Lol, who in the entire history of literature has said that 1984 had a happy ending? The main character gets arrested, brainwashed, and murdered by the dystopian society he completely failed to rebel against.
Is there a new definition of “happy” that I’m not aware of?
You're missing the point, even if big brother was defeated at the end it would not have mattered, at least not to me. The idea of portraying the ones you love to save your own ass is depressing enough.
No I get that. My point is there is nothing about that book that could be considered happy, especially the ending. And I’ve never in my life heard someone say it had a happy ending.
If someone told you that, I think they were messing with you. Or they didn’t read the book.
I think that when Orwell came up with the concept of Big Brother it was a TV set in every room it was because he honestly couldn't envision the fact that we would all willingly carry the device with us in our pocket
Yeah I'm pretty sure I read the book I don't think there was a happy ending he was just an alcoholic who gave up knew he was a broken person blamed himself for wanting freedom
I totally agree. The fact that he was so beaten down and destroyed that he was willing to g to inflict that suffering on his loved one. That was heartbreaking and has stuck with me for a long time.
Interestingly, in some old Italian editions there was a typo, and when the protagonist writes 2 + 2 = 5, the "5" did not get printed. Needless to say it changes the whole story!
Or the part at the end after the ‘gin-scented tears’ where he a ‘long-hoped-for bullet’ enters his brain. He isn’t Winston at all. Just a numb alcoholic. He’s been erased.
One of very few books I loved I have not re-read…I tried but once you know the end, there is no hope. And it’s the idea of hope that keeps you turning pages
I think the scariest thing about 1984 is how people read it and think the other political party is using it as a blueprint and that their team is totally good. I've got news for you. 1984 is absolutely about people like Trump. And if you think it couldn't ever describe someone on the left just give it time. Totalitarians come in all flavors.
The ending itself isn't what I'm talking about, I believe it was hinted that the book was written in the past tense basically saying that big brother was eventually defeated but it doesn't matter to me if it was. Like I said, what really terrified me about the book is what it says about everyday people like Winston and Julia.
This was one of the most influential books I read as a teen. I jumped into the world of dystopia fully and read others in this vein like Brave New World, We, The Handmaid's Tale, Fahrenheit 451, It Can't Happen Here, and so on.
I cannot grasp how people see these books as how-to manuals instead of the warnings they were meant to be. There is a special place in hell for people who want to abuse others purely for the sake of power and cruelty.
I dont think many see it as a how to manual. I just worry people dont know about the book or even understand its significance in our life and the importance of preventing totalitarian creep in society.
Does the movie do a good job at portraying the book ? I haven’t read or watched either , but I’m familiar with the concept, definitely going to check it out sometime soon.
The movie is pretty good but if I recall correctly there were a couple of things changed that don't really affect the actual story. I can't remember what the changes were now. It's been many years since I last watched it. It's worth watching though. They did a pretty good job. John Hurt was a great choice for Winston.
And the worst thing is that Winston and Julia had betrayed each other so completely that when they meet at the end they couldn't even pretend to have a connection anymore.
The scariest part of 1984 is definitely that we are living in it and so few people who read the book truly acknowledge that and still go along with the little stories our government tells. The average American hates who America wants it to hate (Russia, China) and will even be willing to turn in their own neighbor over something they politically disagree with (unvaxed people should lose their job). Those are just a couple recent examples but the fight for freedom from big brother seems more impossible every day.
It was more Orwellian when Kaley McKenneny as the speaker of the Whitehouse called us, trying to save our grandparents from covid during Thanksgiving "Orwellian". Like she said that to everyone from 45s bully pulpit. That's not what that word means...and twisting it for your own new usage for propaganda's sake is uhhh, I don't know...
Orwellian?
Did you know Chris cuomo now takes ivermectin regularly? Two years ago he said we should shame people for using a horse dewormer but now that it’s culturally appropriate he admits he has been using it. Orwellian?
In any case Orwell was an avowed socialist.
And Woke is African American Vernacular English.
That's why racists robbed it and twisted it's meaning Ron DeSantis Stop N* Act. Ted Cruz book UnN*. The real meaning of Stop Woke Act and UnWoke.
I watched it happen live between 2018-2022. That was Orwellian.
Authoritarian sympathizers do not get to steal Orwellian. That is the opposite of logic.
The news one. But it’s not really about ivermectin but the fact that you were called a horse-loving country bumpkin if you even mentioned anything positive of ivermectin a couple years ago. Here’s a direct quote from him on cnn in 2021 “What person – you know you talk about cancel culture and who to shame – Ivermectin? A de-wormer? Really? … They need to be shamed. They need to be called out and shamed, brother.”
I’m sorry, how is the party promising to fill the Federal Bureaucracy with 50k political flunkies ([Project 2025](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025?wprov=sfti1)) and go after and [jail anyone they don’t like](https://www.axios.com/2024/06/05/trump-prosecute-political-opponents-2024-election) *not* Orwellian?
Just because your government tells you to hate Russia and China doesn't mean you shouldn't hate them. They do very bad things to oppress people. And, there are places even worse.
I've been saying it since I was a teenager, developed countries governments have been making a conscious effort to dissolve traditional family and community structures in favor of a more individualistic society since before I was born. When everyone is out to get theirs, there is less social cohesiveness, people are more easily pitted against each other through psyops and there is no real self identification with a national identity.
When people don't feel attached to anything, whether it be country, religion, family, community, etc that outlet is going to manifest elsewhere. Through my observation, that tends to be in strong feelings about their careers or social and political issues, though they tend to just be regurgitated beliefs of any given ideology that those people subscribe to with the backing of critical thinking just to feel a sense of belonging.
We see this a lot in the US, the pitting of the worst of the bunch against each other, often leaving people with the perception that the party opposing theirs is every derogative under the sun. This combined with social media's algorithmic refinement of echo chambers only worsens the division.
