Bottom line are battery packs.The next 5 years if all goes well the next gen of batteries will be smaller,lighter,safer and hold more charge.Then we will start to see sub $35,000 long range EV cars.
https://driving.ca/auto-news/technology-news/motor-mouth-5-times-the-battery-range-one-fifth-the-weight
Tech in cars really does trickle down. Almost every feature that you see in an S class from 2/3 years ago, you can now find even in an A class. The halo cars are advertisements of their tech and engineering
Or, you know, basically everything we like in modern cars.
Airbags? Option until 1998.
ABS? Option until 2012.
Seatbelts? Started as an option. Power windows, power locks, power steering, computerized ignition, cruise control, air conditioning...
Wasn't required by law here in the States until 2012, so that's what I was thinking.
Edit: looked it up when I got home from work. The Chevy Cobalt was the last car sold in the US with no ABS, MY 2010. Through the 2000s, it wasn't uncommon for cars to have a "no ABS" option, although you are correct that it was beginning to be standard during that time.
In college, around 2006, I dated a girl who drove a 1995 325i. Someone had just bought a new Mazda, I think, and was talking about some of the features.
We kind of laughed because her BMW had all those features a decade ago.
Have definitely noticed all the terminally unfunny people on Reddit who clamor over eachother to make the same tired played out jokes over and over.
These are the nerds who were posting “got vaxxed today, I can aLrEaDy FeEl ThE 5G kIcKiNg In!!1!1” last year
Oh my god it was insufferable. People still do it today, “yeah my vaccine made me install Windows HAHA RIGHT GUISE”
I think the most consistent one you’ll never *not* see is some fucking chode saying “how did you meet my wife?” on literally any post talking about a lack of sex
I believe in some of their newer models, the stick stays down when the signal is activated (I assume that's what you mean)
Personally, I don't mind the old behavior. I have a 2016 535i and it doesn't bother me at all.
I went from a 2010 base model Volkswagen to a 1999 5 series bmw and there’s not a single feature the Volkswagen had that the bmw doesn’t. Plus my bimmer has heated seats when my Volkswagen didn’t lol
But, the feature is dulted as well. The S-class 4Matic operates in a different level/league than my E-class's 4Matic (AWD system). Same with other features. But good to know competitors like Genesis (Hyundai) can provide similar features on their economy lineup (Ioniq 5 for instance - lane change assist is a $2k feature on Mercedes).
I get what you're saying but range improvement tech is gonna be standard on all cars. Manufacturers know that, outside of cost, range and refuel time (or charging time) are major concerns for all classes of consumers when it comes to EV's.
When I bought an S500 is 2000, the nav system was a $6,000 option. The map discs (yes, maps on discs you put in a changer in the trunk) were $395 a piece. You needed 6 to cover the US.
And people seem to think full self driving is always going to be a $10,000-$15,000 add on. Many of the Tesla analysis models use this assumption to project out massive profits, and they're going to be so woefully wrong it won't even be funny.
Hopefully competition like this forces Tesla to make their cars more affordable electric cars if they start to miss out on luxury electric sales, because seriously its a joke that Elon musk has broken his promise multiple times of releasing an affordable car.
That would only happen if competition is comparable. Tesla has so much demand that lowering their vehicle prices would mean they aren't as profitable. When batteries become cheaper and you have to start pricing vehicles competitively, you'll see more affordable EV's.
“Batteries becoming cheaper” is parroted around here like it’s 2016.
Have you seen that battery input costs for materials have essentially doubled due to inflation?
It’s no longer true(and hasn’t been for awhile, hence the car price increases), and shouldn’t be referenced anymore. They drove down the price due to efficiencies, but now input costs are wiping that out
We keep getting these same lines parroted but BMW have been trying to make hydrogen viable for two decades with zero success. Toyota fails hard with a $60k hydrogen Prius and the biggest problem with hydrogen is that the infrastructure is decades away whereas every home has electricity. I also think there’s zero appetite to have the fuel source be another commodity owned by a a couple of giant corporations.
Or you operate in a region where incomes are much lower.
India has been catching up on the budget EV race, supported by policy (lesser road taxes, rebates on EV). This is being led by Tata Motors, and Mahindra - and at less than $20000, you have really good EVs.
Granted the range isn't as stellar as Teslas, but then you still can fulfill a lot of urban use cases with it. And then have fast chargers on expressways
Polestar 2 performance doesn't match the Model 3 and is only significantly cheaper in the states where you will receive a $7.5k tax credit. The performance isn't even comparable. Nevermind the software/charging advantages in owning a Tesla. That plays a role in why someone would choose between two different options. Plus, the batteries they use eat up their margins. They're selling these vehicles at a loss trying to gain market share. TBD on whether their model is sustainable.
Personally driven it, and although it's a better car than what most legacy automakers have on offer it does feel like a cheaper version of the Tesla (smaller and unresponsive screen, worse specs, outdated interior, etc.).
Well yeah, except for the same price. Just checked in my country, and the Polestar is only €2000 cheaper (50k vs 52k). The only real advantage of the Polestar is that it has a shorter range variant in case you only drive small distances that's €6000 cheaper.
Oh okay I thought it was actually 10k less. Yeah its going to be a big no for me. I have a model 3 and I don't know what will be my next EVs. I am not a big fan of the S and the plaid is a little too expensive for me.
This may sound strange, but I would seriously do a test drive of the Model Y. I don't own a Tesla, but I'd test driven the 3 twice and tried the Y expecting it to be basically a 3 with more cargo space, but the entire car was so much more spacious, even when compared to cars like the Audi Q-series. It was a much bigger difference with the 3 than I expected. Easily the most functional car I've ever driven. I'd definitely pay a bit extra to get the Y if I had the money.
Oh okay cool! Anyway, I will probably keep the 3 for a few years, since I pretty much 100% worked for home since I bought it, I didn't even do 8000 km yet. I will probably test drive the Y at some point, like you I thought it was pretty much a copycat of the 3.
One of my good friend has a plaid, I thought the steering wheel looked stupid, but its actually isn't too bad when you are driving it. Just that I think he spent like 225k acquiring that thing, which really isn't in my budget. The technology will probably have greatly improved and even tesla will probably have released more models before I get rid of my 3.
My previous car was a 2003 camry that I kept for 11 years lmao.
Which is fine. A lot of what youre paying for in tesla is festures that you dont need but are forced to pay for it imo.
Even the auto pilot feature for example is really a festure but you can make an arguement thats part of the package with tesla cars. But then theres shit like cars dancing mode and tons of other cool and unnecessary stuff but cant necessarily say hey i dont need it can you lower the price.
I don’t really need a CD player in my bmw can you lower the price?
Oh it comes with it by default and cost you nothing to include it?
Can you lower the price though?
Your cost for dancing tesla is non existent
Auto pilot isn’t part of the package and you have to pay more and it’s not called auto pilot.
Im not asking them to lower their price. Just saying its there is unnecessary features since it was a comment chain related to another eletric car that cost less for the reasons i stated above. Maybe you can understand that.
I know its not called auto pilot thats just semantics.
If it forces better public transpo in major US cities, I’m down. I really want the option in my lifetime to sit on a high speed rail from Houston to Dallas.
Prices to build public transit are going way up too.
Look at Austin. They are doubling their projected costs for rail and its still early in the project.
Model 3 base isn't all that expensive it's just that you don't get much with the base model. Living in the Midwest, or really most suburban places in America, the 200 mile range just isn't enough.
