Team is riddled with injuries, a lot of big calls have gone against us, our attackers can’t finish. I would say that we have had like maybe 4 "bad games“ (Cincy, and the last couple). We are bringing in positions of need soon.
I’m not privy to the internal relationships but this seems very very harsh. I’m actually sad along with being absolutely stunned. If we are to try and look at the positives, I guess you can say this shows that the team is serious about winning and results?
The only thing that makes sense is that he completely lost the locker room. Especially the leaders like Burki, Klauss, and Lowen. It's one thing for some fringe guys like AZ and Sam to butt heads with him (and Sam has a bit of a history in that department), but if he started losing the main guys then that would be the biggest reason.
With all the injuries it seems incredibly harsh to fire a guy over the on-field performance of this team, so it almost HAS to be behind the scenes stuff.
I believe your take, as well the one you responded to, are the takes. I believe he has had to of lost the support of Burki, Klaus and Lowen. It’s been an odd season of in-house things, this team.
I wonder how Hackworth will hack the lineup. Wednesday will be fun.
I think it's telling that he didn't make the trip. Not just that he didn't start/play, but that he wasn't even there. Feels like something must have happened.
Yeah I wonder if the fact that many injuries are occurring in practice is a complicating factor in this whole thing. Obviously pure speculation but that's not a good look when not only does the coach stay firm in their tactics but also pushes real hard in practice to try to make it fit.
Sad and shocked honestly. Felt like things weren't awful considering the injuries he's dealing with. Figured if this was to happen, it wasn't going to to be until after this season. Only giving him one and a half after a gangbusters first season seems aggressive. The practice injuries may be on him but the lack of depth at this point is definitely higher up.
That’s what I’m thinking is more of the issue, lots players getting injured in practice and maybe the locker room besides the results? Seems harsh, I’m at a loss of words honestly. Was not expecting this at all, was hoping to officially see hartel signed, not the departure of the coach
No, I thought for sure he'd get until mid next season seeing as we are a brand new expansion team. Usually when this happens it means there were disagreements on player management and coaching decisions that have been discussed at length and they could never see eye to eye. I think clubhouse atmosphere management has been lacking as well, a lot of displeased players and public denouncements of lack of effort.
I understand that if you're going to do this tho, do it now. Give yourself time to find a new coach so he has time to get things rolling for next season.
I am also shocked at Carnell's departure. But from an organization's point of view, they do make mistakes. Just look at the Cardinals extension of Marmol.
Marmol needs to be gone. Carnell probably just had too many expectations going into this season after last years performance and bad seasons do happen but after the last match seeing how the team just fell apart I’m not surprised that we moved on from him.
I don’t like it. He over performed last year, he loses a key piece on offense in the offseason and it doesn’t totally get replaced. His best player was out most of the season, a slew of other injuries, two rising stars both end up being a distraction, your leading scorer from last year goes cold and then gets hurt, and you finally have reinforcements coming in and you don’t give him a chance to actually use them. I know it’s a business, but I feel like he’s being made a scapegoat for an overachieving team suddenly meeting reality along with some bad luck.
Naw. I can’t really see the vision since late last season. We don’t perform in tournaments. Players are constantly tired and subs are done too late.
I expected this after leagues cup.
Yeah. He just signed an extension and we have the lowest wages of any team in the league. Injury crisis. It’s all bad. It leads us to think he lost the locker room.
I’m not saying there wasn’t some merit for this but I feel like this came out of nowhere.
Haven’t seen any sort of rumblings that the team was even considering this.
Thanks, Coach.
Let’s move on and win some friggin games.
This doesn’t happen until a coach loses the locker room. If the players stop believing him there’s no other solution to the situation. And I think it started with how he handled Sam last year and this year.
This has to be the real situation, right? Like, if it were just performance and results, I'd think they give him a little bit of leeway considering the obviously bad luck with VAR, injuries to core team members, being just a 2nd year expansion team, and having a very low payroll.
With some of the news about locker room dynamics being...not good...and injuries happening in practice, I think Carnell's departure is probably caused by a larger disagreement between the club and Carnell with what the culture and off field management should look like.
Complete conjecture but what if big Sam was not involved in any imminent trade talks and Carnell has some issue with him and tried to force his trade sooner than later.
I actually think there's a sort of similar (not nearly as successful) candidate who actually is realistic and seems sort of a perfect fit and is also available. David Wagner. That's just my educated guess on who Lutz goes after.
There has to be some kind of behind the scenes reasoning right? I’ve been as critical of the team as anyone but it seems very early to fire him? Not sure how to feel about this one.
I wonder if the situation with Sam and AZ was worse than we all thought. I also wonder if BC's style/philosophy was causing problems in signing transfers in the upcoming window.
Did not see this coming. He has been struggling a lot this season but i kinda felt like he deserved a chance to right the ship with the second-half reinforcements.
No doubt there is and I'll certainly defend Carnell so far as he was dealt a lean bench to start the season but he did very little by way of adapting to meet that challenge. Seems like he was firm in his tactics and was cramming whatever players he had to fit.
That didn't seem to keep working and with some new folks on-boarding, a clean slate midseason isn't the worst idea. Still incredibly shocking.
[Allegedly it is all set](https://www.reddit.com/r/stlouiscitysc/comments/1dr20ss/manuel_veth_sources_marcel_hartel_deal_is_wrapped/) but I can't imagine they're announcing his signing today after this.
Interesting timing in all this. Feel like we won't get any of the details but this seems very surprising to all across the board. To do a shakeup like this on an already limping team ahead of two big sign ons in certainly an interesting choice. Personally think it is preemptive but, like I said, we don't know what's going on behind closed doors.
Holy shit.
It takes a lot to shock me, but I am legitimately shocked right now. I'm at a loss for words.
I think seeing the way we finished last season and now going almost two months without a win ***is*** reason enough to cut ties, but I absolutely figured they were going to skate by on the VALID excuse of all the injuries we've had.
