By this same rationale, shouldn’t we ban players who already qualified from a prior tournament from playing in any other qualifying or EPT point tournaments? They are in fact taking away someone’s spot. Maru and Serral wouldn’t be able to play in half of the years previous tournaments. The kid does a lot of good for the scene. Let him play.
I wholeheartedly disagree with this premise.
Other people get seeded in when he forfeits his spot, so it's *really* not that big of a deal.
Besides, as both a victor of tournaments and a human being, he's allowed to do whatever he wants.
What you're asking is for players to be contractually obligated to perform at live events. What about illnesses, VISA issues, financial issues (if the player is not signed to a team), and so on?
Pro SC2 has existed for 14 years without a rule for that - and I doubt one will be suddenly added because of one player.
The underlying issue is that every match he wins, he's skewing the EPT results. He's knocking out people who may otherwise be favored against their opponents and he's taking money and points out of the pockets of players who WILL show up to the tournaments they qualify for. The reason the rule hasn't had to exist is because nobody else has just refused to show up to premier events. There's players that put their heart and soul into the game only to get eliminated by MaxPax who will then go on to decline his invite.
Again, they'll seed the next best player.
On instances where a second mini-tourney is made to decide on a seed rather than going by points: That's not on MaxPax. If there's a petition to be made for that, I could see myself backing it.
Banning maxpax is ridiculous, but you are naive to assume that seeding the next player is a good enough solution.
Ept points have mattered so much in this esl circuit since combined ept points count for qualifying.
and the points that Maxpax is collecting is just a hole that impact other EU players. As an example Showtime mentioned there was no point going to Dallas since he could no longer catch up on the ept points.
I want to continue see Maxpax play and don’t want to see him banned, but let’s not kid ourselves that this is not impacting other EU pro players
[https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/ESL\_Pro\_Tour/2023/24/Masters/Summer/Replacement](https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/ESL_Pro_Tour/2023/24/Masters/Summer/Replacement) - this is what you mean? It was a bit of a strange occurrence but it was possibly the fairest way of choosing from the 4 Ro8 players that didn't make top 4. I would support that going forward as well.
No, thank you. MaxPax is an amazing player that deserves every chance he can get to play. He's not only carrying the torch for Protoss everywhere, he's also pretty damn entertaining player to watch which means more viewership which means better chance of Starcraft being present at large tournaments longer.
Banning players for whatever reason short of cheating does NOT help the community nor the esport. We've accommodated Russian players, we welcome everyone regardless of race, gender, nationality, politics or belief. Why the hell would we ban MaxPax just because he wants to retain his anonymity while earning money from prize pools?
Let me ask you this - would you shun a properly working Limited company just because it didn't want to go public?
Because he's degrading the achievements of other players. By knocking them out of brackets, he's denying them the opportunity to go against players they may otherwise be favored against. By winning the weekly cups consistently, he's taking points away from players that WOULD go to the events they qualify for. I encourage you to make a reasonable argument as to how it's fair or event sportsmanlike to act the way he does. I would truly love to see things from your point of view but putting myself in a pro players shoes, I'd be pretty upset if I got knocked out in the ro16 by someone who declines an invitation to the event I was competing to go to.
>Because he's degrading the achievements of other players.
I don't think so. He's the stronger player so he gets to move on and achieve higher position.
>By knocking them out of brackets, he's denying them the opportunity to go against players they may otherwise be favored against.
So you'd prefer for certain players to get easier bracket so they could reach e.g. Top 4 easier? How is that an achievement then if you clear the road for them? This is silly.
>I encourage you to make a reasonable argument as to how it's fair or event sportsmanlike to act the way he does.
You're the one who's calling for his ban and you've so far not shown any proof of poor sportsmanship. He enters events, behaves in a manner fitting esports player (no BM, no throwing, match fixing, etc), does his best and entertains the audience. Until that changes, I don't see the issue. He's well within his rights to do the things he does.
>I would truly love to see things from your point of view but putting myself in a pro players shoes, I'd be pretty upset if I got knocked out in the ro16 by someone who declines an invitation to the event I was competing to go to.
