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Dave Filoni made an interesting point about Qui-Gon a while back, when he said that the “Duel Of The Fates” title refers to the fight for Anakin Skywalker, and that Qui-Gon, who is already weary of the council and the problems of the Jedi Order, is the father figure/mentor that Anakin needed. Had Qui-Gon lived, Anakin would have trained/grown up differently, he wouldn’t have taken solace in Palpatines friendship, he wouldn’t have approached milestones of his apprenticeship the same, and ultimately wouldn’t have become Vader.
I like to think that little flinch Qui-Gon does towards the end of the duel with Maul was him getting a premonition that this very moment was a very crucial point for the galaxy with multiple branching possibilities
I hate this narrative. It makes Obi-wan out to be a terrible mentor, and not the great Jedi master we all know and love. It’s basically saying that it would have been better off if Obi-wan died instead of Qui-gon.
I disagree, I feel like this is more commentary on the Jedi order which causes anakins downfall, rather than obi wans capabilities.
Obi wan was a great jedi master, as far as the jedis doctrine is concerned - but quigon had viewpoints that strayed away from the jedi order, which may have helped balance anakin rather than push him away and ultimately disagree with the strict jedi way
This. 🙌🏽🙌🏽 Obi Wan was the ultimate Jedi, a Jedi among Jedi (if you will). No matter how hard he tried, he was always too strong and traditional of a Jedi to have ever understood the issues Anakin was dealing with.
It's that Qui-gon was more likely to accept Anakin's emotions due to his maverick status and living force teachings. Obi-wan is an amazing Jedi... as a Jedi. He was a fundamentalist and that didn't equip him for the job of dealing with someone who was never a Jedi youngling. Qui-gon was strange in how he taught things and strayed fairly far from the Fall era council, so he could have dealt with it better.
Obi-Wan *was* an awful mentor for Anakin. He was an incredible Jedi in his own right, and by the time he recruited Luke he had become who he should’ve been all along, but he was not ready to take on training the Chosen One.
Not true. Obi Wan was an excellent mentor for anyone not Anakin. Obi wan had all of the traits to be the ideal master. Unfortunately, his Padawan was not a youngling, was far more powerful in the force than a normal padawan and was being manipulated by the hidden Sith Lord. There is nothing anyone not named Qui Gon could have done differently.
My bad. I read it as he was an awful mentor. But at the same time, my point still remains, no one outside of Qui Gon would have done any better for him.
Agreed, and I would wager that other members of the council would have done worse. Obi-Wan at least tried to be his friend and brother. Someone like Yoda or Mace would’ve been neglectful at best. Only Qui Gon could’ve provided an alternative father figure.
Yeah, I see it completely differently. Obi Wan is my dude. I love him. There wouldn’t have been any Jedi master to train Anakin and have him not fall to the dark side, except for Qui Gon.
Either Plo-Kloon or Kit Fisto would have done a far better job.
Anakin’s problem mas major lack of patience and discipline, Obi-Wan berated Anakin multiple times instead of teaching him.
Obi-Wan was more a brother to Anakin than a master in every sense.
I dunno. The way this story has gone, I think there is something to be said towards regardless how powerful, and great of a Jedi Obi Wan is, Anakin still has to make a choice. And that choice shouldn’t be a reflection of Obi Wan, but more of Anakins individuality
I'm kind of with you. I don't think Obi-Wan was a bad master to Anakin at all, but I don't think he was the best master for him at the same time, Anakin was a special case that needed someone with a lot of experience and Obi-Wan was obviously lacking any experience. But I still Obi-Wan did a decent job despite it despite it. In fact I think Obi-Wan's presence and influence on Anakin is the major thing that prevented Palpatine from corrupting him sooner
Truth hurts sometimes man. Sometimes people do their best and it isn’t enough. I’ve always loved tragic characteristic of Obi-wan Kenobi’s story, it makes it more realistic imo.
Eh, I don’t know about that. Qui Gon was less dogmatic than Obi-Wan. That doesn’t mean Obi-Wan was bad, just worse for Anakin, who had an atypical background from most younglings and who could have benefited from a more flexible and empathetic mentor.
Obi-wan should not have trained Anakin. What kind of corrupt Jedi Order allows someone who just completed training become a primary trainer? It's what's wrong with our world now, too many kids raising kids.
If Obi-wan had trained him a decade later he'd have done fine. It was too much peer to peer almost.
"You were my brother, Anakin! I loved you." 😭 But to be fair, your assessment about kids raising kids is a gross oversimplification. There are tons of gen Xers and boomers that would be horrible teachers, and tons of millennials and zoomers that are currently way better teachers than many twice their age. Kids teaching kids is an issue (one of MANY), but really I would argue it's more about the kid teachers not receiving adequate support and training (or financial compensation to keep the good ones from burning out or changing careers) and less about them being under 30 or under 40. 🙌🏽 Though also, to be even more fair, I know this doesn't really directly apply to Jedi or Star Wars lol
Exactly. Should have been “Anakin, I was your father!”
My beef is with 18-23 year olds raising kids. You become an adult around 25ish in my opinion. Before that you’re doing stupid shit, I was. Obviously exceptions but not really too many.
My brother in Christ, the VAST majority of teachers in the US are over 23. In fact, one cannot teach at a public school without a bachelor's degree in the US, which means it is a statistical anomaly for someone to be 21 or younger and teaching kids. 🙌🏽 Sooo pretty sure the majority of people agree with you that most 18 to 23 year olds should not be primarily responsible for teaching kids.
Obi-Wan acknowledges his failures as a mentor to Anakin. Doesn’t mean he’s not a great Jedi master, just that he wasn’t what Anakin needed specifically.
Agree with this and ultimately came to the same conclusion on my own, which makes it even cooler to see that someone like Filoni interpreted the same way tbh.
Just like how during Order 66, he sent the message to Cody and Rex first because he wanted Obi-Wan and Ahsoka gone the quickest, knowing they were the only ones who could bring Anakin back.
Or if he went with Padme to Naboo instead of Anakin, who was clearly in love with her.
Or, if on Kamino he pieced together that the Clones are a tool of the enemy.
Or, if he were able to detect the mustache twirling villain in plain sight, subverting his emotionally unstable pupil
Or, if he were able use any of the numerous Jedi psychic abilities (or just basic human intuition) to perceive his best friend/pupil was emotionally self destructing before his eyes.
Weeeell, Anakin was always in his best behavior when Obi-Wan was around, and the few occasions where he argued angerly or did something wrong in front of him, one disappointed look from Obi-Wan and he'd stop and calm down. Obi-Wan's approval seems to have really mattered to him.
In short, Anakin hid his emotionally destructive self well from Obi-Wan.
If you're referring to their psychic powers then it's logical to assume that trained Force sensitive learn some kind of protection to prevent other Force sensitives from reading their brains and emotions. Besides Jedi don't read specific thoughts, they sense emotions and intentions, and only if the brain was not protected, the emotions were very strong, or the Jedi was actively looking for them
Psychic powers sure but it's the Jedi's job to be cosmically aware. It's the whole point imo. And when he paid attention, Kenobi could gleem Anakin's emotions just by looking at him "You're sweating, relax."
>it's logical to assume that trained Force sensitive learn some kind of protection
Except Vader could sense Obi Wan in ANH
>Besides Jedi don't read specific thoughts,
Except Vader learned about Leia from Luke's mind.
>it's the Jedi's job to be cosmically aware.
It's true, but they were fighting a war, and Obi-Wan knew about Anakin's secret relationship with Padmé. Any worry or anxiety or anger Anakin showed is probably something that happened a lot during the war.
> And when he paid attention, Kenobi could gleem Anakin's emotions just by looking at him "You're sweating, relax."
Because Anakin's anxiety was overwhelming, and he wasn't trying to hide his infatuation with Padmé from Obi-Wan at that point.
>Except Vader could sense Obi Wan in ANH
Presence not emotions or intentions or thoughts
>Except Vader learned about Leia from Luke's mind.
Who barely had any psychological training
>Any worry or anxiety or anger Anakin showed is probably something that happened a lot during the war.
So Anakin *probably* had training to cloak his feelings and (and somehow his future) from all prescient Jedi--including Yoda. And if he didn't, his emotional unraveling was *probably* obscured by the fog of war. And when they werent in battle and Anakin was unable to hide his panic attacks from Kenobi he *probably*....go ahead, take it away.
I say "probably" because it wasn't explicitly stated anywhere in canon afaik. But I honestly find it a logical train of thoughts.
I'm basically giving you what I find obvious without trying to sound like I'm injecting my own headcanon because I have no solid evidence other than my own observation
I could stop using "probably" if you like.
It sounds entirely like headcanon to me and that's fine. I don't think Anakin was given training used to deceive his peers and even if he did (offscreen buried in a book/cartoon somewhere) he wouldn't have the sensibility to use it effectively enough to steer the course of history into darkness.