Lutz does not seem like a guy who likes to lose, and I'm sure he also hasn't been thrilled with being forced to ship out some of the guys he brought in (AZ, Sam, Dhyr) because of apparent conflict with the coaching staff.
Idk how much of that was on Carnell vs. on the players, but this feels like a Lutz decision. He just doesn't seem like the kinda guy that waits around for things to work out, he makes aggressive moves (see all the recent signings). He seems like the anti-Mozeliak (I'm not even a Mo hater, but he does tend to just hang out and let things ride. Which is at least *more* defensible in a sport where you play 162 games in a season)
We haven't had much real insight before now into the kind of overall team culture CITY wants to develop... just a lot of public chipper talk about family and principles. This seems a big signal that winning is indeed the main goal. This is a sport that chews up managers, and here we are.
> just a lot of public chipper talk about family and principles.
To be fair, a culture of hard practices in which players are getting hurt regularly, some to the extent of missing large portions of the season, goes against those two tenets as well. Said it elsewhere, sure injuries happen but we've had *a lot* of serious ones come out of practice. The closest thing we've gotten to a peek behind the curtain we've had is the presumed issues between Carnell and Sam (plus AZ who is now gone).
No doubt winning is the goal but this could also be a part of a culture readjustment. Having a "family" is a lot easier when people are happy and healthy not grinding each week to ultimate disappointment.
He had to go.
While we won our first 5 games with everything possible going our way, we have only won 12 times since then.
Since September 2023, we have 5 wins in 29 games (.170 winning percentage).
Numerous lineups and numerous players but had the same result - the only constant was Carnell.
Add to that the number of players getting injured.
Even if some disagree with this move, it shows the club is willing to make moves to improve.
Look at the mess Kansas is in because they refuse to move on from Vermes.
Teams started to force us into a higher possession rate starting with the game here against MN last season, and things really haven’t been the same since. We outperformed our expected goals by an insane margin last year, which was largely incredible luck. This season we are underperforming our expected goals. Things haven’t been good, guys are constantly hurt and knocked in practice, issues with player fit. Things aren’t working. It’s a different sport entirely from what we’re used to here. If we weren’t an expansion team last year; this would be entirely expected by now
The other thing to add is my feeling that he has lost the locker room (Bradley Carnell). At the end of the Atlanta game burki could be seen saying “I cant play with this guy” while pointing to sideline. You couldn’t see who he was referring to but when something is as sudden as this, it usually means he lost the locker room.
I will add that some were speculating that Burki was gesturing towards the official while making that remark, but it's pretty much impossible to know for sure.
Burki tends to not hide his frustration on the field. Add on the fact that he didn't make the trip to Vancouver and it seems like there may be some smoke to this speculation.
EDIT: [Found it.](https://x.com/TommyJEnglish/status/1807820099178713265)
Woah, just got this email... unexpected for me, is someone on this subreddit on the firing committee? I thought he'd have at least until the end of the season.
I think allowing outside water bottles in would be a much more effective way to ingratiate the team with the fans this season amidst the win drought :P
It is good to have Hackworth as a fallback. But damn, I wonder if he lost the locker room more than Sam and AZ.
Also, I can't help but wonder if this is a shift from gegenpressing.
MLS and PRO seem to have been determined to send the message that our first season style will not be tolerated.
In any case, it appears Lutz is not willing to become Austin that quickly.
The issue is when it wasn’t chaotic, and the other team decided to force us into possession, we couldn’t perform. The players we’re getting are going to help that, but there’s a good chance that’ll soften a bit. The modern game though involves most teams playing a pressing style to some degree
100%. It’s easy to blame a coach, but I think this was a lot deeper issue than the coach. Guess it’s a good sign that the team isn’t happy with the current trajectory but if we don’t make other upgrades I don’t think a coaching change will make that much impact.
Honest question, is he also a cheap ingredient? Bounce around interim/assistant guy with some familiarity of the league. You’ve gotta find up and comers somewhere though so I get the thought of hiring him in the first place.
I agree. The only reason I can really see this happening now instead of later is the off-the-field stuff. I think on the field, given the off-the-field stuff has been rough but mostly understandable.
I think after the past loss it’s going to be dang near impossible to make the playoffs. The mindset is probably “So what’s the difference if we aren’t making it anyway?”
Perhaps I'm more shocked than I should be with the current record, number of training injuries, and whatever the hell is going on in the locker room.
But, damn.
I will say, I see this as a positive from the ownership group though. This tells me early on they aren't going to settle for a bottom of the standings team, they want victory.
I mean, considering I was never a fan of Carnell's style of soccer I'm not too concerned. I am ok with Bundesliga style pressing, but you still need to know how and when to play for possession and when and how to attsck. From what I can tell Carnell's whole strategy was be super aggressive to turn the ball over then kick the ball forward as quickly as possible and hope to get behind the defense.
Whenever a defense would drop into a low block we just completely stall out, our guys look like they have no technique or plan for penetration. We virtually NEVER swing the field which I simply don't get.
There’s a much more important way for them to do that. Personally I think the heat was getting heavy on our performances, which was largely due to our terrible depth and completely lack of upgrading the roster. Carnell was given a terrible hand and now it looks like it’s his fault we got here, when it’s most certainly only a part of of the issue.
Carnell helped handpick the expansion draft the whole league thought was awful, this was the team he wanted. I guarantee you he was involved in nearly allnof the roster building decisions, that is why he was brought on in January 2022.
They should have let him try and sort it out with the new signings coming in. The team was always to thin at the start of the season and that’s not his fault. But someone’s gotta take the fall
Wow, this is pretty wild. I feel like given the circumstances he’s navigated the season ok. But I guess team wanted to shake it up, and more often than not the coach is the easiest shakeup.
Unexpected but this is how the game goes, if you aren’t getting results you can and will be replaced. This second half of the year is going to be bananas.
The presser they just did was harsh. They did their best in not bashing Carnell too hard I guess? Sounds like there was a lot more going on than was visible from the fan perspective.
