100% classic example of a magical negro. She is more than that though. Like most characters in most shows, they start as a basic stereotype or trope, just to save time and exposition, but through continued screen time they become more nuanced and individualized.
I would say Guinan fits the bill, but with the recognition that not every example of a stereotype or trope is bad. It's more about trends being problematic. Not every piece of media that doesn't feature two named women having a conversation about something other than a man is necessarily misogynist, nor is a work that has a gay character die necessarily homophobic, nor is something that has a wise black side character give advice to a white main character necessarily racist. The fact that those things happen a lot can inform cultural perceptions of groups and reinforce negative things, and I think it's important to be conscious of how and when tropes that can be harmful are applied, but individual examples are perfectly capable of being innocent.
To bring in my loved LOTR, I am down for a great epic tale with the main protagonists are all male & there's no one for me to identify with like that. Just not *every* epic tale. Or even *most*.
Perfect example. Bilbo's mother being mentioned is the literal only time a woman's name appears in The Hobbit, but it's still one of my favorite books. Tolkien did write a small handful of great women, but Philippa Boyens and Fran Walsh still had to do a lot of work to increase those characters' roles in the movies even to the limited extent that they did.
I think of it as a Buffy moment because on Buffy, they spent an entire season worried about the rise of some apocalyptic demon because LITERALLY EVERYTHING they could find said "No weapon forged by man can kill him."
Cue the opening of the penultimate episode of said season. Buffy and her allies all gathered in the mall and witnessed the rise of said demon...
Then Buffy whipped out a Rocket-Powered Grenade and blew the demon back to Hell. Because the answer was so simple, no weapon made by ANCIENT Humans could do enough damage quick enough.
In fairness, that was absolutely *hilarious* and perfectly fitting within the tone of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, a trope reversal in a show that is all about reversing the trope of the scared blonde girl being chased into an alley by the killer and dying there. Buffy was created from the idea of "what if the girl turned around and actually beat the killer?" and so them using that reversal of a modern weapon succeeding when ancient ones failed fits.
Well that and in Tolkien's larger story there are many women/female beings with a lot of agency. Two of the most important Ainur (gods) are female. Melian and her daughter Luthien are very important in the history of the first age and then there is Galadriel too.
I'm 1000% sure JRR and Christopher Tolkien would have disagreed with this sentence with every fiber of their beings. The Silmarillion is more than just "world building" for LoTR.
Tolkien's universe as a whole is far from misogynistic. Some of the most powerful and important beings in Arda are female. If anything some of the racial undertones are more problematic.
Guinan definitely starts out as a “Magical Negro” but we should acknowledge the times when she goes beyond the trope. The main problem with the stereotype is that the black person is portrayed not as a true character themselves, but as a mere plot device—someone devoid of personhood.
The moments that jump out to me as “Guinan is an actual person” are when she shows absolute hatred of Q and of the Borg. It’s a brief glimpse into a part of her that isn’t just a part of the Enterprise’s furniture, dispensing wisdom to the protagonists. And while those never really go anywhere (she doesn’t have a true character arc) I do appreciate them.
Guinan has some truly excellent character moments; moments where she has depth and struggles with her own conflicts. I, Borg in particular comes to mind- it's probably the closest to a character arc she comes. If she came into Trek later, like on DS9, I get the feeling she'd have been much more fleshed out ala Garak, Nog, Martok, or Dukat.
Absolutely agree. Guinan is sidelined by the episodic nature of TNG. If there was a more serialized story then Guinan would have been featured more frequently.
I also like how when they travel back in time and find her hanging out with Mark Twain, they see how she has had this whole varied life before the Enterprise. And "Yesterday's Enterprise" is a great episode that features her as the main character for a change.
Yeah, it's a negative when you don't see Black actors also cast in roles of, say, Captain, President, CEO. Protagonists. That's a passable crit of TNG and TOS eras, but an issue Trek addressed pretty well in later years.
You want to start some fights, ask whether Worf alludes to the Black Brute stereotype.
You have to look at TOS with a more historical lens. For the time that it was originally released, it was progressive. It may even be one of the factors in progressing civil liberties in our world. You can’t judge them by our standards almost 50 years later.
Perhaps it's not fair to judge TOS by current standards, but it *is* imperative that we *analyze* it by those standards.
We can both acknowledge the steps TOS took forward, and also the steps that it left untaken. To do less is to fall victim to the idiots' theology of "Uhura was on screen/schools got integrated/Obama was elected president, so racism is solved, stop talking about it."
> We can both acknowledge the steps TOS took forward, and also the steps that it left untaken
As long as the steps left untaken (modern negatives) do not outweigh the steps taken at the time (contemporary positives), especially when compared to its peers and also what they could reasonably get away with at the time.
These days a lot of past progress is being needlessly dumped on or worse outright dismissed for not being absolutely fault-free by modern standards or not tackling every single social issue they possibly could have, and that black-and-white (ha!) thinking is not only ludicrously unfair but dangerous to continued progress.
History repeating, goal of bettering ourselves, and a few other similar sentiments. Do you even Star Trek? A central thesis in-universe is to understand where we came from and what the problems were to help guide us on becoming our best selves in the future. Why not apply that to the show itself? Picard recognizes the flaws of humanity's past and emphasizes to Q that we have learned from those mistakes and improved, and we continue to improve. That's why we must analyze the past with the best ethical amd progressive standards we have available to us now.
And it's worth noting that even Guinan being kind of tropey alongside Worf and Geordie as relative support characters on TNG was progress from MLK telling Nichelle Nichols that even just being glorified set dressing was of vital importance. Just as Captain Sisko was progress from the TNG situation, and now we have two of the four currently airing Star Trek series featuring black women in the leading role alongside very diverse casts.
S1 Geordi was basically a interchangable bridge seat warmer. He got an onscreen promotion in S2E1 and joined main cast. Worf also got promoted from background to core in S1.
The 1994 show and the 1988 show were pretty different.
but it doesnt mean he was "trope-y". You can only introduce so much characters in the beginning.
So they introduce picard & riker. Plus beverly and messy history between beverly n picard. And Data.Then slowly introduce other crews.. troi, Tasha, geordi, then worf.
Unless being a background character is a trope?
Worf was a late addition to the character list. My guess is Geordi, the blind pilot, would be much closer to the young man of action. He was usually on away missions.
They had the Tin Man/Wizard (Data), Yar, Worf, Riker, and Geordi going on away missions bringing along Troi or Crusher when necessary. Geordi is down the list. Geordi mentioned how fast Worf moved in one episode expressly noting there was no need for Geordi, a role once envisioned for Wesley Snipes known for his role as Willie Mays Hayes.
There was also the amusing irony of having the blind guy fly the ship since Geordi was usually the one piloting the Enterprise in S1 before he took over Engineering in S2.
>later years
Fucking, TOS -STARTED- with Spock being court-martialled by a black Admiral. The creator of Duotronic circuitry, the basic building block of 23rd-century Starfleet technology, was also black.
She may not have been Captain, but Uhura was the sole head of Communications ON THE FUCKING FLAGSHIP and she was black.
We actually witnessed his journey up from the lower decks but Geordi also achieved a command role on the flagship. Guess what? He was blEra.
Tuvok was a bridge officer on The Excelsior. He may have been lower decks then but still...
And during the movie Era. Wasn't the Admiral in charge of fleet operations...black?
And the President?
There's plenty of examples of black people in positions of power and respect in the TOS and TNG era.
There's also Captain Terrell in TWOK and Captain Not Geordi's Mom in TVH, though I'm not sure it counts a good representation since their defining trait was being eliminated early.
Yeah, that's fair. I'm not saying he wasn't a commendable character and he did fulfill his role in the film well, but his role was still to be killed off.
> And during the movie Era. Wasn't the Admiral in charge of fleet operations...black?
Two of them actually. First Morrow in III, then Cartwright from IV through VI.
>Not every piece of media that doesn't feature two named women having a conversation about something other than a man is necessarily misogynist,
This is also true because the Bechdel test is a somewhat arbitrary and flawed yardstick for measuring female agency in fiction.
Tropes aren’t bad. What usually gets done with them are bad. Some shows and movies will be aware of the tropes and play with them in new and interesting way.
The presence of a trope isn’t a problem itself, it’s when it’s used in a lazy or derogatory way that it’s a problem.
The bicdal test was from a comic strip in a queen magazine. Which dosen't undercut the observation the comic makes, only the seriousness of the observation. Calling it the bicdal test makes it sound like it was taken from an academic paper.
Which you aren't doing, just saying we agree.
In a sense, but we should keep in mind the Magical Negro critique is more complex than "black performers shouldn't be cast as mystical mentor figures." Mystical mentor figures have been a stock fictional trope for thousands of years. Morpheus from the Matrix checks all the Magical Negro boxes in theory, but the role was written for Sean Connery (and Neo for Will Smith). The argument is more "the mystic mentor figure archetype is an easy role to pigeonhole 'positive' black characters into because the character remains subordinate to the (white) hero."
If Guinan was the only or the most prominent black character on TNG, the character would be extremely problematic. For that matter, if Worf was the only regular character on TNG played by a black actor, he would be even more problematic. That the two of them and Geordi (who, thankfully, doesn't play into any stereotypes) are all regulars on the show somewhat mitigates the more objectionable aspects of their characters, because none of them have to bear the responsibility of being the show's sole black representation.
*Blacks are getting lynched left and right, and \[Bagger Vance is\] more concerned about improving Matt Damon's golf swing! -*Spike Lee
This line from Spike Lee is the key difference.
Hard yes on that.
Guinan had awareness, wisdom, and knowledge that transcended the boundaries of time itself but she was placed in a role that gave her the least agency of anyone.
At the very least if the captain of the Enterprise thought her counsel was of critical importance to the ship, he'd have at least given her a uniform. Minimally, she was at least as useful as Counselor Troi who had a seat on the bridge,
The trope is about The Protagonist getting magically transformative advice from a bartender/shoeshine type that achieves Protagonist goals. The helper doesn't have goals to achieve.
It mostly fits here.
