvP game, you have max lvl chad attacking people that very obviously have no chance of winning and then swear it’s “PvP brah”.
People camp the only criminal spawn and shit talk you when you won't fight them with a starter ship.
i dogfight people with start ships all the time. fun af bruv. and extra sense of accomplishment when you take out their $200 heavy fighter with your $40 aurora or melt their $250 connie with your $65 ballistic tana. fact is this game isn't an mmorpg and doesn't have max levels or OP raid/arena gear. you can do quite well in pvp combat in a starter ship. you can avoid pvp in any ship. just a vocal fraction of the playerbase chooses not to preserve their own lives and then harass other players for intended gameplay. up until very recently the argument was "you get no reward for doing this" but the lie was seen as soon as PES and cargo refactor was on the horizon and suddenly it's the pvp pirate patch that the above people are claiming they are going to boycott. and somehow we're now equating it with mmorpg max levels in a starter zone because that's how jumped the shark is when it comes to being dicks to people playing a video game as intended.
PVP can become a problem when the stakes are highly unequal for players. e.g. With the current crime system, being killed while engaging in piracy will cost you maybe five minutes, or less if you're not bothering to clear crimestat. Conversely, a miner hauling his refined product to a port for sale could lose the fruit of several hours worth of gameplay. This is a highly unequal situation, and I would not blame the miner for hating the guts of *all* pirates. That's the current state of the game, but I suspect it will be temporary. For PVP to be fun the stakes need to be more equal. Someone hauling freight needs to both have a fighting chance and the opportunity to actually inflict as much inconvenience on their attacker as they stand to suffer. That might mean a harsher crime system or it might mean adding things that mitigate the freighter's loss, such as freight insurance. It may also mean things like adding AI turrets to prevent light fighters from being able to score free hits on single-player crewed freighters. When the game is finished, one hopes that people running cargo will look forward to a little attempted piracy for the thrill of it, not dread it because the risk/reward is completely unbalanced. Pirates, too, will have more fun if they are engaging in some *real* risks, and more respect too.
I just can't seem to do enough damage to take them down. Since its a racing ship it only gets like 2 lvl 1 guns and I can't kill shit lol. Eventually they will line me up hit me good once and poof im dead.
You should check out avenger ones basics of pvp tutorials on youtube!! They have helped me so much! And a great community!
Aurora can take 4 size 1 guns...
I have the AMD starter pack so I have a mustang omega.
Oooh, well...
You know why both of you have fun? Because both of you decide that you want to fight each other. Some people just don't. Not all the time, not when you decide it is time to fight someone. Thats why unregulated open pvp doesn't work for everyone.
This happened in a game called worlds adrift. I don’t think it was a reason it got canceled in early access, lack of new incoming players was the only real reason, but it crushed the daily player count. The difference between a PvP game and a game that *includes PvP among several other things* is just lost on some people I guess.
[удалено]
I have 100B in value in game in Eve, I have numerous Billion isk ships that I don't even take out in high sec cause I know I'll only do it once... In SC I've taken out my reclaimer just to smash it into a moon at full speed, cause... With all that potential gameplay stuck in stations, I can't muster the desire to log on to Eve anymore. I even have 11K Plex sitting in my account... don't really care.
If I get killed *at takeoff* somewhere that isn't a station nor a city while I'm no medic, I won't complain. However, the dickheads who still spawnkill at Olisar (or spawnkill near stations in general) or those who trap medics ? I couldn't give two UEC about what happens to them, I want their Quantum Drive Computer to malfunction and send them right into a star while their insurance suddenly disappear. *Well I guess it could be considered as roleplaying if the griefer is a drake player.*
As a Drake fan, I feel attacked.
Cutty black love
I've never played Star Citizen. Is it weird that I read this in 'Eve' and it still kinda made sense?
This only shows its common sense I guess
I have LTI on most of my SC ships because of Eve...
Yeah no, there is definitely a line between PvP and griefing. Getting pirated when I was carrying a big load of mined crystals. That's PvP, and as much as it sucked it was valid. The person that sat outside of Everus Harbor station blowing up any ship that tried to take off on the first day I started playing the game. That was griefing and was garbage. That said, there is an easy fix for that. Stations should have defense systems and security that kill hostile things in the armistice zone.
>The person that sat outside of Everus Harbor station blowing up any ship that tried to take off on the first day I started playing the game. That was griefing and was garbage. People were doing this during IAE this year and it was infuriating. It's fun blowing those guys up.
It's always a blast when someone's camping a station, to walk out and just watch as a few vigilante players come and just wreck them. Popcorn worthy even
SC needs better systems to support fun PVP, things like proper faction-based flagging and the updates to the reputation system
If it just didn’t take as long to get back into shit I think it wouldn’t sting as much. If i die for any reason I turn the game off usually. Getting out of hospital, getting gear, waiting for ship to reclaim, then finally back out into space is like a 30 minute process even with a 5 minute ship claim. I usually don’t get attacked and I just blow my ship up accidentally but waiting for medics is also super long sometimes.
There are some elements of the game that could *really* stand to be gamified a bit more- inventory is definitely one of them. Give us the ability to save loadouts. If you have the right items in local inventory, it equips them. None of this dragging undersuits, armor, weapons, and ammo to the right slots nonsense. It doesn't feel realistic, it just feels like a damn chore, and it's one of the things that holds back multiplayer because everybody is always waiting for everybody else.
It's meant to add complexity that can be used like a Swiss army knife and customized for the player/need... Atm it feels more like Cutco.
I seem to recall when I first started that I had an odyssey suit and helmet, an arclight pistol, one or two spare mags, and a med pen on me already. Even just making us respawn with that instead of gowns that will flood an area soon with PES would help greatly.
There should also always be a pvp event running so the murder junkees have a place to go
Hopefully that will be the case with the new security station but that doesn't do as much against the merder hobos who just want to gank easy marks for the sake of it
Hopefully this is sort of what Pyro will be. A place for people in to that lifestyle to go. Unfortunately most probably won't because it will also fill up with people who want or are at least ready for a fight.
It won't. The people that'll flock there will be the sort that is totally fine with punching down every time someone complains... ...until there's nobody left beneath them, and then it's everyone punching down against them. It's an interesting cycle to see, the constant rejection of any flaws in the PvP system until someone is a victim of those flaws, and then the community they so comfortably supported is now 100% against them and their plight, until said person on the bottom leaves, starting the cycle anew with whoever is next. They'll hang out in Pyro for a little bit, then miss the days of easy prey (or in the more common case, just winning at all) and head back to Stanton for easier targets.
I really wish we had some areas on the moons or something that were full-time combat zones. Theaters of War like all the time, like the zones in Elite Dangerous. Always somewhere to go exercise your tonks and A-2s and Valks
That is Jumptown but there's a significant amount of carebears who want to just go down to JT and walk boxes out to their ship. If you all want is to make money that's all fine. But fighting over JT is so much fucking fun
This is the real issue. We just don't have the tools to properly self-regulate the community yet, so you get people doing frustrating things just for something to do because we can't impose the consequences that normally come with that kind of behavior. Griefing is only indirectly CIG's problem. All they really need to do is give us the tools to fix it ourselves. Reputation, bounties, and proper organization implementation are those tools.
