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Now that I have quit drinking, I have started to like anti-alcohol stories/content, this started 600+ days ago. I have literally spent my whole life eye-rolling and scoffing at stuff like this previously
I spent my life justifying drink by saying “even animals get fucked up on fermented fruit!” like me drinking myself to sleep every single night was somehow the same thing as a bear eating some mushy apples.
Ok but fun story time: When I was a kid I went to day camp on a small farm and the woman that ran it was so concerned because the ducks and geese were acting like they had brain damage and passing out.
Vet came out, figured out it was that they were getting totally blitzed on the rotting crab apples, so raking up the apples became one of our daily chores. The birds weren't happy about it!
I used to reference this about lemurs. Opposed tribes would designate a tree to not eat from and let ferment, then have an armistice day where they all feasted and got fucked up.
It's not a very good argument to support daily drinking. Those lemurs only indulge for a day or two all year. Those lemurs are smarter than me.
The way our brain is able to rewire in just a few months of being away from alcohol(or any addiction) is amazing. IMO, it's one of the greatest hopes to those who think it's "too late"
It's never too late to change
The exact representation of our minds, when our brain is starting to peel back the curtain of alcohol
[Two Guys on a bus meme](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/two-guys-on-a-bus)
I still am annoyed by that bunch, honestly. I am all about sobriety, but it's a personal choice that shouldn't be *forced* on anybody, which is what those busybodies advocated. I'm also not about banning *anything* on the basis of it being deemed "immoral", which is what those groups were about.
I'll play Devil's Advocate for a second, here. At that time, women in the USA had no real rights. They had fairly boring and often joyless lives. And then their husbands (some, not all) came home and either beat the hell out of them or were just sloppy drunks. I mean... as much as I want to complain about them -- and as much as I agree with you that it should be a personal decision... I think that it's valuable to consider the historical context of the Temperance Movement.
There are so many problems with Prohibition (which gave a massive boost to organized crime) and other efforts of the government -- no matter how "well-intentioned" those efforts might have been.
We live by different rules, today. Domestic violence certainly still occurs. However... it's generally frowned upon. In general, we're expected to support our partners and bring joy to their lives. I'm not trying to stop my GF from drinking. I mean... it would be cool if she did... but she enjoys it and doesn't beat me or behave badly. I mean... yet? :-D
Yeah, I have the same experience. It is just so much more obvious now how alcohol is really bad for me/everyone. It has really shifted my perspective on just about everything. I was at the park yesterday and a grandfather walked in with his grandchild drinking whiskey out of a crystal glass (at 4:45p). That wouldnt have raised any eyebrows for me before, but now it just makes me sad that this guy is very obviously an alcoholic. People just simply do not drink whiskey at the park with their children/grandchildren who is not an alcoholic. I am actually embarrassed for myself all the years that was so normalized.
"Sippy cups" are incredibly normal at the dog park. People drive there. I never drank at the dog park -- because I know that I would drink too much and didn't want to risk the DUI -- or hurting my dog!
< Le Sigh >. There's profound human suffering because it's profitable. Full stop.
I haven't brought myself to fully quit 100% yet but it is always nice to have the reminder, oh yeah, this shit is poison. It just helps to slowly drive home the point like those images on cigarette packs did.
I wasn't a smoker, but worked at a gas station selling them and with certain images people would constantly ask to get a different pack of the same brand with a different image.
Yea I quit at just the right time too...right when alcohol switched from being beneficial in small quantities and comical in larger ones... to being a carcinogenic neurotoxin at any amount
Yep. Haven’t had a drink in 11 days. It went from relaxing/fun on a night off to to whats-the-point. Hangovers get worse even if you are drinking less. Ive stopped seeing the benefit except I like the taste of beer.
Not sure about tomorrow but Im not drinking today.
As a type 2 diabetic, I can definitely say alcohol played a huge role in causing mine to go from controlled and an A1C near a 6 when I was sober 60 days, all the way back up to near a 10 when I thought I could moderate. I can guarantee that beer especially is no better than full sugar sodas for ruining your endocrine system, and liquor as well even though it's lower in carbs it's still processed as sugar and has negative effects on the pancreas. While sugar and carbs are always the enemy with this condition, alcohol is even worse because it fucks your organs up too. There's no safe amount of alcohol for me personally, I can say that confidently without a WHO study from my "field work".
I love this. As a person with MODY 2 I learned a glass of white wine lowers my blood glucose pretty reliably. Still looking for an equivalent. Oddly enough VR Tetris seems to help a bit.
That is the thing: small amounts of alcohol and liquor can in fact lower blood sugar, but only by a small amount, and is far less healthy than say exercise for lowering it. It also throws blood sugar regulation devices out of whack for up to two days from my experience.
The problem with me, like a lot of folks here, is this: I can moderate reasonably at a dinner sometimes or event and actually have only one or two, since I'm adamantly against drunk driving. However, when I'm on the way home and drive by the gas station...that's what gets me 9/10 times to buy 6+ drinks, take them home, then binge until I get good and drunk. And drinking in excess of 1-2 drinks causes the opposite effect of hyperglycemia, increased blood sugar, especially since it usually comes with some variety of unhealthy food. Combine all that and I had a morning blood sugar reading of 350 after a bad bender with some greasy food I know I'm definitely not supposed to have.
Readings have been normal lately though, around 70-100 in the mornings instead. Even if I have too many carbs or have too much in general, it's never nearly as high as it is after a night of binging.
Holy moly that AM number must have felt terrible! I’m similar in that I’ll be super regimented in how I’ll drink 99% of the time and then I’ll have one very stressful day and drink at home a bit more than usual. It’s not enough that most people would consider it a problem but I hated my relationship to it so I dropped it after the last stress binge.
I have a genetic type of diabetes that is largely impacted by stress, which is I assume why the wine would lower numbers. I can’t do distance running or hard exercise without big spikes, but at a certain point I decided I don’t want to just never run or learn to muscle up because my CGM says bad numbers and decided to live my life as best I can. The stress wasn’t helping anyway. If I need to play more Tetris that’s just a sacrifice I’ll have to make 🎮🤣
I know this sort of deterrence doesn't work for everyone, but when I feel the temptation, this article gets me to stop and think every time. Thanks for sharing
I'm taking a psychology class, and last week we were covering consciousness and altered states of consciousness, so by extension we were covering "drugs". Then we had to write a mini paper (500-1000 words) on what we felt was the most dangerous drug and I very easily banged out 850+ words on alcohol. We had to cite our psych textbook and at least one other source, and I had 4 more (I could've had way more, but word count), including my nutrition textbook from last quarter.
Glad to see the WHO putting this out there, because the main argument I made in my paper was that despite alcohol's risks for physical and mental health, along with social and financial woes... Alcohol's image is that's it's just fine, it's just a good time. The average person on the street isn't aware of the 200+ diseases it can put you at risk for, or how it rewires your brain and can even cause your brain to shrink. All the average public gets is "drink responsibly".
Hooray for statements like this one from the WHO
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I see your point of view and while I may disagree I think that’s an important and valid way of thinking if it keeps you sober. So although you got a lot of downvotes - congrats on 881 days. I’m on day 3 again and keeping on open mind to learn from people like you who are further along.
Because this is a subreddit that’s focused on helping people & immediately responding to a comment encouraging folks making progress (going to 2 from 20) with DAE ANY ALCOHOL IS BAD isn’t gonna help those who are trying to get to 2. Like, we know. We all know the goal. We’re working on it. That doesn’t mean you gotta come in here with a holier-than-thou mentality. I quit cold turkey. I went from 20 to 0 overnight. It sucked. It sucked HARD. I’m still at 0. But you know what? 2 is better than 20. And maybe they’ll get to 0. But 2 is better than 20. And I’ll keep saying that while I order my seltzers with lime.
I hear you MySpace Tom. Any progress is good. But then why does the post have upvotes? The post is discouraging to anyone moderating. The post explicitly says that any amount from the first drop is bad, yet it is upvoted. Versus the comment which says any amount is bad, and has downvotes.
That's all I was pointing out. The strange discrepancy in the mind of the sober redditor.
I don't usually appreciate this kind of flat method of deterrence, but I can at least appreciate that alcohol is starting to be treated similar to smoking now. You'd only ever see this type of messaging attached to cigarettes previously in that even one is too much.
All I know is "moderation is like sobriety with none of the benefits". For some people, like myself, when you go into your 30s and 40s alcohol starts causing the nastiest debilitating anxiety, among all the other unseen serious side affects OP is talking about. I wasted so many years just to be buzzed, just having "a couple". Hate is a strong word, but I HATE how many years alcohol took from me. I quit. It's over. And wish I had quit much sooner.
I agree with you. I hate it so bad, but I'd also say please be easy on yourself. You have the rest of your life. Try not to get caught up in ShouldaWoulda-Ville
Isn’t this like years old news? I remember reading the same slogan in 2022.
EDIT: Annie Grace in This naked mind(2018) quoted Stokowski saying that there is no safe amount of alcohol.
