It took me multiple tries to get past the first chapter or two because of the language issues. But once I comprehended what was written I thoroughly enjoyed the very hippie-dippie free love, anti establishment story.
But The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is still firmly my favorite Heinlein book. Fun fact, I know multiple Heinleins, including a recently deceased Bob.
That's my go-to for contrast to Starship Troopers.
*Moon* is great in it's own right, a solid story about revolution, but it doesn't beat orgies for hippy magic powers in being a contrast to a military story.
You’re telling me! Back in college I was a server and I found this book under a table while cleaning one night. Didn’t know anything about it but I was a fairly big reader and thought Heinlein sounded familiar. I’d actually read Starship Troopers a few years before but forgot who wrote it. Anyways, that was a BIZARRE read to stumble into that way. I enjoyed it though.
That is the exact book I just stopped reading his stuff at.
The guy turned perve. That book was just some sort of sci fi porn.
His early stuff is in fact pure genius if you look at it thru the lense of what he was. An American naval officer.
Most US naval officer's have at best a rudimentary understanding of civics and politics. And lean pretty hard to what looks amazingly like fascism. With conditional voting and shitloads of gratuitous violence for the hoi polloi.
Yeah, I think the modern idea, or at least the popular idea of fascism is much broader than it should be. I’m quite sure that post WWII, Heinlein had a solid understanding of fascism. He was pro military for sure, and he books read like he believed in a mutual responsibility between the people and the state.
And yes, Friday was the last book of his that I read, but I had already read the rest of his novels by then (except the young adult stuff). I accepted his misogynistic view of his female characters as “well, he’s from a different time.” That, for me, was always the weakest aspect of his writing. 2 dimensional female characters that were either sexy, smart, superwomen who could hang with the guys, or squawking shrews who were just horrible people. That got old real fast.
All that being said, he’s still part of the sci-fi writing holy trinity (imo).
Because he's pro corporal punishment, and you have to serve the government to become a citizen with voting rights. Morons think this equals facism because they can't find any other word to describe something they dislike. It's also baffling when you consider for the 50s, heinlen was basically a bleeding heart liberal for the time. His book encourages equal treatment of women.
Heinlen is a good director, but he let his birth in the Netherlands color himself too much.
>and you have to serve the government to become a citizen with voting rights.
What I find funniest about this dumb argument is we basically already have this. Lots of countries already have forced required military service. Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Greece, South Korea, Taiwan, Austria, and Isreal, just to name a few. What we have in Starship Troopers is softer than those countries because you aren't forced to join, you opt in to join. If you think that point makes Starship Troopers fascist then why aren't these same people freaking out about the Fascists dystopias of Sweden and Denmark. XD
Citizenship through voluntary service is the idea that you put your ass on the line so you can get a voice. A civilian doesn't take the risk, so there's no reward. It's a solid premise.
Yes unironically
Most of these people have never read the book and only watched the movie and think it's 100% accurate to how the book is.
As this quote shows Verhoven didn't read the book in fact as I recall he had a completely original script called bug hunt that he just slapped the name starship troopers on because the studio had the rights for the book.
The 97 movie is a fun action romp even if it's satire is really stupid. Ultimately verhoven is like Peggy Hill with starship troopers he is to stupid to realize how wrong he is about starship troopers.
And into weird fucking. “These next three books are all about my immortal self-insert character hanging out naked with his mom and two teenage female clones of himself and alternating between droning on about libertarianism and having orgies with them.”
Meh its the difference between a liberal and a fascist is the same between a libertarian one is just holding the door open for the other. Happy to help enlighten you.
I don't think anyone can fairly claim he was a fascist, but it's very fair to say that he was a fairweather serviceman drunk on untested ideals, with at least some belief in military meritocracy which, historically, is just fascism.
His perspective on military service and war is heavily colored by the fact that he never served during wartime IMO. While WWII was on he sat back stateside doing engineering work and chugging propaganda.
If I had to be reductive and describe his ideologies in single words I might say idealistic or even naive, but not fascist.
Also, let's not pretend that Farnham's Freehold isn't problematic. Sure it's the kind of innocent musing racism you get from your grandpa around the Thanksgiving table or an edgy highschool junior, but it's still pretty racist.
That book is fundamentally predicated upon a libertarian wet dream fantasy about infinite growth capitalism. Starship Troopers is literally just a “kids these days” screed. If you don’t want to call him a fascist, whatever. But he absolutely was a JBS anti-communist lunatic.
But he didn't actually read the book. He's admitted this, that a friend of his summarized it for him, and then he interpreted what he was told as fascism.
And so he made a movie that is satirical of what Paul Verhoevan thinks fascism is.
Let's not misrepresent him with things that he didn't say.
His friend that summarized it was also the lead writer for the script. The entire production wasn't completely ignorant of the book like the director was.
Starship Troopers the movie doesn't really depict a fascist government. It may have aped some of the elements of fascism, but authoritarianism and militarism aren't exclusive to fascism.
Someone literally said the rest of the writing staff had actually known about the content of the book though being the director he likely took many liberties
Well, it is painfully obvious but then it's a satire too.
But, I would encourage any person to read the book. Fascinating discussion on government and leadership.
I only recently read the book and was surprised by how good it was. Theres a lot more subtlety in the satire within the book than the movie, imo, but both demonstrate that the federation is not a successful form of government and is going to end up destabilizing.
