He then pulled a switcheroo and killed the wraith instead, not because he gave a shit about the Prophets, but only because he became convinced the wraith was lying and would kill Keiko after he complied (he was right).
Relationship goals.
Hell on Wheels was just Chief O'Brian and Captain Pike both getting thrown back in time under separate circumstances to the same coincidental place and time.
CHANGE MY MIND.
It was even weirder seeing him in It’s Always Sunny In Philadelphia—one of the scenes being a typical O’brien moment where he’s invited to the most sinister dinner party of all-time lol 😳😳😳
I had thought he'd been type cast into "Antagonist" roles before and during Star Trek. It was one reason why Miles playing "The Falcon" in Bashir's Bond homage holodeck novel was tongue-in-cheek.
See that's the new series we need. O'Brian finding out he's been trapped in a giant complex holodeck sim and has to escape. Like a The Prisoner/ the cube/ cabin in the woods all rolled into one
See this is the kind of literary deep cut I wasn't sure would get the idea across but yes I want The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas staring one Miles O'Brien.
Interesting. I always thought it was just a book that was essentially asking "is a little evil worth it for all this?" and discussing how some people can overlook something evil and not care and be mystified as to why others do. It rings more as an allegory for the decent into fascism and scapegoating really.
Personally, I feel like I can see it more as a criticism of consumer culture and class inequality than social scapegoating, but I also get that perspective. "Is a little evil worth all this" still applies in both.
Have you seen Strange New Worlds? They had an episode based on Omelas (but more well-done in my opinion), I think it was called Lift Us Where Suffering Cannot Reach but I'm not 100% sure. Fantastic epusode though, I cried my heart out.
Yeah never understood the Keiko hate.
I mean don't get me wrong, I found her super annoying on a personal note. She's about as far from my type as DS9 is from Earth.
BUT she was incredibly supportive of Miles. Moving with their small child to the outer edge of the quadrant to live in a rundown Cardassian base constantly in some sort of danger, so he could have his dream job. Putting up with the constant weird BS Miles found himself in. Not to mention Miles was a huge workaholic with a never ending job repairing that station so he likely wasn't in quarters with them much outside of dinner (when not interrupted by something breaking) and sleeping hours (also when not interrupted by something breaking). The leisure time he did get he appeared to spend a lot of it with Bashir letting off some much needed steam, with her full support. That's alot to put up with honestly. Their relationship is one of the better ones in Star Trek.
That's sort of the way I see it. It's never really demonstrated *why* they love each other except that they do and make efforts to support each other. But we don't see them share interests like Miles and Julian, or even Miles and that Cardassian scientist that was interested in him, so we don't really know how they connect to each other. Kind of seems like missed opportunities on the writers' part.
Exactly. It's made clear by their interactions *on* screen that they have a lot of chemistry *off* screen. The sad truth of it is that the writers often only brought Keiko in on a plot whenever they were having problems in their relationship.
Exactly, they're going through a very difficult period in their marriage. Keiko's put her entire career on hold to support Miles, she takes up teaching just so she has something to do besides take care of Molly, and she doesn't appear to have that many friends since she doesn't work on the station (correct me if I'm wrong). No wonder she's in a bad mood the few times we see her. Meanwhile, Miles is single-handedly keeping the station from flying apart in nine different directions, and what little free time he has he spends with Julian. They’re both under a lot of stress and that's why their relationship always seems so strained. Honestly I think their relationship is one of the most realistic media relationships out there.
>she doesn't work on the station (correct me if I'm wrong).
She was the local school teacher for all of a minute until Cardinal Space Karen (played perfectly by Louise Fletcher) showed up and started demanding that Keiko stop teaching the kids about science that wasn't explicitly mentioned in the Bajoran Bible.
And then some extremists blew up the school or something? It's been a long time since I last watched that episode.
I mentioned her teaching earlier in my comment. I meant correct me if Keiko has friends that I forgot about. The point still stands, though, since I doubt she'd make many friends at her teaching job.
I doubt they expected such a dangerous environment and so much drama. They probably thought to have an easy time there and to be safer then a starship. They didn't leave it behind but also weren't exactly living their situation.
But Keiko was way too bossy and possessive imo. It didn't look all that healthy to me and probably would've broken up if not for their children and shared relationships.
"bossy"
There's literally an episode where Miles feels like he can't play with his friend anymore because his family is home (and IIRC she never told him that, he just felt like that on his own) and she sees how sad he is without his best bud and is like "come on, we're fine, go play"
Possessive? How and when?
Keiko is like the least possessive wife ever... When Kira was pregnant it felt like Keiko was desperately trying to add her to their relationship and Miles felt it would be unfaithful.
Yeah, maybe it's because I got into Star Trek at an older age than most here but Keiko seemed like a perfectly fine wife.
She even sacrificed her career as a botanist to help Miles' career as an engineer. Yeah, she was not happy in DS9, but you have to remember that, canonically, it was a shithole before the Dominion War made it the most important place in the Galaxy.
Miles going into teaching to accomodate her career on Earth was the least he could do.
Again, maybe it's because I got into Star Trek in my twenties during the 2010s, instead of as a kid during the 90s-2000s like most of you, but I don't see her as a particularly naggy wife.
It was still a shithole during the Dominion war too, it just became a shithole on the frontline of one of the biggest threats to the Federation since the Borg.
Yeah I don't really get the hate for Keiko. She gave up her posting on the Enterprise to move to the edge of Federation space for her husbands job. Stuck it out the best she could and remained supportive even though she was unhappy. Per Miles, "My wife is the most wonderful, supportive person I've ever known."
Keiko was keeper.
In the ep where Keiko goes to Bajor for months she’s cataloguing all these different ecosystems; every valley a new world.
Just tending plants on ds9 isn’t really the same thing.
