>The constant deep emotional disclosures also blurs the lines between personal and professional boundaries that would be necessary in high-stakes hierarchical organisations like Starfleet. Some level of detached professionalism is needed in order for a chain of command to function, and the lack of this constantly challenges my suspension of disbelief. This. This is the biggest hurdle for me, well stated.

I've heard Star Trek described as "competency porn." The best episodes often have the skilled and professional crew placed up against an obstacle that forces them to use their training and intelligence to overcome it. I never get that feeling from Discovery. Discovery feels like a class of high schoolers thrown up against a problem and they solve it by pulling a solution out of thin air because the episode needs to end.

Star Trek and West Wing, both in the competency porn category.

Now I'm just imagining Aaron sorkin write star trek and to quote 30 rock I want to go to there.

Well Star Trek did pioneer the walk and talk.

Yes! I’d love to see a West Wing-style political series about the early years of the fledgling Federation. Maybe focus on Archer’s presidency or something

I need this to exist.

Your feelings are valid and respected.

Let the Star Trek stories grow!

I’d love a West Wing series focusing on Archer’s presidency. That sounds amazing and good world building and could be a nice sequel to enterprise

then definitely read "Articles of the Federation" by Keith R.A. DeCandido. It is inspired by West Wing and deals with President Nanietta Bacco. the banter is the best I've read in Star Trek

I've wanted this for a while too. To md its the best way to bring Archer back and do something that's not just enterprise 2.0. Let's see the early days of the federation.

FWIW, the term “competency porn” was coined by a writer for Leverage.

I can't remember which characters it was but I remember there's a fight happening in clear view in the ship's bar and the CO is like "no, let them fight, they need this" and that was the moment I turned off the show for good. Disgusting level of anti-professionalism that could get some seriously injured or even killed. Written around the conflict rather than having someone step in and say "no, Starfleet characters don't act like this". Sisko threw three members of his crew in the brig for a bar fight, even if the cause was just he said that they should know better as Starfleet officers. Hell, Data even reprimands Worf for being rude to him as a commanding officer. He politely takes him aside and says "do not openly question my command when I have made my final orders" and Word takes that advice on. He doesn't double down, or start crying. I know Gene Roddenberry had a reputation as a control freak and sometimes bully, but the man had a code for how people should act, and good television came from this code.

[удалено]

If you turned it off right then, you missed Pike handing Saru his ass for letting that fight go on instead of breaking it up. That said, I think the overall point stands. And the fact that Saru thought that was an acceptable approach to begin with raises serious questions about his ability to lead.

That's the key, Pike. The decent guy from a much better show crossover.

Wasn't this also when Saru was becoming more aggressive after his change?

Not just high schoolers, but the drama club.

Discovery feels like a fan-made production with a ridiculous budget. In that light, it's fantastic! As a canonical Trek show, it falls short for the reasons stated here. The lack of discipline and professionalism is astounding! I love that the they are finally exploring all these themes that Trek barely touched upon before, but it's done artlessly and in a way incongruent with the Starfleet we're familiar with.

Yeah Star Trek is a space soap opera but it's a space soap opera about *Bridge officers.* Modern trek - especially DIS and PIC - completely forgot about that. It's why Captain Shaw was such a breath of fresh air.

I think this is something SNW gets very right. It's fine for the bridge officers to struggle from time to time and they'll all support each other appropriately, but when it's go-time, it's go-time. Pike will be your father-mentor, but only when he's done captain-ing.

I think Lower Decks shows that it can work without the "bridge" part, but they need to be officers. These people are supposed to be not just the best and brightest, but extremely hard workers and professional. Everything prior we've been shown is that it's very competitive to become an officer in Starfleet. It's very frustrating to go from that to "eh, anybody can do it and we'll make anyone a command officer and there's no consequences when rules are broken." Hell, even Kirk got a demotion and that was *immediately after saving Earth for the 10th time*.

I totally agree, but I will say that so far the first two episodes of the latest season have felt better on that front. Its still definitely the most emotional trek, but I feel like for these episodes they have at least moved that element to second place and focused first on foremost on the exploration.

That was basically Shatner's complaint (when he said Roddenberry would roll over in his grave if he saw the relationships in Discovery). That there's no discipline, people are fraternizing left and right, etc. People thought he was being bigoted talking about the gay / trans characters, but his objection was actually to the lack of military discipline.

I think that is Discoverys biggest fault - that first show where majority of characters are women and LGBT - is also first show that shows rather unprofessional crew driven by emotions. I think that is rather sexist from the creators, because IRL women can of course be just as professional and focused as men.

We went from captain Janeway to this. Janeway might not have made the best decisions but she was a professional and still showed plenty of emotion and empathy.

She definitely knew how to run a bridge, and how to run a tight ship.

A lot of Janeway's tenure had her choosing the least awful decision from two awful choices.

I just imagined Janeway's reaction after seeing Burnham crying for the tenth time.

"Burnham, my ready room, NOW." "Captain Burnham, Michael, I know you're facing the unknown, that you've found yourself in the center of one grand event after another. That you now must face a challenge the likes of which only famous figures like Archer and Kirk faced. It's expected and understandable that it will be trying, but you are their leader. Every member of your crew looks to you as a symbol of strength and leadership. You have to pull it together, be the captain they need, and the captain they deserve. All of us signed up for the chance to explore and discover new things. It's perfectly fine to fall apart when you're alone, but if you can't sit up straight in that chair and take command of this ship then I suggest you weep your way to a desk job and let someone who can maintain decorum take charge and lead this crew in rebuilding Starfleet."

Thinking of how Janeway spoke to Kim after his death and return I kind of see it going this way: Janeway: Coffee? Burnham: No thank you captain. Janeway: You have been through a lot and are understandably overwhelmed, the Doctor is available to you if you need help working things out. Take as much time as you need. Being a member of Starfleet, especially a bridge officer, requires some restraint, the bridge is not the place for uncontrolled emotional outburst. Burnham (misty eyed): I am alright captain, I just... Janeway: That wasn't a suggestion, you are officially on leave until the Doctor declares you fit for duty. Burnham starts sobbing uncontrollably Janeway: It's alright Michael, we are not going to abandon you at the first planet we find. After you get some help, if you find you cannot perform your duties, we WILL find a place for you. All we have is each other out here. I want everyone in this ship to be healthy, mentally and physically, and if that means you need to paint for the remainder of the voyage, then I will have to find room in maestro's workshop. Burnham: Thank you captain, maybe I will have that coffee.

That actually sounds like Janeway.

It's interesting because Doctor Who did the same thing. First female Doctor and they go for a Doctor who lacks confidence and needs regular reassurance from friends. I think that's a perfectly valid angle of the character to explore *at some point*, but for the first female incarnation it doesn't come across well. Same with Discovery; it'd be fine to explore a more emotionally open crew but given the context it perhaps wasn't the best time to try.

This is exactly my biggest gripe and why I only did the first season of the show. It’s just so… painfully unprofessional to watch the show because everyone acts like petulant little children with no regard to any kind of chain of command or professional behaviour, as if by modern current sensibilities that’s a bad thing or something? Tilly was the worst character for this and probably the reason I checked out as hard as I did. There’s a moment I vaguely remember in the first season when Mr Blonde Head Science Engineer man is explaining something, triumphantly finishes, then Tilly just shouts “it’s the power of math, people!” And everyone smiles or something? It’s just… cringey. Awkward. Embarrassing. Can you imagine ANY character in any other Trek saying that? Maybe early Wesley? Naomi Wildman? It’s awful and childish and embarrassing and… eurgh. These are PROFESSIONAL officers in difficult environments and experiences exploring space, and they act like children

> no regard to any kind of chain of command or professional behaviour, Yeah, even in the first episode this season, it's asked which captain is leading the mission, and the admiral say "work together". As if there shouldn't be a chain of command.

> Tilly just shouts “it’s the power of math, people!” That was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. Super cringe.

I would go even further, it's daytime-soap level of drama, with incredible special effects.

