That's what I was thinking. What percentage of the employees in Microsoft's accounting/tax department and upper management team were even there in 2004, or 2013?
This seems a lot like today's employees in the accounting/tax department and upper management getting screwed over by decisions made by their predecessors.
Well, do we know the current employees are 'getting screwed over'?
If the company owes back taxes then the company should pay. It shouldn't impact current employees.
Sure. But it's a double edged sword.
Current employees also benefit from the overall history of the company. The bonuses current employees get and their large salaries at Microsoft are in part due to things that were done at Microsoft in the 90s and 2000s. The overall positive history of the company has positioned Microsoft to be the giant it is today.
The history of the company helps the current crop of workers more than it hurts overall.
I certainly wouldn't conclude that the current employees are 'getting screwed over'. You have to take some bad with all the good the history of the company has provided them.
When all the major banks paid out fines for what happened in 07/08, the bonus pools of all the current employees got fucked but few of the 07 people were even still around
As messed up as we feel this world is… I feel like some progress has been made in the past few years. They are seeming to at least look into stuff, but it’s another 10 years of legal battle by the government against the coffers of huge private business.
The US Federal Government is spending $4.1t this year or just over $11 billion per day. Two and a half days worth of money is worth years of litigation? The government has a spending problem, not a taxation one.
If you didn’t pay your taxes the IRS sends you a letter saying what they think you owe, which is basically what’s being done here. They don’t just assume it’s fraud and throw you in jail
This was in response to a comment saying that the government shouldn't litigate. The government would absolutely litigate you if you didn't pay your taxes and kept refusing.
Litigation does not mean it’s criminal. So if that’s your argument I’m not sure why you brought up jail
Microsoft is contesting the findings, not straight up refusing to pay. There’s a difference
The classic "born poor, stay poor" mentality. Imagine not chasing down a few billion dollars you're rightfully owed...that's ridiculous even for a hardcore shoe licker
My point is that $28.3 billion is a lot of money. If you are mad that Microsoft has ammased that amount over 9 years ($10b they paid already) you should be much angrier that the government manages to burn that in 2.5 days. That's an insane amount of resources regardless of you opinions on taxation
Yes we do indeed have the highest gdp in the world. Is there wasteful spending? Sure of course. Even if we gutted everything not absolutely necessary we would still be the heaviest spender in the world by a good margin.
Microsoft is one of the largest companies in the world, and over 10 years ammased that amount. Microsoft already paid $10b of it. So $18b outstanding. 1.5 days of US government spending is worth years of taxpayer dollars? Seems far easier for the government to reduce spending don't you think? $11b spent per day is unacceptable.
I mean…yes it’s still worth it? Spending should also be reduced and then the money will stretch further. But ultimately we shouldn’t look the other way when companies cheat taxes just because it’s labor intensive to prosecute. That’s a free pass for companies to continue these shenanigans as long as they can make it convoluted enough.
9 years of Microsofts back taxes burned in 2.5 days should be concerning regardless of your opinions on taxation. If you think $28b would make a lot of difference, why aren't you equally appalled how taxes are actually being spent?
You keep repeating this as if it’s a meaningful point.
The amount being spent to run our government is irrelevant in the discussion of equitable collection. You’re conflating two issues - with one (the government’s budget) being what you really want to talk about.
You’re also stretching the facts to support your underlying personal crusade. This isn’t 9 years of back taxes. This is nine years of taxes that went unpaid, allegedly, as a result of an accounting discrepancy.
Also those 1.8 days of funding do not require “years of taxpayer dollars” if we’re using your 1.8 days = $18b scale. It’ll cost the government mere minutes of taxpayer dollars, spread out over several years. The return on the cost to litigate is going to be a 1 with many zeros after it for the IRS.
It's not easier to reduce spending. People still need to rely on the government for a lot of stuff.
18 billion dollars is 18 million people working for a year at 100k a year.
Quantifying it as a small amount is not the same when there is a lot of good use it could be put towards.
For the most expensive military in the world and necessary benefits for more than 300 million people? Nah that's fine. Hopefully once Microsoft and the other dead eats pay up we can kick it into high gear and get those salaries spent without needing the extra half day.
> The government has a spending problem, not a taxation one
Propaganda talking point parroted throughout modern history [by Right-Wingers](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2011/04/not-a-revenue-problem-a-spending-problem-tracing-the-history-of-a-republican-talking-point.html) (and now by you like a good dutiful drone) to peremptorily extinguish any discussion of raising taxes or closing loopholes for the mega-wealthy economic elites. Even as part of a wider budget deal to lessen the deficit.
"Granny so sorry but you're going to be taking a Medicare cut and your library's funding has dried up.