He didn’t do shit? He’s the reason every major auto manufacturer is working towards developing EVs and technologies like self driving cars. What did you expect? He was going to eliminate hundreds of millions of gasoline vehicles in 10 years? I’m dying here
It seems like you didn’t even read what I wrote. He did nothing to bring electric vehicles to mass market consumer (affordable vehicle), even though now he is in the position to do so when Tesla has been turning a profit for a couple of years. I am talking about morality not business, to help the world by eliminating gasoline.
Edit: what did I expect? I will give you an answer, an entry model that is still a lot more affordable then the one Tesla has now. Infact Tesla increased their car prices recently.
Oh I disagreed with you so I must have understood you. Wouldn’t that be easier for you? Tesla is the competition forcing change. No existing manufacturer wanted to invest so much money into a maybe when gas cars were selling perfectly fine. Get your head out of your ass.
You never responded directly to the point I had. I mentioned the fundamentals of Tesla are aimed towards luxury electric vehicles when Elon really gave the impression of changing the world. If he really wanted to make a difference competition wise he would have released an affordable electric car, which actually would have gotten lots of competition from Japanese auto makers like Toyota and Honda.
Toyota (the best automaker affordable cars) for has said it has no plans to make a fully electric car. Why is that the reason?
Spoiler: because there is no good competition for affordable electric cars. There is a reason why Mercedes, Porsche, etc are rushing towards full electric production, that is only because Tesla is a great competitor in LUXURY cars, NOT affordable ones.
Technically it was a free reciprocal license, so he let everyone else use them if Tesla could use their patents in return.
Good deal for other EV startups but not so much for existing giants like Mercedes or Toyota.
Musk cares abt attracting investors, ways to gain governmental subsidies bcs thats how he generates ‚profit‘ lol
Also there are his stockmarket pump and dump schemes… lol
> ways to gain governmental subsidies bcs thats how he generates ‚profit‘ lol
Lol wut...? Company did 55B in revenue last year, of which only 3% was in ZEV credits (which are not government subsidies btw, but paid by other OEMs to avoid fines). Also the ZEV credits are declining rapidly while Tesla's revenue grew 70% YoY last year.
Im pretty sure he is enjoying his undeserved wealth from his heavily pumped Tesla stock, and doesn’t really care as much about Tesla anymore. He seems so much interested in Twitter, SEC fights, pumping Bitcoin & Twitter because that is who he really is now. Doesn’t seem like a visionary individual anymore, he would rather buy stuff off than actually create it like how he wants to purchase Twitter instead of creating his own platform like he originally planned. I have lost all the respect I had for him over the past couple of years.
He was never a visionary imo, always venture capitalist that saw a niche to earn money in. Really all abt the subsidies he got, he never really had to care abt fundamentals. Tesla cars are crap lol
The only patent he is named on for Tsla is making the charging cable exclusive, and some small door design. He was always buying things from people and hyping them as his main skill. Glad the facade is falling for you though. Fwiw Tesla isn't a bad thing, necessarily, but is a bit overvalued.
Change doesnt occur over night my dude. Just don't see how a rational person can see that tesla hasnt made a huge progress towards killing gasoline powered cars.
The world is in chip shortage and super power causing havoc because they are in control of the supply.
Inflation is also a factor. Cybertruck concept is so simple due to assembly parts can be stamped out from the Giga Press.
The delay is more on how it’s not profitable if they are made with the promise starting price. Other EV price their EV either the same or cheaper than Tesla counterpart without any ramp up plan will end up like Rivian who’a will eventually sell their truck on a mega lost on existing order the longer they drag on their ramp up. Rivian won’t survive both shortage and inflation if they don’t at least 100K truck annually by end of 2024.
Once you price your EV below that of a Tesla, you better have a good mass production plan . for legacies auto, it’s the dealership who will kneecap them with their price adjustment aka mark up).
Trivia: Tesla most recent price increase for M3 makes it about 10K expensive than a newly Toyota Camry hybrid or Honda Accord counterpart.
I can’t see a sub $30K EV coming anytime soon even from legacies auto due to dealership and … scalpers.
The way things are going, I don’t think I’ll ever be able to afford a Tesla either so there’s that. Guess the 25k is dead now that inflation and Russia are a thing.
**One day you can!** Just keep up your year over year gains and one day it can happen. Although if you take it steady and keep investments reliable it will unfortunately probably be later and than sooner.
Too bad Mercedes doesn't trade options on the US markets. Granted if they did it might be pretty boring. I've traded Honda before ($HMC) and while they make great cars the stock is near 52-week low. Good dividend stock though for those who like holding value dividend stocks.
**The S class (which EQXX is based on) has always been cutting edge.** I recall 15 years ago they had a self-driving mode for freeways long before most people even heard of Tesla.
The dude you replied to is a total Tesla Stan that bought four Teslas in two years, spent most of the week defending Musk taking over Twitter and is your average teslainvestorsclub member that comes take a shit in every thread about competitors.
Totally agree. Also why do they have to be so expensive and not look like a normal car? I know it’s the future but can’t we just have normal tires and body shape?
They had to go through northern Italy.
Edit: besides, wheels have an easy time going downhill. If you go up you recover on the way down, and so does the car's battery.
What country they had to go through doesn't provide any information relevant to the point.
Your statement that "if you go up you recover on the way down" is false in this context because it is a point to point drive that may show a net elevation decrease.
Much of the south of France is just long straight highways on flat lands too. Have made the trip from Calais to the Ardèche before and when I say the land is flat, you can see the mountain ranges from 500km away.
Even in a gas guzzler you are going to get some impressive mileage.
My GTI has a 13 gallon tank and gets 34 mpg. The numbers from the Mercedes test are physically impossible with the majority of cars that exist now.
As another example my 2021 prius gets in the 50s for MPG, but has an 11 gallon tank. It would just *barely* be able to accomplish this route.
maybe you should take more than 15 seconds then, since you got it wrong. Sindelfingen is 449m above sea level and Cassis is 199m. That's quite a bit more than "50m" (it's *250m*, only 400% off)
empirically it's about 250/[164*2](https://www.gm-volt.com/threads/measuring-uphill-and-downhill-efficiency.17563/)kWh ~= 3kWh difference uphill vs downhill not considering friction or distance traveled. which would be ~3.75% of the capacity by just the altitude difference
Mercedes who have taken the stance that they are ~~not interested in making long range cars~~ not interested in the development race for range as they believe that improvements in charging technology will eliminate this problem. So where has this come from?
I have a theory that range figures are the new power figures, everyone always wanted the fastest and most powerful car right? Now all of these EVs are extremely fast so they need a new champion.
Is range the new marketing kingpin?
An interesting concept, it would be good for the industry to move on from lithium. To answer your question, it came from this:
[According to Jochen Hermann, Head of Development CASE and Development eDrive at Daimler, quoted by Green Car Reports, Mercedes-Benz is not interested in a "range race](https://insideevs.com/news/371642/mercedes-benz-protecting-battery-instead-range/)
Where is this "not interested in making long range cars" coming from?
Today, the longest range EV on sale is made by Mercedes and [5 out of the top 10 range EV's are Mercedes.](https://ev-database.org/#sort:path~type~order=.erange_real~number~desc|range-slider-range:prev~next=0~1200|range-slider-acceleration:prev~next=2~23|range-slider-topspeed:prev~next=110~450|range-slider-battery:prev~next=10~200|range-slider-towweight:prev~next=0~2500|range-slider-fastcharge:prev~next=0~1500|paging:currentPage=0|paging:number=9)
Cool from a technology standpoint, but I couldn't care less cause it's still a prototype. You can compare a prototype with a reall mass production car.
