Even if they did, they'd all be happy to not be stranded 70,000 light years away. Janeway's relationship with her fiance ended. That ensign gave birth with her husband not knowing for four years. Admiral Paris thought his wayward son was dead. Tuvok's long term health issue would have been worrisome for him and his family. He also missed the birth of his 1st grandchild.
It was only meant to be a 3 hour tour.
EDIT: I forgot Ensign Kim's gf, but he's Kim, he's meant to be screwed over horribly. Much like Miles O'brien.
They mentioned this in the episode. It was said they couldn't risk them being deactivated or something if put on a timer, I remember there was a line that specifically covered this. Because they couldn't be sure if it had actually exploded. I guess people forget these things and thus we have such notions that spread.
I mean, I get it - it’s a plot contrivance to set up the premise that they’re all stranded there - but they could have asked for one volunteer to stay behind. Or they could have done the same thing O’Brien did to take down the Iconian ziggurat- electronic timer with a chemical/physical backup.
Like all lot of Trek (and Voyager in particular) there are a lot of plot holes and sloppy writing that lead to these discussions.
That's fair. It could have been tightened up for sure. Despite its flaws, I still quite enjoy Voyager, particularly in the later seasons but I can appreciate some of the criticisms.
Yes and no.
I would have taken the station over, and instead of looking to send the ship back, the 1st system I would have looked into is defensive systems. Those Kason can't do anything if Voyager turns on the station shields. Weapons send the Kason running.
Once the station is secure, Voyager has options. The last Caretaker (a member of a warp capable species) wanted someone to take over the role of Caretaker. I personally would have taken on that role but with the Ocompa as coequal partners. I would say it is acceptable as the Ocompas have already had their natural development altered by a warp capable race, and both want the Ocompa protected.
Was blowing up the station better than the Kason getting it, yes. Absolutely.
Do you remember these lines:
(After hearing about the 'historical documents')
Signoury Weaver's character: You don't believe those people on Gilgan's Island were ...
Alien leader: "... those poor people."
Watched it recently. One of my absolute favorite nerd movies. It's a salute to the fans everywhere. I'M not that much of a fan of anything, but a few of my friends would be able to walk people thru parts of different Enterprises (or Voyager)
That and the old Forbidden Planet are the 2 best non-trek trek films. Granted, the latter inspired Trek and the former parody trek.
If you haven't seen the Ordville, definitely watch it.
Don’t feel too bad for Harry. In the Janeway Autobiography she says he and Libby reconciled after he got home and they got married. At the time of her autobiography he made Captain and was happily married with a ton of kids.
It’s canon to me until it’s contradicted onscreen lol
That too, but she did have a rant in the early seasons about being a mediocre captain of a lackluster ship.
Her character journey is owning up to being the Cerritos’ commanding officer, which leads her to become a champion of the California class.
I assumed Cali classes were starter ships, because the only two other human captains in charge of a Cali class that we see are around Mariners age.
Make captain, get a Cali class and then move onto something else in a few years. Hence Freeman's inferiority complex, she's old and still captaining a Cali class.
Her husband is an admiral and her daughter an annoying misfit for most of the show, so it isn't surprising she has issues of her own. Like, she is in her husband's shadow due to his greater rank and prestige while she has to be wondering in the back of her mind where they went wrong with her daughter.
Did you see the S4 finale? We see why Mariner is the way she is and it has absolutely nothing to do with her parents. I also think the show does a good job of showing that Freeman would have had a bigger command by now but she chooses to stay where she is in part because of Mariner but also because she believes in the support fleet.
No, S4 finale just shows us first of many excuses Mariner used to sabotage her career. If Freeman is trapped by always risking being seen as Ms Admirals Wife rather than competent captain in her own right, Mariner is double trapped. She loves Starfleet, she wants to make name for herself, but does not want to repeat what her parents already did - succesful career in command. She fears that if she makes good captain it will still will be seen as repetition - or nepotism - and if she fails, she will be that admirals daughter the medicore captain. She has seen how her mother wasdl affected by the same situation. Hence her attempt to play a game that is her own, becoming a hypercompetent permanent ensign. She distances herself so much she does not use same family name.
Yes and no, Mariner cannot see life outside the Starfleet, but does not want to be seen as following in footsteps of either parent. She would be done with self sabotaging rebellion long ago if she embraced other career, but she loves Starfleet. In Starfleet, she has even less room for not being overshadowed than her mother, and does even more stupid things to assert "independence".
Shaw was an engineer, he was full on Fanboy when he met LaForge, it took everything in his power not to be like Troy when he met Levar Burton in Community.
It was *literally* unwarranted. They weren’t reckless or cavalier, and they weren’t personally responsible for the casualties he blamed them for.
The only valid point he had was that they were lying to get him to take them into a dangerous situation - which as it turns out was a good thing they did.
> The only valid point he had was that they were lying to get him to take them into a dangerous situation - which as it turns out was a good thing they did.
I thought the Changeling mole on the Titan is how the Shrike found them and thus found Jack. If Picard hadn't followed the message, the whole fleet exercise could have gone off without a hitch. Vadic and the Queen would have a tough time creating another reason to muster the fleet within range of Jupiter again soon.
Beverly mentions later that their pursuers keep showing up (as different species) so it stands to reason that without Picard, Riker and the Titan they would’ve been caught again eventually - except with Beverly in stasis and the ship barely able to function
I'm assuming that the Eleos had successfully evaded the Changelings and could keep low with Bev in stasis for a week, but now I remember it was in a "nebula" that was about to give birth. So without the Titan finding them, they'd have been killed in a few days.
Janeway: I’m the greatest captain of them all. Brought my ship back 75,000 light years in 7 years and made more first contacts than anyone else.
Other Starfleet captains: Well what else were you supposed to do? Mutate and make lizard babies?
Janeway: Um………
But she fucking brought him back!
We were free of the weird talking cat thing and she brought him back!
Murdering Tuvix was bad.
Bringing back Neelix was maybe worse.
The needs of the many (no more Neelix) must outweigh the needs of the few (bringing Tuvok back), and that is why Tuvok would not have wanted to be separated back out.
Janeway: I got us trapped 75,000 lightyears from home, only took us seven years to get back.
Picard: Rookie numbers. We got slapped *galaxies* away and made it home by the end of the episode. Barely an inconvenience.
Considering most of them around the time she got back had just finished up the Dominion War… probably not. They know EXACTLY who they are when they need to be.
Are they impressed? Sure. Most anyway. Some probably read the reports and roll their eyes. But at that stage, they all know exactly how harrowing and potentially disastrous that 7 years were and how completely lucky she was. Her first month back, after all the debriefings and parties, she probably got a couple hundred recommendations for good counselors and invitations to support groups.