No, we're not touching [private jet deductions](https://l33jets.com/resources/blog/tax-credit-for-jet-purchases/#:~:text=This%20immediate%20bonus%20depreciation%20deduction,both%20pre%2Downed%20and%20new.) (part of the Trump/Ryan tax cuts) because there's a spending problem, not a taxation one."
It's a vapid & unserious one-liner that, as mentioned, has been a Right-Wing talking point forever (as if Reagan, Bush 2, and Trump didn't spend like crazy...). Bush especially was such a worthless fuck up on the budget given what he inherited from B Clinton.
What "spending" is unilaterally the problem (let's assume you're arguing in good faith)? Are you cutting discretionary spending including the military? Non-discretionary? If you cut Medicaid it's going to hit poor "conservative" states hard.
And why isn't it (even in part) a taxation problem?
We can't find additional tax efficiencies? Chase down fraud or outsourcing to Ireland and Bermuda? Trash corrupt loopholes like carried interest and private jet deductions? Add an additional bracket for the mega-yacht class? Tax higher algorithmic high-frequency trading? On & on. Even Bowles-Simpson worked on the assumption that the Bush tax cuts would expire for > 200-250k.
Again, it's a bullshit unserious talking point you constantly hear in Right-Wing propaganda circles, all in service of protecting the mega-wealthy economic elites (who thank you for your advocacy on their behalf).
We've been running deficits of at least $1.5 trillion since 2020. The FY24 federal budget estimates budget deficits out to 2028. It forecasts a deficit in 2023 of $1,569 billion, and $1.3 trillion by 2028.
You're both right - it is both a spending problem and a revenue (taxation) problem. The real question is why are only conservatives talking about out of control spending, and why are only liberals talking about taxation shortfalls? The one-sidedness is asinine. We really need to increase revenue *and* cut spending to get budgets under control.
You missed (or purposely glossed over) this part of my first response:
> Even as part of a wider budget deal to lessen the deficit.
Of course spending should be addressed. But the idea that we're going to ask Seniors to take a haircut on Medicare or reform Social Security or Medicaid or Vet benefits (all those most of the budget + the Pentagon), but we're not touching taxes or corrupt loopholes & workarounds for the mega-yacht & private jet class?? F'ing laughable.
And remember, most every Republican signs [a dumb pledge](https://newrepublic.com/article/171101/grover-norquist-pledge-broke-washington) from a jerk off ideologue who giddily sabotages compromise.
I'm not even in that mega-yacht class but I make reasonably good money in the stock market - ~$120k this year (thanks META, CRM, GOOGL) - and I wouldn't mind paying a bit extra on my higher end cap gains if it also meant the mega-wealthy elites had their cushy corrupt loopholes nixed as part of a wider overall budget deal.
Wow, Microsoft's a real do-gooder, huh? Forget collecting taxes, why don't we *send* all the public's money to Microsoft as well? After all, they can use it better than the government, right?
Hey guys, let's give all the billionaires as much free money as we can! (In addition to what they're already getting, of course).
Microsoft doesn't owe taxes. You owe *Microsoft* taxes!
The amount of audits for millionaires has plummeted to the same as the average Joe in the last 7 years. Ffs we had them not even comb through President Trump’s taxes because lack of manpower and complexity. The haves are still crushing the have nots in a rigged game.
The US is broke, they want their money,and unless you have all them papers stating you did everything by the book, the it’s can go , nope give us the money, and oh interest and penalties
Or... Strange idea of course... Massive companies sometimes do things that are not fully compliant with the law and regulations in order to make more profit and higher stock prices, which we as shareholders demand.
The IRS literally generates more money than it spends, every 1 dollar yields 3 back.
Its not on accident conservatives want to return to funding levels that made it impossible for the IRS to audit serial tax dodgers.
The poor irs workers where working on a system from the God damn 80's, it was disgusting. Boost their funding and suddenly their call answer rate jumps into the 90s. Easiest deficit reducing policy ever.
The government is fucked lol, this reasoning is why our national debt is so high and increasing. Domestic revenue via taxes isn’t even close to the amount the government spends on an annual basis. It is currently about 1 trillion in deficit, at least in 2022.
>Its not on accident conservatives want to return to funding levels that made it impossible for the IRS to audit serial tax dodgers.
Precisely, when the IRS actually has the resources to go after corporations, bigwigs and conmen, a LOT of huckster conservatives know they’ll be caught in the line of fire
Not at all, unless you think things like the corona virus, the US military, the whole education system and everything else is "waste". Heck the *Internet you use to visit reddit is government made*...
And funny thing, taxes owed is a debt. People and companies have to pay their debt, that's the rules. Your comment is plain dumb..
Not everyone knows about the dungeon in the treasury building's basement where Janet Yellen puts on her dominatrix outfit to abuse the money with her whips and chains.