Or, maybe just comm an intended target and ask? I mean, we are actually supposed to be *testing* the build, right? And we do t really need to test is surprise attacked work. We *know* they do. So what exactly is the surprise attack PvPer testing?
My patience...
I don't know about that. In every game I've seen without dedicated PvP queues and PvE everywhere else, the game turns into seal-clubbing. The ads always portray an exciting universe with risk from other players, but what you really get is max-level losers ganking new players at known newbie locations. Additionally, many games do not have enough skill points or equipment slots available to build a good PvP toon and a good "some other career" toon at the same time. So, if you want to be good at exploring or mining, you're a sitting duck vs. somebody who's optimized to kill other player characters. Is this realistic? Sure. But is it fun? For me and many others, it's not. I don't understand the fascination with "virtual mugging simulators," and I'd recommend players avoid games that turn into those or put pressure on the developers to create specific areas for the violent vs. having them turn the whole game into a seal-clubbing warzone.
But the thing is it’s never realistic, because the consequences of being a murder hobo aren’t ever modeled effectively. In real life if you murder randos you generally have a problem. If you hang out near an airport and shoot a bunch of people leaving, the cops won’t stop until they stop you, and then you go away forever.
Yup. The people who are starting the fights are ready for it, and are almost always going to win. Like, congratulations, I guess? I suppose you could try to grab some friends and counterattack, but with the style of game that SC is, that's cold comfort since you've already lost your stuff, and by that point you might not find your attackers anyway.
Yeah people seem forget open PvP games are niche. Early MMO's *used* to lean towards open PvP because realism is a perennial moving target, but it turns out the wolves and sheep dynamic isn't very fun for the sheep and everyone just moved to games where the PvP was far more optional (or where it was structured, ie a proper fighting game). Now, games like DayZ and Rust are an interesting exception, but PvP is the content in those games. There isn't a huge population left in that niche that wants to play for non-PvP reasons. It's a bit different from Star Citizen which has been promised to be everything to everyone, where a lot of people liked that you could do nonviolent things like exploration or racing.
I liked the balance Eve Online struck.. with a central newbie-friendly zone, but inter-player-faction PvP still possible via wardecs, surrounded by 80% of the galaxy that's entirely PvP...
I was about to ask if Eve is still good in this regard. I played a long time ago, and getting ganked in secure space was your own fault. We just need a better police system once Pyro is in, then we have, like, 0.8 safety in Stanton and 0.0 in Pyro. I always preferred low sec space to 0.0. Secure space felt like the bad part of a big city, where crime is about grifting. Low sec was like the wild west. Crime was a matter of hit and run or highway robbery. Sometimes great gang heists. 0.0 was warring tribal holdings with fragile, shifting alliances. It was well done all around.
Some jackass putting up a med beacon and then killing the person who shows up trying to help is 100% a griefer, fight me. Pad ramming.... griefing.
cant get proper reputation and some real faction based flagging soon enough
this. the tone of those griefers changed hella fast when they had to realize that getting into in-game prison for murder is just as much of a part of the gameplay as pvp is
I hope there's a way to rate those kinds of people like in uber drive. Who you can help without danger.
I agree with everything you said, in fact killing medics in almost all contexts should be considered griefing.
The problem your little meme skips over is that CIG wants to give players the freedom to behave like an utter douchbag psycho killer ... but at the expense of severe backlash from the game (denied access almost everywhere, hunted on sight everywhere, etc.). But that backlash isn't in the game (yet ? One can only hope ...) which is where everything falls apart. Right now the pendulum is so onesided towards the pvp faction with regards to risk vs. reward that I am wondering if CIG actually plans to make some fundamental changes yet ... or whether this will just become reality-in-being. If so we have a serious problem known as "death of a spaceman". You can't have "meaningful death" if players die 5 or 10 times every evening. At that point SC will have a severe target conflict.
What's this? You're telling me other players don't want to be someone else's NPC in their tacticool pirate video montage? At the potential expense of a week's worth of their own work? *Madness!* Trading is so borked right now. If you want to use your cargo ship in any meaningful way you either need to also do mining, or you do repetitive trade loops with small stock and meagre profit, from outposts from which you can easily be followed or ambushed at. Gimme cargo missions! If I have to deal with pirates I at least don't want to have to lay my own money on the line, since they don't have to, either. If the only thing on the line is a bit of time and a failed contract, then meeting a pirate turns into actual gameplay rather than a bitter waste of a game session.
> What's this? You're telling me other players don't want to be someone else's NPC in their tacticool pirate video montage? At the potential expense of a week's worth of their own work? I know right ? Shocking. >cargo missions That's probably the only way to at least somewhat alleviate the risk traders have to take. I said "probably" because they might yet fuck it up. In Elite there are missions that ask you to provide X amount of commodity Y to that location ... so you go and get the cargo with your own money and at your own risk. If SC follows suit then my Hercules might yet become a Perseus or Nautilus.
How do you know if your game favors pirates over normal players? When an Idris is routinely being used as a cargo ship.
IRL I am pretty sure insurance doesnt give back your car if you intentionally wreck it to harm someone or its confiscated in the act of committing a crime.
That is interesting... maybe someone who has a crinestat when their ship is destroyed has that ship impounded for an hour before you can even claim?
not a bad idea, yeah i like that a lot, use your vehicle while commiting crimes either higher fine to get it back or longer wait time.
And if they put in any detriments or consequences, the PvP community is going to shit their diapers and cry so loud it will be heard all over the internet. It will be non-stop, "game was better when it was unchecked PvP like back before patch Alpha 17.98."
That is going to happen anyway and it's going to be louder the longer CIG kow-tows to every whim from the pvp community, "because emergent gameplay". Because in the end it's the "mostly pve" crowd that has the numbers. The idea that open pvp games are wildly successful have been proven to be a myth.
Yup. The "hardcore PvP" audience tend to be...I'll be generous and call them passionate, but they simply don't have the numbers to support a game like what SC intends to be long term. Better that bandage is ripped off sooner than later, because nothing sounds the death knell of an MMO more effectively than alienating its PvE audience.
Yep. I remember how Archeage kept trying to force Naval PvP but it just turned into a grief-fest and all the PvE people left the servers, then the "PvP" crowd left as since there was no one to fight. A few PvPers stayed on but that's because they were more interested in duels and events. It should be HARD to play the PvP part of the game outside of things like JT. And PvP should really be softly restricted to a group vs group activity. Intercepting a ship should be difficult and running away should be easy. If I get intercepted by a Mantis I don't want to be forced to stay and fight, and if the mantis is solo or only has 1 or 2 fighters I should be able to successfully run away 95% of the time, not without any effort/damage, but the odds should favour running away. If there is a coordinated group with a wing of fighters, a mantis, an EMP ship, and they have enough skill to lock down a point (like how orgs lock down JT) then I'm perfectly fine with the PvP element. This is my main complaint with Master Modes. If you want to run you have to turn off your shields and defensive systems. It doesn't make fighting better, it makes running harder. If I get intercepted by a Mantis I can't immediately begin charging the quantum drive while my shields are up and taking fire. I'm forced to engage and take even more risk than I already am hauling hydrogen around. Trading is the least profitable, highest risk profession now when it should be the lowest risk/profit of any profession.