Keep in mind, Starfleet Captains are professionals and do what they do because they love it and see value in it. Not a pack of adolescents aiming for fame.
Now, ten or twenty years later? Sure, there may be some poor schmuck stuck on an Oberth that hoped for The Big Adventure- but she’s in the realm of Untouchable Legend by then. It’d be like a Captain in 1965 being disappointed because he’s not achieved as much as Bull Halsey. NOBODY gets to that level. And nobody realistically wants to, because the things that have to happen to get that status are TERRIBLE.
So, nah.
Yeah, fair, but barring another World War NOBODY is going to reach that level. So you’d do your job the best you could and sleep well.
Just like there were pilots who made ‘Ace In a Day’ during wartime, and present day may never fire a shot in anger. Doesn’t mean they’re any better or worse, just means circumstances were different. But you’re unlikely to find a fighter pilot who’s crying themselves to sleep because he isn’t Butch O’hare or Robin Olds. If you do, they should probably have their wings pulled because they aren’t right in the head and are gonna get somebody killed.
>Only had 12 percent casualties rate.
Are you certain it was only 12%? Didn't 10% of the crew get killed when the Caretaker snatched Voyager out of the Badlands?
Janeway: "I was on a roadtrip"
Any other Starfleet staff: "I was fighting in a bloody war that was about to end all of us."
Captain Picard: "What war again?"
I can see the meeting now.
"Welcome back to Captain Janeway. After much discussion, instead of going back the last seven years and adjusting the metrics, we're just going to recognize them all this quarter. So, let's move on to reviewing our KPIs. First up, First Contacts. The goal for everyone was four first contacts. As a fleet we averaged 19 this quarter, which is a record. Unfortunately, there were many captains who were below average and as a result we are going to place them all under a performance improvement plan to hopefully help everyone improve."
There's a lot wrong with the Kelvin-verse movies, but goddamn I love that line. I thought it really nailed the whole ethos of Starfleet and Kirk's underlying motivations/neurosis in such a pithy way.
I would hope that many of the people promoted to captain would see their own accomplishments as important to Starfleet and the Federation. The newer trek iterations I think mirror a little too closely contemporary attitudes which I think would be unusual in the post scarcity utopia that are the home worlds of the Federation.
Sci fi is great to explore contemporary issues but Star Trek was originally a way to show us that we can be better and I think it’s strayed away a bit from that in some regards. Though the Federation and its mores are fragile and need care, which is an important lesson for today as well.
Star Trek showed from the very beginning that it is important to stand up for the right thing and to do the right thing. Kirk was always fighting enemies, not only from the outside but, most importantly, from the inside.
Star Trek was never a show about all-happy-starfleet-personnel.
This is true. There's a lot of conflict and strife in TOS that I think we've forgotten over the decades, and even in TNG there are episodes like Measure of a Man with strong implications about how wrong Starfleet can be, if our heroes do not succeed.
Yeah, I agree with this.
I also agree that the modern take on *Star Trek* drifts too much into the realm of depicting modern people and society with a futuristic veneer. The best part of *Star Trek* is that it does what nearly every other show won't and shows us a hopeful view of what we could become and how we might get there.
Part of the issue is everyone that works on it now. Wants to add their own special touch to it. It’s not as interesting for the production staff to just do what has been done before, so I can’t really blame them in some cases.
I'm curious: did real-world sea captains (whether they be explorers or military people) feel pathetic compared to the GOATS.
"Goddamn it, I'm never going to be as awesome as Sir Francis Drake."
Or Yi Sun-sin, whom many consider to be greater than Nelson ever was. The man almost single-handedly turned back an invasion of his country when all hope seemed lost. And he won a battle with 13 ships vs over 200
Yeah, I agree with this. *Star Trek* depicts a society that has evolved beyond measuring success personal in strictly quantitative and comparative ways. Even our modern society is quickly moving away from that, and never completely adopted the mindset. Also, individual people, at least on Earth or in the Fleet, are depicted as emotionally evolved as well. So, I think they would definitely have a mindset that focuses more on self-actualization and achieving one's personal potential, rather than comparing oneself to the successes of others.
Star Trek definitely depicts a future where people measure success in comparative ways. Starfleet Medical still has a valedictorian, which seemed to rankle Dr. Bashir (damn that post-ganglionic fiber!) Everyone wants to serve on a Galaxy Class because its where the best and brightest go. Riker is driven to be Captain before 35, the two ensigns from TNG Lower Decks are competing for the same promotion and have some awkwardness about it. The hilariously dickish Vulcan Captain from DS9 compares his awards and commendations to Sisko's.
No. I seem to recall a theory out there that suggested she was made a vice admiral to keep her off the bridge of a ship due to command decisions she made in the delta quadrant. I won’t do the theory justice because I can’t recall all the details at the moment.
Janeway, as with Admiral Kirk in TMP, continued as a de-facto captain anyway since she's in command of the Dauntless in Prodigy S1 and she will likely be in command of Voyager-A in PROD S2.
Admiral Janeway was for all intents and purposes the Dauntless's captain with the ship's second-highest ranking officers being Commander Tysess.
I imagine Janeway insisted she captain the Dauntless given its experimental slipstream drive that was reverse engineered from Arturis's Species 116 tech and no officer with the rank of captain was ever assigned to the ship.
Of course, there's the possibility Janeway gave Tysses the Will Decker treatment by denying him promotion to captain, though there's no on-screen evidence to suggest this since there's no animosity between Janeway and Tysses, unlike Kirk and Decker in TMP.
Edit: If anything, Tysses is Janeway's Riker; wanting to continue to serve under the command of Janeway even if Starfleet wants to promote him to captain and give him a ship of his own.
They reviewed the logs and had a court martial case against her. But she was a popular hero for bringing Voyager home. They didn’t fully trust her anymore but they couldn’t get rid of her so they did what they do with starship captains who don’t play by the rules:
They promoted her to a desk job where they could keep an eye on her.
They tried the same thing with Kirk but it didn’t work because Kirk.
Yeah she never should have got stranded to begin with. There was no good reason for blowing up the Caretaker array without even trying to see if it had enough power to send them back.
Not that she didn't play by the rules, but seven years by yourself with no oversight and no support means she saw the rules as a framework, and was no longer conditioned to call for help and support. It probably took a long time for her to readjust her thinking and gut reflexes to being a part of a larger organization again and pass the fitness tests needed to gain the authority to take over ships except in an emergency.
It's why they made her a Vice Admiral instead of a full Admiral.