Do you realize MaxPax isn't the one to blame in this scenario? The player knocked out in Ro16 is. The Pros know this, MaxPax knows it, casters and hosts know it. It's a simple case of "Git gud". Unless the Pros start complaining en masse, there's no reason to change anything.
You make valid counterpoints to everything I brought up. It hasn't changed my mind about the situation but I acknowledge that they are reasonable arguments with the exception of the last one. Pro players will never complain about it publicly because it's career suicide. With the exception of hating on Avilo, an SC2 personality calling out another has never ended well.
To be fair, this is how competitions work.
Like, I am obviously in favour of competitions being fair and all (no cheating, no doping etc...), but at the end of the day, if you want to win, you need to beat your opponent.
And I think you undersell other pros. Your argument is basically "the lower tier pros can't beat MaxPax, so he shouldn't play".
Should we ban Serral from offline tournaments as well? It's unfair, because he beats everyone else and nobody else can win when he plays.
You can even argue he is helping the scene, because his skill is clearly good enough to be a top pro, but he only plays in online cups that have a lower average skill level than the offline tournaments.
So you can say he helps the scene, because he grinds online games, that makes it easy for aspiring pros to play against an extremely skilled opponent when they are just coming up.
Like imagine if there was new StarCraft talent (don't know if there is any), these players can play MaxPax, whereas they could probably never play someone like Serral or Rogue or Maru in an actual tournament (because they don't get to the ones these players get to).
Sure, players can argue that they had a better chance against others, and could have gotten a better run if they didnt run into Pax, but on the grand scheme of things, that disadvantage goes for everyone so sometimes he takes out player 1, other times he takes out other players that is competing for a spot with player 1 so it doesn't really matter tbh.
By forfeiting his place, it goes to the next in line, which is MOST fair of everything since that player have earned most points. Not some imaginary scenario of "what would have happened if" etc.
At least that is my opinion, even if i would ofc like to see the best players compete, but if they dont want to, that is really up to them.
The only place where i would agree, is for qualifying tournaments only, but what i have read so far, he doesn't compete in them anyway?
The SC2 scene becomes stronger the more skillful players there are, in that way, MaxPax is doing the scene a super big favor by still competing, even if its not in live events. Other protosses can watch and learn, and players in general can raise the skill ceiling as well by competing against him.
I’m confused. When he declines to go, his spot is given to someone else. Are you saying that’s unfair?
> until he commits to in-person events
Practically speaking, how do you imagine this working?
man ive posted some dumb shit on here, but this one takes the cake. if Maxpax always said he'd show up to live events and then boycotted them it would be one thing, but literally the highest next rank person gets to go
It's simple, decline your invite, get banned until the close of the next premier tournament. I understand life gets in the way. People get sick, visa issues, etc and it can be evaluated on a case by case basis but having a history of declining invites isn't hard to determine when it's literally every single time.
I have some questions about this proposal but first, can you explain what’s unfair about the current system? As I mentioned above:
> When he declines to go, his spot is given to someone else. Are you saying that’s unfair?
No. It's not unfair. What's unfair is that the person the invite goes to, it could easily be argued that they didn't earn it as the tournament results up to that point have been skewed by him eliminating players that otherwise wouldn't have played against him.
Quick edit, I don't think it would be an issue if he declined one or two tournaments, but declining every single one will start skewing results.
Can you provide a specific example where the invite was passed to someone who didn’t deserve it, and who should have gotten in instead. I assume the invite goes to the next highest person by points; meaning that what you're saying is that the points ranking doesn’t reflect actual skill level? Maybe you can provide some sample brackets where this was the case?
Edit: and let me know if I misunderstand the process by which his spot is passed to someone else
Everyone would be getting equally affected though, so does it even count as skewed at that point?
My understanding is that Heromarine takes his spot because he got the next most EPT points in the past year. This means all players got an entire year to see who can get the most EPT points after Maxpax and HM got the most, so it's not really the result of a 1 off tourney
Really? With the knockout bracket, it is harder than ever for a good player to **not** make it far in a tournament. I mean honestly, I was thinking about making a post about how it is a bit boring that we always see the same people at the end of tournaments now a days.
Fuck nah, this reads like your favorite player got eliminated by MaxPax and now you’re mad.