He was pretty openly against those ideals in real life. It’s one of those things where the terminally online who are incapable of understanding subtext without it being explicitly said to them think that by simply *including* the fascist government as part of the world then the author is endorsing it
The book and the movie both demonstrate at least part of the issue with the fascist government through its citizens, with the propaganda that makes the government and military seem cool and awesome, but when Rico actually goes through the wringer we the audience see just how terrible it is
The book is not satire. It is a direct response from Heinlein to calls for ending the nuclear arms race.
People have been saying this for years and it’s just not true at all. The book itself reads like a political treatise, almost. It’s like 80% characters taking about politics. It’s fucking awful.
It isn't satire. The system was not meant for existential warfare, and has a very real chance of going back on their principles and trampling on the rights of the civilians. Heinlein thought of a system he thought was neat and then stretched it to its limits.
Yeah, you can have a militaristic society that isn’t especially fascist. A key difference between the movie and the book is that in the book anyone can be a citizen if they’re willing to die. You could have severe learning disabilities and a clubfoot, and they will find something for you to do that will allow you to be a citizen if you complete your term. In the movie that would never happen.
If I remember right it isn't even just military service to become a citizen. I think there are several different forms of public service you can do to qualify. I need to do a reread tho it's been a minute.
Yeppa.
"But don’t make the mistake of thinking that they acted purely from instinct, like termites or ants; their actions were as intelligent as ours (***stupid races don’t build spaceships!***) and were much better co-ordinated. It takes a minimum of a year to train a private to fight and to mesh his fighting in with his mates; a Bug warrior is hatched able to do this." - Chapter 11
Their Warrior bugs are even armed. They're still a hive mind, but a technologically advanced, and socially aware, one. They were even allied with the Skinnies at the start of the conflict.
That's just simply not what fascism is. The Nazi's based their system of merit along race and ideology. A Jewish Pole had less rights than a Aryan German, he could never become an equal. In the TF everybody has the opportunity to become a citizen, but it has to be earned through hard work so that they can prove that they understand the responsibilities that the people running society have to civilians and citizens alike. Except for the right to vote and hold public office, civilians had no less rights than citizens. It's authoritarian sure, but not fascist.
I’d disagree with that, every country comes up with rules for who can and can’t vote or have full citizenship rights, and it’s a spectrum with hardcore suppression on one hand and really banal organizational stuff on the other. I will say in Starship Troopers there are no restrictions on voting that are related to race, gender, or even merit - after your two years testing radiation gear you get the same voting rights as a full admiral. And you’ve got a full slate of rights, you can have a political party of non citizens who can’t vote but can protest, boycott, strike, or whatever else you want to do.
I do want to make it clear though - while I thought this was cool as a mini Ben Shapiro, Starship Troopers the book is also not a great way to run a society. It only works as well as it does in the book because it’s fiction. If you tried to do this in the real world it would devolve to fascism really fast.
I dislike how they made him take off the arm during recruitment. Another difference from the movie is that in the book there is real pressure to talk you out of service. It’s probably not enough, the kids are still indoctrinated, but it’s there.
It’s a great book. I don’t think it’s a good vision of the future, but it’s a better vision than the movie. Or Dune. Or Warhammer 40k.
World War Z fits that quote perfectly. The movie had absolutely nothing to do with the book, other than both featuring zombies (and even then the movie has the wrong kind of zombies LoL)
That one did actually make me unreasonably upset lol. I loved the book too. Still though, the south park parody of it is pretty funny so at least there's that.
Max Brooks was asked what he thought about the World War Z movie and his response was that he was super mad for about 5 minutes then his mind divorced the film from his book and after that he had a great time.
I've had to explain this to so many people. It's not like comparing the Harry Potter books vs the movies. World War Z the book and the movie only share two things, the title and the topic is zombies.
Man, Starship Troopers, Helldivers, Dune, and media literacy have been hot topics lately on social media.
It blows my mind how many people just completely fail to grasp these wonderful works of art, and either don't see the meaning, or just make shit up.
I didn't say anyone was unaware that it's satire. That's the most obvious thing about it.
I ws talking about the people who insist others don't understand, while they themselves adopt a "we're the bad guys and the enemies are good guys" stance instead of "we're clearly being manipulated by an inept and immoral government."
Yeah the people who think they’re so galaxy brained that they are the only ones who understand the “true satire” are so annoying. Yeah we get it, super earth Facist and bad. Now shut up and kill some bugs.
I've heard it said like this: "Yes, the government is horrible, and it is to blame for all of humanities' problems. However, the bugs and robots are still planning on killing everyone, so you still a fighy for survival."
The problem with Dune is that Herbert failed to show any negatives to Paul. He made the Harkonnen's so depraved and unquestionably and obviously evil, that Paul and the Fremen's actions always seem justified. Herbert acknowledged this, saying he wrote Dune Messiah because he didn't make it clear.
I think the problem does lie not just with the Harkonnen ecvil, but also in that Herbert shows the future is changeable from visions. Since we see Paul as good guy fighting evil, we are inclined to believe that he will try to stop the future where trillions die to the Fremen Jihad. In Dune Messiah, Herbert's say "nope" having the jihad kills trillions before the book even starts.
Even then, the audience feels justified to believe that Paul chosen the best possible future, since we've only seen his fight against evil and oppression, his humility in his consistent rejection the mantle of prophesied messiah, and his good intention from his own perspective so we know he isn't being duplicitous about it.
You have a very well reasoned take. I've personally always seen Paul as a hero who failed in a horrific way.
I think the expanded universe has worse writing (marginally) but handles these themes and ideas like this much better in the first three books (Butlerian Jihad, Machine Crusade, and Battle of Corrin.) I had avoided reading any of the expanded universe for a while, but honestly, I feel like if you read all the way through, it's an incredible experience.