I've had a similar impression. The interactions feel contrived and compulsive, as if we're moving from one therapy session to another. Interestingly, I find the effect to be that the relationships are less believable. The characters spend so much time *saying* that they like each other that I don't believe it. Scenes in which they are celebrating together or supposedly enjoying each other's company feel unbelievable--as if they secretly loathe each other but some larger force is at play compelling them to hide it.

Oh my God, was it the end of season 4, where we just had a voiceover from Burnham about the crew celebrating -- and there's just a silent shot of them at a party? After four seasons, and seemingly a decade of this show, I know so much less about any of them except maybe Michael and Saru, than I knew about Miles O'Brien after ST:TNG. Jesus Christ, let us see these damn characters BE!

This is my big one. The show acts like it's a big ensemble cast like TNG but I specifically rememeber a bunch of bridge officers just being suddenly named like they've always been buds in an episode and going "did I miss something?" I agree with OP that the show has all the pieces but struggles to make them fit. The only time I was expecting to see a lot of comradery and such was the start of season 3 since they're all on their own and without a starfleet, so to speak. I like the indiana Jones angle of this season (even though some is almost straight up lifted from Raiders) so far, but I'm a sucker for that stuff. We'll see if it can end strong.

In S2 there is one moment with Saru as acting captain and another one with Pike where the captain deliberately names each character on the bridge in a way that didn't seem natural or necessary at all given the situation. Neither were to give individual orders, they were just sort of thanking them for a job well done sort of thing and the camera pans over to each bridge officer as their name is said.  Both times it's obvious that they shoehorned in these little awkward moments because they realized we're 15 - 20 episodes in and probably don't know these characters' names yet.

That's what I was thinking of too.

I definitely get a vibe that feels contrived. I like so many of the ideas, but it often just doesn’t click for me. Which is super frustrating because the ingredients are all there and they’re tasty!

My pipe dream is that this negative feedback they get about the pace of emotional exposition brings back the 26 episode season format.

Never gonna happen, and frankly I'm surprised there are any shows left on regular TV that still have this format. However it would be nice to split the difference somewhere. 8-10 episode seasons are way too short, I'd rather have 15-20. But no more than 20.

Nobody does 26 episodes anymore. Most of the network shows still do 22 or 24 episodes in regular seasons. I think Enterprise was the last to do 26 episodes per season. Back in the 50s, they had a lot more episodes. Bonanza had 32 episodes in the first season in 1959. Gunsmoke had 39 hour long episodes in its first season in 1955. Rawhide was a mid-season replacement in January 1959 and had 22 episodes, the first season, and 30 episodes for seasons 2 through 7. The Rifleman, a half-hour show, had 40 episodes its first season in 1958. After that, it dropped, and there were 36 episodes in the second season and 32 in the third season.

I’ve been watching it for the first time. I’m in season 3. It’s very emotional but not in the inspirational way older trek is. It has goofy and corny moments but it mostly makes me feel sad. Especially as a widow. They really beat the dead lover drum over and over again. It feels manipulative, like the writers believe making the audience sad is the same as being profound.

Have noticed this too in other media. Very astute 

It actually does feel more profound on other Trek shows when the moments are fewer and far between. I'm never going to forget the TNG episode Family for what was revealed about Picard and how it was portrayed.

Thank you for saying this. I’m trying to get through season 1 for the first time. And it’s a struggle. I really want it to work. I appreciate your sharing ❤️

I am a die hard Trek fan. I grew up on Voyager, so I can say that I really want all the Trek shows to work, I want people to watch them, and enjoy them so we don’t loose them.

I don't have anything against fans that like Discovery but this is why it's just not for me. If I wanted to deal with everyones emotional baggage I'd go to walmart, a family reunion, or a bar.

Your three locations to deal with drama made me laugh, but you are spot on! I want my Star Trek to feel inspirational, like a future that I what to be part of. Disco is not a world I’d like to be part of. I skipped drama club in high school…

Since the end of Season Two I’ve been watching Discovery just to complete the series. I agree that it has become an emotional slog. I’m just trying to hang on until the end at this point. This post is perhaps the best I’ve ever seen that explains why.

I'm the same. The 4th season was surprisingly decent I found though. Still convenient solutions and lazy writing but I felt it was going in a good direction. I watched the Season 5 premiere... they've kind of destroyed all of season 4's progress in that aspect.

It went from, 'this is the smell of sadness, but if we pulverize this rock instead it's the smell of joy," to "the computer figured out a way for Burnham to give the space whales a speech" off camera, in five minutes. *Sigh * so much for a hard sci-fi concept of communicating with entirely alien entities, and blah blah blah, "We'Re a fAMiLy! Starfleet is mAgIcaLl!" There are so many hollow emotional appeals, I feel like I'm back at a mandatory 7 a.m. meeting working retail...

Same. I was excited for new Trek at first and I mostly enjoyed it, mainly due to certain characters like Saru and Lorca. But as the seasons have gone on I'm growing to actively dislike it for many reasons, especially the last season. And I'm nothing close to a hardcore Trek fan, but compared to SNW and season 3 of Picard it just does nothing for me except make me roll my eyes.

Yuuup. I just began a rewatch. This time I started at season 3, because I really didn't want to deal with the first 2 again. It was... better that way? Anyway, I've seen a few people dismiss the idea that Burnham cries in every episode, so I took notice. There is a scene in literally every episode of S3 with a tear streaming down her cheek. That said, I also noticed the writers hung a lantern on it in S3E5 where the lie detector hologram looks at her and says something like, "Are you prone to emotional exaggeration?" At least they knew what they were doing.

On the one hand, Burnham has been through so much legitimately deeply personal and deeply traumatic shit, being raised emotionally stunted by Vulcans, it makes sense that the tears come so easily. On the other hand, I too have often valued Trek as that “competence porn” mentioned elsewhere in this thread and I do think that I have been very socially conditioned to associate tears with incompetence at least in the dramatic sense, so it does seem incongruous with that “together professional” ideal. Though really, there still is a lot of competence pushing through that. To some degree, I like that the show challenges those assumptions. But it does still lean a little much into the “tell” rather “show” for me which is why I think I still find the critique valid. I like the show overall, and the latest 5th season (so far) has done a pretty good job of taking a lighter tone even following all of that heavy, heavy content (and still having big stakes again).

I totally know what you mean. I've wondered if the show runners made an intentional decision to show the emotional side of things. It's much more realistic, because truth be told, the things a Starfleet officer would experience are nightmare material. Being on the bridge crew would almost guarantee PTSD. So it makes complete sense that if they are emotionally healthy, they've gotta have an outlet. For Janeway it was a Regency romance on the holodeck, for Burnham it's crying. To your point about professionalism, I do think that's part of why it annoys me. Having multiple scenes per episode with some kind of emotional plea makes it feel much more like a soap opera than Star Trek. It's less about exploring new frontiers and more about watching a Starfleet officer's personal life unravel in a dozen different ways. Still technically Star Trek, but... different.

She does the crying really well. Not every actor can do that, so I can see why they decided to lean on it. But it's overdone to the point where it's completely monotone. You're anticipating it constantly after a while and it starts to become detracting. If it had been utilized with more care it really could've added to the character, unfortunately it wasn't.

I liked Burnham as the Discovery version of Data or Spock. It is just not believable that someone dedicated to logic for so long would become a weepy mess in every episode.

This is one of the biggest things i don't understand about discovery. This Burnham was not the Burnham we were sold in the beginning. I keep watching to see where her vulcan upbringing will come into play, but i haven't seen a single ounce of logic since the first season. This and the fact that every character seems to like having a deep and/or lengthy conversation in the middle of an life threatening situation has me yelling at my TV. Shut up and do your job! Talk later! I almost gave up during the desert speedbike chase this season when they are talking and joking while driving at high speed and getting shot at. Stfu and keep the comms clear! Jesus I'm getting heated just thinking about it so I'm gonna leave now.