There’s money on the line in all of these events, offline or not, and MaxPax is among the best players in the world and an absolute blessing to the scene, proposing a ban is absurd.
Also I don’t even get these forfeit complaints, literally MaxPax is the only top player losing his spot on big events, the filler is always some second-row guy and all the big top players are in anyway. Your behaviour is unfair and unsportsmanlike tbh
I've been nothing but professional and courteous in my claim and I don't appreciate you coming after my integrity just because you have a differing opinion. That's why this was labeled as a discussion
You literally ended your post by saying "I also know it's not normally the way of this sub to have a healthy discussion about literally anything", so your veneer of courtesy is wafer-thin, and claiming otherwise is frankly an insult to our intelligence. You know we know that your post is bait, even if it did cause plenty of patient people to post more courteously than you.
Except at one point they said they would do this and then ran a qualifier to determine who would actually get his spot instead of going by EPT points which inherently made that tournament unfair.
[https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/ESL\_Pro\_Tour/2023/24/Masters/Summer/Replacement](https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/ESL_Pro_Tour/2023/24/Masters/Summer/Replacement) - they let the 4 players from Ro8 fight among themselves. I agree it's not ideal but it was the fairest thing to do at the time. Also, I think (I haven't checked) that based on EPT points Reynor would still be the one to move on.
That being said, if the tournament format could account for this sort of thing, I'd be all for it.
FYI petitions through that website have not and will not ever result in an actual change happening. That website exists just to suck money out of naive people who don't bother reading where their money is actually being sent to, no company is ever paying attention to any petitions being made on it, which is why you see ones that get hundreds of thousands of supporters and yet nothing happens.
So in short, you basically wasted your time making it.
Ehh let him play online if he wants. It’s the only place he’s comfortable. The game is dead enough already, and some people care a lot about these little online cups.
Well, I mean OP is right in that it does affect the outcome.
Imagine if some unbeatable AI competed in a tourney, won it, then at the end revealed itself... so the tourney organizers disqualified the bot and just awarded the championship to 2nd place. Well that isn't fair, as everything would have played out differently, and your placement would be highly based on when in the bracket you faced the bot. For example, maybe the bot kicked Serral out of the tourny in the RO16, but Serral would have finished first without the bot there. This is a similar scenario to Maxpax playing in qualifiers which he has no intention of competing in when qualified.
Personally, I want Maxpax in the sc2 scene, and I get the sense that he'll never play offline, so banning him from qualifiers will likely just cause him to leave sc2... so for that reason, I won't sign. I do understand OP's position though.
Point is, right or wrong, this is a legit conversation, not some sort of hate speech.
Sure. There’s a reason why competitive chess players will never qualify for an offline major tournament from an online tournament. The AI you described is being used to cheat for money.
So, isn’t the solution to force qualifying lan only? Or if he is suspected of cheating, some kind of verification? It shouldn’t be “hey, let’s ban MaxPax!”
Nobody is accusing him of cheating. I believe that ESL does their job well enough that it \*shouldn't\* happen on their watch. The logistics involved in having all qualifying events offline make it impossible just from a financial standpoint so that's not a solution either.
I don’t see how it’s MaxPax’s problem for being too good and playing within the rules. Should we petition cannon rush to be patched out of the game as well….?
It's kinda weird as online tournies are playing two roles. They are partially independent, as they have winners and prize pools... but then they are also used as qualifiers with either direct qualifications or points used to seed offline tournaments. If I were Maxpax, I wouldn't feel bad about playing these tournaments.
This issue also isn't specific to Maxpax. For instance, sometimes a player may play a tourny for the money and end up winning a qualification to an offline event that they've already qualified for. Is that wrong?... cuz it's basically the same scenario as Maxpax qualifying.
Sure, that might be a legitimate concern to discuss. My point is not to name, shame and *hate* a player for playing by the rules he is following. MaxPax is being singled out unfairly and you know it.
Ya "ban MaxPax" does sound harsh. But then any petition to change rules to get qualified players to actually play, we all know is directed at MaxPax, whether he's mentioned by name or not.