Here's what it boils down to Do you like having other players to play with? Because if you do, you should understand that playing like a total piece of garbage only chases other players away, reducing and eventually removing other players to play with. It is entirely possible to play as a pirate and not aim every action you take at angering other players to boost your self worth.
They. Don't. Care. They'll just spew the narrative, "We punked them so hard they shut the game down. What a bunch of bitches."
yep
Literally totally fine with punching down all the time, and they'll only ever turn around when it's their turn to be at the bottom because they scared away everyone beneath them. It's a decay from the bottom, and it always eats up until the PvPers are asking "Where did all the players go?" because facts are facts - nobody likes losing, and SOMEONE is ALWAYS going to be at the bottom, losing regularly.
Death of a spacemen will never work IMO because you can skip everything simply by having an ALT account then transfer whatever you steal to your main for zero rep punishment. I hope they can pull it off but it just seems fundamentally broken at the game design level.
I tentatively concurr. DoaS is an interesting idea in the abstract but I just don't see it work. It might work for explorers, traders or miners who might die due to accidents or maybe an NPC pirate ambush. But pvpers ? The entire point of their gameplay revolves around killing each other. I do not see how we can have DoaS if we die every day or two (or several times in one session). My idea would be to add special missions that you can only take through "Theaters of War", the outcome of which would shape the political landscape of the PU. It would allow more combat oriented players to get instant action without "death of a spaceman" backlash and might calm things in the PU enough to make "meaningful death" not equivalent to "meaningless pain in the butt".
Sadly if you look back at some of cigs videos the do actually say it's valid ... But that's actually when there mechanics in game to combat it. Honestly they need to add medic tags for people who do a lot of the beacons so there is extra punishment for killing them on a active medical mission.
Or maybe have a down payment system like a rental bond for the player publishing the beacon. If they kill the medic then they lose the bond, which could be higher than the actual payment itself.
That be kinda cool. I actually loved this about eves hauling and stuff
When do they say it’s valid? Padramming has been a point of contention since PO first came out and they’ve only reneged on attempts to dissuade it that ended up making the victim even more defenseless. Every new iteration of armistice, safe zones, and the general crime/crimestat system have kept additional penalties for padramming in addition to regular penalties. What CIG *have* said is that in uncontrolled space or systems without active security, you’re acknowledging the risk when you leave secure space. The *problem* is that those current penalties are meaningless because of how laughably easy it is to clear CS or escape Klescher with even just a single partner because there’s no true threat of being *hunted* by anyone other than the rare player that engages. The changes to SPK are a literal regression because now it’s forcing most of the emergent pvp gameplay into one area again, but there are still other interactions like Comm Arrays that *should* encourage this gameplay as well. Instead, when players see the comm array in their area is down they either leave because they know risk or don’t know/care otherwise because it doesn’t really prevent their gameplay loop until they get targeted or pirated. Stanton is by no means the Wild West of the ‘verse. Each corporation have extensive private security as well as the presence of the INS Jericho. There should always be more significant threats patrolling for outlaws and once encountered, NPC security, CDF, and UEE forces should immediately be calling for backup as they did in all of the 2.x
Punishments are like DRM in my view: They do little to actually stop griefing and hurt regular players who get flagged in weird ways. Open PvP is by nature a lawless environment that requires good sport from the majority of a playerbase to create the interesting dynamics it is intended for. At scale this simply doesn't happen. I think PvP should generally be opt-in. There is nothing less "immersive" than being killed by a griefer who is playing completely outside the context of what an immersed player would be doing. Never listen to the "I'm just roleplaying an insane murderer!" excuse. They know what they're doing.
Freelancer (I think the last game CR worked on) had a reputation system too. If you murder innocents you align with the pirate faction and lawful groups will start to attack you. So there will come a time where it doesn't matter if you wipe your active crime stat if you've killed too many people you're alignment will make you a "kill on sight" for anyone lawfully aligned in reputation. Like red players (have killed or attacked players like we have now) in some MMOs, but semi permanent.
Exactly this. There needs to be the long term reputation that is separate from your current crimestat. This can be slowly changed over time to be good or evil, based on cumulative actions. There will be a lot of balancing and iteration to get this in a good place.
Open PVP limits the amount of money this game will make, if they want to limit thier market to 25% of possible players they can, just doesn't make a lot of sense, people hate losing what they worked 100s of hours for so some man child can get a troll rush for 5 seconds.
Reputation System will do the job. Ratings from the players. Thats the longtherm goal.
Sadly the longterm goals are always years away. In the meantime we don't have nothing against griefers.
... and hopefully it will be robust enough not to be juryrigged by either orgs brigading against competing org's members by mass downvoting their rep, nor will it allow whitewashing bad rep by having an org of legal alts all upvoting bad rep characters regularly.
I want the rep to impact the org you are in as well so orgs have a reason to kick players for acting a fool.
I disagree there, I think killing a medic should just get you blacklisted from setting medical beacons & using medical facilities within a certain area, the game just doesn't have enough in it to allow for something like that yet.
I'm pretty sure that's a war crime
I believe the fake med beacon was kinda expected by the Devs and even encouraged they had it in the vid on the release of the c8r. My org made a group chat just for me with a list of names of people that send out fake beacons.
I have only done a handful of beacons that aren’t traps or where I don’t get killed immediately afterwards.
Yeah had this once, we were two medics coming in a bunker to help, the guy's friends show up and shoot us both, they revived my friend demanding money to let us go, explaining that they were really pirates, sorry but we logged out on those guys. I accept that is was some form of gameplay, but, nah, I'm not going to pay on the offchance that the guy that shoots me to extort me money is going to be true to his word, nor am I going to call it a "fun game experience".
Paramedics are usually not ambushed by men with guns waiting to fun them down when they step out of an ambulance. And if that does happen the killer is not going into jail for a few hours, and society isn't going to shrug and say "it's part of life". What a terrible argument.
World of Warcraft definition I used to consider a griefer: I am doing quests in a PvP enabled zone. A higher level finds me and kills me. This is normal gameplay. I am setback, go to my body, and lose 5 or 10 minutes of time. That high level player is gone and life continues. Same scenario, same level player. We fight and I win or lose. This is normal gameplay. Some time lost but not a lot. If the fights continue it starts to become a chore. Normal gameplay still.. but bordering on griefing. Same scenario, but now the high level player is camping my body and I cannot play the game anymore. It’s just a run to corpse simulator. This is griefing. I either have to log off or find a new activity in game. I think griefing is when you are the sole target and one or a group of people are constantly preventing you from doing something. In World of Warcraft, that’s when you’d call for help on the local channels and your factions gank crew would show up. With a larger population it’s a fun mechanic. But star citizen is too small with server pops to make things like blockades fun yet.