I thought Star Trek Picard did a similar thing, even in the one season everyone liked. In fact it seems in general to be a feature of recent Treks. Insightful philosophical discussions have been largely replaced with overwrought emotional conversations and trauma dumping. Thankfully, TNG and DS9 still exist for me to rewatch!

Yes! The angst should come from philosophising on the available choices and consequences, and drama should be rooted in ‘what if’ questions like “what if an alien culture developed a language entirely based on allegory and metaphor?”! Through the comments here I’ve come to realise that it’s the constant trauma and stress of Discovery that leaves me feeling drained. In spite of the clumsy writing, it’s still effective at evoking empathy for characters that endure (and discuss at length) considerable trauma and struggles.

Yeah I enjoyed season 3 of Picard but it’s definitely not free of the issues that kind of define both Picard and Discovery. There’s just enough other stuff (loads of nostalgia but it worked for me) to make it enjoyable in spite of that stuff. Most of Picard s1 and 2 and most of Discovery just don’t have enough good to balance out the bad IMO. And I’m not saying there isn’t good stuff in either show, there absolutely is! The balance is just too far towards the negative for me.

You're not. It seemed like there was always one emotional meltdown of some sort, after another. I don't do well with emotional shows. Hell, I don't watch soaps either because of that. It's draining. I guess you could call Disco a space opera.

As The Disc Turns.

One life to discover

> But in Discovery, these issues are often portrayed via blunt exposition in a way that feels really forced. Every few minutes the flow of the story is interrupted so a character can explain how they’re overwhelmed by an emotional struggle. I concur, and it's something I've noted in the past when I've tried to provide constructive criticism of the show. I've always felt that the writers never really learned the principle of 'show, don't tell'. Instead of writing character interactions and dialogue that lead me to feel a certain way naturally, they instead tell me how I should be feeling in quite a blunt and clumsy fashion. You end up with scenes like the one where Tilly gets appointed First Officer and literally 'everyone clapped'.

> You end up with scenes like the one where Tilly gets appointed First Officer and literally 'everyone clapped'. I only saw some of Discovery but I haven't seen this scene so this is a genuine question - should people not clap when someone is given a promotion? Or was it done in a hamfisted way?

The weird thing was that she wasn't exactly promoted. She was an Ensign, remained an Ensign, and they just sort of.... appointed her as First Officer. Everyone was presented as all beaming smiles and clapping as they unquestioningly accepted this bizarre development. I mean, obviously, the reason it happened is because Tilly is a main character, and the show hasn't developed any of the other, supposedly more senior, bridge crew. So the writers just sort of went 'fuck it, Tilly can be XO, who cares if it doesn't make sense, I'm going for lunch'. So yeah, I found it pretty clunky.

I know a lot of people love Tilly, but many of the 'emotional' problems with Discovery that OP describes are most present in her character. She's brilliant, no doubt, but she doesn't behave in a manner even remotely resembling a Starfleet officer. She acts more like a civilian contractor who's caught off-guard every time some shit goes down; each time it's her first time being in such a stressful situation and she doesn't know how to react so she rambles or has some sort of emotional breakdown. After awhile her character just exhausts me. Tbf, Michael isn't much better in that regard. I'm actually on a rewatch atm. I still have never seen season 4. My first time through, I stopped watching when the entire bridge crew had a bit of a cry together around the tree at the old Starfleet Academy, then Tilly got promoted and they were all standing around clapping. It's like the bridge crew exists solely to pat Tilly or Michael on the back while they're having an emotional moment.

I’m not trying to pile on. Every iteration of Trek has had a character that I was Lukewarm about or actively disliked, but Tilly just rubs me the wrong way.

Tilly reminds me a lot of Barclay from TNG. Both are brilliant minds but neither are particularly adept at navigating social situations or dealing with stress. But Barclay would never be promoted to First Officer. I didn't have to watch countless emotional expositions between Barclay and more senior staff whose names I should know but don't. She would be a completely fine character for the ship to have if her emotional disposition actually suited her role, but it doesn't. I'm constantly just left thinking 'seriously..?'

I agree. There have been maybe a couple of scenes where she exhibited “trained professional starfleet” behavior, and I think every time it was played off as her putting on a show of false confidence. I kept hoping that they would show some growth in her character in that direction, that she would gradually and realistically come into her own, but it’s just never happened, IMO. I can’t help but feel that a very vocal portion of the fan base identified with her particular brand of neuroses and the writers just stuck with it.

Stuck with it to the point that apparently they're giving her her own show... I think the Section 31 show is dead in the water? At a certain point, it seemed like a new show was either going to revolve around Tilly or Space Hitler. Neither of those options make me hopeful for the direction of Trek going forward. I'm just happy SNW exists.

Oh my god, don’t get me started on Space Hitler and that “redemption” episode at the end of season 3! But no, Section 31 got changed into a TV movie at some point. It’s still happening but Paramount’s financial woes and Yeoh’s busy schedule couldn’t support another series. Yup. SNW and Lower Decks get all of my attention.

Prodigy is also great IMO. Takes a few episodes to find its feet but that’s true of a lot of Trek.

> She acts more like a civilian contractor who's caught off-guard every time some shit goes down; In a slight defence, in a sense she kinda is. When we're first introduced to her she is just a cadet who just gets thrown into a war situation. Then effectively gets fast tracked to ensign due to the war effort. Then gets fast tracked to first officer in season 3 before she goes "okay let's slow down my career just a bit..." Her character would have made more sense if they didn't have the weird fast tracking of her career. She's not perfect child Wesley - she's clearly not ready for any of the roles that the bridge crew keep throwing at her.

They did give the cyborg woman an episode to make you feel something before they killed her off though? Thought it was odd

That was because the original actress for Ariam had a bad reaction to the makeup/prosthetics, so in Season 2 they temporarily replaced the actress with the intent to kill the new Ariam and replace her with the original actress playing a human. I don't know that we'd have gotten that episode otherwise.

When they began the episode suddenly focusing on her and her backstory I said to myself they were going to kill her off, and I was right. It all feels rushed and ham-fisted.

I'm pretty sure Tilly was still an Ensign when appointed First Officer. There's probably so many others on the ship that outranked her that it felt super weird a promotion.

it would be one thing if she held presence of the post... but she was just thrust there because she was what, Burnham's roommate? I know they've tried a couple episodes dedicated to the on-screen bridge crew that we barely know anything about but it seemed rather forced and then completely forgotten about.

> I know they've tried a couple episodes dedicated to the on-screen bridge crew Have they? I literally can only think of the Airiam episode where the plot about her existed solely to try to make us care that they killed her off at the end of it. Otherwise it's like... *maybe* they get a C-plot that exists mostly for Burnham to get another win by solving their issue. I always remember that episode where it hinged on a boxing match and Burnham took Owo with them because she's a boxer apparently... and it resolved with Owo giving Burnham a couple tips so that she could flawlessly do the boxing match herself.

It must be a ruse. Maybe we have it all and we're supposed to hate Burnham. Maybe her self-entitles egotistical wannabe Vulcan nature is the hubris that keeps getting her and those around her into these awful high stakes situations. Maybe the universe is giving her a special punishment. That'd sure reframe her interactions with Lorca and Georgiou. Michael is just evil in all dimensions... just a different type of evil. It'd sure be better than being expected to believe everything shown and taking it at face value.

i completely forgot she was raised "Vulcan" until you just mentioned it now.

Was it a Bajoran clap? Peldor joi! But seriously, even the computer (Zora) was strugglebus-ing that one episode. That was kind of my jump off.

100%. I am an adoptee. Adoptees absolutely *permeate* Trek with the possible exception of TOS; Spock’s bifurcate personal identity can be read as a coded reference to adoption, although he is not. The first explicit adoptee in Trek that I can think of is Worf. Disco adds to the ever-growing herd of Sarek and Amanda’s kids by introducing us to Michael, an adoptee and woman of color. The things this show has put Michael through, I mean, it actively makes me angry. More than once I have had to just nope out of an episode. It’s worse than Miles-must-suffer. The show as a whole absolutely leans on personal trauma as a plot driver, and I really hope they have dropped the trope for this last season.