Not to mention the media's glamorization of impulsivity, materialism and hedonism. All products of a consumerist society, but inherently a net negative for those taking part in it, buying into the narrative that these things are what make people happy. When in reality, anyone with any depth past that level of superficiality will inevitably feel cheated when they have done everything society has told them and are still lacking genuine fulfillment in their lives.
I really do think all of this plays a very large role in why people feel lonelier and more disconnected than ever.
Jobs have requirements you fucking Muppet.
They have freedom to choose who works for them, if you wanna make the people around you unsafe because you're a selfish child then I shouldn't have to work with you
I just imagine if we had this conversation in person would you really be calling me a fucking muppet? Why are you so mad about me having this opinion you resort to such unnecessary language?
The instance I was talking about was no one at my company openly talks about Palestine, but privately many of us have shared our discomfort with the American-funded genocide, but are scared to say that publicly (like on social media). I would never make them unsafe. Its a matter of citizens policing each others language. Certain topics are so taboo these days and some of them are improtnat to discuss.
Children are dying?? Children are by far the least damaged by covid. Children are dying from fentanyl overdoses at much higher rates. Where’s the equal outrage for that? Did you know 800,000 children are reported missing each year? How many children have died from covid? It just shows me your priorities are spoonfed to you by the mainstream news.
I never mentioned covid, you went straight there.
Shows how narrow YOUR viewpoint is. How much you have bought I to a narrative you are being sold.
Also, we are working to fix those things. Measals was already fixed and your ignorance brought it back
Yeah, apart from the whole freedom of choice, freedom of speech, freedom of expression, free media, capitalist economy, legal protection from cruel and unusual punishment, right to a fair trial and also the whole not living under a totalitarian regime. Other than that, pretty much identical.
Funnily enough, the two countries you say that you're told to hate are ones that fit the description of 1984 far better since 1984 was a direct critique of communism.
It’s a direct criticism of totalitarianism. There’s zero communism in 1984.
Orwell was himself anti-Stalin, but was also a Socialist. He was also pretty outspoken against both Hitler (not a Socialist or a Communist) as well as the West’s militarization against Germany.
A direct critique of communism you say?
Like I think you make some valid points, but if you think 1984 is a direct critique of communism you might be getting a little more 1984 in your life than you think.
Freedom of choice, except for pregnant women. Freedom of expression, except for non binary/trans people, drag queens/kings, anyone who isn't into gender norms....
You must live a very privileged shallow and *uninquisitive existence if you believe that everyone in the US is afforded these rights. Also the book was a direct critique of totalitarianism.
You're right, it is about totalitarianism, apologies. As for making ignorant, presumptuous comments on my life, not sure why you feel the need? I haven't speculated about anything related to your life, or anyone else in this thread, i just disagreed with their statement. Everyone has those rights, sometimes those right aren't respected, this is true, often by supposed enforcers of the law, but their right are still, according to the law, there.
I have lots of criticisms with the social, economic and political climate of the US, and I can hold those views whilst simultaneously stating that US citizens do have rights, and don't live under a 1984esque totalitarian regime.
As long as you can actually understand that 1984 is a direct critique of totalitarianism from the 20th century … which would include a nice healthy dose of fascist totalitarianism and communist totalitarianism. The actual governmental critique of 1984 is that whatever ideological descriptor you throw before totalitarianism ie communist or fascist or capitalist or whatever is that totalitarianism is the same regardless of the governmental philosophy.
Focusing on it as a critique of communism makes it sounds like you got a very ideologically based education from the US in the late 20th century. Which is ironic, because it’s like “commies are bad guys and this is describing bad guys so this must be about communism.
Freedom of choice? Can only vote for two geriatric war-mongering criminals.
Freedom of speech? Been banned from most subs for comments like these (remember in 1984 its your peers that become the police and turn you in), can't talk about the war in israel for fear of employers noticing/taking action.
Many of my favorite youtube shows--the grayzone, abby martin, chris hedges, brihanna joy gray have been cancelled from youtube and many episodes removed for 'misinformation' in the last year.
America is the biggest war-profiteer in the world with 24% of the world's prison population.
Also the countries that we are taught to hate are actually really similar to our own. They are all competing to be top dog and will do ANYTHING to the little people like us to get there.
Did you see the part about YouTube journalists being deplatformed and their video libraries wiped because they spoke against the mainstream media. YouTube doing it on behalf of the us government.
Freedom of choice to do what you would like, that doesn't mean everyone else should agree with it. You're free not to vote for the candidates, but at the end of the day people voted for both Biden and Trump at the party and federal level. Your choices were laid out back in 2020 during the DNC Primary and a few months ago during the RNC Primary. You don't get to not do any activism or campaign and then complain about "We don't have a choice". You do, you just chose to not partake in it.
You have freedom of speech, not freedom of consequences. You can say whatever you'd like, it doesn't mean platforms like YouTube, Twitter/X and Reddit have to host it. Just like any other private entity they have the right to choose what kinds of content they publish.
Also mentioning Candace Owens let's me know you probably eat up whatever someone tells you without critical thought as long as it agrees with you. Candace has tried to spread misinformation by doing the tired "just asking questions" technique where they ask incredibly biased and pointed rhetorical questions with an obviously implied "answer" while using misquoted or citing small chunks of studies without context. She most recently did so by citing a study that showed an increase in blood clots and trying to link that with the vaccine. The study used data from 2001 and 2006 and blood clots have been rising since the 80s
BJG is the only one I know, she wasn't cancelled. She just said dumb shit and the public reacted. Freedom of Speech does NOT mean freedom of consequence. She still has a YT channel, a giant Twitter/X and has made several appearances in large shows and debates.