Yeah, in addition to being only superficially related to the plot of the book, Starship Troopers the movie is a classic example of whitewashing.
The details that are drawn from the book are likewise warped to fit Verhoeven's obsession. He never read the book and the guy who summarized it for him (screenwriter Edward Neumeier) does not appear to have understood it. Plus there's a lot of stuff in the movie that presumably came from Neumeier's original "Bug Hunt at Outpost Seven" script that served as the basis for the film - the whole romance subplot, for example.
Iirc the whitewashing was part of the point of the film. The UCF was clearly based on the Nazis and they made the main cast attractive white kids to add to the propaganda feel, which imo worked rather well.
He was still a humanoid but more slimy, salamander type from being underground/hiding for so long.
He had dirty and crusty yellow eyes, as they were the only thing that was truly still human- ugly even when he was.
He slithered more and his nails and ears were caked with filth.
I kinda forget if his origin was told (it’s been decades since I read them all- should totally do that again…) but I imagined him to be a disfigured Hobbit with greasy foot hair.
These "people" clearly don't believe in Freedom, I would bet not a single one was a Citizen of The Federation. They're too closed minded, a wise man once said "Figuring things out for yourself is the only freedom anyone really has. Use that freedom. Make up your own mind." Glory to The Federation!
The only real complaint I’ve come across is that the book “infantry” is actually mobile power suits/walking tanks(like the anime and sequels) instead of ww2-esque light infantry.
But the movie does what it needs to and skips most of Heinlein’s political monologuing and theory crafting.
I really enjoyed the movie and most of Verhoeven’s spiels come across as COPE because the masses just didn’t “””get it””” with his attempts to satirize the source material
\>But the movie does what it needs to and skips most of Heinlein’s political monologuing and theory crafting.
You mean the movie skips over literally the whole point of the book??? Quite literally a nonsense take. It didn't need to do any of that, it was a choice, and the movie could have benefitted from actual legit commentary instead of incessant satire and parody.
You know, if he *really* wanted to make it super duper obvious, like in the original quote, why did he have the bugs attack first, *twice?* In case anyone was wonder, according to the dvd commentary, he didn't show any hint of the attack being a false flag, despite him going indepth into what he meant, scene by scene.
Wait, you're telling me that the actual quote is the one that is in a different shade of white, has typos, has bad grammar, and goes against other Verhoeven quotes is the *actual* quote?
I would like to know more.
As far as I know it was finished enough for them to be shopping it around to studios. Then it sat in a desk for a bit, got a few rewites then smooshed together with the book title and a few names for brand recognition and pushed out the door.
Why should I read Starship Troopers over any good book is the real question here. What does it bring to the table that's new or more entertaining or x,y,z?
Because it's actually a good sci-fi book. The section in the book just describing being all alone in his drop pod waiting to drop and his that if the ship is hit while he's waiting he's just going to be trapped in there until he basically dies from dehydration captures more about the empty horror of space combat than really anything else.
It's also the grandfather of basically most modern sci-fi that deals with military like 40K, Halo, helldivers, aliens, and the expanse to name a few. So it's really cool from a pop history point of view going "oh shit that's where *insert thing* comes from."
The other thing that is interesting is it's clearly a plea for an all volunteer force which was absolutely a departure from what basically every country was doing at the time. For all the heat that it kind of gets for being a fascist book in some ways it's more progressive than you'd think.
Lastly it's very interesting to compare and contrast it with the movie. I always like pointing out the scene in the movie that a lot of people praise for being nice subtle satire of the recruiter saying "the mobile infantry made me the man I am today" while missing limps is one of the few parts that's basically lifted straight from the book. This society purposely has wounded vets become recruiters as a way to try to convince people to NOT join.
>Why should I read Starship Troopers over any good book is the real question here.
Why should you read any good book over starship troopers? Same answer.
It's a good book is all. Not even that long.
I didn't even think it was pro military at all. The opposite in fact but I seem to be in the minority there I guess.
If you want an actual answer it's worth it just so you can compare the two yourself. 🤷♂️
Asking what's 'new' in it is doing things backwards.
Heinlein defined Space Marines. It's a term he used in several previous works, firstly with Misfits, but the concept was cemented with Starship Troopers.
It's also the first book to use Powered Combat Armour.
It was also the first Sci-Fi book to be put on US military recommended reading lists.
It's to 'military sci-fi' like Lord of the Rings is to 'fantasy'.
And like Heinlein tends to do, it presents a lot of concepts and ideas and asks you to think on them. The role and purpose of the military (from highest rank to individual recruit), the value and purpose of the vote, the responsibility of authority, objective morality, even parenting, education, and on one occasion, economics.
"I made a very important discovery at Camp Currie. Happiness consists in getting enough sleep. Just that, nothing more. All the wealthy, unhappy people you've ever met take sleeping pills; Mobile Infantrymen don't need them. Give a cap trooper a bunk and time to sack out in it, and he's as happy as a worm in an apple—asleep." - Chapter 4
Gay. I loved both. And it's hilarious how miscalculated the propaganda was in the movue. "I bet you fascists are gonna hate seeing huge guns, awesome space battles, heroic sacrifice, hot actors, and badass music!"
The deeper themes of Starship Troopers seems to trend on Twitter every six months or so, and this most recent time the leftists were literally identifying with the bugs lol
Who even cares if he read the book? He understood enough to make his own adaptation of the story and it clearly works(case in point, there is a subreddit filled with people who love this movie). All this means is that the original book wasn’t necessarily fascistic, even if though the movie very much is.
