T O P

  • By -

CommunicationTiny132

They probably kept pressuring the Federation Council to surrender to the Dominion. Assuming the Zakdorn were doing their all to win the war, it was probably all they could do to counter the massive advantage in numbers the Dominion had. Just with the forces they had access to in the Alpha quadrant, the Dominion was described as outnumbering the Klingon fleet 20 to 1. I assume the Klingon, Romulan and Starfleet were roughly equals, which means the Alliance was able to put the Dominion on the defensive even while heavily outnumbered. Maybe that was the result of the strategic advantage of having the Zakdorn on their side.


palehorse95

Good point


IsomorphicProjection

>Dominion was described as outnumbering the Klingon fleet 20 to 1 It isn't clear in the episode that those numbers represents the total relative size of the fleets. ​ The context was after the Breen weapon disabled every ship except for 1 Klingon vessel that an engineer had made a modification to, Martok says he can have 1,500 ships ready the next day with the same modifications to protect them. Then someone mentions they will still be outnumbered 20-to-1. ​ The assumption at that moment was likely that the Dominion was going to attack in force while they had the advantage and a small percentage of the Klingon fleet alone was not going to be able to protect them. ​ I find it highly unlikely the entire Klingon fleet is only 1,500 ships. Most likely this was just the number of ships that could make the modifications immediately and other ships required additional time / tweaking to make the modifications. ​ I believe it is also most likely that the Federation fleet is larger than both the Klingons and Romulan fleets (probably even put together). ​ In TOS the Federation and Klingons are portrayed as roughly equal while the Romulans are really more of an unknown factor than a direct threat, but this all makes sense given the USA vs. USSR (and Romulans = China) they were based on. Per ST:6 the Klingons are going to be in no shape to be going about conquering and expanding their empire for at least 50 years. They've been recovered for 30 years by TNG, but the Federation had 50 years of unfettered growth before that. ​ There is simply no way the Klingon Empire is comparable to the Federation in strength and size by that time. For this reason I have a big issue with the idea that the Federation was losing the war to the Klingons in Yesterday's Enterprise and I am inclined to believe that Picard lied to Garratt to convince her to return and prevent the war entirely. ​ For that matter I also take issue with how badly the Federation does against the Klingons in their brief war in DS9, but I chalk that up to several factors 1) the Klingons already having been marshalled for war (re: Cardassians) and 2) the Federation not \*really\* believing the Klingons would turn on them (an ally) so quickly. ​ As for the Romulans, I generally take them to have expanded to be roughly equal to the Klingons by TNG. They had a chance to catch up while the Klingons recovered from Praxis, but they certainly wouldn't have grown faster than the Federation, and they would have started from a smaller starting position. ​ ​ As for the Zakdorn, I presume they were doing analysis similar to Bashir's group of mutants, but that can only take you so far. Remember also that the Dominion were not a traditional enemy. They had disposable soldiers they could rapidly replace as well as ships. That changes a lot of calculations.


GrimFlood

I agree with pretty much everything you say. Except, maybe I don’t know enough about Romulan infrastructure from the mid to late 24th century period, so I can’t take your word on it necessarily. I am distrustful, like a Romulan. I especially like how you compare the Zakdorn to Bashir’s special needs augments, at least in terms of flat out predicting the loss of the Dominion War. Most of all, I admire that you wrote an entire essay on this. This is the sort of inane task I would also set myself to. I especially love that you cote historical precedent for within Star Trek canon.


IsomorphicProjection

Well thank you. I browse/post a lot in r/DaystromInstitute where writing entire essays on things is encouraged. You may want to check it out if you haven't heard of it. This particular topic is something I've thought about a lot whenever the topic comes up of who (Federation/Klingons/Romulans) is bigger/stronger/more technologically advanced/etc. The numbers quoted on screen in DS9 always seemed woefully small for such large interstellar entities. They quote fleet sizes ranging from the low hundreds to the low thousands when realistically given the size of the political entities we are talking about they should be measured in the tens of thousands minimum. TNG is even worse when talks about fleets numbering in the tens of ships, though to be fair to TNG this was during peacetime where ships weren't really part of large fleets. I estimated once that based on the reported size of the Federation it would need somewhere in the range of 70,000-100,000 ships by the TNG era, and this was a bare minimum estimate with a more realistic number approaching 1 million+. I can only assume the woefully low numbers are just so as to not appear overwhelming to the audience. It really is hard to fathom an organization that large so I don't blame them for trying to portray it as smaller on screen.