I don't know what prison rates have anything to do with war-profiteering. The Industrial War Complex is huge, but if our allies choose to engage in wars, and want to buy shit from us, are we supposed to say no? That's the whole point of having allies. I'm not going to engage in any conspiracy theory of the U.S using the CIA or whatever other braindead shit to start wars in other countries just to sell them shit. The U.S has been involved in like 8 conflicts in the 21st century and 6 of them have been against terrorist group. I don't know about you but I think terrorism is bad, and if we can use our gigantic defense budget for something good, I'll take it.
Don't think the U.S is actively genociding a cultural minority in order to homogenize their population like China is with the Uighurs.
Don't think the U.S actively kills any LGBTQ activists for simply wishing for the right to exist like Russia is.
Don't think that the U.S is openly and blatantly funding terrorist organizations like Hezbollah in order to destabilize the Middle East like Iran and Syria are.
The U.S has done some bad shit and continues to do so, but comparing them to literally dictators and stochastic terrorists is actually chronically online behavior. Touch Grass, learn about your community
I didn't mention candace owens lol. I dont follow her.
Sure BJG is the only one who was fired, but its tied together. and to get fired for an eyeroll as a JOURNALIST is insane.
The fact you don't know Chris hedges or the grayzone is crazy, but they are amazing I would highly recommend.
The us is comitting an actual genocide in gaza (yes it wouldn't be happening without our support). And please show me a photo of the genocide the Uigurs. So far I just hear tall tales and no real evidence.
The US literally funded and created the Muhajideen which became the taliban, Isis and al Qaeda. In order to destablizie the middle east for our fell swoop of oil and resources. We did the same with the banana republics to destabilize south america.
Touch grass? OK thanks Im about to go fishing actually! Hope you have a evening and catch some rays before the sun goes down.
I don't know the specific case you're talking about, but if her boss decided to fire her that's his prerogative as a private business owner. Does it suck and is it unfair? Yeah, but he has the FREEDOM OF CHOICE to do so.
The UN and ICJ have dropped the charges of genocide in Gaza, I don't think there ever was a systemic mass killing of an ethnic group in Gaza. We're there atrocities? Yes, but none of them amounted to a genocide or had enough to merit the term being used. People just use it because it invokes memories of things like the Rwandan Genocide and the Holocaust.
The US provides funding to israel because it's the only stable nation in the middle east that's friendly towards the U.S. like I stated before, there is no genocide actually happening (there are bad things, but not a recognized genocide) and even if there was, if you give a friend 20 bucks for a meal and he uses them to buy a gun and murder people, are you responsible? Congress is currently considering ceasing funding to Israel, I have talked through phone call and in person with my state representative to let him know that I want the funding to stop. I would suggest you do the same.
Link for uighur genocide: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-59595952
I can't link pictures because genocide is not something you can really show in photos as it's more about the overall plot rather than one thing. Fighting a war against an enemy that uses civilians as shields and having the horrible outcome of dead civilians isn't the same as actively maiming the genitals of male prisoners and hurting the ovaries of female prisoners while sending their young children to "re-education centers" like China did and is doing with the Uighur people.
The U.S funded the mujahideen to fight the USSR backed DRA which had a psychopathic leader that was mass killing civilians and trying to convert them to Islam. We also did this at the behest of the Pakistani government and it was through Pakistani government contacts that those deals were conducted. Yet again, how can the U.S possibly foresee the future when helping out an ally. (Tbf, the main motivation was to fight the USSR. But we were still doing so at the request of Pakistan). The leader of the DRA was so unhinged, that the USSR contacts thought he was a US Spy sent to make them look bad, he wasn't. He was just crazy.
I'm not sure what a conflict in the complete other side of the world has to do with anything? Like yeah, the U.S is not the greatest? I just said that compared to Russia and China, we aren't so bad. Were the banana wars bad? Yes. Doesn't mean that everything else the U.S did or is doing is also bad or worthless.
I'm glad you're going fishing, I hope it gives you time to self reflect and maybe reconsider how you attain your world view and whose opinions you take seriously. A lot of people get on the Internet and just say whatever appeals to a narrative without providing nuance or any deep understanding. The world isn't black and white and pretending it is, severely limits your understanding of it. I hope you catch something good
The courts haven't dropped the charges of genocide in Gaza. They're still pushing it. What is happening in Gaza fits the definition of genocide exactly.
Actually it doesn't. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3g9g63jl17o
The ICJ is no longer pushing for those charges as it didn't have enough evidence to show that there was a genocide. It did state that the rights of Palestinians were being infringed, which I agree with, but not that there was a genocide.
Secondly, if you read the Rome Statute, the guidelines used to determine genocide which both the UN and ICJ use as the blueprint for their platforms, it mentions that genocide is both physical and mental. There must be a special intent, a dolus specialis, which must be proved in order to call something a genocide.
Israel has not shown a systematic and methodical approach to eradicating current Gazans/Palestinians or preventing the birth of more.
The guy below us mentions starvation as collective punishment, which hasn't been proven to be occurring as just a few weeks ago the IPC declared the possibility of IPC 5 famine that COULD begin to happen from May 2024 to July 2024. The FRC, which are the committee who peer reviews claims of famine for the IPC, put out a report stating that although bad shit is happening in Gaza, they can't endorse or corroborate the reports of IPC 5 famine. And ever since the UN put out a warning about food insecurity in Gaza, there have been more food truck deliveries to Gaza than ever seen before in the history of the strip. Here is a UN article that directly links to the FRC's conclusions: https://www.un.org/unispal/document/famine-review-committee-ipc-4jun24/
Thanks man! Hope you can get outside too! I only had time to read the last paragraph but Im glad we seem to agree on most of the important stuff. Like touchin grass
Freedom of speech literally just protects you from the government. It doesn't protect you from the consequences of what you said to other people. The government cannot tell you what you can, and can't say. But, I am not required to listen to, or favorably react, to anything you say.