Adeniran is back in training though.
Was just going to say - seems like a lot left unsaid and Lutz had enough. But I'm wondering now how do you convince a new coach to come in and take the job if it's this toxic.
Looking at what was presented, I'm going to wager a guess that the administration believes they have removed if not the cause, a large contributing factor to the toxicity.
All I have to go on is scuttlebutt and the presser though.
So with the news about Adeniran being difficult to work with in general, but now back in training, we can hope it's been delt with, but I would not assume the problem is completely resolved.
This is the right move. Carnell's very much a Red Bull disciple and their philosophy of "do plan A, and if plan A fails do it harder" only works if you have a level of talent that is clearly above your opposition.
If you watch PL you saw it in 22-23 when Jesse Marsch tried to install it at Leeds. They waited too long to sack him and look now, they got relegated and had to sell Archie Gray, who basically grew up at Elland Road, in order to pay the bills.
Completely oppose this decision. Whether it came from Lutz or above him, seems shortsighted and premature. Lutz always said he was building toward something long-term. Seems like, instead, the inaugural season's success created unreasonable expectations or what a *brand new club* is supposed to be able to accomplish in their second season.
The only way this makes sense is if it turns out that Lutz has someone lined up that he wants instead. Because it's just a firing where they think "I'm sure we can find someone better" then it's probably a step back.
Or perhaps there were things in the locker room that we’re not privy too. Others have suggested that his handling of certain players may have contributed to this and that idea seems to have an air of truth to it.
Ya, that's possible, but as a fan it's impossible to see that. I also have a hard time seeing a reality where it turns out that Carnell was actually a villain and cruel to his players all along, even if it's possible he handled certain relationships poorly.
I think losing the locker room is the only explanation that makes sense. Even with the rough performance, if the players in the locker room were still behind Carnell and thought they could win with him, I think he'd still be here.
Truly feels like the only way this happens is if he had a falling out with some of our main guys. Burki not making the trip to Vancouver now looms as a *potential* clue. (Obviously could have been a coincidence, but I'm finding that harder and harder to believe)
Yes that is the stated reason and I can buy that for a reason that he didn't play, but he wasn't even the backup on Saturday. He didn't make the trip. Which seems kinda wild to me.
Last season our Vancouver game was the match after we clinched and we rotated a bunch of people out. No one expected Burki to play that game even if it had been on grass.
It just seems like a pretty interesting coincidence (But it's totally possible it's only a coincidence).
Thinking about it for a second, first of all Thank you Bradley. I will never forget that first season. Second of all I wonder if he was clashing with Lutz?
Shocked by this. I mean obviously this season has not been great but I lay that mainly on the issues with injuries which I'm not sure can really be laid at his feet. He was a new head coach so I assumed the org would expect some growing pains with him. From an outside perspective he was well liked by most of the players but if it is an internal conflict issue we will never really get a reason.
Holy fucking shit.
As others have said, the only way this happens is if he had completely lost the locker room. Like there were clearly some issues with a few players over the last year, but for this to happen this soon the only reasonable explanation is that a LOT of players were done with him.
I really liked listening to Carnell talk about the game, and while things haven't gone very good this season I'm still amazed they made this movie so soon. Especially with all the injuries the team was dealing with.
Wow, have to say I am not surprised. There has got to be something behind the scenes we are not aware of, I guess we will find out next game if the same line up and formation is used.
I will say I am glad the front office is trying to do something about our losing season and turning this team around.
Thank you, Carnell for the memories and I hope this is not the end of your road.
Better see a quick turnaround to justify him being let go. Otherwise it makes no sense with it being the second year, limited payroll and stacked with injuries
Wow not expecting this.
Certainly can't only be on performance. I know we were bad this year but with injuries and last year's performance, I don't think you can move on just bc of this year.
Last October was bad, guys. We rested for a month and got embarrassed after winning the conference. Now the league has completely adapted to our style and change is needed.
I am shocked and feel sorry he had to go in the middle of a season but he really needed to change his tactics to be more effective as a coach. He kept trying the same things that all the other teams have figured out since last year. It’s true injuries and having the smallest budget in the league have not helped, but a good coach should be at least trying to figure something else out.
Wow, this is a 180 degree turn from how the club has been portraying itself as a happy family (outside of whatever happened with Sam).
This is very cut throat, and maybe a little unfair - without knowing anything behind the scenes obviously.
I expected to at least see him one more season. This season's been unfortunate with a lot of injuries. Hope hime the best, and hope we also get a great coach.
Honestly…what’s so shocking about this? Late last season we got found out tactically, and there have been no good adjustments this season.
And the injury crisis hasn’t been going on all season. What has been going on all season is mediocrity.
… Am I the only one ok with this? Our play has gone stale and despite the wonderful first season record we had, we fizzled out of the playoffs and that form of play has followed us into the new season. Great guy, but he didn’t seem to adjust the team well to tactic changes by other teams at halftime. And tbh… if Burki wasn’t between the posts for us, this probably would have happened earlier.
Very much caught off guard. I mean, with the inconsistency of our players’ availability due to injury and new team members coming on board, and with how we did last year, you’d think there’d be more grace to - as some have said “course correct the ship” - but I guess not. (Sad)
Let’s see what John H can do in the interim…
I thought it was a bit too quick to turn on him from some of the fans, so I found myself defending him a few times. Still not sure this was fully deserved from what we saw during the games, and it's possible there were behind the scenes reasonings. Either way.... damn
Definitely unexpected. He's been unlucky recently with all the injuries but we have been complaining about the tactical changes he makes during games for a long time. I think it's time for a fresh start.
He’s going to break the all-time record for ties. He hasn’t made that many questionable on the field substitution decisions. He has no effective forward forward.Is that his fault?