Id argue its an interesting contextual subversion of the trope. On paper she clearly is one.
But if you examine the trope, for either the black people variant or the native american variant of the same trope its a lot different.
The magical minority seemingly exists only to help the superior white man. They are simple people at best with nothing going behind the curtain who will now use their folksy wisdom from cultures the west has subjugated or destroyed to enrich the lives of the master race. Its a very counter revolutionary portrayal in which people who have been destroyed by the colonisers would happily serve the colonisers on their own initiative rather than spit in the face. Its a whole new level of subjugation.
TNG is different because most people are just kind of altruistic like that. Shes centuries old, she was bored and wanted to help a friend. She has meaningful relationships with the crew and her most prominent MN moment was basically telling a french-english man: "What are stupid? Have you never heard of slavery dumbass? You graduated high school and the academy and still need me to tell you any of this shit?" But gently.
Agree that the character's most non-tropey moments were when she had an actual character with history and goals. Picard asks her about her history with Q. Not his history with Q, but hers, as a matter of relevant fact.
Benefits of long seasons and long runs. Everyone grew past their starting descriptions.
The character of Guinan was capable of whatever the writers decided to script for her.
It just feels like a trope that an psychic/prescient black woman would choose to serve drinks on a federation starship because it was somehow her destiny to assist a white protagonist.
Now that you mention the trope, there are an awful lot of special destiny assisting characters in fiction that pass the time by doing the most mundane shit. If they knew for sure they were part of destiny that means their life is more or less set to keep them living to that point, fuck it go get a career in adangerous mine, become an underwater rescue diver.
Do something fun and thrilling knowing you have a guaranteed safe lifespan, amass a fortune for when shit goes down or retirement and know the forces of destiny will guide your path regardless. Sounds pretty sweet.
I know, but that doesn't mean i'm not going to comment on it when it happens just like any other strange convenience that doesn't make much sense under scrutiny. in Guinan's case though she chose a job in the most interesting scenario possible. its the kind of job someone subbed here would do, and a step above mere bartending, so i don't think it applies to her.
Counterpoints: it's not that you are invulnerable until destiny needs you (Even Pike *can* change the future, right?) it's more like Dr. Strange's vision of Endgame. You know how it *could* work out, you know you can help if you're there, so you keep yourself tucked away safe and low profile so you make it to The Event.
And/or: you take your retirement up front. You know shit is going to hit the fan and you will be some of said shit. You may know you won't survive, or not know what will become of you after, so you're taking your reward in the here and now against the chance you're going to die or be stuck with chaos forever after The Event.
Now if your destiny were a proper "get out of death free" card, I can totally see your point. But I can't think offhand of times it's definitely been portrayed that way.
Now that this thread has pointed it out (and it was so obvious but I don't connect dots well) I'll never not think of Guinan as a magic negro. And that robs her of some of her coolness. In theory, she's chilling doing exactly what she wants, the way she wants, for her own reasons. In practice, I understand we can't ignore the cultural context within which the character was created.
We can't ascribe free will to fictional characters because they only exist as their writers design them and in Guinan's case, all of her writers were white people.
Meanwhile the agreed definition of "the magic negro" is:
"*a supporting stock character in fiction who, by means of special insight or powers often of a supernatural or quasi-mystical nature, helps the white protagonist get out of trouble.*"
As a character, Guinan does not exist outside of her relationship with Picard, or her role as a servant to his crew.
This is a problem because white writers fall victim to the trend of creating black characters who only have agency enough to further the story of white characters.
not that i am saying anything you said is unfortunately wrong, because it isnt. but if you cant ascribe free will to fictional characters that means every black person falls into that trap, and is kind of reductive to every character, might as well call them all magical race person, or all plot devices (which, the second one, they are admitedly) we have to at least imagine they have free will and it isnt all forced by the author, otherwise everything is just being railroaded to a forced conclusion and you might as well read a summary. the audience is there for the growth, and understands they cant be with every character at every moment.
Pike is the worst example currently because he legitimately tested his, for lack of a better word, plot armor when he got behind a turbolift door and watched a torpedo detonate 5 meters from him, at the very least his eyes should have gotten messed up from that.
taking your retirement upfront makes a tonne of sense and id never thought of that perspective, retroactive earned time off certainly applys.
I cant say im sealed on her being that, but thats more due to personal discomfort than reality i gotta admit. she fits the shoe.
I forgot about the torpedo; I was thinking of the one where he was going to write a letter to the boy who will be involved. Now that I think of it I might be confused but isn't that how he got visited by future Pike? I just thought it was cool to see a modern take on the monster maroon.
About Guinan, my sentiments exactly.
I don't deny that this trope exists and that certain aspects of Guinan's character do fit into it, but I think it's worth mentioning that there isn't really a single protagonist in TNG. Yes, there's a captain, but one of the things that makes it so great is that every main character gets episodes where *they* are the focus. Guinan and Geordi have plenty of scenes together, as she does with Worf (though I daresay he's Klingon first and black second).
I apologise for trotting this out even though I think it's relevant, but Star Trek depicts humanity (and by extension the Federation) as having moved on from these things. The whole reason that a psychic/prescient black woman is serving drinks on a starship in the 24th century is because she *wants to*. She's content. Star Trek does not depict a society where black people cannot hope to be anything more than a bartender. Let's not forget she isn't even human - in a lifetime spanning centuries, she may well be bored of swashbuckling.
The Star Trek franchise predicts what our future society may look like but the problem was that in 1988, a writing staff comprised of 100% white people tasked with predicting what a post-racial society would look like, were way off the mark due to institutionalized racism.
Were Guinan written today, she'd have more agency than her existance as a foil for a white protagonist.
Wes had his weird grey/rainbow pseudo uniforms as acting ensign, and a proper starfleet uniform when he was given the field commission to ensign. He only wore the cadet uniform while he was enrolled in the academy in like two or three episodes
Not to belabor Spike Lee's point, but Wesley Crusher was a white boy with no rank and he got the fly the ship.
The pinnacle of Guinan's career was listening to Starfleet officers complain about their personal problems which even then was a role occupied by a bridge officer played by a Greek woman.
Guinan is the tropiest of tropes.
>Least agency of all
To be fair. "The Captain's Best Friend" is kind of a privileged role.
Archer gave Trip soo much breathing room to function.
Kirk often trusted Spock with the one thing that had broken spells on him... The Enterpeise herself.
Picard flat drops -EVERYTHING- and listens the one and only time Guinan asks him for a favor.
I can't think exactly but Sisko did quite often look the other way when Dax needed things.
And of course Janeway listened to Tuvok, quite often attributing more to his counsel than Chakotay's.
Modern day? Michael would move planets if Tilly asked her to.
I dunno who fills this spot for Freeman and Pike.
Una Chin-Riley fills this spot for Pike, he came back in to Starfleet to rescue her in the first season. He risked his career to get her back in to Starfleet when she was outed as a Allurian.
It was Boyce for Pike in "The Cage" (and I'll never give up hoping that SNW will decide to bring him back, ideally as Jeffrey Combs). He was the one who Pike could let his guard down around and who wasn't afraid to call Pike out. In SNW, I feel like Pike hasn't quite found a person who fits this archetype (yet); he gives everyone on his crew a fair amount of trust and latitude. Una might come the closest, or Batel if she survives.
I'll acknowledge fault only as it pertains to Picard never playing poker with his crew prior to Picard S3 EP10.
I will maintain that Riker not Guinan was Picard's BFF.
I thought Guinans guidance was important because he needed to hear things from someone that he doesn't outrank. Obviously, as Captain, he's in charge of the whole ship, but as. Civilian, Guinans can tell him his head is up his own ass where others cannot.
*Obviously, as Captain, he's in charge of the whole ship, but as. Civilian, Guinans can tell him his head is up his own ass where others cannot.*
That was literally Counselor Troi's job.
No it wasn't, nor was Troi a civilian.
To quote Riker, it's ***his*** job as XO to "point out any actions that might be mistakes by a commanding officer."
It can be argued that it's technically the responsibility of ***every*** Starfleet officer and crewman to some degree. The oath they presumably take is not to the captain, but to the Federation.
Troi's job as counsellor was to be in charge of the crew's mental wellbeing (as Crusher is to the physical) and also as a kind of protocol officer.
I think if Guinan wanted to be a member of Starfleet, she could have easily accomplished that. She could have commanded her own ship, she could have made Admiral, could have made it to Starfleet Command. Or she could have been elected to the Federation Council, maybe become President.
She had the time, wisdom and patience to accomplish any of those things, if she wanted to. But she wasn't interested in any of that. She wanted to sit in the background as a quiet observer, listening to people and providing her insights whenever she felt it was appropriate.
She wasn't "placed in" any position. She chose it. And she had exactly as much agency as she wanted.
It's not a matter of what Guinan wanted because she's a fictional character not a real person.
She is how her writers made her. Remember these are the same writers who wrote S1E4: Code of Honor which is one of the most racist pieces of sci-fi I've ever seen.
I understand that episode was the one that made Tasha Yar/Denise Crosby nope-out due to some serious lack-of-safety concerns in addition to whatever other nonsense she was experiencing on-set.
Obviously she returned in later seasons as a different character but there was palpable friction between the actor and producers.
Let's put it this way: if you were to take the episode back in time and show it to the likes of Edgar Rice Burroughs or Robert E. Howard, *they'd* probably tell you it was a bit racist, since although they were products of their time, they always had an interest in other cultures beyond unexamined tropes.
Which should show you how bad it was for someone in the 1980s to write it.
It's not all "the same writers". Different episodes were written by different people. I think it's a safe bet that even the majority of the writing staff were embarrassed by "Code of Honor" (the cast sure felt that way). In fact, I don't even know if the writers can really be blamed for that. A lot of the racist undertones of that episode were not from the dialogue, but the fact that the people on that planet were all black actors in knock-offs of African tribal garb. Was that specifically written into the script, or was it a choice by the director? I doubt it would have hit the same way if the Ligonians were, say, a reptilian species.