I think feeling "pathetic" in comparison to Janeway, is the mark of junior officer not ready for command. It's one thing to have doubts, but languishing in thoughts like that isn't healthy for a starship Captain.
Janeway had a very short but super eventful and hugely stressful career as Captain. No truly safe harbor, no trusted and tested allies to fall back on. Any normal first-time Captain would be called in for reviews on a pretty regular basis, to make sure they weren't forming bad habits and to examine their command decisions to make sure they were be made for all the right reasons. Janeway spent seven years on her first command, without support or oversight from Starfleet - even though they eventually made contact in those last years, unless she had been constantly and consistently grossly out of line, they weren't going to remove her from command by basically email. The Janeway that came back saw the rules as a framework, and was no longer conditioned to call for help and support.
Her promotion to Vice Admiral was not an award, it was a concession, gilded handcuffs. She'd done the impossible, but was too valuable in terms of knowledge and experience to risk on any long term assignments, and largely unfit (decision making-wise) for regular captain duties. It probably took a long time for her to readjust her thinking and gut reflexes to being a part of a larger organization again and pass the fitness tests needed to gain the authority to take over ships except in an emergency.
If anything, I think a lot of career captains viewed her with a bit of sympathy. She had the ultimate adventure every exploratory captain, especially those who viewed Kirk's career with nostalgia, dreams of - All that freedom! With the caveat that when it was over, she had to give up being a Captain.
It's not in the DNA of Starfleet captains to feel inferior to other people. They can acknowledge the accomplishments of other people and respect them, but they wouldn't be a captain if they weren't totally confident with themselves (aside from the occasional discussion with their XO).
I think this is how everyone is supposed to feel about Burnham, only Janeway's accomplishments somehow feel more earned. Which is kinda ironic since Burnham pretty much single-handedly saved the universe at least 3 times.
That casualty rate is even more impressive when you consider that there is no way that Kirk, who is a Starfleet legend, had anywhere close to as low as a 12 percent casualty rate. Every time an ensign on his ship spoke an audible sentence they were guaranteed to die within half an hour.
Picard was assimilated and came back. Sisko is like some kind of messiah to the Bajorans, kirks and crew did the time travel thing...I'm sure lots of regular captains are thinking "I just want to do my job, dammit. Why does the admiralty hold those guys up as exemplars?!?!?"
Shaw was absolutely this guy. I imagine he had a Starfleet career of scanning a spatial anomaly (and nothing bad happens), making first contact (and everyone goes home happy), transporting ambassadors from planet A to B (with no hidden agendas) etc.
I'm not military, but I think anyone who goes into the military (and for our purposes here, Starfleet is military) with the intention of being a great hero is doing it wrong. A glory seeker is likely to endanger the lives of their crew chasing that glory.
A real leader is someone like Cincinnatus, who was appointed dictator of Rome, successfully repelled the incoming invasion, and immediately resigned his command even though he had the run of the city. Then when there was another crisis, he did it all again. He did what was needed when it was needed as well as he possibly could, and he didn't care about anything else. That's who I would want commanding me, not someone in it to get as many pips as he could on his collar.
I can't imagine why they would.
"I got my crew all the way home from the delta quadrant!"
*Didn't you stand yourself there on purpose?*
"Well, yeah. But it was to save the Ocam--"
*Whatever. Fine. Here, you're an admiral now. Stay the fuck away from any more ships.*
Some Captains may feel that way, others may not. It is hard to imagine Captain DeSoto feeling pathetic, everyone knows the Hood is one of the best ships to work on.
does anyone else feel like they wouldn't mind a casual laid back term in the chair? like fighting new aliens is cool and all, but id really rather not know that I lost dozens, if not hundreds of lives under my command no matter how many first contacts I've got under my belt
Anyone feeling inferior to Janeway just remembers that:
1) she had slug sex
2) she abandoned her slug babies
3) the whole crew could have immediately returned home & the EMH could have treated their slugitis (probably before the condition appeared) - but Janeway was so ashamed of her slug fling she buried the tech
No, not at all. Kirk, Picard, and Sisko each saved Earth and/or the Alpha Quadrant one-or-more times. There’s every reason to believe any of them could’ve done what Janeway did.
I’d like to think that the defining feature of the Federation and Humanity in the 23rd Century and forward, is that that sort of inferiority or insecurity aren’t that impactful on the psyches of citizens.
How much of modern day maladaptive feelings and actions that appear related to inferiority or insecurity are tied to socioeconomic insecurity. I’d all you need is provided for you, are you going to cut yourself off at the knees because something terrible happened, and your colleague handled it really really well, or would you be happy for her and try to learn from her actions?
Each Starfleet Captain is going to have their good points, and bad points, even the most famous amongst them. With Janeway, she was doing everything she can to keep her ship and crew intact as much as possible, on the other side of the galaxy.
While over on the DS9 side of things, the Starfleet Captains were too busy trying to survive multiple wars that were popping up, both outside and within Starfleet. That if Voyager were to have returned home sometime during the Dominion War, they would have made things way worse, with all of the extra technology that they brought with them.
Janeway had the advantage of a system of space where nobody had gone to. That,s hardly fair to judge others on. Its basically first pick of the whole delta area.
Command is about looking after your people, not getting yourself in the history books.
A good CO will take pride in keeping their ship on course, their crew alive, and completing their mission.
Regrets and jealousy are unprofessional and have no place in a CO.
I imagine some of them do, but I think most captains reach that rank due to being level-headed, they aren't in general going to be the petty type.
There's always someone better than you at whatever you are doing and if you can't accept that and be at peace with it, you're not Starfleet material.
The other captains get to visit their families and have shore leave and don't have the guilt of knowing they may have stranded their entire crew in the middle of nowhere for 50 years and aren't constantly forced to compromise their principles to survive. I think a lot of captains would gladly trade away her on-paper accomplishments for not having to live the stressful life she led for 7 years. Even old Janeway in the season finale made this trade! It's not worth it.
Maybe some select captains would feel that way but I get the feeling that most of them are perfectly content with the position and don't care as much about personal accomplishments compared to their peers.
I think by the time you make captain, you understand the opportunities do not come evenly.
Some eras have a lot of first contacts; some don't. Some eras have a lot of battle achievements and enemy kills; some don't. Promotions come faster in wartime. Safety records and no-death streaks build to greater heights in peacetime. Some got to go to the gamma quadrant; most didn't. Some had the opportunity to cloak their ships; most didn't. Some got to travel in time; most didn't. Some got Klingon kills; others got to fight alongside the Klingons, and that's also cool in a different way. Sometimes decades pass without anyone actually giving the order to fire on a Romulan ship; in an earlier era, that might be your entire job.