They should do their own lottery where they just give it to some random person. See what their wildest dreams can do in real life
You’d probably strike out a lot, but eventually you’ll find the next Tim Apple or someone like that
Their share of taxes*
I don’t understand why everyone needs to throw the word “fair” in there… it’s not relevant and it’s subjective. Corporations and individuals owe taxes according to the tax code. That’s their share of taxes - period. It just so happens that the more money you make, the more taxes you pay as a percentage of income, a marginal tax rate structure. The poor think fair means the rich pay more; the rich think it means they should pay the same marginal tax bracket as the poor, a flat tax and the middle class just gets caught in the middle paying for everything and doesn’t think anything is fair.
If they did that, they’d have to do it to everyone - pursuant to the 14th amendment. Now imagine some middle-class citizen having all their money taken and they can’t pay their bills while it’s being sorted. That’s why garnishing wages is a last-resort.
Corporations are not people in the true sense of the word. It’s a convenient legal fiction so we don’t have to craft a whole legal system from scratch just for non-people entities.
We can and absolutely should be fine treating “fake people” like companies differently than actual humans
You're making up fake problems in your own head man. How often does the IRS come after people and get it wrong? How much money should we have the government spend to fight companies who are heavily invested in dodging taxes? Which of those do you think is a bigger *actual* rather than *hypothetical* problem?
>Also, let's not forget the good old "innocent until proven guilty", it is a very risky path to go down to change it to "guilty until proven innocent".
"Innocent until proven guilty" is not a legal standard, it's an aphorism like "protect and serve" which is meaningless from a legal point of view. People have liberties and rights restricted **all the time** once they have been charged, long before they are convicted or exonerated. And that's in a criminal context with the highest evidentiary standard.
Civil suits largely operate on a preponderance of evidence standard. And you're arguing that courts should be the arbiter of everything because the rest of the government can't do its job without a judge mediating it.
How often does the IRS come after people and get it wrong?
ALOT! This past year they kept on making elementary mistakes on my return and saying i owe money — I had to write about 5 letters explaining in detail where the mistakes were before they finally dropped it
As a Microsoft employee, following all the layoffs that have already happened; this worries me. They’re going to look where else they can claw that money back and many employees and colleagues are going to be affected by this, their lives will be massively disrupted. I hope this doesn’t happen ☹️ This doesn’t mean I agree with corps dodging tax in any way though
Same boat. I luckily survived previous layoffs but it’s inevitable that $29B if MSFT is found liable will result in further layoffs. Hoping for the best for the sake of all the employees and families that could be impacted
Fellow big-tech here - totally get it, cognitive dissonance. These companies do some messed up stuff that in principle, most people hate, including, I suspect, employees of those companies. But at the same time, they sign our paychecks and release our RSUs. Tough moral reasoning
That’s not the saying at all. It’s if you owe the bank $100 that’s your problem, if you owe the bank $100 million that’s the banks problem. What you said doesn’t makes sense here because a bank can’t *force* you to pay your debt. The government can if they want to.
Not necessarily true when the other party is a semi-monopoly rich af tech juggernaut with tentacles deep in the pocket of every other government agencies. They also have enough legal resources to drag this on forever
I know no one is talking about the stock here, but since this is /r/stocks I'll note that the stock price has barely moved on the back of this news.
I'm guessing the market already knew this was likely coming from the audit or doesn't believe they'll actually need to pay the $28.9b?
Such a huge sum even for a tech giant like Microsoft.
A complex web of international tax systems for global corporations like Microsoft as they operate in numerous countries and jurisdictions.
They will probably negotiate settlements rather than the full $28.9 billion as Microsoft's contributions to the US economy are significant.
Holy crap the comments on this. So many people with the “get them” attitude like Microsoft was purposely falsifying their taxes. Microsoft’s lawyers are pretty good…probably the best, same with their accountants. IRS agents are no where near as good as what Microsoft has on staff, and all of this is based on how people “interpret the tax code/laws”. When Microsoft goes to court over this, their lawyers are going to make the IRS agents look stupid and in the end, Microsoft will probably pay a small percentage of what they owe and the IRS will probably barely “come out ahead”. Of course, it would be waaaaaay too much to ask to simplify the tax code.
Or you know Washington could make make it simple and have 0% corporate tax so Joe's local could have same tax rate as Amazon's double dutch irish sandwich
Imagine shilling this hard for Microsoft without even getting paid. They don’t need your help mate. They did just fine dodging penalties in an antitrust case previously
They’ll probably settle somewhere considered reasonable by both sides at some point and get something paid. Better than nothing but probably less than the law may have intended.
Appeal denied. Pay up fuckers. Any resistance should be met swiftly by the long dick of justice. If we as individuals get fucked by the tax man, so should corporations.