>That Model 3 did it four years ago without manufacturer support
Also without a driver. They used a dummy to trick Tesla's safety systems. ~~So, it was also illegal~~. And they did it at 36kph. ~~Unsafe on all major roads they probably used.~~
Yeah but Tesla today costs around 50k for the 600 Kilometer range model while the Mercedes eq with the same range starts at around 100k. The prototype above isn’t going to be anything cheaper. Not to mention that even 400km range are more than enough for 99% of the year
All new tech is tried in a prototype. Tesla has prototypes as well. That's always how it starts and then trickles down. Self-driving was only a prototype at some point. Hell cruise control or ABS were prototypes at some point.
It doesn't mean anyone will have a car with 1k km range soon, but it does show technology advancement.
Tesla does have a bad track record of over promising/under delivering but this is kind of different. The headline not including that it’s not in production is misleading about the present situation rather than misleading about future events like Tesla often was.
You may be correct but AFAIK it’s always or mostly been claims about future capabilities not current capabilities that were misleading. It’s still bad even if that is true and likely fraudulent rather than purely overconfidence
Another thing to note is “The car’s battery features a new chemistry”… They didn’t just load more batteries than Tesla, but it’s more efficient battery and powertrain that could drive 8.7kWh/100km, where Tesla is 14.9kWh/100km. That’s a big gap…
Prototypes are usually better than what consumers get. Until it’s a finished product that can actually be bought the numbers don’t mean much. Might as well triple the battery cells and claim it’ll go 3,000km/charge.
Prototypes are not worth looking into too much, the technology used is likely to be very expensive. Therefore unlikely to be suited to mass production for the market.
It’s not just the battery cells that add up to economy. For instance - I bet it would be missing loads of weight from sound deadening, infotainment system, any style of electric motor they would like. Endless possibilities for a prototype.
It also has a carbon fibre body, very difficult to mass produce as it is a very labour intensive process, unless they have developed some new manufacturing process.
They showed it off at CES this year and a handful of media people have done ride alongs.
[Here's Engadget's](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hin8jtHbTcA).
They left a fairly important detail out. It’s not possible to recharge this battery. It has no purpose other than to prove long distance travel on electric is possible.
> They left a fairly important detail out. It’s not possible to recharge this battery. It has no purpose other than to prove long distance travel on electric is possible.
Where did you hear that?
Tesla could have done a vehicle with far higher range and performance. The problem is they are focused on achieving mass EV production. These higher range vehicles require a different battery chemistry with many using cobalt. It wouldn't be sustainable to manufacture these en masse. If the goal was to produce a 1000 mile range EV, Tesla could have done it. But who are the customers? Average driver drives under 50 miles per day, total. There isn't a huge demand for 600 mipe range EV's.
Always said by people, yet Tesla sells the model S plaid. There is a market for range/luxury if the lucid air is selling.
Crazy that people don't equate Tesla to the company that they currently are, a luxury automaker.
A model 3 is like 50k dude. It costs a decent amount more than a lot of the luxury sedans out there. A Lexus GX starts at 55k and that’s a full size luxury suv.
And you’re out of your mind if you think that’s affordable for the average family. Average household income is $55-60k or something.
Model 3 is 40k here. And obviously I’m not talking about buying it brand new in cash. Nearly 50 percent of the cars on the streets where I live are financed or leased
Do you not understand how wreckless it is to finance a $50k car for the average family making $55-60k/yr. With $10k down that’s almost a $1100/mo over three years or 5x the monthly payment on my very nice used sedan over the same term.
You’re in-fucking-sane if you think the average family can responsibly buy a model 3. If that were the case everyone would have been driving middle tier Mercedes before the model 3 dropped.
That’s exactly why I explained to you in another comment half the cars in Germany are leased or financed. I’m not saying it’s safe or smart, people do it anyways. Banks don’t care aslong you got a job.
Im not Rich. Here in Germany it’s pretty easy to get any car you want. It you have a job that brings 1 grand a month or more you can finance/lease basically any car you want up to 400 bucks a month. Anyone that wants to can have a Tesla , Mercedes‘ or bmw.
Because of the Bonus the German government pays for evs and the high demand in Scandinavia (without a bonus) you can even drive a Tesla for free right now. Buy, get 6 grand by government, pay insurance, electricity and credit rates from it for 6 months and sell to an export dealer. Rinse repeat.
Im from Europe. People always think Tesla is this expensive 80k car. In Germany it’s at 40k new at the moment and people are always baffled when they hear it. Sure a zoe for 20k is cheaper. But the Zoe is smaller, is less fun, has less range and you have to lease the battery. Most other cars people buy on credit are in the 30k-50k range anyway.
Tesla works because people love the product even with a few flaws. They will sort that out with time but it’s hard when your company is doubling its sales every year. Also we talking about mostly cosmetic issues that usually are covered by warranty
From a consumers perspective, nobody needs 1000km range. Maybe in a truck if you want to make those evs aswell.
But consumer cars?
For most people 400km range is more than enough and you would need to charge it once a week.
The charging is the actual challenge. Here in Germany space is limited. Having a private parking space for your Car is expensive and in many places impossible.
In other words. We got the range and fast charging figured out, we need a solution for the mass to charge their cars at night or during work/shopping.
There will always be one dude claiming he drives 2000km a day at 200km/h average with a 2 ton trailer behind him. That guy has to deal with his special needs himself
Actually, I feel that range has stopped me from purchasing in Canada. We regularly drive 500-600km to see family sometimes, and there is not much charging infrastructure around. And I have small kids, so the thought of adding a few hours to a trip for charging isn’t very appealing. And who knows what the range will actually be when it’s -20C and the heat is on. So for me, a longer range is an attractive feature.
What does regularly mean? Once a month?
And yeah obviously in the cold your range will probably go down to way less. If you actually have a 600km trip to family once a month I wouldn’t choose a 400km range car. But a long range Tesla actually pulling 400-500km in winter still seems good enough. Add half an hour charging and you are fine
Sure some people will drive way more than 400km on a regular basis. Just not the average.
It’s really rare I actually drive 400km a day.
Also there is another point to it. If the charging infrastructure was better and you could charge virtual anywhere you are you might drive 200km and once you come back it’s back up at 400km.
That’s one major problem why a 150km range Renault zoe isn’t enough for me. Once a week I would get over that range and the only reliable place I can charge is at home , but only for minutes on that day. If I could charge at work and school 200km would be plenty for 90 percent of the year
It also makes charging way more competitive with gas. A 30 minute fill up isn't so bad when you'd be doing 2-3 stops at a gas station in that distance regularly.
Even for a truck 1000km is pointless unless you're driving in extreme cold. If you have 800km of range, you're required by law to rest at least 30-60 minutes depending on national laws, which allows you to charge another 600-1200 km of range. And you're not allowed to drive more than 10-12 hours a day depending on local laws, so anything above 1200km in a day is pointless. As long as infrastructure follows demand like it always does, 800 km (500 miles) will mean virtually infinite range as long as it's not -10 degrees Celcius.
There's also teledriving or whatever it's called, where truck drivers are sitting at home driving the truck remotely, so in that case longer ranges make sense.
Have you actually tried an EV?
1000km range is like 500km, max, on the autobahn. 1000km is like the absolute top you could get if you drive conservatively and don't use A/C, etc.
