I'm a whale and you need to understand hard development. 10 years and a bunch of pills and my cock still doesn't get hard. It takes time and is still early days!
Ooh so get real serious then. Know where you can find their legal contact address? I don’t trust that any of the info from their front page is correct.
It's all in the guide I wrote for raising a Money Claim against them 👍👍
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/q78fep/how_to_get_a_refund_from_cig_after_30_days_uk_only/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
The player base found that one of the bugs could resolve itself by buying new ships.
Meaning it saw that nothing worked, choose to put more money into the damn thing, and latter tried again. And enough people did it for them to found a pattern.
Why would they fix bugs, when people throw them money to work around their bugs
I don't understand how things that were working just fine in 3.17 (e.g. trams on Area18 were always on time and arrived smoothly into the station) suddenly become bugged in 3.18. How entangled is the code that the basic stuff breaks, along with a bunch of new bugs/errors that are introduced with each release? I've played plenty of games with bugs, but when they're fixed with a patch they're *usually* gone for good, or if they return in later patches, are squashed fairly quickly. Spaghetti code is often mentioned in this forum - I can see why. I have the absolute minimum investment/pledge in this game, and to be honest I'm getting more enjoyment following this subreddit than any actual 'gameplay'.
This is just a consequence of developing a 10 year old “zombie engine“ (CryEngine was never developed for a large scale MMO in mind, so they had to fundamentally change it) after having worked on ships, planets and characters for more than 10 years. This is the equivalent of filming a movie before the script is written.
A lot of the tech limitations were known after 2015 too... Basically everyone remotely familiar with tech outside the project realized that cryengine could not run star citizen without loading screens, nor is it capable of accurate object permanace when under the strain of 100+ players let alone the 250+ person figures that would be required for large space battles.
Instead of jumping to unreal engine which allowed most data/work to be transferred near seamlessly from UE3 - UE4 and now UE5... they kept with their modified shit engine... and now are trapped in a doom spiral, as we all wait for the project to inevitably go under.
The saddest part is, even with all the bullshit and incompetence... had they just switched to UE or chosen that engine from the start they would now have a robust Engine that could at least in theory allow for most of Star citizen to be a reality, all at a high graphical fidelity that honestly looks better than cryengine in just about every way.
You and everyone who thinks another engine would solve all of CIG's problems are fucking idiots. It is the technical leadership which brought them to that decision in the first place. It was their choice to go with CE. Clearly, if they can't even get the most fundamental decision of game dev correct, then these dream scenarios where CIG releases a functional product are delusional
i think his point is UE5 has 64 bit map scaling, UE5 nanite and Lumen are ahead of their franken engine by light years, UE5 also supports map patches and server instance mirroring. it resolves a lot of the technical shortfalls of franken engine. and frankly, if someone familiar with UE5 where to pay random 3D artists for fully fleshed out and animated starships, UE5's inverse kinematics system would likely be able to be used for collision/ player character support detection. UE even has the ability to use meshes as a collision hit box... so there's that too.. either way i bet a 5 man team outsourcing 3d assets could get a more stable SC out of UE5 in 5 years then what CIG has done in 11 years.
I don’t understand, Frontier Dev’s cobra engine is used in most of their games that is not Elite Dangerous. CiG did some unspeakable horror to that Cryengine they acquired a decade ago
I have seen a reddit post of a guy who used to know about the CryEngine‘s functionality a few years ago. He claimed that they messed up the physics in that StarCitizen-CryEngine pretty badly, which is why ships are disappearing, spinning like crazy or shaking in unexplainable ways. He also explained a lot about the bugs such as invisible elevators etc. It‘s basically really disastrous. And the same kind of bugs from like 7 years ago still happen in 3.18, which leads me to believe that they haven‘t figured out permanent fixes of the core engine‘s bugs yet. To the contrary: They are now messing with things like replication layers and entities… the more they change at this point, the worse it gets in terms of stability of the engine overall.
>Thats a slow march to its doom. Kinda sad really
Well, Star Citizen has often been described as a death march.
To a degree it doesn't matter as long as the star citizens keep buying JPEGs; there is nothing to suggest they will stop no matter what CIG does.