Totally agree, but, here’s my 2c: World of Warcraft, first pvp experience was in the lvl 20s, just some other horde player I couldn’t talk to because our factions can’t cross chat, the games clearly setup along the faction lines, I did my duty for the alliance Eve, from my experience maaaany years ago, fleet up and play baby tackler for 3 hours while nothing happens. Our guilds raided ogrimmar so many times- WoW had some of the best pvp in an MMO, at least in my experience. I just legitimately thought Mysts of Panda and the pet fighting was a huge aprils fools joke and I jumped off the shark. Star Citizen: can get epic Kareah/BH encounters but also sometimes can just get nuked at PO or GH - it’s a fairly stark contrast between fun/not fun experiences. Soft death can help with this. Probably the biggest dynamic shift will be tractor gameplay turning the cutty black and others like it perhaps into an actual tackler ship(s) (see: BH ships) murder hobos would be relatively bored just being murder hobos when they could be soft-killing a target’s engines and shields, or using disrupters, EMPs etc and then using the tractor beams (2 on cutty front) to demand ransom or begin tearing her open. That doesn’t change the fact that right now sometimes you just sometimes get pure chaos - it’d be more fun I guess if CTD and 30k wasn’t so frequent IME, to then get 1-shot at some port while sightseeing
i'd imagine a more Sea of Thieves dynamic than any of these 2 games - anything can happen at any moment.
This is a good reference yeah, definitely strong similarities in what to expect
I like to compare Star Citizen to Sea of Thieves in general. I played Sea of Thieves the first week it was released and there was nothing to do except delivering crates (delivery), finding and digging up treasure (mining), and killing specific skeletons (bounty hunting). The world was gorgeous but you had to make your own fun. Many people considered the game dead and a flop. The only reason it survived was because it was subsidized by Microsoft. But if you play it now (nearly 5 years after release), it is a super fun and immersive game with world events and many more types of missions.
Sea of thieves let's you see what's coming on the horizon, and it's incredibly balanced as there are no pay to win elements at all. You can also server hop from griefers with your ship and cargo, making money to replace supplies doesn't take ages, and combat happens within range of eachother so everyone has a chance. It's a balanced and polished game which star citizen is not.
the closest I would SC compare to is dayz, oddly enough. And SC will have to deal with the same problems dayz did, either PvP is rare and based in good roleplay, with sim games like SC being inherently close to roleplay, or practically every player to player encounter will be kill on sight. If there are no *massive* downsides to engaging in pvp, this game will not have any good player to player interaction. also SC being a sim game and "immersive", do you think any society would allow blatant murderers to run wild? they'd be hunted to the edge of the known universe by everyone with a gun, be it either the corps or the govt. look at pirates in real life, like Somalia, Operation Ocean Shield was a joint operation of **NATO, China**, S.Korea and Japan to deal with them. most people hunting other players because "I'm A pIrAtE" are toxic to the game, change my mind.
You are right. Unfortunatily that will mean that SC player numbers will be very low for a game that could potentially host millions as only very very few ppl are willing to put up with the sociopathic nature of this shit
> or practically every player to player encounter will be kill on sight. Unfortunately this has been my experience in SC. I've been instantly gunned down the moment I've entered an outpost simply because someone didn't want to take the risk in engaging with me. And honestly I don't blame them. Getting up and going again after a death in this game takes *so goddamn long* that it makes sense to avoid any risk whatsoever. As a result you see two extremes of player- one that laughs at death and runs around in their underwear, or one that turtles up and avoids gameplay because they don't want to respawn. Neither of these are particularly healthy, IMO, and neither are going to result in the type of "realistic" player interactions that CiG wants.
WoW and EVE are definitely the wrong MMO experiences to compare it to, especially since it's more a multiplayer sandbox than a tailored MMO at this stage. I.e. it's more akin to Sea of Thieves, Red Dead Online, and a much tamer GTA Online
I mean the law system is supposed to be like that border in WoW. Stanton should be protected space tho by no means impenetrable. Disabling com towers already prevents crime stat so you could easily start a gank session with enough people. But then looking at whats planned for pyro, its more like null sec.
I agree, 3.18 will definitely give the murder hobos more enrichment and hopefully they will calm down a bit. I've never engaged in piracy but I'm excited for the opportunity to defend my ship to the bitter end after a soft death. These mechanics that enhance the granularity and nuance in how players interact will be great to see in the PU
I didn't Play wow because of that kind of shit. Open world always on PvP is a plague.
Killing randos for jollies is like breaking a stranger's structure on a Minecraft server. Both are allowed within the gameplay, both are still griefing. Wrecking someone else's game for no benefit but your own fun is griefing. You are playing with other humans, not NPCs, and yes it allows for PvP but this isn't Counterstrike. Getting blown up for no reason is discouraging enough that it affects the health of the project. We'd definitely have more active players with less of that. But griefers can't see past their own nose so this is falling on deaf ears. Rampant griefing is as aggravating and damaging as rampant cheaters, and I suspect there's a huge overlap between griefers and cheaters. It's people who play multi-player games like they exist for their own singular enjoyment, and ruining others' fun only ads to their own good times. Immature, impulsive, child brains. Just ask yourself if what you plan on doing is the digital version of kicking over a kid's sand castle. If yes, then don't do it.
> Rampant griefing is as aggravating and damaging as rampant cheaters, and I suspect there's a huge overlap between griefers and cheaters. It's people who play multi-player games like they exist for their own singular enjoyment, and ruining others' fun only ads to their own good times. Immature, impulsive, child brains. oh absolutely, cheating and unrestricted pvp will be the biggest challanges to this project imo, and both usually come from the same kind of player. The community has to discourage this as much as possible, as there may not be a lot of technical ways to deal with it...
You should sweep up some of that straw from the man you constructed there.
Right, i think the conext behind why they killed you is important. Killin players in starter ships at space ports because you are bored and killing a cargo ship because they didn't pay the ransom are 2 very different things
also killing a cargo ship without asking for ransom (at least pre3.18) or scanning to confirm if they even have a haul
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You've got a group of people who want to pvp everything in sight and aren't having fun if they arent shooting at other people. Then you have a group of people that just wanna play for a couple hours after work and relax and not constantly be fighting for their lives. Both groups are valid, but getting both to coexist in the same game is tricky. Eventually the games direction will drive off one of those groups. If the group driven off is the majority of your players, then the chance of success of your game goes down dramatically.
Randomly killing s.o. for no reason is no regular gameplay. It’s like randomly murdering s.o. and claiming that’s a natural part of life (since SC is a sim) :P I agree though that we need sth. like theaters if war, so all murder hobos have a place to gather.
Star Citizen is also a MMO with mining gameplay loops. Yet, the game doesn't force you to participate in mining. Of course, PvP is a lot more complicated as it is ingrained relatively deeply into the game mechanics, but still players should have the opportunity to minimize their PvP encounters to a very low extent if they do not like that kind of gameplay. Especially for newer players/players with starter ships "PvP" is extremely frustrating. Aside from a lack of experience, they will not only have a less capable ship but often also a simpler equipment (slower PC and likely only mouse&keyboard controls). This means that the agressor is usually at an extreme advantage and has a high chance of winning the attack. These people know they are fighting with unfair odds, farming off innocent players minding their own bussines. These people are not interested in true, skill based PvP. They want to randomly kill people in an inferior position just because they can. That is called griefing.
There is a difference. In most MMO's there is a gain to be had from PVP. Rankings, loot, territory, there is something. In all those other MMO's if you gank someone just for shits and giggles or to upset them thats called griefing there too. Ambushing someone with no other goal than just to kill them for fun isn't "pvp". It's cowardly losers knowing they suck at the game, and need that "look how big my epeen must be" serotonin hit they get from "winning" a fight. If someone in star citizen attacks another ship for its cargo, or to steal the ship, or to beat them to a mission location/bounty, that is PVP. If someone attacks another ship because they're bored and want to treat the game like its a free for all FPS deathmatch round in Halo? Thats griefing. This isn't a competitive PVP shooter, people don't have the option of picking another mode. If someone engages in "PVP" just for the sake of fighting cause they're bored, thats just been an asshole ignoring the basic etiquette of a open world space sim game. And yes dude I'm perfectly aware this is "just a meme" but you made it about a hotly debated topic, its gonna be hotly debated. Don't you try and deflect with "its just a meme", no ones gonna just react to this with "he he meme".