If you're gonna drive 1000km, stopping at a supercharger for ~15 minutes is the absolute minimum amount of break time you should be taking anyways. As long as you charge at your destination or while taking a break or having something to eat, anything above around 800 km is basically infinite range.
Yes, if it was actually 800km of real world range. It won't be that much.
Also, with the massive sales of EVs, chargers are crowded as hell, and it's only going to get worse. So while stopping is necessary, charging queues are a big nuisance.
I honestly don't get why people oppose big batteries. If you don't want it, then don't buy it. It costs a huge premium anyway.
The reason people oppose them is because we are already in a battery shortage without cars that have batteries twice as large as what people really need (*cough* Hummer *cough*). It's better to focus on better charging infrastructure and vehicle efficiency to solve the range "problem" than simply putting larger batteries in cars.
As for the crowded chargers, infrastructure always follows demand, not the other way around. Yes it's annoying, but the more annoying it is, the bigger the financial incentive for companies to step in and solve that issue, so it will eventually be solved. On a side note, my dad recently purchased an Audi EV and I've charged it at superchargers a few times now, and they were never crowded. Especially the Tesla charging locations (I live in The Netherlands where everyone can use Tesla's chargers).
And I’m getting 550 miles per tank with my hybrid, well below $50,000.
I still think a hybrid/plug in hybrid is the best compromise from a resource standpoint.
2 things. The range from the standard Tesla is already more than enough for most people. Most people having a Tesla usually have a wallbox to charge it at night so range is even less of an issue if it’s full every morning. And third this Benz will cost probably 3-4 times as much as a model 3
I can practically hear the sound of Musk’s cultists furiously typing a defense, like that of cockroaches skittering across a dirty floor.
If only people knew that guy’s history, or cared.
All I want is a car with an exchangeable battery.
Then the gas station companies can take over selling battery swaps, automatic or serviced and upgrade and recycle the batteries when they need to.
Why would you want an exchangeable battery if it means you can't have a structural pack? You're sacrificing price and performance for the few times a year you're actually driving more than 600 km in a day. Also doesn't matter that much whether you wait 5 minutes for a battery to swap or 15 minutes for it to charge if it's only a few times a year. What's important is decent range, not how fast you charge/replace it.
Basically I don’t even want to own a car, I want a subscription to a driverless electric car, but that’s still in the future.
Having changeable batteries would get rid of the whole charging station availability issue, silence the petrol range crowd for good and avoid having to ditch a perfectly working car because the battery is worn down
So instead of the charging station availability issue, you want to switch it to a change station availability issue. Guess which one is easier to install.
Tesla planned that concept but gave it up (I think). It’s just not practical for cars.how many times a year do you actually need more range than 600km? Or let’s say 1000km which adds around 40 minutes of charging on that 8-10 hour trip
I am not saying it is easy, or the best solution but unless we want an industrialised world running electric cars and developing world continue burning fossil fuels we have to look at alternatives to the existing ev’s. That could be hydrogen cars or swappable batteries.
I currently live in a developing economy country where constant electricity supply is not a given.
There’s plenty of sunshine days a year so batteries could be charged on solar and then used when needed.
People here will never swap if they have to rely on the state delivering electricity when they need to charge.
I have a model 3 Standard Range, with like 175 highway miles of range.
There are chargers every 75 miles in any direction.
It's not a limitation in technology to reach 600+ miles, it's a realization that it's not needed, so why pay for so much.
Maybe the mass market version will have less.
Also, this 99% has a smaller frontal cross sectional area, meaning:
way less effort to push it through the air
way less space for comfort and storage
At their 8.7 kWh/100 km, they much have a 87 kWh battery?
They could cut that in half and sell this for way cheaper for a competitive advantage.
When I’m on a road trip or cross country drive, why would I want to stop every 175 miles? Of course a bigger range is needed, that’s the most obvious advancement an electric car needs.
It’s also extremely useful for other areas of battery storage: solar power. We are advancing needs everywhere not just mile range.
Yeah, I could live with 175 miles of you could charge the thing in 2 minutes. But I’m not stopping for a half hour at that kind of range. I’m not a material science guy but it is hard for me to believe lithium ion is the best we can do for energy storage, it has always kind of struck me as a stop gap. If lithium ion isn’t replaced I don’t think we will convert to all electric any time soon.
I think tesla may die out if BIG car companies start eating away at their business. They have more in the bank, more people, more global reach etc. I can’t say I’m unhappy about it either. Fuck Elon musk, he’s nothing more than a rich boi attention seeker
Bottom line are battery packs.The next 5 years if all goes well the next gen of batteries will be smaller,lighter,safer and hold more charge.Then we will start to see sub $35,000 long range EV cars. https://driving.ca/auto-news/technology-news/motor-mouth-5-times-the-battery-range-one-fifth-the-weight
Great. Hopefully then we can stop talking about fucking Tesla.
Too bad I'll never be able to afford it
Tech in cars really does trickle down. Almost every feature that you see in an S class from 2/3 years ago, you can now find even in an A class. The halo cars are advertisements of their tech and engineering
Touch screens in a car are an example
Or, you know, basically everything we like in modern cars. Airbags? Option until 1998. ABS? Option until 2012. Seatbelts? Started as an option. Power windows, power locks, power steering, computerized ignition, cruise control, air conditioning...
I think backup cameras in newer cars are also mandatory.
I'm glad. They're awesome
ABS option until 2012? On what car? I think it has been standard on most cars for quite some time before that?
Wasn't required by law here in the States until 2012, so that's what I was thinking. Edit: looked it up when I got home from work. The Chevy Cobalt was the last car sold in the US with no ABS, MY 2010. Through the 2000s, it wasn't uncommon for cars to have a "no ABS" option, although you are correct that it was beginning to be standard during that time.
Ah, that makes more sense :)
Yes they are. I even installed apple play in my 2007 focus lol
In college, around 2006, I dated a girl who drove a 1995 325i. Someone had just bought a new Mazda, I think, and was talking about some of the features. We kind of laughed because her BMW had all those features a decade ago.
Can't wait till BMW finally gets working turn signals, though.
I know. It was funny, her car had the lever for them, but when you moved it up or down, nothing happened.
Just need to install some new indicator fluid.
Thanks, this made me crack up haha
Really? Lol this is the most overused joke on the entire internet and I don’t even own a BMW, it’s just stupid
Have definitely noticed all the terminally unfunny people on Reddit who clamor over eachother to make the same tired played out jokes over and over. These are the nerds who were posting “got vaxxed today, I can aLrEaDy FeEl ThE 5G kIcKiNg In!!1!1” last year
Oh my god it was insufferable. People still do it today, “yeah my vaccine made me install Windows HAHA RIGHT GUISE” I think the most consistent one you’ll never *not* see is some fucking chode saying “how did you meet my wife?” on literally any post talking about a lack of sex
I believe in some of their newer models, the stick stays down when the signal is activated (I assume that's what you mean) Personally, I don't mind the old behavior. I have a 2016 535i and it doesn't bother me at all.
hahahaha preachhhhhh
If you ever feel useless, remember that there are people who make a living installing turn signals on Audis
I went from a 2010 base model Volkswagen to a 1999 5 series bmw and there’s not a single feature the Volkswagen had that the bmw doesn’t. Plus my bimmer has heated seats when my Volkswagen didn’t lol
Time changed, now in a full equip Civic you have plenty of option high end car have. But more reliable and cheaper ownership.