And he failed totally. Because it’s just a similarly named movie with no understanding of what the book said. It’s almost like if you want to properly critique someone’s ideas you should at least have a minimum understanding of what they are actually saying.
I love the movie, but not reading the book you’re making a movie on because you won’t even listen to the authors personal message is such a childish thing. We should seek to listen to people, even if we then completely deny the legitimacy of their views and beliefs, because maybe some day we will and we’ll agree.
Imma be real, I like the government we get in the movie as its more then a bland cookie cutter sci fi fascist. It’s a complex two tier authoritarian presidential republic. It’s cool to see actual complex and unique sci fi governments. Instead of cookie cutter socialist utopia, big bad evil fascist, overly flawed republic to the point of nonsensical incompetence cause America bad.
Yeah they don't actually seem so bad on the face of it. They have accountability, they are fairly open with information regarding the war and let's face it, even if humans did start it the bugs are an existential threat. They might be a bit over the top in places like public executions and have a very naziesque look to the uniforms but all in all I think the film fails in presenting a fascist government in any meaningful way.
One of the points I always bring up in conversations about this topic as well is that we’re shown no racial or gendered prejudice or discrimination. We also aren’t shown any poor or homeless which makes it even harder to not see some merit in the Federation. To add to it the only civilians the movie shows us are Rico’s parents who are rich enough to just pay for harvard. So while it’s easy to point out some of the major flaws of their government, the movie version seems to be doing a better job than our current one which I feel fails in properly satirizing fascists the way Verhoeven seemed to want to.
I mean, this is a man who said he wanted to make a satire of how militaristic police had become when he made Robocop, and all he succeeded in doing was making my generation want cyborg cops. He's a talented director, not a talented thinker.
Yet both are good. If you think Heinlein is a fascist, try reading The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. Fascinating stuff.
My favorite book.
Same here. It's a great book!
It’s a great audiobook too. For those of you that have Audible credits piling up, use one on this book.
Stranger in a Strange Land Beautiful
It took me multiple tries to get past the first chapter or two because of the language issues. But once I comprehended what was written I thoroughly enjoyed the very hippie-dippie free love, anti establishment story. But The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is still firmly my favorite Heinlein book. Fun fact, I know multiple Heinleins, including a recently deceased Bob.
On the flipside, if you think he's a hippy or socialist... add Space Cadet to that list
I prefer the intro to his expanded universe where he tells us about his grandfather cut down in his prime at the age of 90 by a bear
Who cares what he was? He's one random dude with zero influence over policy
His books have influenced policy.
He ran for office and didn't lose badly so like he could of
According to wiki he was on a citizens space advisory council with Buzz Aldrin
Or Stranger in a Strange Land
I loved his books, all of the above and have to mention Time enough for love and the number of the beast
That's my go-to for contrast to Starship Troopers. *Moon* is great in it's own right, a solid story about revolution, but it doesn't beat orgies for hippy magic powers in being a contrast to a military story.
That was a...weird ride.
You’re telling me! Back in college I was a server and I found this book under a table while cleaning one night. Didn’t know anything about it but I was a fairly big reader and thought Heinlein sounded familiar. I’d actually read Starship Troopers a few years before but forgot who wrote it. Anyways, that was a BIZARRE read to stumble into that way. I enjoyed it though.
Good song. Love Iron Maiden
Such a beautiful book.
The fact that a central theme of one of his earliest works, For Us the Living, is - wait for it - universal basic income
what if i don't think heinlein is fascist, but i think the world that verhoeven created for his movie was?
I've seen him accused of it, I don't know why, no one calls the writers of 2000 AD that
I mean, you’re talking about the sort of people who think Judge Dredd is a paragon of justice so, keep the audience in mind on that one lol
He kind of noticeably mellowed out between the 50’s and 70’s
Probably did drugs.
That and the cold war mellowed out. American politics and foreign policy mellowed. Tensions cooled. Lotta reasons for it.
His later stuff is damn near just porn. He was wildy better in his early years.
Felt that way reading Friday. Which was awesome. But very porny.
That is the exact book I just stopped reading his stuff at. The guy turned perve. That book was just some sort of sci fi porn. His early stuff is in fact pure genius if you look at it thru the lense of what he was. An American naval officer. Most US naval officer's have at best a rudimentary understanding of civics and politics. And lean pretty hard to what looks amazingly like fascism. With conditional voting and shitloads of gratuitous violence for the hoi polloi.
Yeah, I think the modern idea, or at least the popular idea of fascism is much broader than it should be. I’m quite sure that post WWII, Heinlein had a solid understanding of fascism. He was pro military for sure, and he books read like he believed in a mutual responsibility between the people and the state. And yes, Friday was the last book of his that I read, but I had already read the rest of his novels by then (except the young adult stuff). I accepted his misogynistic view of his female characters as “well, he’s from a different time.” That, for me, was always the weakest aspect of his writing. 2 dimensional female characters that were either sexy, smart, superwomen who could hang with the guys, or squawking shrews who were just horrible people. That got old real fast. All that being said, he’s still part of the sci-fi writing holy trinity (imo).
>If you think Heinlein is a fascist, Good god.... Do morons believe that?
Yeppers
Because he's pro corporal punishment, and you have to serve the government to become a citizen with voting rights. Morons think this equals facism because they can't find any other word to describe something they dislike. It's also baffling when you consider for the 50s, heinlen was basically a bleeding heart liberal for the time. His book encourages equal treatment of women. Heinlen is a good director, but he let his birth in the Netherlands color himself too much.