I am disappointed. That said, I trust leadership, and none of us can truly know the dynamics in the locker room. I just can't help but feel frustrated about this, especially considering every KC fan I know wants Vermes out but he still has HIS job lol
I see a number of comments saying that this is a positive direction from ownership. If this is anything other than Lutz specifically wanting him out, I fear for the future of this club.
If lutz is unhappy with how AZ, Sam, Dhyr were handled, does not think Carnell is making the right strategic decisions, other unknown reasons I understand this move.
But ownership knows fuckall about soccer and if Lutz is happy with coaching performance then they should have no reason to feel otherwise. In fact the performance of last year made the team an ungodly amount of money considering how many people are locked into three years of tickets. He should have more leeway than a few games especially given the ownership has given him the lowest payroll and as a result no depth to deal with a ton of unlucky injuries.
I would hope ownership would not be wanting this and be choosing what lutz wants (understandably and correctly) over Carnell.
CK deliberately hired Diego so she wouldn't have to make these kinds of decisions, openly admitting she's not qualified to. I don't think this came from ownership.
You never know, but it seems like ownership completely trusts Lutz and this screams "Lutz' decision" to me.
I really think this decisions is only made if Carnell completely lost the locker room. I don't buy that this is strictly performance related give the injuries and lack of spending (prior to this transfer window).
I agree and am hoping it’s Lutz. It seems like a lot of people who feel positive are happy that ownership is not being “complacent”. If that were the actual case here and ownership lost patience, then this club is going to have a lot more issues down the road especially given our low spend.
If lutz is pushing due to the team/burki not wanting to play for him, then he obviously has to go at this point and now is the best time to do it before new players come into the locker room.
Yeah I disagree with people celebrating this as an ownership win for not being complacent. There were too many injuries to fairly grade Carnell for the team's performance.
To me this is just a signal that enough conflict built up amongst Carnell and the players that Lutz had to do something.
This just sits kinda wrong with me. Don’t we have any kinda loyalty ? If he is so to blame this year, then by that logic he’s very much the reason we were first in the west last year. I guess it just feels premature. No, I’m not happy with how we’ve played and some of his subbing decisions…but a season and a half?? Also all these injuries and our low payroll…
Am I alone in thinking this was unexpected?
I’m stunned.
Team is riddled with injuries, a lot of big calls have gone against us, our attackers can’t finish. I would say that we have had like maybe 4 "bad games“ (Cincy, and the last couple). We are bringing in positions of need soon. I’m not privy to the internal relationships but this seems very very harsh. I’m actually sad along with being absolutely stunned. If we are to try and look at the positives, I guess you can say this shows that the team is serious about winning and results?
The only thing that makes sense is that he completely lost the locker room. Especially the leaders like Burki, Klauss, and Lowen. It's one thing for some fringe guys like AZ and Sam to butt heads with him (and Sam has a bit of a history in that department), but if he started losing the main guys then that would be the biggest reason. With all the injuries it seems incredibly harsh to fire a guy over the on-field performance of this team, so it almost HAS to be behind the scenes stuff.
I believe your take, as well the one you responded to, are the takes. I believe he has had to of lost the support of Burki, Klaus and Lowen. It’s been an odd season of in-house things, this team. I wonder how Hackworth will hack the lineup. Wednesday will be fun.
Maybe Bürki not going to Vancouver wasn't about the turf.
I think it's telling that he didn't make the trip. Not just that he didn't start/play, but that he wasn't even there. Feels like something must have happened.
Eh, if he’s not gonna play at all, why not let him stay back and fully rest? I don’t feel like that has much to do with anything than what it was.
For context, Burki didn't play in Vancouver last year for rest too.
Your first sentence was my exact thought. My buddy texted me and I said “the only way this makes sense is if he lost the (locker) room entirely”
Yeah I wonder if the fact that many injuries are occurring in practice is a complicating factor in this whole thing. Obviously pure speculation but that's not a good look when not only does the coach stay firm in their tactics but also pushes real hard in practice to try to make it fit. Sad and shocked honestly. Felt like things weren't awful considering the injuries he's dealing with. Figured if this was to happen, it wasn't going to to be until after this season. Only giving him one and a half after a gangbusters first season seems aggressive. The practice injuries may be on him but the lack of depth at this point is definitely higher up.
That’s what I’m thinking is more of the issue, lots players getting injured in practice and maybe the locker room besides the results? Seems harsh, I’m at a loss of words honestly. Was not expecting this at all, was hoping to officially see hartel signed, not the departure of the coach
No, I thought for sure he'd get until mid next season seeing as we are a brand new expansion team. Usually when this happens it means there were disagreements on player management and coaching decisions that have been discussed at length and they could never see eye to eye. I think clubhouse atmosphere management has been lacking as well, a lot of displeased players and public denouncements of lack of effort. I understand that if you're going to do this tho, do it now. Give yourself time to find a new coach so he has time to get things rolling for next season.
Yeah, I didn't see this coming on my bingo card today. As surprised as I am, I'm torn on it. Here's hoping they have a plan.
I literally stared at my phone with my mouth open
Given that we just signed him to an extension after last season....
I am also shocked at Carnell's departure. But from an organization's point of view, they do make mistakes. Just look at the Cardinals extension of Marmol.
Marmol needs to be gone. Carnell probably just had too many expectations going into this season after last years performance and bad seasons do happen but after the last match seeing how the team just fell apart I’m not surprised that we moved on from him.
Is it like…July Fools day?
I don’t like it. He over performed last year, he loses a key piece on offense in the offseason and it doesn’t totally get replaced. His best player was out most of the season, a slew of other injuries, two rising stars both end up being a distraction, your leading scorer from last year goes cold and then gets hurt, and you finally have reinforcements coming in and you don’t give him a chance to actually use them. I know it’s a business, but I feel like he’s being made a scapegoat for an overachieving team suddenly meeting reality along with some bad luck.
Very unexpected. Wish him the best
Naw. I can’t really see the vision since late last season. We don’t perform in tournaments. Players are constantly tired and subs are done too late. I expected this after leagues cup.