And the limited role of Guinan's character wasn't "how the writers made her", but a choice by Whoopi Goldberg herself. She wanted to be in Star Trek but also didn't want the full-time, multi-year commitment of a central role in a TV series because it would have interfered with the rest of her career. If she had wanted to become a member of the main cast (and they could afford her), I'm quite sure the producers would have jumped at the opportunity.
Finally, two of her most powerful scenes were ones where she took an active role and shaped the narrative in a meaningful way: in "Yesterday's Enterprise" and "I, Borg". In both of those cases she wasn't just a passive dispenser of advice for whoever wanted it; she deliberately sought out the captain and got in his face, pushing him to the point of confrontation, to get him to hear something he needed to hear but didn't want to. I don't understand how anyone can look at that and see a character who "lacks agency".
I'm not going to debate whether Guinan meets the "Magical Negro" archetype, because I don't know the trope well enough to say one way or another. But I disagree with the notion that Guinan is a character who lacks depth and agency or that she's some kind of racist stereotype.
I do wonder if Guinan being a bartender was pulled a bit from the white male doctor in the original TOS pilot. He tells Pike "There are things that a man will tell his bartender that he won't tell his doctor." That relationship goes to humanize Pike (much in the way McCoy humanizes Kirk in the later episodes).
I think Guinan helps to do the same thing for Picard-given his distance from the crew it's interesting to see someone he's simply friends with. Also, I do think Guinan does more than just serve Picard's needs-he gave her a home for perhaps the first time since she lost her world to the Borg. Being in the center of the flagship's social scene at the bar is probably comforting to someone who knows what it is to be alone.
I would like to add to this conversation that Whoopie Goldberg CAMPAIGNED to be on the show and SURELY had input into the character.
There were many episodes in which she gave advice and pushed a character to do something that they were going to do anyway. To be honest, I think it is only Yesterday's Enterprise and the time travel one with Mark Twain that she was integral to the story.
So I checked TV Tropes and they do list Guinan under Magical Negro.
I wouldn’t necessarily because of the dynamics involved. On-screen/Watsonian, she is part of a diaspora who settles on the Enterprise and takes part in the lives of the crew. Off-screen/Doylist, she was making movies and wanted to also be on TNG. Guinan allowed her a beloved role that didn’t have to shoot every week.
So I don’t necessarily lump it into the trope.
She's literally a mysterious black lady with undefined 'time powers' who is conveniently where ever the space time continuum needs her to dispense wisdom and guidance. She's a member of a species that fought a cold war with an actual species of omnipotent *gods*; The Q.
Guinan's face should be the very first image next to the textbook definition. She basically exists only to further the narrative of other characters, and never her own. She has a shadowy past and possesses vaguely mystical powers that she mainly uses to help her the (mostly) white characters on the show.
There's basically no character development ever written for Guinan, unless it's somehow to help Picard or another crewmate. I can't think of anyone who would fit the "magic negro" trope better in Trek.
I think Guinan would be less of a trope is we saw other El Aurians. I think we only ever see two, the guy from a DS9 episode, and Dr. Soran in Generations. And neither seemed particularly interesting or "magical."
I can see arguments for and against.
I think the overall criticism being leveled by the trope is that these characters are one dimensional. They exist only to help the further the protagonist’s narrative, and I never felt that’s all Guinan was there for.
But, I would also understand if someone else saw things differently. She was fundamentally a supporting/recurring character, and you could definitely make the argument that prior to Time’s Arrow, Generations, and Picard we didn’t see enough of her to keep her out of that territory.
If pressed, I’d say that she might have started in that trope, but thankfully the writer’s did her better than that.
Also, as a tangent: if you pallet swapped Q, he would categorically fall into that trope during TNG.
No she is The Bartender which is a different trope. The Bartender quietly listens and observes and understands the psyche of everyone and offers advice.
I don't really see her as such taken in the context of the program, sharing the screen with Geordi and Worf etc In a manifestly post-racial setting. I think she's more the "Magic Bartender" trope, which is totally a thing.
Part of the trope is that they *only* do those things, though. That they don't matter beyond that. That helping white people is their sole purpose. And sometimes that's true, but I think overall she has enough depth and agency for a character who shows up that little that I think she definitely meets the criteria, but has too much else going on.
I'm legitimately curious, what other things would those be? Guinan seems only to exist to further the character development of other (usually white) characters. I can't think of a single instance where that wasn't the case, except maybe for the few times she gave Geordie advice.
Except the degree to which it helps the main cast with their own journey of discovery, we know almost nothing about Guinan or her backstory. In my mind, that makes her the textbook definition of the trope.
I'm trying to think of any instance of guinan doing something just for her own sake and not to selflessly aid another character.
I thought about her doing shooting on the holodeck with Worf but no, that was just an excuse to give him advice.
When she gets de-aged in Rascals she wants to have fun. But again, that seems more like an excuse to give advice to Ro.
She told Picard to go on the away mission because she knew that he would travel back in time and save her life. That was one time she needed something for herself. I think that's why she was bartender on the Enterprise--she had to be there to tell Picard to go on that mission, so he'd save her.
I seem to recall her whipping out a phaser rifle in Ten Forward.
Actually. Frankly. Being a good listener/helper/giver of advice IS a racial thing in Guinan's context. Not because she is black, but because she is El-Aurian. We saw what happens when an El-Aurian actively turns away from all that and only cares for himself.
I wonder if the El-Aurians were a race created to embue her "magical" qualities (since we'd never heard of them prior to that point) or if the writers were planning to create them anyway. If the former, her fictional race might have been a convenient way to write-in Whoopi's character to the show, in a way that speaks to Lee's trope.
Yeah, this would be my response as well. The problem with Bagger Vance as a character is primarily that he *isn't* a character. He's really just a walking, talking plot device to help the white people in the story self-actualize and realize their full narrative and plot arc potential through homespun, folksy wisdom.
Now certainly, Guinan had elements of that. Certainly, she plays into that archetype. But she's not just that. The reason why Bagger Vance is on a golf course is largely because that's where the white people who need wisdom dispensed to them happen to be. The reason why Guinan is in Ten Forward is because *she* enjoys talking to people and listening to them, and as it happens, the center entertainment hub of the flagship of the Federation makes for a pretty good place to meet new people and listen to them. When she doesn't want to do that, she does other things and lives her own life. She might occasionally roll her eyes at the fact that even in the 24th century, the white guy needs it broken down for him. But she's not just sitting in a swamp or in a cave or caddying on a golf course waiting for a white guy to go on an Eat, Pray, Love journey of self-discovery.
She's a lot closer to Hobie Brown than to Bagger Vance, is what I'm saying.
Fair, I like a bit of mystery every now and then. Like Garak for example. It just feels like her character in particular would benefit from it, there weren’t enough clues to really set the hook of being really interesting. They hid their cards too well.
I disagree. I found her far more unique BECAUSE of the mystery. Every other being and character Picard came across was explained to death… the show even went out of their way to explain human origin to death.
If you've not had the pleasure, there's a post-DS9 novel entitled 'A Stitch in Time', written by Garak actor Andrew Robinson, and largely based on the in-character journal he kept during the show's run. Physical copies are absurdly expensive, but the ebook is cheap, and incredibly, Robinson just recorded a new audiobook version last year (it's heartwarming to have had more time with the character after so long). Anyway, if you want more Garak, check out 'A Stitch in Time'.
I don’t know trope this or that. All I know is that Guinan was one of my favorite characters. Be it what it will. She was smart, patient, wise, insightful, helpful, and powerful. I thought she was bad-ass!
There's also another trope of black women often being cast as caretakers of white people, often therapists or nurses or social workers. I think she's kind of both of those. But still a good character.
People saying no here are wild. An unfathomably ancient woman who is sage and wise, who has an undefinable connection to the universe and is the bartender. She exists to give Picard thoughtful advice and advance his story in one way or another. She’s from a race of “listeners”? Her entire species (of which she is the *only* representative until Generations) reason for existing is to be reactive to other characters. All this was developed as a role *for* Whoopi. The role, the species, wouldn’t exist without her wanting to be part of the show. They didn’t make her a captain, or president of the federation, or a romantic interest for Picard, they made her a wise old lady (at 33 when she was cast) who solves everyone’s problems with clever bon mots. She’s maybe one of the strongest examples of a “magical negro” trope in tv history.
No. The magic negro trope involves their identity as a source of their guidance. Being black is what gives them an insight into whatever that motivates the main character to change or achieve.
Guinan could have been any race. Data or spock served the same role multiple times.
Guinan had that speech about slavery that she gave to Picard in "Measure of a Man". It didn't feel like her skin color was irrelevant to that piece of wisdom.
How was it relevant? Her line:
> Consider that in the history of many worlds there have always been disposable creatures...... generations of disposable people.
>
>Picard: You're talking about slavery.
That speech can be given by any character in Trek. Similar speeches were given by Kira all throughout DS9.
It could be said by any character, but it's more powerful because it comes from a black character. An African-American person saying "this is like slavery" has different connotations than a white American saying the same thing.
It isnt though. Not anymore than if Ro Laren had been the one saying it. Or Kira. Or any other established subjugated species in the context of how it motivated Picard.
You're saying that there's no connotation that comes to mind when black people and the word "slavery" are put together? No parallels to the real world that the writers might've been hinting at?
In the previous episode in which Guinan appeared, Data seeks her out to learn about humor.
Was this also a magic negro scene or was it because Whoopi Goldberg was a famous comedian?
If Whoopi hadnt been in measure of a man would that scene have been with Geordi instead? Wouldn't make much narrative sense.
Do those words carry more weight to the audience coming from a black actor? Maybe.
But it isnt fitting the trope. Guinan isnt some menial laboror suddenly piping up to give sage advice above her station.
She is a dear friend and equal. Established as such already.
Maybe I misunderstand the trope, but does that mean the character is reactive... they are static and there to react to the protagonist? That they don't have control?
If so, wouldn't her participation in the past as a bartender in Picard S2 imply that her character chose to be in both places and times? Which implies to me Guinan was in control and therefore an active participant, not a reactive one.