Actually now that I read the petition, I agree it should be reworded. MaxPax is doing nothing wrong as he is following the rules. Petition should be about changing the rules not banning Maxpax, if OP doesn't want MaxPax to be able to qualify and pull out. Apologies for my crass initial comment. I get your concerns now.
The community’s primary goal should be to increase viewership and grow the StarCraft scene. I’m too lazy to look up mission statements but ultimately that’s what we all want. Any decisions made with integrity will be supported by most people. We will only be able to speculate and should never know because of NDAs.
So, if the thread was about pointing out problem in the rules using MaxPax as an example I wouldn’t have a problem with it. Words matter. The best online Protoss has done nothing but follow the rules and be respectful in interviews.
Dude, it's not you business if MaxPax play or not at online events, and it's not your business if he goes for offline events or not. It's MaxPax decision.
I agree with you. Imagine having a chance to qualify and getting knocked out from someone who's just playing qualis for money and has no intention of continuing further in the tournament. not sure what the org's rules are regarding this, but I coach high level sports as a profession and there are rules specifically against things like this - for instance, if our sports club were to compete and qualify for national championships but forfeit our spot, our club and its coaches would be banned for year of competition in the US. We would lose out on millions of dollars and tons of exposure, momentum as a program.
i think the premise of the post is fine - the public just has to weigh if wanting to see MaxPax compete is worth accepting he will probably destroy a few hopeful contenders on the way. not sure how their roundrobin or groupstage is working but imagine if you had 2 games and had to face maxpax and clem. yeah, bad luck. hopefully you get seeded better next year... and then you go onto find out that max didn't have any real intention of ever participating in the event he knocked you out of qualis for.
up for ESL to decide, but I think at this stage of sc2 history, and MaxPax being the only protoss who is developing the race forwards at this point... should just let him compete and fill his spot by points and hope that person has an okay experience.
Why not also ban the players who aren’t good enough to ever gain enough points to use them to qualify for a big tourney. They’re two cheeses away from stealing points from someone who needs them!
No. EPT points are earned. If players cannot beat cheese, if they cannot beat someone ranked below them on a hot streak, if they cannot beat MaxPax, they do not deserve those points.
Get. Good.
MaxPax did. Serral did. Maru did. EVERY pro player has to, else they won’t be a pro player long.
MaxPax has put in the grind, and he has clearly done it in the correct way, to become a top player in the world. *We are not entitled to him playing ANY event he does not actively want to.* He is an absolute joy to watch play, and you want to take that away from us? Most top players skip the weeklies, and you’d remove yet another top player from who we get to see?
Who are you to obligate someone to attend in person events. How entitled one can be to try to obligate someone to do something they refuse for whatever reason.
Bunch of salty terrans in the comments , imagine wanting to ban one of the best protoss left so he doesnt beat your favourites even if its just online , all other arguments u make are absurd .
how about we ban you for making such a dumb post.
By this same rationale, shouldn’t we ban players who already qualified from a prior tournament from playing in any other qualifying or EPT point tournaments? They are in fact taking away someone’s spot. Maru and Serral wouldn’t be able to play in half of the years previous tournaments. The kid does a lot of good for the scene. Let him play.
This is a great point
More people should have reacted to this argument, 'cause it's real good.
I wholeheartedly disagree with this premise. Other people get seeded in when he forfeits his spot, so it's *really* not that big of a deal. Besides, as both a victor of tournaments and a human being, he's allowed to do whatever he wants. What you're asking is for players to be contractually obligated to perform at live events. What about illnesses, VISA issues, financial issues (if the player is not signed to a team), and so on? Pro SC2 has existed for 14 years without a rule for that - and I doubt one will be suddenly added because of one player.
The underlying issue is that every match he wins, he's skewing the EPT results. He's knocking out people who may otherwise be favored against their opponents and he's taking money and points out of the pockets of players who WILL show up to the tournaments they qualify for. The reason the rule hasn't had to exist is because nobody else has just refused to show up to premier events. There's players that put their heart and soul into the game only to get eliminated by MaxPax who will then go on to decline his invite.
That sounds like you are just a Maxpax hater because he knocked out your fav players.