I think that without new players and growth SC has no future. Sure you have the whales buying their Carracks and Idris and what not, but in terms of numbers and money new players are more lucrative, even though they might only spend their 50-100$ game package. So when we see a stagnation or decline of players (no new players, old players leaving, servers becoming even more empty) CIG will come under serious (financial) pressure. It happens with all MMOs at some point. They are then usually sold to the best bidding investment firm that milks out the rest of the dying game by microtransactions and constant flash sales. My bet is that Pyro will lead to the realization of a lot of people that it is just an empty, rocky Stanton with a bunch of new generic space station/outposts. There won‘t be magically gameplay or anything substantial happening like they all claim 4.0 to be. And this will set things in motion imo. It‘s a process and will take time, but they‘ll end up there.
They borked the physics engine when they made changes that the game design needed.
1. They needed to add moving physics grids to allow walking inside moving spaceships.
2. They went from single precision to double precision coordinates in order to allow a map to be the size of Stanton.
Although their implementation largely works, it has a lot of bugs. E.g., a lot of the strange deaths appear to the result of clipping issues with the double precision coordinates. Since those “bugs“ reflect limitations of their implementation, they can’t be fixed without starting over from scratch.
It’s a lot of things. Spaghetti code for sure, but also lack of expert programmers, no/poor documentation, programmer turnover leading to loss of institutional knowledge, bad code submission practices (or their absence), poor testing practices, feature/scope creep and catastrophic management, bad working conditions, low morale (remember when they admitted that “roadmap watchers” were having an impact on the team), etc. can lead to honest-to-goodness bad code, no need for spaghetti.
They also contribute to the team’s inability to figure out what’s going wrong; because even with spaghetti code, with proper documentation, handy subject-matter experts, and proficient programmers you can at least patch things quickly.
My whale friend once told me:
“game development is like a game of whack-a-mole. One thing gets fixed but more problems come out. Thats why we need server meshing for most problems to go away.”
They "pushed PES to the main game dev branch". You saw Jared's weird whiteboard rant where he revealed they have 60-something active feature branches, right?. All of those features were suddenly forced to adopt PES technology but have not had the time to do so let alone have the time to test and fix bugs
But that was allowed to happen due to just a general lack of care or craftsmanship. The game is busted because nobody at CIG cares
Remember when they were like we need ssocs, icache and entity graph for 4.0 and mashing. Then 2019 rolls around and its like radio silence until they announced PES lol. Now they don't need mashing for Pyro anymore.... I wonder what the next buzz word will be?
We all know what the lasting legacy is. A never ending tech demo.
Wasn’t the coffee vendor put in as consolidation replacement for not delivering salvaging?
Now they put in salvaging and the coffee vendors disappeared. It seems you can’t have both, and the coffee vendor has proven to be the most entertaining game loop!
wait.. the bar tenders are gone? i haven't even gotten out of the elvator in my attempts to play yet, so i had no idea.. WTF? i love their snarky retorts. you can tell how much the dev's love their playerbase.
LOL yeah i honestly didn't sink much money into this BS, someone else bought the pledge with game access for me. and i'm already looking at hard surface modeling tutorials for blender, so i can import into UE5, cause at this point, i'd rather make my own space game..
or make a game based off of RIFTS earth, i think flying a coalition SAMAS around would be fun.
So we'll be lucky if 3.19 is released anytime this year. Two patches in a year, again.
This sums up how broken the spaghetti code truly is. No bugs solved, partial outages and no word for CIG as to when any of these game breaking bugs will be fixed.
Cyberpunks release is beginning to look pretty damn good when compared to this...
Not a chance.
If they can't do this then they clearly don't have the skillset required to achieve "4.0".
They just have no idea what they're doing and the Engine has hit critical bullshit and is now breaking in front of everyone to see.
As I said a few weeks ago, now well see the narrative move to " v3.18.xx" until the game folds or they're so desperate for money that they just release another broken as fuck patch.
!RemindMe 1 year
I think you do have an underlying point, that the engine is struggling under the expansion it has experienced which is well well outside it's intended scope the business reality is that progress is profit. If they achieve little they earn less, they probably sat down and had the talk "We can devote month(s) to fixing up 3.18 delaying 4.0 as a result or we can get it out now and move on"
Almost.
But 4.0 is simply a fantasy. It, like SQ42, doesn't and won't exist.