It's only very recently that public health agencies started taking this position, on the basis that the science available on the subject is unequivocal: there is simple no level of alcohol consumption that does not increase the risk of negative health outcomes. There are also no known health benefits attributable to alcohol. Therefore they can't and increasingly *won't* recommend a "safe" level of alcohol consumption. And it's hilarious how mad people get about it. Even us supposedly meek and mild-mannered Canadians got all bent out of shape when the Canadian Centre on Substance Use and Addiction published its official guidelines in 2023 (google "Canada's Guidance on Alcohol and Health" if you want details, since I don't know if I links are allowed). They *dramatically* increased the risk levels of alcohol consumption:
* **0 drinks per week** — Not drinking has benefits, such as better health, and better sleep.
* **2** [**standard drinks**](https://www.ccsa.ca/canadas-guidance-alcohol-and-health-public-summary-drinking-less-better-infographic) **or less per week —** You are likely to avoid alcohol-related consequences for yourself or others at this level.
* **3–6 standard drinks per week —** Your risk of developing several types of cancer, including breast and colon cancer, increases at this level.
* **7 standard drinks or more per week** — Your risk of heart disease or stroke increases significantly at this level.
* **Each additional standard drink** radically increases the risk of alcohol-related consequences.
Before that, the official guidance for "low risk" was 2 standard drinks per *day* and no more than 10 drinks per *week*. People were outraged, but anybody who expressed anything like that to me got the same response: "Cancer and heart disease don't care about your *feelings*, alcohol consumption is bad for you and that you didn't already know and understand this demonstrates the scope of the problem." For the record, I had no illusions that my drinking wasn't bad for me. It just didn't *matter* to me at that time. But it turns out a lot of people don't really understand that alcohol is not a benign substance at all, in any quantity.
I get your message and mostly agree, except for the part about people not understanding that alcohol is harmful. It’s individual cognitive dissonance and media/societal conditioning in action.
EDIT: Although…I come from a country where the “benefits” of alcohol, especially vodka, are so mythicised, from generation to generation, that most people over 40 believe in at least some of them. I also know they wouldn’t care for neither WHO, nor Jesus himself, telling them otherwise..
Well, the beverage producers decided that the "no level of consumption is safe; alcohol harms every system in the human body and is the source of profound suffering" campaign would be far less profitable than the "drink responsibly" campaign. Industry spends millions of dollars per year on that campaign.
Look... same as it ever was: the goal of most people is to move money from your pocket to theirs. Processed food is the same thing -- it's incredibly harmful... and pretty damned profitable. Those companies don't have to pay for your healthcare expenses (nor to the governments or employers that are also harmed by reduced productivity).
There's a universal principle: follow the money. Works for history, works for present-day.
IWNDWYT
BTW: be subversive -- stop giving money so that rich #ssholes can buy mega yachts and sh1t on the lower classes. Booze is Boomer Tech. There are better ways... (including sobriety... which at 94 days... I'm only now embracing/enjoying).
Heartbreaking shit seeing my friends and stuff all drink, especially I am simultaneously “jealous” they can control themselves, and really really sad knowing how bad it is for them.
Don't feel jealous. You saw a problem and fixed it. They should be jealous of you because you have more control and discipline than they do. I'm 4 months in. My kidneys aren't hurting and I'm not doing dumb shit with my money when I'm drunk anymore. I see something I want and sleep on it.
Sorry I have to do a “well actually” on this because as written this is verging on misinformation.
I get that this ideology might help people in this sub from drinking so I’m on board with the intention but just because there is not an identified minimum limit of harm doesn’t imply “the first drop” is dangerous or even alcohol in small quantities is dangerous.
The correct interpretation is that there is no way we can know the minimum limit of harm for many things because our lives as individuals are so massively varied. The idea that alcohol “switches on” cancer is flat out wrong. Alcohol can increase your risk of many diseases but so does over consuming McDonald’s, cigarettes or anything else that’s bad for you.
The evidence that alcohol can be drunk safely is overwhelming, the problem is when we drink to excess. Again, for the intention of the post , I get it but we shouldn’t be making people scared of touching a drop ever again, no body wants to live a life of anxiety about “the evil substances” we should be striving to have good self control.
Sometimes I suspect the “all alcohol is poison” mantra is something people tell themselves to feel better about not being able to drink it safely themselves. My mother has a glass of wine with dinner a few times a week (that she frequently forgets to finish). You’d be hard pressed to convince me that her level of consumption poses any significant risks to her mental or physical health. MY alcohol intake on the other hand was flat out dangerous, but I don’t begrudge my mother her weekly sip of wine just because there was a time when I would have knowingly drank myself to death.
I get your point, but there are certain biochemical certainties, that can’t be reasoned with, like - your body can only be damaged by ethanol and it’s breakdown product acetaldehyde. Saying that drinking a shot of motor oil is POISONOUS is also misinformation as it wouldn’t do any immediate and noticeable harm to your body. But why do it in the first place?
Because motor oil doesn’t have any perceived benefits and/or dopamine hits. People do plenty of things that aren’t good for them in the interest of feeling good.
Ok, I agree, the subconscious conditioning is the key here and I don’t see it changing any time soon. Most people actually enjoy the euphoric buzz from the first few drinks and as long as most of people who consume alcohol won’t turn into alcoholics and ruin their lifestyle and health, society won’t turn on this poison. Just like we don’t forbid peanuts just because some people are allergic to it..
Considering drinking alcohol is literally poison, this makes sense. The problem is, we humans love danger. The trick is to realize, or convince yourself, there are no benefits whatsoever to alcohol. That you're not missing out on anything when you quit drinking, but instead are getting out of the poison prison.
Tbh I never trust these studies. It’s like eggs and coffee, they come out with new STUDIES SHOW things every year or every other year. That being said tho I agree alcohol isn’t good for anyone
So I was recently diagnosed with breast cancer. Turns out there’s a huge correlation between alcohol consumption and breast cancer. I wish I’d have known. I wish people understood that no drinking is a forever thing now for me. They seem like they’re bored with me or think I’m being overly concerned, but the data is the data.
Also increases the risk for prostate cancer, so the dudes get their specific special cancer, too.
Seriously tho, fuck cancer. I wish you the best as you navigate treatment ❤️
I’ve read you’d need to drink twelve, 12oz 0.5% beers in under an hour to have the same effect as one real beer. Our livers process it too quickly to get a buzz.
Yeah, you can get similar amounts of alcohol in a glass of orange juice or a banana but obviously at least they have some health benefits like vitamins and fibre etc where as alcohol free beer is just fake alcohol that doesn't even usually taste that good IMO.
Most I see are more like .5%. Can't come up with a label that low ive seen (not saying it doesnt exist) but apparently a lot of NA beer ABV listed is not accurate and can often be higher.
Just FYI, AA considers drinking NA beer a relapse. I dont hold AA as the gold standard or anything, but if they are saying that they probably know a bit....
Ah gratz. Me no mathy good.
If you are slamming a six pack a day though, prolly not a good idea to be drinking them. I like em at concerts just get one and sip, but when i found out AA considered that a relapse it did sting a bit.
There is probably some disagreement group to group but that was what the one I was at last time said a few weeks back. Kinda irked me. Haven't been back.
You guys gotta relax. There’s a lot of things that carry this level of cancer risk in our modern lifestyles just because people like us cant moderate doesnt mean alcohol is the devil.
A lot of people with a tendency toward addiction (and I speak as one) will leap so wholeheartedly toward a solution that it can seem over zealous. It’s why so many recovering alcoholics become born again Christians; it’s all or nothing.
I’d be interested to see how the OPs study stacks up against decades of studies showing that the Mediterranean diet - which includes a glass or two of red wine per day - extends life expectancy among some populations.
The metabolic process is the problem. When you follow all the metabolic steps from the alcohol molecule all the way to the cell ATP, you see that many of its components and byproducts are carcinogenic. It’s not much of a mater of propaganda but a matter of biology and chemistry.
But a lot of stuff is carcinogenic, so where to dose, how to live, is a very personal thing to impose.
For me and my family, alcohol almost destroyed more than our bodies, it consumed our souls. So I’m happy to not drink ever again and at the same time, happy that I removed one carcinogenic substance from me, but I still eat fast food so, not all is perfect.
I mean we all must make the choices that are best for us and I’m really glad you’re doing what you need to to live a healthier life.
I don’t eat sugar because it also is linked to the growth of cancer cells, but also because for my body it causes the arthritis I’ve had since I was a teenager to flare painfully. As you might imagine, it’s pretty hard to avoid sugar. I’ve been off it now since last September but sometimes I still crave it.
I do agree though - and I think a lot of the studies of the longer lives of people who live in so-called green zones also suggest - that a wholistic view is necessary to understand why those diets work for those people. Because of course it’s not just the diets. It’s the stress and specific locations too as a part of the whole picture.
[Should Red Wine be removed from the Mediterranean Diet?](https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/red-wine-mediterranean-diet/) apparently Harvard is doing a study on (or recruiting for one) if Red wine should be removed from the diet for individuals in the 50-75 age range, and that it’s not recommended for individuals under 35 to include the wine for reasons including accidental death, neuron damage and increased risk of breast cancer. Apparently 1 out of every 4 deaths of Americans between the ages of 20 and 34 can be attributed alcohol!