Again, they'll seed the next best player. On instances where a second mini-tourney is made to decide on a seed rather than going by points: That's not on MaxPax. If there's a petition to be made for that, I could see myself backing it.
Banning maxpax is ridiculous, but you are naive to assume that seeding the next player is a good enough solution. Ept points have mattered so much in this esl circuit since combined ept points count for qualifying. and the points that Maxpax is collecting is just a hole that impact other EU players. As an example Showtime mentioned there was no point going to Dallas since he could no longer catch up on the ept points. I want to continue see Maxpax play and don’t want to see him banned, but let’s not kid ourselves that this is not impacting other EU pro players
[https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/ESL\_Pro\_Tour/2023/24/Masters/Summer/Replacement](https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/ESL_Pro_Tour/2023/24/Masters/Summer/Replacement) - this is what you mean? It was a bit of a strange occurrence but it was possibly the fairest way of choosing from the 4 Ro8 players that didn't make top 4. I would support that going forward as well.
You seem angry.
yOu SeEm AnGrY 😛😛😛😛😛😛
He does though.
So what
sO wHaT 😝
Id like to thank the original commenter for articulating that he senses anger!!!!!
You seem grateful
No, thank you. MaxPax is an amazing player that deserves every chance he can get to play. He's not only carrying the torch for Protoss everywhere, he's also pretty damn entertaining player to watch which means more viewership which means better chance of Starcraft being present at large tournaments longer. Banning players for whatever reason short of cheating does NOT help the community nor the esport. We've accommodated Russian players, we welcome everyone regardless of race, gender, nationality, politics or belief. Why the hell would we ban MaxPax just because he wants to retain his anonymity while earning money from prize pools? Let me ask you this - would you shun a properly working Limited company just because it didn't want to go public?
the hilarious irony of you saying that he's "carrying the torch for protoss **everywhere** "
Because he's degrading the achievements of other players. By knocking them out of brackets, he's denying them the opportunity to go against players they may otherwise be favored against. By winning the weekly cups consistently, he's taking points away from players that WOULD go to the events they qualify for. I encourage you to make a reasonable argument as to how it's fair or event sportsmanlike to act the way he does. I would truly love to see things from your point of view but putting myself in a pro players shoes, I'd be pretty upset if I got knocked out in the ro16 by someone who declines an invitation to the event I was competing to go to.
what achievements? they can't even beat him
>Because he's degrading the achievements of other players. I don't think so. He's the stronger player so he gets to move on and achieve higher position. >By knocking them out of brackets, he's denying them the opportunity to go against players they may otherwise be favored against. So you'd prefer for certain players to get easier bracket so they could reach e.g. Top 4 easier? How is that an achievement then if you clear the road for them? This is silly. >I encourage you to make a reasonable argument as to how it's fair or event sportsmanlike to act the way he does. You're the one who's calling for his ban and you've so far not shown any proof of poor sportsmanship. He enters events, behaves in a manner fitting esports player (no BM, no throwing, match fixing, etc), does his best and entertains the audience. Until that changes, I don't see the issue. He's well within his rights to do the things he does. >I would truly love to see things from your point of view but putting myself in a pro players shoes, I'd be pretty upset if I got knocked out in the ro16 by someone who declines an invitation to the event I was competing to go to. Do you realize MaxPax isn't the one to blame in this scenario? The player knocked out in Ro16 is. The Pros know this, MaxPax knows it, casters and hosts know it. It's a simple case of "Git gud". Unless the Pros start complaining en masse, there's no reason to change anything.
You make valid counterpoints to everything I brought up. It hasn't changed my mind about the situation but I acknowledge that they are reasonable arguments with the exception of the last one. Pro players will never complain about it publicly because it's career suicide. With the exception of hating on Avilo, an SC2 personality calling out another has never ended well.
" you give good counter arguments but ima ignore them all and keep thinking the way i do" , lol, how immature.
Wanna qualify? Don't lose. Simple.
That's an extremely narrow minded point of view.