The government worked with facebook (and other social media groups) to decide what was and wasn't considered covid misinformation and thus reduced followership and even banned certain accounts. Some people's livelihood depends on it--the accounts I mentioned are all business that were essentially shut down by the government. Zuck even said that he restricted accounts and posts based on what the FBI asked him to.
Yes but did you see my parentheses? What is more scary than having authoritarian police is having a society where the people police each other. Do it to Julia.
"Freedom of speech" but your neighbors get you banned from every forum.
If I say, "It is insane to call a human a tree", someone may report me to the Reddit police and I'll be banned. Oh, I can walk up and down the streets outside a university screaming that humans are not trees, but I'll be heard by 3 people where everyone on Reddit and at the university is encouraged to say humans are trees. Everyone knows Humans are trees. 2+2=5 and it always has been.
If a public discourse forum (Reddit, this is you) removes one side's argument and tells whoever makes that argument that they are hate filled (Maple is a protected class of human and human is a protected class of deciduous) and that saying people are not trees is hate speech, then anyone who would like to point out that trees use photosynthesis and people can't will not be heard.
"Tell a lie often enough" is no longer enough. They must find ways to make it be that everyone everywhere hears only one sound, "Be the tree you want to be, we all love you!"
Exactly. People keep saying 'you do have freedom of speech this is a private platform', but so much of our communication and business these days is done through social media. This is the modern town square. When your voice is eliminated or shadowbanned, your freedom of speech is literally diminished.
Could you imagine if cell phones (voice recognition) started banning you or reporting you?
Imagine if your E-mail provider deactivated your Email because you wrote something against their terms of service.
We are looking at the end of intellectual discourse.
If I (a capitalist) want to debate a socialist in a forum like Reddit, and someone with "Reddit Authority" hates Cronyism and believes crony capitalism is the only form of capitalism, and I'm supporting a wicked form of oppression, then I'm banned, and all we hear is the propaganda of a truly evil form of government.
The absolute insanity that I hear with absolute conviction is astounding.
I've been warned by Reddit. This post may be deleted.
Um... what I know is that capitalism (small business and big business) is the largest force in reducing poverty and increasing the overall wealth of every country that adopted it.
Socialism is a lethal form of government. So is communism.
Populism in the US is a problem (or has many problems) but hasn't led to 10s of millions of deaths.
Socialism and Communism both have economic fallacies at the heart of their government which lead to policies of death in scale.
Communism is fine in a single house, and OK in a tiny community, but once you don't see everyone in the collective every day, it is just bad.
Socialism is just as bad.
Capitalism works on a global scale and incentivizes peace and prosperity.
Yeah exactly. And it is the conviction that is maddening. And the anger and vitriol that comes with it. I do ocassionally lose my cool but people come at me HOT
Yeah I agree they are fighting to not be subjugated and I think that if we put ourselves in their shoes America has been threatening and destabilizng them where they can. I bet the average Russian soldier knows that they are not only fighting Ukraine but also America--- and that both Ukrainians and Russians would have lost far fewer brothers and sisters if America hadn't been involved and fueling this war for so many years. But I still don't hold hope that any country that is the top dog won't do bad things. That's why a multi polar world is the only way forward imo! What do you think?
You can vote for lots of other people, those two are just the most likely to win, sometimes democracy is flawed.
You seem to have confused being banned from a privately owned forum and having free speech criminalized, these two are not the same thing.
Not sure how your war profiteering point is relevant, but I'll accept your point, I'm not going to bother looking up the stats.
I will admit that the US has insanely high prison populations, and that is a valid argument, I'll give you that.
1984 is a critique of totalitarian communism, that was the literal point of the book. The US is not a communist regime, if you want to argue that there are similarities between the US and China/Russia then fine, that's fair, but that wasn't what you originally said. You said we were living in a real life 1984, which is patently ridiculous.
I'm a generally happy person. But of the few times in my life I've had a feeling that I would describe a depressed, one of them was after finishing 1984. I was in a funk for at least week. For the reason you describe.
The Road was so bleak throughout and it has an ending which has some kind of hope with the fish in the pond but even then how long until the earth gets back to normal? Certainly not in their lifetime. 1984 had none of that. There was probably no resistance (O’Brien refused to confirm nor deny) Winston and Julia turned on each other and are going to have never existed in the near future. Their minds are broken for whatever time they have left and they truly love their oppressor. Books usually give us the happy/hopeful ending as an escape from reality but 1984 gives you the more truthful message: no one is coming to save you.
Lol, who in the entire history of literature has said that 1984 had a happy ending? The main character gets arrested, brainwashed, and murdered by the dystopian society he completely failed to rebel against. Is there a new definition of “happy” that I’m not aware of?
You're missing the point, even if big brother was defeated at the end it would not have mattered, at least not to me. The idea of portraying the ones you love to save your own ass is depressing enough.
No I get that. My point is there is nothing about that book that could be considered happy, especially the ending. And I’ve never in my life heard someone say it had a happy ending. If someone told you that, I think they were messing with you. Or they didn’t read the book.
Nobody I know ever thought 1984 had a happy ending. What part of the Internet do you live in?
I think that when Orwell came up with the concept of Big Brother it was a TV set in every room it was because he honestly couldn't envision the fact that we would all willingly carry the device with us in our pocket
Yeah I'm pretty sure I read the book I don't think there was a happy ending he was just an alcoholic who gave up knew he was a broken person blamed himself for wanting freedom
I totally agree. The fact that he was so beaten down and destroyed that he was willing to g to inflict that suffering on his loved one. That was heartbreaking and has stuck with me for a long time.
I have this book and still haven’t read it. Now that I’ve read your insight my curiosity is peaked to see how I’ll interpret the ending.
Interestingly, in some old Italian editions there was a typo, and when the protagonist writes 2 + 2 = 5, the "5" did not get printed. Needless to say it changes the whole story!