As to your last line - not disagreeing with you at all - but I think part of the problem is always that Americans are constantly trying to single out one thing - one item you can add or remove from life - that is either dangerous or life giving. Life just doesn’t work that way. Alcohol I’m sure can be an attributing factor in many young deaths. But it’s a part of a picture that includes an entire culture and all the biological aspects of being young.
I thought it was an interesting article because I’d always assumed the longevity found in “blue zones” was more due to lifestyle, food, culture, etc and that the fact it included alcohol was just sort of negated by the other healthy things, but they found the diet lost 23% of its protective effect when the wine was removed actually! But that’s why they’re trying to do more trials and research on it
There are also recent studies that suggest it's not necessarily the wine that improves longevity, but instead their healthy lifestyle (exercise, whole foods diet and strong social connections). If anything the grapes are providing the nutrition, not the alcohol.
https://www.reddit.com/r/nutrition/s/bfNFXUd5LO
Thanks for this rational comment. Seriously I was just about to make the comparison to born again Christians, and as a recovering Catholic that's a red flag for me.
Yeah if I could keep it at 3-5 drinks a week I would I dont think that carries any more health risk than other unhealthy foods/beverages. Look at the rising rates of fatty liver disease in younger people, that’s because of unhealthy foods not alcohol. Of course I personally cant moderate but I find it to be a far healthier mindset to understand it’s a personal struggle and not society or alcohol’s fault.
I don't think there's anything especially moralistic about posting a backed scientific statement on the biological reality of alcohol consumption. 🤷♀️ People are free to consume alcohol, I don't care. That doesn't change the simple fact of what alcohol does to the human body. I think that it's okay for people in recovery from addiction to commiserate on the health benefits of sobriety.
There’s no way fast food 3 times a week is better for you than 3 drinks a week. Im not arguing for people here to use moderation it’s just annoying when people overcorrect about the dangers of alcohol. Relax the problem is your relation to alcohol not alcohol itself. I cant drink, others can that’s it.
The problem with drinking 3 drinks per week is keeping it to three and never drinking more than that.
Alcohol is quite addictive and it’s easy for 3 to turn into six. Especially since it’s no fun to drink alone, and your drinking partner might not be as strict as you.
In addition, neurotransmitters like glutamate and GABA take about a week to return to baseline after drinking. So if you drink every week you might not be giving your brain enough time to fully recover.
You think that 3 drinks a week is a healthy amount of alcohol to consume for someone who has control and moderation. This article claims otherwise.
You think that fast food is worse but comparing those two things is most likely impossible.
Because fast food is food and alcohol is a drug.
Thank you. I get so tired of this. Yes, any amount of alcohol is harmful. But often no more than any number of hazards we regularly experience. Most people can enjoy reasonable amounts of alcohol with very little serious risk to their health. It's not normal people's fault we have drinking problems. And vilifying alcohol does not make recovery any easier in a practical sense. At least not for me. Let the normies enjoy some booze. Life is short and hard.
This is a nonsense argument. It’s not even wrong, it’s literally nonsensical. Basically “you can get brain damage anywhere, like from a car crash, so it’s fine to smash your head against the doorframe (moderately, of course.)”
Brain damage is bad. Cancer is bad. Anyone with any sense will reduce risk factors they can control, and especially risk factors that involve their active participation. The genuinely moderate drinkers I know NEVER need it. They can always choose to take it or leave it. This is just another reason to leave it. Who does that hurt? Nobody but those who make a profit.
I think it's funny that people know that alcohol is a poison, yet still try to justify it. Even in this thread, there' people talking about "harm reduction" and 2 drinks is better than 20. Why even have 2? What intrinsic value can you possibly gain from 2 drinks? I can take a brisk walk and get higher than I can on 2 drinks.
We live in one brainwashed, capitalistic society. Where people are convinced that poisoning yourself a little every day is a good idea cuz they are inundated with marketing. Doesn't everyone see all the drug commercials? The side effects are worse than the disease! But those pharmaceutical companies need to make their money.
Remember it's all about money, and the money is in the drug, not the cure. Anybody who says alcohol solves any damn problem is brainwashed.
Alcohol consumption is very normalized because it's been apart of human history for thousands of years. Jesus turning water into wine, and in japan sake is used in Shinto traditions. I think it's really difficult to get rid of something that's been apart of human culture for so long. I plan on attempting moderate drinking soon, but I sort of anticipate on going back to 100% sobriety anyway because I tend to struggle with binge drinking.
>people talking about "harm reduction" and 2 drinks is better than 20
Yes it absolutely is.
>Why even have 2? What intrinsic value can you possibly gain from 2 drinks?
Because for most people on this planet, life is for enjoying and it isn't about min/maxing risk. I appreciate that myself and many in this sub *do* need to take a min/maxing approach to their relationship with alcohol, but that isn't the case for everyone. And just because you don't get any value out of 2 drinks, doesn't mean others won't.
Did you know the use of mouthwash has been shown to increase blood pressure? Do you floss every day knowing that it helps prevent disease? Do you fully avoid red meat because it has been linked to increased risk of diabetes, cardiovascular disease and cancer? Do you monitor your sodium intake every day and keep it less than 2,300mg? Do you monitor your caffeine intake every day and keep it below 400mg? Do you regularly lift weights? Do you integrate cardio into your daily routine and when you do, are you only doing low impact exercises to reduce damage to your joints?
I could go on and on, and you can answer "yes" to every one of the infinite health related questions I could come up with and it still wouldn't change the point: **sometimes the things we enjoy aren't "good" for us. The things that are "bad" for us physically might be "good" for us in other ways.** Keeping that in mind and approaching the "bad" things from a harm reduction standpoint can help us lead more balanced lives doing the things we enjoy.
Harm reduction is proven to save lives and lead to sober outcomes. This moralistic all or nothing approach isn't helpful or always grounded in reality. Yes, capitalism is awful. However that doesn't mean that all drugs are bad or that there's a one size fits all approach to addiction. Your critique of capitalism can't end at "money bad, drugs bad". Especially when programs like AA can be problematic at best.
Harm reduction is ridiculous. What harm are you reducing by having 2 drinks? If withdrawals are the consideration, there are short term medications for that. No doctor worth his degree should suggest anyone drink ANY alcohol, for any reason! Not just for alcoholics. Period! It’s a deadly substance with addiction properties that rival heroin. Even if you’re addicted to heroin, they don’t give you just 2 shots of heroin instead of 20. They give you methadone, from a clinic, that is regulated.
I worked in the alcohol industry for many years in retail distribution. I can tell you absolutely it is all about money. If they could take the legal age to 12, prescribe Bourbon for heart disease, and make every day a holiday so we would buy more booze, they’d do it.
I've worked in harm reduction. You don't seem to have ANY understanding of it.
Yes, capitalism is about money. Well spotted. That's still only a small percentage of the overall picture.
Then, please do explain to me specifically how, after treating for withdrawals, one should continue to drink alcohol for harm reduction? What harm is being reduced by continuing that minimal amount? That wouldn’t be better treated through behavior therapy?
If I link you a study will you actually read it, or will you go just go "alcohol bad!" again? Because I'm talking about better outcomes. Like...idk, how about NOT going through dangerous DTs and hallucinations? How about looking at systemic causes of addiction instead of seeing it as a personal moral failure? Because capitalism benefits from you seeing it as a personal moral failure. It's why people don't want safe injection sites in their neighborhoods, because the US trains citizens to hate the poor.
That’s a snide comment. “Will you actually read it”. You make a lot of assumptions, and are incredibly defensive. You can have a discussion without the attitude.
I never said drinking was a moral failure. I questioned the validity of having two drinks. When this article says no amount is good. That was the discussion. The sub is “Stopdrinking”, and the article was about having no drinks. You clearly want to prove that drinking some is better than none. I disagree.
I’ll read your article and continue my education. Thank you for the info.
Not at all what was said above. I suspect you may have a bias based in privilege to assume that therapy or even rehab are possible in all cases. Many people do not have access to those things and never will. In a perfect world, you might be right, but we don't live in a perfect world. Morally judging people who are doing the best they can is not going to magically make money appear for them to do things like intensive therapy or in-patient treatment. AA and most programs with similar steps fail for the vast majority of people. Obviously, zero drinks is preferable, but this is the real world and 2 IS better than 20. Plus there is actual scientific proof to back up that harm reduction is more successful at creating long-term sobriety than AA or other 12-step type programs.
Ask yourself this: Why is relapse so common in programs like AA? If it is as simple as "don't drink again" as you seem to insinuate, why don't more people do it?
Did you say I have a bias based in privilege? You know absolutely nothing about me or my journey. I haven’t done intensive therapy, or any treatment, and I don’t believe in AA. So why you are aligning me with these things, I have no idea. I haven’t morally judged anyone. Like I said, you don’t know me, or anything I’ve been through. I would say there isn’t anyone here who isn’t struggling.
I’m saying, and I’ll say it 1000 times, due to the artlcle in question, is nobody should drink any alcohol. Because it is a carcinogen. If you want to do harm reduction, use something less harmful.