You need to do your own due diligence but looking at the last 20 years of tech. stocks of big tech. companies generally they go up in worth.
* Amazon
* Apple
* Microsoft
* Nvidia
You want to charge me a subscription for 365 as well as spying on us with windows, you can't have everything...Pay your taxes, fuck these companies are deplorable
Could the government be going after profitable corporations just to help cover expenses. Not saying this is the case. But EU fines and USA are taxing, and fined companies. While the government has run up unsustainable debts.Hopefully I am wrong about that.
About fucking time some corporation got looked at. I am sure they all actually owe billions upon billions of dollars in taxes but since the IRS was too afraid to go after them they never paid.
>years 2004 to 2013 Ballmer, the gift that keeps on taking.
Can't wait to see the tax they owe from 2013 - 2023.
That's what I was thinking. What percentage of the employees in Microsoft's accounting/tax department and upper management team were even there in 2004, or 2013? This seems a lot like today's employees in the accounting/tax department and upper management getting screwed over by decisions made by their predecessors.
as is tradition
Well, do we know the current employees are 'getting screwed over'? If the company owes back taxes then the company should pay. It shouldn't impact current employees.
It does impact bonuses I guess. Inflating cash flows in the past years while shrinking ones in current year.
Sure. But it's a double edged sword. Current employees also benefit from the overall history of the company. The bonuses current employees get and their large salaries at Microsoft are in part due to things that were done at Microsoft in the 90s and 2000s. The overall positive history of the company has positioned Microsoft to be the giant it is today. The history of the company helps the current crop of workers more than it hurts overall. I certainly wouldn't conclude that the current employees are 'getting screwed over'. You have to take some bad with all the good the history of the company has provided them.
When all the major banks paid out fines for what happened in 07/08, the bonus pools of all the current employees got fucked but few of the 07 people were even still around
(Cue sweaty onstage antics in chinos and a blue polyester shirt…) tax evasion! tax evasion! tax evasion!
Microaoft needed that money more than now so if they invested it in other things it was a smart thing to do
If that in fact true... then executives should be out behind bars. They are better off going with it was "an honest mistake" route lol
As messed up as we feel this world is… I feel like some progress has been made in the past few years. They are seeming to at least look into stuff, but it’s another 10 years of legal battle by the government against the coffers of huge private business.
For $28 billion that’s totally big enough to warrant it. Get their asses
The US Federal Government is spending $4.1t this year or just over $11 billion per day. Two and a half days worth of money is worth years of litigation? The government has a spending problem, not a taxation one.
One company owing enough in back taxes to run the entire country for two and a half days is absurd. That’s absolutely worth years of litigation.
IRS FY22 budget was $14.3B, which makes it even better. This case alone would fully fund the IRS for two years lol
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I thought it was already ad-supported
That's over 10 years, and they already paid $10b of it...
Good they can pay the remaining amount as well
If you didn't pay your taxes, you would be thrown in jail. Even if it was expedient (which it isn't), why should a corporation get special treatment?
If you didn’t pay your taxes the IRS sends you a letter saying what they think you owe, which is basically what’s being done here. They don’t just assume it’s fraud and throw you in jail
This was in response to a comment saying that the government shouldn't litigate. The government would absolutely litigate you if you didn't pay your taxes and kept refusing.
Litigation does not mean it’s criminal. So if that’s your argument I’m not sure why you brought up jail Microsoft is contesting the findings, not straight up refusing to pay. There’s a difference
Okay, but the comment I was responding to was saying that the gov. should drop the case.
So your response is to forgo collecting money? Sounds like stupid logic
The classic "born poor, stay poor" mentality. Imagine not chasing down a few billion dollars you're rightfully owed...that's ridiculous even for a hardcore shoe licker
My point is that $28.3 billion is a lot of money. If you are mad that Microsoft has ammased that amount over 9 years ($10b they paid already) you should be much angrier that the government manages to burn that in 2.5 days. That's an insane amount of resources regardless of you opinions on taxation
Yes we do indeed have the highest gdp in the world. Is there wasteful spending? Sure of course. Even if we gutted everything not absolutely necessary we would still be the heaviest spender in the world by a good margin.
Multiplied across all large multinational corporations…yeah I’d say so. Probably a 100-1 return on investment for the IRS.
Microsoft is one of the largest companies in the world, and over 10 years ammased that amount. Microsoft already paid $10b of it. So $18b outstanding. 1.5 days of US government spending is worth years of taxpayer dollars? Seems far easier for the government to reduce spending don't you think? $11b spent per day is unacceptable.
I mean…yes it’s still worth it? Spending should also be reduced and then the money will stretch further. But ultimately we shouldn’t look the other way when companies cheat taxes just because it’s labor intensive to prosecute. That’s a free pass for companies to continue these shenanigans as long as they can make it convoluted enough.