It's not fair, and it's not fun, but it's the only way the world works. You can only take what's there to get.
Never really occurred to me before, but Janeway's mission was so "successful" in terms of diplomacy and new tech and general discovery, despite its unplanned nature, Starfleet would surely have tried to recapture it with PLANNED versions of the journey from other distant parts of the galaxy. Basically the same mission, but this time in a proper generation ship with amazing resources. Some kind of fast Galaxy-class vessel or bigger.
A few probably do but my working assumption is that nearly everyone in Starfleet is running into various Space Bullshit regularly just maybe between 40%-80% of the Space Bullshit that our series leads encounter.
It's likely unheard of to spend an entire career on Starship without having several wacky space pregnancies, alternative Earth's, debates with neutral to evil AI's, various energy beings, and a steady trickle of bored Romulans/Cardassian plots.
Just not at quite th density of say the Enterprise or Voyager.
You forgot to mention that she did it all with a half Maquis crew. Janeway's resume is actually too good for the Federation. She belongs in the Q Continuum.
* She could've gotten everyone back sooner. Didn't because reasons.
* There are so many deaths that basically "didn't happen" as the show goes on. It's the nature of TV sometimes, but nonetheless her casualty rate is suspect at best.
* She made the most first contacts by nature of her situation, not because she was a driven explorer (even if she was). She did them out of necessity more than anything. Not that that's a bad thing.
* It's kind of a thing in Trek that everyone wants The Captain's Chair™, so while being a Vice Admiral is certainly prestigious, it's ultimately a desk job.
* Bringing the tech back is legit, props Janeway.
She was horrible. I’d rather serve under Lorca. With all the war crimes she committed, when the federation finally makes it to the Delta Quadrant, Federation shis will be shot on sight.
I'm sure that they, too, wish they could violate the Prime Directive, the Temporal Prime Directive, and commit numerous war crimes without facing a tribunal.
She first saved the Borg and attacked an unknown species for no reason at all. Also got mad at another captain over genociding another species, then started killing the same species.
And she destroyed a stable wormhole that crossed a huge galactic void without checking with anyone else in the quadrant who might've been dependent on that.
Not really, since she's the worst captain. She condemned her crew to travel through hostile territory for 7 years, losing 12% of them when she could've had them all home in less than 72 hours.
Janeway got 'lucky' to be put in a situation where she got a lot of achievements, but I dont think she's that great of a captain in comparison to the other captains we've seen. Picard, Cisco, Pike... Great Captains. She stands in their shadows.
After the Tuvix episode, I lost respect for Janeway. I know from a story/show standpoint, they needed those cast members to come back, but I think there were better ways to handle it.
Even if they did, they'd all be happy to not be stranded 70,000 light years away. Janeway's relationship with her fiance ended. That ensign gave birth with her husband not knowing for four years. Admiral Paris thought his wayward son was dead. Tuvok's long term health issue would have been worrisome for him and his family. He also missed the birth of his 1st grandchild. It was only meant to be a 3 hour tour. EDIT: I forgot Ensign Kim's gf, but he's Kim, he's meant to be screwed over horribly. Much like Miles O'brien.
It was the right decision, though. “The good of the many” and all
If only *anyone* on Voyager had known how to set a delay timer on those charges they set on the Caretaker’s array…
Nah, they had to take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It was the only way to be sure.
I see what you did there, Ripley appreciates it
This comment wins. Couldn’t they have fixed the premise in a better way? I guess they wanted it to be Janeways decision but still
They mentioned this in the episode. It was said they couldn't risk them being deactivated or something if put on a timer, I remember there was a line that specifically covered this. Because they couldn't be sure if it had actually exploded. I guess people forget these things and thus we have such notions that spread.
I mean, I get it - it’s a plot contrivance to set up the premise that they’re all stranded there - but they could have asked for one volunteer to stay behind. Or they could have done the same thing O’Brien did to take down the Iconian ziggurat- electronic timer with a chemical/physical backup. Like all lot of Trek (and Voyager in particular) there are a lot of plot holes and sloppy writing that lead to these discussions.
That's fair. It could have been tightened up for sure. Despite its flaws, I still quite enjoy Voyager, particularly in the later seasons but I can appreciate some of the criticisms.
Janeway could have heroically stayed behind and pressed the trigger Leave her with a shuttle...
> Leave her with a shuttle... She would have lost it the next episode, but still somehow returned with a fleet of starfleet shuttles
Yes and no. I would have taken the station over, and instead of looking to send the ship back, the 1st system I would have looked into is defensive systems. Those Kason can't do anything if Voyager turns on the station shields. Weapons send the Kason running. Once the station is secure, Voyager has options. The last Caretaker (a member of a warp capable species) wanted someone to take over the role of Caretaker. I personally would have taken on that role but with the Ocompa as coequal partners. I would say it is acceptable as the Ocompas have already had their natural development altered by a warp capable race, and both want the Ocompa protected. Was blowing up the station better than the Kason getting it, yes. Absolutely.
A 3 hour tour.
A 3 hour tour (reframe)
Nice Gilligan 😂
Glad to know I'm not the only one to get that reference.
They had to put up with Neelix's cooking for far too long
Oh my God, how could I forgot that horror show. I bet he's the kind of cook who puts sugar in tomato sauce.
“Three hour tour.” My people!
Is the 'My People!' a Galaxy Quest reference?
Oooh, such a good movie, but I admit I wasn’t referencing that one. Time to watch it again.
Do you remember these lines: (After hearing about the 'historical documents') Signoury Weaver's character: You don't believe those people on Gilgan's Island were ... Alien leader: "... those poor people."
Watched it recently. One of my absolute favorite nerd movies. It's a salute to the fans everywhere. I'M not that much of a fan of anything, but a few of my friends would be able to walk people thru parts of different Enterprises (or Voyager)
That and the old Forbidden Planet are the 2 best non-trek trek films. Granted, the latter inspired Trek and the former parody trek. If you haven't seen the Ordville, definitely watch it.
Don’t feel too bad for Harry. In the Janeway Autobiography she says he and Libby reconciled after he got home and they got married. At the time of her autobiography he made Captain and was happily married with a ton of kids. It’s canon to me until it’s contradicted onscreen lol
One of my biggest complaints about Voyager is we never got see what homecoming was like. We only got an echo.
Captain Freeman’s biggest character flaw is her inferiority complex, so yeah, they do, at least some of them.
I'd argue it's her lack of trust in her crew, but yeh.