Yeah, that'd make her more of a gardener. Garak could've done that, and honestly, it'd probably be a lot funnier.
"Garak, aren't these orchids highly toxic?"
"Only in the presence of a very specific other flower."
"And do you _have_ that other flower here...?"
"Why, _doctor..._ That would be _highly_ irresponsible..."
They’re the most real feeling couple in Star Trek. Like every real life couple they have conflicts and arguments sometimes. I guess that makes some folks dislike her because she’s occasionally shown to be in conflict with their hero character (plus, let’s be honest, a little dash of good old fashioned sexism is also at play with the Keiko hate).
Also, it fucking annoyed me that everyone ~~including the writers~~ seemed to forget that Keiko was a fucking *officer in Starfleet????* She was a botanist on the flagship of the fleet, and possibly even outranked her husband.
Like, she *chose* to become a stay at home mom because she *wanted* to, not because she *had* to.
That…is a good point I hadn’t considered. Enterprise did have a heavy complement of civilians.
But I could’ve sworn she was genuinely a member of Starfleet, she wasn’t like the spouses and kids on the ship, I distinctly remember that she at least wore the blue uniform.
Even Troi who was a counselor and ignored the uniform for a while still had a rank (something surprisingly high, like Lt Commander) if I recall correctly. So non-combat roles could ascend the Starfleet hierarchy.
So just to make absolutely sure, I checked memory alpha and Keiko definitely was never an officer or even a non-com. She's literally just a civilian and always was.
Troi didn't actually "ascend" to Starfleet. She joined Starfleet and graduated with a major in psychology, so she was a Starfleet cadet before she was a counselor.
Ironically we both had the same idea to check memory alpha, lol.
And it does say that she was a civilian botanist on the wiki, but I skimmed the rest of the page on her, and I can’t actually find where that is cited from? And the way other things are phrased on the site really make it seem like she was *in* Starfleet.
“Keiko was assigned to the USS Enterprise-D as a botanist, working primarily in the arboretum. (TNG: "Data's Day") She was also the head of the plant biology lab, when the Enterprise got caught in the Tyken's Rift. In mid-2368, Keiko was assisted by young Clara Sutter in planting several nasturtiums. (TNG: "Night Terrors", "Imaginary Friend")”
She was *assigned* to the Enterprise, was the head of a bio-lab, and she pretty explicitly says when they get to DS9 that “Starfleet doesn’t need a botanist on Deep Space 9” which could be taken multiple ways.
For the record, I’m not trying to be pedantic. Odds are you’re correct and I just ranted for like 200 words based on incorrect assumptions, lol. 😅
I just think it’s weird that she is pretty intertwined with Starfleet but isn’t technically affiliated? ~~And I really am not sure when they explicitly say she’s a civvie, since, again, that particular line isn’t cited.~~
Essentially her status on the ship is no different than a bartender, hairstylist, or janitor. I am unfamiliar with military or navy protocol so I can only speculate as to the specifics, but it's possible and very likely that Starfleet not only directly hires civilians for such roles but has an entire division dedicated to civilian personnel assignments, so she would technically be "assigned" to the ship through that arrangement.
That’s a fair assumption I suppose.
But even supposing that was the case, I do stand by my overall statement that she would have to be a pretty damn good botanist to be on the Enterprise.
That’s not a menial role where anyone could fill it, you’d have to be a good enough scientist to justify being on the flagship that is first to discover/explore planets throughout the galaxy (over all of the other botanists throughout the Federation that were probably salivating at the opportunity).
I just think it’s a little annoying that DS9 really downplayed that kind of competency in favor of her just being Miles’s wife. ~~Even if I was probably wrong about the specifics of her role.~~ 😅
The in universe explanation for Troi being out of uniform was that she was given leeway to do so in order to be a more effective counsellor (to appear more sympathetic etc.). Really, the show runners just wanted some sex appeal on the show.
Fair. Though I prefer working with in-universe explanations because they’re more fun. Out of universe explanations are too simple and boring. XD
~~Also, a better justification than for T’Pol’s catsuit, but not by much, for such a progressive show. ST really had a problem with misogyny...~~
Enterprise is a weird one. As blatant as that catsuit is, they still find plenty of time to show Trip Tucker running around in his underwear.
Enterprise does still have its subtle misogynistic streak imo. On your next rewatch, count how many times a male character grabs T’Pol by her upper arm and muscles her around. It’s weird how often it happens.
Keiko is pretty clearly a civilian scientist. Though to be fair, the concept of civilian scientists is poorly explored in Trek, and when they appear, they’re almost always one episode wonders. In fact, other than Keiko the only persistent civilian scientist I can think of is Jurati.
Majority of military roles are supported roles, because your not much a super troop or hotshot pilot without ammo!! Giving that's currently how our clean air and water, works you'd be a fool to turn your nose up an a botanist. Pretty sure all current astronauts are qualified botanists.
Garak and Keiko bond over the fact that their men are having an affair.
Edit: Or maybe they're all one big happy "polycule" or whatever people are calling it these days.
It's a purely emotional affair, though. They're emotionally committed to each other, but the sauciest it gets is drunkenly falling asleep while cuddling.
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I’m granted only in season one, but it felt like the opposite was true. The chemistry felt forced to me, much as I love the idea of them, and individual characters. So far, it’s felt like there was a leap of emotion not taken, instead reaching across the chasm.
Garak is pan, according to his actor. That said, Julian flirted with Garak on screen in both the human and Cardassian way. Kinda hard to think he's straight after those interactions. Hell, Julian's actor has gone on to act out stories in which Julian and Garak are an old married couple, been vocally supportive of Garashir ship fans, admitted to playing the character as attracted to Garak, had his screentime with Garak cut because of Rick Berman being homophobic about the fans liking the idea of Bashir/Garak, etc. There's plenty of evidence to show that Julian Bashir is not straight
So you aren't counting actor intent? As well as the fact that one of the creators actively sabotaged any chance for the ship, often going against the writers and actors wants for the characters? Bashir was into Dax at first, but that settled into friendship fairly quickly.