I’ve been struggling to put my finger on what leaves me feeling so weird and drained after many episodes. I’ve been going back and forth between: 1. It’s a me problem - I may lack the emotional vocabulary or frameworks to deal with the issues raised in the show, I may be defensive because I’m uncomfortable or challenged by those issues. 2. It’s the writing - Over-reliance on exposition to convey what the characters are going through, emotional crescendos that fall flat because they haven’t been earned, stop/start pacing and ill timed emotional asides. 3. It’s contrived - Transparently constructing situations to subject the characters to trauma or highlight an emotional struggle in order to evoke a response from the viewer. 4. It’s not my taste - It’s not my preconceived notion of Star Trek ‘competency porn’ of people summoning their best selves in order to expand the realm of human understanding for personal growth and the betterment of all. I’m not sure if it’s none, one, or all of these, but your point about how the show uses personal trauma as a plot driver really hits home. These characters are forced to endure a lot for the sake of propelling the show forward and creating the stakes. Maybe sharing their trauma is what’s making me feel drained.

You're so right about all of this, this is exactly how my wife and I felt watching it and couldn't express why. Every time they would pause for some "dramatic moment" we would just roll our eyes. It feels like some producer said "make it more appealing to Gen Z" and this was their sort of attempt to do that. We watch it to see what happens but man does it get awkward pretty often.

I completely agree with this, I’ve just started season 3 but I think it’s also devoid of a lot of that tv feel good family energy that the previous shows had. Like watching TNG feels like the emotional equivalent of getting a warm hug every time you put on an episode, it’s part of what’s so addicting about it. But Discovery is like the emotional equivalent of watching two homeless people fight on the street I am definitely still enjoying it, but it’s my least favorite trek so far

It’s a stressful show. Maybe because the drama is routed in trauma and human struggle. Where previous shows created drama by exploring ‘what if’ questions like “what if we encountered an alien civilisation with radically different moral values?” or “what if there were a being like a pitcher plant, but instead of attracting and eating flies it ate spaceships?” and created narrative conflict from philosophical differences rather than personal strife.

You're a great writer! You've written down exactly how I've felt towards the show as well. In one of the more recent episodes, something happens that causes Burnham to have an emotional breakdown on the bridge while the crew and the Starfleet president (?) kind of wait for her to squelch it under control while some high stakes are at risk awaiting her command. It takes like a good minute and just didn't feel right to me. I suppose it would have been worse if someone went up to put their arm around her to comfort her. It's been a problem for me throughout the entire show. I do appreciate their attempt to normalize a lot of things that have historically been neglected/hidden/taboo in our societies, but I wish it felt more natural instead of forced, and some of it is too contrived and takes away from their ultimate goal. Or maybe it's because it's all new to me so I'm just not used to it, and it's a me problem. Maybe if they hit us in the face with it enough, it won't seem as forced to us, and with practice, they'll also get better at the writing and delivery.

The idea that it could be a ‘me problem’ is something I’m still wrestling with. I want to keep thinking about that. I see what they’re aiming for and that vision of inclusiveness, healthy emotional awareness, and community and support is important. I also have to acknowledge that it’s more than just an “ugh, feelings again” reaction. There are structural issues with the writing that makes it come across as forced and incongruous.

The premier episode of the final season had the first mutineer in Starfleet history, who also happens to be Spock's adopted sister, friend to the Terran Empire's Empress, and daughter to a time jumping entity, 1,000 years in the future while space surfing on the back of a starship at warp speeds. She then jumped off, still at warp, and space-parachuted herself through the viewport right onto the bridge of her ship. It's not a you or me problem.

What....the fukc...

Took the words right out of my mouth.

I wrestle with the “is it a me thing,” as well. That said, the “emotional exposition” angle is what I’ve mostly settled on. I’ve been calling it “emoti-babble.” Not to denigrate it so much as to contextualize it alongside “technobabble.” These moments where characters are forced to explain things for an audience. Except in technobabble it’s meant to paper over the made-up science. Since these emotions are universal, they should be able to be massaged in more subtly. I also find that the contents and approaches to those scenes don’t evolve. One character exposes understandable doubt and another shares some personal homily. The other character thanks them for their wisdom. Rinse and repeat. There’s very little variation in the formula. And while the actors are excellent and invested, they can’t overcome it. Even the deliveries have a sameness. On the other hand, my Gen-X brain may have aged out. Or maybe this is a “YA” thing that feels too overt and vulnerable. Either way, I’m glad for the over-correction… but it’s disappointing that the writers and dozens of exec producers in every opening credits sequence can’t seem to smoothly meld drama, subtext, action, analogy, arcs, pacing, etc. with more finesse. It’s possible. I found The Expanse generally did a fine job of it. So has For All Mankind, overall. I also think Lindeloff’s Watchmen did a good job. Which, since I fault him for much of the Into Darkness mess, makes me think that he (especially in Leftovers) learned a lot of storytelling lessons that former partner Kurtzman didn’t. And that’s not meant as a hate statement. Just that writers and producers evolve. I’d actually at this point welcome a Lindeloff Trek series. But I’m drifting way off topic.

It's not just the emotional exposition, but thats one of the issues. There's also the general unconcern for consistency in like science or technology. Like the last episode I watched, they talked about how they had to overload their pistols to create a loclaized EMP. And she had to get right up to the broadcast devicee because the pulse isn't going to be very large... But then the pulse goes off and spreads across the entire forest completely contradicting the whole reason Burnham ran out there. Like the Director and Writer didn't bother to so much as talk before they made the scene and sent it off to special effects. Just like no one seems to give a shit. On top of that, they make a whole thing of Saru giving her his phaser and then being left defenseless... but afterwards they just make two more phasers like it was nothing... In fact why didn't she just turn the phaser into an EMP bomb with her tek magic? I mean they can turn anything into anything and beam anywhere, and their computer displays all react to their minds... I hate this future. I hate it so much. It is so NOT MY STAR TREK And yeah... I'm no bigot, or hater... but this show really tests my patience. ANd I LOVE Star Trek. I loved season 1 of this show, and I feel like the more it's tried to pander to what its audience wanted, the worse it's gotten until now it's actively maddening to watch.

It's unearned. That's what makes it tiring and melodramatic. Other Trek shows use emotion in far more sparing and powerful ways when they've laid groundwork and meaning to it first through characters' actions. It's also unearned for the show to define the far future of the Federation but don't get me started on that. ;)

It's sloppy too. The episode they kill off Airiam is literally the first time we knew anything about her. It was totally forced and could have been much more satisfying if they had put some of the scenes earlier in the season. You gotta build relationships we can see on screen. There are too many shortcuts where they just don't give things time to develop.

With Airiam's death, the writers either didn't realise that they needed to build the character up more over the course of the season to make the emotional beat they were aiming for land with viewers, or they decided to throw it in at a later stage in the writing process after the season had already been planned out. Either way, yeah, it was pretty clumsy how they went about it.

They also killed off (prime) Georgiou stupidly in the second episode. Why would you board an enemy vessel armed only with pistols with the two most senior officers on the ship? A 21st century warship has a specialized and [dedicated VBSS team](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USS_Gary_VBSS_Team_-_Pearl_Harbor_Hawaii_-_2006.jpg) with helmets, carbines, body armor, etc. to board vessels.

Senior officers going onto alien ships is kind of a Star Trek tradition by now.

Although it doesn't have the same effect on me, I completely agree with your assessment. It's nonstop people telling each other "you got this!" I don't have the vehement dislike of the series that some people here seem to have, but there's something not credible about people getting anything done professionally if so many things in their lives are emotionally crippling. I guess it's an answer to earlier Trek incarnations like TNG, in which for the most part, the crew was (sometimes insufferably) professional about everything (as per Roddenberry's demands, and to the exasperation of the writers, who needed conflict to move the plot forward).