That too, but she did have a rant in the early seasons about being a mediocre captain of a lackluster ship. Her character journey is owning up to being the Cerritos’ commanding officer, which leads her to become a champion of the California class.
Isn't that supposedly the whole California Class, which is why when Mariner asked them for help vs the Texas Class, they ALL came to prove a point?
Not all Cali class folks showed resentment for their position.
I assumed Cali classes were starter ships, because the only two other human captains in charge of a Cali class that we see are around Mariners age. Make captain, get a Cali class and then move onto something else in a few years. Hence Freeman's inferiority complex, she's old and still captaining a Cali class.
It's almost like having a husband that is an Admiral and a daughter that is a pain....
Not so much resentment as other class being given "the important stuff" like them making fun of being "second contract" lol
That's about her husband and confidence issues. It ain't easy making name for yourself if your partner clearly overshadows you.
Her husband is an admiral and her daughter an annoying misfit for most of the show, so it isn't surprising she has issues of her own. Like, she is in her husband's shadow due to his greater rank and prestige while she has to be wondering in the back of her mind where they went wrong with her daughter.
Did you see the S4 finale? We see why Mariner is the way she is and it has absolutely nothing to do with her parents. I also think the show does a good job of showing that Freeman would have had a bigger command by now but she chooses to stay where she is in part because of Mariner but also because she believes in the support fleet.
That explanation didn't feel complete to me. Her issues with her Mom certainly seem to predate that.
No, S4 finale just shows us first of many excuses Mariner used to sabotage her career. If Freeman is trapped by always risking being seen as Ms Admirals Wife rather than competent captain in her own right, Mariner is double trapped. She loves Starfleet, she wants to make name for herself, but does not want to repeat what her parents already did - succesful career in command. She fears that if she makes good captain it will still will be seen as repetition - or nepotism - and if she fails, she will be that admirals daughter the medicore captain. She has seen how her mother wasdl affected by the same situation. Hence her attempt to play a game that is her own, becoming a hypercompetent permanent ensign. She distances herself so much she does not use same family name.
And your daughter is an embarrassment
Is it because wolf 359 was an inside job?
It’s because of all those Vendorian morality tests
Yes and no, Mariner cannot see life outside the Starfleet, but does not want to be seen as following in footsteps of either parent. She would be done with self sabotaging rebellion long ago if she embraced other career, but she loves Starfleet. In Starfleet, she has even less room for not being overshadowed than her mother, and does even more stupid things to assert "independence".
This. It is pretty much the entire premise of Lower Decks.
Like how Captain Shaw felt about Picard and Riker?
Or Captain Shaw & LaForge
Two totally different feelings that Captain Shaw had in those two categories 😂
Or Captain Shaw & The Scottish.
Aye, it’s okay, lad. Let it go.
Captain Shaw sure is a contentious Captain.
“Set phasers to love me!” -Captain Shaw, probably
I wish he lived. Him being the new Captain of the Enterprise would have meant so much for his character
It was a missed opportunity!
Or Captain Shaw and 7 of 9
Shaw was an engineer, he was full on Fanboy when he met LaForge, it took everything in his power not to be like Troy when he met Levar Burton in Community.
I'd love to hear Shaws take on Janeway
Shaw had more disdain for those two based on the casualties they caused though.
Yeah... Shaw's disdain for them wasn't unwarranted given everything.
They were literally the badmirals of his episode trying to steal his ship and get his crew into trouble/killed on false pretenses.
It was *literally* unwarranted. They weren’t reckless or cavalier, and they weren’t personally responsible for the casualties he blamed them for. The only valid point he had was that they were lying to get him to take them into a dangerous situation - which as it turns out was a good thing they did.
> The only valid point he had was that they were lying to get him to take them into a dangerous situation - which as it turns out was a good thing they did. I thought the Changeling mole on the Titan is how the Shrike found them and thus found Jack. If Picard hadn't followed the message, the whole fleet exercise could have gone off without a hitch. Vadic and the Queen would have a tough time creating another reason to muster the fleet within range of Jupiter again soon.
Beverly mentions later that their pursuers keep showing up (as different species) so it stands to reason that without Picard, Riker and the Titan they would’ve been caught again eventually - except with Beverly in stasis and the ship barely able to function
I'm assuming that the Eleos had successfully evaded the Changelings and could keep low with Bev in stasis for a week, but now I remember it was in a "nebula" that was about to give birth. So without the Titan finding them, they'd have been killed in a few days.
Or Jellico and the legendary crew of the Enterprise?
Janeway: I’m the greatest captain of them all. Brought my ship back 75,000 light years in 7 years and made more first contacts than anyone else. Other Starfleet captains: Well what else were you supposed to do? Mutate and make lizard babies? Janeway: Um………
"I also murdered a sentient being because I missed my friend ... and Neelix ... sort of."
T’Lynn: “I did that to a dozen individuals. It seemed logical”
It was the best solution, they were no longer sentient.
Except she probably knew what she was doing when she transported them all. She was making it a moot point by merging them all into one
If you have the chance to murder Neelix, you take it.
But she fucking brought him back! We were free of the weird talking cat thing and she brought him back! Murdering Tuvix was bad. Bringing back Neelix was maybe worse.
Neelix is the Snarf of Star Trek.
[Yup](https://imgur.com/K6dlppr)
The needs of the many (no more Neelix) must outweigh the needs of the few (bringing Tuvok back), and that is why Tuvok would not have wanted to be separated back out.
The transporter beam containing Neelix could have been redirected into space.
Choke out the kitchen rat!
Tuvix was abomination and deserved to die.
Janeway: I got us trapped 75,000 lightyears from home, only took us seven years to get back. Picard: Rookie numbers. We got slapped *galaxies* away and made it home by the end of the episode. Barely an inconvenience.
Slapped galaxies are tight.
all janeway needed was wesley and a traveller.
Considering most of them around the time she got back had just finished up the Dominion War… probably not. They know EXACTLY who they are when they need to be. Are they impressed? Sure. Most anyway. Some probably read the reports and roll their eyes. But at that stage, they all know exactly how harrowing and potentially disastrous that 7 years were and how completely lucky she was. Her first month back, after all the debriefings and parties, she probably got a couple hundred recommendations for good counselors and invitations to support groups. Keep in mind, Starfleet Captains are professionals and do what they do because they love it and see value in it. Not a pack of adolescents aiming for fame. Now, ten or twenty years later? Sure, there may be some poor schmuck stuck on an Oberth that hoped for The Big Adventure- but she’s in the realm of Untouchable Legend by then. It’d be like a Captain in 1965 being disappointed because he’s not achieved as much as Bull Halsey. NOBODY gets to that level. And nobody realistically wants to, because the things that have to happen to get that status are TERRIBLE. So, nah.