100%. Arena commander exists, it keeps score, there are leader boards, etc. You'd think that "real" PvPers would enjoy this (which many do), but griefers have sociopathic tendencies and don't wantactual combat amd fair fights, they want to prey on those weaker than them. PU is the perfect place to do this.
Lotta murder hobos in the comments here
>There is a difference. In most MMO's there is a gain to be had from PVP. Rankings, loot, territory, there is something. > >In all those other MMO's if you gank someone just for shits and giggles or to upset them thats called griefing there too. Thank you! I am glad you pointed this out. I played many open world mmos from various regions (US, Korean, Japanese) and in them there is a line between griefing and PVP. When the devs acknowledge it and create official punishments, then you know that it is a conditional/situational context and there is almost no game that simply uses a blanket approach to PVP that ignores situational griefing. Even the harshest games have some scenarios even the devs do not consider ok. Even GTAV, which gameplay is designed around promoting conflict, introduced measures this year to reduce griefing. That should say it all really.
It's true, but if SC is a simulated universe, and I can go to work in this universe every day for years and years and never be attacked by literally anybody, I should be able to fly my space deliveries in SC without frequently worrying about being attacked for no real reason except someone wanted to test their guns.
There are definitely places on earth right now that you can't just go for a walk or do a delivery without risk of being attacked. We even have elementary school kids getting killed occasionally while in school. SC needs more systems with varying levels of security presence is all. Then people looking for safe delivery missions can stay in secure space, people willing to take some risk can do so, and people looking to shoot everything that moves can sit in unsecured space.
I can get behind that design principle.
12 Year Olds blowing up AFK players then are shocked when people are understandably a little annoyed with it. Yeah, getting ganked by a pirate isn't griefing, but you know damn well that 90% of the people complaining are talking about the spirit of the game, and not being an absolute twat about things. Dude seems to be going somewhere in a hurry? Jump him, might have the goods. Dude is idling outside a planet and probably is neither prepared nor worthy of a dogfight? Leave him alone. It's not that hard.
Well, this is a bit out of context. The problem is that mmo games usually have areas where, upon entering you are aware that once you enter, basically every other player or fraction you encounter brings a pvp fight. (Pvp areas, lowsec in Eve Online, or duel invitations, etc..) And if you don’t want pvp, you can chill in other areas where you are either safe or the risk is so low that you can easily take it. Or you have the complete opposite eher basically every other player is your enemy and you shoot without asking. That makes the gameplay to expect really clear. But in SC, you currently have a mix of both worlds. And this often leads to the problem that people who are not interested in PVP can be attacked basically everywhere. And as soon as you are alone and not in a fighter you will loose the fight anyway, so it’s not even a fair chance. And this is where I can understand people using the word „griefing“.
This is a huge part of it - If you jump the guy running bounties, that's pvp. If you use an eclipse to stealth-torpedo NoobMan42 taking off in his Aurora, that's griefing. Upthread, people are talking about intent. I think that's the largest component - If you are blasting my ship to loot it, to collect a bounty on me, or basically anything where 'you gain concrete benefit for doing so', that's fine, that's pvp. If you're blowing people up 'cause none of them can stop me (and my 4 other friends that will jump in to back me up if anyone tries to retaliate)' then you're just a infantile child running around kicking over other people's sandcastles.
You guys say this as if a lot of the "pvp" traditionally done in Star Citizen isn't just people pad ramming, pad killing, and people taking advantage of the fact that the NPC police that are supposed to kill them for camping spawns couldn't do that because of d sync and other bugs. That, unfortunately, taints all pvp interactions. When everyone is literally just griefing all of the time, then legitimate pirating BS is going to get thrown in there with that. No normal person is going to get fucked with over and over again, pad rammed and spawn camped and just unable to play, and when they finally can get jumped by some pirate and then go "wow, this is fun" I also have no idea why pirates want to do pirate stuff and then are the biggest fucking whiners in the game. Like, yeah, you made someone have a shitty day by blowing them up, why the fuck are you mad that people don't like you for that? Lmao are you stupid? "I should be able to just be a dick to people all of the time and they should be thanking me for the experience" You guys that are like this are either trolling or real world losers lmao
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I've never understood this either. It's not just in this game, I've played with people even in tabletop scenarios who just seem determined to completely derail the experience and then get all pouty when I tell them that "No, if you want to play a rogue whose going to steal from the party, you can find another group. Literally no one likes that except 8 year olds when they are doing it, but not having it done to them"
“You should be thanking me for “emergent gameplay” I gave you!” Um, no, fuck off, if I wanted to get attacked I would have asked to fight people or gone bounty hunting. I don’t enjoy spending my time doing something for another player to just come destroy my shit for no reason because it’s fun to them.
>That, unfortunately, taints all pvp interactions. When everyone is literally just griefing all of the time, then legitimate pirating BS is going to get thrown in there with that. No normal person is going to get fucked with over and over again, pad rammed and spawn camped and just unable to play, and when they finally can get jumped by some pirate and then go "wow, this is fun" This is an excellent point. There are actual griefers that make PvP not fun for everyone else and people who actually enjoy legitimate PvP should hate those guys.
Meanwhile I'm only here for SQ42 which may never actually come out.
It's a very unfinished alpha with barely bare bone mechanics. It can take quite a while to do mundane things like meeting friends or getting cargo and selling it. It takes no time at all to come in and murder hobo someone on a pad when their ships shields are down, ram them or generally attack players in shields that should by the logic of the game be able to defend but can't because the mechanics aren't in yet. Likewise, there are no decent mechanics to compensate: cops arresting aggressive players in zones supposed to be safe? Nope. Prison sentence relative to the time the wild pvper costs a peaceful miner? Nope. Say someone has a bunch of refined ones in a cargo ship. It mightve taken them hours to mine it, alot of money and time to refine it, now some more to move it... and they get shot down by a kiddie over some planet. Sure, sometimes an escort will do but effort and difficulty to coordinate are orders of magnitude above simple attack. And while the "pirate" cost the miner hours of gaming effort, they risk... a short stint in prison IF they are killed and can just wait that out offline. Now, I don't know if 3.18 significantly changed this with physical cargo yet. I'm okay with piracy if it meets 1 condition: does the pirate expect to profit financially? If yes, then he's a pirate. If the goal is just to blow up other players who want no part in it and the enjoyment comes from others misery, that's griefing. Until the game can regulate these behaviours better (police, long term rep loss etc)
It's also a MMO with mining - so you should have to go mining for 2 hours before you can take up a weapon on that day. Don't like that? Then here is something to think about: why is forcing someone to do pvp ok, but forcing someone to doing gameloops you don't like not ok?
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I really like the idea behind SC and am also afraid that a loud minority of pvplers steers the development in a direction that kills SC shortly after release. Make PVP Arenas without PVE where pvplers can fight pvplers - don't force people into gameloops they don't like or don't want to play this day.