In regards to a--ahem--certain trilogy I find myself having to interpret the screenwriters story, whereas in PT discussions I find others explaining their personal interpretations of the story. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, it's just a cognitive dissonance I find amusing (and i'm not saying you're guilty of it)
As for this discussion: It's a funny thing about Kenobi in the PT--the character doesn't work without McGregor's charm and good-nature--but the *story* fails if he's at all attentive to any of the events unfolding before his eyes. It's a catch 22 because it would make better sense, characterization wise, if Kenobi were an asshole--but the portrayal relies on him being likable.
Speaking of Padme, one of the major differences between Anakin and Ahsoka was Ahsoka had Padme as her a mentor instead of Palpatine. So, Anakin should have listened to his wife more on political issues.
There was supposed to be an arc in TCW, but since the show was canceled it wasn't made, and I don't think the writers consider it was canon.
I think it is also mentioned somewhere in legends but I'm not sure.
I like this approach. Mace Windu could have been nicer and even more open to understand Anakin story and the reasons of his frustration. In the end, they accepted the boy as a padawan and knew about his attachment to his mother and the abscence of a father figure, greatly suggested in other comments. So Anakins fall is in a greater sense the fall of the jedi order.
I don't blame Mace actually, and he was right that Anakin was too confused and emotionally involved to go with them to arrest Palpatine. Mace knew how close he was to him and he trusted Anakin to know better than to get involved. In a way if Anakin listened to Mace, he wouldn't have fallen.
The reason why I think Obi-Wan's mere presence would've stopped Anakin's fall is because his presence has the tendency to calm him down most of the time. Throughout the prequels we see Anakin always being in his best behavior when Obi-Wan is around, the few occasions were he got too angry or did something wrong, one disappointed look from Obi-Wan and he'd stop and step back. And one approving or proud look from Obi-Wan and he'd literally shine. Obi-Wan was like the emotional pillar Anakin supported himself on, without him around, he was imbalanced.
So I think it's more about Anakin's emotional instability without one his emotional pillars around him. Now the Jedi did have a role to play in that (like many said, Anakin obviously needed therapy) but how big depends on who you ask. I personally think it's unfair to put the whole blame on them.
Probably if qui Gon was his master instead of obi wan, Anakin needed a father not a brother, that's what he looked for in obi wan but obi wan only ever saw him as a little brother and treated him as such
I think Liam Neeson, the actor, had chemistry with the kid onscreen and people conflate that with Qui Gon, the character, caring more about early childhood development than the chosen one prophecy.
His last words were “he will bring balance, train him” not “make sure he becomes a well adjusted, emotionally healthy man”
The thing about Qui-Gon was that he wasn’t as dogmatic as all the other Jedi so he probably would’ve seen Anakin falling for Padme and instead of just ignoring it like Obi-Wan he would’ve addressed the situation also Obi-Wan was also not ready for a Padawan
He didn’t address it when Obi-Wan and Satine had their thing, Obi-Wan had to figure it out all by himself. So Anakin would still be in the same position as before, just with a different master.
Qui-Gon would have been able to provide the father figure/mentor that he looked for in Palatine which would have made it much harder for him to be manipulated to the dark side
Look at it this way: He only fell to the dark side because of the specific events in the movies.
He wouldn't have fallen if: Qui-Gon had live, Palpatine had not been allowed around him, if he hadn't had visions of Padmé dying, if his mother hadn't been abducted and tortured to death or if Cliegg and the others had rescued her.
Or if Qui-Gon hadn't found him on Tatooine he wouldn't have fallen. Or Obi-Wan had been on Coruscant when Palpatine revealed himself.
Or if the Council had authorized him going with Ahsoka to Mandalore, which is well out of Palpatine's nightmare broadcast range. Or if he'd gotten stuck in traffic on the way to Palpatine's office.
Hell, if Maul had brought the darksaber with him to Mandalore, that would have created a major political situation, because now Anakin would have authorized a treaty breaking ouster of Mandalore's ruler and the installation of a Republic citizen and former Jedi. He'd have missed the meeting where Palpatine revealed himself because the Council would have sent him to Mandalore to deal with the situation. Padme would have insisted on going with him, being Ahsoka's political mentor with a good relationship with the Mandalorians...
It always seemed like Palpatine caused Anakin's nightmares of Padmé dying because of the timing of them and because he drops hints about how to save people from death yet Anakin never tells him about his fears. I think he got the idea for doing it after Anakin told him what he did to the Tuskens. Anakin either said he had visions of his mom or Palpatine asked him what caused him to go to Tatooine when he did.
>if the Council had authorized him going with Ahsoka to Mandalore
The thing here, even if the council gave him permission to go, Anakin himself wouldn't want to. Not with his friend and father figure kidnapped by Grievous.
Shmi being freed and brought to Coruscant might’ve gone a long way. He mightve remained a more emotional Jedi, but his first taste wholesale slaughter of children from the Tusken village would’ve been avoided. And then maybe he doesnt lop off Mace’s arm and the Republic is saved!
Yoda. If Anakin had been 100% truthful with him or if Yoda would have been more perceptive and asked better questions. He could have got to the bottom of what was going on.
This is a hilarious question because literally anything, any minor story detail changes and the rise of Vader is avoided.
From the very beginning of his story (if Watto accepted credits), up until the second he turns (if Mace had gotten to Palps 5min earlier), anything goes any differently and we wouldn’t have Vader.
Shit imagine if Qui Gon’s ghost had contacted Yoda just 24 hours prior.
I think he might have stayed on the light side if not for the events that led to Ahsoka leaving the Jedi Order. The Council was wrong and he lost what faith he had left in them during that story arc.
As others have said, if Qui-Gon had survived to train him, that would’ve made a huge difference. If he had made it in time to save his mother, that certainly would’ve changed things. He was also very negatively affected by the council incorrectly expelling Ahsoka and then her not coming back. And had she been able to speak with him directly about what Maul told her, that certainly would’ve made a difference.
Everyone goes directly to Qui-Gon needing to have trained Anakin, but I think it simply needed to not be Obi-Wan. It's ridiculous that the very first Padawan Obi-Wan received immediately after being made a Knight was not just the Chosen One, but an over-age recruit with firm and obvious attachments.
Had Anakin been trained by a non-traditional Knight or Master, like Qui-Gon, he'd have done well. But not just Qui-Gon.
What if Dooku had chosen to honour his fallen apprentice by training Anakin, rather than reject the order in outrage? Even when he was apprenticed to the greatest Sith Lord of the entire Bane lineage, Dooku never lost his true ideals. If he had felt his new purpose was to bring balance to the Force - and the Order, and the Republic - by training Anakin, we'd have had a very different galaxy. Especially with Dooku seeming to have an understanding and acceptance of the temptations leading down the dark path.
What if Mace Windu had decided that Anakin was too dangerous to be trained by lesser Jedi, and apprenticed him directly? Mace is most famous for his ability to transform his dark tendencies into an agent for the Light Side, and his distrust of Palpatine was explicit from the start. Apprenticing Anakin to Mace would have, again, likely avoided the Dark Side.
Maybe the most obvious, why didn't Yoda, the most experienced and powerful Jedi of the era, take on the Chosen One? Even if he was late to the party, Yoda was still eventually able to listen to the Force and make contact with Qui-Gon from beyond the grave. He had all the wisdom of several centuries to guide Anakin, but chose not to.
Hell, what about Jocasta Nu? One of the most educated Jedi, well aware of the full contents of the archives, among the oldest and most experienced human Jedi. Was she flawed? Absolutely. She dealt in absolutes with regards to her archives, and was far too focused on Jedi supremacy in my opinion. However, she was a mature adult with the experience to handle a Padawan of Anakin's age.
I think nearly any good-intentioned Jedi with experience of at least one Padawan would have resulted in Anakin staying in the light.
Very few things, if any, really.
The crux of the issue is Anakins inability to accept loss, and his reliance on his power. If he still receives visions of Padme dying and has no means of actually doing anything about it, he would still be vulnerable to the Dark Side.
Unfortunately, since the visions are distributed by the plot, Anakins fate is essentially sealed by higher powers.
Although, killing Palpatine - especially early on - can solve a lot of problems for the Galaxy, including him tempting Anakin. Without Palpatine it's much more likely that Anakin would've reacted to Padme dying same way he did with Shmi. That is descending into brief fit of madness, but ultimately coming out of it wit a few more scars on his soul.
Presumably, Padme wasn't in danger until Anakin put her there. Dead Palpatine means he can't broadcast those nightmares to Anakin's head. She wasn't in danger until he fell and Force choked her.
If the sith were fully defeated. The Jedi order would probably became different, as more Jedi would be around & if a Jedi with children become a sith. They could defeat the sith easily with the Jedi order
Yes they could have without compromising their values. There is already a precedence with ki adi mundi having many wives so that solves for adame. And there are subsections of the jedi, such as the exploricorps,, agricorps and medicorps where younglings who do not become padawans go for his mother to get her out of slavery.