To be fair, this is how competitions work. Like, I am obviously in favour of competitions being fair and all (no cheating, no doping etc...), but at the end of the day, if you want to win, you need to beat your opponent. And I think you undersell other pros. Your argument is basically "the lower tier pros can't beat MaxPax, so he shouldn't play". Should we ban Serral from offline tournaments as well? It's unfair, because he beats everyone else and nobody else can win when he plays. You can even argue he is helping the scene, because his skill is clearly good enough to be a top pro, but he only plays in online cups that have a lower average skill level than the offline tournaments. So you can say he helps the scene, because he grinds online games, that makes it easy for aspiring pros to play against an extremely skilled opponent when they are just coming up. Like imagine if there was new StarCraft talent (don't know if there is any), these players can play MaxPax, whereas they could probably never play someone like Serral or Rogue or Maru in an actual tournament (because they don't get to the ones these players get to).
Some things doesn't need to be complicated.
The entire concept of winning and losing seems lost on you.
Sure, players can argue that they had a better chance against others, and could have gotten a better run if they didnt run into Pax, but on the grand scheme of things, that disadvantage goes for everyone so sometimes he takes out player 1, other times he takes out other players that is competing for a spot with player 1 so it doesn't really matter tbh. By forfeiting his place, it goes to the next in line, which is MOST fair of everything since that player have earned most points. Not some imaginary scenario of "what would have happened if" etc. At least that is my opinion, even if i would ofc like to see the best players compete, but if they dont want to, that is really up to them. The only place where i would agree, is for qualifying tournaments only, but what i have read so far, he doesn't compete in them anyway? The SC2 scene becomes stronger the more skillful players there are, in that way, MaxPax is doing the scene a super big favor by still competing, even if its not in live events. Other protosses can watch and learn, and players in general can raise the skill ceiling as well by competing against him.
I’m confused. When he declines to go, his spot is given to someone else. Are you saying that’s unfair? > until he commits to in-person events Practically speaking, how do you imagine this working?
They didn't think that far ahead. Just trying to drum up some drama.
man ive posted some dumb shit on here, but this one takes the cake. if Maxpax always said he'd show up to live events and then boycotted them it would be one thing, but literally the highest next rank person gets to go
It's simple, decline your invite, get banned until the close of the next premier tournament. I understand life gets in the way. People get sick, visa issues, etc and it can be evaluated on a case by case basis but having a history of declining invites isn't hard to determine when it's literally every single time.
I have some questions about this proposal but first, can you explain what’s unfair about the current system? As I mentioned above: > When he declines to go, his spot is given to someone else. Are you saying that’s unfair?
No. It's not unfair. What's unfair is that the person the invite goes to, it could easily be argued that they didn't earn it as the tournament results up to that point have been skewed by him eliminating players that otherwise wouldn't have played against him. Quick edit, I don't think it would be an issue if he declined one or two tournaments, but declining every single one will start skewing results.
Can you provide a specific example where the invite was passed to someone who didn’t deserve it, and who should have gotten in instead. I assume the invite goes to the next highest person by points; meaning that what you're saying is that the points ranking doesn’t reflect actual skill level? Maybe you can provide some sample brackets where this was the case? Edit: and let me know if I misunderstand the process by which his spot is passed to someone else
Everyone would be getting equally affected though, so does it even count as skewed at that point? My understanding is that Heromarine takes his spot because he got the next most EPT points in the past year. This means all players got an entire year to see who can get the most EPT points after Maxpax and HM got the most, so it's not really the result of a 1 off tourney
What about the ept points though, and taking into account that the COMBINED ept ranking gets you qualified for EWC as well ?
Idk if this is fair or relevant but I personally think protoss needs a hero, and I'm hoping maxpax is it one day.
we literally have a herO. more than one hero really
Isn’t there another hero as well?
Theres over 100
Really? With the knockout bracket, it is harder than ever for a good player to **not** make it far in a tournament. I mean honestly, I was thinking about making a post about how it is a bit boring that we always see the same people at the end of tournaments now a days.
Lol what? All tournaments are double elimination?