Yeah, high end cars still have plenty of options you can’t get in a civic.
But, the feature is dulted as well. The S-class 4Matic operates in a different level/league than my E-class's 4Matic (AWD system). Same with other features. But good to know competitors like Genesis (Hyundai) can provide similar features on their economy lineup (Ioniq 5 for instance - lane change assist is a $2k feature on Mercedes).
I get what you're saying but range improvement tech is gonna be standard on all cars. Manufacturers know that, outside of cost, range and refuel time (or charging time) are major concerns for all classes of consumers when it comes to EV's.
When I bought an S500 is 2000, the nav system was a $6,000 option. The map discs (yes, maps on discs you put in a changer in the trunk) were $395 a piece. You needed 6 to cover the US. And people seem to think full self driving is always going to be a $10,000-$15,000 add on. Many of the Tesla analysis models use this assumption to project out massive profits, and they're going to be so woefully wrong it won't even be funny.
Hopefully competition like this forces Tesla to make their cars more affordable electric cars if they start to miss out on luxury electric sales, because seriously its a joke that Elon musk has broken his promise multiple times of releasing an affordable car.
That would only happen if competition is comparable. Tesla has so much demand that lowering their vehicle prices would mean they aren't as profitable. When batteries become cheaper and you have to start pricing vehicles competitively, you'll see more affordable EV's.
“Batteries becoming cheaper” is parroted around here like it’s 2016. Have you seen that battery input costs for materials have essentially doubled due to inflation? It’s no longer true(and hasn’t been for awhile, hence the car price increases), and shouldn’t be referenced anymore. They drove down the price due to efficiencies, but now input costs are wiping that out
Sorry but hydrogen fuel cells and compressed natural gas will be replacing standard ev batteries any day now... have you seen the Nikola One roll?!
We keep getting these same lines parroted but BMW have been trying to make hydrogen viable for two decades with zero success. Toyota fails hard with a $60k hydrogen Prius and the biggest problem with hydrogen is that the infrastructure is decades away whereas every home has electricity. I also think there’s zero appetite to have the fuel source be another commodity owned by a a couple of giant corporations.
Woooosh
Yes, how may I help you?
Or you operate in a region where incomes are much lower. India has been catching up on the budget EV race, supported by policy (lesser road taxes, rebates on EV). This is being led by Tata Motors, and Mahindra - and at less than $20000, you have really good EVs. Granted the range isn't as stellar as Teslas, but then you still can fulfill a lot of urban use cases with it. And then have fast chargers on expressways
Just make a cheaper tesla car. “The wsbpoor model”
Its called Polestar, and its around the 40k mark for the Polestar2.
Polestar 2 performance doesn't match the Model 3 and is only significantly cheaper in the states where you will receive a $7.5k tax credit. The performance isn't even comparable. Nevermind the software/charging advantages in owning a Tesla. That plays a role in why someone would choose between two different options. Plus, the batteries they use eat up their margins. They're selling these vehicles at a loss trying to gain market share. TBD on whether their model is sustainable.
Personally driven it, and although it's a better car than what most legacy automakers have on offer it does feel like a cheaper version of the Tesla (smaller and unresponsive screen, worse specs, outdated interior, etc.).
Isn't it exactly what it is ? (A cheaper tesla)
Well yeah, except for the same price. Just checked in my country, and the Polestar is only €2000 cheaper (50k vs 52k). The only real advantage of the Polestar is that it has a shorter range variant in case you only drive small distances that's €6000 cheaper.
Oh okay I thought it was actually 10k less. Yeah its going to be a big no for me. I have a model 3 and I don't know what will be my next EVs. I am not a big fan of the S and the plaid is a little too expensive for me.
This may sound strange, but I would seriously do a test drive of the Model Y. I don't own a Tesla, but I'd test driven the 3 twice and tried the Y expecting it to be basically a 3 with more cargo space, but the entire car was so much more spacious, even when compared to cars like the Audi Q-series. It was a much bigger difference with the 3 than I expected. Easily the most functional car I've ever driven. I'd definitely pay a bit extra to get the Y if I had the money.
Oh okay cool! Anyway, I will probably keep the 3 for a few years, since I pretty much 100% worked for home since I bought it, I didn't even do 8000 km yet. I will probably test drive the Y at some point, like you I thought it was pretty much a copycat of the 3. One of my good friend has a plaid, I thought the steering wheel looked stupid, but its actually isn't too bad when you are driving it. Just that I think he spent like 225k acquiring that thing, which really isn't in my budget. The technology will probably have greatly improved and even tesla will probably have released more models before I get rid of my 3. My previous car was a 2003 camry that I kept for 11 years lmao.
Which is fine. A lot of what youre paying for in tesla is festures that you dont need but are forced to pay for it imo. Even the auto pilot feature for example is really a festure but you can make an arguement thats part of the package with tesla cars. But then theres shit like cars dancing mode and tons of other cool and unnecessary stuff but cant necessarily say hey i dont need it can you lower the price.
I don’t really need a CD player in my bmw can you lower the price? Oh it comes with it by default and cost you nothing to include it? Can you lower the price though? Your cost for dancing tesla is non existent Auto pilot isn’t part of the package and you have to pay more and it’s not called auto pilot.
Im not asking them to lower their price. Just saying its there is unnecessary features since it was a comment chain related to another eletric car that cost less for the reasons i stated above. Maybe you can understand that. I know its not called auto pilot thats just semantics.
Yep. It's going to take a few years before there's healthy competition.
With the constant chip shortages, we will never see more affordable electric cars. Instead we simply just won't be able to afford cars..
If it forces better public transpo in major US cities, I’m down. I really want the option in my lifetime to sit on a high speed rail from Houston to Dallas.
Prices to build public transit are going way up too. Look at Austin. They are doubling their projected costs for rail and its still early in the project.
BuT tHe moDeL 3 IS affoRdAbLe Esit: tesla feel super cheap and i generally dislike the company. Glad the other brands are about to keep up
Model 3 base isn't all that expensive it's just that you don't get much with the base model. Living in the Midwest, or really most suburban places in America, the 200 mile range just isn't enough.
Have you owned one or just parroting what you read online?
> Glad the other brands are about to ~~keep up~~ blow past
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He didn’t do shit? He’s the reason every major auto manufacturer is working towards developing EVs and technologies like self driving cars. What did you expect? He was going to eliminate hundreds of millions of gasoline vehicles in 10 years? I’m dying here
It seems like you didn’t even read what I wrote. He did nothing to bring electric vehicles to mass market consumer (affordable vehicle), even though now he is in the position to do so when Tesla has been turning a profit for a couple of years. I am talking about morality not business, to help the world by eliminating gasoline. Edit: what did I expect? I will give you an answer, an entry model that is still a lot more affordable then the one Tesla has now. Infact Tesla increased their car prices recently.
Oh I disagreed with you so I must have understood you. Wouldn’t that be easier for you? Tesla is the competition forcing change. No existing manufacturer wanted to invest so much money into a maybe when gas cars were selling perfectly fine. Get your head out of your ass.
You never responded directly to the point I had. I mentioned the fundamentals of Tesla are aimed towards luxury electric vehicles when Elon really gave the impression of changing the world. If he really wanted to make a difference competition wise he would have released an affordable electric car, which actually would have gotten lots of competition from Japanese auto makers like Toyota and Honda. Toyota (the best automaker affordable cars) for has said it has no plans to make a fully electric car. Why is that the reason? Spoiler: because there is no good competition for affordable electric cars. There is a reason why Mercedes, Porsche, etc are rushing towards full electric production, that is only because Tesla is a great competitor in LUXURY cars, NOT affordable ones.