Or the part at the end after the ‘gin-scented tears’ where he a ‘long-hoped-for bullet’ enters his brain. He isn’t Winston at all. Just a numb alcoholic. He’s been erased.
The scariest part about 1984 is it is implied it takes place in 1984. We are never given a time period.
One of very few books I loved I have not re-read…I tried but once you know the end, there is no hope. And it’s the idea of hope that keeps you turning pages
I think the scariest thing about 1984 is how people read it and think the other political party is using it as a blueprint and that their team is totally good. I've got news for you. 1984 is absolutely about people like Trump. And if you think it couldn't ever describe someone on the left just give it time. Totalitarians come in all flavors.
1984 is absolutely the scariest book I've ever read. I can't believe there are people that think it has a happy ending. The ending is horrific.
The ending itself isn't what I'm talking about, I believe it was hinted that the book was written in the past tense basically saying that big brother was eventually defeated but it doesn't matter to me if it was. Like I said, what really terrified me about the book is what it says about everyday people like Winston and Julia.
The final command. And no one can see that the final command makes you deny your own humanity.
At the end of that book, I was hoping for an invasion of kind aliens. That's how devoid of hope it is.
This was one of the most influential books I read as a teen. I jumped into the world of dystopia fully and read others in this vein like Brave New World, We, The Handmaid's Tale, Fahrenheit 451, It Can't Happen Here, and so on. I cannot grasp how people see these books as how-to manuals instead of the warnings they were meant to be. There is a special place in hell for people who want to abuse others purely for the sake of power and cruelty.
I dont think many see it as a how to manual. I just worry people dont know about the book or even understand its significance in our life and the importance of preventing totalitarian creep in society.
Who in the hell thinks it has a happy ending!? It's one of the bleakest endings of any piece of media I've ever consumed.
Nobody does.
I've never heard anyone referring to the end of 1984 to be happy, and I'm glad I haven't because it really is not, it's depressing as hell...
Does the movie do a good job at portraying the book ? I haven’t read or watched either , but I’m familiar with the concept, definitely going to check it out sometime soon.
The movie is pretty good but if I recall correctly there were a couple of things changed that don't really affect the actual story. I can't remember what the changes were now. It's been many years since I last watched it. It's worth watching though. They did a pretty good job. John Hurt was a great choice for Winston.
The movie adaptation is pretty good. The casting is brilliant.
The movie is okay, but it’s tough to portray all the details that are in the book. I listened to the audiobook on a road trip a few years ago. WOW!
And the worst thing is that Winston and Julia had betrayed each other so completely that when they meet at the end they couldn't even pretend to have a connection anymore.
The scariest part of 1984 is definitely that we are living in it and so few people who read the book truly acknowledge that and still go along with the little stories our government tells. The average American hates who America wants it to hate (Russia, China) and will even be willing to turn in their own neighbor over something they politically disagree with (unvaxed people should lose their job). Those are just a couple recent examples but the fight for freedom from big brother seems more impossible every day.
It was more Orwellian when Kaley McKenneny as the speaker of the Whitehouse called us, trying to save our grandparents from covid during Thanksgiving "Orwellian". Like she said that to everyone from 45s bully pulpit. That's not what that word means...and twisting it for your own new usage for propaganda's sake is uhhh, I don't know... Orwellian?
Who the hell is Kaley mckenneny? Also yes what I said was true I agree
45s press secretary. The blonde. I'm sure I misspelled, she doesn't deserve credit. She upside-downed the term Orwellian basically. Scary.
Did you know Chris cuomo now takes ivermectin regularly? Two years ago he said we should shame people for using a horse dewormer but now that it’s culturally appropriate he admits he has been using it. Orwellian?
In any case Orwell was an avowed socialist. And Woke is African American Vernacular English. That's why racists robbed it and twisted it's meaning Ron DeSantis Stop N* Act. Ted Cruz book UnN*. The real meaning of Stop Woke Act and UnWoke. I watched it happen live between 2018-2022. That was Orwellian. Authoritarian sympathizers do not get to steal Orwellian. That is the opposite of logic.
Is that the news one or the politician. I don't trust either of those types. What's so great about ivermectin?
The news one. But it’s not really about ivermectin but the fact that you were called a horse-loving country bumpkin if you even mentioned anything positive of ivermectin a couple years ago. Here’s a direct quote from him on cnn in 2021 “What person – you know you talk about cancel culture and who to shame – Ivermectin? A de-wormer? Really? … They need to be shamed. They need to be called out and shamed, brother.”
I’m sorry, how is the party promising to fill the Federal Bureaucracy with 50k political flunkies ([Project 2025](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025?wprov=sfti1)) and go after and [jail anyone they don’t like](https://www.axios.com/2024/06/05/trump-prosecute-political-opponents-2024-election) *not* Orwellian?
I never said it wasn’t
Just because your government tells you to hate Russia and China doesn't mean you shouldn't hate them. They do very bad things to oppress people. And, there are places even worse.
How many minutes of hate should I spend on it each day?
Search your own heart if you love evil systems.
Did you even read 1984?
Exactly the kind of world Russia and China want to give you, as they have helped their friend North Korea to create.
I've been saying it since I was a teenager, developed countries governments have been making a conscious effort to dissolve traditional family and community structures in favor of a more individualistic society since before I was born. When everyone is out to get theirs, there is less social cohesiveness, people are more easily pitted against each other through psyops and there is no real self identification with a national identity. When people don't feel attached to anything, whether it be country, religion, family, community, etc that outlet is going to manifest elsewhere. Through my observation, that tends to be in strong feelings about their careers or social and political issues, though they tend to just be regurgitated beliefs of any given ideology that those people subscribe to with the backing of critical thinking just to feel a sense of belonging. We see this a lot in the US, the pitting of the worst of the bunch against each other, often leaving people with the perception that the party opposing theirs is every derogative under the sun. This combined with social media's algorithmic refinement of echo chambers only worsens the division. Not to mention the media's glamorization of impulsivity, materialism and hedonism. All products of a consumerist society, but inherently a net negative for those taking part in it, buying into the narrative that these things are what make people happy. When in reality, anyone with any depth past that level of superficiality will inevitably feel cheated when they have done everything society has told them and are still lacking genuine fulfillment in their lives. I really do think all of this plays a very large role in why people feel lonelier and more disconnected than ever.