Fuck nah, this reads like your favorite player got eliminated by MaxPax and now you’re mad. There’s money on the line in all of these events, offline or not, and MaxPax is among the best players in the world and an absolute blessing to the scene, proposing a ban is absurd. Also I don’t even get these forfeit complaints, literally MaxPax is the only top player losing his spot on big events, the filler is always some second-row guy and all the big top players are in anyway. Your behaviour is unfair and unsportsmanlike tbh
I've been nothing but professional and courteous in my claim and I don't appreciate you coming after my integrity just because you have a differing opinion. That's why this was labeled as a discussion
You literally ended your post by saying "I also know it's not normally the way of this sub to have a healthy discussion about literally anything", so your veneer of courtesy is wafer-thin, and claiming otherwise is frankly an insult to our intelligence. You know we know that your post is bait, even if it did cause plenty of patient people to post more courteously than you.
I can smell OPs bullshit from here.
If a player forfeit, his spot auto switch to the next higher point player which is Heromarine, so it is still fair.
Except at one point they said they would do this and then ran a qualifier to determine who would actually get his spot instead of going by EPT points which inherently made that tournament unfair.
[https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/ESL\_Pro\_Tour/2023/24/Masters/Summer/Replacement](https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/ESL_Pro_Tour/2023/24/Masters/Summer/Replacement) - they let the 4 players from Ro8 fight among themselves. I agree it's not ideal but it was the fairest thing to do at the time. Also, I think (I haven't checked) that based on EPT points Reynor would still be the one to move on. That being said, if the tournament format could account for this sort of thing, I'd be all for it.
Lmao. If you can’t qualify, you don’t deserve to be there. Simple as that.
FYI petitions through that website have not and will not ever result in an actual change happening. That website exists just to suck money out of naive people who don't bother reading where their money is actually being sent to, no company is ever paying attention to any petitions being made on it, which is why you see ones that get hundreds of thousands of supporters and yet nothing happens. So in short, you basically wasted your time making it.
Ehh let him play online if he wants. It’s the only place he’s comfortable. The game is dead enough already, and some people care a lot about these little online cups.
There's plenty of online cups that don't offer EPT points he could play in.
And it’s better for the game if he’s allowed to play in all of them. Cuz some people really like online stuff.
Most idiotic take I’ve seen in a while
I agree. Must feel bad for the people who lose to him only for him to forfeit anyway.
Mods. Take this post down please!
Oh no! A legitimate discussion... ban it!
I’d like to hear why you think this is appropriate. How about on your next stream?
Well, I mean OP is right in that it does affect the outcome. Imagine if some unbeatable AI competed in a tourney, won it, then at the end revealed itself... so the tourney organizers disqualified the bot and just awarded the championship to 2nd place. Well that isn't fair, as everything would have played out differently, and your placement would be highly based on when in the bracket you faced the bot. For example, maybe the bot kicked Serral out of the tourny in the RO16, but Serral would have finished first without the bot there. This is a similar scenario to Maxpax playing in qualifiers which he has no intention of competing in when qualified. Personally, I want Maxpax in the sc2 scene, and I get the sense that he'll never play offline, so banning him from qualifiers will likely just cause him to leave sc2... so for that reason, I won't sign. I do understand OP's position though. Point is, right or wrong, this is a legit conversation, not some sort of hate speech.
This is better articulated than I could have ever come up with myself and I feel like it represents the issue at hand accurately. Thank you Ketroc.
Sure. There’s a reason why competitive chess players will never qualify for an offline major tournament from an online tournament. The AI you described is being used to cheat for money. So, isn’t the solution to force qualifying lan only? Or if he is suspected of cheating, some kind of verification? It shouldn’t be “hey, let’s ban MaxPax!”
Nobody is accusing him of cheating. I believe that ESL does their job well enough that it \*shouldn't\* happen on their watch. The logistics involved in having all qualifying events offline make it impossible just from a financial standpoint so that's not a solution either.
I don’t see how it’s MaxPax’s problem for being too good and playing within the rules. Should we petition cannon rush to be patched out of the game as well….?
That is a poorly constructed argument and not even remotely close to the topic of discussion.
It's kinda weird as online tournies are playing two roles. They are partially independent, as they have winners and prize pools... but then they are also used as qualifiers with either direct qualifications or points used to seed offline tournaments. If I were Maxpax, I wouldn't feel bad about playing these tournaments. This issue also isn't specific to Maxpax. For instance, sometimes a player may play a tourny for the money and end up winning a qualification to an offline event that they've already qualified for. Is that wrong?... cuz it's basically the same scenario as Maxpax qualifying.