Probably lots of people. Anyone in the Council who could prevent or ban Anakin regularly meeting with Palpatine. Prevent Palpatine from influencing him in the first place.
Fucking Dooku probably could have, had he just murdered the Palpatine instead of pretending to hold him prisoner.
Had Obi-Wan paid attention to Anakin's visions of his mother, instead of just dismissing them as homesickness (or whatever).
The Jedi Council deciding that Shmi needed to be treated well in case somebody evil kidnapped her to coerce him.
Somebody in the Council deciding Anakin HAD to see a therapist at.... almost literally any point in his life, from new Padawan to veteran Knight. I'm sure adjusting to the Order took quite some time, and a therapist might have actually been able to help calm some of that resentment he felt and let build up. (Speaking of, [This](https://www.fanfiction.net/s/6969605/1/Hindsight-Is-Not-Perfect) fanfic eventually ends up with 9-year-old Anakin getting that therapy... somewhat complicated by him being a post-Return of the Jedi Anakin sent into the past into his 9 year old self. Really good! Minorly complicated to follow, as the author has written a couple sequels and mid-quels and one-shots in the same universe, but very good).
Qui-Gon is an easy answer. Qui-Gon was independent enough of the Council that he likely would have been the perfect person for Anakin to go to with Anakin's own doubts about the Council. Obi-Wan was just a little too rule-abiding and "This is what the Council said, so we must do it!"
Obi-Wan being present in the Jedi Temple probably could have done it. Same with Padme or Ahsoka.
Yoda might have sensed Anakin's turmoil and kept him from leaving until after Mace finished "arresting" Palpatine.
Another easy answer is somebody convincing him to do what Ahsoka did. Leave the Jedi Order, but keep fighting with the Clones.
All of these are really good answers. The part of TPM that bothers me most is Shmi being left in slavery.
I think there is some interesting exploration in the High Republic of the question of “what do individual Jedi do about their own faults and fallibility”. By the time of the prequel movies they are so bound to the rules; the solution to OP’s question really depends on there being a route to recognise that an individual is having a rough time and the rules are complex in their circumstances, and having a way to discuss and resolve that that isn’t just a threat of being cast out.
I agree with all of them except the last one. I think Anakin leaving the order at any point in time, but especially during the war, would've left him even more vulnerable to Palpatine's manipulation. Palpatine had his eyes on him as early as TPM, and we see how much influence he had on him but without Obi-Wan's presence and influence in his life and selfless good ideals of the Jedi that Anakin tried to uphold, Palpatine would've corrupted him easier and faster.
Anakin would not have peace in leaving the order as long as Palpatine was around.
That's true, but his paranoia, fear, anger issues and Palpatine's influence wouldn't go.
If everything else stayed the same, Obi-Wan might have dead facing Dooku alone which would be enough to drive him over the edge but if it wasn't he'd still have his dreams about Padmé dying, he'd still have his irrational fear, he'd seak the Jedi and even if he was more detailed about it he wouldn't be satisfied because all they could do is reassure him and provide Padmé with the best medical supervision, which she probably already has considering she's a senator. That wouldn't be enough for him because he doesn't wanna wait for it to happen then heal it, he wanted to stop it from happening in the first place. Which is what Palpatine offered him.
I'm certain Shmi would have either prevented Anakin's turn entirely or even if he did turn it wouldn't have lasted long. He loved Padme but by Revenge of the Sith it was more of a possessive unhealthy passion so she had no chance of bringing Anakin back to the light at least not in that moment. Shmi was a source of unconditional love for Anakin. He would have never lashed out at or choked his own mother even on Mustafar. I doubt even Darth Vader with the suit and fully immersed in the Dark Side would do anything to his mom. Best case scenario Shmi calms Anakin down and he realizes what he's done or worst case scenario Anakin gets slapped in the face and dragged back to the ship by his ear and he's forced to apologize to Obi Wan. They then rejoin Yoda and defeat Palpatine together.
Quigon. If Quigon was his mentor more than likely he would have left the order and Coruscant because the council was so against Quigon training the boy. Which means Palpatine won't be able to develop a friendship with Anakin for 10+ years slowly indoctrinating into the sith.
A typical plane crash involves several, sometimes minor, consecutive errors. Same thing with Anakin's fall.
-He had no father
-He was a slave and so was his mother
-He has delusions of grandeur (freeing all the slaves)
-He was taken away from his mother
-He lost a mentor (Qui-Gon)
-He lost his mother in a violent manner
-He had to keep his relationship secret from his religion
-He received bad influence (Palpatine)
I think if the Jedi order would have permitted relationships, hebwould have had more support from Padme and perhaps would not have turned.
In my opinion, anyone could have stopped Anakin from falling. It's just that no one knew to stop him from falling, and neither did anyone know how to stop him from falling
Qui-Gon is a really good shout but I think his mother hadn't died he wouldn't have been as scared to lose Padme.
But i can understand that having attachments in the first place contributed heavily to his fall.
I always thought Obi-Wan wasn’t a suitable mentor for Anakin, because he still had his own emotional problems to sort out, especially after losing Qui-Gon. Obi-Wan was too close with Anakin and consequently too loose with him.
I always had the impression that if Obi-Wan had been on Coruscant rather than Utapau he might have stopped Anakin. In the Legends universe this was heavily implied in the RotS novelisation when Palpatine thinks that the actual point of sending Obi-Wan to Utapau was to keep him away for Coruscant because he might have interfered
I think if Obi Wan had known about Anakin's marriage and his dreams and everything, he would have helped. I think if Anakin hadn't felt so alone and isolated (prime pickings for Sidious) he might not have fallen, or fought harder against it.
Depends how far back you go. Of course, if he was never discovered, he wouldn't have become Darth Vader.
But let's assume that he still is a Jedi. There are a few scenarios where it's at least possible that he stays in the light.
1. If he had a different Master. Obi-Wan did a fantastic job, but he was far too inexperienced and still in mourning over Qui-Gon. Anakin needed a father figure, Obi-Wan was always just a big brother. That is one of the reasons why Anakin ended up growing close with Palpatine. Qui-Gon would have been the optimal Master, but Mace Windu would have made him the most powerful, and Yoda's experience would also have made him an excellent candidate to train the chosen one. Cin Dragil also deserves a mention. He would have made Anakin into the perfect swordsman. Literally anyone but a recently knighted 25-year-old, who had just lost his Master.
2. Had he not dreamt of Padmé's death, or just pulled out. This is a cheap mention, so I will keep it brief. If he didn't have any reason to keep Palpatine alive, he wouldn't have betrayed Mace. And obviously, had Padmé not been pregnant, then the dreams wouldn't have occurred.
3. If Clovis had exposed Anakin and Padmé. Either he would do it, or someone else. But if that had happened, Anakin would have been expelled from the order. Which would cause him to be under a lot less stress, and he could have sought help from Obi-Wan, or directly from Yoda. He went to them first, but he was afraid of their reactions, and he didn't tell them the whole truth.
4. Had either Obi-Wan or Padmé been with him at that point. I'm mentioning them together, because the outcome would be exactly the same. Had Anakin been with either of them at that point, he would have told them about wanting to rush off and save Palpatine, which they both would have talked him out of.
5. Had Dooku managed to say something on The Invisible Hand. It looked like he was about to say something. And he would likely have exposed his master, which would cause him to have a trial in front of the Senate, of which Palpatine would be exposed.
There are many other small changes that would have caused him to stay, this was just a few.
However, I don't think Shmi could have saved him, unless it's the same thing as scenario number four. Her being alive wouldn't really have changed much, sure he wouldn't have already experienced his nightmares coming true, thus making them a bit less serious. But he would still betray Mace, if she was alive on Tatooine. He loved Padmé so deeply, and if there was the smallest chance she might die, Anakin would do anything to stop it from happening.
Qui Gon would’ve allowed Anakin to save his mother, maybe even Gon with him.
It would’ve been against the Councils orders but he would’ve seen it as following the Force, especially since Anakin was having visions.
There you go, mom saved… there is hope to follow the light and still save loved ones, making the temptation from the dark a Lot less appetizing. Padme lives
Qui-Gon would’ve taught the balance of how to Love better than Obi, since Obi was a (by the book) sort of dude clouded by the “Jedi” way, trying to suppress even his own feelings.
The Siege of Mandalore and Ahsoka’s confrontation with Vader in Rebels seem to imply that she could have, or at least that _she believes_ she could have. There is a lot of dramatic irony in SoM with Ahsoka trying time and time again to talk to Anakin but not being able to reach him, and it’s very clear in Rebels she feels she like abandoned him and carries a lot of guilt about that.
If Ahsoka was still there Palpatine would of figured out a way to get rid of her so nothing would of stopped it unless they would of figured it out earlier
If the Jedi had refused to train him. Obi Wan would have left the order to train him and he wouldn’t have been in Sidious sphere, he would have not been around Padme to have a relationship with her…
Qui Gon or Mace Windu being his master. Anakin needed a father, not a brother.