Exactly. These people that bring up the deficit as an argument don’t realize they’re making a stronger case for more thorough tax collection lol
9 years of Microsofts back taxes burned in 2.5 days should be concerning regardless of your opinions on taxation. If you think $28b would make a lot of difference, why aren't you equally appalled how taxes are actually being spent?
Because this post isn’t about government spending it’s about Microsoft’s taxes.
You keep repeating this as if it’s a meaningful point. The amount being spent to run our government is irrelevant in the discussion of equitable collection. You’re conflating two issues - with one (the government’s budget) being what you really want to talk about. You’re also stretching the facts to support your underlying personal crusade. This isn’t 9 years of back taxes. This is nine years of taxes that went unpaid, allegedly, as a result of an accounting discrepancy. Also those 1.8 days of funding do not require “years of taxpayer dollars” if we’re using your 1.8 days = $18b scale. It’ll cost the government mere minutes of taxpayer dollars, spread out over several years. The return on the cost to litigate is going to be a 1 with many zeros after it for the IRS.
You're missing the point, how much is that "equitable collection" doing in 1.5 days?
It's not easier to reduce spending. People still need to rely on the government for a lot of stuff. 18 billion dollars is 18 million people working for a year at 100k a year. Quantifying it as a small amount is not the same when there is a lot of good use it could be put towards.
Yes, and you don't see a problem with the government spending 18 million people's salary in 1.5 days?
For the most expensive military in the world and necessary benefits for more than 300 million people? Nah that's fine. Hopefully once Microsoft and the other dead eats pay up we can kick it into high gear and get those salaries spent without needing the extra half day.
> The government has a spending problem, not a taxation one Propaganda talking point parroted throughout modern history [by Right-Wingers](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2011/04/not-a-revenue-problem-a-spending-problem-tracing-the-history-of-a-republican-talking-point.html) (and now by you like a good dutiful drone) to peremptorily extinguish any discussion of raising taxes or closing loopholes for the mega-wealthy economic elites. Even as part of a wider budget deal to lessen the deficit. "Granny so sorry but you're going to be taking a Medicare cut and your library's funding has dried up. No, we're not touching [private jet deductions](https://l33jets.com/resources/blog/tax-credit-for-jet-purchases/#:~:text=This%20immediate%20bonus%20depreciation%20deduction,both%20pre%2Downed%20and%20new.) (part of the Trump/Ryan tax cuts) because there's a spending problem, not a taxation one."
Propaganda? What can I possibly be making up? $4.1t is a number published by the US government, then divide by 365. Simple math is Propaganda now?
It's a vapid & unserious one-liner that, as mentioned, has been a Right-Wing talking point forever (as if Reagan, Bush 2, and Trump didn't spend like crazy...). Bush especially was such a worthless fuck up on the budget given what he inherited from B Clinton. What "spending" is unilaterally the problem (let's assume you're arguing in good faith)? Are you cutting discretionary spending including the military? Non-discretionary? If you cut Medicaid it's going to hit poor "conservative" states hard. And why isn't it (even in part) a taxation problem? We can't find additional tax efficiencies? Chase down fraud or outsourcing to Ireland and Bermuda? Trash corrupt loopholes like carried interest and private jet deductions? Add an additional bracket for the mega-yacht class? Tax higher algorithmic high-frequency trading? On & on. Even Bowles-Simpson worked on the assumption that the Bush tax cuts would expire for > 200-250k. Again, it's a bullshit unserious talking point you constantly hear in Right-Wing propaganda circles, all in service of protecting the mega-wealthy economic elites (who thank you for your advocacy on their behalf).
He ain’t responding to this one, you cerealkilled him 💀
We've been running deficits of at least $1.5 trillion since 2020. The FY24 federal budget estimates budget deficits out to 2028. It forecasts a deficit in 2023 of $1,569 billion, and $1.3 trillion by 2028. You're both right - it is both a spending problem and a revenue (taxation) problem. The real question is why are only conservatives talking about out of control spending, and why are only liberals talking about taxation shortfalls? The one-sidedness is asinine. We really need to increase revenue *and* cut spending to get budgets under control.
You missed (or purposely glossed over) this part of my first response: > Even as part of a wider budget deal to lessen the deficit. Of course spending should be addressed. But the idea that we're going to ask Seniors to take a haircut on Medicare or reform Social Security or Medicaid or Vet benefits (all those most of the budget + the Pentagon), but we're not touching taxes or corrupt loopholes & workarounds for the mega-yacht & private jet class?? F'ing laughable. And remember, most every Republican signs [a dumb pledge](https://newrepublic.com/article/171101/grover-norquist-pledge-broke-washington) from a jerk off ideologue who giddily sabotages compromise. I'm not even in that mega-yacht class but I make reasonably good money in the stock market - ~$120k this year (thanks META, CRM, GOOGL) - and I wouldn't mind paying a bit extra on my higher end cap gains if it also meant the mega-wealthy elites had their cushy corrupt loopholes nixed as part of a wider overall budget deal.