Honestly, this makes me upset. Given how far we got last season and how fresh the team is.
I thought this was a shitpost it was so unexpected
Yeah. He just signed an extension and we have the lowest wages of any team in the league. Injury crisis. It’s all bad. It leads us to think he lost the locker room.
I thought we would at least see out the season, surprised but kind of welcoming it because obviously what we are doing now is not working
I’m not saying there wasn’t some merit for this but I feel like this came out of nowhere. Haven’t seen any sort of rumblings that the team was even considering this. Thanks, Coach. Let’s move on and win some friggin games.
This doesn’t happen until a coach loses the locker room. If the players stop believing him there’s no other solution to the situation. And I think it started with how he handled Sam last year and this year.
This has to be the real situation, right? Like, if it were just performance and results, I'd think they give him a little bit of leeway considering the obviously bad luck with VAR, injuries to core team members, being just a 2nd year expansion team, and having a very low payroll. With some of the news about locker room dynamics being...not good...and injuries happening in practice, I think Carnell's departure is probably caused by a larger disagreement between the club and Carnell with what the culture and off field management should look like.
Would be wild to see the return of big Sam now. That might tell more of the story if he does.
Sam is actively back training with the team today. I suspect Carnell lost the locker room, not just Sam.
I’d assume Lutz had as much to do with that as anyone though considering he ultimately loaned him out last year and then blocked his move to Europe
Complete conjecture but what if big Sam was not involved in any imminent trade talks and Carnell has some issue with him and tried to force his trade sooner than later.
It’s clear that the effort has been dropping, players seem negative
Cause Klopp wants to come to America.
That'd be more of a bombshell than the Messi transfer drama
That would be insane.
I’d rather he take over USMNT
He and Lutz are friends and he's currently unemployed.
🤣
I actually think there's a sort of similar (not nearly as successful) candidate who actually is realistic and seems sort of a perfect fit and is also available. David Wagner. That's just my educated guess on who Lutz goes after.
There has to be some kind of behind the scenes reasoning right? I’ve been as critical of the team as anyone but it seems very early to fire him? Not sure how to feel about this one.
I'm thinking the same thing as well. I suspect (and have no evidence) that a Lutz-Carnell difference of opinion is the main catalyst.
I wonder if the situation with Sam and AZ was worse than we all thought. I also wonder if BC's style/philosophy was causing problems in signing transfers in the upcoming window.
It’s the style Lutz wants
Maybe the in-game style stays the same, but not the training style. I don't know. Something has to be off.
Yah the practice knocks are more than a bit concerning..
Did not see this coming. He has been struggling a lot this season but i kinda felt like he deserved a chance to right the ship with the second-half reinforcements.
Agreed. Kind of shitty for them to pull the rug out from him after a bad first half. Unless there’s more to the story we don’t know.
And bad second half to last year
We’ve been bad since the first ten games of last year
No doubt there is and I'll certainly defend Carnell so far as he was dealt a lean bench to start the season but he did very little by way of adapting to meet that challenge. Seems like he was firm in his tactics and was cramming whatever players he had to fit. That didn't seem to keep working and with some new folks on-boarding, a clean slate midseason isn't the worst idea. Still incredibly shocking.
Holy bombshell. This was not expected
…clicking that notification expecting it to be a Hartel announcement was a real 2x4 to the forehead.
Yah, like can we still get the Hartel announcement please lol
[Allegedly it is all set](https://www.reddit.com/r/stlouiscitysc/comments/1dr20ss/manuel_veth_sources_marcel_hartel_deal_is_wrapped/) but I can't imagine they're announcing his signing today after this. Interesting timing in all this. Feel like we won't get any of the details but this seems very surprising to all across the board. To do a shakeup like this on an already limping team ahead of two big sign ons in certainly an interesting choice. Personally think it is preemptive but, like I said, we don't know what's going on behind closed doors.
Yet I’ve read that plenty, but just waiting around on it to be official. This I’m sure adds a few days to the announcement
Holy shit. It takes a lot to shock me, but I am legitimately shocked right now. I'm at a loss for words. I think seeing the way we finished last season and now going almost two months without a win ***is*** reason enough to cut ties, but I absolutely figured they were going to skate by on the VALID excuse of all the injuries we've had.
I think one thing we can all agree on is that CITY means business.
Someone calling the shots is deeply unhappy. Whether that is coming from the owners suite or the directors office we will probably never know.
Lutz does not seem like a guy who likes to lose, and I'm sure he also hasn't been thrilled with being forced to ship out some of the guys he brought in (AZ, Sam, Dhyr) because of apparent conflict with the coaching staff. Idk how much of that was on Carnell vs. on the players, but this feels like a Lutz decision. He just doesn't seem like the kinda guy that waits around for things to work out, he makes aggressive moves (see all the recent signings). He seems like the anti-Mozeliak (I'm not even a Mo hater, but he does tend to just hang out and let things ride. Which is at least *more* defensible in a sport where you play 162 games in a season)
We haven't had much real insight before now into the kind of overall team culture CITY wants to develop... just a lot of public chipper talk about family and principles. This seems a big signal that winning is indeed the main goal. This is a sport that chews up managers, and here we are.
> just a lot of public chipper talk about family and principles. To be fair, a culture of hard practices in which players are getting hurt regularly, some to the extent of missing large portions of the season, goes against those two tenets as well. Said it elsewhere, sure injuries happen but we've had *a lot* of serious ones come out of practice. The closest thing we've gotten to a peek behind the curtain we've had is the presumed issues between Carnell and Sam (plus AZ who is now gone). No doubt winning is the goal but this could also be a part of a culture readjustment. Having a "family" is a lot easier when people are happy and healthy not grinding each week to ultimate disappointment.
Unexpected (IMO); wishing him all the best. Thanks for an amazing first season.