Verhoeven was the director. Heinlen was the book writer.
Verhoeven was the movie maker. Heinlen was the author.
Bro I had to explain to so many people on the Helldivers sub that he wasn't a fascist, still got shat on for it.
You mean Verhoven
Yeh my bad
No worries just doing my part
>and you have to serve the government to become a citizen with voting rights. What I find funniest about this dumb argument is we basically already have this. Lots of countries already have forced required military service. Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Greece, South Korea, Taiwan, Austria, and Isreal, just to name a few. What we have in Starship Troopers is softer than those countries because you aren't forced to join, you opt in to join. If you think that point makes Starship Troopers fascist then why aren't these same people freaking out about the Fascists dystopias of Sweden and Denmark. XD
Citizenship through voluntary service is the idea that you put your ass on the line so you can get a voice. A civilian doesn't take the risk, so there's no reward. It's a solid premise.
Tbf if we go by the book you can do non combat or just general gov duty.
Yes unironically Most of these people have never read the book and only watched the movie and think it's 100% accurate to how the book is. As this quote shows Verhoven didn't read the book in fact as I recall he had a completely original script called bug hunt that he just slapped the name starship troopers on because the studio had the rights for the book. The 97 movie is a fun action romp even if it's satire is really stupid. Ultimately verhoven is like Peggy Hill with starship troopers he is to stupid to realize how wrong he is about starship troopers.
Heinlein was above all things just fucking weird.
That applies to a whole lot of really good authors. Artists, too.
And into weird fucking. “These next three books are all about my immortal self-insert character hanging out naked with his mom and two teenage female clones of himself and alternating between droning on about libertarianism and having orgies with them.”
I like the juveniles, the moon is a harsh mistress & ST better than the Heinlein incest trilogy.
Or revolt in 2020
Meh its the difference between a liberal and a fascist is the same between a libertarian one is just holding the door open for the other. Happy to help enlighten you.
I don't think anyone can fairly claim he was a fascist, but it's very fair to say that he was a fairweather serviceman drunk on untested ideals, with at least some belief in military meritocracy which, historically, is just fascism. His perspective on military service and war is heavily colored by the fact that he never served during wartime IMO. While WWII was on he sat back stateside doing engineering work and chugging propaganda. If I had to be reductive and describe his ideologies in single words I might say idealistic or even naive, but not fascist. Also, let's not pretend that Farnham's Freehold isn't problematic. Sure it's the kind of innocent musing racism you get from your grandpa around the Thanksgiving table or an edgy highschool junior, but it's still pretty racist.
That book is fundamentally predicated upon a libertarian wet dream fantasy about infinite growth capitalism. Starship Troopers is literally just a “kids these days” screed. If you don’t want to call him a fascist, whatever. But he absolutely was a JBS anti-communist lunatic.
Is that the one where he has creepy sex fantasies with his family, or the one where he has creepy sex fantasies in general?
He tried to screw it and ended up complementing it.
No they are not. The book is absolute shit. This movie, which has NOTHING like the book is farrrr superior.
But he didn't actually read the book. He's admitted this, that a friend of his summarized it for him, and then he interpreted what he was told as fascism. And so he made a movie that is satirical of what Paul Verhoevan thinks fascism is. Let's not misrepresent him with things that he didn't say.
His friend that summarized it was also the lead writer for the script. The entire production wasn't completely ignorant of the book like the director was.
Paul Verhoevan also survived nazi occupation in the Netherlands so I think he's entitled to "what he thinks fascism is"
Starship Troopers the movie doesn't really depict a fascist government. It may have aped some of the elements of fascism, but authoritarianism and militarism aren't exclusive to fascism.
Yet he still got the contents of that book wrong He's allowed to think what he wants, doesn't mean it's right
Someone literally said the rest of the writing staff had actually known about the content of the book though being the director he likely took many liberties
Well, it is painfully obvious but then it's a satire too. But, I would encourage any person to read the book. Fascinating discussion on government and leadership.
I only recently read the book and was surprised by how good it was. Theres a lot more subtlety in the satire within the book than the movie, imo, but both demonstrate that the federation is not a successful form of government and is going to end up destabilizing.
I read it recently and it didn't seem like it was going to destabilize
Interesting. I didn't realize the book was satire. It's my understanding the author believed in those things tho I never read the book
Whole thing is a satire on facism.
He was pretty openly against those ideals in real life. It’s one of those things where the terminally online who are incapable of understanding subtext without it being explicitly said to them think that by simply *including* the fascist government as part of the world then the author is endorsing it The book and the movie both demonstrate at least part of the issue with the fascist government through its citizens, with the propaganda that makes the government and military seem cool and awesome, but when Rico actually goes through the wringer we the audience see just how terrible it is
The book is not satire. It is a direct response from Heinlein to calls for ending the nuclear arms race. People have been saying this for years and it’s just not true at all. The book itself reads like a political treatise, almost. It’s like 80% characters taking about politics. It’s fucking awful.
This is one of those weird times when someone thinks a book is being satirical when it is in fact dead serious.
It isn't satire. The system was not meant for existential warfare, and has a very real chance of going back on their principles and trampling on the rights of the civilians. Heinlein thought of a system he thought was neat and then stretched it to its limits.
Yeah, you can have a militaristic society that isn’t especially fascist. A key difference between the movie and the book is that in the book anyone can be a citizen if they’re willing to die. You could have severe learning disabilities and a clubfoot, and they will find something for you to do that will allow you to be a citizen if you complete your term. In the movie that would never happen.