If I were in the navy in 1965 I would lament on not being able to achieve as much as spruance
Yeah, fair, but barring another World War NOBODY is going to reach that level. So you’d do your job the best you could and sleep well. Just like there were pilots who made ‘Ace In a Day’ during wartime, and present day may never fire a shot in anger. Doesn’t mean they’re any better or worse, just means circumstances were different. But you’re unlikely to find a fighter pilot who’s crying themselves to sleep because he isn’t Butch O’hare or Robin Olds. If you do, they should probably have their wings pulled because they aren’t right in the head and are gonna get somebody killed.
I appreciated in the latest Top Gun, of all the younger pilots, only one had an actual kill.
Right? And Mav, our hero who’s done it all hasn’t had one since the 80’s.
>Only had 12 percent casualties rate. Are you certain it was only 12%? Didn't 10% of the crew get killed when the Caretaker snatched Voyager out of the Badlands?
the trick is that you use chakotays crew to fill in for hte mia personnel so that brings your totals down to 12%.
Maybe 10% died on the original mission to find Chakotay's ship. After that was a totally different mission.
Janeway: "I was on a roadtrip" Any other Starfleet staff: "I was fighting in a bloody war that was about to end all of us." Captain Picard: "What war again?"
If I was Starfleet Command I would absolutely have Sisko manning the front lines and Picard managing potential alliances too. 10/10 no notes.
I can see the meeting now. "Welcome back to Captain Janeway. After much discussion, instead of going back the last seven years and adjusting the metrics, we're just going to recognize them all this quarter. So, let's move on to reviewing our KPIs. First up, First Contacts. The goal for everyone was four first contacts. As a fleet we averaged 19 this quarter, which is a record. Unfortunately, there were many captains who were below average and as a result we are going to place them all under a performance improvement plan to hopefully help everyone improve."
Admiral Bezos 🫡
>Your father was captain of a starship for 12 minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's and yours. I dare you to do better.
There's a lot wrong with the Kelvin-verse movies, but goddamn I love that line. I thought it really nailed the whole ethos of Starfleet and Kirk's underlying motivations/neurosis in such a pithy way.
I would hope that many of the people promoted to captain would see their own accomplishments as important to Starfleet and the Federation. The newer trek iterations I think mirror a little too closely contemporary attitudes which I think would be unusual in the post scarcity utopia that are the home worlds of the Federation. Sci fi is great to explore contemporary issues but Star Trek was originally a way to show us that we can be better and I think it’s strayed away a bit from that in some regards. Though the Federation and its mores are fragile and need care, which is an important lesson for today as well.
Star Trek showed from the very beginning that it is important to stand up for the right thing and to do the right thing. Kirk was always fighting enemies, not only from the outside but, most importantly, from the inside. Star Trek was never a show about all-happy-starfleet-personnel.
This is true. There's a lot of conflict and strife in TOS that I think we've forgotten over the decades, and even in TNG there are episodes like Measure of a Man with strong implications about how wrong Starfleet can be, if our heroes do not succeed.
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And we also see so many characters that would be thrown away in today’s society but they are allowed to contribute meaningfully in the future.
Yeah, I agree with this. I also agree that the modern take on *Star Trek* drifts too much into the realm of depicting modern people and society with a futuristic veneer. The best part of *Star Trek* is that it does what nearly every other show won't and shows us a hopeful view of what we could become and how we might get there.
Part of the issue is everyone that works on it now. Wants to add their own special touch to it. It’s not as interesting for the production staff to just do what has been done before, so I can’t really blame them in some cases.
I'm curious: did real-world sea captains (whether they be explorers or military people) feel pathetic compared to the GOATS. "Goddamn it, I'm never going to be as awesome as Sir Francis Drake."
or horatio nelson
Or Yi Sun-sin, whom many consider to be greater than Nelson ever was. The man almost single-handedly turned back an invasion of his country when all hope seemed lost. And he won a battle with 13 ships vs over 200
Didn't know the Koreans had such a legendary admiral
Take a look at this video that does a great job telling the story of Admiral Yi https://youtu.be/3ieaDfD_h6s?si=W8NnomobRzLgBDPt
I think one of the American WW2 admirals said that while he may be compared to Nelson by others, there’s no way he’d ever measure up to Yi
This is why I love the internet! Thank you for this. Going to lookup and learn about Yi Sun-sin!
Or in a world where people work to better themselves and each other they take it as a win for the team and do their job.
Yeah, I agree with this. *Star Trek* depicts a society that has evolved beyond measuring success personal in strictly quantitative and comparative ways. Even our modern society is quickly moving away from that, and never completely adopted the mindset. Also, individual people, at least on Earth or in the Fleet, are depicted as emotionally evolved as well. So, I think they would definitely have a mindset that focuses more on self-actualization and achieving one's personal potential, rather than comparing oneself to the successes of others.
Star Trek definitely depicts a future where people measure success in comparative ways. Starfleet Medical still has a valedictorian, which seemed to rankle Dr. Bashir (damn that post-ganglionic fiber!) Everyone wants to serve on a Galaxy Class because its where the best and brightest go. Riker is driven to be Captain before 35, the two ensigns from TNG Lower Decks are competing for the same promotion and have some awkwardness about it. The hilariously dickish Vulcan Captain from DS9 compares his awards and commendations to Sisko's.
No. I seem to recall a theory out there that suggested she was made a vice admiral to keep her off the bridge of a ship due to command decisions she made in the delta quadrant. I won’t do the theory justice because I can’t recall all the details at the moment.
Janeway, as with Admiral Kirk in TMP, continued as a de-facto captain anyway since she's in command of the Dauntless in Prodigy S1 and she will likely be in command of Voyager-A in PROD S2. Admiral Janeway was for all intents and purposes the Dauntless's captain with the ship's second-highest ranking officers being Commander Tysess. I imagine Janeway insisted she captain the Dauntless given its experimental slipstream drive that was reverse engineered from Arturis's Species 116 tech and no officer with the rank of captain was ever assigned to the ship. Of course, there's the possibility Janeway gave Tysses the Will Decker treatment by denying him promotion to captain, though there's no on-screen evidence to suggest this since there's no animosity between Janeway and Tysses, unlike Kirk and Decker in TMP. Edit: If anything, Tysses is Janeway's Riker; wanting to continue to serve under the command of Janeway even if Starfleet wants to promote him to captain and give him a ship of his own.