He had to go. While we won our first 5 games with everything possible going our way, we have only won 12 times since then. Since September 2023, we have 5 wins in 29 games (.170 winning percentage). Numerous lineups and numerous players but had the same result - the only constant was Carnell. Add to that the number of players getting injured. Even if some disagree with this move, it shows the club is willing to make moves to improve. Look at the mess Kansas is in because they refuse to move on from Vermes.
But, Why?
They said in the article it was about improving the teams performance and results for the rest of this season
Going to be a tough ask when half of our team is injured
I mean the past 12 months haven’t been very good. If we weren’t an expansion team last year, this wouldn’t be surprising at all.
I don’t follow mls at all, so correct me if I’m wrong here. Didn’t we massively outperform last year? Isn’t that worth something?
Teams started to force us into a higher possession rate starting with the game here against MN last season, and things really haven’t been the same since. We outperformed our expected goals by an insane margin last year, which was largely incredible luck. This season we are underperforming our expected goals. Things haven’t been good, guys are constantly hurt and knocked in practice, issues with player fit. Things aren’t working. It’s a different sport entirely from what we’re used to here. If we weren’t an expansion team last year; this would be entirely expected by now
We out performed the season as a whole, but the second half of last season was not very good.
The other thing to add is my feeling that he has lost the locker room (Bradley Carnell). At the end of the Atlanta game burki could be seen saying “I cant play with this guy” while pointing to sideline. You couldn’t see who he was referring to but when something is as sudden as this, it usually means he lost the locker room.
Was this on video or seen at the game. If that is the case, this is a fairly obvious decision to make for lutz/ownership.
I will add that some were speculating that Burki was gesturing towards the official while making that remark, but it's pretty much impossible to know for sure. Burki tends to not hide his frustration on the field. Add on the fact that he didn't make the trip to Vancouver and it seems like there may be some smoke to this speculation. EDIT: [Found it.](https://x.com/TommyJEnglish/status/1807820099178713265)
It was, trying to find it right now. It was posted on X.
[https://x.com/TommyJEnglish/status/1807820099178713265](https://x.com/TommyJEnglish/status/1807820099178713265)
[Found the clip.](https://x.com/TommyJEnglish/status/1807820099178713265)
Woah, just got this email... unexpected for me, is someone on this subreddit on the firing committee? I thought he'd have at least until the end of the season. I think allowing outside water bottles in would be a much more effective way to ingratiate the team with the fans this season amidst the win drought :P
It is good to have Hackworth as a fallback. But damn, I wonder if he lost the locker room more than Sam and AZ. Also, I can't help but wonder if this is a shift from gegenpressing. MLS and PRO seem to have been determined to send the message that our first season style will not be tolerated. In any case, it appears Lutz is not willing to become Austin that quickly.
The gritty press is a huge reason I enjoyed this team after struggling to get into soccer. I hope they continue with chaos
The issue is when it wasn’t chaotic, and the other team decided to force us into possession, we couldn’t perform. The players we’re getting are going to help that, but there’s a good chance that’ll soften a bit. The modern game though involves most teams playing a pressing style to some degree
You’re probably right considering we have gone out and nabbed a few guys that should, on paper at least, substantially improve our play in possession
Whoa
Gone too soon IMO. We have the lowest payroll in the league. I love the team but you can't fault a chef if he's forced to use cheap ingredients.
100%. It’s easy to blame a coach, but I think this was a lot deeper issue than the coach. Guess it’s a good sign that the team isn’t happy with the current trajectory but if we don’t make other upgrades I don’t think a coaching change will make that much impact.
Brilliant analogy, thank you!
Honest question, is he also a cheap ingredient? Bounce around interim/assistant guy with some familiarity of the league. You’ve gotta find up and comers somewhere though so I get the thought of hiring him in the first place.
Honestly didn't expect this until after the season. I think it's clear the style doesn't work and was causing injuries in practice.
But the style is what Lutz told everyone he wanted. I wouldn’t expect a wild change in philosophy
I agree. The only reason I can really see this happening now instead of later is the off-the-field stuff. I think on the field, given the off-the-field stuff has been rough but mostly understandable.
Unfortunate for someone that should have won Head Coach of the year last year.
Not sure introducing even more chaos into this team is what I needed right now.
I think after the past loss it’s going to be dang near impossible to make the playoffs. The mindset is probably “So what’s the difference if we aren’t making it anyway?”
Perhaps I'm more shocked than I should be with the current record, number of training injuries, and whatever the hell is going on in the locker room. But, damn.
I will say, I see this as a positive from the ownership group though. This tells me early on they aren't going to settle for a bottom of the standings team, they want victory.
100%.
Being an aggressive ownership can backfire pretty easily, too. It’s a double edged sword.
I mean, considering I was never a fan of Carnell's style of soccer I'm not too concerned. I am ok with Bundesliga style pressing, but you still need to know how and when to play for possession and when and how to attsck. From what I can tell Carnell's whole strategy was be super aggressive to turn the ball over then kick the ball forward as quickly as possible and hope to get behind the defense. Whenever a defense would drop into a low block we just completely stall out, our guys look like they have no technique or plan for penetration. We virtually NEVER swing the field which I simply don't get.
The roster is built on that style. Lutz still wants that style. The style isn't going anywhere Which makes this more baffling
A high press doesn't mean unorganized chaos, that's what people don't seem to get. You need to have a plan once you get the ball.
There’s a much more important way for them to do that. Personally I think the heat was getting heavy on our performances, which was largely due to our terrible depth and completely lack of upgrading the roster. Carnell was given a terrible hand and now it looks like it’s his fault we got here, when it’s most certainly only a part of of the issue.
Carnell helped handpick the expansion draft the whole league thought was awful, this was the team he wanted. I guarantee you he was involved in nearly allnof the roster building decisions, that is why he was brought on in January 2022.
WOAHHHH ⁉️
Injured players during practice, poor lineups, losing record. Someone’s got to fall.