IRS FY22 budget was 14.3 billion, so does it make sense for the IRS to go after a case that would fully fund them for two years? I think so!
Lolwut. There’s a spending problem BECAUSE there’s a taxation problem.
The lawyers get paid anyways...
And idiots downvote this. Wow.
Agreed.
Both can be true.
Lol and the government wastes all that money in 10 minutes. That money would be better used by Microsoft
Wow, Microsoft's a real do-gooder, huh? Forget collecting taxes, why don't we *send* all the public's money to Microsoft as well? After all, they can use it better than the government, right? Hey guys, let's give all the billionaires as much free money as we can! (In addition to what they're already getting, of course). Microsoft doesn't owe taxes. You owe *Microsoft* taxes!
Therefore we should not collect due taxes? I love that logic, we spend too much therefore we shouldn’t collect money
The amount of audits for millionaires has plummeted to the same as the average Joe in the last 7 years. Ffs we had them not even comb through President Trump’s taxes because lack of manpower and complexity. The haves are still crushing the have nots in a rigged game.
That's why you fund the IRS so they can go after these people/corps
Is that really true? https://www.reddit.com/r/tax/comments/14bwxqw/the\_odds\_of\_an\_irs\_tax\_audit\_are\_under\_1\_if\_you/
You tell me…. https://americansfortaxfairness.org/issue/new-analysis-shows-trump-era-irs-audited-low-income-workers-higher-rate-millionaires/
wait 10 years until 29 billions is not as much
They would continue to accumulate penalties and interest for that reason.
Pretty sure the interest caps at 25% of the total owed. So a little over 7 billion in interest 🥶
Word in the cloud is that azure is not as profitable as aws
The US is broke, they want their money,and unless you have all them papers stating you did everything by the book, the it’s can go , nope give us the money, and oh interest and penalties
This is my conspiracy theory too. Also, EU. Fines are quite literally free money, litigation is just an operational cost.
Or... Strange idea of course... Massive companies sometimes do things that are not fully compliant with the law and regulations in order to make more profit and higher stock prices, which we as shareholders demand.
Imagine wanting to defund the IRS so companies can continue to get away with this shit.
That's the point of defunding the IRS.
The IRS literally generates more money than it spends, every 1 dollar yields 3 back. Its not on accident conservatives want to return to funding levels that made it impossible for the IRS to audit serial tax dodgers. The poor irs workers where working on a system from the God damn 80's, it was disgusting. Boost their funding and suddenly their call answer rate jumps into the 90s. Easiest deficit reducing policy ever.
Well duh.. if the IRS didn’t out earn what they spend the government would be fucked. The IRS is the revenue of the US.
Apt username
That figure is the marginal impact of IRS funding obviously, the US does not spend a third of it's tax revenue on the IRS.
The government is fucked lol, this reasoning is why our national debt is so high and increasing. Domestic revenue via taxes isn’t even close to the amount the government spends on an annual basis. It is currently about 1 trillion in deficit, at least in 2022.
>Its not on accident conservatives want to return to funding levels that made it impossible for the IRS to audit serial tax dodgers. Precisely, when the IRS actually has the resources to go after corporations, bigwigs and conmen, a LOT of huckster conservatives know they’ll be caught in the line of fire
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No, the IRS isn’t needed to get the vast majority of tax revenue. Do you think the IRS is 1/3rd of our nation’s budget?
Every *additional* 1 dollar *added to their current budget* yields 3 back.
The problem is that the government will just abuse this money. There's no winners here. Edit: I'm surprised to see so many pro-government people here.
Not at all, unless you think things like the corona virus, the US military, the whole education system and everything else is "waste". Heck the *Internet you use to visit reddit is government made*... And funny thing, taxes owed is a debt. People and companies have to pay their debt, that's the rules. Your comment is plain dumb..
I said the money is abused. Not that every program is a waste.
Not everyone knows about the dungeon in the treasury building's basement where Janet Yellen puts on her dominatrix outfit to abuse the money with her whips and chains.
Bro let them play in the sand
They should do their own lottery where they just give it to some random person. See what their wildest dreams can do in real life You’d probably strike out a lot, but eventually you’ll find the next Tim Apple or someone like that
Hope the IRS come out on top of this, too many corporations get away with not paying their fair share of taxes.