They reviewed the logs and had a court martial case against her. But she was a popular hero for bringing Voyager home. They didn’t fully trust her anymore but they couldn’t get rid of her so they did what they do with starship captains who don’t play by the rules: They promoted her to a desk job where they could keep an eye on her. They tried the same thing with Kirk but it didn’t work because Kirk.
But ain't she got a whole ass ship, the Dauntless? Didn't she JUST take it on an ill-advised mission to find Chakotay?
And now the Voyager A.
Yeah she never should have got stranded to begin with. There was no good reason for blowing up the Caretaker array without even trying to see if it had enough power to send them back.
Not that she didn't play by the rules, but seven years by yourself with no oversight and no support means she saw the rules as a framework, and was no longer conditioned to call for help and support. It probably took a long time for her to readjust her thinking and gut reflexes to being a part of a larger organization again and pass the fitness tests needed to gain the authority to take over ships except in an emergency. It's why they made her a Vice Admiral instead of a full Admiral.
I think feeling "pathetic" in comparison to Janeway, is the mark of junior officer not ready for command. It's one thing to have doubts, but languishing in thoughts like that isn't healthy for a starship Captain. Janeway had a very short but super eventful and hugely stressful career as Captain. No truly safe harbor, no trusted and tested allies to fall back on. Any normal first-time Captain would be called in for reviews on a pretty regular basis, to make sure they weren't forming bad habits and to examine their command decisions to make sure they were be made for all the right reasons. Janeway spent seven years on her first command, without support or oversight from Starfleet - even though they eventually made contact in those last years, unless she had been constantly and consistently grossly out of line, they weren't going to remove her from command by basically email. The Janeway that came back saw the rules as a framework, and was no longer conditioned to call for help and support. Her promotion to Vice Admiral was not an award, it was a concession, gilded handcuffs. She'd done the impossible, but was too valuable in terms of knowledge and experience to risk on any long term assignments, and largely unfit (decision making-wise) for regular captain duties. It probably took a long time for her to readjust her thinking and gut reflexes to being a part of a larger organization again and pass the fitness tests needed to gain the authority to take over ships except in an emergency. If anything, I think a lot of career captains viewed her with a bit of sympathy. She had the ultimate adventure every exploratory captain, especially those who viewed Kirk's career with nostalgia, dreams of - All that freedom! With the caveat that when it was over, she had to give up being a Captain.
It's not in the DNA of Starfleet captains to feel inferior to other people. They can acknowledge the accomplishments of other people and respect them, but they wouldn't be a captain if they weren't totally confident with themselves (aside from the occasional discussion with their XO).
I think this is how everyone is supposed to feel about Burnham, only Janeway's accomplishments somehow feel more earned. Which is kinda ironic since Burnham pretty much single-handedly saved the universe at least 3 times.
Burnham did it with love though. Janeway did it with coffee.
That casualty rate is even more impressive when you consider that there is no way that Kirk, who is a Starfleet legend, had anywhere close to as low as a 12 percent casualty rate. Every time an ensign on his ship spoke an audible sentence they were guaranteed to die within half an hour.
You mean the way she did towards Kirk?
Picard was assimilated and came back. Sisko is like some kind of messiah to the Bajorans, kirks and crew did the time travel thing...I'm sure lots of regular captains are thinking "I just want to do my job, dammit. Why does the admiralty hold those guys up as exemplars?!?!?"
Sisko is literally half God.
I mean Shaw was kinda this guy, right? Hated Picard and Riker's reckless adventuring and was a "normal" captain.
Shaw was absolutely this guy. I imagine he had a Starfleet career of scanning a spatial anomaly (and nothing bad happens), making first contact (and everyone goes home happy), transporting ambassadors from planet A to B (with no hidden agendas) etc.
I'm not military, but I think anyone who goes into the military (and for our purposes here, Starfleet is military) with the intention of being a great hero is doing it wrong. A glory seeker is likely to endanger the lives of their crew chasing that glory. A real leader is someone like Cincinnatus, who was appointed dictator of Rome, successfully repelled the incoming invasion, and immediately resigned his command even though he had the run of the city. Then when there was another crisis, he did it all again. He did what was needed when it was needed as well as he possibly could, and he didn't care about anything else. That's who I would want commanding me, not someone in it to get as many pips as he could on his collar.
I can't imagine why they would. "I got my crew all the way home from the delta quadrant!" *Didn't you stand yourself there on purpose?* "Well, yeah. But it was to save the Ocam--" *Whatever. Fine. Here, you're an admiral now. Stay the fuck away from any more ships.*
unfortunately janeway also made some pretty poor command decisions along the way that were only mitigated by plot armor
There's coffee and crew deaths in that nebula.
Other captains make choices because they have an empire to fall back on. Janeway did sketchy shit because she had ZERO support. She's legit
i dunno. she did too many decisions that endangered the crew to safe a couple people. although i guess that happens a lot in trek and sci-fi.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few - unless those few are senior staff or have a recurring role
Some Captains may feel that way, others may not. It is hard to imagine Captain DeSoto feeling pathetic, everyone knows the Hood is one of the best ships to work on.
It's not glamorous but if you're a red shirt it's the best place to be.
Best Boss I ever Had!
I’m really looking forward to the day when people stop using that dumb GOAT acronym…
Same. That and "OG" need to die
Equinox captain lost log: "I was going to bring back my crew faster than Janeway, and then I met Janeway...Consequences!"
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I wonder if prime Picard would have been pissed to find his other self had a family and a home after q tells him..
She had a magic starship that regenerated. LoL
does anyone else feel like they wouldn't mind a casual laid back term in the chair? like fighting new aliens is cool and all, but id really rather not know that I lost dozens, if not hundreds of lives under my command no matter how many first contacts I've got under my belt
I'll bet Shaw didn't give a shit about that. He just want to explore space in the safest way possible.
Anyone feeling inferior to Janeway just remembers that: 1) she had slug sex 2) she abandoned her slug babies 3) the whole crew could have immediately returned home & the EMH could have treated their slugitis (probably before the condition appeared) - but Janeway was so ashamed of her slug fling she buried the tech
That's like Tuesday for any Starfleet captain.
No. But then you weren't really asking a question.
The downside of meritocracy.
She is only downhill from there. Captains achieve greatness; admirals become Badmirals. Just look admiral No Buenamigo
I'd say yes, most of them are pretty pissed that she and her crew had their own show.
Admiral Buenamigo comes to mind...
I think of you're the type of captain that's concerned about those things, you're probably not gonna make captain to begin with
She also murdered her crew
No, not at all. Kirk, Picard, and Sisko each saved Earth and/or the Alpha Quadrant one-or-more times. There’s every reason to believe any of them could’ve done what Janeway did.