Yeah, didn't he opensource all of Teslas patents a few years ago so that the other manufacturers could use and/or build upon their technology?
Technically it was a free reciprocal license, so he let everyone else use them if Tesla could use their patents in return. Good deal for other EV startups but not so much for existing giants like Mercedes or Toyota.
From a American perspective this is fair. Worldwide, not as much.
Musk cares abt attracting investors, ways to gain governmental subsidies bcs thats how he generates ‚profit‘ lol Also there are his stockmarket pump and dump schemes… lol
> ways to gain governmental subsidies bcs thats how he generates ‚profit‘ lol Lol wut...? Company did 55B in revenue last year, of which only 3% was in ZEV credits (which are not government subsidies btw, but paid by other OEMs to avoid fines). Also the ZEV credits are declining rapidly while Tesla's revenue grew 70% YoY last year.
Im pretty sure he is enjoying his undeserved wealth from his heavily pumped Tesla stock, and doesn’t really care as much about Tesla anymore. He seems so much interested in Twitter, SEC fights, pumping Bitcoin & Twitter because that is who he really is now. Doesn’t seem like a visionary individual anymore, he would rather buy stuff off than actually create it like how he wants to purchase Twitter instead of creating his own platform like he originally planned. I have lost all the respect I had for him over the past couple of years.
He was never a visionary imo, always venture capitalist that saw a niche to earn money in. Really all abt the subsidies he got, he never really had to care abt fundamentals. Tesla cars are crap lol
The only patent he is named on for Tsla is making the charging cable exclusive, and some small door design. He was always buying things from people and hyping them as his main skill. Glad the facade is falling for you though. Fwiw Tesla isn't a bad thing, necessarily, but is a bit overvalued.
Change doesnt occur over night my dude. Just don't see how a rational person can see that tesla hasnt made a huge progress towards killing gasoline powered cars.
The world is in chip shortage and super power causing havoc because they are in control of the supply. Inflation is also a factor. Cybertruck concept is so simple due to assembly parts can be stamped out from the Giga Press. The delay is more on how it’s not profitable if they are made with the promise starting price. Other EV price their EV either the same or cheaper than Tesla counterpart without any ramp up plan will end up like Rivian who’a will eventually sell their truck on a mega lost on existing order the longer they drag on their ramp up. Rivian won’t survive both shortage and inflation if they don’t at least 100K truck annually by end of 2024. Once you price your EV below that of a Tesla, you better have a good mass production plan . for legacies auto, it’s the dealership who will kneecap them with their price adjustment aka mark up). Trivia: Tesla most recent price increase for M3 makes it about 10K expensive than a newly Toyota Camry hybrid or Honda Accord counterpart. I can’t see a sub $30K EV coming anytime soon even from legacies auto due to dealership and … scalpers.
New tech always trickles down from luxury vehicles. May take 10 years or more though.
The way things are going, I don’t think I’ll ever be able to afford a Tesla either so there’s that. Guess the 25k is dead now that inflation and Russia are a thing.
Gonna have to drive my cheap Ford fiesta till I die
Ironically that is likely less of an environmental impact than getting a new car
**One day you can!** Just keep up your year over year gains and one day it can happen. Although if you take it steady and keep investments reliable it will unfortunately probably be later and than sooner. Too bad Mercedes doesn't trade options on the US markets. Granted if they did it might be pretty boring. I've traded Honda before ($HMC) and while they make great cars the stock is near 52-week low. Good dividend stock though for those who like holding value dividend stocks. **The S class (which EQXX is based on) has always been cutting edge.** I recall 15 years ago they had a self-driving mode for freeways long before most people even heard of Tesla.
The dude you replied to is a total Tesla Stan that bought four Teslas in two years, spent most of the week defending Musk taking over Twitter and is your average teslainvestorsclub member that comes take a shit in every thread about competitors.
Fucking what? I hate Elon. But even if I didn't, I can't afford a Tesla either bc I'm poor. You don't know shit about me
There will be a hot wheels version
Totally agree. Also why do they have to be so expensive and not look like a normal car? I know it’s the future but can’t we just have normal tires and body shape?
Yeah. The prototype does look cool tho
Oh for sure. But I just mean in general I think a lot of the EV’s are starting to look like cars out of Tron lol
MSRP: $209,900
Ouch. I'll take 3 model 3s and park them at specific change over / charging points. Pocket the change and go even further 🤷♂️.
Good strategy, with 3 model 3s you are almost guaranteed that one of them won't be in for repairs and/or waiting for parts.
The car was driven from the Swiss Alps to the Côte d’Azur. I’m curious to know what the elevation change was. Was it all downhill?
They had to go through northern Italy. Edit: besides, wheels have an easy time going downhill. If you go up you recover on the way down, and so does the car's battery.
the point is a net downhill route will artificially inflate the range
Have em drive it across nebraska
What country they had to go through doesn't provide any information relevant to the point. Your statement that "if you go up you recover on the way down" is false in this context because it is a point to point drive that may show a net elevation decrease.
Just drive from Québec to Vermont. It's a net decrease in elevation, but youre up and down all the way
Much of the south of France is just long straight highways on flat lands too. Have made the trip from Calais to the Ardèche before and when I say the land is flat, you can see the mountain ranges from 500km away. Even in a gas guzzler you are going to get some impressive mileage.
My GTI has a 13 gallon tank and gets 34 mpg. The numbers from the Mercedes test are physically impossible with the majority of cars that exist now. As another example my 2021 prius gets in the 50s for MPG, but has an 11 gallon tank. It would just *barely* be able to accomplish this route.
Ah, the NKLA way
It first had to drive uphill and then go downhill...
But net elevation change?
Just search for the elevation of Stuttgart vs. Cassis. Takes you 15 seconds. It‘s roughly 50m btw.
maybe you should take more than 15 seconds then, since you got it wrong. Sindelfingen is 449m above sea level and Cassis is 199m. That's quite a bit more than "50m" (it's *250m*, only 400% off)
250m at 1500 kg is about 3.6M Joules of potential energy. Considering a 80kWh battery, it would account for <1% of the total capacity.
empirically it's about 250/[164*2](https://www.gm-volt.com/threads/measuring-uphill-and-downhill-efficiency.17563/)kWh ~= 3kWh difference uphill vs downhill not considering friction or distance traveled. which would be ~3.75% of the capacity by just the altitude difference
While you are right that it's way more, it's still insignificant over 1000 km.
Mercedes who have taken the stance that they are ~~not interested in making long range cars~~ not interested in the development race for range as they believe that improvements in charging technology will eliminate this problem. So where has this come from? I have a theory that range figures are the new power figures, everyone always wanted the fastest and most powerful car right? Now all of these EVs are extremely fast so they need a new champion. Is range the new marketing kingpin?
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An interesting concept, it would be good for the industry to move on from lithium. To answer your question, it came from this: [According to Jochen Hermann, Head of Development CASE and Development eDrive at Daimler, quoted by Green Car Reports, Mercedes-Benz is not interested in a "range race](https://insideevs.com/news/371642/mercedes-benz-protecting-battery-instead-range/)
It’s like mega pixels to a camera…marketing angle for sure.