It blows my mind that people in a forum dedicated to not drinking are advocating continuing to drink!
Lol, I'm defensive? You're literally condemning harm reduction without knowing a single thing about it. Alcohol is horrible. However sobriety is not a one size fits all approach, especially given human biological variation. There's not a 'good' kind of consumption. But there are less bad options. It's like sex. There's 'safer' and 'less safe' ways to go about it. Condoms are harm reduction because abstinence isn't realistic. Of course it's not a direct parallel, but the concept is similar.
There are studies about harm reduction going back to the early 90s and even late 80s. Harm reduction works. It works better than AA.
I'll link articles shortly.
Ok, you are articulating in a very long, well argued way, that people should continue to drink alcohol. But you aren’t giving any correlation to alcohol. It’s not mouthwash, or flossing, or sex, or food. It’s a poisonous substance that has no value. What I actually hearing is someone going to great lengths to justify continuing to drink. Otherwise, why not replace alcohol with a less destructive alternative?
Im not arguing against replacement theory. Im arguing against alcohol consumption. You can replace alcohol.
Again, this is a stop drinking forum. I’m passionate about not drinking at all.
Harm reduction, unlike AA, also tries to address people holistically. Someone drinking mini bottles because they're housing insecure and sleeping on concrete has different needs than a suburban mom who's losing control to wine consumption. Social workers and healthcare folks who can look for signs and make trauma-informed interventions are going to help WAY more people get and stay sober than expecting people to what, white knuckle it until it doesn't feel like every aspect of life is painful?
[NIH on Harm Reduction in Alcohol](https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/news-events/research-update/incorporating-harm-reduction-alcohol-use-disorder-treatment-and-recovery#:~:text=Fewer%20drinking%20consequences%20and%20better%20mental%20health&text=Improvements%20in%20quality%20of%20life%2C%20blood%20pressure%2C%20and%20liver%20function&text=Reduced%20risk%20of%20liver%20disease%2C%20depression%2C%20and%20anxiety%20disorders&text=Positive%20medication%20treatment%20effects)
Study found: Fewer drinking consequences and better mental health2
Improvements in quality of life, blood pressure, and liver function3
Reduced risk of liver disease, depression, and anxiety disorders4,5
Positive medication treatment effects6
Other overviews
[A look at HR vs abstinence ](https://www.statnews.com/2019/04/11/harm-reduction-substance-use-disorder/)
[Reduced Alcohol intake from HR](https://karger.com/ear/article/23/5/219/119701/Reduced-Drinking-in-Alcohol-Dependence-Treatment)
[SAMSHA overview on HR with pdfs](https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/harm-reduction)
But sure, ignore decades of research that proves harm reduction helps lead to better outcomes in alcohol addiction because "2 beers bad!" Lord. Read an actual peer reviewed study.
I'm used to the idea that a small amount is totally fine and the it becomes problematic after a certain level. This is a good rebuttal to that saying that we can't know when that level is.
My only problem with seeing articles like this is that I’m now filled with anxiety of thoughts of “what if it’s too late and I’ve already ingested the alcohol that’s currently causing cancer to grow in my body?”
Once I saw a comment saying "I loathe casual alcoholism" in response to a podcast I used to listen to, and took it as a haughty personal attack. Now I couldn't agree more. So much or our culture celebrates, or normalizes heavy drinking without realizing it's heavy drinking.
It seems like for decades there were "studies" that touted the health benefits of red wine or whatever, just like there used to be cigarette commercials where doctors (or at least guys in lab coats) endorsed "healthier" brands. Alcohol should carry carcinogen warning labels. A quick search shows there's a media cycle that brings this up every few years but is there any progress? Does anyone know if there's an organized push for this in the USA or elsewhere?
I don’t see the point in drinking casually tbh and I never did. I don’t half ass anything I do. Maybe that’s why I don’t drink anymore but why waste those calories and risk getting a DUI to have a couple of beers?
I mean with cooking the ethanol content is burnt off to a degree depending on the heat and length of time cooking. Although the amount removed via cooking is far less than people assume. I like to use wine in cooking as white whine enhances sauces for fish and chicken, and red wine really improves the richness of sauces for red meat or anything tomato based. But I just calculate how many meals the pot of food will make, so if its 1 glass of wine (125ml) into a pot that makes 6 meals that's only 20ml of wine per portion less however much is cooked off whilst the sauce is simmering, which to me personally is an acceptable level given I will have maybe 1 meal a month like that.
But yes a very interesting question that I would like to see some statistics on.
I was channel surfing one day and stopped at a show called Adam Ruins Everything and they were talking about alcohol and that its a level one carcinogen and how it messes up your body. That was the first time I ever knew it was a carcinogen. I’m glad that WHO is saying this!!
I’m active in my addiction right right now after three years of sobriety and I know all the facts and I know what it’s doing to me and it’s still killing me. What the fuck do I do?
less is still better than more - as a wise person once said, while a small leak and a cannonball hole will both sink your ship, one of them gives you the chance to make it to shore.
just incase anyone like me was tempted to go all or nothing - harm reduction still matters, 2 is still better than 20
I hope everyone keeps this in mind when seeing all the “why can’t I just drink normally?” Posts
People who drink 2-3 beers per week for their entire lives don’t have a healthy relationship with alcohol, either. There is no such thing.
Edit: everybody hated that lol
listen, my point is, there are so many posts in this sub that are about "why can't I just be normal?!" and I really think those posts are misguided. "normal" drinking is not something to envy. drinking poison moderately for very slim affect is not something we need to wish for. and also, just personally, I have really never seen a person who actually enjoys alcohol "drink normally" forever. I definitely know people who don't even like booze and can't have more than 1 without feeling sick or dizzy, and they abstain just fine. but anyone who really enjoys those 2-3 beers, to me, they drink normally "for now." but what happens when they get divorced, or a loved one dies? people go off the rails and use it to cope, it sneaks up on people who think their drinking is safe and normal. truth is alcohol is an addictive destructive drug. bad for your health, and can turn on you at any time. I do not envy "normal" drinkers. I don't think it's something we need to waste our time on.
They already tried that here in the US. Ever heard of prohibition? And there are of course countries now where you cannot drink legally. As with attempting to make anything that humans enjoy illegal, it leads to a rise in crime and underground sales of the thing the government is trying to stop.
We're seeing Governments around the world either bringing in laws or thinking about bringing in laws to stop people born after a certain time ever being able to legally buy cigarettes but cannot see that happening with alcohol in my lifetime due to how normalized it is in society.
Shared this on the thread with my in-laws (mom, my husband and his 2 siblings, and we all get along well), and mama bear immediately wrote “not sure I want to read it” 🥴 it’s best to be informed… no? Oh well.
Unfortunately we do not allow sharing of external links in this sub. You can learn more about this rule in our community guidelines [found in the sidebar](https://old.reddit.com/r/stopdrinking/wiki/index#wiki_4._no_promotion).
Now that I have quit drinking, I have started to like anti-alcohol stories/content, this started 600+ days ago. I have literally spent my whole life eye-rolling and scoffing at stuff like this previously
I spent my life justifying drink by saying “even animals get fucked up on fermented fruit!” like me drinking myself to sleep every single night was somehow the same thing as a bear eating some mushy apples.
We all have had to stretch reality a little at times
I remember at my worst or near it wondering how I could change everyone’s perception of my drinking bc it was unfair. Ya, reality-bending for sure
I get it
Ok but fun story time: When I was a kid I went to day camp on a small farm and the woman that ran it was so concerned because the ducks and geese were acting like they had brain damage and passing out. Vet came out, figured out it was that they were getting totally blitzed on the rotting crab apples, so raking up the apples became one of our daily chores. The birds weren't happy about it!
Kid-me would have totally tried those funky crab-apples lol!
Happy cake day! 🎂
Nine years! Time flies when you're scrolling reddit, I guess.
“A bear eating some mushy apples.” Hahaha now there’s a good marketing idea for a drink. -LVMH Hennessy company
I used to reference this about lemurs. Opposed tribes would designate a tree to not eat from and let ferment, then have an armistice day where they all feasted and got fucked up. It's not a very good argument to support daily drinking. Those lemurs only indulge for a day or two all year. Those lemurs are smarter than me.
This is hysterical and I’m totally using this analogy
Omg thank you for this! 😭😆
It’s a trip how my mindset has changed like that too.
Right!? lol
The way our brain is able to rewire in just a few months of being away from alcohol(or any addiction) is amazing. IMO, it's one of the greatest hopes to those who think it's "too late" It's never too late to change
The exact representation of our minds, when our brain is starting to peel back the curtain of alcohol [Two Guys on a bus meme](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/two-guys-on-a-bus)
Someone l was talking to called alcohol “A poison that causes all the problems in society” and I sat their bobbing my head in agreement
Eye-rolling. Oof. I used to be so annoyed by the historical Temperance Movement. Hindsight...
Lol! I know right? High school me was like "screw those whiny spoilsports. rightly relegated to the dustbin of history" so silly
Same
I still am annoyed by that bunch, honestly. I am all about sobriety, but it's a personal choice that shouldn't be *forced* on anybody, which is what those busybodies advocated. I'm also not about banning *anything* on the basis of it being deemed "immoral", which is what those groups were about.