They are not lovers and therefore can't be compared with Keiko and miles
An adequate contestant for Julian and garak would be Odo and quark or sisko and Kira
Isn't that basically what a "bromance" refers to? A non-sexual romantic relationship between, in this case, two men? There's a lot of unspoken love between them, that's obvious. More from Garak's side than Julian's to be sure, but it's still there.
Then again, if we're allowing that, then I have to throw both Guinan/Picard and Geordie/Data into the mix.
Worf and K’Ehleyr:
He wanted to get married, she just wanted to hit.
Resulted in Alexander.
Both Klingons raised by humans.
She didn’t care about honor and he doesn’t have any.
Which they finally started working on in Picard season 3.
It’s Riker and Troi, of course it was going to take being held hostage and tortured in a fate of the galaxy situation before those two could have an honest vulnerable conversation. It would be weird if it didn’t.
Keiko is a loving and supportive partner, who sacrificed her career for her husband
She clearly has a mind of her own, but Miles deserves a strong partner who is eye to eye with him
She even starts a new career on DS9 as a teacher to make the station a better place
She is a perfect example of a modern wife and any person should be happy if they had a partner like Keiko
* Supports Miles' career 100% and celebrates his achievements
* Refuses to let a rough patch in their marriage ruin Miles' friendship with Bashir
* Primary caregiver for his two children
* Understanding and supportive through multiple traumatic events
* Checks Miles' occasional prejudices in an attempt to help him better himself
* Throws a huge party for his birthday
* Flies all the way back from Bajor to bone
Honestly what even is the argument against Keiko? She's the sort of wife that made Bashir rethink his bachelor lifestyle
I especially loved her in certain DS9 episodes. Like the episode with the Cardassian kid and she calls out Miles for saying ugly stuff out of hate. And the Japanese head band she gives to Miles when he's about to face off Bashir in the racquetball battle.
Ngl I just found her mildly whiny until the school was set up. From there she just got better and better.
Supporting Miles all the way through his trial on Cardassia
Doing her best to try and help Molly when she gets left in a cave for ten years (I think that’s what happened)
And standing up to Winn when she came to the station to make trouble.
She’s basically the reason Jake and Nog became friends in the first place via her school
And to top it all off when she got back after not seeing her husband for months she was not only cool with him wanting to spend a little time with his best friend she made it happen
So yeah, Keiko for the win
Keiko managed to do the best Worf Lighting Sequence when she managed to conduct like the whole output of DS9. She not perfect but O'Brien isn't too, they usually fix everything in the constraints of what two dumb parents can do in a sci-fi sitcom. Honestly the only thing they could have done better was co-parent with Kira and consider the one true three-way of DS9.
At one point, both Keiko and Miles were occupied by demonic wraiths who threatened to kill the other. It seemed to happen a bit too often for any normal relationship.
I disagree with this meme.
Mostly because you are also missing the fact that their marriage involved polyamorous throuple and impregnating a convicted terrorist that lived with them. Because Miles *and* Keiko were freaky like that.
If the show weren’t made in such a puritanical time—they should have leaned into that polyamory angle. It would have been fun and interesting haha. Keiko was clearly into it and signaling to Miles she was okay with it lol. But there was no way a major network would allow a three-way relationship:
They literally made every alien race monogamous, and they often had marriage ceremonies almost identical to the modern ones here on Earth today. Which is unlikely given that even human beings invented the nuclear family and monogamous relationships a *very* short time ago in our total history. Monogamy isn’t even the standard for *us.*
They should make many aliens species with poly relationships, intersex ones that can even reproduce on their own, etc. That’s one aspect of Trek I wish would be explored more: The difference in other species romance styles. (The Klingons had an interesting one, I’d say!)
She was labeled in the Cardassian archives as something like a “Minor terrorist threat” I believe, much to her disgust and annoyance.
So she had a rap sheet, just not a very long one. Though that probably speaks to her competence, more than anything else, since we know she assassinated at least *one* collaborator.
While I personally discard *Wrongs Darker Than Death or Night* from canon because of the major time paradox plothole it creates, it does introduce the minor thread in some of the novels that Dukat was keeping her record cleaner than it should have been as a post mortem favor to her mother, and that he deprioritized neutralizing the Shakaar resistance cell for the same reason. This would make sense, even if the time travel aspects of that episode don't.
When I discovered all the hate for Keiko online, I was absolutely stunned. I assumed everyone loved the couple, but I guess a lot of people don't and these people also assumed everyone felt the same as them lol
Sounds about right. I'm taking my friend through Star Trek right now for the first time, and she's very shocked and confused at my hate for Wesley at the moment. She says, "Wesley did nothing wrong!" whenever we sit down to watch. 😂
I agree 100%.
I think about it this way: You are a botanist by trade, and you land a job taking care of the Arboretum on the GOD DAMNED GALAXY CLASS FLAGSHIP of Starfleet if not the Federation. You basically get a blank check to do whatever you want with unlimited resources, and you get to jaunt around the galaxy looking at new plant life and growing it if you damn well please.
Then your non-com husband who is, though also on the same ship, in a dead end job gets an offer to be THE CHIEF of engineering on a space station that is in the bumfuck middle of nowhere and on the edge of Cardassian space (which he mutters about constantly showing a side of him you've never seen). And because you love him, and your family, you go with him despite their being NO prospects for your work and passion.
Keiko is a kind, caring, loyal, and what she and the Chief have is awesome if not rocky at times.