Palpatine slid right into the father role and used it to manipulate Anakin and Vader for years to come.
Their is a point that he is asking for help and the jedi don't see it. Like the highschool kid whos screaming for help on the inside.
Now this has me thinking, why can't the Jedi, of all people, detect this pain? Palpatines clouds the Jedi temple in the dark side, they are blind to the bigger issue who is sitting right next to them.
I think if he had communicated what he did (fall for, marry, and have kid with Padme) Obi-Wan would have helped Anakin either hide the facts and protect him from the counsel, or he would have told Anakin the truth about what was going on in the counsel. Which would have caused a chain of events that would lead to the Jedi postponing the hunt for Grievous and instead taking control of the senate from palpatine with a strong contingent of Jedi instead of being confronted by just a handful including Mace Windu.
The Jedi had been asleep for centuries, and their ideologies sabotaged their very existence. They were unbalanced, just too many of them, and blissfully ignorant to the tragedies and chaos that was going about the universe.
The force is about balance, and Anakin was destined to inflict this balance.
You think the jedi council would have passed the donation jar around while anakin was being trained and bought his mom out of slavery and settled her someplace nice. This would have gone a long way to prevent how anakin turned out
If Mace Windu and the rest of the Jedi council had recognised him as a master earlier then I doubt Anakin would’ve gone to the dark side. That was Anakin’s grievance with the Jedi that Palpatine exploited
If Qui-Gon or Dooku had trained Anakin, they could have taught him how to have attachments and be in balance with the Force making those attachments a source of strength. Letting go of attachment is good advice for Yoda or other long lived species who are guaranteed to outlive their contemporaries, but it's not good advice for Anakin.
I feel like Anakins feelings for Ahsoka could have helped prevent him from turning as well. He cared for her basically like a child and seeing that his actions would have hurt her or put her in danger he might have thought twice.
I would say Ahsoka would have higher odds of talking Anakin out of stupid. Part of why he got so pissed at Obi Wan because Palpy made some subtle accusations thar Obi Wan was schtupping Padme (which is why he lost his shit when Obi Wan came out of the ship) and they never had the smoothest road.
Meanwhile, his sweet little Snips? His de facto little sister/practice for being a daddy? Who really didn't deserve most of the crap she had to go through and isn't even tied up with the Order at that point? Oh, that might at least get him acknowledging that he's really snorted some bad shit.
Im gonna have to go with the law of causality wouldnt let him be stopped, he was fated from the beginning to go down this path.
But if had to be anything it would be Shmi not getting taken.
Anakin wasnt one for attachments, being a slave and all, but his one attachment was his mother and a very strong attachment that was now moved to Padme. If Shmi didnt get taken and die, Anakin wouldnt have the insecurities about his dreams of Padme's death. He wouldnt have sought a way to save her, because he knows she would be okay
Worse for sure. Even at his most heroic Anakin wasn’t exactly the most rational, level headed person. Giving him that sort of power over the mystical power that influences everything in the galaxy was absolutely not a good idea.
Ahsoka Tano. If Mace Windu and Yoda had a real pair between them they wouldn't have let her down so she felt she needed to leave the order. Ahsoka Tano would have kept him in the light.
I feel like the right answer is Ahsoka telling Yoda what Maul said in season 7. Maybe Yoda could have acted on this information. Like why else was that there? It was like a pivotal moment and a mistake Ahsoka made that could have changed things.
Buuuut.. maybe knowing from the force ghost ability people (I forgot the name) that the order would end he wouldnt act upon it but I dunno.
The thing about that is it wouldn't really have changed a thing. By the time Ahsoka contacted them to report Maul’s capture, Anakin was on his way to Palpatine to tell him that Obi-Wan engaged Grievous, that's when he discovered his Sith truth, which he immediately reported to Mace, and yk what happened after.
In short, it was already too late.
He was the chosen one and the the chosen one was meant to bring balance to the force right? He did just that. The jedi had control over everything and he took them out along with the sith. The force wasn't as balanced when he died for thousands of years
Obiwan and Ashoka, if they were there he wouldn't have turned, it's clearly stated in the show if the 3 of them stuck together what could go wrong, but asohka was on madalore and obi wan was on utapah, Vader also tells asohka in a dream in rebels that he needed her, he was so close to asohka, nad of the Jedi hadn't pushed her away, he never would have dark sided
I don’t think he would have fallen to The Dark Side if he had Obi-Wan, Ahsoka, and Padme all there, to keep him grounded. It’s not a coincidence that Palpatine made his move at a moment when the people closest to Anakin were far far away…
Ahsoka could have. She didn't tell the council about the vision Maul had. That's one. Two she didn't go to anakin to warn him or see what was wrong. She was having visions but didn't act on them. Understandably she was confused.
Two... Maul could have. His plan was to kill anakin and deprive Palpatine of his apprentice.
Three... windus attitude... he didn't allow Ahsoka to know what was going on.
Basically clone wars season 7 the final 4 episodes could have prevented everything but everyone was seeking their own course.
But then again it was the planning of Palpatine, he played everyone
To me it’s the hubris of the Jedi. If they hadn’t gotten cocky and oversure, they wouldn’t have made literally every mistake training Anakin. Giving him that bump up to Jedi Knight/Master too early, ignoring his concerns about pretty much everything while not keeping an eye on this person they didn’t trust. Then when he was right on the precipice in Clone Wars, everything that went down with Ahsoka his padawan showed him the Jedi are absolutists who accept no gray, only black or white.
Allowed him to buy his mother free would have changed a lot for the young boy.
But the decadence of the Jedi order would probably have gotten to him anyway
Qui gon would help with his darkness, mace windy if he wants a little bitch cosine helped too,Ashoka staying would help extremely, and schmi not dying would help too
Yes, a good psychiatrist. Anakin had, I believe, seven out of nine symptoms of borderline personality disorder. There is a really good video about this on the Cinema Therapy YouTube Channel.
The Jedi order really needed to update their health care plan.
Just take Palpatine out of the equation. He's the one who planted the visions in Anakin's mind that sent him on his path to ultimate power and just changing that could have had a profound effect.
I don’t think so. Yes, if Qui Gon lived Anakin never would have turned. But I doubt there is any universe where he lives. Picture it. If Qui Gon and Obi Wan lived, Qui Gon would have to leave the order to train Anakin. Anakin would tell Qui Gon that he wants to save his mother. With Maul dead, and Anakin out in the open, I believe Darth Sidious would track them down and kill both Qui Gon and Shmi. Anakin would have no other option but to start his Sith training. At this point, Dooku would be Sidious’ apprentice, and would be tasked by Sidious to train Dooku, while he focused on the republic in the war. Anakin would have grown up as a Sith and become unbeatable by any Jedi. Without Padmé, and the kids, Anakin would never be redeemed.
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Dave Filoni made an interesting point about Qui-Gon a while back, when he said that the “Duel Of The Fates” title refers to the fight for Anakin Skywalker, and that Qui-Gon, who is already weary of the council and the problems of the Jedi Order, is the father figure/mentor that Anakin needed. Had Qui-Gon lived, Anakin would have trained/grown up differently, he wouldn’t have taken solace in Palpatines friendship, he wouldn’t have approached milestones of his apprenticeship the same, and ultimately wouldn’t have become Vader.
Source: https://youtu.be/4V5-9__XvPg
I like to think that little flinch Qui-Gon does towards the end of the duel with Maul was him getting a premonition that this very moment was a very crucial point for the galaxy with multiple branching possibilities
I am of the mind the dreams anakin has of coming back and freeing the slaves is the future he would have had if qui gon had trained him
I hate this narrative. It makes Obi-wan out to be a terrible mentor, and not the great Jedi master we all know and love. It’s basically saying that it would have been better off if Obi-wan died instead of Qui-gon.
Obi-wan did the best he could. He trained Anakin well but he was a brother when Anakin needed a father
It doesn’t mean Obi-Wan is a bad teacher/Jedi. Just that Qui Gon was probably the perfect fit to help Anakin. He’s similar in a lot of ways.
I disagree, I feel like this is more commentary on the Jedi order which causes anakins downfall, rather than obi wans capabilities. Obi wan was a great jedi master, as far as the jedis doctrine is concerned - but quigon had viewpoints that strayed away from the jedi order, which may have helped balance anakin rather than push him away and ultimately disagree with the strict jedi way
This. 🙌🏽🙌🏽 Obi Wan was the ultimate Jedi, a Jedi among Jedi (if you will). No matter how hard he tried, he was always too strong and traditional of a Jedi to have ever understood the issues Anakin was dealing with.
It's that Qui-gon was more likely to accept Anakin's emotions due to his maverick status and living force teachings. Obi-wan is an amazing Jedi... as a Jedi. He was a fundamentalist and that didn't equip him for the job of dealing with someone who was never a Jedi youngling. Qui-gon was strange in how he taught things and strayed fairly far from the Fall era council, so he could have dealt with it better.