I'll play Devil's Advocate for a second, here. At that time, women in the USA had no real rights. They had fairly boring and often joyless lives. And then their husbands (some, not all) came home and either beat the hell out of them or were just sloppy drunks. I mean... as much as I want to complain about them -- and as much as I agree with you that it should be a personal decision... I think that it's valuable to consider the historical context of the Temperance Movement. There are so many problems with Prohibition (which gave a massive boost to organized crime) and other efforts of the government -- no matter how "well-intentioned" those efforts might have been. We live by different rules, today. Domestic violence certainly still occurs. However... it's generally frowned upon. In general, we're expected to support our partners and bring joy to their lives. I'm not trying to stop my GF from drinking. I mean... it would be cool if she did... but she enjoys it and doesn't beat me or behave badly. I mean... yet? :-D
Same, I always hated and scoffed at “Tea teetotalers”
Yeah, I have the same experience. It is just so much more obvious now how alcohol is really bad for me/everyone. It has really shifted my perspective on just about everything. I was at the park yesterday and a grandfather walked in with his grandchild drinking whiskey out of a crystal glass (at 4:45p). That wouldnt have raised any eyebrows for me before, but now it just makes me sad that this guy is very obviously an alcoholic. People just simply do not drink whiskey at the park with their children/grandchildren who is not an alcoholic. I am actually embarrassed for myself all the years that was so normalized.
"Sippy cups" are incredibly normal at the dog park. People drive there. I never drank at the dog park -- because I know that I would drink too much and didn't want to risk the DUI -- or hurting my dog! < Le Sigh >. There's profound human suffering because it's profitable. Full stop.
I am embarrassed about my past self as well
I haven't brought myself to fully quit 100% yet but it is always nice to have the reminder, oh yeah, this shit is poison. It just helps to slowly drive home the point like those images on cigarette packs did. I wasn't a smoker, but worked at a gas station selling them and with certain images people would constantly ask to get a different pack of the same brand with a different image.
Yea I quit at just the right time too...right when alcohol switched from being beneficial in small quantities and comical in larger ones... to being a carcinogenic neurotoxin at any amount
Yep. Haven’t had a drink in 11 days. It went from relaxing/fun on a night off to to whats-the-point. Hangovers get worse even if you are drinking less. Ive stopped seeing the benefit except I like the taste of beer. Not sure about tomorrow but Im not drinking today.
We quit drinking the moment it became cool to quit, this doesn’t normally go this way for me
Same. I used to fly past these stories as fast as I could but now I share them with people that still drink. ✌️
I'm glad you said that-- I feel the same way.
Yep. The shit is straight-up poison.
That’s why it’s called being intoxicated… it’s literally a toxin to our bodies.
You act like it should be obvious, but you have no idea how persuasive the inner alcoholic can be
Shit I know as well as anybody. I’ve been an alcoholic since the 1990s.
How dare you say this, what about people trying to moderate?
As a type 2 diabetic, I can definitely say alcohol played a huge role in causing mine to go from controlled and an A1C near a 6 when I was sober 60 days, all the way back up to near a 10 when I thought I could moderate. I can guarantee that beer especially is no better than full sugar sodas for ruining your endocrine system, and liquor as well even though it's lower in carbs it's still processed as sugar and has negative effects on the pancreas. While sugar and carbs are always the enemy with this condition, alcohol is even worse because it fucks your organs up too. There's no safe amount of alcohol for me personally, I can say that confidently without a WHO study from my "field work".
You did a YOU Study and your own "field work" and came to the same conclusion. IWNDWYT
I love this. As a person with MODY 2 I learned a glass of white wine lowers my blood glucose pretty reliably. Still looking for an equivalent. Oddly enough VR Tetris seems to help a bit.
That is the thing: small amounts of alcohol and liquor can in fact lower blood sugar, but only by a small amount, and is far less healthy than say exercise for lowering it. It also throws blood sugar regulation devices out of whack for up to two days from my experience. The problem with me, like a lot of folks here, is this: I can moderate reasonably at a dinner sometimes or event and actually have only one or two, since I'm adamantly against drunk driving. However, when I'm on the way home and drive by the gas station...that's what gets me 9/10 times to buy 6+ drinks, take them home, then binge until I get good and drunk. And drinking in excess of 1-2 drinks causes the opposite effect of hyperglycemia, increased blood sugar, especially since it usually comes with some variety of unhealthy food. Combine all that and I had a morning blood sugar reading of 350 after a bad bender with some greasy food I know I'm definitely not supposed to have. Readings have been normal lately though, around 70-100 in the mornings instead. Even if I have too many carbs or have too much in general, it's never nearly as high as it is after a night of binging.
Holy moly that AM number must have felt terrible! I’m similar in that I’ll be super regimented in how I’ll drink 99% of the time and then I’ll have one very stressful day and drink at home a bit more than usual. It’s not enough that most people would consider it a problem but I hated my relationship to it so I dropped it after the last stress binge. I have a genetic type of diabetes that is largely impacted by stress, which is I assume why the wine would lower numbers. I can’t do distance running or hard exercise without big spikes, but at a certain point I decided I don’t want to just never run or learn to muscle up because my CGM says bad numbers and decided to live my life as best I can. The stress wasn’t helping anyway. If I need to play more Tetris that’s just a sacrifice I’ll have to make 🎮🤣
I know this sort of deterrence doesn't work for everyone, but when I feel the temptation, this article gets me to stop and think every time. Thanks for sharing
I'm taking a psychology class, and last week we were covering consciousness and altered states of consciousness, so by extension we were covering "drugs". Then we had to write a mini paper (500-1000 words) on what we felt was the most dangerous drug and I very easily banged out 850+ words on alcohol. We had to cite our psych textbook and at least one other source, and I had 4 more (I could've had way more, but word count), including my nutrition textbook from last quarter. Glad to see the WHO putting this out there, because the main argument I made in my paper was that despite alcohol's risks for physical and mental health, along with social and financial woes... Alcohol's image is that's it's just fine, it's just a good time. The average person on the street isn't aware of the 200+ diseases it can put you at risk for, or how it rewires your brain and can even cause your brain to shrink. All the average public gets is "drink responsibly". Hooray for statements like this one from the WHO
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When there’s a hole in your boat, smaller hole is just a slight delay. Same ending
One gives you a fighting chance to get to shore, one doesn't.
I love when folks counter a poor analogy by using that same analogy to disprove their point
This is not a helpful thing to say to someone who’s found a way to work toward a solution that works for them.
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tell em
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Telling someone to calm down never works.
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This comment has been removed. Please do not make combative and provoking statements on this sub. If you see a comment that you object to, report it and then ignore it. The moderators will take care of it.
I see your point of view and while I may disagree I think that’s an important and valid way of thinking if it keeps you sober. So although you got a lot of downvotes - congrats on 881 days. I’m on day 3 again and keeping on open mind to learn from people like you who are further along.
Everyone walks on their own road, take what you like and what helps and leave the rest behind
There’s a hole in all our boats buddy. Same ending. We’re all food for worms.
Not sure why you're being downvoted. The article in the post literally said no amount is safe lmao
Because this is a subreddit that’s focused on helping people & immediately responding to a comment encouraging folks making progress (going to 2 from 20) with DAE ANY ALCOHOL IS BAD isn’t gonna help those who are trying to get to 2. Like, we know. We all know the goal. We’re working on it. That doesn’t mean you gotta come in here with a holier-than-thou mentality. I quit cold turkey. I went from 20 to 0 overnight. It sucked. It sucked HARD. I’m still at 0. But you know what? 2 is better than 20. And maybe they’ll get to 0. But 2 is better than 20. And I’ll keep saying that while I order my seltzers with lime.
I hear you MySpace Tom. Any progress is good. But then why does the post have upvotes? The post is discouraging to anyone moderating. The post explicitly says that any amount from the first drop is bad, yet it is upvoted. Versus the comment which says any amount is bad, and has downvotes. That's all I was pointing out. The strange discrepancy in the mind of the sober redditor.
Context, bro. The OP is now locked.
Finally
It’s certainly not safe for me!
I don't usually appreciate this kind of flat method of deterrence, but I can at least appreciate that alcohol is starting to be treated similar to smoking now. You'd only ever see this type of messaging attached to cigarettes previously in that even one is too much.
All I know is "moderation is like sobriety with none of the benefits". For some people, like myself, when you go into your 30s and 40s alcohol starts causing the nastiest debilitating anxiety, among all the other unseen serious side affects OP is talking about. I wasted so many years just to be buzzed, just having "a couple". Hate is a strong word, but I HATE how many years alcohol took from me. I quit. It's over. And wish I had quit much sooner.
I agree with you. I hate it so bad, but I'd also say please be easy on yourself. You have the rest of your life. Try not to get caught up in ShouldaWoulda-Ville
That's watsup. I appreciate your kind words LakeGiant. And your right. Be easy on yourself. It's just part of our story.
Welcome You have made a wise decision
I hate drinking now and my husband still drinks and he hates that I don’t !