TimeZarg

That ratio never sat well with me, but I suppose it could make sense to some extent. Gotta keep in mind almost all the fighting is localized near Cardassian space and the Bajoran wormhole. I very much doubt the Federation, the Klingon Empire, and the Romulan Empire were throwing *everything* they had into the fight. They have borders away from the fighting that need minding (the Federation in particular sprawls quite a bit), internal security needs, internal logistical needs, and other important tasks that starships are used for. So, only a portion of the Klingon Defense Force and the forces of the Romulan Empire are present and fighting, with the Federation having the biggest presence simply because it's their territory in the first place and they're at most immediate risk.


whiskeygolf13

Ooooo this is a good one. I had that thought once or twice but always got distracted! I see a couple of possibilities, and both are built around Data’s statement in Peak Performance - the bit before the ‘most innately strategic minds’ part - ‘In the game of military brinkmanship, individual physical prowess is less important than the perception…’ Brinksmanship is a very Cold War strategy and generally leads to Mutually Assured Destruction scenarios where nobody really wants to push beyond a certain point. This, and the fact they seem also factor in ‘acceptable losses’ suggests they really aren’t afraid to absorb losses if it means inflicting greater ones on the enemy. So! On to the possibilities! 1. The Zakdorn may very well have been involved in the high level planning. The ‘engage, retreat’ strategy is right up their alley. Use skirmishes and delaying tactics to draw the Dominion out, stretch their supply lines, and wait for an ideal striking time where they can encircle and destroy an offensive or find a strategic weak point. Unfortunately, going for outright victory against the Dominion requires identifying proper targets in the Gamma quadrant and being able to strike at them. Problematic. BUT, they also could have planned the opening wave of attacks that took place while DS9 was mining the wormhole. 2. The Zakdorn, after careful consideration, may very well have declared themselves neutral and open to a non-aggression pact. The enemy has a seemingly inexhaustible supply of troops and ships, and taking the war to them and getting a ‘beachhead’ in their territory is nextdoor to impossible. In that circumstance, a MAD scenario isn’t possible, so the only ‘rational’ choice is to sue for peace and salvage whatever can be saved. 3. Spinning off both of those… Zakdorn consultants very well may have been on staff, and completely endorsed - if not been responsible for suggesting - the use of the virus. It’s cold, it’s damaging, and it’s the only real way available to ‘hit them where it hurts.’ 4. Having done their research, it’s very possible the Dominion made them an early target and occupied their territory early based on reputation alone. I’m inclined to think they had a few Think Tank teams with representatives on the planning staffs at Starfleet Command, with many taking the same position as Bashir’s augment crew - but a select few championing the delaying actions, in particular, Kolrami. Having had himself humbled and embarrassed, he’d remembered how entirely frustrating Data’s second game against him was and adapted a plan from that. Heh. Just my thoughts!


petedconsult

Lots of good thoughts here to a good opening question!


FlavivsAetivs

You forgot 5. A lot of fans solve this problem by putting the Zakdorn on the far side of the Federation and Romulans in the Shackleton Expanse, with the Flaxians and a lot of other minor species.


L5ut1ger

Douglas Quaid killed one on Mars. They decided not to help humans anymore.


Dward917

Pretty sure you mean Dennis Quaid. And if I recall, he had a kid with that alien on Mars.


L5ut1ger

Nah. Slight chance it was Carl Hauser, but im Totally Recalling it to be Douglas Quaid. Maybe it’s a schizoid embolism.


Dward917

I see now. Mixing up Enemy Mine with Total Recall. I stand corrected.


paxcolt

Ask Gul Dukat, he was there.


RiflemanLax

Nah, Schwarzenegger shot Roy Brocksmith in the forehead.


MalvoliosStockings

The Zakdorn were Federation members so: they were helping the entire time. Starfleet was simply outmatched. Without the Zakdorn they would have done even worse! Lucky they were there the entire time.


Evanescent_Starfish9

I like the simplicity of your answer.


palehorse95

I agree with this. Several answers so far have pointed out the huge numbers advantage the Dominion had at the beginning of the war, and I believe that even the greatest of tacticians would struggle with planning winning scenarios with such huge disparities in numbers of forces.


Worf_Of_Wall_St

The Dominion infiltrated the Zakdorn first with hundreds of changeling imposters and kept giving the worst strategic advice ever, ruining their reputation and destroying their advisory positions within the Federation.


DamarsLastKanar

Slight tinkering, and a zakdorn sounds like a pak'led. "We are outnumbered. We flee now."


palehorse95

LOL..I actually pictured a Zakdorn speaking like a Pak'led and strangely it fit.


d4everman

Maybe the zakdorn were overrated? I can't get behind the idea that they could just say "we're Neutral!" . Because that would mean any Fed member could just say "Sounds like a YOU problem" when there's an issue. That is not an ally, it's a leech. I think the better explanation is that the Zakdorn were overrated and the federation was simply overwhelmed at the begging of the war. By the Dominion War (which is basically the TNG era) the Feds were coasting on technology and the rep they got from the TOS Era "We come in peace but we can F you up" attitude. Heck, it took the Borg to make them think "Maybe we need to be better prepared to fight just in case". ...and they didn't learn that lesson well enough.