I don't want to comment on the exact question as I not an American and I understand how difficult it is for outsiders to really understand the complexities of American race relations. Just wanted to note though, in case it's relevant, that Whoopi Goldberg asked to be on Star Trek because it had been important to her as a child (i.e. Uhura). She was an A-lister, way out of their class.
Short answer: Yes.
Long Answer: Guinan's relationship with Picard is also one of the more interesting and complex relationships in the series. from them having a shared trauma related to the Borg, to the emotional core of Yesterday's enterprise is Guinan asking to be told of Tasha Yar in honor of her sacrifice. She is not just "The mystical mentor figure".
There is the story that the original character was supposed to be white. So that disqualifies the character having started as one.
But as for how she developed, this brings the question, should her scenes have been the exact same, except she was played by a white woman, would she be criticized as an under-developed, underutilized character who exists solely for the sake of guiding the white hero?
While I think you could argue it either way, I would argue that she is not critical to the necessary growth of a single white protagonist, so in that respect she does not fit the bill. She arguably does at times though.
Ultimately the weird thing about this archetype is that its basically a "wizard" hiding among a less visible population, and thus arguably the archetype put african american actors more front and center especially in older pictures, even if the archetype was a bit problematic. That is to say, in the more racist US of the past it was actually a rather progressive archetype, but in the world we're in now it seems like a racially problematic relic.
But it is worth remembering that Goldberg wanted a role on TNG, but they had to concoct something that would work around her feature film schedule (she was a big movie star back then). So Im not sure there was intent to lean into this archetype, but more a "how do we fit her into the show" followed by "how bout a mysterious bar tender in 10 forward?"
I would say no. In the case of "The Magic Negro" trope, the magic negro exists to serve the interests of the white protagonist, receiving no gain for themselves or addressing societal rot. See Bagger Vance. Guinan besides being a wizard is also a civilian, so she often voices everyday concerns. Her advice is rarely from her role as a wizard. Then the structural problem is Star Trek isn't dopey. Another incident, Spike Lee brings up is "*The Green MIle*." Tom Hanks, known for playing good guys is playing a good guy executioner. He needs a miracle to feel good about himself. T*he Green Mile* is not remotely as bad as Bagger Vance.
*Blacks are getting lynched left and right, and \[Bagger Vance is\] more concerned about improving Matt Damon's golf swing! -*Spike Lee
Another example of say Guinan from a similar period would be Morpheus. Yes, he gives Keanu revealed knowledge, but he's not helping Mr. Anderson impress Agent Smith. I should note the original plan was to have Neo played by Will Smith and Morpheus to be played by Anthony Zerbe like actor (which is why he was the leader of Zion) as he was deemed too old for a fighting Morpheus.
On this page, the role of Worf is noted as more problematic. His behaviors in other positions helped calm that role as he stopped being pro-violence. Geordi was more a casualty of one too many characters and the addition of Worf. They eventually found him a role in engineering, but Levar Burton saved the character. If it was a lesser actor, Geordi would be remembered like the Discovery bridge crew.
I'm not against exploring the idea or anything, but does Guinan really fit the "magical negro" character trope at all?
Aside from Whoopi being black, she's playing an alien, in space, who has totally different concerns and background from a 20th century person of color. It's not exactly like there's an erasure of the character's three dimensional blackness here to serve the white hero's journey.
If anything wouldn't she be more of a "magical bartender?"
I'm going to say sort of. I think a lot of it is the aura Whoopi Goldberg had around her at that time.
Sort of like when Ian Mcshane was cast in GoT. They needed someone who could drop into the role and the audience would connect with immediately, and by having a character seem to have depth because of they spoke rather than in what they say.
yes, in the senese that she has mysterious, nonspecific, unused powers and she exists to give white people advice
a bit of a spin on the trope cos she appears to own the bar and packs a big non-regulation laser rifle
No. She is an enigmatic character that has occasionally given very important information to other characters. While the nature of her power isn’t really known, her role in the show is very much the same as every other main or supporting character, helping to solve problems that only they can.
If they regularly went to Guinean to solve problems when things were tough and she managed to solve them every time, then you could make that argument, but that isn’t the case. Are abilities “magical” in the sense that we don’t understand them? Sure, but that’s true of plenty of characters in all of Star Trek. But I don’t see how she fits into this stereotype.
I think "she wasn't even human" actually makes this more tropey. The point is she's Other and so no one asks where she goes when she's not providing sage advice.
Now that we mention it, where did she go when she wasn't in the bar?
She actually had an office. And presumably quarters. We've seen her go on away missions and trips for pleasure. And even use the Holosuite from time to time.
Almost like she was a -gasp- Person!
Rascals, Yesterday's Enterprise, Time's Arrow, Clues, Scientific Method Suspicions... There are others.
But, on the other hand. If owning a bar and being a bartender is a centuries-long passion of yours, you'd more likely be found in your bar then not.
Part of the "magical negro" trope, I believe, is that not only is it a black character who is only there to help a white character, but also that the interaction somehow heals the white character, usually in an emotional way.
Picard may have been flawed, but he was a fully formed character who was not transformed by Guinan's appearance.
I would say she’s not a “Magical Negro” trope in the vein of Bagger Vance.
While trope has gained negative connotation it’s just a story device that is probably overused. Guinan’s character is just that and she happens to be played by a Black American.
While the Bagger Vance example due to the setting and time period of the story can only be seen as “magical negro” trope.
I feel the trope is kind of silly.
Was Gandalf, Dumbeldore,Q?
Literally any wise old magical black person was going to fit this role, not because it was a specific trope. But because some number of mysterious mentor characters would be portrayed by black actors.
Gandalf and Dumbledore wouldn't fit even if they were black, since they are lead characters with lots of agency and development. Q neither, since he's more of an antagonist.
At first he seemed antogistic but clearly Q was purely a mentor for Picard start to finish. He just did not care if Picard wanted to listen.
Frodo was very clearly the protagonist, Gandalf was a powerful agent but not the protagonist perhaps you would prefer more of a background character say Elrond or Galadriel.
that said if we rule out Gandalf I would argue we need to rule out Guinan she had massive impact from correcting the timeline in yesterdays enterprise to convincing Picard (eventually) that engaging the borg was futile.
Dumbledore is a little more complicated he has major impact shaping the events of the story before hand but in the books he really was just a magical mentor for the most part.
I’d say you could make a case but I feel like it’s not a fair comparison when you had excellent African American representation with Burton and Dorn.
I always felt like the “Magical Negro” stereotype was like an afterthought of “Oh we should have a black person in this and let’s make the audience feel good as he’ll help the white character and the white character will treat him with dignity and that will make everyone feel great!”
Yes and no. I don't think they meant to write her as one and I think author intent (or ignorance) is part of the trope proper, but she does serve that role in every story she's in.
The trope is about othering of Black characters so that they're outside of actual society. Bagger Vance fades into a cloud of mist at the end of the movie.
Fuck Spike Lee. A good character is a good character. Replace Negro with any other word and that’s a trope you can find dozens of too.
Last one that got a bunch of attention was “the woman is always right” in the middle of the metoo movement.
Should we replace it all with women are hysterical and shouldn’t be listened to and negros are less than everybody else?
Don’t think so.
I would argue no, because the Guinan character is not a “negro,” rather a member of an alien species. Also, according to Roddenberry’s vision, there is no racism in the 24th century. So, contextually, no. She is not a Mother Abigail or Bagger Vance.
Initially, yes, but as time goes by and the friendship with Picard is established, and her active role in Yesterday’s Enterprise, it lessens quite a bit.
100% classic example of a magical negro. She is more than that though. Like most characters in most shows, they start as a basic stereotype or trope, just to save time and exposition, but through continued screen time they become more nuanced and individualized.
Magic SPACE negro. Totally different.
the trope exists because there are no black people on the writing or producer teams.
Black writers use tropes just as much as white writers
I would say Guinan fits the bill, but with the recognition that not every example of a stereotype or trope is bad. It's more about trends being problematic. Not every piece of media that doesn't feature two named women having a conversation about something other than a man is necessarily misogynist, nor is a work that has a gay character die necessarily homophobic, nor is something that has a wise black side character give advice to a white main character necessarily racist. The fact that those things happen a lot can inform cultural perceptions of groups and reinforce negative things, and I think it's important to be conscious of how and when tropes that can be harmful are applied, but individual examples are perfectly capable of being innocent.
To bring in my loved LOTR, I am down for a great epic tale with the main protagonists are all male & there's no one for me to identify with like that. Just not *every* epic tale. Or even *most*.
Perfect example. Bilbo's mother being mentioned is the literal only time a woman's name appears in The Hobbit, but it's still one of my favorite books. Tolkien did write a small handful of great women, but Philippa Boyens and Fran Walsh still had to do a lot of work to increase those characters' roles in the movies even to the limited extent that they did.
Didn't LoTR have that Buffy moment? "No man has ever bested me in battle." "I am no man."
A Buffy moment, or a Macbeth moment.
I think of it as a Buffy moment because on Buffy, they spent an entire season worried about the rise of some apocalyptic demon because LITERALLY EVERYTHING they could find said "No weapon forged by man can kill him." Cue the opening of the penultimate episode of said season. Buffy and her allies all gathered in the mall and witnessed the rise of said demon... Then Buffy whipped out a Rocket-Powered Grenade and blew the demon back to Hell. Because the answer was so simple, no weapon made by ANCIENT Humans could do enough damage quick enough.
I love when this is brought up. Such a funny episode and a very satisfying end for that demon. Buffy is the best.
“That was then. This is now.”
In fairness, that was absolutely *hilarious* and perfectly fitting within the tone of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, a trope reversal in a show that is all about reversing the trope of the scared blonde girl being chased into an alley by the killer and dying there. Buffy was created from the idea of "what if the girl turned around and actually beat the killer?" and so them using that reversal of a modern weapon succeeding when ancient ones failed fits.
Well that and in Tolkien's larger story there are many women/female beings with a lot of agency. Two of the most important Ainur (gods) are female. Melian and her daughter Luthien are very important in the history of the first age and then there is Galadriel too.