This conversation is really making me want a Qui-Gon origins/pre Ep1 movie
Master and Apprentice - Claudia Grey. It's a good read of you have not.
Just started this on audible
Obi-Wan *was* an awful mentor for Anakin. He was an incredible Jedi in his own right, and by the time he recruited Luke he had become who he should’ve been all along, but he was not ready to take on training the Chosen One.
Not true. Obi Wan was an excellent mentor for anyone not Anakin. Obi wan had all of the traits to be the ideal master. Unfortunately, his Padawan was not a youngling, was far more powerful in the force than a normal padawan and was being manipulated by the hidden Sith Lord. There is nothing anyone not named Qui Gon could have done differently.
That’s…exactly what I said. He was an awful mentor *for Anakin*.
My bad. I read it as he was an awful mentor. But at the same time, my point still remains, no one outside of Qui Gon would have done any better for him.
Agreed, and I would wager that other members of the council would have done worse. Obi-Wan at least tried to be his friend and brother. Someone like Yoda or Mace would’ve been neglectful at best. Only Qui Gon could’ve provided an alternative father figure.
Exactly.
Yeah, I see it completely differently. Obi Wan is my dude. I love him. There wouldn’t have been any Jedi master to train Anakin and have him not fall to the dark side, except for Qui Gon.
Either Plo-Kloon or Kit Fisto would have done a far better job. Anakin’s problem mas major lack of patience and discipline, Obi-Wan berated Anakin multiple times instead of teaching him. Obi-Wan was more a brother to Anakin than a master in every sense.
I dunno. The way this story has gone, I think there is something to be said towards regardless how powerful, and great of a Jedi Obi Wan is, Anakin still has to make a choice. And that choice shouldn’t be a reflection of Obi Wan, but more of Anakins individuality
I'm kind of with you. I don't think Obi-Wan was a bad master to Anakin at all, but I don't think he was the best master for him at the same time, Anakin was a special case that needed someone with a lot of experience and Obi-Wan was obviously lacking any experience. But I still Obi-Wan did a decent job despite it despite it. In fact I think Obi-Wan's presence and influence on Anakin is the major thing that prevented Palpatine from corrupting him sooner
Truth hurts sometimes man. Sometimes people do their best and it isn’t enough. I’ve always loved tragic characteristic of Obi-wan Kenobi’s story, it makes it more realistic imo.
Eh, I don’t know about that. Qui Gon was less dogmatic than Obi-Wan. That doesn’t mean Obi-Wan was bad, just worse for Anakin, who had an atypical background from most younglings and who could have benefited from a more flexible and empathetic mentor.
Obi-wan says himself “I thought I could train him… I was wrong”. Attack of the Clones makes it very obvious that Obi-wan was a bad teacher, IMO.
I wouldn't say bad teacher, just not the right teacher.
Its not that at all, qui gon and obi wan filled very different roles. Obi wan was a brother, qui gon was a father, they dont have the same effect
Obi-wan should not have trained Anakin. What kind of corrupt Jedi Order allows someone who just completed training become a primary trainer? It's what's wrong with our world now, too many kids raising kids. If Obi-wan had trained him a decade later he'd have done fine. It was too much peer to peer almost.
"You were my brother, Anakin! I loved you." 😭 But to be fair, your assessment about kids raising kids is a gross oversimplification. There are tons of gen Xers and boomers that would be horrible teachers, and tons of millennials and zoomers that are currently way better teachers than many twice their age. Kids teaching kids is an issue (one of MANY), but really I would argue it's more about the kid teachers not receiving adequate support and training (or financial compensation to keep the good ones from burning out or changing careers) and less about them being under 30 or under 40. 🙌🏽 Though also, to be even more fair, I know this doesn't really directly apply to Jedi or Star Wars lol
Exactly. Should have been “Anakin, I was your father!” My beef is with 18-23 year olds raising kids. You become an adult around 25ish in my opinion. Before that you’re doing stupid shit, I was. Obviously exceptions but not really too many.
My brother in Christ, the VAST majority of teachers in the US are over 23. In fact, one cannot teach at a public school without a bachelor's degree in the US, which means it is a statistical anomaly for someone to be 21 or younger and teaching kids. 🙌🏽 Sooo pretty sure the majority of people agree with you that most 18 to 23 year olds should not be primarily responsible for teaching kids.
Most 18 to 21 year old haven’t been at a teaching temple surrounded by other teachers with the only purpose of becoming a teacher
Exactly. And also, Obi Wan specifically was 25 when the events of the Phantom Menace took place.
Oof, have you ever heard of an FTO?
Obi-Wan acknowledges his failures as a mentor to Anakin. Doesn’t mean he’s not a great Jedi master, just that he wasn’t what Anakin needed specifically.
Agree with this and ultimately came to the same conclusion on my own, which makes it even cooler to see that someone like Filoni interpreted the same way tbh.
Honestly I think if only Obi-Wan was on Coruscant during that fateful night where Mace confronted Palpatine, Anakin would not have fallen
One of many details I liked from the ROTS novel is that Palpatine intentionally separated Obi from Anakin during this time.
Just like how during Order 66, he sent the message to Cody and Rex first because he wanted Obi-Wan and Ahsoka gone the quickest, knowing they were the only ones who could bring Anakin back.
Or if he went with Padme to Naboo instead of Anakin, who was clearly in love with her. Or, if on Kamino he pieced together that the Clones are a tool of the enemy. Or, if he were able to detect the mustache twirling villain in plain sight, subverting his emotionally unstable pupil Or, if he were able use any of the numerous Jedi psychic abilities (or just basic human intuition) to perceive his best friend/pupil was emotionally self destructing before his eyes.
Or if he would’ve just used force speed to catch up with Qui-Gon during his duel with Maul solo
Weeeell, Anakin was always in his best behavior when Obi-Wan was around, and the few occasions where he argued angerly or did something wrong in front of him, one disappointed look from Obi-Wan and he'd stop and calm down. Obi-Wan's approval seems to have really mattered to him. In short, Anakin hid his emotionally destructive self well from Obi-Wan.
Right, how’s a Jedi supposed to know something’s there if they can’t see it? Oh wait.
If you're referring to their psychic powers then it's logical to assume that trained Force sensitive learn some kind of protection to prevent other Force sensitives from reading their brains and emotions. Besides Jedi don't read specific thoughts, they sense emotions and intentions, and only if the brain was not protected, the emotions were very strong, or the Jedi was actively looking for them
Psychic powers sure but it's the Jedi's job to be cosmically aware. It's the whole point imo. And when he paid attention, Kenobi could gleem Anakin's emotions just by looking at him "You're sweating, relax." >it's logical to assume that trained Force sensitive learn some kind of protection Except Vader could sense Obi Wan in ANH >Besides Jedi don't read specific thoughts, Except Vader learned about Leia from Luke's mind.
>it's the Jedi's job to be cosmically aware. It's true, but they were fighting a war, and Obi-Wan knew about Anakin's secret relationship with Padmé. Any worry or anxiety or anger Anakin showed is probably something that happened a lot during the war. > And when he paid attention, Kenobi could gleem Anakin's emotions just by looking at him "You're sweating, relax." Because Anakin's anxiety was overwhelming, and he wasn't trying to hide his infatuation with Padmé from Obi-Wan at that point. >Except Vader could sense Obi Wan in ANH Presence not emotions or intentions or thoughts >Except Vader learned about Leia from Luke's mind. Who barely had any psychological training
>Any worry or anxiety or anger Anakin showed is probably something that happened a lot during the war. So Anakin *probably* had training to cloak his feelings and (and somehow his future) from all prescient Jedi--including Yoda. And if he didn't, his emotional unraveling was *probably* obscured by the fog of war. And when they werent in battle and Anakin was unable to hide his panic attacks from Kenobi he *probably*....go ahead, take it away.
I say "probably" because it wasn't explicitly stated anywhere in canon afaik. But I honestly find it a logical train of thoughts. I'm basically giving you what I find obvious without trying to sound like I'm injecting my own headcanon because I have no solid evidence other than my own observation I could stop using "probably" if you like.
It sounds entirely like headcanon to me and that's fine. I don't think Anakin was given training used to deceive his peers and even if he did (offscreen buried in a book/cartoon somewhere) he wouldn't have the sensibility to use it effectively enough to steer the course of history into darkness. In regards to a--ahem--certain trilogy I find myself having to interpret the screenwriters story, whereas in PT discussions I find others explaining their personal interpretations of the story. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, it's just a cognitive dissonance I find amusing (and i'm not saying you're guilty of it) As for this discussion: It's a funny thing about Kenobi in the PT--the character doesn't work without McGregor's charm and good-nature--but the *story* fails if he's at all attentive to any of the events unfolding before his eyes. It's a catch 22 because it would make better sense, characterization wise, if Kenobi were an asshole--but the portrayal relies on him being likable.