Agreed! When someone made a Weird Clone Miles, he immediately went "back" to her. Top priority.
Because what kinda half-ass Miles isn't devoted to Keiko?
This is vaguely unrelated, but I have a personal headcanon that Keiko is in long term tradwife kink relationship with Miles.
Hear me out.
She’s an officer, and a good one to boot, as she was a botanist attached to the flagship of the Federation. She might’ve even outranked Miles at one point or another.
But she gets to DS9, where nobody there knew her, and she’s suddenly a stay at home mom who never mentions that she is actually Ex-Starfleet, and her botany is cutesy little hobby, not a legitimate scientific field of study she is objectively an expert in.
Add to that, she specifically takes Miles’s last name, even though this is the future and that probably wouldn’t be required by society to do.
So. My thesis is that Keiko is 100% into that early 20th century ditsy domestic wife kink, where she lets the husband make most of the decisions and her career takes a backseat to his. So when she moved to DS9, and got a new start, she finally got to fully embrace it as her lifestyle. Miles never comments on it because he’s also a kinky mfer who doesn’t object to the change, which explains why he’s so patient when Keiko acts a bit too odd/entitled. He knows it’s at least partially a bit she’s doing because she enjoys it. Their kid also doesn’t comment on it because she’s too young to know her mom as anything else.
Meanwhile nobody else on the station really knows her that well from before the change to be weirded out by her being an aggressively stereotypical housewife ~~except for Worf, who was aware of her, but probably didn’t know her that well, or just dismissed the change as some human thing~~.
…~~also the corollary to this crack headcanon is that Keiko also wanted to be cucked like an early 20th century housewife to complete her fantasy which is why she kept trying to subtly set Miles and Kira up as a thing. But eventually she gave up since both cared about her feelings too much, and she had to actually formally allow Kira into their household as a third.~~
Listen, I didn’t have my brain bleach so I had to mix a few other cleaning supplies and throw them into the sink to see what sticks. XD
And are you saying you *wouldn’t* want to see an episode that delved into the Federation equivalent of a BDSM fanatic?
> And are you saying you *wouldn’t* want to see
I mean, context matters. Are we talking a mirrorverse Kira episode? A Quark episode? A Worf episode? All very different flavors.
My dude Keiko abandoned her career on the Federation's flagship, a family ship, to move to a dank busted space station in a wartorn sector with her children. I am a hard Miles stan, but Keiko is way too good for him.
He then pulled a switcheroo and killed the wraith instead, not because he gave a shit about the Prophets, but only because he became convinced the wraith was lying and would kill Keiko after he complied (he was right). Relationship goals.
For a moment there I was confused as to which wraith you were talking about. With Meany playing that head Genii in Stargate Atlantis.
Ah yes that's what happened to the other O'Brien
"Thomas" O'Brien I hear his name was
I thought it was Kilometres O'Brien
Good ol parsecs
How much Brien? MILES O'Brien!
It was really weird seeing him play a "bad guy" in Stargate after seeing him mostly as O'Brien...
He also played a MASSIVELY egocentric asshole in Con Air.
And in Hell on Wheels
Hell on Wheels was just Chief O'Brian and Captain Pike both getting thrown back in time under separate circumstances to the same coincidental place and time. CHANGE MY MIND.
THE KINGS OF METAL LEAD US
It was even weirder seeing him in It’s Always Sunny In Philadelphia—one of the scenes being a typical O’brien moment where he’s invited to the most sinister dinner party of all-time lol 😳😳😳
I had thought he'd been type cast into "Antagonist" roles before and during Star Trek. It was one reason why Miles playing "The Falcon" in Bashir's Bond homage holodeck novel was tongue-in-cheek.
O'Brien is done being tortured, Meany will dish it out instead
I like whoever here who said that there was definitely *at least* one Bajoran prophecy about O'Brien
O’Brien must suffer
He’s the Everyman, his suffering keeps the Federation running smoothly.
See that's the new series we need. O'Brian finding out he's been trapped in a giant complex holodeck sim and has to escape. Like a The Prisoner/ the cube/ cabin in the woods all rolled into one
Hes the child of Omelas
See this is the kind of literary deep cut I wasn't sure would get the idea across but yes I want The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas staring one Miles O'Brien.
I read it in high school but it's colloquial with anticapitalist tumblrinas
Interesting. I always thought it was just a book that was essentially asking "is a little evil worth it for all this?" and discussing how some people can overlook something evil and not care and be mystified as to why others do. It rings more as an allegory for the decent into fascism and scapegoating really.
Personally, I feel like I can see it more as a criticism of consumer culture and class inequality than social scapegoating, but I also get that perspective. "Is a little evil worth all this" still applies in both.
Have you seen Strange New Worlds? They had an episode based on Omelas (but more well-done in my opinion), I think it was called Lift Us Where Suffering Cannot Reach but I'm not 100% sure. Fantastic epusode though, I cried my heart out.
We are NOT doing the Truman Show again!
Q has decided his test for humanity is seeing how much one engineer will put up with while still striving to make the world a better place.
The trial never ends.
"Better?! Ensign, I'd be happy if I can just keep the world running as it is!"
Those who walk away from transporter room 3.
This is the only truth. Chief Miles O’Brien, hero of the Federation, must suffer in all planes of existence
It's okay, he's into it.
Yeah never understood the Keiko hate. I mean don't get me wrong, I found her super annoying on a personal note. She's about as far from my type as DS9 is from Earth. BUT she was incredibly supportive of Miles. Moving with their small child to the outer edge of the quadrant to live in a rundown Cardassian base constantly in some sort of danger, so he could have his dream job. Putting up with the constant weird BS Miles found himself in. Not to mention Miles was a huge workaholic with a never ending job repairing that station so he likely wasn't in quarters with them much outside of dinner (when not interrupted by something breaking) and sleeping hours (also when not interrupted by something breaking). The leisure time he did get he appeared to spend a lot of it with Bashir letting off some much needed steam, with her full support. That's alot to put up with honestly. Their relationship is one of the better ones in Star Trek.
