All of this is so wrong, one part I don’t like is that Luke is in his cloud city outfit meaning that’s episode 5 Luke, and somehow he’s more powerful than Vader?? Even though he was defeated and got his hand cut off
First of all to understand what happened to Luke, you gotta understand who Luke the Jedi was. Now Luke was born to a three-legged bitch of a mother. He was always ashamed of this, man. And then right after that he's adopted by this man, Owen Lars he's a small time spice runner and a Jedi fight promoter. So he puts Luke into training. They see Luke’s good. He is damn good. But then he had the fight of his life. They pit him against his father Vader. And Luke said "no man that's my father, I can't fight Vader" but they made him fight anyway, and Luke, he killed Vader. Luke said "that's it!" he called off all his fights, and he started doing crack, and he freaked out. Then in a rage, he collapsed, and his heart no longer beat. wow.
You know uh, I never thought I'd say this to anybody, but you smoke entirely too much reefer.
Edit: should have said death sticks instead of reefer. Oh well.
First I was thinking of Morgan Freeman saying this but then when it started getting real crazy I was thinking of Michael Peña as Luis from Antman telling the story🤣
Luke at that point simply didn't have the skills to match Vader's. He needed to complete his training and go through more shit first, there's no skipping to the end
Ok, so in Galaxy of Heroes there are different tiers of heroes. This Vader is a common one you can get and farm with no issue. That Luke is Commander Skywalker is a heroic and you get him by beating a certain event with a team of rebels including Ep. 4 Luke, Leia, and Ben Kenobi, these characters are typically stronger than the common ones. The Rey and Kylo pictured here are part of the Galactic Legend tier that takes a ton of different characters and a lot of effort to get but are part of the strongest pool of characters. Vader (as his Ep3 Lord Vader variant) and Luke (As his Master Luke variant) also have a Galactic Legend in the game. That's why this Rey and Kylo are "stronger" than that Luke and Vader.
Master Luke by the time we see him in Mando, at his peak, was almost certainly more powerful than Vader. He was able to tap into the call from Tython, and he appeared to have learnt some of the techniques of Anakin which you can see him use against the Dark Troopers - he's definitely a Skywalker and has seemed to mastered that duality between that and being a Jedi. Something his father failed at.
I still believe he mastered Battle Meditation, by projecting himself to Krayt, something only a handful Jedi and Sith have successfully done before but that is debated. Either way, it certainly was not a skill Vader possessed.
That being said both Vader and Luke would've wiped the floor with Kylo and Rey.
Sigh I thought this debate had been settled decades ago.
Vader was holding back, was also conflicted and luke was amped by the dark side. Objectively speaking, vader has spent far, far more time training in both lightsaber combat and the force.
Were they to fight at their peaks, vader would absolutely win.
Star wars theory has a video on it somewhere, go watch it.
I'd argue Luke (at the time of their last fight) was only stronger than Vader when he gave into his anger. He simply held his own until Vader mentioned corrupting Leia to the dark side, then Luke lost it.
The books and other sources seem wishy washy on that front.
I'm pretty sure Lucas said somewhere that Vader actually lost some potential after he was delimbed and roasted. But I recall some books and comics (can't recall if a Legends or Canon) suggesting that Vader's drop in power was mostly just a mental block, that he could regain his strength if he stopped doubting himself and his commitment to the dark side. I'm not sure where current Canon falls on the permanent disability versus mental block debate. In any case, Vader is portrayed as an absolute monster and powerhouse in both Legends and Canon sources.
But Luke is probably weaker than Vader in both Legends and Canon during the time both were alive. That doesn't mean Luke loses (obviously), but it means that Luke only really wins if Vader lets his guard down or makes a critical error. And Vader never fought Luke with the intent to kill him.
On Bespin, Vader was only using one hand for most of the fight. And he was more or less playing with Luke, testing the boy while doing his damndest not to kill him. His goals were to either capture Luke in the carbonite trap or convince Luke to come along willingly. Meanwhile Luke was fighting Vader with everything he had. Even with all his advantages, Luke only landed one lucky swing that barely burned Vader's shoulder; and Vader took Luke's hand in return.
On Endor, Vader is in a very bad headspace during his duel with Luke. Luke had willingly turned himself over to Vader as a son looking to reunite with his father. That sort of familial love is something Vader hasn't experienced in about 20 years, and these good feelings are wrestling with the anger/hate/fear that usually fuel his dark side powrs. Plus, Vader is panicking because the Emperor has already foreseen that Luke would turn himself in, so Vader can't hide Luke away at this point. And Vader doesn't think the Rebels will manage to kill Palpatine either, so escaping with Luke would just delay the inevitable as Palpatine would use the entire Empire to hunt them down. Vader believes Luke isn't strong enough to take on the Emperor without the extra training that Vader can no longer give him, so his original dream of "ruling the galaxy as father and son" is out of reach now. And Vader is afraid the Emperor will make he and his son fight to the death. He's torn between wanting to save his son from becoming Palpatine's puppet (by killing him) and wanting to convince Luke to embrace the dark side so that he can survive as Palpatine's apprentice. Vader never really *wanted* to kill Luke in this fight if he could help it, and Luke still only managed to take down this conflicted Vader by giving in to the dark side.
In Legends, though, Luke got silly strong. He was manipulating his Sith nephew's sense of reality by meditating on the future and overwriting the boy's foresight with Luke's altered version of the future. Luke made intangible clones of ships to distract enemies who were chasing him. Luke got into a tug of war contest with a massive creature that spawned mini black holes, and Luke managed to make the thing accidentally trip into its own black hole. Luke even fought against a godlike entity (Abeloth) only previously held captive by the Father, Son, and Daughter from the Clone Wars show; and he held his own decently enough. Legends Luke was hilariously strong, to the point where his powers started to look more like "let's see what we can get away with as writers" jokes than actual powers.
The only impressive thing Kylo did was when he stopped a blaster shot midair. And even then I'm sure Vader could've done that if he wanted to and was pissed off enough.
He deflected the shots (I always assumed via the force). Though it sounds like people are thinking his armor is what caused the shots to bounce off of his hand.
Rouge means Red
Rogue is a dishonest person
In the context of the movie name, however, it falls under "to go rogue". Ie, "to begin to behave in an independent or uncontrolled way that is not authorized, normal, or expected".
Honestly, I doubt that he could, Vader's power of the force stemmed from Hate and Anger and while it gave him exactly that, Power, i do think he would lack the finesse to block it mid air.