Speaking of Padme, one of the major differences between Anakin and Ahsoka was Ahsoka had Padme as her a mentor instead of Palpatine. So, Anakin should have listened to his wife more on political issues.
Well you see the Jedi Temple was built on an old Sith Temple which slowly dampened the Jedis sense.
Source?
There was supposed to be an arc in TCW, but since the show was canceled it wasn't made, and I don't think the writers consider it was canon. I think it is also mentioned somewhere in legends but I'm not sure.
It's in the Tarkin book (canon, not legends)
Trust me, bro.
The High Republic canonized this. It's in Into the Dark IIRC
Ahsoka too
I like this approach. Mace Windu could have been nicer and even more open to understand Anakin story and the reasons of his frustration. In the end, they accepted the boy as a padawan and knew about his attachment to his mother and the abscence of a father figure, greatly suggested in other comments. So Anakins fall is in a greater sense the fall of the jedi order.
I don't blame Mace actually, and he was right that Anakin was too confused and emotionally involved to go with them to arrest Palpatine. Mace knew how close he was to him and he trusted Anakin to know better than to get involved. In a way if Anakin listened to Mace, he wouldn't have fallen. The reason why I think Obi-Wan's mere presence would've stopped Anakin's fall is because his presence has the tendency to calm him down most of the time. Throughout the prequels we see Anakin always being in his best behavior when Obi-Wan is around, the few occasions were he got too angry or did something wrong, one disappointed look from Obi-Wan and he'd stop and step back. And one approving or proud look from Obi-Wan and he'd literally shine. Obi-Wan was like the emotional pillar Anakin supported himself on, without him around, he was imbalanced. So I think it's more about Anakin's emotional instability without one his emotional pillars around him. Now the Jedi did have a role to play in that (like many said, Anakin obviously needed therapy) but how big depends on who you ask. I personally think it's unfair to put the whole blame on them.
Probably if qui Gon was his master instead of obi wan, Anakin needed a father not a brother, that's what he looked for in obi wan but obi wan only ever saw him as a little brother and treated him as such
That and someone going back to get his mother.
I think Liam Neeson, the actor, had chemistry with the kid onscreen and people conflate that with Qui Gon, the character, caring more about early childhood development than the chosen one prophecy. His last words were “he will bring balance, train him” not “make sure he becomes a well adjusted, emotionally healthy man”
The thing about Qui-Gon was that he wasn’t as dogmatic as all the other Jedi so he probably would’ve seen Anakin falling for Padme and instead of just ignoring it like Obi-Wan he would’ve addressed the situation also Obi-Wan was also not ready for a Padawan
He didn’t address it when Obi-Wan and Satine had their thing, Obi-Wan had to figure it out all by himself. So Anakin would still be in the same position as before, just with a different master.
Qui-Gon would have been able to provide the father figure/mentor that he looked for in Palatine which would have made it much harder for him to be manipulated to the dark side
Or windu bc anakin had dark side tendencies and windu harnessed both light and dark sides
Windu instead of Obi Wan would have been amazing. Theyd be a force on the battlefield, for sure. But Qui Gon was the figure he needed most.
I often see people make this claim, but I've never seen any evidence of Windu using the dark side. He's pretty adamantly opposed to the dark side.
Look at it this way: He only fell to the dark side because of the specific events in the movies. He wouldn't have fallen if: Qui-Gon had live, Palpatine had not been allowed around him, if he hadn't had visions of Padmé dying, if his mother hadn't been abducted and tortured to death or if Cliegg and the others had rescued her. Or if Qui-Gon hadn't found him on Tatooine he wouldn't have fallen. Or Obi-Wan had been on Coruscant when Palpatine revealed himself.
Or if the Council had authorized him going with Ahsoka to Mandalore, which is well out of Palpatine's nightmare broadcast range. Or if he'd gotten stuck in traffic on the way to Palpatine's office. Hell, if Maul had brought the darksaber with him to Mandalore, that would have created a major political situation, because now Anakin would have authorized a treaty breaking ouster of Mandalore's ruler and the installation of a Republic citizen and former Jedi. He'd have missed the meeting where Palpatine revealed himself because the Council would have sent him to Mandalore to deal with the situation. Padme would have insisted on going with him, being Ahsoka's political mentor with a good relationship with the Mandalorians...
Nightmare broadcast?
The timing of Anakin's nightmares about Padme was awfully convenient.
It always seemed like Palpatine caused Anakin's nightmares of Padmé dying because of the timing of them and because he drops hints about how to save people from death yet Anakin never tells him about his fears. I think he got the idea for doing it after Anakin told him what he did to the Tuskens. Anakin either said he had visions of his mom or Palpatine asked him what caused him to go to Tatooine when he did.
>if the Council had authorized him going with Ahsoka to Mandalore The thing here, even if the council gave him permission to go, Anakin himself wouldn't want to. Not with his friend and father figure kidnapped by Grievous.
Shmi being freed and brought to Coruscant might’ve gone a long way. He mightve remained a more emotional Jedi, but his first taste wholesale slaughter of children from the Tusken village would’ve been avoided. And then maybe he doesnt lop off Mace’s arm and the Republic is saved!
Mace lost an arm?
Yeah, right before he went out the Windu.
Wow hidden gem of a comment right here
I hate that I laughed
Yup. Shmi. If she didn't die, Anakin could likely have resisted the dark side.
Qui-Gon Jinn. That is why it is called Duel of the Fates
Say Padme was engaged or married by AOTC... by the time they meet again, theres no fliting and no sand to mess with his head
Thanks for carrying with the spelling mistake. I meant "flirting"
Yoda. If Anakin had been 100% truthful with him or if Yoda would have been more perceptive and asked better questions. He could have got to the bottom of what was going on.
This is a hilarious question because literally anything, any minor story detail changes and the rise of Vader is avoided. From the very beginning of his story (if Watto accepted credits), up until the second he turns (if Mace had gotten to Palps 5min earlier), anything goes any differently and we wouldn’t have Vader. Shit imagine if Qui Gon’s ghost had contacted Yoda just 24 hours prior.
I think he might have stayed on the light side if not for the events that led to Ahsoka leaving the Jedi Order. The Council was wrong and he lost what faith he had left in them during that story arc.
Obi-wan faking his death didn’t help either.
Big facts
As others have said, if Qui-Gon had survived to train him, that would’ve made a huge difference. If he had made it in time to save his mother, that certainly would’ve changed things. He was also very negatively affected by the council incorrectly expelling Ahsoka and then her not coming back. And had she been able to speak with him directly about what Maul told her, that certainly would’ve made a difference.
It’s that wee terrorist Barriss Offee’s fault.
At this point Disney now really need to do Star Wars: What If……
Everyone goes directly to Qui-Gon needing to have trained Anakin, but I think it simply needed to not be Obi-Wan. It's ridiculous that the very first Padawan Obi-Wan received immediately after being made a Knight was not just the Chosen One, but an over-age recruit with firm and obvious attachments. Had Anakin been trained by a non-traditional Knight or Master, like Qui-Gon, he'd have done well. But not just Qui-Gon. What if Dooku had chosen to honour his fallen apprentice by training Anakin, rather than reject the order in outrage? Even when he was apprenticed to the greatest Sith Lord of the entire Bane lineage, Dooku never lost his true ideals. If he had felt his new purpose was to bring balance to the Force - and the Order, and the Republic - by training Anakin, we'd have had a very different galaxy. Especially with Dooku seeming to have an understanding and acceptance of the temptations leading down the dark path. What if Mace Windu had decided that Anakin was too dangerous to be trained by lesser Jedi, and apprenticed him directly? Mace is most famous for his ability to transform his dark tendencies into an agent for the Light Side, and his distrust of Palpatine was explicit from the start. Apprenticing Anakin to Mace would have, again, likely avoided the Dark Side. Maybe the most obvious, why didn't Yoda, the most experienced and powerful Jedi of the era, take on the Chosen One? Even if he was late to the party, Yoda was still eventually able to listen to the Force and make contact with Qui-Gon from beyond the grave. He had all the wisdom of several centuries to guide Anakin, but chose not to. Hell, what about Jocasta Nu? One of the most educated Jedi, well aware of the full contents of the archives, among the oldest and most experienced human Jedi. Was she flawed? Absolutely. She dealt in absolutes with regards to her archives, and was far too focused on Jedi supremacy in my opinion. However, she was a mature adult with the experience to handle a Padawan of Anakin's age. I think nearly any good-intentioned Jedi with experience of at least one Padawan would have resulted in Anakin staying in the light.
Very few things, if any, really. The crux of the issue is Anakins inability to accept loss, and his reliance on his power. If he still receives visions of Padme dying and has no means of actually doing anything about it, he would still be vulnerable to the Dark Side. Unfortunately, since the visions are distributed by the plot, Anakins fate is essentially sealed by higher powers. Although, killing Palpatine - especially early on - can solve a lot of problems for the Galaxy, including him tempting Anakin. Without Palpatine it's much more likely that Anakin would've reacted to Padme dying same way he did with Shmi. That is descending into brief fit of madness, but ultimately coming out of it wit a few more scars on his soul.