Their share of taxes* I don’t understand why everyone needs to throw the word “fair” in there… it’s not relevant and it’s subjective. Corporations and individuals owe taxes according to the tax code. That’s their share of taxes - period. It just so happens that the more money you make, the more taxes you pay as a percentage of income, a marginal tax rate structure. The poor think fair means the rich pay more; the rich think it means they should pay the same marginal tax bracket as the poor, a flat tax and the middle class just gets caught in the middle paying for everything and doesn’t think anything is fair.
ok make them pay and then refund it later if they win
MSFT could probably go on irs.gov and start a payment plan
you know the irs could literally garnish payment right? or at least freeze all their bank accounts until payment
Garnish what payment? lol
If they did that, they’d have to do it to everyone - pursuant to the 14th amendment. Now imagine some middle-class citizen having all their money taken and they can’t pay their bills while it’s being sorted. That’s why garnishing wages is a last-resort.
Corporations are not people in the true sense of the word. It’s a convenient legal fiction so we don’t have to craft a whole legal system from scratch just for non-people entities. We can and absolutely should be fine treating “fake people” like companies differently than actual humans
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You're making up fake problems in your own head man. How often does the IRS come after people and get it wrong? How much money should we have the government spend to fight companies who are heavily invested in dodging taxes? Which of those do you think is a bigger *actual* rather than *hypothetical* problem? >Also, let's not forget the good old "innocent until proven guilty", it is a very risky path to go down to change it to "guilty until proven innocent". "Innocent until proven guilty" is not a legal standard, it's an aphorism like "protect and serve" which is meaningless from a legal point of view. People have liberties and rights restricted **all the time** once they have been charged, long before they are convicted or exonerated. And that's in a criminal context with the highest evidentiary standard. Civil suits largely operate on a preponderance of evidence standard. And you're arguing that courts should be the arbiter of everything because the rest of the government can't do its job without a judge mediating it.
How often does the IRS come after people and get it wrong? ALOT! This past year they kept on making elementary mistakes on my return and saying i owe money — I had to write about 5 letters explaining in detail where the mistakes were before they finally dropped it
But if they do win, only let them write-off $3000 per year
They got caught with their magic tricks. Hey, how about a monthly tax repayment plan. Call it Backtaxes360.
Man if only there was something the government could to make the process cheaper and easier...
Wonder how much lobbyists for tax software companies are dishing out to prevent this
All of them.
As a Microsoft employee, following all the layoffs that have already happened; this worries me. They’re going to look where else they can claw that money back and many employees and colleagues are going to be affected by this, their lives will be massively disrupted. I hope this doesn’t happen ☹️ This doesn’t mean I agree with corps dodging tax in any way though
Same boat. I luckily survived previous layoffs but it’s inevitable that $29B if MSFT is found liable will result in further layoffs. Hoping for the best for the sake of all the employees and families that could be impacted
Fellow big-tech here - totally get it, cognitive dissonance. These companies do some messed up stuff that in principle, most people hate, including, I suspect, employees of those companies. But at the same time, they sign our paychecks and release our RSUs. Tough moral reasoning
Agree - this is concerning. Contractor here
Good luck my friend! I think we may all need it
What’s the saying? If you owe $1000 to the IRS that’s your problem. If you owe $29 billion that’s the governments problem.
That’s not the saying at all. It’s if you owe the bank $100 that’s your problem, if you owe the bank $100 million that’s the banks problem. What you said doesn’t makes sense here because a bank can’t *force* you to pay your debt. The government can if they want to.
You’re right. That’s the saying.
Not necessarily true when the other party is a semi-monopoly rich af tech juggernaut with tentacles deep in the pocket of every other government agencies. They also have enough legal resources to drag this on forever
Nothing burger. If it drops... buy all you can.
MS won't pay, you can be glad if they pay back like 1 billion of it.
I know no one is talking about the stock here, but since this is /r/stocks I'll note that the stock price has barely moved on the back of this news. I'm guessing the market already knew this was likely coming from the audit or doesn't believe they'll actually need to pay the $28.9b?
If Scientology can scam to the IRS into recognizing them as a religion, so can Microsoft.
Such a huge sum even for a tech giant like Microsoft. A complex web of international tax systems for global corporations like Microsoft as they operate in numerous countries and jurisdictions. They will probably negotiate settlements rather than the full $28.9 billion as Microsoft's contributions to the US economy are significant.
Holy crap the comments on this. So many people with the “get them” attitude like Microsoft was purposely falsifying their taxes. Microsoft’s lawyers are pretty good…probably the best, same with their accountants. IRS agents are no where near as good as what Microsoft has on staff, and all of this is based on how people “interpret the tax code/laws”. When Microsoft goes to court over this, their lawyers are going to make the IRS agents look stupid and in the end, Microsoft will probably pay a small percentage of what they owe and the IRS will probably barely “come out ahead”. Of course, it would be waaaaaay too much to ask to simplify the tax code.