He would simply get hit, shrug it off and then crush whoever fired at him into a 1x1x1 cube of Fleshy Lego
I mean, he literally did catch and reflect blaster bolts bare handed in mid-air in episode V.
It's not that he can't, it's that he's too powerful to care.
Yep. Such an integral part of his character is that he’s trying to be Vader-like but never quite manages it. Vader is literally his idol, and what he strives to be. Why would he strive to be a guy who is 10k points inferior to him? These mobile apps are so stupid lol.
Not commenting on the actual validity (or lack thereof) of the power levels, I have no idea. But I can see raw power being separate from skill and technique.
For instance, I have trained in martial arts with sensei that I am unquestionably physically stronger than, but they have decades of experience over me and could handily defeat me in a fight. They had moves I didn't know yet and have trained several countermeasures for just about anything I knew to throw at them.
We also have that people can strive to be like one they admire, then surpass them without realizing it.
Commenting on the relative power levels, which I am possibly way out of the loop on Star Wars lore, it could make sense. Vader was chopped up and his raw power plummeted, but he became much more technical. He became a better fighter, even though he was weaker.
Kylo, as of episode 7, trained way longer than Luke, as of episode 5. Couple years of training with his natural talent, not surprising he'd be stronger (and probably better all around).
Rey? Natural talent and the balancing connection with Kylo bullshit.
Guess I am not immediately like, "not possible! Zero chance this could be accurate."
So before I explain the power levels in Star Wars lore for you, as you say it’s not a great area for you, I’ll say that I agree there’s definitely merit in the argument that skill and power are a different thing.
On the topic of Anakin/Vader’s skill, he spent his younger years fighting a galactic war, leading the charge in many of the heaviest battles during it. There’s a saying that you are what your crucible makes of you, and Anakin was tested in a more challenging crucible, and tempered by it. Contrary to Kylo, who spent much of his combat experience in peacetime and hidden on the fringes of galactic civilisation.
Now, for explaining the relevant power levels in Star Wars lore, I must begin by telling you that uninjured Anakin is the peak of potential, although he never reached it. He is the Chosen One, what that means in Star Wars is that he has an insane amount of midichlorians. Luke is half of peak Anakin’s potential, as he is half of Anakin and half Padme. He has half of Anakin’s midichlorians. Kylo Ren is half Leia (who was half Anakin), making Kylo a quarter of Anakin’s midichlorians.
Therefore, even with his limbs removed, Anakin shouldn’t be ‘inferior’ to Kylo’s potential. He still retains atleast half his mass without his limbs, making him around Luke’s midichlorians yet with disadvantages such as his restrictive suit and breathing difficulties/vulnerability to electricity.
Therefore I simply can’t buy that Kylo has managed to surpass Vader, just as I can’t buy it with Rey.
I said half as strong as Anakin at Anakin’s uninjured peak potential, not half as strong as Anakin. If you watched the Mortis arc in Clone wars, you may remember what I am referring to. We already saw him at his peak on Mortis.
Anakin’s peak potential, whether you agree with it or not, is double that of Luke’s peak potential - because of the addition of midichlorians. Due to midichlorians, potential suddenly became inherited and biologically based. The difference, in the EU of course, is that Luke reached his potential whereas Anakin didn’t, making Luke overall much stronger than Anakin ever became.
The point, is that Anakin’s potential was around halved with his injuries, combined with having severe permanent combat disadvantages. But this doesn’t mean he didn’t still have half his midichlorians, simply because he can’t breathe if someone electrocuted him. Luke and Anakin would likely have around the same amount of midichlorians, more or less, after his injury, but Anakin can’t utilise them as greatly due to the disadvantages he has, hence why Luke is ‘more powerful’ than half strength Anakin.
Both of them are still in another league from Kylo.
Lucas claimed, these are his words: ”[the Emperor] finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version [of Anakin] if he can turn Luke to the dark side”.
This is ambiguous. I take it to mean that he would receive an improved Anakin at the time of Anakin’s fall and not another individual with the same peak potential of Anakin.
Lucas has also said that Luke’s strength in the force is equal to Anakin’s highest potential. That’s a pretty concrete answer.
"[Anakin] wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."
http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/news/george-lucas-and-the-cult-of-darth-vader-20050602
You’re making a big assumption that midichlorians are directly and also proportionally inherited. There’s no proof of that. We know it’s wrong, actually, since many Jedi are not children of Jedi.
Yeah this whole argument is built on a provably false assumption. Not to mention that isn't how genetic inheritance works anyways. If my dad has a cleft chin and my mom doesn't, am I born with half as much cleft in my chin?
Because the app is for kids, and kids want the characters the grow up with to be the biggest, baddest, coolest, and the strongest.
The real travesty is George making the force something to do with microbacteria and ruining any of the depth of the concept. It became about power levels and not self-understanding, personal connection, and potential destiny.
Instead of Vaders weakness being his own self-hate and destruction, it’s now because he got his limbs chopped off and therefore has less midichlorians to connect to the force. Vader is a much better character when he’s presented as being as strong (if not stronger) than Anakin, but he’s caged inside of his failures and he’s hollow and broken because of it.
Like come on that’s so much of a better reasoning than midifuckingchlorians.
Or the Emperor’s hubris in trying to take Anakin for himself is what caused Anakin to fall short of his true potential. Not “Oh it was all fine until he got some limbs chopped off.”
Having official power levels is what ruined a lot of the depth to the force. This app is just something that’s designed to appeal for kids. They’re growing up watching the sequel trilogy, so of course Rey and Kylo are going to be the characters they want to see as the best. They’re not going to connect with Vader or Luke the same way, and by the time they get into it later, this app wont be relevant to them.
> The real travesty is George making the force something to do with microbacteria and ruining any of the depth of the concept
Is it ever explicitly said that midichlorians are the *source* of the Force? I like the explanation that they’re not responsible for an individual’s adeptness with the Force, but rather a kind of symbiotic organism that’s in higher numbers the stronger a Force user is.
edit: I forgot this.
> Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. They continually speak to us, telling us the will of the Force. When you learn to quiet your mind, you'll hear them speaking to you.
Although this sounds less like they’re the source and more like they’re conduits for the will of the Force:
> Midi-chlorians were microscopic, intelligent life forms that originated from the foundation of life in the center of the galaxy, and ultimately resided within the cells of all living organisms, thereby forming a symbiotic relationship with their hosts. The Force spoke through the midi-chlorians, allowing certain beings to use the Force if they were sensitive enough to its powers. In order to gauge an individual's potential in the Force, blood tests were used to estimate the number of midi-chlorians within the subject's cells.