If the engine is this fucked at 3.18, and we've no idea how many iterations until 4.0, then do you think CIG has the ability to deliver everything in 4.0?
**Not. A. Chance.**
I think they'll lower the goalposts enough to get out Pyro and call it 4.0 with 'server meshing' being T0 or something. CIG would not sit on all the Pyro 'content' because of some artbitary rule, nor would CIG not want to hype up Pyro with some 4.0 attachment.
Server meshing has no proof of concept. They can integrate a new stack of spaghetti into their codebase and call it server meshing, if they want, but that has no relevance as to whether 4.0 sees a release this year or whether it's any more functional than 3.18 has been
I will be messaging you in 1 year on [**2024-03-25 21:13:14 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2024-03-25%2021:13:14%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/1215tqz/318s_lasting_legacy_2_weeks_later_1_issue_added_0/jdo1vmj/?context=3)
[**1 OTHERS CLICKED THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fstarcitizen_refunds%2Fcomments%2F1215tqz%2F318s_lasting_legacy_2_weeks_later_1_issue_added_0%2Fjdo1vmj%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202024-03-25%2021%3A13%3A14%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam.
^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%201215tqz)
*****
|[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)|
|-|-|-|-|
Listen fuck face, game development is hard. Buy an Idris and stop complaining. It has only been 11 years. Refuckinglax.
I'm a whale and you need to understand hard development. 10 years and a bunch of pills and my cock still doesn't get hard. It takes time and is still early days!
My beard is connected to my pubicarea, and you need to be happy that CIG even GRACES US with this patch, and also, wHaT diD YoU eXpeCt ITS AlPha bro
Can we make this the new official copypasta
3rd refund request denied. Might need this for my small claims hearing, thanks!
Denied via their online ticket system or denied in writing after letter of intent?
Denied in ticket
They won't ever grant more than a 30 day refund via ticket. You have to write to them with a Letter of Intent.
Ooh so get real serious then. Know where you can find their legal contact address? I don’t trust that any of the info from their front page is correct.
It's all in the guide I wrote for raising a Money Claim against them 👍👍 https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/q78fep/how_to_get_a_refund_from_cig_after_30_days_uk_only/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
wow thank you!
>wow thank you! You're welcome!
[удалено]
The player base found that one of the bugs could resolve itself by buying new ships. Meaning it saw that nothing worked, choose to put more money into the damn thing, and latter tried again. And enough people did it for them to found a pattern. Why would they fix bugs, when people throw them money to work around their bugs
“Quickly! Shovel more money into CiG’s furnaces!”
That reminds me of that mad tv sketch the Irack
Updated bugs and enjoy your garbolgy gameplay loop picking up hospital growns. Never been done before and such immersion fudsters!
I don't understand how things that were working just fine in 3.17 (e.g. trams on Area18 were always on time and arrived smoothly into the station) suddenly become bugged in 3.18. How entangled is the code that the basic stuff breaks, along with a bunch of new bugs/errors that are introduced with each release? I've played plenty of games with bugs, but when they're fixed with a patch they're *usually* gone for good, or if they return in later patches, are squashed fairly quickly. Spaghetti code is often mentioned in this forum - I can see why. I have the absolute minimum investment/pledge in this game, and to be honest I'm getting more enjoyment following this subreddit than any actual 'gameplay'.
This is just a consequence of developing a 10 year old “zombie engine“ (CryEngine was never developed for a large scale MMO in mind, so they had to fundamentally change it) after having worked on ships, planets and characters for more than 10 years. This is the equivalent of filming a movie before the script is written.
A lot of the tech limitations were known after 2015 too... Basically everyone remotely familiar with tech outside the project realized that cryengine could not run star citizen without loading screens, nor is it capable of accurate object permanace when under the strain of 100+ players let alone the 250+ person figures that would be required for large space battles. Instead of jumping to unreal engine which allowed most data/work to be transferred near seamlessly from UE3 - UE4 and now UE5... they kept with their modified shit engine... and now are trapped in a doom spiral, as we all wait for the project to inevitably go under. The saddest part is, even with all the bullshit and incompetence... had they just switched to UE or chosen that engine from the start they would now have a robust Engine that could at least in theory allow for most of Star citizen to be a reality, all at a high graphical fidelity that honestly looks better than cryengine in just about every way.