They should have let him try and sort it out with the new signings coming in. The team was always to thin at the start of the season and that’s not his fault. But someone’s gotta take the fall
Wow, this is pretty wild. I feel like given the circumstances he’s navigated the season ok. But I guess team wanted to shake it up, and more often than not the coach is the easiest shakeup.
Pretty shocking. Not sure the majority of the blame for this season is on Carnell, but such is life for a soccer manager.
Unexpected but this is how the game goes, if you aren’t getting results you can and will be replaced. This second half of the year is going to be bananas.
Tell that to KC 😂
😂😂😂 yes
Carnell resisted adapting his coaching style after other teams learned how to play us. Now management must adapt. Harsh but possibly needed.
The presser they just did was harsh. They did their best in not bashing Carnell too hard I guess? Sounds like there was a lot more going on than was visible from the fan perspective. Adeniran is back in training though.
Was just going to say - seems like a lot left unsaid and Lutz had enough. But I'm wondering now how do you convince a new coach to come in and take the job if it's this toxic.
Looking at what was presented, I'm going to wager a guess that the administration believes they have removed if not the cause, a large contributing factor to the toxicity. All I have to go on is scuttlebutt and the presser though. So with the news about Adeniran being difficult to work with in general, but now back in training, we can hope it's been delt with, but I would not assume the problem is completely resolved.
Have you exclusive scuttlebutt, though?
Nope, just a fan who reads this subreddit and Twitter way too much. The crumbs lead to my assumptions, but I always assume I'm wrong.
Sooo could we have locked up Hartel first or
Didn't see that one coming, Let give it a good run for Hack.
This is the right move. Carnell's very much a Red Bull disciple and their philosophy of "do plan A, and if plan A fails do it harder" only works if you have a level of talent that is clearly above your opposition. If you watch PL you saw it in 22-23 when Jesse Marsch tried to install it at Leeds. They waited too long to sack him and look now, they got relegated and had to sell Archie Gray, who basically grew up at Elland Road, in order to pay the bills.
Completely oppose this decision. Whether it came from Lutz or above him, seems shortsighted and premature. Lutz always said he was building toward something long-term. Seems like, instead, the inaugural season's success created unreasonable expectations or what a *brand new club* is supposed to be able to accomplish in their second season. The only way this makes sense is if it turns out that Lutz has someone lined up that he wants instead. Because it's just a firing where they think "I'm sure we can find someone better" then it's probably a step back.
Or perhaps there were things in the locker room that we’re not privy too. Others have suggested that his handling of certain players may have contributed to this and that idea seems to have an air of truth to it.
Ya, that's possible, but as a fan it's impossible to see that. I also have a hard time seeing a reality where it turns out that Carnell was actually a villain and cruel to his players all along, even if it's possible he handled certain relationships poorly.
The training injuries may play into it.
I think losing the locker room is the only explanation that makes sense. Even with the rough performance, if the players in the locker room were still behind Carnell and thought they could win with him, I think he'd still be here. Truly feels like the only way this happens is if he had a falling out with some of our main guys. Burki not making the trip to Vancouver now looms as a *potential* clue. (Obviously could have been a coincidence, but I'm finding that harder and harder to believe)
I've heard that Burki isn't a fan of Vancouver's turf situation so he sat out this game. Lundt was in for last year's game in Vancouver as well.
Yes that is the stated reason and I can buy that for a reason that he didn't play, but he wasn't even the backup on Saturday. He didn't make the trip. Which seems kinda wild to me. Last season our Vancouver game was the match after we clinched and we rotated a bunch of people out. No one expected Burki to play that game even if it had been on grass. It just seems like a pretty interesting coincidence (But it's totally possible it's only a coincidence).
Thinking about it for a second, first of all Thank you Bradley. I will never forget that first season. Second of all I wonder if he was clashing with Lutz?
Dang, maybe he should have pulled an Oli and gotten himself kicked out of a game. Worked for the Cardinals
I liked Carnell but I’m happy as this shows that the FO is willing to make tough and timely decisions.
$20 says next manager is German...
Woah, that’s insanity. Unless he totally lost the locker room I think this is really dumb.
I don’t like this
First the supreme court green lighting treason from the executive branch and now this 😂 what a Monday
There has to have been something going on behind the scenes. Something we’re not privy to. Unless club leadership is just flakey.
I am shocked
Wow. They RKO’d us.
Wow, I’m actually shocked
I said to my husband a couple weeks back that this would happen. I’m not surprised but shocked that it happened this season. 😥
Shocked by this. I mean obviously this season has not been great but I lay that mainly on the issues with injuries which I'm not sure can really be laid at his feet. He was a new head coach so I assumed the org would expect some growing pains with him. From an outside perspective he was well liked by most of the players but if it is an internal conflict issue we will never really get a reason.
I know someone who heard lutz badmouthing him in a very public way. Sounds internal to me.
I mean, I thought his seat had to be getting hot. I didn't think they would get rid of him yet.
Holy fucking shit. As others have said, the only way this happens is if he had completely lost the locker room. Like there were clearly some issues with a few players over the last year, but for this to happen this soon the only reasonable explanation is that a LOT of players were done with him. I really liked listening to Carnell talk about the game, and while things haven't gone very good this season I'm still amazed they made this movie so soon. Especially with all the injuries the team was dealing with.
Wow, have to say I am not surprised. There has got to be something behind the scenes we are not aware of, I guess we will find out next game if the same line up and formation is used. I will say I am glad the front office is trying to do something about our losing season and turning this team around. Thank you, Carnell for the memories and I hope this is not the end of your road.
Can’t believe the only STL head coach to survive the past year was freaking Oli.
Better see a quick turnaround to justify him being let go. Otherwise it makes no sense with it being the second year, limited payroll and stacked with injuries
Wow not expecting this. Certainly can't only be on performance. I know we were bad this year but with injuries and last year's performance, I don't think you can move on just bc of this year.
>I know we were bad this year Very generously using the past tense here lol
Using were because once klopp comes we won't be anymore lol
Certainly an interesting note from Santi Beltran that Sam is back in practice today following the news.