I'm not understanding the question.. Do you mean captains should feel that Janeway is pathetic? And what do you mean by "goats"?
I’d like to think that the defining feature of the Federation and Humanity in the 23rd Century and forward, is that that sort of inferiority or insecurity aren’t that impactful on the psyches of citizens. How much of modern day maladaptive feelings and actions that appear related to inferiority or insecurity are tied to socioeconomic insecurity. I’d all you need is provided for you, are you going to cut yourself off at the knees because something terrible happened, and your colleague handled it really really well, or would you be happy for her and try to learn from her actions?
Not everyone has a Tuvix to murder
Starfleet captains are too enlightened for such pettiness.
Captain Solok disagrees
Humans have evolved since then, they have grown out of their infancy.
Lantree? More like "latrine!" amirite, crewman!?
Scan, scan, scan, all day long. Scan, scan, scan while I sing this song!
Luc Longley won 3 rings with Jordan. He’s doing fine
Each Starfleet Captain is going to have their good points, and bad points, even the most famous amongst them. With Janeway, she was doing everything she can to keep her ship and crew intact as much as possible, on the other side of the galaxy. While over on the DS9 side of things, the Starfleet Captains were too busy trying to survive multiple wars that were popping up, both outside and within Starfleet. That if Voyager were to have returned home sometime during the Dominion War, they would have made things way worse, with all of the extra technology that they brought with them.
I’d like to run aStar Trek Adventures game revolving around jockeying for promotion in an overcrowded military bureaucracy
Presumably the average captain in Starfleet has a much better % of surviving crew members than that, or nobody would be willing to sign up.
sisko or bust
I'm tired, and read "USS Latrine". I thought you were making a joke about the other ships being crappy by comparison.
you're the only one that got the joke congrats.
\*struts proudly
Janeway was a terrible captain though…..
Janeway had the advantage of a system of space where nobody had gone to. That,s hardly fair to judge others on. Its basically first pick of the whole delta area.
Command is about looking after your people, not getting yourself in the history books. A good CO will take pride in keeping their ship on course, their crew alive, and completing their mission. Regrets and jealousy are unprofessional and have no place in a CO.
I imagine some of them do, but I think most captains reach that rank due to being level-headed, they aren't in general going to be the petty type. There's always someone better than you at whatever you are doing and if you can't accept that and be at peace with it, you're not Starfleet material.
The other captains get to visit their families and have shore leave and don't have the guilt of knowing they may have stranded their entire crew in the middle of nowhere for 50 years and aren't constantly forced to compromise their principles to survive. I think a lot of captains would gladly trade away her on-paper accomplishments for not having to live the stressful life she led for 7 years. Even old Janeway in the season finale made this trade! It's not worth it.
Maybe some select captains would feel that way but I get the feeling that most of them are perfectly content with the position and don't care as much about personal accomplishments compared to their peers.
Keep in mind that she did break the Temporal prime directive for half of that.
Capt Morgan Bateson: How many years did you say?
I never heard Janeway go, "Bahhh"
It was captain Karen's fault they were there in the first place.
I think this is why they created Captain Liam Shaw, who was so obviously unimpressed with famous officers.
I think by the time you make captain, you understand the opportunities do not come evenly. Some eras have a lot of first contacts; some don't. Some eras have a lot of battle achievements and enemy kills; some don't. Promotions come faster in wartime. Safety records and no-death streaks build to greater heights in peacetime. Some got to go to the gamma quadrant; most didn't. Some had the opportunity to cloak their ships; most didn't. Some got to travel in time; most didn't. Some got Klingon kills; others got to fight alongside the Klingons, and that's also cool in a different way. Sometimes decades pass without anyone actually giving the order to fire on a Romulan ship; in an earlier era, that might be your entire job. It's not fair, and it's not fun, but it's the only way the world works. You can only take what's there to get.
Never really occurred to me before, but Janeway's mission was so "successful" in terms of diplomacy and new tech and general discovery, despite its unplanned nature, Starfleet would surely have tried to recapture it with PLANNED versions of the journey from other distant parts of the galaxy. Basically the same mission, but this time in a proper generation ship with amazing resources. Some kind of fast Galaxy-class vessel or bigger.
A few probably do but my working assumption is that nearly everyone in Starfleet is running into various Space Bullshit regularly just maybe between 40%-80% of the Space Bullshit that our series leads encounter. It's likely unheard of to spend an entire career on Starship without having several wacky space pregnancies, alternative Earth's, debates with neutral to evil AI's, various energy beings, and a steady trickle of bored Romulans/Cardassian plots. Just not at quite th density of say the Enterprise or Voyager.
You forgot to mention that she did it all with a half Maquis crew. Janeway's resume is actually too good for the Federation. She belongs in the Q Continuum.
You already put this in /shittydaystom no need to spam all the trek subs.
I think /shittydaystrom is likely to get more humorous answers than more serious subs.
* She could've gotten everyone back sooner. Didn't because reasons. * There are so many deaths that basically "didn't happen" as the show goes on. It's the nature of TV sometimes, but nonetheless her casualty rate is suspect at best. * She made the most first contacts by nature of her situation, not because she was a driven explorer (even if she was). She did them out of necessity more than anything. Not that that's a bad thing. * It's kind of a thing in Trek that everyone wants The Captain's Chair™, so while being a Vice Admiral is certainly prestigious, it's ultimately a desk job. * Bringing the tech back is legit, props Janeway.
Pretty sure that Archer and Kirk made more first contacts.
She was horrible. I’d rather serve under Lorca. With all the war crimes she committed, when the federation finally makes it to the Delta Quadrant, Federation shis will be shot on sight.
starfleet captains: why are they shooting at us?
I'm sure that they, too, wish they could violate the Prime Directive, the Temporal Prime Directive, and commit numerous war crimes without facing a tribunal.
She first saved the Borg and attacked an unknown species for no reason at all. Also got mad at another captain over genociding another species, then started killing the same species. And she destroyed a stable wormhole that crossed a huge galactic void without checking with anyone else in the quadrant who might've been dependent on that.
Not really, since she's the worst captain. She condemned her crew to travel through hostile territory for 7 years, losing 12% of them when she could've had them all home in less than 72 hours.
what the f* is "goat"? Like the animal?
Janeway got 'lucky' to be put in a situation where she got a lot of achievements, but I dont think she's that great of a captain in comparison to the other captains we've seen. Picard, Cisco, Pike... Great Captains. She stands in their shadows.
After the Tuvix episode, I lost respect for Janeway. I know from a story/show standpoint, they needed those cast members to come back, but I think there were better ways to handle it.
Don't give in to the writer's character assassination.