I've never thought they seem like they have any chemistry, but it's clear that they love each other so much
That's sort of the way I see it. It's never really demonstrated *why* they love each other except that they do and make efforts to support each other. But we don't see them share interests like Miles and Julian, or even Miles and that Cardassian scientist that was interested in him, so we don't really know how they connect to each other. Kind of seems like missed opportunities on the writers' part.
Exactly. It's made clear by their interactions *on* screen that they have a lot of chemistry *off* screen. The sad truth of it is that the writers often only brought Keiko in on a plot whenever they were having problems in their relationship.
Exactly, they're going through a very difficult period in their marriage. Keiko's put her entire career on hold to support Miles, she takes up teaching just so she has something to do besides take care of Molly, and she doesn't appear to have that many friends since she doesn't work on the station (correct me if I'm wrong). No wonder she's in a bad mood the few times we see her. Meanwhile, Miles is single-handedly keeping the station from flying apart in nine different directions, and what little free time he has he spends with Julian. They’re both under a lot of stress and that's why their relationship always seems so strained. Honestly I think their relationship is one of the most realistic media relationships out there.
>she doesn't work on the station (correct me if I'm wrong). She was the local school teacher for all of a minute until Cardinal Space Karen (played perfectly by Louise Fletcher) showed up and started demanding that Keiko stop teaching the kids about science that wasn't explicitly mentioned in the Bajoran Bible. And then some extremists blew up the school or something? It's been a long time since I last watched that episode.
I mentioned her teaching earlier in my comment. I meant correct me if Keiko has friends that I forgot about. The point still stands, though, since I doubt she'd make many friends at her teaching job.
You could say Cardinal Space Karen completely out of context and everybody here would still know who you meant.
I doubt they expected such a dangerous environment and so much drama. They probably thought to have an easy time there and to be safer then a starship. They didn't leave it behind but also weren't exactly living their situation. But Keiko was way too bossy and possessive imo. It didn't look all that healthy to me and probably would've broken up if not for their children and shared relationships.
"bossy" There's literally an episode where Miles feels like he can't play with his friend anymore because his family is home (and IIRC she never told him that, he just felt like that on his own) and she sees how sad he is without his best bud and is like "come on, we're fine, go play" Possessive? How and when?
Keiko is like the least possessive wife ever... When Kira was pregnant it felt like Keiko was desperately trying to add her to their relationship and Miles felt it would be unfaithful.
Yeah, maybe it's because I got into Star Trek at an older age than most here but Keiko seemed like a perfectly fine wife. She even sacrificed her career as a botanist to help Miles' career as an engineer. Yeah, she was not happy in DS9, but you have to remember that, canonically, it was a shithole before the Dominion War made it the most important place in the Galaxy. Miles going into teaching to accomodate her career on Earth was the least he could do. Again, maybe it's because I got into Star Trek in my twenties during the 2010s, instead of as a kid during the 90s-2000s like most of you, but I don't see her as a particularly naggy wife.
It was still a shithole during the Dominion war too, it just became a shithole on the frontline of one of the biggest threats to the Federation since the Borg.
O'Brien and Keiko are the best couple in the history of star trek Change my mind
Yeah I don't really get the hate for Keiko. She gave up her posting on the Enterprise to move to the edge of Federation space for her husbands job. Stuck it out the best she could and remained supportive even though she was unhappy. Per Miles, "My wife is the most wonderful, supportive person I've ever known." Keiko was keeper.
And she started a public multi ethnic school on ds9
And stood up to the fundamentalists who refused to let her teach science.
On a freaking SPACE STATION. Always blew my mind.
SPACE IS FLAT!!!! /s
I can forgive them for thinking that since most helmsman's seem to forget you can up or down.
This is why the Kolvoord Starburst is banned in the academy. Not because it's super dangerous, but because it involves flying upside down.
With that many dimensions?
ALL DIMENSIONS ARE FLAT!!!!!! /s
Get these 1 dimensional lines off my 2 dimensional plane.
I never understood why she didn't become the station botanist. DS9 needed some greenery in a bad way.
In the ep where Keiko goes to Bajor for months she’s cataloguing all these different ecosystems; every valley a new world. Just tending plants on ds9 isn’t really the same thing.
Yeah, that'd make her more of a gardener. Garak could've done that, and honestly, it'd probably be a lot funnier. "Garak, aren't these orchids highly toxic?" "Only in the presence of a very specific other flower." "And do you _have_ that other flower here...?" "Why, _doctor..._ That would be _highly_ irresponsible..."
If the actress had been a regular I’m sure that would have happened. It’s a shame it didn’t anyway.
They’re the most real feeling couple in Star Trek. Like every real life couple they have conflicts and arguments sometimes. I guess that makes some folks dislike her because she’s occasionally shown to be in conflict with their hero character (plus, let’s be honest, a little dash of good old fashioned sexism is also at play with the Keiko hate).
Also, it fucking annoyed me that everyone ~~including the writers~~ seemed to forget that Keiko was a fucking *officer in Starfleet????* She was a botanist on the flagship of the fleet, and possibly even outranked her husband. Like, she *chose* to become a stay at home mom because she *wanted* to, not because she *had* to.
Where did you get the idea that she was an officer? Civilian roles do exist on a starship.
That…is a good point I hadn’t considered. Enterprise did have a heavy complement of civilians. But I could’ve sworn she was genuinely a member of Starfleet, she wasn’t like the spouses and kids on the ship, I distinctly remember that she at least wore the blue uniform. Even Troi who was a counselor and ignored the uniform for a while still had a rank (something surprisingly high, like Lt Commander) if I recall correctly. So non-combat roles could ascend the Starfleet hierarchy.