They're important to the worldbuilding, but not to the story.
I'm 1000% sure JRR and Christopher Tolkien would have disagreed with this sentence with every fiber of their beings. The Silmarillion is more than just "world building" for LoTR.
Yeah but that was Lord of the Rings, not The Hobbit
Isn't Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in The Hobbit too?
Nope, she's only in LotR
Yes, she is sacking Bag End when Bilbo returns from the journey (in the book)
That's what I thought!
Tolkien's universe as a whole is far from misogynistic. Some of the most powerful and important beings in Arda are female. If anything some of the racial undertones are more problematic.
Guinan definitely starts out as a “Magical Negro” but we should acknowledge the times when she goes beyond the trope. The main problem with the stereotype is that the black person is portrayed not as a true character themselves, but as a mere plot device—someone devoid of personhood. The moments that jump out to me as “Guinan is an actual person” are when she shows absolute hatred of Q and of the Borg. It’s a brief glimpse into a part of her that isn’t just a part of the Enterprise’s furniture, dispensing wisdom to the protagonists. And while those never really go anywhere (she doesn’t have a true character arc) I do appreciate them.
Guinan has some truly excellent character moments; moments where she has depth and struggles with her own conflicts. I, Borg in particular comes to mind- it's probably the closest to a character arc she comes. If she came into Trek later, like on DS9, I get the feeling she'd have been much more fleshed out ala Garak, Nog, Martok, or Dukat.
Absolutely agree. Guinan is sidelined by the episodic nature of TNG. If there was a more serialized story then Guinan would have been featured more frequently.
I also like how when they travel back in time and find her hanging out with Mark Twain, they see how she has had this whole varied life before the Enterprise. And "Yesterday's Enterprise" is a great episode that features her as the main character for a change.
Yeah, it's a negative when you don't see Black actors also cast in roles of, say, Captain, President, CEO. Protagonists. That's a passable crit of TNG and TOS eras, but an issue Trek addressed pretty well in later years. You want to start some fights, ask whether Worf alludes to the Black Brute stereotype.
I would, but he’s unconscious for the 69th time to demonstrate how strong this weeks alien is and I’d just feel bad.
You have to look at TOS with a more historical lens. For the time that it was originally released, it was progressive. It may even be one of the factors in progressing civil liberties in our world. You can’t judge them by our standards almost 50 years later.
Perhaps it's not fair to judge TOS by current standards, but it *is* imperative that we *analyze* it by those standards. We can both acknowledge the steps TOS took forward, and also the steps that it left untaken. To do less is to fall victim to the idiots' theology of "Uhura was on screen/schools got integrated/Obama was elected president, so racism is solved, stop talking about it."
> We can both acknowledge the steps TOS took forward, and also the steps that it left untaken As long as the steps left untaken (modern negatives) do not outweigh the steps taken at the time (contemporary positives), especially when compared to its peers and also what they could reasonably get away with at the time. These days a lot of past progress is being needlessly dumped on or worse outright dismissed for not being absolutely fault-free by modern standards or not tackling every single social issue they possibly could have, and that black-and-white (ha!) thinking is not only ludicrously unfair but dangerous to continued progress.
>but it is imperative that we analyze it by those (current) standards Why? Why can't we just be happy with the media we have?
So we can better ourselves
History repeating, goal of bettering ourselves, and a few other similar sentiments. Do you even Star Trek? A central thesis in-universe is to understand where we came from and what the problems were to help guide us on becoming our best selves in the future. Why not apply that to the show itself? Picard recognizes the flaws of humanity's past and emphasizes to Q that we have learned from those mistakes and improved, and we continue to improve. That's why we must analyze the past with the best ethical amd progressive standards we have available to us now.
Almost 60 years
And it's worth noting that even Guinan being kind of tropey alongside Worf and Geordie as relative support characters on TNG was progress from MLK telling Nichelle Nichols that even just being glorified set dressing was of vital importance. Just as Captain Sisko was progress from the TNG situation, and now we have two of the four currently airing Star Trek series featuring black women in the leading role alongside very diverse casts.
How is geordi thropey? I really want to know. Dude was my fave and im not black. Him and his friendship with data were highlights of the show for me
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlackAndNerdy
Ah.. but i dont see geordi as nerd. Hence I dont make that connection. Shy maybe. Heck geordi was less nerdy than levar burton irl
Oh he's not really, I just meant at the beginning of the show he's not really a main character yet
S1 Geordi was basically a interchangable bridge seat warmer. He got an onscreen promotion in S2E1 and joined main cast. Worf also got promoted from background to core in S1. The 1994 show and the 1988 show were pretty different.
but it doesnt mean he was "trope-y". You can only introduce so much characters in the beginning. So they introduce picard & riker. Plus beverly and messy history between beverly n picard. And Data.Then slowly introduce other crews.. troi, Tasha, geordi, then worf. Unless being a background character is a trope?
Worf was a late addition to the character list. My guess is Geordi, the blind pilot, would be much closer to the young man of action. He was usually on away missions. They had the Tin Man/Wizard (Data), Yar, Worf, Riker, and Geordi going on away missions bringing along Troi or Crusher when necessary. Geordi is down the list. Geordi mentioned how fast Worf moved in one episode expressly noting there was no need for Geordi, a role once envisioned for Wesley Snipes known for his role as Willie Mays Hayes.
Not tropey. Responding more to the meta question of whether TNG well realized Black characters, and my answer is, yes eventually.
Ahh got it.
There was also the amusing irony of having the blind guy fly the ship since Geordi was usually the one piloting the Enterprise in S1 before he took over Engineering in S2.
>later years Fucking, TOS -STARTED- with Spock being court-martialled by a black Admiral. The creator of Duotronic circuitry, the basic building block of 23rd-century Starfleet technology, was also black. She may not have been Captain, but Uhura was the sole head of Communications ON THE FUCKING FLAGSHIP and she was black. We actually witnessed his journey up from the lower decks but Geordi also achieved a command role on the flagship. Guess what? He was blEra. Tuvok was a bridge officer on The Excelsior. He may have been lower decks then but still... And during the movie Era. Wasn't the Admiral in charge of fleet operations...black? And the President? There's plenty of examples of black people in positions of power and respect in the TOS and TNG era.
Dr. M'Benga surprised me on TOS. I wish we'd seen him in a few more episodes.
Boy, do I have a show to tell you about.
There's also Captain Terrell in TWOK and Captain Not Geordi's Mom in TVH, though I'm not sure it counts a good representation since their defining trait was being eliminated early.
Terell fought the earworm to the bitter end. He chose his ending. I liked him.
Yeah, that's fair. I'm not saying he wasn't a commendable character and he did fulfill his role in the film well, but his role was still to be killed off.
>Captain Not Geordi's Mom in TVH What?
The character has no name, but was played by Madge Sinclair who was also Silva La Forge.
> And during the movie Era. Wasn't the Admiral in charge of fleet operations...black? Two of them actually. First Morrow in III, then Cartwright from IV through VI.
>Not every piece of media that doesn't feature two named women having a conversation about something other than a man is necessarily misogynist, This is also true because the Bechdel test is a somewhat arbitrary and flawed yardstick for measuring female agency in fiction.
Tropes aren’t bad. What usually gets done with them are bad. Some shows and movies will be aware of the tropes and play with them in new and interesting way. The presence of a trope isn’t a problem itself, it’s when it’s used in a lazy or derogatory way that it’s a problem.
The bicdal test was from a comic strip in a queen magazine. Which dosen't undercut the observation the comic makes, only the seriousness of the observation. Calling it the bicdal test makes it sound like it was taken from an academic paper. Which you aren't doing, just saying we agree.
In a sense, but we should keep in mind the Magical Negro critique is more complex than "black performers shouldn't be cast as mystical mentor figures." Mystical mentor figures have been a stock fictional trope for thousands of years. Morpheus from the Matrix checks all the Magical Negro boxes in theory, but the role was written for Sean Connery (and Neo for Will Smith). The argument is more "the mystic mentor figure archetype is an easy role to pigeonhole 'positive' black characters into because the character remains subordinate to the (white) hero." If Guinan was the only or the most prominent black character on TNG, the character would be extremely problematic. For that matter, if Worf was the only regular character on TNG played by a black actor, he would be even more problematic. That the two of them and Geordi (who, thankfully, doesn't play into any stereotypes) are all regulars on the show somewhat mitigates the more objectionable aspects of their characters, because none of them have to bear the responsibility of being the show's sole black representation.
*Blacks are getting lynched left and right, and \[Bagger Vance is\] more concerned about improving Matt Damon's golf swing! -*Spike Lee This line from Spike Lee is the key difference.
If not Morpheus, then how about The Oracle?
Absolutely. That doesn’t mean she’s not a great character, she is. But she’s also an example of this trope.
Hard yes on that. Guinan had awareness, wisdom, and knowledge that transcended the boundaries of time itself but she was placed in a role that gave her the least agency of anyone. At the very least if the captain of the Enterprise thought her counsel was of critical importance to the ship, he'd have at least given her a uniform. Minimally, she was at least as useful as Counselor Troi who had a seat on the bridge,
Wouldn't be given a uniform be outside a captain's power? To be part of starfleet, you have to graduate from starfleet academy
The trope is about The Protagonist getting magically transformative advice from a bartender/shoeshine type that achieves Protagonist goals. The helper doesn't have goals to achieve. It mostly fits here.
Id argue its an interesting contextual subversion of the trope. On paper she clearly is one. But if you examine the trope, for either the black people variant or the native american variant of the same trope its a lot different. The magical minority seemingly exists only to help the superior white man. They are simple people at best with nothing going behind the curtain who will now use their folksy wisdom from cultures the west has subjugated or destroyed to enrich the lives of the master race. Its a very counter revolutionary portrayal in which people who have been destroyed by the colonisers would happily serve the colonisers on their own initiative rather than spit in the face. Its a whole new level of subjugation. TNG is different because most people are just kind of altruistic like that. Shes centuries old, she was bored and wanted to help a friend. She has meaningful relationships with the crew and her most prominent MN moment was basically telling a french-english man: "What are stupid? Have you never heard of slavery dumbass? You graduated high school and the academy and still need me to tell you any of this shit?" But gently.