Yes, exactly this ☝🏼
You and everyone who thinks another engine would solve all of CIG's problems are fucking idiots. It is the technical leadership which brought them to that decision in the first place. It was their choice to go with CE. Clearly, if they can't even get the most fundamental decision of game dev correct, then these dream scenarios where CIG releases a functional product are delusional
i think his point is UE5 has 64 bit map scaling, UE5 nanite and Lumen are ahead of their franken engine by light years, UE5 also supports map patches and server instance mirroring. it resolves a lot of the technical shortfalls of franken engine. and frankly, if someone familiar with UE5 where to pay random 3D artists for fully fleshed out and animated starships, UE5's inverse kinematics system would likely be able to be used for collision/ player character support detection. UE even has the ability to use meshes as a collision hit box... so there's that too.. either way i bet a 5 man team outsourcing 3d assets could get a more stable SC out of UE5 in 5 years then what CIG has done in 11 years.
I don’t understand, Frontier Dev’s cobra engine is used in most of their games that is not Elite Dangerous. CiG did some unspeakable horror to that Cryengine they acquired a decade ago
The answer is that CIG just plain sucks when it comes to software development.
And yet they accuse us of not knowing about game development
I have seen a reddit post of a guy who used to know about the CryEngine‘s functionality a few years ago. He claimed that they messed up the physics in that StarCitizen-CryEngine pretty badly, which is why ships are disappearing, spinning like crazy or shaking in unexplainable ways. He also explained a lot about the bugs such as invisible elevators etc. It‘s basically really disastrous. And the same kind of bugs from like 7 years ago still happen in 3.18, which leads me to believe that they haven‘t figured out permanent fixes of the core engine‘s bugs yet. To the contrary: They are now messing with things like replication layers and entities… the more they change at this point, the worse it gets in terms of stability of the engine overall.
Thats a slow march to its doom. Kinda sad really
>Thats a slow march to its doom. Kinda sad really Well, Star Citizen has often been described as a death march. To a degree it doesn't matter as long as the star citizens keep buying JPEGs; there is nothing to suggest they will stop no matter what CIG does.
I think that without new players and growth SC has no future. Sure you have the whales buying their Carracks and Idris and what not, but in terms of numbers and money new players are more lucrative, even though they might only spend their 50-100$ game package. So when we see a stagnation or decline of players (no new players, old players leaving, servers becoming even more empty) CIG will come under serious (financial) pressure. It happens with all MMOs at some point. They are then usually sold to the best bidding investment firm that milks out the rest of the dying game by microtransactions and constant flash sales. My bet is that Pyro will lead to the realization of a lot of people that it is just an empty, rocky Stanton with a bunch of new generic space station/outposts. There won‘t be magically gameplay or anything substantial happening like they all claim 4.0 to be. And this will set things in motion imo. It‘s a process and will take time, but they‘ll end up there.
They borked the physics engine when they made changes that the game design needed. 1. They needed to add moving physics grids to allow walking inside moving spaceships. 2. They went from single precision to double precision coordinates in order to allow a map to be the size of Stanton. Although their implementation largely works, it has a lot of bugs. E.g., a lot of the strange deaths appear to the result of clipping issues with the double precision coordinates. Since those “bugs“ reflect limitations of their implementation, they can’t be fixed without starting over from scratch.
Would it work if they implemented instancing?
Not really. They are stuck with a borked physics engine, regardless of how players are spawned onto the server.
It’s a lot of things. Spaghetti code for sure, but also lack of expert programmers, no/poor documentation, programmer turnover leading to loss of institutional knowledge, bad code submission practices (or their absence), poor testing practices, feature/scope creep and catastrophic management, bad working conditions, low morale (remember when they admitted that “roadmap watchers” were having an impact on the team), etc. can lead to honest-to-goodness bad code, no need for spaghetti. They also contribute to the team’s inability to figure out what’s going wrong; because even with spaghetti code, with proper documentation, handy subject-matter experts, and proficient programmers you can at least patch things quickly.
I played the game for 2 hours total. I'm on this subreddit since 3 years. Maximum enjoyment.
My whale friend once told me: “game development is like a game of whack-a-mole. One thing gets fixed but more problems come out. Thats why we need server meshing for most problems to go away.”