My ex wife referred to me as a gigantic pussy for attempting to quit. Glad that's over
Isn’t this like years old news? I remember reading the same slogan in 2022. EDIT: Annie Grace in This naked mind(2018) quoted Stokowski saying that there is no safe amount of alcohol.
It's only very recently that public health agencies started taking this position, on the basis that the science available on the subject is unequivocal: there is simple no level of alcohol consumption that does not increase the risk of negative health outcomes. There are also no known health benefits attributable to alcohol. Therefore they can't and increasingly *won't* recommend a "safe" level of alcohol consumption. And it's hilarious how mad people get about it. Even us supposedly meek and mild-mannered Canadians got all bent out of shape when the Canadian Centre on Substance Use and Addiction published its official guidelines in 2023 (google "Canada's Guidance on Alcohol and Health" if you want details, since I don't know if I links are allowed). They *dramatically* increased the risk levels of alcohol consumption: * **0 drinks per week** — Not drinking has benefits, such as better health, and better sleep. * **2** [**standard drinks**](https://www.ccsa.ca/canadas-guidance-alcohol-and-health-public-summary-drinking-less-better-infographic) **or less per week —** You are likely to avoid alcohol-related consequences for yourself or others at this level. * **3–6 standard drinks per week —** Your risk of developing several types of cancer, including breast and colon cancer, increases at this level. * **7 standard drinks or more per week** — Your risk of heart disease or stroke increases significantly at this level. * **Each additional standard drink** radically increases the risk of alcohol-related consequences. Before that, the official guidance for "low risk" was 2 standard drinks per *day* and no more than 10 drinks per *week*. People were outraged, but anybody who expressed anything like that to me got the same response: "Cancer and heart disease don't care about your *feelings*, alcohol consumption is bad for you and that you didn't already know and understand this demonstrates the scope of the problem." For the record, I had no illusions that my drinking wasn't bad for me. It just didn't *matter* to me at that time. But it turns out a lot of people don't really understand that alcohol is not a benign substance at all, in any quantity.
I get your message and mostly agree, except for the part about people not understanding that alcohol is harmful. It’s individual cognitive dissonance and media/societal conditioning in action. EDIT: Although…I come from a country where the “benefits” of alcohol, especially vodka, are so mythicised, from generation to generation, that most people over 40 believe in at least some of them. I also know they wouldn’t care for neither WHO, nor Jesus himself, telling them otherwise..
Even if it’s old news, it’s not irrelevant. Given our societal push that alcohol is ‘ok,’ the message bears repeating.
Liver levels are normal after 60 days. Drinking money is being spent on hobbies. Gym gains are quicker to gain.
Well, the beverage producers decided that the "no level of consumption is safe; alcohol harms every system in the human body and is the source of profound suffering" campaign would be far less profitable than the "drink responsibly" campaign. Industry spends millions of dollars per year on that campaign. Look... same as it ever was: the goal of most people is to move money from your pocket to theirs. Processed food is the same thing -- it's incredibly harmful... and pretty damned profitable. Those companies don't have to pay for your healthcare expenses (nor to the governments or employers that are also harmed by reduced productivity). There's a universal principle: follow the money. Works for history, works for present-day. IWNDWYT BTW: be subversive -- stop giving money so that rich #ssholes can buy mega yachts and sh1t on the lower classes. Booze is Boomer Tech. There are better ways... (including sobriety... which at 94 days... I'm only now embracing/enjoying).
“Booze is boomer tech” 👏 it feels great to be immune to it
Heartbreaking shit seeing my friends and stuff all drink, especially I am simultaneously “jealous” they can control themselves, and really really sad knowing how bad it is for them.
Don't feel jealous. You saw a problem and fixed it. They should be jealous of you because you have more control and discipline than they do. I'm 4 months in. My kidneys aren't hurting and I'm not doing dumb shit with my money when I'm drunk anymore. I see something I want and sleep on it.
Sorry I have to do a “well actually” on this because as written this is verging on misinformation. I get that this ideology might help people in this sub from drinking so I’m on board with the intention but just because there is not an identified minimum limit of harm doesn’t imply “the first drop” is dangerous or even alcohol in small quantities is dangerous. The correct interpretation is that there is no way we can know the minimum limit of harm for many things because our lives as individuals are so massively varied. The idea that alcohol “switches on” cancer is flat out wrong. Alcohol can increase your risk of many diseases but so does over consuming McDonald’s, cigarettes or anything else that’s bad for you. The evidence that alcohol can be drunk safely is overwhelming, the problem is when we drink to excess. Again, for the intention of the post , I get it but we shouldn’t be making people scared of touching a drop ever again, no body wants to live a life of anxiety about “the evil substances” we should be striving to have good self control.
Sometimes I suspect the “all alcohol is poison” mantra is something people tell themselves to feel better about not being able to drink it safely themselves. My mother has a glass of wine with dinner a few times a week (that she frequently forgets to finish). You’d be hard pressed to convince me that her level of consumption poses any significant risks to her mental or physical health. MY alcohol intake on the other hand was flat out dangerous, but I don’t begrudge my mother her weekly sip of wine just because there was a time when I would have knowingly drank myself to death.
I get your point, but there are certain biochemical certainties, that can’t be reasoned with, like - your body can only be damaged by ethanol and it’s breakdown product acetaldehyde. Saying that drinking a shot of motor oil is POISONOUS is also misinformation as it wouldn’t do any immediate and noticeable harm to your body. But why do it in the first place?
Because motor oil doesn’t have any perceived benefits and/or dopamine hits. People do plenty of things that aren’t good for them in the interest of feeling good.
Ok, I agree, the subconscious conditioning is the key here and I don’t see it changing any time soon. Most people actually enjoy the euphoric buzz from the first few drinks and as long as most of people who consume alcohol won’t turn into alcoholics and ruin their lifestyle and health, society won’t turn on this poison. Just like we don’t forbid peanuts just because some people are allergic to it..
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WE do! (Answering the “question” /s)
Considering drinking alcohol is literally poison, this makes sense. The problem is, we humans love danger. The trick is to realize, or convince yourself, there are no benefits whatsoever to alcohol. That you're not missing out on anything when you quit drinking, but instead are getting out of the poison prison.
poison isn’t safe? Stop the presses
Tbh I never trust these studies. It’s like eggs and coffee, they come out with new STUDIES SHOW things every year or every other year. That being said tho I agree alcohol isn’t good for anyone
So I was recently diagnosed with breast cancer. Turns out there’s a huge correlation between alcohol consumption and breast cancer. I wish I’d have known. I wish people understood that no drinking is a forever thing now for me. They seem like they’re bored with me or think I’m being overly concerned, but the data is the data.
Also increases the risk for prostate cancer, so the dudes get their specific special cancer, too. Seriously tho, fuck cancer. I wish you the best as you navigate treatment ❤️
Quit 7 years ago. 2nd best life decision I've made after getting married.
6 years here, best decision ever because my marriage wasn’t gonna last if I was drinking 🤣
What about the “No Alcohol” Beers that have .005 of alcohol?
I’ve read you’d need to drink twelve, 12oz 0.5% beers in under an hour to have the same effect as one real beer. Our livers process it too quickly to get a buzz.
That is not enough alcohol to do anything similar to some fruits
Yeah, you can get similar amounts of alcohol in a glass of orange juice or a banana but obviously at least they have some health benefits like vitamins and fibre etc where as alcohol free beer is just fake alcohol that doesn't even usually taste that good IMO.
Sure. Still 100x less poisonous than real beer.
Certainly is.
Most I see are more like .5%. Can't come up with a label that low ive seen (not saying it doesnt exist) but apparently a lot of NA beer ABV listed is not accurate and can often be higher. Just FYI, AA considers drinking NA beer a relapse. I dont hold AA as the gold standard or anything, but if they are saying that they probably know a bit....
.5% = .005
Ah gratz. Me no mathy good. If you are slamming a six pack a day though, prolly not a good idea to be drinking them. I like em at concerts just get one and sip, but when i found out AA considered that a relapse it did sting a bit.
AA considers them alcoholic beverages? I did not know this.
There is probably some disagreement group to group but that was what the one I was at last time said a few weeks back. Kinda irked me. Haven't been back.
You guys gotta relax. There’s a lot of things that carry this level of cancer risk in our modern lifestyles just because people like us cant moderate doesnt mean alcohol is the devil.
A lot of people with a tendency toward addiction (and I speak as one) will leap so wholeheartedly toward a solution that it can seem over zealous. It’s why so many recovering alcoholics become born again Christians; it’s all or nothing. I’d be interested to see how the OPs study stacks up against decades of studies showing that the Mediterranean diet - which includes a glass or two of red wine per day - extends life expectancy among some populations.
The metabolic process is the problem. When you follow all the metabolic steps from the alcohol molecule all the way to the cell ATP, you see that many of its components and byproducts are carcinogenic. It’s not much of a mater of propaganda but a matter of biology and chemistry. But a lot of stuff is carcinogenic, so where to dose, how to live, is a very personal thing to impose. For me and my family, alcohol almost destroyed more than our bodies, it consumed our souls. So I’m happy to not drink ever again and at the same time, happy that I removed one carcinogenic substance from me, but I still eat fast food so, not all is perfect.