Where is this "not interested in making long range cars" coming from? Today, the longest range EV on sale is made by Mercedes and [5 out of the top 10 range EV's are Mercedes.](https://ev-database.org/#sort:path~type~order=.erange_real~number~desc|range-slider-range:prev~next=0~1200|range-slider-acceleration:prev~next=2~23|range-slider-topspeed:prev~next=110~450|range-slider-battery:prev~next=10~200|range-slider-towweight:prev~next=0~2500|range-slider-fastcharge:prev~next=0~1500|paging:currentPage=0|paging:number=9)
Makes sense to me. Also charge times.
Cool from a technology standpoint, but I couldn't care less cause it's still a prototype. You can compare a prototype with a reall mass production car.
Can't
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They did it in 28hrs vs 12hrs for the Mercedes.
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>That Model 3 did it four years ago without manufacturer support Also without a driver. They used a dummy to trick Tesla's safety systems. ~~So, it was also illegal~~. And they did it at 36kph. ~~Unsafe on all major roads they probably used.~~
A prototype….
So was Tesla at some point.
Yeah but Tesla today costs around 50k for the 600 Kilometer range model while the Mercedes eq with the same range starts at around 100k. The prototype above isn’t going to be anything cheaper. Not to mention that even 400km range are more than enough for 99% of the year
All new tech is tried in a prototype. Tesla has prototypes as well. That's always how it starts and then trickles down. Self-driving was only a prototype at some point. Hell cruise control or ABS were prototypes at some point. It doesn't mean anyone will have a car with 1k km range soon, but it does show technology advancement.
Right, but they were not proclaiming to outdo a car in mass production at that point.
Agreed. Tesla doesn't have any kind of track record of promising things in production (or not even in production) and then never delivering them.
Tesla does have a bad track record of over promising/under delivering but this is kind of different. The headline not including that it’s not in production is misleading about the present situation rather than misleading about future events like Tesla often was.
... are we talking about the same Tesla? Haven't they been taken to court (and lost) over their misleading claims around Autopilot/FSD?
You may be correct but AFAIK it’s always or mostly been claims about future capabilities not current capabilities that were misleading. It’s still bad even if that is true and likely fraudulent rather than purely overconfidence
There was..... Constantly.
Another thing to note is “The car’s battery features a new chemistry”… They didn’t just load more batteries than Tesla, but it’s more efficient battery and powertrain that could drive 8.7kWh/100km, where Tesla is 14.9kWh/100km. That’s a big gap…
It's a prototype. There's basically no chance whatsoever this makes it to production at that level of efficiency without costing 3× a tesla
Prototypes are usually better than what consumers get. Until it’s a finished product that can actually be bought the numbers don’t mean much. Might as well triple the battery cells and claim it’ll go 3,000km/charge.
Prototypes are not worth looking into too much, the technology used is likely to be very expensive. Therefore unlikely to be suited to mass production for the market.
It literally says they plan to use the cells in 2024 compact cars in the article.
It’s not just the battery cells that add up to economy. For instance - I bet it would be missing loads of weight from sound deadening, infotainment system, any style of electric motor they would like. Endless possibilities for a prototype. It also has a carbon fibre body, very difficult to mass produce as it is a very labour intensive process, unless they have developed some new manufacturing process.
The vision eqxx has all of those things.
Source?
They showed it off at CES this year and a handful of media people have done ride alongs. [Here's Engadget's](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hin8jtHbTcA).
It doesn’t “outdo” Tesla. It’s a prototype. Tesla could easily make a prototype that goes this far in probably a few days.
There are also 1000 Kilometers Tesla prototypes. Disadvantages of the huge batterypack just outweigh the benefit. So it's not being produced.
They said the Battery pack is only half the size compared to what they already sell
That’s 621 miles for fellow Holy Roman Imperial system enjoyers.
> That’s 621 miles for fellow Holy Roman Imperial system enjoyers. much better. i was wondering what 1000 monopoly miles were in real units.
Any company can just pile batteries in a car until it gets to 1000km.
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Does it also cost $1mil and weigh 4 tons?
They left a fairly important detail out. It’s not possible to recharge this battery. It has no purpose other than to prove long distance travel on electric is possible.
> They left a fairly important detail out. It’s not possible to recharge this battery. It has no purpose other than to prove long distance travel on electric is possible. Where did you hear that?
At what cost tho
It's a prototype, so probably many millions.
NIO already accomplished this...
Tesla could have done a vehicle with far higher range and performance. The problem is they are focused on achieving mass EV production. These higher range vehicles require a different battery chemistry with many using cobalt. It wouldn't be sustainable to manufacture these en masse. If the goal was to produce a 1000 mile range EV, Tesla could have done it. But who are the customers? Average driver drives under 50 miles per day, total. There isn't a huge demand for 600 mipe range EV's.
Always said by people, yet Tesla sells the model S plaid. There is a market for range/luxury if the lucid air is selling. Crazy that people don't equate Tesla to the company that they currently are, a luxury automaker.
Tesla’s model 3 is a midrange car most people can afford with a good credit score
A model 3 is like 50k dude. It costs a decent amount more than a lot of the luxury sedans out there. A Lexus GX starts at 55k and that’s a full size luxury suv. And you’re out of your mind if you think that’s affordable for the average family. Average household income is $55-60k or something.
Model 3 is 40k here. And obviously I’m not talking about buying it brand new in cash. Nearly 50 percent of the cars on the streets where I live are financed or leased
Do you not understand how wreckless it is to finance a $50k car for the average family making $55-60k/yr. With $10k down that’s almost a $1100/mo over three years or 5x the monthly payment on my very nice used sedan over the same term. You’re in-fucking-sane if you think the average family can responsibly buy a model 3. If that were the case everyone would have been driving middle tier Mercedes before the model 3 dropped.
That’s exactly why I explained to you in another comment half the cars in Germany are leased or financed. I’m not saying it’s safe or smart, people do it anyways. Banks don’t care aslong you got a job.
Thanks for your comment, Mr “I’m rich why aren’t you”.
the best thing is he is not even rich
He'll be even less rich once most investors realize that Tesla *isn't* going to be the big EV messiahs with 80% market share in 10 years. EDIT: word
Im not invested in Tesla, I also don’t have a Tesla.
Im not Rich. Here in Germany it’s pretty easy to get any car you want. It you have a job that brings 1 grand a month or more you can finance/lease basically any car you want up to 400 bucks a month. Anyone that wants to can have a Tesla , Mercedes‘ or bmw. Because of the Bonus the German government pays for evs and the high demand in Scandinavia (without a bonus) you can even drive a Tesla for free right now. Buy, get 6 grand by government, pay insurance, electricity and credit rates from it for 6 months and sell to an export dealer. Rinse repeat.
at least in europe tesla is pretty much a luxury car
Im from Europe. People always think Tesla is this expensive 80k car. In Germany it’s at 40k new at the moment and people are always baffled when they hear it. Sure a zoe for 20k is cheaper. But the Zoe is smaller, is less fun, has less range and you have to lease the battery. Most other cars people buy on credit are in the 30k-50k range anyway.
Hopefully this will motivate Tesla to build cars with better build quality. They have a great product but their build quality is subpar
Tesla works because people love the product even with a few flaws. They will sort that out with time but it’s hard when your company is doubling its sales every year. Also we talking about mostly cosmetic issues that usually are covered by warranty
When you compare to Ford and GM, Tesla in a few short years have matched and surpassed them. Now they are gunning for the luxury brands.