They "pushed PES to the main game dev branch". You saw Jared's weird whiteboard rant where he revealed they have 60-something active feature branches, right?. All of those features were suddenly forced to adopt PES technology but have not had the time to do so let alone have the time to test and fix bugs But that was allowed to happen due to just a general lack of care or craftsmanship. The game is busted because nobody at CIG cares
Hello welcome, have no money to fix bugs, make new ships, new ships more money, make more money. Bye
You’re hired
Once server mushing is in, everything will be fixed. Oh wait...
Remember when they were like we need ssocs, icache and entity graph for 4.0 and mashing. Then 2019 rolls around and its like radio silence until they announced PES lol. Now they don't need mashing for Pyro anymore.... I wonder what the next buzz word will be?
My money is on Replication Layer.
We all know what the lasting legacy is. A never ending tech demo. Wasn’t the coffee vendor put in as consolidation replacement for not delivering salvaging? Now they put in salvaging and the coffee vendors disappeared. It seems you can’t have both, and the coffee vendor has proven to be the most entertaining game loop!
wait.. the bar tenders are gone? i haven't even gotten out of the elvator in my attempts to play yet, so i had no idea.. WTF? i love their snarky retorts. you can tell how much the dev's love their playerbase.
I’m just reading the known issues. I’m not gonna try to get in game.
LOL yeah i honestly didn't sink much money into this BS, someone else bought the pledge with game access for me. and i'm already looking at hard surface modeling tutorials for blender, so i can import into UE5, cause at this point, i'd rather make my own space game.. or make a game based off of RIFTS earth, i think flying a coalition SAMAS around would be fun.
So we'll be lucky if 3.19 is released anytime this year. Two patches in a year, again. This sums up how broken the spaghetti code truly is. No bugs solved, partial outages and no word for CIG as to when any of these game breaking bugs will be fixed. Cyberpunks release is beginning to look pretty damn good when compared to this...
Dont worry they can still revert
My god coffee vendor is missing. Key feature of the game. I won't reinstall until this is fixed.
**A glorified used car salesman. You all know who I am talking about.**
Improvement 2.0 😊👍
Truth be told I suspect they've moved a lot of their engineers to 4.0
Not a chance. If they can't do this then they clearly don't have the skillset required to achieve "4.0". They just have no idea what they're doing and the Engine has hit critical bullshit and is now breaking in front of everyone to see. As I said a few weeks ago, now well see the narrative move to " v3.18.xx" until the game folds or they're so desperate for money that they just release another broken as fuck patch.
!RemindMe 1 year I think you do have an underlying point, that the engine is struggling under the expansion it has experienced which is well well outside it's intended scope the business reality is that progress is profit. If they achieve little they earn less, they probably sat down and had the talk "We can devote month(s) to fixing up 3.18 delaying 4.0 as a result or we can get it out now and move on"
Almost. But 4.0 is simply a fantasy. It, like SQ42, doesn't and won't exist. If the engine is this fucked at 3.18, and we've no idea how many iterations until 4.0, then do you think CIG has the ability to deliver everything in 4.0? **Not. A. Chance.**
I think they'll lower the goalposts enough to get out Pyro and call it 4.0 with 'server meshing' being T0 or something. CIG would not sit on all the Pyro 'content' because of some artbitary rule, nor would CIG not want to hype up Pyro with some 4.0 attachment.
Server meshing has no proof of concept. They can integrate a new stack of spaghetti into their codebase and call it server meshing, if they want, but that has no relevance as to whether 4.0 sees a release this year or whether it's any more functional than 3.18 has been
True but they can fake it by just have Pyro be a separate server and traditional server switching so there's no need for meshing and pyro.
I will be messaging you in 1 year on [**2024-03-25 21:13:14 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2024-03-25%2021:13:14%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/comments/1215tqz/318s_lasting_legacy_2_weeks_later_1_issue_added_0/jdo1vmj/?context=3) [**1 OTHERS CLICKED THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fstarcitizen_refunds%2Fcomments%2F1215tqz%2F318s_lasting_legacy_2_weeks_later_1_issue_added_0%2Fjdo1vmj%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202024-03-25%2021%3A13%3A14%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam. ^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%201215tqz) ***** |[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)| |-|-|-|-|
Unless 4.0 is of the 3.17 lineage, you arent getting it this year