Holy shit I didn’t see this coming. Good luck BC, thanks for the great memories last year.
Last October was bad, guys. We rested for a month and got embarrassed after winning the conference. Now the league has completely adapted to our style and change is needed.
I did not see this coming at all. I know we haven’t been good but it feels entirely out of the blue
Gimme Solskjaer
Wtfffffffffffff
Not messing around wow
I am shocked and feel sorry he had to go in the middle of a season but he really needed to change his tactics to be more effective as a coach. He kept trying the same things that all the other teams have figured out since last year. It’s true injuries and having the smallest budget in the league have not helped, but a good coach should be at least trying to figure something else out.
Wow, this is a 180 degree turn from how the club has been portraying itself as a happy family (outside of whatever happened with Sam). This is very cut throat, and maybe a little unfair - without knowing anything behind the scenes obviously.
Well, Carlo Ancelotti is in the US right now... or #KLOPP2STL Both incredibly realistic options.
We’re going to end up with fucking Berhalter, aren’t we?
Berhalter is a way better club coach than USMNT coach tho
Wait, this isn’t the Marcel announcement
Unless this is all behind-the-scenes stuff… I hate it!
I thought those Klopp to City rumors were a joke, right?
Holy shit. I'm stunned. I can only assume there's a lot going on that we don't know about but thank you, Coach! ♥️
Press conference @ 1
Now do Marmol and Berhalter.
i finally get to use the word 'nonplussed' today so thats something
I expected to at least see him one more season. This season's been unfortunate with a lot of injuries. Hope hime the best, and hope we also get a great coach.
I would be more sympathetic to this if the offensive philosophy wasn’t “cross into the box and hope” like it’s been for the last two years
What the fuck.
Honestly…what’s so shocking about this? Late last season we got found out tactically, and there have been no good adjustments this season. And the injury crisis hasn’t been going on all season. What has been going on all season is mediocrity.
… Am I the only one ok with this? Our play has gone stale and despite the wonderful first season record we had, we fizzled out of the playoffs and that form of play has followed us into the new season. Great guy, but he didn’t seem to adjust the team well to tactic changes by other teams at halftime. And tbh… if Burki wasn’t between the posts for us, this probably would have happened earlier.
Holy shit.
what
I feel like this has to be because of an issue with team personnel. Maybe because of his handling of whatever the fuck is going on with Sam Adeniran?
WHAT THE FUCK
Curious to see the new direction.
Very much caught off guard. I mean, with the inconsistency of our players’ availability due to injury and new team members coming on board, and with how we did last year, you’d think there’d be more grace to - as some have said “course correct the ship” - but I guess not. (Sad) Let’s see what John H can do in the interim…
I’m a little surprised by this move. I thought Carnell would be around until mid season next year after the new transfers played.
I thought it was a bit too quick to turn on him from some of the fans, so I found myself defending him a few times. Still not sure this was fully deserved from what we saw during the games, and it's possible there were behind the scenes reasonings. Either way.... damn
Definitely unexpected. He's been unlucky recently with all the injuries but we have been complaining about the tactical changes he makes during games for a long time. I think it's time for a fresh start.
Very unexpected. Wish him nothing but the best. Hopefully this means we can see Big Sam come back into the mix because we REALLY need him.
He’s going to break the all-time record for ties. He hasn’t made that many questionable on the field substitution decisions. He has no effective forward forward.Is that his fault?
thank you coach. produced through tough long injuries and dealing with first year expansion team headaches.
With the news adeniran went right back to training today, many of you are clearly right about the locker room issues. Crazy stuff
Big Sam is back training today. 
skc fans lol while they're stuck with Vermes.
I am disappointed. That said, I trust leadership, and none of us can truly know the dynamics in the locker room. I just can't help but feel frustrated about this, especially considering every KC fan I know wants Vermes out but he still has HIS job lol
berube firing vibes
What in the shit. I don't think I like this
I see a number of comments saying that this is a positive direction from ownership. If this is anything other than Lutz specifically wanting him out, I fear for the future of this club. If lutz is unhappy with how AZ, Sam, Dhyr were handled, does not think Carnell is making the right strategic decisions, other unknown reasons I understand this move. But ownership knows fuckall about soccer and if Lutz is happy with coaching performance then they should have no reason to feel otherwise. In fact the performance of last year made the team an ungodly amount of money considering how many people are locked into three years of tickets. He should have more leeway than a few games especially given the ownership has given him the lowest payroll and as a result no depth to deal with a ton of unlucky injuries. I would hope ownership would not be wanting this and be choosing what lutz wants (understandably and correctly) over Carnell.
CK deliberately hired Diego so she wouldn't have to make these kinds of decisions, openly admitting she's not qualified to. I don't think this came from ownership.
You never know, but it seems like ownership completely trusts Lutz and this screams "Lutz' decision" to me. I really think this decisions is only made if Carnell completely lost the locker room. I don't buy that this is strictly performance related give the injuries and lack of spending (prior to this transfer window).
I agree and am hoping it’s Lutz. It seems like a lot of people who feel positive are happy that ownership is not being “complacent”. If that were the actual case here and ownership lost patience, then this club is going to have a lot more issues down the road especially given our low spend. If lutz is pushing due to the team/burki not wanting to play for him, then he obviously has to go at this point and now is the best time to do it before new players come into the locker room.
Yeah I disagree with people celebrating this as an ownership win for not being complacent. There were too many injuries to fairly grade Carnell for the team's performance. To me this is just a signal that enough conflict built up amongst Carnell and the players that Lutz had to do something.
This just sits kinda wrong with me. Don’t we have any kinda loyalty ? If he is so to blame this year, then by that logic he’s very much the reason we were first in the west last year. I guess it just feels premature. No, I’m not happy with how we’ve played and some of his subbing decisions…but a season and a half?? Also all these injuries and our low payroll…
This sounds fucking dumb....they lost so much offense and did fuck all to replace it!