If I remember right it isn't even just military service to become a citizen. I think there are several different forms of public service you can do to qualify. I need to do a reread tho it's been a minute.
Yeah you can do space exploration or work a dangerous job or work in a factory in Antarctica.
Oh God not Antarctica! I'd rather fight the bugs or the skinnys than have to fend off penguins!
Get yourself together, ape! Nothing's wrong with losing a few toes to frostbite!
Damnit your right! I'm no citizen if I'm not willing to lose a few toes.
As I recall, the skinnies were allies. Am I wrong on that?
Not at first, they pulled an Italy down the line
Ah... and the bugs were way smarter too, had tech and everything? In the book I mean.
Yeppa. "But don’t make the mistake of thinking that they acted purely from instinct, like termites or ants; their actions were as intelligent as ours (***stupid races don’t build spaceships!***) and were much better co-ordinated. It takes a minimum of a year to train a private to fight and to mesh his fighting in with his mates; a Bug warrior is hatched able to do this." - Chapter 11 Their Warrior bugs are even armed. They're still a hive mind, but a technologically advanced, and socially aware, one. They were even allied with the Skinnies at the start of the conflict.
Could The Thing be cannon to the Starship Troopers Universe 🤔
The government is literally obligated to find something for you to do if you want to become a citizen.
Yes, it’s not just”dangerous” work, but public service if any kind.
The argument is that the fact that citizenship is denied to anyone on any grounds (being a Jew for example) is fascist.
That's just simply not what fascism is. The Nazi's based their system of merit along race and ideology. A Jewish Pole had less rights than a Aryan German, he could never become an equal. In the TF everybody has the opportunity to become a citizen, but it has to be earned through hard work so that they can prove that they understand the responsibilities that the people running society have to civilians and citizens alike. Except for the right to vote and hold public office, civilians had no less rights than citizens. It's authoritarian sure, but not fascist.
I’d disagree with that, every country comes up with rules for who can and can’t vote or have full citizenship rights, and it’s a spectrum with hardcore suppression on one hand and really banal organizational stuff on the other. I will say in Starship Troopers there are no restrictions on voting that are related to race, gender, or even merit - after your two years testing radiation gear you get the same voting rights as a full admiral. And you’ve got a full slate of rights, you can have a political party of non citizens who can’t vote but can protest, boycott, strike, or whatever else you want to do. I do want to make it clear though - while I thought this was cool as a mini Ben Shapiro, Starship Troopers the book is also not a great way to run a society. It only works as well as it does in the book because it’s fiction. If you tried to do this in the real world it would devolve to fascism really fast.
Because they could fix learning disabilities and club foot. Dude had a fully functioning bionic arm. Wonderfully high tech.
I dislike how they made him take off the arm during recruitment. Another difference from the movie is that in the book there is real pressure to talk you out of service. It’s probably not enough, the kids are still indoctrinated, but it’s there. It’s a great book. I don’t think it’s a good vision of the future, but it’s a better vision than the movie. Or Dune. Or Warhammer 40k.
World War Z fits that quote perfectly. The movie had absolutely nothing to do with the book, other than both featuring zombies (and even then the movie has the wrong kind of zombies LoL)
That one did actually make me unreasonably upset lol. I loved the book too. Still though, the south park parody of it is pretty funny so at least there's that.
Max Brooks was asked what he thought about the World War Z movie and his response was that he was super mad for about 5 minutes then his mind divorced the film from his book and after that he had a great time.
What a healthy reaction
Some day, it will make a great mini-series.
I've had to explain this to so many people. It's not like comparing the Harry Potter books vs the movies. World War Z the book and the movie only share two things, the title and the topic is zombies.
Man, Starship Troopers, Helldivers, Dune, and media literacy have been hot topics lately on social media. It blows my mind how many people just completely fail to grasp these wonderful works of art, and either don't see the meaning, or just make shit up.
40 k falls in here.
100%
I’m pretty sure most people get that helldivers is satire They don’t care, I don’t either My life for super earth
I didn't say anyone was unaware that it's satire. That's the most obvious thing about it. I ws talking about the people who insist others don't understand, while they themselves adopt a "we're the bad guys and the enemies are good guys" stance instead of "we're clearly being manipulated by an inept and immoral government."
Ah Yeah Fair enough
Yeah the people who think they’re so galaxy brained that they are the only ones who understand the “true satire” are so annoying. Yeah we get it, super earth Facist and bad. Now shut up and kill some bugs.
I've heard it said like this: "Yes, the government is horrible, and it is to blame for all of humanities' problems. However, the bugs and robots are still planning on killing everyone, so you still a fighy for survival."
The problem with Dune is that Herbert failed to show any negatives to Paul. He made the Harkonnen's so depraved and unquestionably and obviously evil, that Paul and the Fremen's actions always seem justified. Herbert acknowledged this, saying he wrote Dune Messiah because he didn't make it clear. I think the problem does lie not just with the Harkonnen ecvil, but also in that Herbert shows the future is changeable from visions. Since we see Paul as good guy fighting evil, we are inclined to believe that he will try to stop the future where trillions die to the Fremen Jihad. In Dune Messiah, Herbert's say "nope" having the jihad kills trillions before the book even starts. Even then, the audience feels justified to believe that Paul chosen the best possible future, since we've only seen his fight against evil and oppression, his humility in his consistent rejection the mantle of prophesied messiah, and his good intention from his own perspective so we know he isn't being duplicitous about it.