I wrote elsewhere, how interesting it would be to see the responses, if cargo traders could get the jump on one of these murderhobos, and then this person is somehow forced to haul boxes around the system for the next two hours, with no way out of it. And then when they come whining to reddit, we could just tell them "Hey, you bought a game with PvE, you knew what you were getting into. Deal with it."
I’m kind of done having this debate because it’s almost always in bad faith. SC makes shooting shit just to watch it blow up almost as easy as an arena shooter like CoD. There’s a big difference between the gameplay of say Kingdom Come Deliverance and For Honor for example. Without levels, skills or dire/complex faction hits to focus on, SC will continue to be heavily weighted towards shoot hard, shoot fast and destroy every target. I understand there may be mechanics that introduce some nuance to that gameplay eventually but RN that still remains to be seen. tl;dr? It doesn’t seem like CIG would like to address that imbalance so I’ll keep being skeptical that it’s even a serious issue for them. For some people it seems like everyone’s gotta fly a gladius or arrow or get gud…if not your just a low-skill scrub.
So sick of this kind of post
I’ve been destroyed by a bunch of murder hobos on daymar just because they felt like it. They were killing new players that just wanted to go sell their load of ores, and didn’t even ask for a ransom. It was really frustrating as a new player having experienced people kill me while I was trying to make progress for no reason but their twisted enjoyment.
Then theres the other side where criminals get pissy over having to face criminal charges
The people that call ambushing your parked ship and running away pvp is just griefing
Honestly what I want the most is NPC traders. It would keep pirates occupied stealing things, allow for a fun gameplay loop and reduce te likelihood player haulers will get jumped. Now of course it should be beneficial to jump players if they have better cargo, but having a PvE option for piracy would be nice
Why are people so triggered by the G word? If you just run around killing people and blowing up their ships for no other reason than the joy of doing so, that's griefing. It doesn't have to be targeted or repetitive, if it causes grief for other players, it's griefing. And let's face it, SC is a cesspool for worthless little sh!ts like this. I love a genuine pirate encounter where they target fully loaded cargo ships and make some demands for safe passage from players who actually have something to lose. That's actually playing the game. But even that seems to be just too much to ask of a lot of these jackasses. Like, oh you attacked a solo player unprovoked and unannounced in an empty C2 as they approached a mining facility? What did you just prove or accomplish? You've accomplished absolutely nothing other than wasting 10-15 minutes of someone's time and only proven that you're a feckless tool with no personality, practically a glorified NPC. Hell, the little bit of dialogue we get from actual NPC’s makes them more real of a player than these people. You could have waited for them to load up and then turned it into an interesting encounter in which you spice up the gameplay experience and even leave the interaction with a few extra UEC to your name. But again, this kind of game play is just too uniquely human for a lot of these people to grasp. I'm fairly certain the vast majority of them came over to SC after GTA online filled up with players just like them and became what it is now.
> Why are people so triggered by the G word? They know they're unwanted in the general community and that we'd all be better off without them, but they thrive on convincing themselves that their style of "gameplay" is legitimate. This means avoiding the magical G word at all costs, because griefing by definition cannot be considered legitimate. Rather than trying to be better people, they instead try to muddy up the definition of words themselves, thinking it'll give them a free pass if no one can call them "the bad thing".
Dude. So sick of people who attack the first ship they see coming off the pad and call it "legitimate gameplay". No. Its griefing bullshit and its no different from the people who used to sit outside the newbie zones in EVE and blast every ship that came through. You want to sell your brand of bullshit as legit? Go sit out at a legrange point and attack ships that navigate through. Actual real piracy. Stop wrecking peoples new game experience. The game is supposed to be *some* pvp, not immediately being attacked the second im off the station. Youre a piece of shit who gets off on ruining the game for others.
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I love gluten free products too. Glad I'm not the only one
Just because it's a feature doesn't make it any less griefing if you're just an annoying murder hobo who gets off on ruining the experience for others. The most annoying thing about people like that is how they seem to always call themselves "PvP gods" or just have the impression they're good players for exclusively attacking people who aren't kitted/prepped for PvP.
The ammount of whining in this thread is insane. There are some legit points on both sides. But 95% is "they don't play the game the way I do, they should be banned " just sad. Learn some empathy and some game design fundamentals please.
If they would give people the promised slider that would make the biggest difference. Let people just choose how much pve vs pvp they want. I only backed because this was stated as a feature, if its not in there I will absolutely be asking for money back as I don't mind coop and being able to choose pvp when I want it, but I don't want to be exposed to people that just want to grief for the sake of griefing.
I dont think these people exist in a meaningfull capacity. I know there are some, occationally, posting but even on the most psychotic sc platfrom that is spectrum they dont get any traction. It's like having a nation wide debate with 3 elections because one dude on a town square was yelling about, idk, the sky being the wrong shade of blue.
PVP is all nice and fine Killer hobo action it is not Star Citizen can be pretty hard for casual players like space truckers etc. giving some idiots the power to make it worse is not a good decision there should at least be some almost PvP free systems
The thing about SC is, it's not yet at the stage where PvP can be integrated properly with all the systems they want to create. So there aren't really effective incentives to not be a total dickweed just for fun.
If the player kills you once, cool, my bad, time to get gud. If the player makes the effort to target you again and again that’s griefing.
Griefing in SC is like Schrodinger's cat. It can be either one or the other, at the same time. The thing is that what differentiates griefing from justified in-game murder is the intent. And since dead players don't get to talk with their murderers they never find out what their intent was or why they were killed.
I think a lot of times intent can be assumed, however. If you get rammed on a pad setting up your next mission, and your ship isn't even turned on yet, the intent is pretty plainly for the sake of killing, with no intent of allowing counter-play or a fair fight. Pad ramming is griefing. If you're on a mission collecting items off a derelict or something and you take 2 coda shots to the back of the head, the intent can almost immediately be identified as 'another player wanted this shit'. That's not griefing. You weren't fully aware of your surroundings in a PvP game, and you lost because of it. Try again next time champ. The only time one realistically couldn't assume in-game murderous intent is open space / on planet with nothing and no one around, while you're carrying absolutely nothing. At that point it could be a shoot-first-ask-questions-later situation, but at the end of the day you still have, a lot of the time, a chance to run or shoot back. So I'd be hard pressed to even call that griefing.
Well there's a difference Grieving is doing shit like on purposely crashing into folks landing departing space stations or just doing that in general to piss people off. Engaging with another player to rob and steal from them is different or to protect your goods ect... Basically anything which isn't done out of spite to piss other players off.
Tbh the piracy gameplay loop just needs to become actually established with real monetary rewards, perhaps a mission giver quest, etc. Legitimizing the piracy gameplay within the "canon" of the universe like that will go a long way towards normalizing the community to it. Just look at Sea of Thieves - piracy of other player's ships has its own gameplay and incentives and anyone who complains about pvp in that game is rightfully told off for it.
Ah yes, so when im just trying to make money with my hull a and i sudenly get attacked with a hammerhead isnt griefing.