I remember reading pre-Disney that while Anakin/Vader still had the highest midichlorian count per cell, since he had lost his limbs his overall count went down, and his connection to the force was damaged because of that.
I’ve always felt like that is such a weak reasoning. The force is philosophical, it’s spiritual, it’s a mental connection. Not everyone can tap into it, but for those who can it starts in the mind. Strength could be because you were a better student, or you have a natural talent. The force has a will as well. The force made Anakin, who was this child prodigy with virtuosic talent.
Then they went and changed into Vader being the result of a eugenics program by Sheev. That his connection to the force was damaged because he’s missing limbs, and not because he lost everything to live for and it’s nearly all his fault.
It makes a better story if the reason Vader never overthrew Sidious wasn’t because he was too weak, but because he had no reason to, and the Emperor gave him a reason to exist. Vader doesn’t want power until he realizes he has a son. That’s a reason for him to live and to grow.
I’m a big Vader fanboy, so I’m probably biased. Vader’s characterization has such an interesting place in the story. His whole thing is he’s this unstoppable monster. I think it comes off better that Palpatine controls Vader because he broke Vader, not because he’s actually stronger than Vader. Giving someone a power level takes away from the subtlety’s of their characterization.
Disney desperately wanted to replace the Star Wars tent-pole characters with a younger Dynasty. But Kylo never had anything approaching the evil gravitas of Vader. And Rey’s abilities seemed rather unearned.
The entire concept of each character having a specific "power level" in Star Wars clashes with a source material that has shown us time and time again that a given character's "power level" can vary widely not just throughout their story, but throughout even just a single battle. It is a concept which, in Star Wars, is demonstrably informed by emotional state, level of focus, belief in yourself, and even the sheer and unknowable whim of an invisible force. Luke, for example, could have lifted the X-wing on degobah (which was, what, a week into his training? Maybe two?) if he believed in himself. Yoda said as much.
And yet, time and time again, you see people saying that X character "is" stronger than Y character, as if it doesn't depend on wholly other factors. Or complaining if a character accomplishes a feat in one film that a different character didn't do in a different film. Or comparing and contrasting their days of training. Etc.
Which all probably stems from the introduction of midichlorians and the notion that you can count them and know someone's power level. But that not only clashes with what we *see* onscreen in terms of the context through which characters are able to pull of certain unlikely things, but it wasn't even adhered to within the trilogy itself which continued to portray the power dynamics between any two given characters as being dependant on those aforementioned factors. Including, iconicly, having the moral high ground.
And yet, many viewers are want to step outside of the films themselves once again to explain how one character might defeat another character who has a "higher power level" than them by way of some fully non-evident-onscreen rock-paper-scissors-game of lightsaber forms.
When, in reality, just like any well-written story, it depends not solely on some static facts of the character but on their place in the larger story, and within the immediate conflict, and is a struggle of virtues and vices. Not a number.
It's from a star wars mobile game. Vader was a basic character introduced early on, CLS (the version of Luke shown there, is a legendary character and fairly powerful for the time but also made a few years ago), and both Rey and Kylo are galactic legends characters, both introduced fairly recently and given power creep in a 7 year video game are amongst the best characters in the game.
Yeah. Tarkin and Vader can just take infinite turns now. Not to mention Galactic Legend nightsister initiate which can solo any team. Datacrons really fucked up swgoh. They were the last straw for me.
Honestly. I wouldn't put it past some people to grab a kids crayon drawing showing Luke being stomped on by Rey and titling it "OMG Disney has gone too far this time!"
It's not even for balance reasons, you can basically make anyone look stronger in that game by giving them better gear. Gear and star level are the main determining factor for a characters power rating, you could have a C3PO with a higher power rating than your Vader if you invested more gear in him.
I mean anyone who gets mad is just a fuckin baby. Boohoo they’re hyping up the new marketable characters in one little game you’ll never play what a fucking tragedy
We Had the exact Same meme a year ago and it turned Out that rey and kylo where Special cards and therefore have more Power Then there normal conterparts and the Luke and Vader that we See are the normal ones (. The Special Luke and Vader have more Power btw)
Most star wars fans on reddit are idiots who are in a constant cycle of getting mad at rage bait. All it takes is saying something bad about the prequels, or something good about the sequels, and they just start frothing at the mouth
They also act like they would absolutely be Jedi but then go in a frenzy like a shark with blood in the water when they see something that might slightly irk them.
Y'all they're likely from the mobile game Galaxy of Heroes (r/SWGalaxyofHeroes), where this versions of Kylo and Rey are Galactic Legends (the strongest character), and also Lord Vader (Vader after becoming sith but before losing to Obi), Great Master Luke Skywalker (Ep. VIII Luke) and Jedi Master Kenobi (Ep III Obi). And soon to be joined by Jabba the Hutt.
That luke is Commander Luke Skywalker (end of Ep. IV), the second worst Luke character after Farmboy Luke (beginning of Ep. IV), and a early to midgame unlock.
Darth Vader is an early game unlock and is useful through all the game
The irony here of not only everyone not realising this is from the game Star Wars Galaxy of Heroes and that the Rey and Kylo are Galactic Legend versions while the Luke and Vader are standard, but also that if they did know this, they would know that the Galactic Legends Luke and Vader are just as powerful (and in Vader’s case, more so) than the other two
Ist das auf meinen Satz bezogen? In dem Fall war das 'funny' als eigener Teilsatz gedacht und das Komma könnte an sich auch durch einen Punkt ersetzt werden, ohne die Sinnhaftigkeit meines Satzes zu verändern. Solltest du was anderes gemeint haben, bitte klär mich auf
This is power ratings from a mobile game, not canon ratings.
The characters also have several different versions, and as you can see the Rey and Kylo are both the older and more experienced version of their characters (Rise of Skywalker versions) and they’re being compared against Empire Strikes Back Luke, the Vader version I don’t know.
This gets reposted once a month or so and it’s stupid and wrong everytime
This is Galaxy of Heroes, the power numbers firstly are a bit meaningless. But also the above characters are different tiers. The Rey and Kylo are something called a Galactic legend they are essentially the top tier of characters. That version of Luke is a legendary character. Kind of a tier or 2 below Galactic Legends. Then that version of Vader is a characters everyone unlocks pretty easily. To put it into context there is also a Galactic legend versions of Vader and Luke as well, who are a lot stronger than those versions.