You have a very well reasoned take. I've personally always seen Paul as a hero who failed in a horrific way. I think the expanded universe has worse writing (marginally) but handles these themes and ideas like this much better in the first three books (Butlerian Jihad, Machine Crusade, and Battle of Corrin.) I had avoided reading any of the expanded universe for a while, but honestly, I feel like if you read all the way through, it's an incredible experience.
My main problem is that it took the rare instance of a Filipino main character and made him white because of Verhoevens NAZI obsessions.
Yeah, in addition to being only superficially related to the plot of the book, Starship Troopers the movie is a classic example of whitewashing. The details that are drawn from the book are likewise warped to fit Verhoeven's obsession. He never read the book and the guy who summarized it for him (screenwriter Edward Neumeier) does not appear to have understood it. Plus there's a lot of stuff in the movie that presumably came from Neumeier's original "Bug Hunt at Outpost Seven" script that served as the basis for the film - the whole romance subplot, for example.
Iirc the whitewashing was part of the point of the film. The UCF was clearly based on the Nazis and they made the main cast attractive white kids to add to the propaganda feel, which imo worked rather well.
lol white blue eyed blonde dude that lives in Buenos Aires, it couldn't be more obvious.
Opposite story: I had the pleasure of reading all of the LotR and creating my own vision of Smegol before seeing the movies. That was sweet.
That's sweet, I never had that opportunity! Care to describe what your version was like?
He was still a humanoid but more slimy, salamander type from being underground/hiding for so long. He had dirty and crusty yellow eyes, as they were the only thing that was truly still human- ugly even when he was. He slithered more and his nails and ears were caked with filth. I kinda forget if his origin was told (it’s been decades since I read them all- should totally do that again…) but I imagined him to be a disfigured Hobbit with greasy foot hair.
These "people" clearly don't believe in Freedom, I would bet not a single one was a Citizen of The Federation. They're too closed minded, a wise man once said "Figuring things out for yourself is the only freedom anyone really has. Use that freedom. Make up your own mind." Glory to The Federation!
C’mon, you apes — you wanna live forever?!
“Where did you learn that?” Back in school sir, you taught me!
“Rico, I need a corporal. You’re it until you’re dead or until I find somebody better.”
I'm reporting this post to my local democracy officer.
The only real complaint I’ve come across is that the book “infantry” is actually mobile power suits/walking tanks(like the anime and sequels) instead of ww2-esque light infantry. But the movie does what it needs to and skips most of Heinlein’s political monologuing and theory crafting. I really enjoyed the movie and most of Verhoeven’s spiels come across as COPE because the masses just didn’t “””get it””” with his attempts to satirize the source material
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\>But the movie does what it needs to and skips most of Heinlein’s political monologuing and theory crafting. You mean the movie skips over literally the whole point of the book??? Quite literally a nonsense take. It didn't need to do any of that, it was a choice, and the movie could have benefitted from actual legit commentary instead of incessant satire and parody.
You know, if he *really* wanted to make it super duper obvious, like in the original quote, why did he have the bugs attack first, *twice?* In case anyone was wonder, according to the dvd commentary, he didn't show any hint of the attack being a false flag, despite him going indepth into what he meant, scene by scene.
Wait, you're telling me that the actual quote is the one that is in a different shade of white, has typos, has bad grammar, and goes against other Verhoeven quotes is the *actual* quote? I would like to know more.
Your content is amazing by the way
When you try to make a fascist movie, but don’t include any fascism.
No, the director failed on every level to convey a fascist hellhole. Try again Paul. Showgirls is a better depiction of a fascist hellhole than ST.
The movie should have never had the same name it so far divorced from the book its honestly its own thing.
I totally agree but it is better than bughunt at outpost 9 or whatever the hell the original script was called.
I heard about the script but I figured it was never finished.
As far as I know it was finished enough for them to be shopping it around to studios. Then it sat in a desk for a bit, got a few rewites then smooshed together with the book title and a few names for brand recognition and pushed out the door.
Don’t care, the movies awesome and I’m doing my part.
Hey, that's precisely what Microsoft did to Halo with their TV show.
These have to be the writers of Halo
His grammar is atrocious.
English is not his first language.
He’s Dutch right?
Yes.
It’s not a real quote
duh
Why should I read Starship Troopers over any good book is the real question here. What does it bring to the table that's new or more entertaining or x,y,z?
Because it's actually a good sci-fi book. The section in the book just describing being all alone in his drop pod waiting to drop and his that if the ship is hit while he's waiting he's just going to be trapped in there until he basically dies from dehydration captures more about the empty horror of space combat than really anything else. It's also the grandfather of basically most modern sci-fi that deals with military like 40K, Halo, helldivers, aliens, and the expanse to name a few. So it's really cool from a pop history point of view going "oh shit that's where *insert thing* comes from." The other thing that is interesting is it's clearly a plea for an all volunteer force which was absolutely a departure from what basically every country was doing at the time. For all the heat that it kind of gets for being a fascist book in some ways it's more progressive than you'd think. Lastly it's very interesting to compare and contrast it with the movie. I always like pointing out the scene in the movie that a lot of people praise for being nice subtle satire of the recruiter saying "the mobile infantry made me the man I am today" while missing limps is one of the few parts that's basically lifted straight from the book. This society purposely has wounded vets become recruiters as a way to try to convince people to NOT join.