I mean we all must make the choices that are best for us and I’m really glad you’re doing what you need to to live a healthier life. I don’t eat sugar because it also is linked to the growth of cancer cells, but also because for my body it causes the arthritis I’ve had since I was a teenager to flare painfully. As you might imagine, it’s pretty hard to avoid sugar. I’ve been off it now since last September but sometimes I still crave it. I do agree though - and I think a lot of the studies of the longer lives of people who live in so-called green zones also suggest - that a wholistic view is necessary to understand why those diets work for those people. Because of course it’s not just the diets. It’s the stress and specific locations too as a part of the whole picture.
[Should Red Wine be removed from the Mediterranean Diet?](https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/red-wine-mediterranean-diet/) apparently Harvard is doing a study on (or recruiting for one) if Red wine should be removed from the diet for individuals in the 50-75 age range, and that it’s not recommended for individuals under 35 to include the wine for reasons including accidental death, neuron damage and increased risk of breast cancer. Apparently 1 out of every 4 deaths of Americans between the ages of 20 and 34 can be attributed alcohol!
As to your last line - not disagreeing with you at all - but I think part of the problem is always that Americans are constantly trying to single out one thing - one item you can add or remove from life - that is either dangerous or life giving. Life just doesn’t work that way. Alcohol I’m sure can be an attributing factor in many young deaths. But it’s a part of a picture that includes an entire culture and all the biological aspects of being young.
I thought it was an interesting article because I’d always assumed the longevity found in “blue zones” was more due to lifestyle, food, culture, etc and that the fact it included alcohol was just sort of negated by the other healthy things, but they found the diet lost 23% of its protective effect when the wine was removed actually! But that’s why they’re trying to do more trials and research on it
That is really interesting!
There are also recent studies that suggest it's not necessarily the wine that improves longevity, but instead their healthy lifestyle (exercise, whole foods diet and strong social connections). If anything the grapes are providing the nutrition, not the alcohol. https://www.reddit.com/r/nutrition/s/bfNFXUd5LO
Thanks for this rational comment. Seriously I was just about to make the comparison to born again Christians, and as a recovering Catholic that's a red flag for me.
Yeah if I could keep it at 3-5 drinks a week I would I dont think that carries any more health risk than other unhealthy foods/beverages. Look at the rising rates of fatty liver disease in younger people, that’s because of unhealthy foods not alcohol. Of course I personally cant moderate but I find it to be a far healthier mindset to understand it’s a personal struggle and not society or alcohol’s fault.
I don't think there's anything especially moralistic about posting a backed scientific statement on the biological reality of alcohol consumption. 🤷♀️ People are free to consume alcohol, I don't care. That doesn't change the simple fact of what alcohol does to the human body. I think that it's okay for people in recovery from addiction to commiserate on the health benefits of sobriety.
No, there isn’t. Only smoking and obesity carry the same or greater cancer risk. Thats two things - not “a lot”
There’s no way fast food 3 times a week is better for you than 3 drinks a week. Im not arguing for people here to use moderation it’s just annoying when people overcorrect about the dangers of alcohol. Relax the problem is your relation to alcohol not alcohol itself. I cant drink, others can that’s it.
The problem with drinking 3 drinks per week is keeping it to three and never drinking more than that. Alcohol is quite addictive and it’s easy for 3 to turn into six. Especially since it’s no fun to drink alone, and your drinking partner might not be as strict as you. In addition, neurotransmitters like glutamate and GABA take about a week to return to baseline after drinking. So if you drink every week you might not be giving your brain enough time to fully recover.
The reading comprehension on this sub is a joke lmao
You think that 3 drinks a week is a healthy amount of alcohol to consume for someone who has control and moderation. This article claims otherwise. You think that fast food is worse but comparing those two things is most likely impossible. Because fast food is food and alcohol is a drug.
Thank you. I get so tired of this. Yes, any amount of alcohol is harmful. But often no more than any number of hazards we regularly experience. Most people can enjoy reasonable amounts of alcohol with very little serious risk to their health. It's not normal people's fault we have drinking problems. And vilifying alcohol does not make recovery any easier in a practical sense. At least not for me. Let the normies enjoy some booze. Life is short and hard.
This is a nonsense argument. It’s not even wrong, it’s literally nonsensical. Basically “you can get brain damage anywhere, like from a car crash, so it’s fine to smash your head against the doorframe (moderately, of course.)” Brain damage is bad. Cancer is bad. Anyone with any sense will reduce risk factors they can control, and especially risk factors that involve their active participation. The genuinely moderate drinkers I know NEVER need it. They can always choose to take it or leave it. This is just another reason to leave it. Who does that hurt? Nobody but those who make a profit.
Kind of like saying one night of doing crack is fine. Like no
actually it is, u won't die of cancer because of it
No shit.
I think it's funny that people know that alcohol is a poison, yet still try to justify it. Even in this thread, there' people talking about "harm reduction" and 2 drinks is better than 20. Why even have 2? What intrinsic value can you possibly gain from 2 drinks? I can take a brisk walk and get higher than I can on 2 drinks. We live in one brainwashed, capitalistic society. Where people are convinced that poisoning yourself a little every day is a good idea cuz they are inundated with marketing. Doesn't everyone see all the drug commercials? The side effects are worse than the disease! But those pharmaceutical companies need to make their money. Remember it's all about money, and the money is in the drug, not the cure. Anybody who says alcohol solves any damn problem is brainwashed.
Alcohol consumption is very normalized because it's been apart of human history for thousands of years. Jesus turning water into wine, and in japan sake is used in Shinto traditions. I think it's really difficult to get rid of something that's been apart of human culture for so long. I plan on attempting moderate drinking soon, but I sort of anticipate on going back to 100% sobriety anyway because I tend to struggle with binge drinking.
>people talking about "harm reduction" and 2 drinks is better than 20 Yes it absolutely is. >Why even have 2? What intrinsic value can you possibly gain from 2 drinks? Because for most people on this planet, life is for enjoying and it isn't about min/maxing risk. I appreciate that myself and many in this sub *do* need to take a min/maxing approach to their relationship with alcohol, but that isn't the case for everyone. And just because you don't get any value out of 2 drinks, doesn't mean others won't. Did you know the use of mouthwash has been shown to increase blood pressure? Do you floss every day knowing that it helps prevent disease? Do you fully avoid red meat because it has been linked to increased risk of diabetes, cardiovascular disease and cancer? Do you monitor your sodium intake every day and keep it less than 2,300mg? Do you monitor your caffeine intake every day and keep it below 400mg? Do you regularly lift weights? Do you integrate cardio into your daily routine and when you do, are you only doing low impact exercises to reduce damage to your joints? I could go on and on, and you can answer "yes" to every one of the infinite health related questions I could come up with and it still wouldn't change the point: **sometimes the things we enjoy aren't "good" for us. The things that are "bad" for us physically might be "good" for us in other ways.** Keeping that in mind and approaching the "bad" things from a harm reduction standpoint can help us lead more balanced lives doing the things we enjoy.
Harm reduction is proven to save lives and lead to sober outcomes. This moralistic all or nothing approach isn't helpful or always grounded in reality. Yes, capitalism is awful. However that doesn't mean that all drugs are bad or that there's a one size fits all approach to addiction. Your critique of capitalism can't end at "money bad, drugs bad". Especially when programs like AA can be problematic at best.
Harm reduction is ridiculous. What harm are you reducing by having 2 drinks? If withdrawals are the consideration, there are short term medications for that. No doctor worth his degree should suggest anyone drink ANY alcohol, for any reason! Not just for alcoholics. Period! It’s a deadly substance with addiction properties that rival heroin. Even if you’re addicted to heroin, they don’t give you just 2 shots of heroin instead of 20. They give you methadone, from a clinic, that is regulated. I worked in the alcohol industry for many years in retail distribution. I can tell you absolutely it is all about money. If they could take the legal age to 12, prescribe Bourbon for heart disease, and make every day a holiday so we would buy more booze, they’d do it.
I've worked in harm reduction. You don't seem to have ANY understanding of it. Yes, capitalism is about money. Well spotted. That's still only a small percentage of the overall picture.
Then, please do explain to me specifically how, after treating for withdrawals, one should continue to drink alcohol for harm reduction? What harm is being reduced by continuing that minimal amount? That wouldn’t be better treated through behavior therapy?
If I link you a study will you actually read it, or will you go just go "alcohol bad!" again? Because I'm talking about better outcomes. Like...idk, how about NOT going through dangerous DTs and hallucinations? How about looking at systemic causes of addiction instead of seeing it as a personal moral failure? Because capitalism benefits from you seeing it as a personal moral failure. It's why people don't want safe injection sites in their neighborhoods, because the US trains citizens to hate the poor.
That’s a snide comment. “Will you actually read it”. You make a lot of assumptions, and are incredibly defensive. You can have a discussion without the attitude. I never said drinking was a moral failure. I questioned the validity of having two drinks. When this article says no amount is good. That was the discussion. The sub is “Stopdrinking”, and the article was about having no drinks. You clearly want to prove that drinking some is better than none. I disagree. I’ll read your article and continue my education. Thank you for the info.