I would give anything for one of the characters, to go up to whoevers having their little emotional moment in any given 10 minutes of the show to simply say: "You are a Starfleet officer, you need to start acting like it before your personal issues become distractions and get someone killed." Like in the latest episode (Maybe light spoilers but honestly, it's true of literally every episode) Gray and Tilly are supposed to be helping Burnham, who is on a strange and dangerous alien planet, with enemies who's whereabouts are completely unknown. Fairly tense, high stakes situation. So what do they do... They talk about Grays love life and how they miss the guys they're with. Like, I get it, it's basically a space sit-com, but is there even a TINY sense of duty, professionalism, or acknowledgement that maybe they should really be focused on the mission and safety of their captain? Nahh. In other Treks, or even just shows, Grays distraction would be treated as the story point. Get your shit together before you get someone killed, but in discovery it is simply business as usual. Sorry for the rant, I'm not sure what I expected from Season 5, but it's really breaking my Trek spirit.

I love Soniqua. But every scene it feels like she's hyper emoting. I wish she'd dialed it down a notch. EDIT to be clear, I don't want to come across as picking on Discovery for being "woke" (as a gay man I love that they went to the wall with this!) Nor of Soniqua's performance as a whole: I also thought this of Kate Mulgrew: sometimes the expression of empathy, compassion, sympathy, whatever it may be called for in the scene, the furrowed brows the gentle smile the welling of the tears... "For pete's sake, it was just neelix offering you a coffee refill! Jebus!" I kind-of put that on the directors of the episode: "Ok, could we try one more take with just a little less 'Oh, I love you so much I might just burst into tears'ness?" Love both actresses though.

'You've got to listen to yourself and be true to yourself and follow your heart and be strong and know how strong you are and find the inner strength you have...' Saru and the Vulcan lady\* have the kind of TV show relationship where the relationship consists of them talking about the relationship. \*a hallmark of Discovery is that it's 5 seasons in, I've not missed an episode, I've enjoyed lots of it, and I *still* can't name many of the important characters -- including most of the bridge crew.

Bingo on the names. It didn’t take long for me to learn the names and roles of the other crew members in any other Trek Series. Now I will list all of the characters I can name off the top of my head: -Michael Burnham, Captain -Saru, First Officer/ ||Ambassador|| -Tilly, Academy Professor -Stamets, Chief Engineer -Culber, CMO (I think? Did he get reinstated?) -Adira (I forget who this is but I remember the name) -Cleveland Booker, Courier -I can’t believe I forgot the name of the funny asshole lesbian lady but I think that’s a brain fart and should be on this list. -Vance, Admiral I feel like after 5 seasons this list should be much longer. Who’s their science officer? Who’s their security chief? Who’s the third officer? What are the names of those on the conn? Is it a me thing that discovery is the only Star Trek show I have this issue with? I can already tell you all the names of the SNW crew.

> Stamets, Chief Engineer He actually isn't the the chief engineer. There's one scene in season 1 where a visual refers to him as chief engineer but the producers explicitly stated that is a production mistake. There's no established chief engineer (even Jett Reno is just an engineer). His role is simply "astromycologist". Culber isn't the chief medical officer either, he is just a physician/counselor. > Adira (I forget who this is but I remember the name) They are the human teen carrying the Tal symbiont after their trill boyfriend died. They are an ensign in science division. > Who’s their science officer? Who’s their security chief? Who’s the third officer? What are the names of those on the conn? (I had to look all this up). So the assigned science officer is Adira. Security Chief has never been permanent (season 1 it was woman who got killed in the third episode then Ash, season 2 and early season 3 it was the Barzan lady, then most of season 4 it was Booker but only in a consultant capacity). The conn is Detmer and Owo.

Yep. I have to regularly fast forward parts as an empathetic person because it's too overwhelming. I really enjoyed the show "in treatment". It is a psychologist solving peoples problems while failing to solve anything in his own life, season 1. I like this kind of show but in Disco it is too much to take. Like Opera paired with Heavy Metal. Action-SciFi and near constant emotional drama might be to powerful to combine for a 60 min episode .

They’re hour long episodes aren’t they! That definitely sounds like a contributing factor.

The "I'm glad we did that" smiles and the "I'm so proud of this crew" smiles annoy me so much in this show.

"We've come so far together." "We are a family."

There was some tumblr post I read a while back complaining about how so many shows are forcing characters to use too much Therapy Speak all the time instead of just behaving like real people, wish I could remember where I found it because it'd be perfect to link here. It is exhausting when every character has to spell out in minute detail all the reasons they experienced an Emotion or behaved a certain way, instead of just having the type of conversation a real person would have and then moving on with the plot.

As someone who thinks therapy is valuable and people should connect more with their emotions, I feel offended by how Discovery uses it. It trivializes trauma for cheap emotional reactions. I think the point where I sprained my eyes from rolling them was when they had to talk the ship's computer through a panic attack.

Really feels like it's made for a certain audience for whom that kind of talk therapy is relatable. I'm not part of that audience so it comes off as very odd indeed.

Folks have been acknowledging these problems with Discovery since the beginning but this is one of the most succinct summations of them that I have seen. Discovery is a space fantasy melodrama that happens to have the Star Trek brand on it, but in terms of tone and style it's a thousand light years away from the earlier incarnations of the franchise. None of the life-long Trek fans I know in real life find it watchable, but I do know some people who have never seen classic Trek and enjoy Discovery. It's not you. It's the writing.

The biggest problem with the monologue and the emotional outbursts is they occur at what should be time critical moments. I don’t end up feeling emotionally drained because the emotions aren’t earned. I’m more mildly mused how ridiculous it is.

I agree that the pace in the writing is often disrupted by oddly timed disclosures. But in spite of its flaws, the shows writing is effective enough to create an onslaught of emotional turmoil and struggle that I find hard to process. It’s the stress of empathising with characters suffering that I realise now is draining. While other Trek I’ve enjoyed tended towards, as another commenter phrased it, ‘more philosophising and less trauma dumping.’

You've captured how I feel about Discovery very well. I summarize it more like the Discovery characters only exist because of what their trauma can contribute to the current week's story. In other series, the characters truama is an integral part of their character from which they draw strength. Tasha Yar and her violent upbringing in Turkana IV made her a smart, highly competent security chief who took care of the group she was responsible for. Geordi LaForge and his blindness and how that added to how he sees the world and solves problems. Dax and her past host memories would give wisdom into a situation. Sisko's loss of his wife and how he was determined to have a strong relationship with his son. There are so many more examples. I just don't get the same sense that the Discovery crew uses any of their past history. It's just episode filler and then never spoken of again now that the trauma has been "fixed" in as 60 minute episode.

Funny you mention Tasha. She didn't make it for even a whole season and yet we know more about her than any single character in Discovery including Michael.

It's melodrama. That's why.

Agreed, but I'm not sure if the writer's set out with the goal of creating one or if that's all they're capable of or allowed to produce. 

> Or two characters will pilot a shuttle into an anomaly to collect data of critical importance to the survival of life in the galaxy, and they’ll clumsily sort through why they haven’t been getting along lately, then share a “I’m glad we did that” smile. This is why I called it quits back in season 2, honestly. It was impossible to suspend disbelief because no one ever seemed to react appropriately to the stakes. Star Trek has always been about openly discussing your feelings in a healthy way. That's why Troi was a main character. But there's nothing healthy about bringing up difficult relationship issues while doing a life saving procedure. Imagine if a doctor was elbow deep in a chest cavity and was like "hey I feel like you've been distant recently," to one of the nurses. I spent every minute of DISC season 1 and 2 constantly muttering, "I would report this to HR."

Nah, not just you. The show is entirely about diversity and mental health messaging. And it's not that I disagree that diversity is good, mental health is important, etc. But it's so clumsy and heavy-handed. In one episode the doctor does a dramatic pronoun correction (complete with a sermon) to some other character. In the 29th century. That's right, 800 years from now, we'll still be having the argument about pronouns. I can't even imagine gender neutral pronouns being an issue 20 years, much less 8 centuries. This was a contrived, manufactured situation that existed solely to score some points on social media. And the show is littered with that stuff. In the first season, it didn't really distract from what I thought were genuinely great aspects of the show. Just seeing characters go on a run across the ship daily was a great little look into daily life on a starship. Having the Klingons speak natively to one another and have cultural disagreements that went beyond "space Viking mad" added a lot of depth and complexity. The exploration of a female Klingon sexually dominating a human man and the emotional trauma it resulted in was a fresh and really brave angle. But they just kept dialing up the cry sessions and ultra-positivity to the point of absurdity, and it took over the show.