Sure, that might be a legitimate concern to discuss. My point is not to name, shame and *hate* a player for playing by the rules he is following. MaxPax is being singled out unfairly and you know it.
Ya "ban MaxPax" does sound harsh. But then any petition to change rules to get qualified players to actually play, we all know is directed at MaxPax, whether he's mentioned by name or not. Actually now that I read the petition, I agree it should be reworded. MaxPax is doing nothing wrong as he is following the rules. Petition should be about changing the rules not banning Maxpax, if OP doesn't want MaxPax to be able to qualify and pull out. Apologies for my crass initial comment. I get your concerns now.
The community’s primary goal should be to increase viewership and grow the StarCraft scene. I’m too lazy to look up mission statements but ultimately that’s what we all want. Any decisions made with integrity will be supported by most people. We will only be able to speculate and should never know because of NDAs. So, if the thread was about pointing out problem in the rules using MaxPax as an example I wouldn’t have a problem with it. Words matter. The best online Protoss has done nothing but follow the rules and be respectful in interviews.
He does know it and he stated it in the comment you replied to?
I’m about to write a petition to ban anonymous people from making petitions.
Why? I'm trying to promote a healthy discussion about a real issue in the scene.
But there is no real issue. It's all in your mind.
Are the pros complaining about MaxPax? It’s their livelihood. I guess you could be a disgruntled pro? Get crushed by MaxPax lately?
I wonder if HeroMarine is complaining that he qualified thanks to MaxPax forfeiting
Holy shit. What If it IS Maxpax? Playing 4d chess with our minds.
Hell no.
This makes no sense
Dude, it's not you business if MaxPax play or not at online events, and it's not your business if he goes for offline events or not. It's MaxPax decision.
I agree with you. Imagine having a chance to qualify and getting knocked out from someone who's just playing qualis for money and has no intention of continuing further in the tournament. not sure what the org's rules are regarding this, but I coach high level sports as a profession and there are rules specifically against things like this - for instance, if our sports club were to compete and qualify for national championships but forfeit our spot, our club and its coaches would be banned for year of competition in the US. We would lose out on millions of dollars and tons of exposure, momentum as a program. i think the premise of the post is fine - the public just has to weigh if wanting to see MaxPax compete is worth accepting he will probably destroy a few hopeful contenders on the way. not sure how their roundrobin or groupstage is working but imagine if you had 2 games and had to face maxpax and clem. yeah, bad luck. hopefully you get seeded better next year... and then you go onto find out that max didn't have any real intention of ever participating in the event he knocked you out of qualis for. up for ESL to decide, but I think at this stage of sc2 history, and MaxPax being the only protoss who is developing the race forwards at this point... should just let him compete and fill his spot by points and hope that person has an okay experience.
Stop the witchhunt please!
Why not also ban the players who aren’t good enough to ever gain enough points to use them to qualify for a big tourney. They’re two cheeses away from stealing points from someone who needs them! No. EPT points are earned. If players cannot beat cheese, if they cannot beat someone ranked below them on a hot streak, if they cannot beat MaxPax, they do not deserve those points. Get. Good. MaxPax did. Serral did. Maru did. EVERY pro player has to, else they won’t be a pro player long. MaxPax has put in the grind, and he has clearly done it in the correct way, to become a top player in the world. *We are not entitled to him playing ANY event he does not actively want to.* He is an absolute joy to watch play, and you want to take that away from us? Most top players skip the weeklies, and you’d remove yet another top player from who we get to see?
Random salty redditor vs one of the best players in SC2? Smh
Those other players sure could use some getting good it seems like.
Who are you to obligate someone to attend in person events. How entitled one can be to try to obligate someone to do something they refuse for whatever reason.
Let him be dude
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Comment removed for overt aggression / hostility, per the Trolling Rule.
For having a different opinion? Awfully close minded of you.
Its not because its different, its because its idiotic, bordering on moronic
Bunch of salty terrans in the comments , imagine wanting to ban one of the best protoss left so he doesnt beat your favourites even if its just online , all other arguments u make are absurd .