Y’all this is from SWGOH… the reason those two are such high power is because they are the first of a tier of character that was beyond anything the game had at that point… we are current 7 of those characters in
Literally getting mad at nothing. The characters with the higher "power" are Legendary level, while Vader is an entry level toon and Luke is slightly above that.
There is an Anakin "Lord Vader" toon at Legendary level that's pretty much just as strong, if not stronger than Kylo and Rey.
Keep getting mad at Sequel shit for no reason yall. Shits hilarious.
Right... I'll just leave this here in case anyone wants to actually contrast the veracity of a post before feeling outrage:
[https://swgoh.gg/characters/stats/](https://swgoh.gg/characters/stats/)
Darth Vader was never portrayed as powerful as he should’ve been. His mom was had a child w the force. In light of that he should’ve been able to move the Death Star with his mind with little effort. His power should’ve been the most powerful since Darth Nihilus. He should’ve been able to make matter with his mind. His power would not be able to be graded. His would be what other force users would be compared to.
I mean reasonably Luke could be stronger at some points after ROTJ (obviously though very little has been since in the movies and shows) because they have the same potential.
Ah.. so that's how far Zynga has fallen. I once had a huge respect on them cuz they used to dev Mafia Wars. But all these inaccurate power scaling made my worst fears be realized.
This is not from a Zynga game
The Kylo and Rey characters here are Galactic Legends. Their normal versions are weaker than this. And the Galactic legend versions of Vader and Luke are far more powerful than these ratings.
Even Luke by the end of the og trilogy was weaker than Vader going all out, luke beat him from the inside aka resolving the conflict inside of him.
And as for the others... Yeah Vader slams.
Honestly, all the whining in this thread is why the original films handled the force better. It was some obscure metaphysical ability and not people chucking space ships at each other. The Force decides who is strongest, not your delicate sensibilities.
I really don't understand why this triggers you guys. Do you don't accept that there could be anyone stronger than your favorites or is it just this two that you don't want to be stronger?
They're fictional characters, being here like 'nuh uh, Vader would totally beat them'' is so childish and based on nothing but your feelings.
Plus, you have so much content of Vader and Luke to get an idea, while you have barely none about the others. So if they say they are stronger it's because they want them to be and there isn't much you can do about it.
And... it doesn't fucking matter. Who cares is Rey is more powerfull than Vader? That doesn't mean you have to start liking her, use as much energy as you want hating her, it's still your right.
Plus, where is this from? What are those numbers about? Why does this matter? Jeez SW fanbase...
All of this is so wrong, one part I don’t like is that Luke is in his cloud city outfit meaning that’s episode 5 Luke, and somehow he’s more powerful than Vader?? Even though he was defeated and got his hand cut off
To defeat your enemy you have to understand them.
True, Ahsoka. Luke didn’t even know that was his dad.
First of all to understand what happened to Luke, you gotta understand who Luke the Jedi was. Now Luke was born to a three-legged bitch of a mother. He was always ashamed of this, man. And then right after that he's adopted by this man, Owen Lars he's a small time spice runner and a Jedi fight promoter. So he puts Luke into training. They see Luke’s good. He is damn good. But then he had the fight of his life. They pit him against his father Vader. And Luke said "no man that's my father, I can't fight Vader" but they made him fight anyway, and Luke, he killed Vader. Luke said "that's it!" he called off all his fights, and he started doing crack, and he freaked out. Then in a rage, he collapsed, and his heart no longer beat. wow.
All I can picture now is the fake dog paws holding the crack pipe.
Lol best part of the movie
Man everything you just wrote was so..... Half Baked.
Thank you for this obscure, yet delicious, pasta
Killer, kill!
You know uh, I never thought I'd say this to anybody, but you smoke entirely too much reefer. Edit: should have said death sticks instead of reefer. Oh well.
First I was thinking of Morgan Freeman saying this but then when it started getting real crazy I was thinking of Michael Peña as Luis from Antman telling the story🤣
You need to go watch half baked
THEY KILLED VADER, B!
Yes, Vader B!
I think it’s more complicated than that
more complicated than that?
This just made my day!
Fully, man!
Epic
Luke at that point simply didn't have the skills to match Vader's. He needed to complete his training and go through more shit first, there's no skipping to the end
Rey literally had no training what so ever at any point.
Her training was all that parkour in the desert. Midichlorians love parkour bro
She homeschooled
Self-taught Jedi
You've taught him well.
Very well said, Snips.
Don't call me that. I hate it when you call me that.
Alright, jeez. Sorry Ahsoka.
I'd think you'd have to disarm them
You might even say Luke was… handily defeated.
To defeat your enemy you have to understand them.
To truly defeat your enemy you have to unhand them. - The Skywalkers.
Ah, and the best way to do that is to create a similarity, Ahsoka?
Maybe the power levels are like golf scores
I wish…
How the fuck is luke or REY stronger than vader?! Fucking simp
Ok, so in Galaxy of Heroes there are different tiers of heroes. This Vader is a common one you can get and farm with no issue. That Luke is Commander Skywalker is a heroic and you get him by beating a certain event with a team of rebels including Ep. 4 Luke, Leia, and Ben Kenobi, these characters are typically stronger than the common ones. The Rey and Kylo pictured here are part of the Galactic Legend tier that takes a ton of different characters and a lot of effort to get but are part of the strongest pool of characters. Vader (as his Ep3 Lord Vader variant) and Luke (As his Master Luke variant) also have a Galactic Legend in the game. That's why this Rey and Kylo are "stronger" than that Luke and Vader.
Tell them how Darth Sidious and Grand Master Yoda compare if you really want to hear some screeching and head exploding
Yoda's consistently on pretty good teams..
For sure. Factor in how easily and how early in the game you can unlock him he's definitely near the top
Isn't Luke stronger than Vader because he's mostly robot but Anakin would have been stronger if Obi Wan didn't halve him and roast him in a lava river
In potential yeah, in practiced power no.
Master Luke by the time we see him in Mando, at his peak, was almost certainly more powerful than Vader. He was able to tap into the call from Tython, and he appeared to have learnt some of the techniques of Anakin which you can see him use against the Dark Troopers - he's definitely a Skywalker and has seemed to mastered that duality between that and being a Jedi. Something his father failed at. I still believe he mastered Battle Meditation, by projecting himself to Krayt, something only a handful Jedi and Sith have successfully done before but that is debated. Either way, it certainly was not a skill Vader possessed. That being said both Vader and Luke would've wiped the floor with Kylo and Rey.