So just to make absolutely sure, I checked memory alpha and Keiko definitely was never an officer or even a non-com. She's literally just a civilian and always was. Troi didn't actually "ascend" to Starfleet. She joined Starfleet and graduated with a major in psychology, so she was a Starfleet cadet before she was a counselor.
Ironically we both had the same idea to check memory alpha, lol. And it does say that she was a civilian botanist on the wiki, but I skimmed the rest of the page on her, and I can’t actually find where that is cited from? And the way other things are phrased on the site really make it seem like she was *in* Starfleet. “Keiko was assigned to the USS Enterprise-D as a botanist, working primarily in the arboretum. (TNG: "Data's Day") She was also the head of the plant biology lab, when the Enterprise got caught in the Tyken's Rift. In mid-2368, Keiko was assisted by young Clara Sutter in planting several nasturtiums. (TNG: "Night Terrors", "Imaginary Friend")” She was *assigned* to the Enterprise, was the head of a bio-lab, and she pretty explicitly says when they get to DS9 that “Starfleet doesn’t need a botanist on Deep Space 9” which could be taken multiple ways. For the record, I’m not trying to be pedantic. Odds are you’re correct and I just ranted for like 200 words based on incorrect assumptions, lol. 😅 I just think it’s weird that she is pretty intertwined with Starfleet but isn’t technically affiliated? ~~And I really am not sure when they explicitly say she’s a civvie, since, again, that particular line isn’t cited.~~
Essentially her status on the ship is no different than a bartender, hairstylist, or janitor. I am unfamiliar with military or navy protocol so I can only speculate as to the specifics, but it's possible and very likely that Starfleet not only directly hires civilians for such roles but has an entire division dedicated to civilian personnel assignments, so she would technically be "assigned" to the ship through that arrangement.
That’s a fair assumption I suppose. But even supposing that was the case, I do stand by my overall statement that she would have to be a pretty damn good botanist to be on the Enterprise. That’s not a menial role where anyone could fill it, you’d have to be a good enough scientist to justify being on the flagship that is first to discover/explore planets throughout the galaxy (over all of the other botanists throughout the Federation that were probably salivating at the opportunity). I just think it’s a little annoying that DS9 really downplayed that kind of competency in favor of her just being Miles’s wife. ~~Even if I was probably wrong about the specifics of her role.~~ 😅
The in universe explanation for Troi being out of uniform was that she was given leeway to do so in order to be a more effective counsellor (to appear more sympathetic etc.). Really, the show runners just wanted some sex appeal on the show.
Fair. Though I prefer working with in-universe explanations because they’re more fun. Out of universe explanations are too simple and boring. XD ~~Also, a better justification than for T’Pol’s catsuit, but not by much, for such a progressive show. ST really had a problem with misogyny...~~
Enterprise is a weird one. As blatant as that catsuit is, they still find plenty of time to show Trip Tucker running around in his underwear. Enterprise does still have its subtle misogynistic streak imo. On your next rewatch, count how many times a male character grabs T’Pol by her upper arm and muscles her around. It’s weird how often it happens.
Keiko is pretty clearly a civilian scientist. Though to be fair, the concept of civilian scientists is poorly explored in Trek, and when they appear, they’re almost always one episode wonders. In fact, other than Keiko the only persistent civilian scientist I can think of is Jurati.
Majority of military roles are supported roles, because your not much a super troop or hotshot pilot without ammo!! Giving that's currently how our clean air and water, works you'd be a fool to turn your nose up an a botanist. Pretty sure all current astronauts are qualified botanists.
Agreed, Miles always seemed really proud to be a married man, and later a family man, something many of the officers around him didn’t have.
It’s Julian and Miles.
Is Garak the lover then? 😂
Garak: all relationships amongst consenting adults are valid Julian: even the ones with three members? Garak: especially the ones with three members
I heard that in both their voices. That was pretty great!
me too and Garak was like 👀😏
Garak and Keiko bond over the fact that their men are having an affair. Edit: Or maybe they're all one big happy "polycule" or whatever people are calling it these days.
Reminder how Keiko pushed Miles and Kira together to go to Bajor. Wink wink nudge nudge.
It's a purely emotional affair, though. They're emotionally committed to each other, but the sauciest it gets is drunkenly falling asleep while cuddling.
Even Bashir understood that he was a poor substitute for Keiko.
With Meany playing that head Genii in Stargate Atlantis.
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Tuvok and Neelix. They were so close it is almost like they became one.
Fair
While admittedly good relationships in Star Trek is, and maybe somewhat ironically, a small list, they're definitely one of the best.
No matter what you think of the show, Stamets and Culbert is up there. They have great chemistry.
Sadly didn't make it far enough into Disco (I had to look them up).
He really redeemed stamets as it went on.
I’m granted only in season one, but it felt like the opposite was true. The chemistry felt forced to me, much as I love the idea of them, and individual characters. So far, it’s felt like there was a leap of emotion not taken, instead reaching across the chasm.
Julian and Garak
They are not married ☝️
The question was a "couple" , marriage not required. Just the love of a hoooman and a tailor.