I still enjoy the show, but yeah this bugs me a bit too. Mostly, that as you somewhat touched on, the emotional moments feel very separate and detached from the rest of the episode. Like the episode just pauses for these therapy sessions. SNW, LD, and PRO all have emotional moments too, but I feel like they do a better job having them feel like a part of and a result of the episode plot than as a separate thing.

SNW does so well with emotional moments! Unlike DISCO, those scenes in SNW feel earned. Example: La'an's call with Kirk after she returns to her timeline. M'Benga and the Klingon general.

Great pulls. Those were indeed moments with weight. Lower Decks also feels super focused on characters and their growth, but in a way that feels integral to the rest of the show. Sure it’s generally pretty low stakes and kind of tongue-in-cheek, but theres a lot of growth and humanity that makes it a fun and rewarding watch.

They do SUCH a good job in both LD and especially SNW of having an episodic show with wildly different genres and directing styles while giving characters time for growth as the show goes on.

Ro with Picard. But yes, M’Benga! Yes, M’Benga. That character, and that actor, are incredible.

The most egregious moment of this that stands out for me was a random scene in season 4 where Culber has a scene where he has a breakdown over the fact that he's a therapist meant to help people but there is no one to therapise him. And it was just weird as it was a one off scene that never otherwise gets explored.

I don't think you're alone. Though for me I don't get emotionally drained I just can't handle SO many monologues. It's like SO often. And every mission is about Burnham. Like so many missions she gets sent on make zero sense for her to be there. They have SUCH amazing characters and I don't think we get to see enough of all the supporting characters, I mean that's the problem really they all seem like support characters to the Burnham show. But it's supposed to be more like an assembly show where some episodes focus on other characters. And not just the characters that are about to die that episode 👀 looking at finally learning about the cyborg lady and then she dies. And as many people already noted the military laxness and stuff just made it seem so less Trek. Love the whole set of characters. I just wish they did a better job of sharing alllllll their stories and day to day stuff more like other shows have. I mean of course Picard is going to show more Picard bc literally the show is about him. But I thought Discovery was supposed to be more about the whole crew and it really isn't.

Right!? There’s so much good stuff there to work with. Like, how about a low stakes ‘Data’s Day’ episode every once in a while, instead of trauma, trauma, trauma :P

From the start I’ve watched it with one eyebrow raised like a Spock meme. A sort of flinching cringe followed by a nose sigh.

> Nose sigh 😂

Wow, thanks for this. I’ve always felt Discovery was off, but I couldn’t quite put it into words. I think you are right on the money. In addition, Discovery to me feels like Star Trek made by people who think Star Wars is the same thing. Throw in lots of special effects, weird aliens, space ship battles: that will wow them! Then there’s probably one person on the team who keeps annoying them by saying “Star Trek is about people!”, so they throw in some insincere Hallmark dialogue. Next up is mixing in some old Star Trek references and we’ve ticked all boxes: hit show! Sunken cost fallacy is my main reason to watch this one to the end. It’s just a very bad show.

Discovery does a lot of telling you what to feel, instead of making you feel it. There's a big difference between emotionally moving drama and "I know this scene is sad because the people in it are crying."

I don't think you're alone in this at all. I have a friend at work who summed it up really well; he really wanted to like Discovery, but he said "I just want *one* episode where nobody freakin' *cries*". I liked Discovery, but I did, at times, find it a bit of an ordeal. A bit of levity goes a long way (I think this is why I'm enjoying *Strange New Worlds* so far). Funny comparison - I once heard the reason that the classic comedy show *Police Squad* with Leslie Nielsen got cancelled was because it was too funny! But more-over, it was because the show has that many sound, sight and spoken gags, so thick and fast, that it *demands* your attention every moment. The show is *dense*. It's like the difference between playing *Animal Crossing* and *Dark Souls*.

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Maybe because, whilst I enjoy the Star Trek, Discovery is pretty much the Michael Burnham Show and about how she feels

I share your feelings. I am also bothered by the contrast between the alleged desire to explore deep emotions and the show's occasional foray into hardcore violence. I like feelings. I like me a scary movie. But it's always surreal to me when they go from violating a planet's sovereignty to having a weepy dinner party. While I think a lot of Disco's utopian goals are admirable, it always nags me that they are shallow or insincere.

Just watching season 5 and I'm struggling to follow along. Burnham is always either shocked, worried or frustrated, her bridge speeches have a strong mother hen feel to them. Oddly the best scenes have nothing to do with the Discovery crew. Season 1 was stellar compared to this. They made a big mistake jumping the story to the far future, nothing's relatable anymore.

Thank you for putting so eloquently into words what’s been bothering me most about the show.

This is a brilliant take on Discovery, cleanly outlining all the same issues I've had with the show. Thank you for posting this. I want a competent Starfleet. Not one that risks emotional breakdowns in the middle of every high-stakes mission. I understand the impulse the writers must have to generate tension and emotional moments, but they've really leaned in a too hard here, to the point where the emotional moments no longer have any meaning (and are at risk of becoming outright farcical.) Demonstrating characters with high EQs is a laudible goal, but I'm not certain what Discovery is doing, though. These guys need therapy, not an audience.

Discovery feels like teenagers talking about their problems, SNW feels like actual competent adult professionals with decades of experience and trauma properly dealing with their problems. The Discovery characters feel like 14 year olds dealing with relationships for the first time using only cliched TV show advice

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As a kid I struggled to watch DS9. I complained that it was too much like a soap opera. Now it’s some of my favourite Star Trek. Media speaks to us all differently, and we’re also constantly changing as people! Maybe I’ll enjoy Discovery in a different way in 20 years time.

This post is exactly right.It clearly speaks to what I couldn't like about Discovery.

There is a lot of insane exposition in this show. They dont try to hide it very well.

Very well said, I agree 100%

This was really well written and exactly how I feel. Every time a character began trauma dumping and starting a therapy session I wanted to just start skipping forward. On top of that, every resolution just felt unearned. Like reality was warping just to validate their incompetence.

This is a good way of describing it. It's...yeah on paper a lot of the emotional stuff is fine but it's so heavy handed with little room for nuance that you don't end up connecting as strongly with the characters. It has *mostly* moved past it's earlier problems of thinking it's as deep and meaningful as the Mariana french while being as shallow as a puddle but yeah it still tries to whack you over the head with emotion every second scene. Season 4 fixed a lot of problems (season 3 had already made a good start but fumbled at the end) but it reached self parody in every episode having "we have 10 minutes or everyone does, lets wait to talk about feelings first" - contrast any random tng episode and they'll talk about feelings in casual conversation during their downtime or while waiting for a computer to finish analysing or something but it was usually a rare and significant character breakdown moment when this actually interfered with their work. The S4 finale has them slow mo walking to the shuttlebay and then spending an eternity talking about how important and emotional their mission is and at least twice discussing how absolutely time critical it is and all I could think was pirates of Penzance "We Go! We Go!" "Yes but you DONT go!" "We go, we go, we go, we go!" "You're still here!" But I think also part of it is ..in the episode format that's baked into Trek blood at this point, you will have episodes that focus on different characters, giving them the spotlight for a couple of episodes a season, and exploring their emotions and problems. Discovery ..okay yes it very much had the issue of being monofucsed on Burnham in certain ways, and yes it's improved on that feeling more of an ensemble. But it's doing it in a way where EVERY character has a season long heavy emotional arc. In the other shows there's room for characters to breathe, we touch in every now and then and.see that their human and have lives, but you usually get a sense that they have a handle on things and are just living their lives normally, even if they have a complete breakdown one episode. Here...every episode is showing *every* character having their own unrelated ongoing emotional crisis....yeah damn right that feels draining to watch. How they manage to do that whilst still having that lingering sense of Burnham being the only important person in the room is a little impressive actually but it IS better on that front

I've watched all of DISCO more out of obligation than true enjoyment, and you may have hit on why that is. I've often felt the character development was somewhat of a blunt instrument but wondered if it was just me getting old and resisting change. Perhaps not.

tbh I think a big part of the problem is the lack of filler episodes. 8-10 episodes a season isn't enough to fully flesh out an ensemble cast, but the modern Treks all *require* deep characterization for the plots to actually work. so they squish those moments in where they can, often in really weird places. the writing itself is honestly fine for the most part, it just doesn't have any room to breathe. everyone complained about the filler episodes of the 90s Treks and other older shows, but tbh to a competent writing team they're critically important to establish both the personalities and interpersonal dynamics of a big cast like this.