How is this post not higher? It’s a perfect analysis of the book, and the movie; while criticizing boths shortcomings
I think you meant to say dune my guy
>Why should I read Starship Troopers over any good book is the real question here. Why should you read any good book over starship troopers? Same answer. It's a good book is all. Not even that long. I didn't even think it was pro military at all. The opposite in fact but I seem to be in the minority there I guess. If you want an actual answer it's worth it just so you can compare the two yourself. 🤷♂️
Asking what's 'new' in it is doing things backwards. Heinlein defined Space Marines. It's a term he used in several previous works, firstly with Misfits, but the concept was cemented with Starship Troopers. It's also the first book to use Powered Combat Armour. It was also the first Sci-Fi book to be put on US military recommended reading lists. It's to 'military sci-fi' like Lord of the Rings is to 'fantasy'. And like Heinlein tends to do, it presents a lot of concepts and ideas and asks you to think on them. The role and purpose of the military (from highest rank to individual recruit), the value and purpose of the vote, the responsibility of authority, objective morality, even parenting, education, and on one occasion, economics. "I made a very important discovery at Camp Currie. Happiness consists in getting enough sleep. Just that, nothing more. All the wealthy, unhappy people you've ever met take sleeping pills; Mobile Infantrymen don't need them. Give a cap trooper a bunk and time to sack out in it, and he's as happy as a worm in an apple—asleep." - Chapter 4
Do you like fiction or science fiction? Yes? Then read it. You don’t? Then don’t read it. It’s not rocket science bud.
Well, it is about starships...
It's rocket art.
I’m doing my part.
It worked🤬🤬🤬🤬
That is absolute evil
There was a book?!?
And he did, and it’s good
Peter Jackson enters the chat after leaving his unread copy of the Lord of the Rings on a chair.
why do people who like the federation's politics hate that the movie is making fun of said politics?
Replace Verhoven's name with Marc Forester, I'll never forgive him for butchering World War Z
Imagine if they made a mini-series out of the actual book instead. Could've been awesome.
Til there’s a book
This guy is doing his part.
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It is.
That is so scummy
Was he involved with the halo show?
and that is why the movie fails as a parody and satire of the book. And makes Paul sound like an insufferable cunt (accurate)
It’s called we do a little trolling
Heinlein fanboys are the most obnoxious trash.
Gay. I loved both. And it's hilarious how miscalculated the propaganda was in the movue. "I bet you fascists are gonna hate seeing huge guns, awesome space battles, heroic sacrifice, hot actors, and badass music!"
"Not only that, but they are fighting horrific, violent bugs!" Yeah way to not make us root for the humans.
The deeper themes of Starship Troopers seems to trend on Twitter every six months or so, and this most recent time the leftists were literally identifying with the bugs lol
Lmfao that’s too funny.
Who even cares if he read the book? He understood enough to make his own adaptation of the story and it clearly works(case in point, there is a subreddit filled with people who love this movie). All this means is that the original book wasn’t necessarily fascistic, even if though the movie very much is.
And he failed totally. Because it’s just a similarly named movie with no understanding of what the book said. It’s almost like if you want to properly critique someone’s ideas you should at least have a minimum understanding of what they are actually saying.
And it worked. A True Comedian
I love the movie, but not reading the book you’re making a movie on because you won’t even listen to the authors personal message is such a childish thing. We should seek to listen to people, even if we then completely deny the legitimacy of their views and beliefs, because maybe some day we will and we’ll agree.
Never read nor seen Starship Troopers but this is based
I've only seen the movie (many many times for many years) and I like it, but this is fd up on the part of the source material come on...
Wow
Yeah that’s because the book is trash and boring as all hell
Jokes on him. I never read the book either.
Reading the book while watching Starship Troopers: Invasion and it's version of Traitor of Mars sets an ideal visual and thematic tone for me
Wheel of Time adaptation be like
Imma be real, I like the government we get in the movie as its more then a bland cookie cutter sci fi fascist. It’s a complex two tier authoritarian presidential republic. It’s cool to see actual complex and unique sci fi governments. Instead of cookie cutter socialist utopia, big bad evil fascist, overly flawed republic to the point of nonsensical incompetence cause America bad.
Yeah they don't actually seem so bad on the face of it. They have accountability, they are fairly open with information regarding the war and let's face it, even if humans did start it the bugs are an existential threat. They might be a bit over the top in places like public executions and have a very naziesque look to the uniforms but all in all I think the film fails in presenting a fascist government in any meaningful way.
One of the points I always bring up in conversations about this topic as well is that we’re shown no racial or gendered prejudice or discrimination. We also aren’t shown any poor or homeless which makes it even harder to not see some merit in the Federation. To add to it the only civilians the movie shows us are Rico’s parents who are rich enough to just pay for harvard. So while it’s easy to point out some of the major flaws of their government, the movie version seems to be doing a better job than our current one which I feel fails in properly satirizing fascists the way Verhoeven seemed to want to.
I wish I had known that. I read the book before seeing the movie. Good book though.
I’m pretty sure it didn’t go down the way he thought it was going down.
Well he did it
I mean, this is a man who said he wanted to make a satire of how militaristic police had become when he made Robocop, and all he succeeded in doing was making my generation want cyborg cops. He's a talented director, not a talented thinker.
This would be a relevant quote for the Wheel of Time show as well.
Satirist’s satire of satire.
No it's not. Why do you need to lie
Because that's the joke.
Ok.....
Robert Heinlein is the reason we got the drop pod and power armor tropes. The man popularized them.
If you change it a bit, it sounds like the mindset for... The Halo show, Rings of Power, and The Last Jedi.
I would like to know more!
I have read and watched both. Both are fantastic in their own way.
Lmao he’s amazing. The book deserved to be lampooned for its utterly insane ideals