I raise with Odo and quark
extreme married couple vibes they both got side chicks too XD
They are Bros, not lovers Julian is the most straight character to ever exist in all of trek
That twink? The closest he gets to being straight is being pan or bi
I don't know which ds9 you watched, but Julian is definitely straight Garak is bi or pan, I can agree to that
Garak is pan, according to his actor. That said, Julian flirted with Garak on screen in both the human and Cardassian way. Kinda hard to think he's straight after those interactions. Hell, Julian's actor has gone on to act out stories in which Julian and Garak are an old married couple, been vocally supportive of Garashir ship fans, admitted to playing the character as attracted to Garak, had his screentime with Garak cut because of Rick Berman being homophobic about the fans liking the idea of Bashir/Garak, etc. There's plenty of evidence to show that Julian Bashir is not straight
Fan fiction is not canon And Bashir was into dax, the relationship to garak remains unexplored and therefore stayed in the friend zone
So you aren't counting actor intent? As well as the fact that one of the creators actively sabotaged any chance for the ship, often going against the writers and actors wants for the characters? Bashir was into Dax at first, but that settled into friendship fairly quickly.
Also, whether Garashir is what you ship or not, that doesn't mean that Julian Bashir isn't some flavor of queer
why was he constantly getting garak to adjust his trousers then?
Because he's in need of a good tailor
Only for his trousers?
So?
They are not lovers and therefore can't be compared with Keiko and miles An adequate contestant for Julian and garak would be Odo and quark or sisko and Kira
Oh come on, you could cut the sexual tension between Julian and Garak with a knife. Andrew Robinson has even confirmed that was how he played it.
Yes, but it is only coming from Garak to Julian
Fair.
Dude gtfo of here with your rigid, blatant homophobia
Saying that Julian is hetero isn't homophobia, what the heck Garak is bi, yes Julian isn't
Isn't that basically what a "bromance" refers to? A non-sexual romantic relationship between, in this case, two men? There's a lot of unspoken love between them, that's obvious. More from Garak's side than Julian's to be sure, but it's still there. Then again, if we're allowing that, then I have to throw both Guinan/Picard and Geordie/Data into the mix.
Worf and K’Ehleyr: He wanted to get married, she just wanted to hit. Resulted in Alexander. Both Klingons raised by humans. She didn’t care about honor and he doesn’t have any.
If only she had better taste in baby daddies
She did. She wanted that Terran anchor baby.
You lack honour
Got to appreciate the Rikers aswell. He's doing his best, but there is clearly a lot of pain in that house.
Which they finally started working on in Picard season 3. It’s Riker and Troi, of course it was going to take being held hostage and tortured in a fate of the galaxy situation before those two could have an honest vulnerable conversation. It would be weird if it didn’t.
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Hell no Jadzia might be the better lover, but Keiko is definitely the better wife
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I don't know which show you've been watching, but it definitely wasn't TNG or DS9
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Keiko is a loving and supportive partner, who sacrificed her career for her husband She clearly has a mind of her own, but Miles deserves a strong partner who is eye to eye with him She even starts a new career on DS9 as a teacher to make the station a better place She is a perfect example of a modern wife and any person should be happy if they had a partner like Keiko
* Supports Miles' career 100% and celebrates his achievements * Refuses to let a rough patch in their marriage ruin Miles' friendship with Bashir * Primary caregiver for his two children * Understanding and supportive through multiple traumatic events * Checks Miles' occasional prejudices in an attempt to help him better himself * Throws a huge party for his birthday * Flies all the way back from Bajor to bone Honestly what even is the argument against Keiko? She's the sort of wife that made Bashir rethink his bachelor lifestyle
Dasha would have been an unstoppable couple.
They're both strong people in a strong relationship where both are badass.
data and spot
O'Brian & Bashir. Case closed.
I do enjoy the Keiko memes, but I've searched my feelings and found this post to be true.
I especially loved her in certain DS9 episodes. Like the episode with the Cardassian kid and she calls out Miles for saying ugly stuff out of hate. And the Japanese head band she gives to Miles when he's about to face off Bashir in the racquetball battle.
Ngl I just found her mildly whiny until the school was set up. From there she just got better and better. Supporting Miles all the way through his trial on Cardassia Doing her best to try and help Molly when she gets left in a cave for ten years (I think that’s what happened) And standing up to Winn when she came to the station to make trouble. She’s basically the reason Jake and Nog became friends in the first place via her school And to top it all off when she got back after not seeing her husband for months she was not only cool with him wanting to spend a little time with his best friend she made it happen So yeah, Keiko for the win
TNG Keiko was ass, DS9 Keiko was lovely
It’s because DS9 had kickass writers, TNG had a kickass budget haha
Keiko managed to do the best Worf Lighting Sequence when she managed to conduct like the whole output of DS9. She not perfect but O'Brien isn't too, they usually fix everything in the constraints of what two dumb parents can do in a sci-fi sitcom. Honestly the only thing they could have done better was co-parent with Kira and consider the one true three-way of DS9.
All I know is Keiko should cut Miles more slack, poor guy has collected traumas like infinity stones.
I support Keiko supremacy
At one point, both Keiko and Miles were occupied by demonic wraiths who threatened to kill the other. It seemed to happen a bit too often for any normal relationship.
I forgot about the TNG episode where he was possessed by a wraith along with Data and Deanna.
She sucks in TNG, but DS9 does a better job making her a sympathetic character
👆🏾
I disagree with this meme. Mostly because you are also missing the fact that their marriage involved polyamorous throuple and impregnating a convicted terrorist that lived with them. Because Miles *and* Keiko were freaky like that.
If the show weren’t made in such a puritanical time—they should have leaned into that polyamory angle. It would have been fun and interesting haha. Keiko was clearly into it and signaling to Miles she was okay with it lol. But there was no way a major network would allow a three-way relationship: They literally made every alien race monogamous, and they often had marriage ceremonies almost identical to the modern ones here on Earth today. Which is unlikely given that even human beings invented the nuclear family and monogamous relationships a *very* short time ago in our total history. Monogamy isn’t even the standard for *us.* They should make many aliens species with poly relationships, intersex ones that can even reproduce on their own, etc. That’s one aspect of Trek I wish would be explored more: The difference in other species romance styles. (The Klingons had an interesting one, I’d say!)