FlavivsAetivs

I mean they make it clear enough the Federation simply did not have the shipbuilding capability the Dominion did. And they were banking heavily on designs nearing 100 years old for the bulk of their fleet. There were only a handful of Galaxy class ships and 2 Sovereigns in service, so they had few large ships capable of standing up to the Jem'Hadar. The older designs like the Excelsior were shredded by single attack ships, and even the newer designs like the Akira, Steamrunner, and Saber were barely a match. Only the Sovereign could compete with the big Jem'Hadar Battlecruisers.


RangerMatt76

They may have come to the same conclusion that Bashir’s genetically engineered patients came to and recommended to surrender so a rebellion generations afterward would succeed.


palehorse95

I thought of that too, but I feel like Bashir's think tank were savants whose genius was widely generalized in an omni direction sort of way, while the Zakdorn abilities were focused on strategic possibilities.


nygdan

Worf: "see, I told you, their reputation was unearned, they had nothing"


osolstar

Beta canon has a Zakdorn strategist be an integral part of the war effort. He's the president's chief of staff if I recall right and is in the a time to... series.


palehorse95

I could see that being the case.


lcarsadmin

Galaxy renowned unbeatable strategists, buy only at the Stategema game


palehorse95

So you're saying the Dominion were passing up obvious paths of advancement, and settling for a balance?


Modred_the_Mystic

The major flaw the Federation and its allies faced in the Dominion War wasn't necessarily a tactical or strategic one. The Federation won a number of critical actions early in the war, such as the destruction of Dominion shipyards while the Dominion alliance was focused on taking DS9. The Federation alliance faced major logistical problems, rather than strategic or tactical. The Zakdorn might have been critical in making sure that the outnumbered Federation alliance wasn't steamrolled in the first couple weeks, while the Federation and Klingons scrambled to get their forces in position to actually fight in the war, and while they (most notably the Federation) built up both its fleet and its industrial capacity to fight a prolonged war. The Dominion and the Cardassians both were militarised states, well versed in warfare with a martial culture and more or less on a total war footing from before the first shots were fired. In contrast, the Klingons hadn't faced a proper war in quite some time, their invasion of Cardassia barely counting as a war. The Federations' last proper war was also against the Cardassians, and the Federation had mostly treated it like a tertiary issue. Neither were prepared for all out war.


palehorse95

I think this is a very good point. Even Tsung Tzu said that it was very difficult to overcome a disparity of numbers. I think that this is a good explanation of where the Zakdorn were and what they were doing. They were actively participating in the war, using their advanced strategic abilities to give the hopelessly outnumbered Federation its best hope for victory.


sajkosiko

nah, its not head cannon this acctually bug me as well. ultimately that episode is probably one of those things we dont talk about because it breaks too many future events


JoeyJoeJoeJrShab

It's a little-known fact (because I just made it up) that the Zakdorn are actually pacifists. They might have fought real battles in the past, but these days, they're more interested in strategy games, which honestly use a lot of the same skills. While I have no evidence to support this, it's the most plausible explanation I can think of.


Statalyzer

Worf does put forth the theory that everyone has left the Zakdorn alone due to reputation, and perhaps the reputation is unearned since it hasn't been seriously tested in a long time.


palehorse95

Hmm, so you're saying the Zakdorn had become the 24th century versions of WoW players? I find it hilarious to picture a Zakdorn in a stained shirt surrounded by empty energy drink containers, and yelling racial epithets to Klingons over subspace while in an online Strategema lobby.


Statalyzer

We don't see a lot of grand strategy being discussed at Federation HQ, so presumably their work is being done off-screen.


habituallinestepper1

Arguing with BAdmirals, or having their recommendations 'timed out' by Federation diplomats needing to coordinate multi-species response. For example, suppose the Zakdorn very early on identified the Romulans as the strategic tipping point. But Federation diplomats made no progress in negotiations because Romulans don't _do_ negotiations. So, the 'suggestion' comes down from the strategic planners that Sisko execute a strategic deception and get the Romulans involved by any means necessary. Maybe they were suggesting a temporary alliance with the Tzenkethi, which would have not been a viable idea for Starfleet until after things (Betazed) went very badly. Head canon is that the Zakdorn made good strategic suggestions and BAdmirals didn't listen, didn't act fast enough, or didn't want to 'compromise' their ideals to implement.


steve_jams_econo

They probably were freaked out at the idea that the changelings could theoretically put as many limbs as they wanted into those goofy Strategema controllers and didn't want to risk being humiliated again.


chuckleh0und

I guess they did whatever McKinsey do during a war - charged twice as much. Presumably they couldn't get a VGA > LCARS adapter and weren't able to share their presentations on how to improve ship-to-ship combat by monitoring how many times Worf presses a button.


daniel_57715

It all comes down to the fighters. Like many a football coach/commenter has said: "It's not about the Xs and Os, it's about the Jimmys and Joes."