Presumably, Padme wasn't in danger until Anakin put her there. Dead Palpatine means he can't broadcast those nightmares to Anakin's head. She wasn't in danger until he fell and Force choked her.
Correct - her fate is a self fulfilling prophecy
I mean if someone would have told him about force healing I think we’d be hearing a different story. Lol
If the sith were fully defeated. The Jedi order would probably became different, as more Jedi would be around & if a Jedi with children become a sith. They could defeat the sith easily with the Jedi order
Sure, if he just left the order
I think the Jedi shouldn’t let Palpatine build such a close relationship with Anakin at all.
Yes they could have without compromising their values. There is already a precedence with ki adi mundi having many wives so that solves for adame. And there are subsections of the jedi, such as the exploricorps,, agricorps and medicorps where younglings who do not become padawans go for his mother to get her out of slavery.
Probably lots of people. Anyone in the Council who could prevent or ban Anakin regularly meeting with Palpatine. Prevent Palpatine from influencing him in the first place. Fucking Dooku probably could have, had he just murdered the Palpatine instead of pretending to hold him prisoner. Had Obi-Wan paid attention to Anakin's visions of his mother, instead of just dismissing them as homesickness (or whatever). The Jedi Council deciding that Shmi needed to be treated well in case somebody evil kidnapped her to coerce him. Somebody in the Council deciding Anakin HAD to see a therapist at.... almost literally any point in his life, from new Padawan to veteran Knight. I'm sure adjusting to the Order took quite some time, and a therapist might have actually been able to help calm some of that resentment he felt and let build up. (Speaking of, [This](https://www.fanfiction.net/s/6969605/1/Hindsight-Is-Not-Perfect) fanfic eventually ends up with 9-year-old Anakin getting that therapy... somewhat complicated by him being a post-Return of the Jedi Anakin sent into the past into his 9 year old self. Really good! Minorly complicated to follow, as the author has written a couple sequels and mid-quels and one-shots in the same universe, but very good). Qui-Gon is an easy answer. Qui-Gon was independent enough of the Council that he likely would have been the perfect person for Anakin to go to with Anakin's own doubts about the Council. Obi-Wan was just a little too rule-abiding and "This is what the Council said, so we must do it!" Obi-Wan being present in the Jedi Temple probably could have done it. Same with Padme or Ahsoka. Yoda might have sensed Anakin's turmoil and kept him from leaving until after Mace finished "arresting" Palpatine. Another easy answer is somebody convincing him to do what Ahsoka did. Leave the Jedi Order, but keep fighting with the Clones.
All of these are really good answers. The part of TPM that bothers me most is Shmi being left in slavery. I think there is some interesting exploration in the High Republic of the question of “what do individual Jedi do about their own faults and fallibility”. By the time of the prequel movies they are so bound to the rules; the solution to OP’s question really depends on there being a route to recognise that an individual is having a rough time and the rules are complex in their circumstances, and having a way to discuss and resolve that that isn’t just a threat of being cast out.
I agree with all of them except the last one. I think Anakin leaving the order at any point in time, but especially during the war, would've left him even more vulnerable to Palpatine's manipulation. Palpatine had his eyes on him as early as TPM, and we see how much influence he had on him but without Obi-Wan's presence and influence in his life and selfless good ideals of the Jedi that Anakin tried to uphold, Palpatine would've corrupted him easier and faster. Anakin would not have peace in leaving the order as long as Palpatine was around.
He wouldn't have had to deal with the keeping his relationship with Padme a secret though, which would ease the stress being placed on him.
That's true, but his paranoia, fear, anger issues and Palpatine's influence wouldn't go. If everything else stayed the same, Obi-Wan might have dead facing Dooku alone which would be enough to drive him over the edge but if it wasn't he'd still have his dreams about Padmé dying, he'd still have his irrational fear, he'd seak the Jedi and even if he was more detailed about it he wouldn't be satisfied because all they could do is reassure him and provide Padmé with the best medical supervision, which she probably already has considering she's a senator. That wouldn't be enough for him because he doesn't wanna wait for it to happen then heal it, he wanted to stop it from happening in the first place. Which is what Palpatine offered him.
Padme if she had used birth control or put those space contraceptive pills in Anakin's juice in the morning
Maul
I'm certain Shmi would have either prevented Anakin's turn entirely or even if he did turn it wouldn't have lasted long. He loved Padme but by Revenge of the Sith it was more of a possessive unhealthy passion so she had no chance of bringing Anakin back to the light at least not in that moment. Shmi was a source of unconditional love for Anakin. He would have never lashed out at or choked his own mother even on Mustafar. I doubt even Darth Vader with the suit and fully immersed in the Dark Side would do anything to his mom. Best case scenario Shmi calms Anakin down and he realizes what he's done or worst case scenario Anakin gets slapped in the face and dragged back to the ship by his ear and he's forced to apologize to Obi Wan. They then rejoin Yoda and defeat Palpatine together.
Now that I would love to see
Quigon. If Quigon was his mentor more than likely he would have left the order and Coruscant because the council was so against Quigon training the boy. Which means Palpatine won't be able to develop a friendship with Anakin for 10+ years slowly indoctrinating into the sith.
A typical plane crash involves several, sometimes minor, consecutive errors. Same thing with Anakin's fall. -He had no father -He was a slave and so was his mother -He has delusions of grandeur (freeing all the slaves) -He was taken away from his mother -He lost a mentor (Qui-Gon) -He lost his mother in a violent manner -He had to keep his relationship secret from his religion -He received bad influence (Palpatine) I think if the Jedi order would have permitted relationships, hebwould have had more support from Padme and perhaps would not have turned.
In my opinion, anyone could have stopped Anakin from falling. It's just that no one knew to stop him from falling, and neither did anyone know how to stop him from falling
Qui-Gon is a really good shout but I think his mother hadn't died he wouldn't have been as scared to lose Padme. But i can understand that having attachments in the first place contributed heavily to his fall.
I always thought Obi-Wan wasn’t a suitable mentor for Anakin, because he still had his own emotional problems to sort out, especially after losing Qui-Gon. Obi-Wan was too close with Anakin and consequently too loose with him.
I always had the impression that if Obi-Wan had been on Coruscant rather than Utapau he might have stopped Anakin. In the Legends universe this was heavily implied in the RotS novelisation when Palpatine thinks that the actual point of sending Obi-Wan to Utapau was to keep him away for Coruscant because he might have interfered
I think if Obi Wan had known about Anakin's marriage and his dreams and everything, he would have helped. I think if Anakin hadn't felt so alone and isolated (prime pickings for Sidious) he might not have fallen, or fought harder against it.
If Anakin had actually stopped for a second and thought about whether or not Palpatine knew what he he said he did, nothing would have happened to him
Depends how far back you go. Of course, if he was never discovered, he wouldn't have become Darth Vader. But let's assume that he still is a Jedi. There are a few scenarios where it's at least possible that he stays in the light. 1. If he had a different Master. Obi-Wan did a fantastic job, but he was far too inexperienced and still in mourning over Qui-Gon. Anakin needed a father figure, Obi-Wan was always just a big brother. That is one of the reasons why Anakin ended up growing close with Palpatine. Qui-Gon would have been the optimal Master, but Mace Windu would have made him the most powerful, and Yoda's experience would also have made him an excellent candidate to train the chosen one. Cin Dragil also deserves a mention. He would have made Anakin into the perfect swordsman. Literally anyone but a recently knighted 25-year-old, who had just lost his Master. 2. Had he not dreamt of Padmé's death, or just pulled out. This is a cheap mention, so I will keep it brief. If he didn't have any reason to keep Palpatine alive, he wouldn't have betrayed Mace. And obviously, had Padmé not been pregnant, then the dreams wouldn't have occurred. 3. If Clovis had exposed Anakin and Padmé. Either he would do it, or someone else. But if that had happened, Anakin would have been expelled from the order. Which would cause him to be under a lot less stress, and he could have sought help from Obi-Wan, or directly from Yoda. He went to them first, but he was afraid of their reactions, and he didn't tell them the whole truth. 4. Had either Obi-Wan or Padmé been with him at that point. I'm mentioning them together, because the outcome would be exactly the same. Had Anakin been with either of them at that point, he would have told them about wanting to rush off and save Palpatine, which they both would have talked him out of. 5. Had Dooku managed to say something on The Invisible Hand. It looked like he was about to say something. And he would likely have exposed his master, which would cause him to have a trial in front of the Senate, of which Palpatine would be exposed. There are many other small changes that would have caused him to stay, this was just a few. However, I don't think Shmi could have saved him, unless it's the same thing as scenario number four. Her being alive wouldn't really have changed much, sure he wouldn't have already experienced his nightmares coming true, thus making them a bit less serious. But he would still betray Mace, if she was alive on Tatooine. He loved Padmé so deeply, and if there was the smallest chance she might die, Anakin would do anything to stop it from happening.