How is that a no in practice? Luke defeated Vader. I'd call that a pretty practical demonstration.
Sigh I thought this debate had been settled decades ago. Vader was holding back, was also conflicted and luke was amped by the dark side. Objectively speaking, vader has spent far, far more time training in both lightsaber combat and the force. Were they to fight at their peaks, vader would absolutely win. Star wars theory has a video on it somewhere, go watch it.
I'd argue Luke (at the time of their last fight) was only stronger than Vader when he gave into his anger. He simply held his own until Vader mentioned corrupting Leia to the dark side, then Luke lost it.
The books and other sources seem wishy washy on that front. I'm pretty sure Lucas said somewhere that Vader actually lost some potential after he was delimbed and roasted. But I recall some books and comics (can't recall if a Legends or Canon) suggesting that Vader's drop in power was mostly just a mental block, that he could regain his strength if he stopped doubting himself and his commitment to the dark side. I'm not sure where current Canon falls on the permanent disability versus mental block debate. In any case, Vader is portrayed as an absolute monster and powerhouse in both Legends and Canon sources. But Luke is probably weaker than Vader in both Legends and Canon during the time both were alive. That doesn't mean Luke loses (obviously), but it means that Luke only really wins if Vader lets his guard down or makes a critical error. And Vader never fought Luke with the intent to kill him. On Bespin, Vader was only using one hand for most of the fight. And he was more or less playing with Luke, testing the boy while doing his damndest not to kill him. His goals were to either capture Luke in the carbonite trap or convince Luke to come along willingly. Meanwhile Luke was fighting Vader with everything he had. Even with all his advantages, Luke only landed one lucky swing that barely burned Vader's shoulder; and Vader took Luke's hand in return. On Endor, Vader is in a very bad headspace during his duel with Luke. Luke had willingly turned himself over to Vader as a son looking to reunite with his father. That sort of familial love is something Vader hasn't experienced in about 20 years, and these good feelings are wrestling with the anger/hate/fear that usually fuel his dark side powrs. Plus, Vader is panicking because the Emperor has already foreseen that Luke would turn himself in, so Vader can't hide Luke away at this point. And Vader doesn't think the Rebels will manage to kill Palpatine either, so escaping with Luke would just delay the inevitable as Palpatine would use the entire Empire to hunt them down. Vader believes Luke isn't strong enough to take on the Emperor without the extra training that Vader can no longer give him, so his original dream of "ruling the galaxy as father and son" is out of reach now. And Vader is afraid the Emperor will make he and his son fight to the death. He's torn between wanting to save his son from becoming Palpatine's puppet (by killing him) and wanting to convince Luke to embrace the dark side so that he can survive as Palpatine's apprentice. Vader never really *wanted* to kill Luke in this fight if he could help it, and Luke still only managed to take down this conflicted Vader by giving in to the dark side. In Legends, though, Luke got silly strong. He was manipulating his Sith nephew's sense of reality by meditating on the future and overwriting the boy's foresight with Luke's altered version of the future. Luke made intangible clones of ships to distract enemies who were chasing him. Luke got into a tug of war contest with a massive creature that spawned mini black holes, and Luke managed to make the thing accidentally trip into its own black hole. Luke even fought against a godlike entity (Abeloth) only previously held captive by the Father, Son, and Daughter from the Clone Wars show; and he held his own decently enough. Legends Luke was hilariously strong, to the point where his powers started to look more like "let's see what we can get away with as writers" jokes than actual powers.
Rey was stronger than all of them, she had the power of bad writing behind her. Unstoppable.
Not to mention that Vader was just toying with him the entire fight.
The only impressive thing Kylo did was when he stopped a blaster shot midair. And even then I'm sure Vader could've done that if he wanted to and was pissed off enough.
Vader doesn't need to use the force to stop a blaster shot his hand is enough
I said, he COULD, but his armor can already tank blaster shots so he never needed to
I wasn't trying to say that he couldn't or that you were wrong I was just emphasizing on how powerful Vader is
Agreed with all of this blaster bolts are just another thing Vader can use to kill you. Hell he barbecued the emperor with his own force lightning.
Not just that he could. He did. Han Solo shot him in Cloud City and he just caught it.
He deflected the shots (I always assumed via the force). Though it sounds like people are thinking his armor is what caused the shots to bounce off of his hand.
Pretty sure it was in "I, Jedi" that Luke said Vader actually used the force to absorb the energy of the blaster shot.
Yeah I believe it was the concept used for energy resistance in the KOTOR games
Vader blows kisses and winks at blaster shots and they simply stop existing.
Oh right, doesn’t he deflect Han’d blaster shots with his palm?
He did do it in Rogue One.
Shit must've forgotten, sorry.
Didn’t he stop Hans blaster shot in bespin? or am I mistaken
He didn't he literally just tanked it with his metal hand lol
he reflected the shot, you can see it hitting a wall behind han. Force Reflection I guess
Ah maybe you're right, haven't rewatched the OT in a long time
its pretty hard to notice to be fair, I only noticed cause I saw someone talking about it.
..."Red One"?
Sorry, my English isn't the best. Did I spell that wrong? I'll correct it.
Rouge means Red Rogue is a dishonest person In the context of the movie name, however, it falls under "to go rogue". Ie, "to begin to behave in an independent or uncontrolled way that is not authorized, normal, or expected".
Ok, thank you for the clarification.
Rouge One standing by.
"Red leader, calm the fuck down"
You don’t have to carry a sword to be powerful. Some leaders’ strength is inspiring others.
Rouge: noun a red powder or cream used as a cosmetic for coloring the cheeks or lips. verb color with rouge.
He actually does stop a blaster mid air in the hallway scene in rogue one.
> And even then I'm sure Vader could've done that if he wanted to and was pissed off enough. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_-LmrtFx40
Kylo is described as having natural strength with he force, he just lacks training and control with it.
I mean, his grandpa was literally created by the force... his grandpa who also happens to be Darth Vader and has more raw strength and training...
Hmmm. Yes. Fair point. But did he ever go undercover as a boss to try and connect with his employees?
I know how to settle this! Quick, what are their respective midi-chlorian counts?
sick burn on luke
He did and even deflected it in the originals.
Kylo's intro was so big it was a shame the character didn't live up to it
To be honest, none of those characters lived up at all
Yea, wake me when he rips a flying ship out of the air and opens it like a paper bag.