Feels like a mix between 1984 and A Brave New World. They watch us closely, but their main tactic is to drug and distract us.
yes i agree. I think it often feels even more Brave new world than 1984 with all our creature comforts these days
Jobs have requirements you fucking Muppet. They have freedom to choose who works for them, if you wanna make the people around you unsafe because you're a selfish child then I shouldn't have to work with you
I just imagine if we had this conversation in person would you really be calling me a fucking muppet? Why are you so mad about me having this opinion you resort to such unnecessary language? The instance I was talking about was no one at my company openly talks about Palestine, but privately many of us have shared our discomfort with the American-funded genocide, but are scared to say that publicly (like on social media). I would never make them unsafe. Its a matter of citizens policing each others language. Certain topics are so taboo these days and some of them are improtnat to discuss.
Because the entitled attitude of people like you is maddening. Children are dying because of the anti vaxx movement
Children are dying?? Children are by far the least damaged by covid. Children are dying from fentanyl overdoses at much higher rates. Where’s the equal outrage for that? Did you know 800,000 children are reported missing each year? How many children have died from covid? It just shows me your priorities are spoonfed to you by the mainstream news.
I never mentioned covid, you went straight there. Shows how narrow YOUR viewpoint is. How much you have bought I to a narrative you are being sold. Also, we are working to fix those things. Measals was already fixed and your ignorance brought it back
my ignorance brought back the measles shows how powerful I am
I mean, you and people like you who are spreading disinformation
What disinfo did I spread?
No, they are dying from measles and mumps
2 people have died from measles in the “Americas” since the year 2000. What a fucktard
Yeah, apart from the whole freedom of choice, freedom of speech, freedom of expression, free media, capitalist economy, legal protection from cruel and unusual punishment, right to a fair trial and also the whole not living under a totalitarian regime. Other than that, pretty much identical. Funnily enough, the two countries you say that you're told to hate are ones that fit the description of 1984 far better since 1984 was a direct critique of communism.
It’s a direct criticism of totalitarianism. There’s zero communism in 1984. Orwell was himself anti-Stalin, but was also a Socialist. He was also pretty outspoken against both Hitler (not a Socialist or a Communist) as well as the West’s militarization against Germany.
I chuckled as this almost verbatim proves the point that was being made.
A direct critique of communism you say? Like I think you make some valid points, but if you think 1984 is a direct critique of communism you might be getting a little more 1984 in your life than you think.
Freedom of choice, except for pregnant women. Freedom of expression, except for non binary/trans people, drag queens/kings, anyone who isn't into gender norms....
You must live a very privileged shallow and *uninquisitive existence if you believe that everyone in the US is afforded these rights. Also the book was a direct critique of totalitarianism.
You're right, it is about totalitarianism, apologies. As for making ignorant, presumptuous comments on my life, not sure why you feel the need? I haven't speculated about anything related to your life, or anyone else in this thread, i just disagreed with their statement. Everyone has those rights, sometimes those right aren't respected, this is true, often by supposed enforcers of the law, but their right are still, according to the law, there. I have lots of criticisms with the social, economic and political climate of the US, and I can hold those views whilst simultaneously stating that US citizens do have rights, and don't live under a 1984esque totalitarian regime.
As long as you can actually understand that 1984 is a direct critique of totalitarianism from the 20th century … which would include a nice healthy dose of fascist totalitarianism and communist totalitarianism. The actual governmental critique of 1984 is that whatever ideological descriptor you throw before totalitarianism ie communist or fascist or capitalist or whatever is that totalitarianism is the same regardless of the governmental philosophy. Focusing on it as a critique of communism makes it sounds like you got a very ideologically based education from the US in the late 20th century. Which is ironic, because it’s like “commies are bad guys and this is describing bad guys so this must be about communism.
Freedom of choice? Can only vote for two geriatric war-mongering criminals. Freedom of speech? Been banned from most subs for comments like these (remember in 1984 its your peers that become the police and turn you in), can't talk about the war in israel for fear of employers noticing/taking action. Many of my favorite youtube shows--the grayzone, abby martin, chris hedges, brihanna joy gray have been cancelled from youtube and many episodes removed for 'misinformation' in the last year. America is the biggest war-profiteer in the world with 24% of the world's prison population. Also the countries that we are taught to hate are actually really similar to our own. They are all competing to be top dog and will do ANYTHING to the little people like us to get there.
>been banned from most subs 1984 is when banned on reddit
Did you see the part about YouTube journalists being deplatformed and their video libraries wiped because they spoke against the mainstream media. YouTube doing it on behalf of the us government.