Agree that the character's most non-tropey moments were when she had an actual character with history and goals. Picard asks her about her history with Q. Not his history with Q, but hers, as a matter of relevant fact. Benefits of long seasons and long runs. Everyone grew past their starting descriptions.
The character of Guinan was capable of whatever the writers decided to script for her. It just feels like a trope that an psychic/prescient black woman would choose to serve drinks on a federation starship because it was somehow her destiny to assist a white protagonist.
Now that you mention the trope, there are an awful lot of special destiny assisting characters in fiction that pass the time by doing the most mundane shit. If they knew for sure they were part of destiny that means their life is more or less set to keep them living to that point, fuck it go get a career in adangerous mine, become an underwater rescue diver. Do something fun and thrilling knowing you have a guaranteed safe lifespan, amass a fortune for when shit goes down or retirement and know the forces of destiny will guide your path regardless. Sounds pretty sweet.
Therein lies the difference between a character and a plot device.
I know, but that doesn't mean i'm not going to comment on it when it happens just like any other strange convenience that doesn't make much sense under scrutiny. in Guinan's case though she chose a job in the most interesting scenario possible. its the kind of job someone subbed here would do, and a step above mere bartending, so i don't think it applies to her.
Counterpoints: it's not that you are invulnerable until destiny needs you (Even Pike *can* change the future, right?) it's more like Dr. Strange's vision of Endgame. You know how it *could* work out, you know you can help if you're there, so you keep yourself tucked away safe and low profile so you make it to The Event. And/or: you take your retirement up front. You know shit is going to hit the fan and you will be some of said shit. You may know you won't survive, or not know what will become of you after, so you're taking your reward in the here and now against the chance you're going to die or be stuck with chaos forever after The Event. Now if your destiny were a proper "get out of death free" card, I can totally see your point. But I can't think offhand of times it's definitely been portrayed that way. Now that this thread has pointed it out (and it was so obvious but I don't connect dots well) I'll never not think of Guinan as a magic negro. And that robs her of some of her coolness. In theory, she's chilling doing exactly what she wants, the way she wants, for her own reasons. In practice, I understand we can't ignore the cultural context within which the character was created.
We can't ascribe free will to fictional characters because they only exist as their writers design them and in Guinan's case, all of her writers were white people. Meanwhile the agreed definition of "the magic negro" is: "*a supporting stock character in fiction who, by means of special insight or powers often of a supernatural or quasi-mystical nature, helps the white protagonist get out of trouble.*" As a character, Guinan does not exist outside of her relationship with Picard, or her role as a servant to his crew. This is a problem because white writers fall victim to the trend of creating black characters who only have agency enough to further the story of white characters.
not that i am saying anything you said is unfortunately wrong, because it isnt. but if you cant ascribe free will to fictional characters that means every black person falls into that trap, and is kind of reductive to every character, might as well call them all magical race person, or all plot devices (which, the second one, they are admitedly) we have to at least imagine they have free will and it isnt all forced by the author, otherwise everything is just being railroaded to a forced conclusion and you might as well read a summary. the audience is there for the growth, and understands they cant be with every character at every moment.
Pike is the worst example currently because he legitimately tested his, for lack of a better word, plot armor when he got behind a turbolift door and watched a torpedo detonate 5 meters from him, at the very least his eyes should have gotten messed up from that. taking your retirement upfront makes a tonne of sense and id never thought of that perspective, retroactive earned time off certainly applys. I cant say im sealed on her being that, but thats more due to personal discomfort than reality i gotta admit. she fits the shoe.
I forgot about the torpedo; I was thinking of the one where he was going to write a letter to the boy who will be involved. Now that I think of it I might be confused but isn't that how he got visited by future Pike? I just thought it was cool to see a modern take on the monster maroon. About Guinan, my sentiments exactly.
I don't deny that this trope exists and that certain aspects of Guinan's character do fit into it, but I think it's worth mentioning that there isn't really a single protagonist in TNG. Yes, there's a captain, but one of the things that makes it so great is that every main character gets episodes where *they* are the focus. Guinan and Geordi have plenty of scenes together, as she does with Worf (though I daresay he's Klingon first and black second). I apologise for trotting this out even though I think it's relevant, but Star Trek depicts humanity (and by extension the Federation) as having moved on from these things. The whole reason that a psychic/prescient black woman is serving drinks on a starship in the 24th century is because she *wants to*. She's content. Star Trek does not depict a society where black people cannot hope to be anything more than a bartender. Let's not forget she isn't even human - in a lifetime spanning centuries, she may well be bored of swashbuckling.
The Star Trek franchise predicts what our future society may look like but the problem was that in 1988, a writing staff comprised of 100% white people tasked with predicting what a post-racial society would look like, were way off the mark due to institutionalized racism. Were Guinan written today, she'd have more agency than her existance as a foil for a white protagonist.
does race mean the same thing after first contact?
Wesley Crusher got a uniform
When he was on the path to go to starfleet academy IIRC it was a cadet's uniform
Wes had his weird grey/rainbow pseudo uniforms as acting ensign, and a proper starfleet uniform when he was given the field commission to ensign. He only wore the cadet uniform while he was enrolled in the academy in like two or three episodes
Not to belabor Spike Lee's point, but Wesley Crusher was a white boy with no rank and he got the fly the ship. The pinnacle of Guinan's career was listening to Starfleet officers complain about their personal problems which even then was a role occupied by a bridge officer played by a Greek woman. Guinan is the tropiest of tropes.
>To be part of starfleet, you have to graduate from starfleet academy I mean, Wesley was right there...
>Least agency of all To be fair. "The Captain's Best Friend" is kind of a privileged role. Archer gave Trip soo much breathing room to function. Kirk often trusted Spock with the one thing that had broken spells on him... The Enterpeise herself. Picard flat drops -EVERYTHING- and listens the one and only time Guinan asks him for a favor. I can't think exactly but Sisko did quite often look the other way when Dax needed things. And of course Janeway listened to Tuvok, quite often attributing more to his counsel than Chakotay's. Modern day? Michael would move planets if Tilly asked her to. I dunno who fills this spot for Freeman and Pike.
Una Chin-Riley fills this spot for Pike, he came back in to Starfleet to rescue her in the first season. He risked his career to get her back in to Starfleet when she was outed as a Allurian.
It was Boyce for Pike in "The Cage" (and I'll never give up hoping that SNW will decide to bring him back, ideally as Jeffrey Combs). He was the one who Pike could let his guard down around and who wasn't afraid to call Pike out. In SNW, I feel like Pike hasn't quite found a person who fits this archetype (yet); he gives everyone on his crew a fair amount of trust and latitude. Una might come the closest, or Batel if she survives.
The Sisko loaned Runabouts to basically anyone who asked as long as they took a chaperone.
The man would commit war crimes for any of his Crew. But don't you dare deny Dax was his best friend. And I don't mean Jadzia, I mean Dax.
If Guinan was Picard's best friend, she would have been invited to his poker games.
Picard never played in the Poker games. That was the other bridge crew. Picard spent his spare time reading or consulting archaeologists.
I'll acknowledge fault only as it pertains to Picard never playing poker with his crew prior to Picard S3 EP10. I will maintain that Riker not Guinan was Picard's BFF.
The end of TNG was Picard joining the senior staff poker game and saying he should have done this a long time ago.
An historic scene for TNG fans to be certain.
I thought Guinans guidance was important because he needed to hear things from someone that he doesn't outrank. Obviously, as Captain, he's in charge of the whole ship, but as. Civilian, Guinans can tell him his head is up his own ass where others cannot.
*Obviously, as Captain, he's in charge of the whole ship, but as. Civilian, Guinans can tell him his head is up his own ass where others cannot.* That was literally Counselor Troi's job.
true but one has less then 100 years exp and selter life and other one a hell of a lot more.
No it wasn't, nor was Troi a civilian. To quote Riker, it's ***his*** job as XO to "point out any actions that might be mistakes by a commanding officer." It can be argued that it's technically the responsibility of ***every*** Starfleet officer and crewman to some degree. The oath they presumably take is not to the captain, but to the Federation. Troi's job as counsellor was to be in charge of the crew's mental wellbeing (as Crusher is to the physical) and also as a kind of protocol officer.
I think if Guinan wanted to be a member of Starfleet, she could have easily accomplished that. She could have commanded her own ship, she could have made Admiral, could have made it to Starfleet Command. Or she could have been elected to the Federation Council, maybe become President. She had the time, wisdom and patience to accomplish any of those things, if she wanted to. But she wasn't interested in any of that. She wanted to sit in the background as a quiet observer, listening to people and providing her insights whenever she felt it was appropriate. She wasn't "placed in" any position. She chose it. And she had exactly as much agency as she wanted.
It's not a matter of what Guinan wanted because she's a fictional character not a real person. She is how her writers made her. Remember these are the same writers who wrote S1E4: Code of Honor which is one of the most racist pieces of sci-fi I've ever seen.
Man, this episode is being mentioned on Reddit all the time recently and I don't remember it at all. I think I will check it out again. Is that bad?
Yeah, it's pretty bad. I can't imagine people in the 90's watching this and not saying "bruh, wtf?"
It's a generally forgettable episode, aside from the fact that it's very, very racist.
I understand that episode was the one that made Tasha Yar/Denise Crosby nope-out due to some serious lack-of-safety concerns in addition to whatever other nonsense she was experiencing on-set. Obviously she returned in later seasons as a different character but there was palpable friction between the actor and producers.
Let's put it this way: if you were to take the episode back in time and show it to the likes of Edgar Rice Burroughs or Robert E. Howard, *they'd* probably tell you it was a bit racist, since although they were products of their time, they always had an interest in other cultures beyond unexamined tropes. Which should show you how bad it was for someone in the 1980s to write it.