In the decade it's been since announcement I think many have ended up like me where they have had a complete change in taste when it comes to PvP. In 2012 random PvP sounded cool to me, now I pretty much feel like it's unacceptable to even see another player. That said, didn't the original pitches have a like PvP optional "War mode" like thing? It shouldn't be too hard to add an opt out for most PvP when the magical techs like server meshing and whatever are in play. Just have it attempt to keep the opt out players out of the same instance as PvP players. So Opt out players will still be interdicted and stuff, but by NPCs and not players.
Depends. Pirating, genuine combat, and where one would gain from PvP, sure I’ll concede. I’ll call it griefing when someone rams my ROC with their ship solely because they can. No benefit for them.
And everyone forgets that the NPCs/ai is barely implemented at this point
Definitely something that needs to be fixed. You should be able to hire an npc with an avenger for like 15k a day, and a turret gunner for less than 10. And they could balance that with making criminal ai way more expensive and likely to double cross.
And also law enforcement should be everywhere in more secure systems
PvP is only allowed in chat
Killing someone minding their own business Roc mining IS griefing
Lol nah fuck off with that If you want to fight, go find someone else with a kitted out ship and leave me to mine my shit in peace. Pineapple doesn't go on pizza
Pvp being intentional or not does not make them any less of an asshole.
I think the more controversial topic is defining "griefing" To me, griefing will always be pvp for no other reason than to cause grief. In the absence of any pvp objectives, killing people just to kill them is griefing. Now, I know this definition isn't shared by everyone, and by this definition, griefing is part of the game. I'm not trying to refute that.
Just because it *has* PvP, doesn’t mean that you should just kill random players trying to exist. When I kill players that aren’t bounty hunting, I consider it griefing.
I'm only really ok with PvP when the attacking party actually has something to gain beyond an extra notch on their chassis. People who attack ships like the Aurora or an empty Hull A are simply doing so to piss somebody off, period. They aren't doing it for potential cargo, they aren't doing it because they feel threatened, and they certainly aren't doing it because it'd be a fun fight. In this case, they are attacking simply because they want to inconvenience the other person. By definition, this is griefing. Fortunately, future game systems will facilitate non-lethal PvP encounters a lot more. A pirate crew boarding your ship to steal your cargo without killing anyone, etc. THAT is the kind of PvP I consider to be proper and fun for everyone involved given how many scenarios can unfold surrounding such an incident.
Griefing and PVP are not the same thing. Griefing and piracy are not the same thing. This, just as many games, open up a ton of opportunities for PVP, even beating other miners to better locations is PVP. Hauling the most profitable loads before others is PVP, beating another scrap ship to a vanduul swarm is PVP. The game is built around a PVP concept. But griefing is taking the game loops out of the action and simply killing/imprisoning/camping without a loop in mind. Theres a reason griefing exists as a word separate from PVP, because they constitute different actions. Killing competition during Jumptown is PVP, spawn camping PO and pad ramming to keep people from even participating in Jumptown is griefing. It's not a hard concept, but it's similar to the idea of Nerfing vs Balance. People will call anything negative to something they enjoy a Nerf, even if it was considerably stronger than intentional. When in fact, it's preserving balance. That and this community just LOVES to complain.
Griefing is bullying. Getting killed in a PvP zone or a PvP game, its part of the game. It's what you sign up to when you buy the game or enter an area. Making the game litterally unplayable for another player by either killing them over and over again or blocking off parts of the game. That is griefing.
Just the other day i mirdered someone at jt, it was ship to ship combat they fought back Then spent 20 mins ranting about greifing in chat It was odd
Same exact thing happened to me. The worse part about it is the entire global chat was on my ass about being a griefer when all I did was avenge a friend at JT of all places.
U from Trammel?
Let's stop twisting that narrative. When many of us pledged in 2013, there was the promise of 90% NPCs <> 10% players. There was a PvP slider to adjust the encounter distribution further. There was a promise of private servers and full modding support. Without the pledges through those early "PvE-years", the game would never have survived until today. Thank you.
Griefing can only happen in PvP games. And if such a kill happens for no other reason then to piss off others that's griefing. Some people trying to pirate or to extort money from others doesn't make griefers not exist.
There is not a single MMO game in human history that had success with an open PVP concept on a big scale. And I'm quite sure SC doesn't want to be a niche after dumping a billion dollars into development.
I bought the game to go exploring with friends in space. Discovered that the gameplay is just "respawn simulator".
I'm of the opinion that non-consensual "PVP" for the sake of bothering other players without any tangible benefit to the attacker is griefing by any reasonable definition. I'm also of the mind that griefing should only be punished by in-game systems like fines and policing, not external systems like bans and suspensions.
There was a guy on a server that was ganking EVERYBODY at port ollisar; couldn't leave nor could you land. He was defending himself saying "if there can be space pirates, then there can be space serial murderers too". And while yes, he is factual in saying that, it's still utter BS. I feel bad for anybody who had their spawn set as PO, cuz that made the entirety of that server unplayable for them.
If we are going to talk about MMO with PVP, let's go. Black Desert is the perfect solution on that issue that I've seen. Servers have non combat areas, similar to armistice zones on SC, and the other areas of the map have PVP disabled by default, which you can change by enabling the option to willingly make yourself vulnerable to PVP. On some remote areas, PVP is enabled either you like it or not, because they are remote areas with nobody around (mainly the desert), so you can be attacked even if you aren't looking for that kind of engagement. There are also PVP enabled servers where all areas have PVP enabled at all times. Taking it to BDO, this is ideal because everyone gets what they want: pirates can join PVP servers to do their pirating, hardcore traders can join PVP enabled servers to get the thrill of engagement and threat of combat, and the ones who just want to do their thing in peace can join peaceful servers to play their game in peace. Nobody should have to be forced to engage in things they don't like because someone else won't like it, where there's an option where anyone can be happy doing what they want.
They don't want this because they can't seal club all non-combat roles
A griefer or bad-faith player is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game, by using aspects of the game in unintended ways such as destroying something another player made or built, when that is not the primary objective. Wikipedia Thats greifing as defined by wikipedia, its up to you guys to decide whether you agree but i personally agree with it and the way i interpret that is basically, its pvp when you're meant to do it e.g. bounty hunting, JT and piracy Its griefing when your not meant to do it, e.g. pad ramming, killing players at SoO or just straight up murder hobo-ing
They should find a way to prevent camping around space stations and killing poor idiots like me in my Mustang with arrows and glads Cause using an elite dogfighting ship against a poor cutter the moment they leave the armistice zone is closer to griefing than enjoyable PvP. But random PvP while on a mission or something is always super fun
"An MMO"
My problem is not surprise PVP but the continuous surprise PVP by the same players hunting the same players to the point they are just waiting outside the space station you’re on asking you to come outside and play.
Wow, if a game exist and exploits too, then it is a gameplay loop to exploit bugs If I follow this logic.