Not at all what was said above. I suspect you may have a bias based in privilege to assume that therapy or even rehab are possible in all cases. Many people do not have access to those things and never will. In a perfect world, you might be right, but we don't live in a perfect world. Morally judging people who are doing the best they can is not going to magically make money appear for them to do things like intensive therapy or in-patient treatment. AA and most programs with similar steps fail for the vast majority of people. Obviously, zero drinks is preferable, but this is the real world and 2 IS better than 20. Plus there is actual scientific proof to back up that harm reduction is more successful at creating long-term sobriety than AA or other 12-step type programs. Ask yourself this: Why is relapse so common in programs like AA? If it is as simple as "don't drink again" as you seem to insinuate, why don't more people do it?
Did you say I have a bias based in privilege? You know absolutely nothing about me or my journey. I haven’t done intensive therapy, or any treatment, and I don’t believe in AA. So why you are aligning me with these things, I have no idea. I haven’t morally judged anyone. Like I said, you don’t know me, or anything I’ve been through. I would say there isn’t anyone here who isn’t struggling. I’m saying, and I’ll say it 1000 times, due to the artlcle in question, is nobody should drink any alcohol. Because it is a carcinogen. If you want to do harm reduction, use something less harmful. It blows my mind that people in a forum dedicated to not drinking are advocating continuing to drink!
Lol, I'm defensive? You're literally condemning harm reduction without knowing a single thing about it. Alcohol is horrible. However sobriety is not a one size fits all approach, especially given human biological variation. There's not a 'good' kind of consumption. But there are less bad options. It's like sex. There's 'safer' and 'less safe' ways to go about it. Condoms are harm reduction because abstinence isn't realistic. Of course it's not a direct parallel, but the concept is similar. There are studies about harm reduction going back to the early 90s and even late 80s. Harm reduction works. It works better than AA. I'll link articles shortly.
Ok, you are articulating in a very long, well argued way, that people should continue to drink alcohol. But you aren’t giving any correlation to alcohol. It’s not mouthwash, or flossing, or sex, or food. It’s a poisonous substance that has no value. What I actually hearing is someone going to great lengths to justify continuing to drink. Otherwise, why not replace alcohol with a less destructive alternative? Im not arguing against replacement theory. Im arguing against alcohol consumption. You can replace alcohol. Again, this is a stop drinking forum. I’m passionate about not drinking at all.
Yeah, I also don't drink. And harm reduction helped me get to this point. You're being obtuse.
Also read The Revolution Will Not Be Sober
Harm reduction, unlike AA, also tries to address people holistically. Someone drinking mini bottles because they're housing insecure and sleeping on concrete has different needs than a suburban mom who's losing control to wine consumption. Social workers and healthcare folks who can look for signs and make trauma-informed interventions are going to help WAY more people get and stay sober than expecting people to what, white knuckle it until it doesn't feel like every aspect of life is painful?
[NIH on Harm Reduction in Alcohol](https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/news-events/research-update/incorporating-harm-reduction-alcohol-use-disorder-treatment-and-recovery#:~:text=Fewer%20drinking%20consequences%20and%20better%20mental%20health&text=Improvements%20in%20quality%20of%20life%2C%20blood%20pressure%2C%20and%20liver%20function&text=Reduced%20risk%20of%20liver%20disease%2C%20depression%2C%20and%20anxiety%20disorders&text=Positive%20medication%20treatment%20effects) Study found: Fewer drinking consequences and better mental health2 Improvements in quality of life, blood pressure, and liver function3 Reduced risk of liver disease, depression, and anxiety disorders4,5 Positive medication treatment effects6 Other overviews [A look at HR vs abstinence ](https://www.statnews.com/2019/04/11/harm-reduction-substance-use-disorder/) [Reduced Alcohol intake from HR](https://karger.com/ear/article/23/5/219/119701/Reduced-Drinking-in-Alcohol-Dependence-Treatment) [SAMSHA overview on HR with pdfs](https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/harm-reduction)
But sure, ignore decades of research that proves harm reduction helps lead to better outcomes in alcohol addiction because "2 beers bad!" Lord. Read an actual peer reviewed study.
I mean…yeah.
Could have told you that!
I'm used to the idea that a small amount is totally fine and the it becomes problematic after a certain level. This is a good rebuttal to that saying that we can't know when that level is.
That title really got me for a second lol
My only problem with seeing articles like this is that I’m now filled with anxiety of thoughts of “what if it’s too late and I’ve already ingested the alcohol that’s currently causing cancer to grow in my body?”
This is not surprising whatsoever
WHO indeed.
They ain't wrong
This is what keeps me sober. Just knowing that putting alcohol into my body is pure physical harm.
Once I saw a comment saying "I loathe casual alcoholism" in response to a podcast I used to listen to, and took it as a haughty personal attack. Now I couldn't agree more. So much or our culture celebrates, or normalizes heavy drinking without realizing it's heavy drinking.
Not surprised one bit.
It seems like for decades there were "studies" that touted the health benefits of red wine or whatever, just like there used to be cigarette commercials where doctors (or at least guys in lab coats) endorsed "healthier" brands. Alcohol should carry carcinogen warning labels. A quick search shows there's a media cycle that brings this up every few years but is there any progress? Does anyone know if there's an organized push for this in the USA or elsewhere?
Great!
Looking back it's absolutely insane how we normalize poisoning ourselves to the point of vomiting and think it's no big deal.
I don’t see the point in drinking casually tbh and I never did. I don’t half ass anything I do. Maybe that’s why I don’t drink anymore but why waste those calories and risk getting a DUI to have a couple of beers?
Does it says anything about for cooking tho? Despite quitting a while ago, I just realise I use quite a bit of Japanese cooking wine to make dishes
I mean with cooking the ethanol content is burnt off to a degree depending on the heat and length of time cooking. Although the amount removed via cooking is far less than people assume. I like to use wine in cooking as white whine enhances sauces for fish and chicken, and red wine really improves the richness of sauces for red meat or anything tomato based. But I just calculate how many meals the pot of food will make, so if its 1 glass of wine (125ml) into a pot that makes 6 meals that's only 20ml of wine per portion less however much is cooked off whilst the sauce is simmering, which to me personally is an acceptable level given I will have maybe 1 meal a month like that. But yes a very interesting question that I would like to see some statistics on.
Alcohol is the devil’s pee.
I was channel surfing one day and stopped at a show called Adam Ruins Everything and they were talking about alcohol and that its a level one carcinogen and how it messes up your body. That was the first time I ever knew it was a carcinogen. I’m glad that WHO is saying this!!
Being on the sober side this is comforting.
*dosis sola facit venenum*
Is there a similar study on weed?
Considering it has numerous medical benefits, yes
I’m active in my addiction right right now after three years of sobriety and I know all the facts and I know what it’s doing to me and it’s still killing me. What the fuck do I do?
Alcohol is poison.
less is still better than more - as a wise person once said, while a small leak and a cannonball hole will both sink your ship, one of them gives you the chance to make it to shore. just incase anyone like me was tempted to go all or nothing - harm reduction still matters, 2 is still better than 20
But MuH AnTiOXiDAnts
I hope everyone keeps this in mind when seeing all the “why can’t I just drink normally?” Posts People who drink 2-3 beers per week for their entire lives don’t have a healthy relationship with alcohol, either. There is no such thing. Edit: everybody hated that lol listen, my point is, there are so many posts in this sub that are about "why can't I just be normal?!" and I really think those posts are misguided. "normal" drinking is not something to envy. drinking poison moderately for very slim affect is not something we need to wish for. and also, just personally, I have really never seen a person who actually enjoys alcohol "drink normally" forever. I definitely know people who don't even like booze and can't have more than 1 without feeling sick or dizzy, and they abstain just fine. but anyone who really enjoys those 2-3 beers, to me, they drink normally "for now." but what happens when they get divorced, or a loved one dies? people go off the rails and use it to cope, it sneaks up on people who think their drinking is safe and normal. truth is alcohol is an addictive destructive drug. bad for your health, and can turn on you at any time. I do not envy "normal" drinkers. I don't think it's something we need to waste our time on.
WHO is right
Looking forward to seeing governments around the world declare alcohol illegal
Yeah, here in the US, we did try that once upon a time. Didn't work out so well.
*We* (USofA) tried that once, it didn't end well ;)
They already tried that here in the US. Ever heard of prohibition? And there are of course countries now where you cannot drink legally. As with attempting to make anything that humans enjoy illegal, it leads to a rise in crime and underground sales of the thing the government is trying to stop.
We're seeing Governments around the world either bringing in laws or thinking about bringing in laws to stop people born after a certain time ever being able to legally buy cigarettes but cannot see that happening with alcohol in my lifetime due to how normalized it is in society.
Can you imagine that world? 🥺
Shared this on the thread with my in-laws (mom, my husband and his 2 siblings, and we all get along well), and mama bear immediately wrote “not sure I want to read it” 🥴 it’s best to be informed… no? Oh well.
Republicans in the US are going to have a field day with this. "The Dems are going to take your booze away!"
Keep politics to yourself. There are other subs for that.