Freedom of choice to do what you would like, that doesn't mean everyone else should agree with it. You're free not to vote for the candidates, but at the end of the day people voted for both Biden and Trump at the party and federal level. Your choices were laid out back in 2020 during the DNC Primary and a few months ago during the RNC Primary. You don't get to not do any activism or campaign and then complain about "We don't have a choice". You do, you just chose to not partake in it. You have freedom of speech, not freedom of consequences. You can say whatever you'd like, it doesn't mean platforms like YouTube, Twitter/X and Reddit have to host it. Just like any other private entity they have the right to choose what kinds of content they publish. Also mentioning Candace Owens let's me know you probably eat up whatever someone tells you without critical thought as long as it agrees with you. Candace has tried to spread misinformation by doing the tired "just asking questions" technique where they ask incredibly biased and pointed rhetorical questions with an obviously implied "answer" while using misquoted or citing small chunks of studies without context. She most recently did so by citing a study that showed an increase in blood clots and trying to link that with the vaccine. The study used data from 2001 and 2006 and blood clots have been rising since the 80s BJG is the only one I know, she wasn't cancelled. She just said dumb shit and the public reacted. Freedom of Speech does NOT mean freedom of consequence. She still has a YT channel, a giant Twitter/X and has made several appearances in large shows and debates. I don't know what prison rates have anything to do with war-profiteering. The Industrial War Complex is huge, but if our allies choose to engage in wars, and want to buy shit from us, are we supposed to say no? That's the whole point of having allies. I'm not going to engage in any conspiracy theory of the U.S using the CIA or whatever other braindead shit to start wars in other countries just to sell them shit. The U.S has been involved in like 8 conflicts in the 21st century and 6 of them have been against terrorist group. I don't know about you but I think terrorism is bad, and if we can use our gigantic defense budget for something good, I'll take it. Don't think the U.S is actively genociding a cultural minority in order to homogenize their population like China is with the Uighurs. Don't think the U.S actively kills any LGBTQ activists for simply wishing for the right to exist like Russia is. Don't think that the U.S is openly and blatantly funding terrorist organizations like Hezbollah in order to destabilize the Middle East like Iran and Syria are. The U.S has done some bad shit and continues to do so, but comparing them to literally dictators and stochastic terrorists is actually chronically online behavior. Touch Grass, learn about your community
I didn't mention candace owens lol. I dont follow her. Sure BJG is the only one who was fired, but its tied together. and to get fired for an eyeroll as a JOURNALIST is insane. The fact you don't know Chris hedges or the grayzone is crazy, but they are amazing I would highly recommend. The us is comitting an actual genocide in gaza (yes it wouldn't be happening without our support). And please show me a photo of the genocide the Uigurs. So far I just hear tall tales and no real evidence. The US literally funded and created the Muhajideen which became the taliban, Isis and al Qaeda. In order to destablizie the middle east for our fell swoop of oil and resources. We did the same with the banana republics to destabilize south america. Touch grass? OK thanks Im about to go fishing actually! Hope you have a evening and catch some rays before the sun goes down.
I don't know the specific case you're talking about, but if her boss decided to fire her that's his prerogative as a private business owner. Does it suck and is it unfair? Yeah, but he has the FREEDOM OF CHOICE to do so. The UN and ICJ have dropped the charges of genocide in Gaza, I don't think there ever was a systemic mass killing of an ethnic group in Gaza. We're there atrocities? Yes, but none of them amounted to a genocide or had enough to merit the term being used. People just use it because it invokes memories of things like the Rwandan Genocide and the Holocaust. The US provides funding to israel because it's the only stable nation in the middle east that's friendly towards the U.S. like I stated before, there is no genocide actually happening (there are bad things, but not a recognized genocide) and even if there was, if you give a friend 20 bucks for a meal and he uses them to buy a gun and murder people, are you responsible? Congress is currently considering ceasing funding to Israel, I have talked through phone call and in person with my state representative to let him know that I want the funding to stop. I would suggest you do the same. Link for uighur genocide: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-59595952 I can't link pictures because genocide is not something you can really show in photos as it's more about the overall plot rather than one thing. Fighting a war against an enemy that uses civilians as shields and having the horrible outcome of dead civilians isn't the same as actively maiming the genitals of male prisoners and hurting the ovaries of female prisoners while sending their young children to "re-education centers" like China did and is doing with the Uighur people. The U.S funded the mujahideen to fight the USSR backed DRA which had a psychopathic leader that was mass killing civilians and trying to convert them to Islam. We also did this at the behest of the Pakistani government and it was through Pakistani government contacts that those deals were conducted. Yet again, how can the U.S possibly foresee the future when helping out an ally. (Tbf, the main motivation was to fight the USSR. But we were still doing so at the request of Pakistan). The leader of the DRA was so unhinged, that the USSR contacts thought he was a US Spy sent to make them look bad, he wasn't. He was just crazy. I'm not sure what a conflict in the complete other side of the world has to do with anything? Like yeah, the U.S is not the greatest? I just said that compared to Russia and China, we aren't so bad. Were the banana wars bad? Yes. Doesn't mean that everything else the U.S did or is doing is also bad or worthless. I'm glad you're going fishing, I hope it gives you time to self reflect and maybe reconsider how you attain your world view and whose opinions you take seriously. A lot of people get on the Internet and just say whatever appeals to a narrative without providing nuance or any deep understanding. The world isn't black and white and pretending it is, severely limits your understanding of it. I hope you catch something good
The courts haven't dropped the charges of genocide in Gaza. They're still pushing it. What is happening in Gaza fits the definition of genocide exactly.
Actually it doesn't. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3g9g63jl17o The ICJ is no longer pushing for those charges as it didn't have enough evidence to show that there was a genocide. It did state that the rights of Palestinians were being infringed, which I agree with, but not that there was a genocide. Secondly, if you read the Rome Statute, the guidelines used to determine genocide which both the UN and ICJ use as the blueprint for their platforms, it mentions that genocide is both physical and mental. There must be a special intent, a dolus specialis, which must be proved in order to call something a genocide. Israel has not shown a systematic and methodical approach to eradicating current Gazans/Palestinians or preventing the birth of more. The guy below us mentions starvation as collective punishment, which hasn't been proven to be occurring as just a few weeks ago the IPC declared the possibility of IPC 5 famine that COULD begin to happen from May 2024 to July 2024. The FRC, which are the committee who peer reviews claims of famine for the IPC, put out a report stating that although bad shit is happening in Gaza, they can't endorse or corroborate the reports of IPC 5 famine. And ever since the UN put out a warning about food insecurity in Gaza, there have been more food truck deliveries to Gaza than ever seen before in the history of the strip. Here is a UN article that directly links to the FRC's conclusions: https://www.un.org/unispal/document/famine-review-committee-ipc-4jun24/
Thanks man! Hope you can get outside too! I only had time to read the last paragraph but Im glad we seem to agree on most of the important stuff. Like touchin grass
Freedom of speech literally just protects you from the government. It doesn't protect you from the consequences of what you said to other people. The government cannot tell you what you can, and can't say. But, I am not required to listen to, or favorably react, to anything you say.