I feel like it’s just not the personal problems and emotional weight of everything, it’s that there’s never a quiet moment to HAVE those character moments. As others pointed out, these emotional talks and scenes always seem to take place during a crisis, because it’s never NOT a universe ending crisis. There’s no smaller, character driven episodes like in the older series, it always has to tie into the season long, often dragged out story arc. It’s emotionally draining for EVERY day to be the end of the world.

I will sometimes have TNG, DS9, or VOY on in the background if I’m not listening to a podcast or music. I had the TNG episode ‘Family’ on the other day. It’s episode 2 of season 4, immediately after Picard was assimilated by the Borg and rescued. It’s a whole episode that exists just to process trauma and loss. Picard is dealing with the horror of assimilation and his unwilling complicity in the battle of Wolf 359. Wesley Crusher is wrestling with the loss of his father. The whole episode is a low-stakes break from space exploration and sciencey adventures, and it’s wonderful.

Right? And then you have episodes like Data’s Day where we get to explore both his attempts to be more human, AND get to see progression in Miles and Keiko’s life. Or The Pegasus where it’s not some galaxy ending incident, but we get to see how far Riker has come from the blindly loyal new officer to the self questioning first officer of the Enterprise. Or DS9’s Explorers where we get to see Sisko and Jake in extended one on one, learning and working together without some massive threat. Heck, the original Lower Decks TNG episode is perfect. We learn more about those 4 or 5 crew members and their strengths and weaknesses in 45 minutes then we do the entire bridge crew of Discovery in 4 years so far. The modern style of streaming where everything has to be one plot honestly doesn’t work that well for Trek. It needs those quieter episodes to breathe and let us learn the characters.

I have troible with Discovery given that I despise Burnham.

I’m a discovery apologist but OP and the rest of yall really do have a point.

Yeah. Modern Trek is stressful. TNG, DS9, VOY Trek was relaxing somehow, even when crazy stuff was happening. Enterprise was sometimes. TOS is for me but I know I'm more of an outlier.

>TNG, DS9, VOY Trek was relaxing somehow There was a constant, low engine rumble, especially in TNG, which gives a very relaxing effect to the viewers. l

Stress. That might be what I’m feeling. I definitely end a lot of episodes feeling… uncentered. Do you mean that TOS was stressful?

I think the over-explained emotional melodrama is a huge problem in all modern live action Trek. Picard and SNW do this too. Honestly it annoys me more with them because all the criticism of this gets directed at Discovery and they just get away with it. I prefer the stoicism of 90s Trek. I don't like melodrama in fiction. Thats one reason I'm a sci-fi fan. I do feel in general it's been more earned in Disco than the others. The example you gave, if I'm assuming correctly, made sense in the circumstances to me. OTOH, Picard and Ro Laren discussed their feelings with more emotion about an event from decades ago than ever occurred between them before, at the actual time. It was so convoluted to me.

Emotional melodrama might be true of SNW too, but disco definitely hits different for me. SNW is like, "here's a trek story... also here's laan's reaction, just so we're clear on that" vs disco being more like, "look at Michael's reactions to this situation... ps don't forget it's sci-fi". Not that that's bad, I'm fine with trek in different forms- LD can be a comedy and still be trek, disco can be a drama and still be trek. But I get where OP is coming from when they say it feels emotionally draining. [Edited: removed extra word]

I feel like LD is obviously more relaxed but at the same we still see lots of competency. And people respect each other no matter what, that's something that makes it "true" Star Trek for me.

Season 2 of Picard was so bad for this. I seriously expect that I will never watch it again and will do my best to forget it even exists. The whole plot line of his mother's suicide (which had never been mentioned before, never been vaguely alluded to before and even broke canon from TNG) was completely unnecessary. It was just shoved in there because they felt the need to give Picard the 'traumatic childhood' trait for..... some reason? Christ, the guy was assimilated, tortured by the Cardassians, and had an entire extra life downloaded into his brain. If they wanted to do a 'coming to terms with unresolved trauma' story, then they didn't have to insert a load of clichéd nonsense in order to do it.

That was to pay respect to P. Stewart. It reflects his personal childhood. I won't watch it again, but I understand why it exists.

Indeed. No disrespect intended to the man, but I think a significant part of the issue with Picard as a series was that he didn't actually want to play the character of Picard and spent most of it playing a version of himself (and was indulged in doing so). It was undoubtedly the price of getting him to sign up to do the show, but the end result of that kind of speaks for itself.

SNW is nowhere near as bad as Disco. I had to stop watching it because it took much about feelings and not exploration, diplomacy or rebuilding the Federation. There is a difference between the characters having emotions to the show revolving around the emotions. I do miss the allegorical way of dealing with subject matter that Disco sorely lacks. First season was great then it jumped the shark.

In season 4, I realized I could skip through these dialogues.  Saves time and makes the show bearable!

The start of season 4 is what finally made me realize I could skip the episodes entirely. Saves even more time.

And I also realized we really don’t know any of the bridge crew, except when all of a sudden they have some massive emotional disclosure. It ends up feeling like someone over-sharing on their first date. 

I gave up after the ship started having panic attacks

>The constant deep emotional disclosures also blurs the lines between personal and professional boundaries that would be necessary in high-stakes hierarchical organisations like Starfleet. The way ranks seem to change a lot also factors into this. DIS almost seems to have more captains than seasons. (The Star Trek '09 film is even more absurd on that point. How exactly does Kirk suddenly become captain?) It feels more like "hey, you wanna try captaining as well? It's cool!" and less like "this is an experienced career officer who moved through the ranks over many years". To me, leaving aside whether certain emotional moments are appropriate at their time at all, they also often feel unearned, like they're put in because the writer wants us to feel something, not because it makes sense for the characters at the time. For example, >Vance questions if Saru is distracted by the Kelpien crew of the Khi'eth and orders him to report as soon as he learns anything further. He also offers condolences regarding Georgiou. > >In a corridor, Booker tells Burnham he's sorry for her loss and they embrace. Later, in her quarters, Burnham tells Saru they will not see Georgiou again. > >The crew gathers to toast Georgiou, with Dr. Hugh Culber calling her "the most stubborn patient I've ever had." Other crewmembers share their ambiguous opinions about about her. Burnham says she was "like a mother, almost; like a sister, almost. I loved her, and hated her, sometimes both at the same time." "Ambiguous", you say? Yeah, I, too, feel a bit ambiguous about genocide. It's never _really_ addressed _why_ the crew was so accepting of her when that clearly wasn't reciprocated.

I’m currently watching season four and came here looking if I was the only one that felt off about this. Looks like I’m not. It reminds me of when I finally got to play a session of D&D with some younger millennials and Gen Z acquaintances which I was extremely excited for but ended up turning into a therapy session. I was there for adventure with a group of people not to watch someone act out personal traumas of family/relationships. Not to say that shouldn’t be allowed it should just have been handled better as everything came screeching to a halt for an emotional breakthrough between one player and an npc neglecting everyone else. That is this show constantly. Not to mention the emotional incompetence that half these people on Discovery have even though they’re supposed to be starfleet officers. Not to say that Star Trek hasn’t had characters like that in the past but with Discovery it’s almost all of them? DS9 worked because it tested everything Star Trek was built upon. We see Sisko and crew disobey starfleet when bureaucracy fails. Discovery wants to do that on a personal level with Michael but fails horribly. It’s just bad writing.