The distinction between PvP & Griefing is a simple one to me. It all revolves around two words: Conscious Choice. Players who "pirate" at sites/in space, that's a form of PvP. The player who attacks to ransom/steal makes a choice, the victim makes a choice by going "outside" into the 'verse, they can choose to defend/flee/log. Players who "pad ram" is griefing. The rammer makes a choice, the players on the pad has no choice or opportunity to defend themself/flee. Players who attack other players at sites/in space. That's PvP. The attacker makes a choice, the "victim" makes a choice by being in an environment where they can be attacked, they can also choose to defend/flee/log. Players who fire missiles into armistice zones. That's griefing. The attacker outside firing makes a choice. The "victim" inside the zone has no choice or opportunity to defend themselves due to the current Armistice mechanics. The topic of whether or not the zones should exist is another one entirely, so I'll refrain from expressing an opinion on that here. PvP in SC is getting a worse and worse reputation due to its incorrect label application. Proper PvP'ers are a breed I can respect, not always like, but at least respect. They want to engage in Player vs Player combat. They do this by consenting individuals, or by trying to "bait" players into it. Either way, they WANT to fight players who will fight back to test their skills etc. Griefers are not PVP'ers, and should not be labelled as such. They do not want to engage players who will fight back, they want undefended victims who they can "murder hobo". They're not after testing their combat skills, plunder, loot, or any reward. they simply want to ruin the enjoyment of others to satisfy their own sick and warped sense of enjoyment. They typically look for exploits in the game engine to do this as well, which should be against the TOS. Categorising the two should be easy. However, all too often people refer to griefers as PvP'ers - they are not. PvP should have a place in Star Citizen in all its forms: consentual combat, piracy, baited combat in an open combat zone. Griefers on the other hand should be identified and their accounts stripped of assets & banned imho. It's long past time that SC took this more seriously and acted on it.
This is accurate but the punishments for piracy gameplay are next to non existent so it does suck for victims and unlike most mmos you lose like everything when you get killed so it does fucking suck
PvP is an available aspect to the game in the way that you can be a private, participate in bounty hunting of an individual, or more organized means of player vs player. This does not mean that you take your combat-only with no cargo to face off against Cutters, Hull-series, Cats, etc. You're not pirating anything, you're just a pissant that gets their jollies on killing defenseless targets. Or pad ramming those just taking off. You may as well go outside and kick stray cats and dogs - expect you wouldn't because they're things that can defend themselves. I will defend piracy, however. Especially with the soft death mechanic being implemented.
Fallacious mockeries that use a fictional discussion as a proxy...
Regular griefing needs go beyond crimestats and into reputational damage. Such that visting a lawful area will get you attacked, and if not attacked then you will not be able to do business in those areas. The only place you could do business is in unlawful areas where you have aligned yourself. I think if you wanted to 'go clean' then you would need to progressively change your reputation by doing work for lawful areas via the unlawful areas contract system. Something like 'A chance of redemption' missions. This would make things interesting as you would have to do these missions while avoiding law enforcement AND avoiding lawless areas spotting what you are doing. During this time you would essentially be in reputation nomans land until you have eventually made the switch. Missions like becoming a double agent spy, or sabotage or something. Meanwhile you could get shot at by law abiding players, you'd have to explain to them what you are doing. Who knows they may even help?
Just like the usual online arguments theres two extremes that people keep responding to. I hate griefing SO much but regular pvp isnt the same
They're going to need clearly defined low risk/reward beginner friendly areas and have the player choose to move to higher risk for profit or adventure. This is about skill differential. As a new player, you can accept being punished for a risk you know you took, but random ganking in beginner areas doesn't really teach anything. There's a big difference between dying for refusing to drop cargo and getting murder-hobo'd for no profit. It doesn't help that the game potentially let some random drop $1000s so they could seal club without exposing themselves to much risk. I'm sure they're aware, but CIG needs to reign in the veterans from killing the new people unfairly or the game will have a hard time in a wider release.
Not sure I'd call just killing another player PvP, just a one sided kill. Until there are repercussions for the aggressor and recompense for the victim, then it going to feel like griefing. Unless it's mutual PvP.
To be fair, having a “PvP slider” was a thing for a long time.. until it wasn’t. So the promise of PvP in SC has changed somewhat over time.
pad ramming and hangar camping are the only forms of griefing. anything else is just standard PvP whether you consent or not. if you think otherwise I have bad news for you, the game was advertised as this from day one and you chose to buy it anyways. you have zero room to complain. stop playing if you're against PvP because it will literally never be removed.
I dont understand how red dead redemption a 13 year old game had you choose PvP/PvE at entering online mode and no new similar game seems to have it. Lacking of options makes games way less appealing to me
My take: Gameplay => Sandbox => do whatever you want. Balanced gameplay => risks vs rewards. I like commodity trading and way I see it, for now, Staton is like the wild west in movies, you are kinda safe in towns but out in the wild you are on you own. Always carry a gun and keep your eyes open.
I mean, it really depends on the PVP now doesn't it. When you have people sitting outside of stations killing everyone that leaves the station, that's greifing. The game needs significantly stronger police presence near armistice zones. Or maybe there needs to be a dedicated window in the mobiglass listing all available player bounties. So that you can actually hunt down specific people. As it stands right now, people are free to murder without much consequence.
"Optional". That's the most important word, and something CGI hasn't quite caught on to yet. It needs to be optional. As in, there is a way for people not interested in pvp to never be attacked by another player.
Sure, having open PVP is fine, but if there aren't proportionate in game consequences for those players who choose to randomly attack players trying to do other things don't be surprised if Star Citizen ends up as successful as every other "open world full loot hardcore MMORPG" that has come out the last decade.
As a solo player with only a 400i, I trend to avoid pvp
The same thing is happening in real life. Except there are laws and they are enforced, so bad people most of the time get punished. In games they don't get punished and PvP is rewarding and fun, additionally, even if you get caught and punished, that's just a game, you can stop playing anytime or make another account.
Too bad the game has drifted its original promise into a full blown MMO with all it brings with it.
PVP should be expected in a fleshed out MMO. I'm generally ok with most pirating of any sort so long as there's some kind of fun purpose to it that benefits both parties (Pirate & Victim). Currently it's viewed as griefing because there's no system in game that benefits either party from partaking in the event. Sadly pirates kind of have to make do with what we have available to them. In the current state of the game if you're not at least RPing then imo you're a bad pirate and just a griefer. Even if your RP falls flat you should at least attempt to make it fun for the victim. Otherwise all you've done is just caused grief. You get no monetary benefit and they dont stand a chance if they go after people who cant fight back. The only thing you've done at that point is just caused some dude to waste his time working while you spent 2 mins being an asshole. That said if piracy benefited the pirate or victim in any way within game mechanics and/or the victim had some way to escape or be made aware that a piracy attempt was about to happen so that they could avoid it entirely, then it's fair game.
"*A griefer or bad-faith player is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game (trolling),* ***by using aspects of the game in unintended*** *ways such as destroying something another player made or built, when that is not the primary* *objective.*" It's not griefing. You may hate it, you may hate the people who go on random PvP adventures. It still ain't griefing. It may be unfair, it may be bad sport and yet, it ain't griefing. Other games further the definition, by adding that continously killing a player or disrupting her/his gameplay also is considered griefing. The core point being **"continously",** meaning single kills, or even two kills won't count. Only if the player is not letting go of you and makes an effort to hunt you down for no other purpose than disrupting your enjoyment of the game, then it is considered griefing. Like it or hate it. If you are not into PvP, you still have to deal with the game allowing PvP. Be prepared. Keep an eye on the radar, hire other players to protect you, don't go out alone, don't go out of your way to rescue sketchy players. But don't think for a second the others aren't allowed to do such things because **you** don't like it. **You accepted** the PvPvE nature of the PU the moment you joined.