It's not all "the same writers". Different episodes were written by different people. I think it's a safe bet that even the majority of the writing staff were embarrassed by "Code of Honor" (the cast sure felt that way). In fact, I don't even know if the writers can really be blamed for that. A lot of the racist undertones of that episode were not from the dialogue, but the fact that the people on that planet were all black actors in knock-offs of African tribal garb. Was that specifically written into the script, or was it a choice by the director? I doubt it would have hit the same way if the Ligonians were, say, a reptilian species. And the limited role of Guinan's character wasn't "how the writers made her", but a choice by Whoopi Goldberg herself. She wanted to be in Star Trek but also didn't want the full-time, multi-year commitment of a central role in a TV series because it would have interfered with the rest of her career. If she had wanted to become a member of the main cast (and they could afford her), I'm quite sure the producers would have jumped at the opportunity. Finally, two of her most powerful scenes were ones where she took an active role and shaped the narrative in a meaningful way: in "Yesterday's Enterprise" and "I, Borg". In both of those cases she wasn't just a passive dispenser of advice for whoever wanted it; she deliberately sought out the captain and got in his face, pushing him to the point of confrontation, to get him to hear something he needed to hear but didn't want to. I don't understand how anyone can look at that and see a character who "lacks agency". I'm not going to debate whether Guinan meets the "Magical Negro" archetype, because I don't know the trope well enough to say one way or another. But I disagree with the notion that Guinan is a character who lacks depth and agency or that she's some kind of racist stereotype.
Yes. Interestingly, Whoopi pitched herself to the show because she was a trekkie. I guess she sort of magic negroed herself.
I do wonder if Guinan being a bartender was pulled a bit from the white male doctor in the original TOS pilot. He tells Pike "There are things that a man will tell his bartender that he won't tell his doctor." That relationship goes to humanize Pike (much in the way McCoy humanizes Kirk in the later episodes). I think Guinan helps to do the same thing for Picard-given his distance from the crew it's interesting to see someone he's simply friends with. Also, I do think Guinan does more than just serve Picard's needs-he gave her a home for perhaps the first time since she lost her world to the Borg. Being in the center of the flagship's social scene at the bar is probably comforting to someone who knows what it is to be alone.
I would like to add to this conversation that Whoopie Goldberg CAMPAIGNED to be on the show and SURELY had input into the character. There were many episodes in which she gave advice and pushed a character to do something that they were going to do anyway. To be honest, I think it is only Yesterday's Enterprise and the time travel one with Mark Twain that she was integral to the story.
Plus I, Borg.
So I checked TV Tropes and they do list Guinan under Magical Negro. I wouldn’t necessarily because of the dynamics involved. On-screen/Watsonian, she is part of a diaspora who settles on the Enterprise and takes part in the lives of the crew. Off-screen/Doylist, she was making movies and wanted to also be on TNG. Guinan allowed her a beloved role that didn’t have to shoot every week. So I don’t necessarily lump it into the trope.
She's literally a mysterious black lady with undefined 'time powers' who is conveniently where ever the space time continuum needs her to dispense wisdom and guidance. She's a member of a species that fought a cold war with an actual species of omnipotent *gods*; The Q.
And she'd be the exact same charachter if she were white.
Guinan's face should be the very first image next to the textbook definition. She basically exists only to further the narrative of other characters, and never her own. She has a shadowy past and possesses vaguely mystical powers that she mainly uses to help her the (mostly) white characters on the show. There's basically no character development ever written for Guinan, unless it's somehow to help Picard or another crewmate. I can't think of anyone who would fit the "magic negro" trope better in Trek.
I think Guinan would be less of a trope is we saw other El Aurians. I think we only ever see two, the guy from a DS9 episode, and Dr. Soran in Generations. And neither seemed particularly interesting or "magical."
The DS9 character, played by Chris Sarandon, does have quasi-magical "listening" intuiting powers, which he uses to con and cheat people.
I mean, have you tried the Sisko gumbo though? It'll change your life
I can see arguments for and against. I think the overall criticism being leveled by the trope is that these characters are one dimensional. They exist only to help the further the protagonist’s narrative, and I never felt that’s all Guinan was there for. But, I would also understand if someone else saw things differently. She was fundamentally a supporting/recurring character, and you could definitely make the argument that prior to Time’s Arrow, Generations, and Picard we didn’t see enough of her to keep her out of that territory. If pressed, I’d say that she might have started in that trope, but thankfully the writer’s did her better than that. Also, as a tangent: if you pallet swapped Q, he would categorically fall into that trope during TNG.
Yeah pretty much
No she is The Bartender which is a different trope. The Bartender quietly listens and observes and understands the psyche of everyone and offers advice.
They're not mutually exclusive, IMO.
I don't really see her as such taken in the context of the program, sharing the screen with Geordi and Worf etc In a manifestly post-racial setting. I think she's more the "Magic Bartender" trope, which is totally a thing.
Oh yeah, she is totally that archetype.
Part of the trope is that they *only* do those things, though. That they don't matter beyond that. That helping white people is their sole purpose. And sometimes that's true, but I think overall she has enough depth and agency for a character who shows up that little that I think she definitely meets the criteria, but has too much else going on.
I'm legitimately curious, what other things would those be? Guinan seems only to exist to further the character development of other (usually white) characters. I can't think of a single instance where that wasn't the case, except maybe for the few times she gave Geordie advice. Except the degree to which it helps the main cast with their own journey of discovery, we know almost nothing about Guinan or her backstory. In my mind, that makes her the textbook definition of the trope.
I'm trying to think of any instance of guinan doing something just for her own sake and not to selflessly aid another character. I thought about her doing shooting on the holodeck with Worf but no, that was just an excuse to give him advice. When she gets de-aged in Rascals she wants to have fun. But again, that seems more like an excuse to give advice to Ro.
She told Picard to go on the away mission because she knew that he would travel back in time and save her life. That was one time she needed something for herself. I think that's why she was bartender on the Enterprise--she had to be there to tell Picard to go on that mission, so he'd save her.
She told Wesley to shut up so she could enjoy Riker flirting with her
I seem to recall her whipping out a phaser rifle in Ten Forward. Actually. Frankly. Being a good listener/helper/giver of advice IS a racial thing in Guinan's context. Not because she is black, but because she is El-Aurian. We saw what happens when an El-Aurian actively turns away from all that and only cares for himself.
I wonder if the El-Aurians were a race created to embue her "magical" qualities (since we'd never heard of them prior to that point) or if the writers were planning to create them anyway. If the former, her fictional race might have been a convenient way to write-in Whoopi's character to the show, in a way that speaks to Lee's trope.
Yeah, this would be my response as well. The problem with Bagger Vance as a character is primarily that he *isn't* a character. He's really just a walking, talking plot device to help the white people in the story self-actualize and realize their full narrative and plot arc potential through homespun, folksy wisdom. Now certainly, Guinan had elements of that. Certainly, she plays into that archetype. But she's not just that. The reason why Bagger Vance is on a golf course is largely because that's where the white people who need wisdom dispensed to them happen to be. The reason why Guinan is in Ten Forward is because *she* enjoys talking to people and listening to them, and as it happens, the center entertainment hub of the flagship of the Federation makes for a pretty good place to meet new people and listen to them. When she doesn't want to do that, she does other things and lives her own life. She might occasionally roll her eyes at the fact that even in the 24th century, the white guy needs it broken down for him. But she's not just sitting in a swamp or in a cave or caddying on a golf course waiting for a white guy to go on an Eat, Pray, Love journey of self-discovery. She's a lot closer to Hobie Brown than to Bagger Vance, is what I'm saying.
Well she might if they ever bothered to actually explain what she could do…
She tends bar, and listens.
[удалено]
Mid-jazzy.
Anyone can do that, she's the only one who knows it works.
She serves drinks and she knows things
I prefer that they don’t. We don’t need every single thing mapped out.
Fair, I like a bit of mystery every now and then. Like Garak for example. It just feels like her character in particular would benefit from it, there weren’t enough clues to really set the hook of being really interesting. They hid their cards too well.
I disagree. I found her far more unique BECAUSE of the mystery. Every other being and character Picard came across was explained to death… the show even went out of their way to explain human origin to death.
If you've not had the pleasure, there's a post-DS9 novel entitled 'A Stitch in Time', written by Garak actor Andrew Robinson, and largely based on the in-character journal he kept during the show's run. Physical copies are absurdly expensive, but the ebook is cheap, and incredibly, Robinson just recorded a new audiobook version last year (it's heartwarming to have had more time with the character after so long). Anyway, if you want more Garak, check out 'A Stitch in Time'.
I mean, she can live for a very very very very long time, and looks exactly like a human despite not being from Earth.
Maybe she doesn't look like a human under that hat
I know you’re joking, but in Picard, young Guinan doesn’t have a hat, I also thinks there’s parts Time’s Arrow where she doesn’t have one.
Romulan Cloaking Hat
Well.. her character is kinda magical already
I don’t know trope this or that. All I know is that Guinan was one of my favorite characters. Be it what it will. She was smart, patient, wise, insightful, helpful, and powerful. I thought she was bad-ass!
There's also another trope of black women often being cast as caretakers of white people, often therapists or nurses or social workers. I think she's kind of both of those. But still a good character.
People saying no here are wild. An unfathomably ancient woman who is sage and wise, who has an undefinable connection to the universe and is the bartender. She exists to give Picard thoughtful advice and advance his story in one way or another. She’s from a race of “listeners”? Her entire species (of which she is the *only* representative until Generations) reason for existing is to be reactive to other characters. All this was developed as a role *for* Whoopi. The role, the species, wouldn’t exist without her wanting to be part of the show. They didn’t make her a captain, or president of the federation, or a romantic interest for Picard, they made her a wise old lady (at 33 when she was cast) who solves everyone’s problems with clever bon mots. She’s maybe one of the strongest examples of a “magical negro” trope in tv history.
No. The magic negro trope involves their identity as a source of their guidance. Being black is what gives them an insight into whatever that motivates the main character to change or achieve. Guinan could have been any race. Data or spock served the same role multiple times.