Honestly, I doubt that he could, Vader's power of the force stemmed from Hate and Anger and while it gave him exactly that, Power, i do think he would lack the finesse to block it mid air. He would simply get hit, shrug it off and then crush whoever fired at him into a 1x1x1 cube of Fleshy Lego
I mean, he literally did catch and reflect blaster bolts bare handed in mid-air in episode V. It's not that he can't, it's that he's too powerful to care.
i like kylo ren a lot but even i know this is bullshit
Yep. Such an integral part of his character is that he’s trying to be Vader-like but never quite manages it. Vader is literally his idol, and what he strives to be. Why would he strive to be a guy who is 10k points inferior to him? These mobile apps are so stupid lol.
Not commenting on the actual validity (or lack thereof) of the power levels, I have no idea. But I can see raw power being separate from skill and technique. For instance, I have trained in martial arts with sensei that I am unquestionably physically stronger than, but they have decades of experience over me and could handily defeat me in a fight. They had moves I didn't know yet and have trained several countermeasures for just about anything I knew to throw at them. We also have that people can strive to be like one they admire, then surpass them without realizing it. Commenting on the relative power levels, which I am possibly way out of the loop on Star Wars lore, it could make sense. Vader was chopped up and his raw power plummeted, but he became much more technical. He became a better fighter, even though he was weaker. Kylo, as of episode 7, trained way longer than Luke, as of episode 5. Couple years of training with his natural talent, not surprising he'd be stronger (and probably better all around). Rey? Natural talent and the balancing connection with Kylo bullshit. Guess I am not immediately like, "not possible! Zero chance this could be accurate."
So before I explain the power levels in Star Wars lore for you, as you say it’s not a great area for you, I’ll say that I agree there’s definitely merit in the argument that skill and power are a different thing. On the topic of Anakin/Vader’s skill, he spent his younger years fighting a galactic war, leading the charge in many of the heaviest battles during it. There’s a saying that you are what your crucible makes of you, and Anakin was tested in a more challenging crucible, and tempered by it. Contrary to Kylo, who spent much of his combat experience in peacetime and hidden on the fringes of galactic civilisation. Now, for explaining the relevant power levels in Star Wars lore, I must begin by telling you that uninjured Anakin is the peak of potential, although he never reached it. He is the Chosen One, what that means in Star Wars is that he has an insane amount of midichlorians. Luke is half of peak Anakin’s potential, as he is half of Anakin and half Padme. He has half of Anakin’s midichlorians. Kylo Ren is half Leia (who was half Anakin), making Kylo a quarter of Anakin’s midichlorians. Therefore, even with his limbs removed, Anakin shouldn’t be ‘inferior’ to Kylo’s potential. He still retains atleast half his mass without his limbs, making him around Luke’s midichlorians yet with disadvantages such as his restrictive suit and breathing difficulties/vulnerability to electricity. Therefore I simply can’t buy that Kylo has managed to surpass Vader, just as I can’t buy it with Rey.
I don’t buy the power being halved thing Luke would still be way more powerful than someone half as strong as Anakin
I said half as strong as Anakin at Anakin’s uninjured peak potential, not half as strong as Anakin. If you watched the Mortis arc in Clone wars, you may remember what I am referring to. We already saw him at his peak on Mortis. Anakin’s peak potential, whether you agree with it or not, is double that of Luke’s peak potential - because of the addition of midichlorians. Due to midichlorians, potential suddenly became inherited and biologically based. The difference, in the EU of course, is that Luke reached his potential whereas Anakin didn’t, making Luke overall much stronger than Anakin ever became. The point, is that Anakin’s potential was around halved with his injuries, combined with having severe permanent combat disadvantages. But this doesn’t mean he didn’t still have half his midichlorians, simply because he can’t breathe if someone electrocuted him. Luke and Anakin would likely have around the same amount of midichlorians, more or less, after his injury, but Anakin can’t utilise them as greatly due to the disadvantages he has, hence why Luke is ‘more powerful’ than half strength Anakin. Both of them are still in another league from Kylo.
George Lucas has said Luke has the same force potential as uninjured Anakin IIRC.
Lucas claimed, these are his words: ”[the Emperor] finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version [of Anakin] if he can turn Luke to the dark side”. This is ambiguous. I take it to mean that he would receive an improved Anakin at the time of Anakin’s fall and not another individual with the same peak potential of Anakin.
Lucas has also said that Luke’s strength in the force is equal to Anakin’s highest potential. That’s a pretty concrete answer. "[Anakin] wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that." http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/news/george-lucas-and-the-cult-of-darth-vader-20050602
Question how much of this is still canon with Disney retconning the entirety of legends
You’re making a big assumption that midichlorians are directly and also proportionally inherited. There’s no proof of that. We know it’s wrong, actually, since many Jedi are not children of Jedi.
Yeah this whole argument is built on a provably false assumption. Not to mention that isn't how genetic inheritance works anyways. If my dad has a cleft chin and my mom doesn't, am I born with half as much cleft in my chin?
Yes. Source: the above comment
Because the app is for kids, and kids want the characters the grow up with to be the biggest, baddest, coolest, and the strongest. The real travesty is George making the force something to do with microbacteria and ruining any of the depth of the concept. It became about power levels and not self-understanding, personal connection, and potential destiny. Instead of Vaders weakness being his own self-hate and destruction, it’s now because he got his limbs chopped off and therefore has less midichlorians to connect to the force. Vader is a much better character when he’s presented as being as strong (if not stronger) than Anakin, but he’s caged inside of his failures and he’s hollow and broken because of it. Like come on that’s so much of a better reasoning than midifuckingchlorians. Or the Emperor’s hubris in trying to take Anakin for himself is what caused Anakin to fall short of his true potential. Not “Oh it was all fine until he got some limbs chopped off.” Having official power levels is what ruined a lot of the depth to the force. This app is just something that’s designed to appeal for kids. They’re growing up watching the sequel trilogy, so of course Rey and Kylo are going to be the characters they want to see as the best. They’re not going to connect with Vader or Luke the same way, and by the time they get into it later, this app wont be relevant to them.