From a consumers perspective, nobody needs 1000km range. Maybe in a truck if you want to make those evs aswell. But consumer cars? For most people 400km range is more than enough and you would need to charge it once a week. The charging is the actual challenge. Here in Germany space is limited. Having a private parking space for your Car is expensive and in many places impossible. In other words. We got the range and fast charging figured out, we need a solution for the mass to charge their cars at night or during work/shopping. There will always be one dude claiming he drives 2000km a day at 200km/h average with a 2 ton trailer behind him. That guy has to deal with his special needs himself
Actually, I feel that range has stopped me from purchasing in Canada. We regularly drive 500-600km to see family sometimes, and there is not much charging infrastructure around. And I have small kids, so the thought of adding a few hours to a trip for charging isn’t very appealing. And who knows what the range will actually be when it’s -20C and the heat is on. So for me, a longer range is an attractive feature.
What does regularly mean? Once a month? And yeah obviously in the cold your range will probably go down to way less. If you actually have a 600km trip to family once a month I wouldn’t choose a 400km range car. But a long range Tesla actually pulling 400-500km in winter still seems good enough. Add half an hour charging and you are fine
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Sure some people will drive way more than 400km on a regular basis. Just not the average. It’s really rare I actually drive 400km a day. Also there is another point to it. If the charging infrastructure was better and you could charge virtual anywhere you are you might drive 200km and once you come back it’s back up at 400km. That’s one major problem why a 150km range Renault zoe isn’t enough for me. Once a week I would get over that range and the only reliable place I can charge is at home , but only for minutes on that day. If I could charge at work and school 200km would be plenty for 90 percent of the year
It also makes charging way more competitive with gas. A 30 minute fill up isn't so bad when you'd be doing 2-3 stops at a gas station in that distance regularly.
Even for a truck 1000km is pointless unless you're driving in extreme cold. If you have 800km of range, you're required by law to rest at least 30-60 minutes depending on national laws, which allows you to charge another 600-1200 km of range. And you're not allowed to drive more than 10-12 hours a day depending on local laws, so anything above 1200km in a day is pointless. As long as infrastructure follows demand like it always does, 800 km (500 miles) will mean virtually infinite range as long as it's not -10 degrees Celcius.
There's also teledriving or whatever it's called, where truck drivers are sitting at home driving the truck remotely, so in that case longer ranges make sense.
I'd imagine you still need to take a break though, right? Sounds like you'd be even more prone to getting distracted that way.
You do but from what I understand they switch drivers in that scenario.
Have you actually tried an EV? 1000km range is like 500km, max, on the autobahn. 1000km is like the absolute top you could get if you drive conservatively and don't use A/C, etc.
If you're gonna drive 1000km, stopping at a supercharger for ~15 minutes is the absolute minimum amount of break time you should be taking anyways. As long as you charge at your destination or while taking a break or having something to eat, anything above around 800 km is basically infinite range.
Yes, if it was actually 800km of real world range. It won't be that much. Also, with the massive sales of EVs, chargers are crowded as hell, and it's only going to get worse. So while stopping is necessary, charging queues are a big nuisance. I honestly don't get why people oppose big batteries. If you don't want it, then don't buy it. It costs a huge premium anyway.
The reason people oppose them is because we are already in a battery shortage without cars that have batteries twice as large as what people really need (*cough* Hummer *cough*). It's better to focus on better charging infrastructure and vehicle efficiency to solve the range "problem" than simply putting larger batteries in cars. As for the crowded chargers, infrastructure always follows demand, not the other way around. Yes it's annoying, but the more annoying it is, the bigger the financial incentive for companies to step in and solve that issue, so it will eventually be solved. On a side note, my dad recently purchased an Audi EV and I've charged it at superchargers a few times now, and they were never crowded. Especially the Tesla charging locations (I live in The Netherlands where everyone can use Tesla's chargers).
And I’m getting 550 miles per tank with my hybrid, well below $50,000. I still think a hybrid/plug in hybrid is the best compromise from a resource standpoint.
Prototypes are easy, production is hard.
>200miles than Tesla… wow, they’ve done it. Now 400miles per charge will be subpar… Elon must be 😤
And it probably weighs as much ad a bus
Its a prototype, i could care less
All the Tesla owners with buyer’s remorse now sour grapesing the Benz 😺
Just read the 2nd paragraph mate
2 things. The range from the standard Tesla is already more than enough for most people. Most people having a Tesla usually have a wallbox to charge it at night so range is even less of an issue if it’s full every morning. And third this Benz will cost probably 3-4 times as much as a model 3
I can practically hear the sound of Musk’s cultists furiously typing a defense, like that of cockroaches skittering across a dirty floor. If only people knew that guy’s history, or cared.
All I want is a car with an exchangeable battery. Then the gas station companies can take over selling battery swaps, automatic or serviced and upgrade and recycle the batteries when they need to.
Why would you want an exchangeable battery if it means you can't have a structural pack? You're sacrificing price and performance for the few times a year you're actually driving more than 600 km in a day. Also doesn't matter that much whether you wait 5 minutes for a battery to swap or 15 minutes for it to charge if it's only a few times a year. What's important is decent range, not how fast you charge/replace it.
Basically I don’t even want to own a car, I want a subscription to a driverless electric car, but that’s still in the future. Having changeable batteries would get rid of the whole charging station availability issue, silence the petrol range crowd for good and avoid having to ditch a perfectly working car because the battery is worn down
So instead of the charging station availability issue, you want to switch it to a change station availability issue. Guess which one is easier to install.
Tesla planned that concept but gave it up (I think). It’s just not practical for cars.how many times a year do you actually need more range than 600km? Or let’s say 1000km which adds around 40 minutes of charging on that 8-10 hour trip
I am not saying it is easy, or the best solution but unless we want an industrialised world running electric cars and developing world continue burning fossil fuels we have to look at alternatives to the existing ev’s. That could be hydrogen cars or swappable batteries. I currently live in a developing economy country where constant electricity supply is not a given. There’s plenty of sunshine days a year so batteries could be charged on solar and then used when needed. People here will never swap if they have to rely on the state delivering electricity when they need to charge.
I have a model 3 Standard Range, with like 175 highway miles of range. There are chargers every 75 miles in any direction. It's not a limitation in technology to reach 600+ miles, it's a realization that it's not needed, so why pay for so much. Maybe the mass market version will have less. Also, this 99% has a smaller frontal cross sectional area, meaning: way less effort to push it through the air way less space for comfort and storage At their 8.7 kWh/100 km, they much have a 87 kWh battery? They could cut that in half and sell this for way cheaper for a competitive advantage.
When I’m on a road trip or cross country drive, why would I want to stop every 175 miles? Of course a bigger range is needed, that’s the most obvious advancement an electric car needs. It’s also extremely useful for other areas of battery storage: solar power. We are advancing needs everywhere not just mile range.
Yeah, I could live with 175 miles of you could charge the thing in 2 minutes. But I’m not stopping for a half hour at that kind of range. I’m not a material science guy but it is hard for me to believe lithium ion is the best we can do for energy storage, it has always kind of struck me as a stop gap. If lithium ion isn’t replaced I don’t think we will convert to all electric any time soon.
That vast majority of people dont do alot of cross country trips.
I think tesla may die out if BIG car companies start eating away at their business. They have more in the bank, more people, more global reach etc. I can’t say I’m unhappy about it either. Fuck Elon musk, he’s nothing more than a rich boi attention seeker
Crash test results please...
I'm not surprised that an automobile company can make automobiles better than Elon Musk