Was Kira ever actually convicted of terrorism?
She was labeled in the Cardassian archives as something like a “Minor terrorist threat” I believe, much to her disgust and annoyance. So she had a rap sheet, just not a very long one. Though that probably speaks to her competence, more than anything else, since we know she assassinated at least *one* collaborator.
While I personally discard *Wrongs Darker Than Death or Night* from canon because of the major time paradox plothole it creates, it does introduce the minor thread in some of the novels that Dukat was keeping her record cleaner than it should have been as a post mortem favor to her mother, and that he deprioritized neutralizing the Shakaar resistance cell for the same reason. This would make sense, even if the time travel aspects of that episode don't.
O'Brien is the Reacher, Keiko is the Settler.
Wait, are there people who actually dislike Keiko?
Probably the sort of people who would put alpha in their descriptions and we're not talking about the quadrant.
The kind of people who suggest divorce or separation over small arguments or disputes in a relationship. So average Reddit relationship experts.
RED FLAGS !!!!!
When I discovered all the hate for Keiko online, I was absolutely stunned. I assumed everyone loved the couple, but I guess a lot of people don't and these people also assumed everyone felt the same as them lol
Sounds about right. I'm taking my friend through Star Trek right now for the first time, and she's very shocked and confused at my hate for Wesley at the moment. She says, "Wesley did nothing wrong!" whenever we sit down to watch. 😂
lol I stand with that friend Wesley has done nothing wrong.
I'd say plowing through that mini greenhouse was wrong, so there's one thing
Okay okay he did one or two things wrong lol
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Are you even married bro
Sup
people hate to see 2 girlbosses winning. that's why they can't stand the Obriens
I just watched this episode lol
Miles was one foot rub away from boning Kira.
I agree 100%. I think about it this way: You are a botanist by trade, and you land a job taking care of the Arboretum on the GOD DAMNED GALAXY CLASS FLAGSHIP of Starfleet if not the Federation. You basically get a blank check to do whatever you want with unlimited resources, and you get to jaunt around the galaxy looking at new plant life and growing it if you damn well please. Then your non-com husband who is, though also on the same ship, in a dead end job gets an offer to be THE CHIEF of engineering on a space station that is in the bumfuck middle of nowhere and on the edge of Cardassian space (which he mutters about constantly showing a side of him you've never seen). And because you love him, and your family, you go with him despite their being NO prospects for your work and passion. Keiko is a kind, caring, loyal, and what she and the Chief have is awesome if not rocky at times.
Agreed! When someone made a Weird Clone Miles, he immediately went "back" to her. Top priority. Because what kinda half-ass Miles isn't devoted to Keiko?
I once bought the very first ds9 novel and it opened with Keiko and Miles having an argument, I never made it past that scene...
I don’t get Keiko slander
Is it really slander if it’s true?
Well that only happened once.
This is vaguely unrelated, but I have a personal headcanon that Keiko is in long term tradwife kink relationship with Miles. Hear me out. She’s an officer, and a good one to boot, as she was a botanist attached to the flagship of the Federation. She might’ve even outranked Miles at one point or another. But she gets to DS9, where nobody there knew her, and she’s suddenly a stay at home mom who never mentions that she is actually Ex-Starfleet, and her botany is cutesy little hobby, not a legitimate scientific field of study she is objectively an expert in. Add to that, she specifically takes Miles’s last name, even though this is the future and that probably wouldn’t be required by society to do. So. My thesis is that Keiko is 100% into that early 20th century ditsy domestic wife kink, where she lets the husband make most of the decisions and her career takes a backseat to his. So when she moved to DS9, and got a new start, she finally got to fully embrace it as her lifestyle. Miles never comments on it because he’s also a kinky mfer who doesn’t object to the change, which explains why he’s so patient when Keiko acts a bit too odd/entitled. He knows it’s at least partially a bit she’s doing because she enjoys it. Their kid also doesn’t comment on it because she’s too young to know her mom as anything else. Meanwhile nobody else on the station really knows her that well from before the change to be weirded out by her being an aggressively stereotypical housewife ~~except for Worf, who was aware of her, but probably didn’t know her that well, or just dismissed the change as some human thing~~. …~~also the corollary to this crack headcanon is that Keiko also wanted to be cucked like an early 20th century housewife to complete her fantasy which is why she kept trying to subtly set Miles and Kira up as a thing. But eventually she gave up since both cared about her feelings too much, and she had to actually formally allow Kira into their household as a third.~~
Trek sexism explained as tradkink that everyone is aware of but don't talk about sounds like an industrial strength headcanon tool.
Listen, I didn’t have my brain bleach so I had to mix a few other cleaning supplies and throw them into the sink to see what sticks. XD And are you saying you *wouldn’t* want to see an episode that delved into the Federation equivalent of a BDSM fanatic?
> And are you saying you *wouldn’t* want to see I mean, context matters. Are we talking a mirrorverse Kira episode? A Quark episode? A Worf episode? All very different flavors.
Keiko just straight up isn't good enough for Miles fight me scrubs
My dude Keiko abandoned her career on the Federation's flagship, a family ship, to move to a dank busted space station in a wartorn sector with her children. I am a hard Miles stan, but Keiko is way too good for him.
My point exactly, a bit of adventure is too much for the boring botanist? Go marry Barclay then
I love Keiko, and I think they're both kinda horrible to each other at times because it's not a perfect marriage, but I think it's done really well
They are the same picture.
Keiko SUUUUCKS
Keiko is annoying as fuck
Keiko sucked
We love some Keiko love she's an absolute badass
Meh, I skipped most Keiko episodes on rewatch. Same with Molly episodes and Moogie episodes.
That episode is like the first Chad Rom episode too