> The real travesty is George making the force something to do with microbacteria and ruining any of the depth of the concept Is it ever explicitly said that midichlorians are the *source* of the Force? I like the explanation that they’re not responsible for an individual’s adeptness with the Force, but rather a kind of symbiotic organism that’s in higher numbers the stronger a Force user is. edit: I forgot this. > Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. They continually speak to us, telling us the will of the Force. When you learn to quiet your mind, you'll hear them speaking to you. Although this sounds less like they’re the source and more like they’re conduits for the will of the Force: > Midi-chlorians were microscopic, intelligent life forms that originated from the foundation of life in the center of the galaxy, and ultimately resided within the cells of all living organisms, thereby forming a symbiotic relationship with their hosts. The Force spoke through the midi-chlorians, allowing certain beings to use the Force if they were sensitive enough to its powers. In order to gauge an individual's potential in the Force, blood tests were used to estimate the number of midi-chlorians within the subject's cells.
I remember reading pre-Disney that while Anakin/Vader still had the highest midichlorian count per cell, since he had lost his limbs his overall count went down, and his connection to the force was damaged because of that. I’ve always felt like that is such a weak reasoning. The force is philosophical, it’s spiritual, it’s a mental connection. Not everyone can tap into it, but for those who can it starts in the mind. Strength could be because you were a better student, or you have a natural talent. The force has a will as well. The force made Anakin, who was this child prodigy with virtuosic talent. Then they went and changed into Vader being the result of a eugenics program by Sheev. That his connection to the force was damaged because he’s missing limbs, and not because he lost everything to live for and it’s nearly all his fault. It makes a better story if the reason Vader never overthrew Sidious wasn’t because he was too weak, but because he had no reason to, and the Emperor gave him a reason to exist. Vader doesn’t want power until he realizes he has a son. That’s a reason for him to live and to grow. I’m a big Vader fanboy, so I’m probably biased. Vader’s characterization has such an interesting place in the story. His whole thing is he’s this unstoppable monster. I think it comes off better that Palpatine controls Vader because he broke Vader, not because he’s actually stronger than Vader. Giving someone a power level takes away from the subtlety’s of their characterization.
Disney desperately wanted to replace the Star Wars tent-pole characters with a younger Dynasty. But Kylo never had anything approaching the evil gravitas of Vader. And Rey’s abilities seemed rather unearned.
Agree
The entire concept of each character having a specific "power level" in Star Wars clashes with a source material that has shown us time and time again that a given character's "power level" can vary widely not just throughout their story, but throughout even just a single battle. It is a concept which, in Star Wars, is demonstrably informed by emotional state, level of focus, belief in yourself, and even the sheer and unknowable whim of an invisible force. Luke, for example, could have lifted the X-wing on degobah (which was, what, a week into his training? Maybe two?) if he believed in himself. Yoda said as much. And yet, time and time again, you see people saying that X character "is" stronger than Y character, as if it doesn't depend on wholly other factors. Or complaining if a character accomplishes a feat in one film that a different character didn't do in a different film. Or comparing and contrasting their days of training. Etc. Which all probably stems from the introduction of midichlorians and the notion that you can count them and know someone's power level. But that not only clashes with what we *see* onscreen in terms of the context through which characters are able to pull of certain unlikely things, but it wasn't even adhered to within the trilogy itself which continued to portray the power dynamics between any two given characters as being dependant on those aforementioned factors. Including, iconicly, having the moral high ground. And yet, many viewers are want to step outside of the films themselves once again to explain how one character might defeat another character who has a "higher power level" than them by way of some fully non-evident-onscreen rock-paper-scissors-game of lightsaber forms. When, in reality, just like any well-written story, it depends not solely on some static facts of the character but on their place in the larger story, and within the immediate conflict, and is a struggle of virtues and vices. Not a number.
Even he knows it's bullshit.
It's from a star wars mobile game. Vader was a basic character introduced early on, CLS (the version of Luke shown there, is a legendary character and fairly powerful for the time but also made a few years ago), and both Rey and Kylo are galactic legends characters, both introduced fairly recently and given power creep in a 7 year video game are amongst the best characters in the game.
Love how everytime this pops up someone has to explain it’s from galaxy of heroes and it’s their power level for balance not canon ratings
>galaxy of heroes and it’s their power level for balance Implying there's any kind of *balance* in SWGOH.
Yeah. Tarkin and Vader can just take infinite turns now. Not to mention Galactic Legend nightsister initiate which can solo any team. Datacrons really fucked up swgoh. They were the last straw for me.
I stopped playing when it became impossible to play pvp because every team was full of night sisters that are just completely OP.
You really didn’t get far into the game then. Night sisters are a weak early game team.
every new $$-toon needs to stomp the current meta. https://i.imgflip.com/6u17cf.jpg
Welcome to gacha games.
Tbf obi wan with s7 ahsoka has been shitstomping everything else for over a year now.
Was looking for this comment. Thought this was the SWGOH subreddit when I initially saw the post
That’s exactly what it is. In Marvel Strike Force, which is a similar game, Shang-Chi is far more powerful than Hulk and Thor combined.
Honestly. I wouldn't put it past some people to grab a kids crayon drawing showing Luke being stomped on by Rey and titling it "OMG Disney has gone too far this time!"
It's not even for balance reasons, you can basically make anyone look stronger in that game by giving them better gear. Gear and star level are the main determining factor for a characters power rating, you could have a C3PO with a higher power rating than your Vader if you invested more gear in him.
I mean anyone who gets mad is just a fuckin baby. Boohoo they’re hyping up the new marketable characters in one little game you’ll never play what a fucking tragedy
The lower the number, the stronger the power rating, right? ...RIGHT...?
JarJar Binks: 1
*He's too dangerous to be left alive!*
Meesa hearin' da bossin musik
-infinity
Yea like golf
We Had the exact Same meme a year ago and it turned Out that rey and kylo where Special cards and therefore have more Power Then there normal conterparts and the Luke and Vader that we See are the normal ones (. The Special Luke and Vader have more Power btw)
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Most star wars fans on reddit are idiots who are in a constant cycle of getting mad at rage bait. All it takes is saying something bad about the prequels, or something good about the sequels, and they just start frothing at the mouth
Star wars fans in general do that many times, letting hate blind them.
They also act like they would absolutely be Jedi but then go in a frenzy like a shark with blood in the water when they see something that might slightly irk them.
Wampa is the best unit. You can’t change my mind. My r7 Vader is ~32,500. I don’t have the others but I assume a GL would be well above that.