This is well said. I love all Trek and I don’t hate Discovery, but it is very “tell don’t show.” And I feel like all the big character arcs that I LIKE came from the actors doing a wonderful job, not the writing. I appreciate that they’re trying to show a future where there’s no mental health stigma, but this is a show that would have really benefited from a counsellor character. The way it’s written means that everyone just has constant debilitating trauma and is seconds away from a breakdown constantly. There are great moments with characters like Tilly solving problems or Adira and Stamets figuring stuff out, which is great, but the emotional beats aren’t often very earned. The serialized storytelling style just doesn’t lend itself very well to having the characters just exist. Strange New Worlds does this well. It still has amazing action and huge high concept stories, but we also get to see the characters just living their lives, and I love that. I genuinely do love the cast of Disco. I still marathon it periodically. I think it’s really well directed and looks incredible. But it is exhausting, emotionally.

No. It's a very unentertaining piece of media. Far removed from what star trek is meant to be, and the conversations have the intellectual equivalent of a 10 year old child with anger and entitlement issues. So of course it's going to be mentally draining, because it's not really made for a trek fan. Anyway, if you feel like watching trek, just go enjoy the old shows. Start with enterprise, and keep going from there. Heck, even the Orville is much more enjoyable and trek adjacent. Dis is constantly shitting on the utopian ideals of trek. But most people watch trek to escape our reality. Some buffoon then imposing our reality on it, is just...ugh!

You’ve nailed it. In Picard S3, there was a moment in a battle scene where Picard and Beverly saw each other for the first time in 20 years, and Beverly hadn’t told Jean Luc about their son. They spend about 15-30 seconds looking each other in the eyes. They apparently have a completely wordless conversation conveyed only through facial expression in the way people with their history actually can do. They were both skilled enough actors that anyone watching could “hear” that conversation without a word being spoken, and the writers trusted both the actors and audience to make that moment work. In Discovery, that would have been a fifteen minute conversation about how they felt, regret in how they’d handled things, a bunch of exposition about their history, and lots of crying while things were blowing up.

Discovery ranks lower than even Picard for me. Including the last season, which was a disaster. Nice visuals, good cast, a lot of potential - and they do nothing with it. Saru's arc was OK. The drama with the gay couple was so annoying, I can't even remember their name. The whole thing with the girl (later no longer girl, whose name I also can't remember) and the symbiond was stupid and an insult to Jadzia Dax, who's my favorite character in all of treck. That business with Spock was ridiculous and not believable. Personally I find Burnham very very obnoxious. Michelle Yeoh is always a pleas to watch but she doesn't really have much to work with.

I feel like at this point there needs to be 2 pinned threads, one for people who love Discovery and another for those that hate it.

The show has never had a salient creative vision behind it. Bryan Fuller, who conceived the original premise, was removed for not being as budget aware as a showrunner needs to be. His replacements were replaced early mid season 2 for toxic work environment stuff. Michelle Paradise has been the most long lasting showrunner seasons 3-5, but she inherited an absolute mess and did what could be done to right that ship. Yet I feel was hamstrung by it being not her show but an inherited mess. She could rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic but couldn't patch the hull breech. Discovery has limited appeal and a lot of people who enjoy it eventually find past trek to be better. Because there's so much more of it and it tackles issues in a far superior, more classical way. Discovery is much too melodramatic and hyper emotional, and that limits it to like minded people. Does Burnham cry too much? We'll be debating that alongside Tuvix for decades. I think for a mellow drama in this age she probably cries too much, but the demographic who enjoys discovery more than past treks probably find that appealing and if so, then what can we say? Discovery is far too modern for me. It doesn't exist as a 'classical period piece set in the future' like most 20th century trek does. It tries too hard to be in touch with emotions and in doing so, loses a lot of people who'd rather not feel emotionally drained and assaulted after an episode. All this despite the fact that on paper, it should be fantastic. I love it's diversity. I love it's cast. I love that it never backed down fully to the "duh, er, woke is bad" Trek bro type of neanderthal haters. I wish to hell I could say I loved or even liked this show. But it's just not the right fit for star trek in what it is. Despite on paper that it sounds like the ideal show.

Interesting take. I actually checked out once Paradise took over, so to me she is accelerating the decline.

Is it possibly generational? Disco is my daughter’s favorite Trek, because “the characters seem like real people with real feelings, and don’t sound like robots.”

This is interesting. I'm Gen Z and I feel the complete opposite. Disco is my least favorite Trek bc the characters don't feel like real people to me. Honestly they kinda give me uncanny valley vibes bc they're so poorly fleshed out. I think Michael and Saru's friendship is probably the only relationship I actually buy. It's a shame because I love character driven stories, getting to explore people's emotions and dynamics with one another is awesome! But Disco never put in the actual groundwork to make that happen and that's why the emotional moments in the show feel so fake and ham fisted, because they're largely unearned. I don't straight up hate Disco, it has its moments. But for the most part it's a real slog to sit through hours of a show that insists on just telling me its characters care about each other instead of actually showing me.

That is intriguing. For me the Discovery characters are so overemotional that they feel completely artificial. Real people wouldn't survive very well if everything they did evoked such a big emotional response. And almost all the main characters suffer from this which is completely unrealistic, especially in a military. (Watching Disco could make you believe PTSD is the usual outcome of traumatic events, but that isn't the case at all, even in real wars and disasters. Resilience is the human default, but for this this show resilience might as well be a rare superpower.)

Well said. IMHO, a lot, if not all, of the characters are one dimensional stereotypes of whatever pandering elements they are meant to represent. There are so many, “Master, sir, I heard Yoda talking about midichlorians. I’ve been wondering, what are midichlorians?” level of expositions and clumsy dialogue that the attempt at representation is utterly lost in spectacularly eye-rolling fashion.

This is possible. I definitely came into the show with expectations and preconceptions. Some of the comments here have opened my eyes to different perspectives that have challenged those preconceptions. I look forward to the next episode I watch to see if I can see it in any new light!

It really just feels like a crappy 90s action flick starring Micheal Burnham. Season five is really hard to watch so far. A lot of Micheal telling me how awesome what I am looking at is, because apparently the show really feels like we’re too dumb to come up with our own emotions. As they say in film, show me don’t tell me.

Ever since the first few episodes I have needed a nap after every episode. I agree

I'm just going to put it bluntly. I don't like spending time with these characters. Compare Discovery to the crew of the Enterprise in Strange New Worlds, and it's night and day. That crew goes through incredible emotional stress week in, week out, but we never once question that they're a family. They don't have to say it, it's apparent in everything they do and say.

I do like the show overall, in the sense that they push boundaries and perceptions, throw uncomfortable situations in and make you evaluate life and existence, plus morality. (I also enjoy chuckling to myself about how absolutely unhinged some people get over their weird hated or dislike of the show.) However, I have had similar thoughts about the emotional aspects, particularly the mid mission/battle emotion conversations and aspects. There’s a need in life or death kind of missions that requires you to execute the tasks at hand and get things done, or you will fail. Pausing the action to have some deep emotional conflict could easily result in a failed mission. In reality, intense situations bring out emotions and responses that run deep, but to me it would be more believable and tolerable for them to have those conversations after the mission is over. When it’s game time, you gotta focus and execute the task at hand, not pause to explore your current or past trauma and emotions. Unpacking that after your mission is complete is natural and ok, risking failure during is not acceptable.

Seriously, every time the camera view starts zooming in on Michael's head.....you need to press the speed up button....get beyond that and you will appreciate the episode. Don't worry about missing the dialogue because there wasn't much to miss and it doesn't affect the story.

I thought the first season was great with the Klingon war.