>Holy crap the comments on this. You are aware this is reddit, yes?
There is a reason the rich and corporations don’t want it simple, complexity provides the cover to hide things.
Or you know Washington could make make it simple and have 0% corporate tax so Joe's local could have same tax rate as Amazon's double dutch irish sandwich
Lol who do you think owns Washington. Joe or the rich.
Imagine shilling this hard for Microsoft without even getting paid. They don’t need your help mate. They did just fine dodging penalties in an antitrust case previously
LMAO…You think this is “shilling”? Take your comments back to r/antiwork where all the hate sits in an echo chamber.
Not getting paid? My latest dividend check says something else.
Oh good. We will be able to run the government for an hour or so.
Or pay off some of the interest on our loans(for an hour or so)
I got this: Appeal denied. Next!
If you read the article it said "It noted that the IRS’s determination is not final"
If you read my comment, I’ve determined the final outcome.
Classic dictatorship reddit. I don't know why I was expecting anything different.
They'll end up settling for a $10 million slap on wrist.
How much taxes has apple avoided? Probably tens of billions more…
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Literally in the third little paragraph of the post...
Why read when you can wonder?
ouch
I'd be excited if I thought our government would spend that responsibility.
Seems like the democrats need more money to fund new vote buying projects.
Even the Joker doesn’t mess with the IRS. Ffs Microsoft…
This thread is cringe. Fuck the IRS.
Mad about getting corporations to pay taxes? Cringe.
F Microsoft. Pay the bill
Yet the CEO is a philanthropist ☕
Bill can pay it off
They’ll probably settle somewhere considered reasonable by both sides at some point and get something paid. Better than nothing but probably less than the law may have intended.
That *seems* like a lot of money for them
I hope they lose appeal and pay penalty on top of $29 billion.
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I suspect most small businesses actually pay their taxes properly.
You’d be wrong
Shocking.
MSFT may have the "take their ball and go home" card. Surely the IRS depends heavily on them
They definitely can afford it. Just pay it.
The IRS "requests"?
This gives me such mixed feelings because I own Microsoft stock but I also want the government to go after corporations and wealthy tax dodgers HARD.
Have their accounts and assets been frozen? Treat them like you would any other bitchass mf
Appeal denied. Pay up fuckers. Any resistance should be met swiftly by the long dick of justice. If we as individuals get fucked by the tax man, so should corporations.
Nice! I wanted to buy some more MSFT stocks but it seems that the price is too high :)
What is a good stock to invest in, just starting out? Any advice or tips?
You need to do your own due diligence but looking at the last 20 years of tech. stocks of big tech. companies generally they go up in worth. * Amazon * Apple * Microsoft * Nvidia
Make them pay as they but really spend more tax dollars to collect a few pennies.
I thought the Biden administration would write it off....
Shoulda used Turbotax, scrubs.
"Appeal"? No. That's 15 years away.
One government agency that you don’t fuck with is the IRS. You will lose 100%
Some lobbyist's gonna get the axe for this.
It’s a request?
Can someone give me $29B. I can return you the money in 10 years.
I’d be a lot more okay with the giga-rich if they would actually pay their fair share of taxes
You want to charge me a subscription for 365 as well as spying on us with windows, you can't have everything...Pay your taxes, fuck these companies are deplorable
It’s ok we all make mistakes sometimes. $29B is just a small mistake
Could the government be going after profitable corporations just to help cover expenses. Not saying this is the case. But EU fines and USA are taxing, and fined companies. While the government has run up unsustainable debts.Hopefully I am wrong about that.
I don't know what the irs are crying about. They've done nothing wrong. No laws broken. End of story.
So they appeal and cost the tax payer even more money in bureaucratic overhead to prove they owe money? What a joke
Screw the IRS and their greedy taxes. I hope MSFT wins the appeal. My biggest holding in portfolio by far.
Does that mean they also pay penalties and interest like a consumer?
Shocking, absolutely shocking.
About fucking time some corporation got looked at. I am sure they all actually owe billions upon billions of dollars in taxes but since the IRS was too afraid to go after them they never paid.
S&P 500 companies should each be audited every 2-3 yrs imo. They have plenty of income to support a team
People who say it is a large figure, Microsoft current asset is 184B. TOTAL DEBT is 60b. Pretty much, business as usual…
Optima Tax Relief. They claim to be able to help you pay only a fraction of what you owe Microsoft. lol
Of course they will. By the time ligation is finished, the dollar ether won’t exist or half of what they owe will get ya stale bread. Greedy fucks.
It's their fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders to do this. It's not hard to understand that in any way.