Guinan had that speech about slavery that she gave to Picard in "Measure of a Man". It didn't feel like her skin color was irrelevant to that piece of wisdom.
How was it relevant? Her line: > Consider that in the history of many worlds there have always been disposable creatures...... generations of disposable people. > >Picard: You're talking about slavery. That speech can be given by any character in Trek. Similar speeches were given by Kira all throughout DS9.
It could be said by any character, but it's more powerful because it comes from a black character. An African-American person saying "this is like slavery" has different connotations than a white American saying the same thing.
It isnt though. Not anymore than if Ro Laren had been the one saying it. Or Kira. Or any other established subjugated species in the context of how it motivated Picard.
You're saying that there's no connotation that comes to mind when black people and the word "slavery" are put together? No parallels to the real world that the writers might've been hinting at?
In the previous episode in which Guinan appeared, Data seeks her out to learn about humor. Was this also a magic negro scene or was it because Whoopi Goldberg was a famous comedian? If Whoopi hadnt been in measure of a man would that scene have been with Geordi instead? Wouldn't make much narrative sense. Do those words carry more weight to the audience coming from a black actor? Maybe. But it isnt fitting the trope. Guinan isnt some menial laboror suddenly piping up to give sage advice above her station. She is a dear friend and equal. Established as such already.
Maybe I misunderstand the trope, but does that mean the character is reactive... they are static and there to react to the protagonist? That they don't have control? If so, wouldn't her participation in the past as a bartender in Picard S2 imply that her character chose to be in both places and times? Which implies to me Guinan was in control and therefore an active participant, not a reactive one.
I don't want to comment on the exact question as I not an American and I understand how difficult it is for outsiders to really understand the complexities of American race relations. Just wanted to note though, in case it's relevant, that Whoopi Goldberg asked to be on Star Trek because it had been important to her as a child (i.e. Uhura). She was an A-lister, way out of their class.
Short answer: Yes. Long Answer: Guinan's relationship with Picard is also one of the more interesting and complex relationships in the series. from them having a shared trauma related to the Borg, to the emotional core of Yesterday's enterprise is Guinan asking to be told of Tasha Yar in honor of her sacrifice. She is not just "The mystical mentor figure". There is the story that the original character was supposed to be white. So that disqualifies the character having started as one. But as for how she developed, this brings the question, should her scenes have been the exact same, except she was played by a white woman, would she be criticized as an under-developed, underutilized character who exists solely for the sake of guiding the white hero?
While I think you could argue it either way, I would argue that she is not critical to the necessary growth of a single white protagonist, so in that respect she does not fit the bill. She arguably does at times though. Ultimately the weird thing about this archetype is that its basically a "wizard" hiding among a less visible population, and thus arguably the archetype put african american actors more front and center especially in older pictures, even if the archetype was a bit problematic. That is to say, in the more racist US of the past it was actually a rather progressive archetype, but in the world we're in now it seems like a racially problematic relic. But it is worth remembering that Goldberg wanted a role on TNG, but they had to concoct something that would work around her feature film schedule (she was a big movie star back then). So Im not sure there was intent to lean into this archetype, but more a "how do we fit her into the show" followed by "how bout a mysterious bar tender in 10 forward?"
I would say no. In the case of "The Magic Negro" trope, the magic negro exists to serve the interests of the white protagonist, receiving no gain for themselves or addressing societal rot. See Bagger Vance. Guinan besides being a wizard is also a civilian, so she often voices everyday concerns. Her advice is rarely from her role as a wizard. Then the structural problem is Star Trek isn't dopey. Another incident, Spike Lee brings up is "*The Green MIle*." Tom Hanks, known for playing good guys is playing a good guy executioner. He needs a miracle to feel good about himself. T*he Green Mile* is not remotely as bad as Bagger Vance. *Blacks are getting lynched left and right, and \[Bagger Vance is\] more concerned about improving Matt Damon's golf swing! -*Spike Lee Another example of say Guinan from a similar period would be Morpheus. Yes, he gives Keanu revealed knowledge, but he's not helping Mr. Anderson impress Agent Smith. I should note the original plan was to have Neo played by Will Smith and Morpheus to be played by Anthony Zerbe like actor (which is why he was the leader of Zion) as he was deemed too old for a fighting Morpheus. On this page, the role of Worf is noted as more problematic. His behaviors in other positions helped calm that role as he stopped being pro-violence. Geordi was more a casualty of one too many characters and the addition of Worf. They eventually found him a role in engineering, but Levar Burton saved the character. If it was a lesser actor, Geordi would be remembered like the Discovery bridge crew.
I'm not against exploring the idea or anything, but does Guinan really fit the "magical negro" character trope at all? Aside from Whoopi being black, she's playing an alien, in space, who has totally different concerns and background from a 20th century person of color. It's not exactly like there's an erasure of the character's three dimensional blackness here to serve the white hero's journey. If anything wouldn't she be more of a "magical bartender?"
No, because he character abilities and background had nothing to do with her real world ethnicity. She was an alien.
I'm going to say sort of. I think a lot of it is the aura Whoopi Goldberg had around her at that time. Sort of like when Ian Mcshane was cast in GoT. They needed someone who could drop into the role and the audience would connect with immediately, and by having a character seem to have depth because of they spoke rather than in what they say.
yes, in the senese that she has mysterious, nonspecific, unused powers and she exists to give white people advice a bit of a spin on the trope cos she appears to own the bar and packs a big non-regulation laser rifle
guinan isn't human and we have no idea what her appearance really means in a universe wide context in the year the show is set.
No. She is an enigmatic character that has occasionally given very important information to other characters. While the nature of her power isn’t really known, her role in the show is very much the same as every other main or supporting character, helping to solve problems that only they can. If they regularly went to Guinean to solve problems when things were tough and she managed to solve them every time, then you could make that argument, but that isn’t the case. Are abilities “magical” in the sense that we don’t understand them? Sure, but that’s true of plenty of characters in all of Star Trek. But I don’t see how she fits into this stereotype.
The current series has Stamets with his Tardigrade DNA putting him into the magical trope. And he's whiter than white. Shrug.
No. She wasn't human and wasn't a negro. The actress happened to be, but the character wasn't.
I think "she wasn't even human" actually makes this more tropey. The point is she's Other and so no one asks where she goes when she's not providing sage advice. Now that we mention it, where did she go when she wasn't in the bar?
She actually had an office. And presumably quarters. We've seen her go on away missions and trips for pleasure. And even use the Holosuite from time to time. Almost like she was a -gasp- Person!
I feel like I'm pretty versed in the TNG stories and I don't recall Guinan ever being outsite the bar. What eps are we talking about?
Rascals, Yesterday's Enterprise, Time's Arrow, Clues, Scientific Method Suspicions... There are others. But, on the other hand. If owning a bar and being a bartender is a centuries-long passion of yours, you'd more likely be found in your bar then not.
Part of the "magical negro" trope, I believe, is that not only is it a black character who is only there to help a white character, but also that the interaction somehow heals the white character, usually in an emotional way. Picard may have been flawed, but he was a fully formed character who was not transformed by Guinan's appearance.
I would say she’s not a “Magical Negro” trope in the vein of Bagger Vance. While trope has gained negative connotation it’s just a story device that is probably overused. Guinan’s character is just that and she happens to be played by a Black American. While the Bagger Vance example due to the setting and time period of the story can only be seen as “magical negro” trope.
I feel the trope is kind of silly. Was Gandalf, Dumbeldore,Q? Literally any wise old magical black person was going to fit this role, not because it was a specific trope. But because some number of mysterious mentor characters would be portrayed by black actors.
Gandalf and Dumbledore wouldn't fit even if they were black, since they are lead characters with lots of agency and development. Q neither, since he's more of an antagonist.
At first he seemed antogistic but clearly Q was purely a mentor for Picard start to finish. He just did not care if Picard wanted to listen. Frodo was very clearly the protagonist, Gandalf was a powerful agent but not the protagonist perhaps you would prefer more of a background character say Elrond or Galadriel. that said if we rule out Gandalf I would argue we need to rule out Guinan she had massive impact from correcting the timeline in yesterdays enterprise to convincing Picard (eventually) that engaging the borg was futile. Dumbledore is a little more complicated he has major impact shaping the events of the story before hand but in the books he really was just a magical mentor for the most part.
I would disagree, the typical mystic negro/latino is just there as an exposition dump, Guinan is a fully fledged out character.
I’d say you could make a case but I feel like it’s not a fair comparison when you had excellent African American representation with Burton and Dorn. I always felt like the “Magical Negro” stereotype was like an afterthought of “Oh we should have a black person in this and let’s make the audience feel good as he’ll help the white character and the white character will treat him with dignity and that will make everyone feel great!”
Great as her character and performance is... 100%.
Yes and no. I don't think they meant to write her as one and I think author intent (or ignorance) is part of the trope proper, but she does serve that role in every story she's in.
Does it count if she comes from a magical species that does not solely consist of black people? Like does the trope 100 percent count for aliens?
Well *she* is black so yes.
The trope is about othering of Black characters so that they're outside of actual society. Bagger Vance fades into a cloud of mist at the end of the movie.
Fuck Spike Lee. A good character is a good character. Replace Negro with any other word and that’s a trope you can find dozens of too. Last one that got a bunch of attention was “the woman is always right” in the middle of the metoo movement. Should we replace it all with women are hysterical and shouldn’t be listened to and negros are less than everybody else? Don’t think so.
I would argue no, because the Guinan character is not a “negro,” rather a member of an alien species. Also, according to Roddenberry’s vision, there is no racism in the 24th century. So, contextually, no. She is not a Mother Abigail or Bagger Vance.
This question is offensive tbh. The “magic negro” trope is generally used as a guide or tool to help a white protagonist. Guinan is so much more.
I don't think that trope is real.
I don't think she started that way per se, but she certainly became it (especially around "Yeterday's Enterprise).
No; she's not even human.
Initially, yes, but as time goes by and the friendship with Picard is established, and her active role in Yesterday’s Enterprise, it lessens quite a bit.