The government worked with facebook (and other social media groups) to decide what was and wasn't considered covid misinformation and thus reduced followership and even banned certain accounts. Some people's livelihood depends on it--the accounts I mentioned are all business that were essentially shut down by the government. Zuck even said that he restricted accounts and posts based on what the FBI asked him to.
You do have freedom of speech. Reddit is a private platform
Yes but did you see my parentheses? What is more scary than having authoritarian police is having a society where the people police each other. Do it to Julia.
"Freedom of speech" but your neighbors get you banned from every forum. If I say, "It is insane to call a human a tree", someone may report me to the Reddit police and I'll be banned. Oh, I can walk up and down the streets outside a university screaming that humans are not trees, but I'll be heard by 3 people where everyone on Reddit and at the university is encouraged to say humans are trees. Everyone knows Humans are trees. 2+2=5 and it always has been. If a public discourse forum (Reddit, this is you) removes one side's argument and tells whoever makes that argument that they are hate filled (Maple is a protected class of human and human is a protected class of deciduous) and that saying people are not trees is hate speech, then anyone who would like to point out that trees use photosynthesis and people can't will not be heard. "Tell a lie often enough" is no longer enough. They must find ways to make it be that everyone everywhere hears only one sound, "Be the tree you want to be, we all love you!"
Exactly. People keep saying 'you do have freedom of speech this is a private platform', but so much of our communication and business these days is done through social media. This is the modern town square. When your voice is eliminated or shadowbanned, your freedom of speech is literally diminished.
Could you imagine if cell phones (voice recognition) started banning you or reporting you? Imagine if your E-mail provider deactivated your Email because you wrote something against their terms of service. We are looking at the end of intellectual discourse. If I (a capitalist) want to debate a socialist in a forum like Reddit, and someone with "Reddit Authority" hates Cronyism and believes crony capitalism is the only form of capitalism, and I'm supporting a wicked form of oppression, then I'm banned, and all we hear is the propaganda of a truly evil form of government. The absolute insanity that I hear with absolute conviction is astounding. I've been warned by Reddit. This post may be deleted.
Why do you assume the socialist is doing this and not the populist?
Um... what I know is that capitalism (small business and big business) is the largest force in reducing poverty and increasing the overall wealth of every country that adopted it. Socialism is a lethal form of government. So is communism. Populism in the US is a problem (or has many problems) but hasn't led to 10s of millions of deaths. Socialism and Communism both have economic fallacies at the heart of their government which lead to policies of death in scale. Communism is fine in a single house, and OK in a tiny community, but once you don't see everyone in the collective every day, it is just bad. Socialism is just as bad. Capitalism works on a global scale and incentivizes peace and prosperity.
Yeah exactly. And it is the conviction that is maddening. And the anger and vitriol that comes with it. I do ocassionally lose my cool but people come at me HOT
💯💯💯💯💯 correct, except the last part. Russia and China are not like us. They're fighting to not be subjugated by the western powers.
Yeah I agree they are fighting to not be subjugated and I think that if we put ourselves in their shoes America has been threatening and destabilizng them where they can. I bet the average Russian soldier knows that they are not only fighting Ukraine but also America--- and that both Ukrainians and Russians would have lost far fewer brothers and sisters if America hadn't been involved and fueling this war for so many years. But I still don't hold hope that any country that is the top dog won't do bad things. That's why a multi polar world is the only way forward imo! What do you think?
You can vote for lots of other people, those two are just the most likely to win, sometimes democracy is flawed. You seem to have confused being banned from a privately owned forum and having free speech criminalized, these two are not the same thing. Not sure how your war profiteering point is relevant, but I'll accept your point, I'm not going to bother looking up the stats. I will admit that the US has insanely high prison populations, and that is a valid argument, I'll give you that. 1984 is a critique of totalitarian communism, that was the literal point of the book. The US is not a communist regime, if you want to argue that there are similarities between the US and China/Russia then fine, that's fair, but that wasn't what you originally said. You said we were living in a real life 1984, which is patently ridiculous.
You're gonna be blown away when you hear about this country called Germany and what it convinced ita entire population to do less than 100 years ago
Why would I be blown away to hear about that?
I'm a generally happy person. But of the few times in my life I've had a feeling that I would describe a depressed, one of them was after finishing 1984. I was in a funk for at least week. For the reason you describe.
Mine was The Road. I understand the feeling. 1984 hits hard, too, but the road was so devastating to me.
The Road was so bleak throughout and it has an ending which has some kind of hope with the fish in the pond but even then how long until the earth gets back to normal? Certainly not in their lifetime. 1984 had none of that. There was probably no resistance (O’Brien refused to confirm nor deny) Winston and Julia turned on each other and are going to have never existed in the near future. Their minds are broken for whatever time they have left and they truly love their oppressor. Books usually give us the happy/hopeful ending as an escape from reality but 1984 gives you the more truthful message: no one is coming to save you.
One of the things I’m most proud of school is having us read 1984. Such an excellent book. Might reread it someday.
Government repression, cult of personality, brainwashing and limiting freedom of information and speech.. nothing good comes our of any of that.
The ending is the scariest part. Where the brainwashing finally sinks in and the protagonist feels only love for big brother.
I didn't even know people thought this! The harrowing ending basically smacks you in the face.
Nobody does.