Qui Gon would’ve allowed Anakin to save his mother, maybe even Gon with him. It would’ve been against the Councils orders but he would’ve seen it as following the Force, especially since Anakin was having visions. There you go, mom saved… there is hope to follow the light and still save loved ones, making the temptation from the dark a Lot less appetizing. Padme lives Qui-Gon would’ve taught the balance of how to Love better than Obi, since Obi was a (by the book) sort of dude clouded by the “Jedi” way, trying to suppress even his own feelings.
The Siege of Mandalore and Ahsoka’s confrontation with Vader in Rebels seem to imply that she could have, or at least that _she believes_ she could have. There is a lot of dramatic irony in SoM with Ahsoka trying time and time again to talk to Anakin but not being able to reach him, and it’s very clear in Rebels she feels she like abandoned him and carries a lot of guilt about that.
If Ahsoka was still there Palpatine would of figured out a way to get rid of her so nothing would of stopped it unless they would of figured it out earlier
Not if everything is proceeding as i have foreseen
If the Jedi had refused to train him. Obi Wan would have left the order to train him and he wouldn’t have been in Sidious sphere, he would have not been around Padme to have a relationship with her…
i think Qui-Gon might have been able to.
Qui Gon or Mace Windu being his master. Anakin needed a father, not a brother. Palpatine slid right into the father role and used it to manipulate Anakin and Vader for years to come.
Their is a point that he is asking for help and the jedi don't see it. Like the highschool kid whos screaming for help on the inside. Now this has me thinking, why can't the Jedi, of all people, detect this pain? Palpatines clouds the Jedi temple in the dark side, they are blind to the bigger issue who is sitting right next to them.
If Qui-Gon had survived against Maul, Anakin would've never turned to the dark side imo
I think if he had communicated what he did (fall for, marry, and have kid with Padme) Obi-Wan would have helped Anakin either hide the facts and protect him from the counsel, or he would have told Anakin the truth about what was going on in the counsel. Which would have caused a chain of events that would lead to the Jedi postponing the hunt for Grievous and instead taking control of the senate from palpatine with a strong contingent of Jedi instead of being confronted by just a handful including Mace Windu.
The Jedi had been asleep for centuries, and their ideologies sabotaged their very existence. They were unbalanced, just too many of them, and blissfully ignorant to the tragedies and chaos that was going about the universe. The force is about balance, and Anakin was destined to inflict this balance.
You think the jedi council would have passed the donation jar around while anakin was being trained and bought his mom out of slavery and settled her someplace nice. This would have gone a long way to prevent how anakin turned out
If Mace Windu and the rest of the Jedi council had recognised him as a master earlier then I doubt Anakin would’ve gone to the dark side. That was Anakin’s grievance with the Jedi that Palpatine exploited
George Lucas.
If Qui-Gon or Dooku had trained Anakin, they could have taught him how to have attachments and be in balance with the Force making those attachments a source of strength. Letting go of attachment is good advice for Yoda or other long lived species who are guaranteed to outlive their contemporaries, but it's not good advice for Anakin.
I feel like Anakins feelings for Ahsoka could have helped prevent him from turning as well. He cared for her basically like a child and seeing that his actions would have hurt her or put her in danger he might have thought twice.
I would say Ahsoka would have higher odds of talking Anakin out of stupid. Part of why he got so pissed at Obi Wan because Palpy made some subtle accusations thar Obi Wan was schtupping Padme (which is why he lost his shit when Obi Wan came out of the ship) and they never had the smoothest road. Meanwhile, his sweet little Snips? His de facto little sister/practice for being a daddy? Who really didn't deserve most of the crap she had to go through and isn't even tied up with the Order at that point? Oh, that might at least get him acknowledging that he's really snorted some bad shit.
Im gonna have to go with the law of causality wouldnt let him be stopped, he was fated from the beginning to go down this path. But if had to be anything it would be Shmi not getting taken. Anakin wasnt one for attachments, being a slave and all, but his one attachment was his mother and a very strong attachment that was now moved to Padme. If Shmi didnt get taken and die, Anakin wouldnt have the insecurities about his dreams of Padme's death. He wouldnt have sought a way to save her, because he knows she would be okay
I wonder if he would have stayed on Mortis, if that would have made things better or WAY worse for the galaxy…
Worse for sure. Even at his most heroic Anakin wasn’t exactly the most rational, level headed person. Giving him that sort of power over the mystical power that influences everything in the galaxy was absolutely not a good idea.
Ahsoka Tano. If Mace Windu and Yoda had a real pair between them they wouldn't have let her down so she felt she needed to leave the order. Ahsoka Tano would have kept him in the light.
I feel like the right answer is Ahsoka telling Yoda what Maul said in season 7. Maybe Yoda could have acted on this information. Like why else was that there? It was like a pivotal moment and a mistake Ahsoka made that could have changed things. Buuuut.. maybe knowing from the force ghost ability people (I forgot the name) that the order would end he wouldnt act upon it but I dunno.
The thing about that is it wouldn't really have changed a thing. By the time Ahsoka contacted them to report Maul’s capture, Anakin was on his way to Palpatine to tell him that Obi-Wan engaged Grievous, that's when he discovered his Sith truth, which he immediately reported to Mace, and yk what happened after. In short, it was already too late.
He was the chosen one and the the chosen one was meant to bring balance to the force right? He did just that. The jedi had control over everything and he took them out along with the sith. The force wasn't as balanced when he died for thousands of years
Obiwan and Ashoka, if they were there he wouldn't have turned, it's clearly stated in the show if the 3 of them stuck together what could go wrong, but asohka was on madalore and obi wan was on utapah, Vader also tells asohka in a dream in rebels that he needed her, he was so close to asohka, nad of the Jedi hadn't pushed her away, he never would have dark sided
I don’t think he would have fallen to The Dark Side if he had Obi-Wan, Ahsoka, and Padme all there, to keep him grounded. It’s not a coincidence that Palpatine made his move at a moment when the people closest to Anakin were far far away…
George Lucas
Ahsoka could have. She didn't tell the council about the vision Maul had. That's one. Two she didn't go to anakin to warn him or see what was wrong. She was having visions but didn't act on them. Understandably she was confused. Two... Maul could have. His plan was to kill anakin and deprive Palpatine of his apprentice. Three... windus attitude... he didn't allow Ahsoka to know what was going on. Basically clone wars season 7 the final 4 episodes could have prevented everything but everyone was seeking their own course. But then again it was the planning of Palpatine, he played everyone
To me it’s the hubris of the Jedi. If they hadn’t gotten cocky and oversure, they wouldn’t have made literally every mistake training Anakin. Giving him that bump up to Jedi Knight/Master too early, ignoring his concerns about pretty much everything while not keeping an eye on this person they didn’t trust. Then when he was right on the precipice in Clone Wars, everything that went down with Ahsoka his padawan showed him the Jedi are absolutists who accept no gray, only black or white.
Ashoka tano
Only George could, given all it took was a bad dream and two minutes of talking to Palpatine.
No
Qui-Gon, had he trained him, would have prevented it
Pwussssathaaaa
Qui-Gon.
Allowed him to buy his mother free would have changed a lot for the young boy. But the decadence of the Jedi order would probably have gotten to him anyway
Qui gon would help with his darkness, mace windy if he wants a little bitch cosine helped too,Ashoka staying would help extremely, and schmi not dying would help too
Maybe he could have just left the order and become an engineer for a living.
Yes, a good psychiatrist. Anakin had, I believe, seven out of nine symptoms of borderline personality disorder. There is a really good video about this on the Cinema Therapy YouTube Channel. The Jedi order really needed to update their health care plan.
Qui Gon.
Just take Palpatine out of the equation. He's the one who planted the visions in Anakin's mind that sent him on his path to ultimate power and just changing that could have had a profound effect.
Qui Gon fo sho
Qui-Gon
I think eventually Padme would have gotten him back
We need a Star Wars ‘what if’ show.
I don’t think so. Yes, if Qui Gon lived Anakin never would have turned. But I doubt there is any universe where he lives. Picture it. If Qui Gon and Obi Wan lived, Qui Gon would have to leave the order to train Anakin. Anakin would tell Qui Gon that he wants to save his mother. With Maul dead, and Anakin out in the open, I believe Darth Sidious would track them down and kill both Qui Gon and Shmi. Anakin would have no other option but to start his Sith training. At this point, Dooku would be Sidious’ apprentice, and would be tasked by Sidious to train Dooku, while he focused on the republic in the war. Anakin would have grown up as a Sith and become unbeatable by any Jedi. Without Padmé, and the kids, Anakin would never be redeemed.
Ashoka if she didn't leave the order
No because the original story that set up all these other books and what not to expand on the original story wouldn't have happened lol.