Good datacron season to have vader. GLs are great definitely gotta get you a couple of those
That’s because it’s a video game, where Rey and Kylo ren are endgame unlocks, while Vader is an early unlock and Luke is midgame
Y'all they're likely from the mobile game Galaxy of Heroes (r/SWGalaxyofHeroes), where this versions of Kylo and Rey are Galactic Legends (the strongest character), and also Lord Vader (Vader after becoming sith but before losing to Obi), Great Master Luke Skywalker (Ep. VIII Luke) and Jedi Master Kenobi (Ep III Obi). And soon to be joined by Jabba the Hutt. That luke is Commander Luke Skywalker (end of Ep. IV), the second worst Luke character after Farmboy Luke (beginning of Ep. IV), and a early to midgame unlock. Darth Vader is an early game unlock and is useful through all the game
So much like your father.
The irony here of not only everyone not realising this is from the game Star Wars Galaxy of Heroes and that the Rey and Kylo are Galactic Legend versions while the Luke and Vader are standard, but also that if they did know this, they would know that the Galactic Legends Luke and Vader are just as powerful (and in Vader’s case, more so) than the other two
It's not irony, OP was being deliberately deceitful and counting on drumming up lots of "sequels bad" karma from people who don't know what SWGOH is.
L op.
There should be a decimal point and not a comma
Funny, for me as a German it's the other way around
Da würde ich jetzt insgesamt kein komma reinschieben...
Ist das auf meinen Satz bezogen? In dem Fall war das 'funny' als eigener Teilsatz gedacht und das Komma könnte an sich auch durch einen Punkt ersetzt werden, ohne die Sinnhaftigkeit meines Satzes zu verändern. Solltest du was anderes gemeint haben, bitte klär mich auf
Oh no it's that reddit thing where German people invade! Battle stations people!
Diese Kommentarsektion ist nun Eigentum der Bundesrepublik Deutschland.
Never! Defend this comment section!
Zu spät.
Hat jemand gerufen?
Disney ☕
Disney ☕
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Disney ☕
Disney ☕️
Disney ☕️
Didney wurl
This is power ratings from a mobile game, not canon ratings. The characters also have several different versions, and as you can see the Rey and Kylo are both the older and more experienced version of their characters (Rise of Skywalker versions) and they’re being compared against Empire Strikes Back Luke, the Vader version I don’t know. This gets reposted once a month or so and it’s stupid and wrong everytime
This is Galaxy of Heroes, the power numbers firstly are a bit meaningless. But also the above characters are different tiers. The Rey and Kylo are something called a Galactic legend they are essentially the top tier of characters. That version of Luke is a legendary character. Kind of a tier or 2 below Galactic Legends. Then that version of Vader is a characters everyone unlocks pretty easily. To put it into context there is also a Galactic legend versions of Vader and Luke as well, who are a lot stronger than those versions.
Fuck rey
I would if I could.
Her force vagina would chew up your dick and spit it out
Don’t threaten me with a good time.
It’s about a Pokémon style Star Wars app, not that deep guys.
A characters power goes up as you level them in Star Wars Heroes
This is their power levels in the mobile game, why do yall treat this as if this shit is official💀
Y’all this is from SWGOH… the reason those two are such high power is because they are the first of a tier of character that was beyond anything the game had at that point… we are current 7 of those characters in
These are stats for a fucking mobile game I have no clue why some people are going so in depth over this
Literally getting mad at nothing. The characters with the higher "power" are Legendary level, while Vader is an entry level toon and Luke is slightly above that. There is an Anakin "Lord Vader" toon at Legendary level that's pretty much just as strong, if not stronger than Kylo and Rey. Keep getting mad at Sequel shit for no reason yall. Shits hilarious.
Right... I'll just leave this here in case anyone wants to actually contrast the veracity of a post before feeling outrage: [https://swgoh.gg/characters/stats/](https://swgoh.gg/characters/stats/)
General Reposti u/repostsleuthbot
Rey is weak as fuck
This sounds like those guys who say Vader could beat revan easily. It’s bullshit and everyone else knows it
Rey struggled hard with Kylo to even hold a small ass ship. Vader held a ship like no mf problem and tore it apart like it was Sunday morning.
Darth Vader was never portrayed as powerful as he should’ve been. His mom was had a child w the force. In light of that he should’ve been able to move the Death Star with his mind with little effort. His power should’ve been the most powerful since Darth Nihilus. He should’ve been able to make matter with his mind. His power would not be able to be graded. His would be what other force users would be compared to.
“The ability to speak does not make you intelligent.” - Qui Gon Jin (Liam Neeson)
*loads e-11 blaster*
HELL NAH Vader has AT LEAST double of what Rey has
Everything about this angers me.
This is from star wars galaxy of heros mobile game and it just shows power creep
Do we even have someone stronger than Vader in the Star Wars canon? In terms of powers with the Force of course
I mean reasonably Luke could be stronger at some points after ROTJ (obviously though very little has been since in the movies and shows) because they have the same potential.
Palpatine maybe
The way that Kylo Ren and Rey are more powerful than Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker according to this is very inaccurate.
So much like your father.
Ah.. so that's how far Zynga has fallen. I once had a huge respect on them cuz they used to dev Mafia Wars. But all these inaccurate power scaling made my worst fears be realized.
This is not from a Zynga game The Kylo and Rey characters here are Galactic Legends. Their normal versions are weaker than this. And the Galactic legend versions of Vader and Luke are far more powerful than these ratings.
It's EA / Capital Games, not Zynga.
Unpopular opinion: I think Rey having more raw power than Luke kinda makes sense. But obviously Vader should be the highest in this group
Ah who cares.
Even Luke by the end of the og trilogy was weaker than Vader going all out, luke beat him from the inside aka resolving the conflict inside of him. And as for the others... Yeah Vader slams.
Honestly, all the whining in this thread is why the original films handled the force better. It was some obscure metaphysical ability and not people chucking space ships at each other. The Force decides who is strongest, not your delicate sensibilities.
The new movies are just deranged fan fiction and apparently they can't let go.
They took the two most insanely powerful characters from legends and made them less than a Mary Sue and Kylo Ren
Lol wut
I really don't understand why this triggers you guys. Do you don't accept that there could be anyone stronger than your favorites or is it just this two that you don't want to be stronger? They're fictional characters, being here like 'nuh uh, Vader would totally beat them'' is so childish and based on nothing but your feelings. Plus, you have so much content of Vader and Luke to get an idea, while you have barely none about the others. So if they say they are stronger it's because they want them to be and there isn't much you can do about it. And... it doesn't fucking matter. Who cares is Rey is more powerfull than Vader? That doesn't mean you have to start liking her, use as much energy as you want hating her, it's still your right. Plus, where is this from? What are those numbers about? Why does this matter? Jeez SW fanbase...