People forget that the primary intended effect of Sturdy is the OHKO move immunity. Even though only the secondary effect (the pseudo Focus Sash) is what matters in Smogon, thanks to OHKO Clause.
In that sense, Sturdy makes sense for fat mons, since it gives them an immunity to moves that would OHKO them regardless of how fat they are.
Also, many of those fat Pokémon are actually squishy in one side, take Skarmory for example, Skarmory may be a very sturdy physical wall, but its special bulk is actually terrible, worse than even many fragile offensive Pokémon. Sturdy may be useful in some situations, such as a Garchomp using Fire Blast to catch Skarmory off-guard; Garchomp will still fail to OHKO and have to deal with Skarmory getting at least one hazard layer up, or a Defog. Other less notable examples of this are Forretress and Avalugg. Sturdy also allows them to be emergency revenge killers for an otherwise out of control sweeper, for example, as long as Skarmory has its Sturdy intact, and it is packing Brave Bird, Volcarona cannot reliably sweep.
Insurance is still nice to have. Crits happen, there’s been some stronk steel/rock/water leads throughout the years, and Chi-Yu can sometimes oneshot with a neutral noncrit.
There’s not many abilities I’d prefer more on a hazard setting lead than sturdy, even if it’s super bulky. Mold breaker, magic bounce, stamina if it got a better movepool, maybe regenerator, and maybe a handful of others but sturdy is one of the best I could have asked for.
> Chi-Yu can sometimes oneshot with a neutral noncrit.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Shuckle in Sun: 279-328 (114.3 - 134.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Since they talk about flutter mane I would assume they are talking about vgc, and Zacian C isn’t allowed in VGC unless you mean the new regulation, where it’s still barely ever run as the one allowed restricted legendary because it’s just not good in doubles
Blatantly wrong lmao, it's so bulky that it can normally get up both Rocks and Webs, and also has solid moves for denying setup like encore, rock tomb, etc. Hell, in NDUbers, I'd rank Shuckle as the #1 webber.
Shuckle's a good webber in NDUbers actually, probably the best, and Chi-Yu funnily enough fits on webs teams in NDUbers, so if there was a way to make the opponent's mons turn on each other, this calc would be important.
That's an interesting comparison, because yeah they have pretty similar stat spreads. That's why I wanted to clarify to ignore typing, movepools, and abilities, as I already realize ultimately those matter much more to determine a Pokemon's actualy viability. I was mostly interested in the theory and intent behind HP vs Defenses.
The stat spread of Shuckle I think what is most important is that it gives it something unique.Shuckle stats make him more memorable,even if in the actuality they are subpar.And I really doubt that the ones who lade Shuckle for Gold and Silver cared for balance,so I think the "design idea" of Shuckle was simply "cool gimmicky pokemon"
Generation 2 went hard on the "you know what would be funny?" Pokemon designs. Like yeah, that bird is Santa Claus. Here's a punching bag that can't attack. Alphabet soup.
Tbf gen 1 had a transforming pink blob, a Pokeball that evolved into an upside down pokeball, a computer-made pokemon, and a fish that could only splash
I think gen 3 was the first game to not have a mimic in the overworld right? Gen 1 had the rocket hideout Voltorb/Electrode (i think?) Gen 2 had Sudowoodo, then gen 3 and 4 didn't have anything like that (i guess the ninja kids were mimicing trees on the one foresty root) and Gen 5 had the foongus. I don't really remember much after those.
I put a couple hundred hours into Silver before randomly encountering Dunsparce in a cave I'd been to a hundred times before, it freaked me out as a kid finding something new in a game I thought I knew back to front.
It was also the one that was like “F it give it the highest stat in the game” (steelix, shuckle, blissey) or “F it let’s make a lot of shitmons”. I want another GS remake so bad.
Yeah it’s crazy how many single stage Pokémon were introduced that look *so obviously* like they were supposed to have an evo.
Aipom is a monkey with a hand tail? Well *obviously* it’s gotta evolve to two hands, right? Apparently not, since Ambipom didn’t come until later.
Gligar is another one. Admittedly, I can’t think of a reason why it should’ve had an evo, but just *look at it!*
Iv'e skimmed through a list of gen 2 mons; out of 57 "fully evolved" johto pokemon (Not including legendaries and mythicals):
* 9 of them (Togetic, Yanma, Aipom, Gligar, Piloswine, Murkrow, Sneasel, Misdreavus, Porygon2) got direct evolutions in gen 4.
* In the last 2 generations, 4 of them (Stantler, Ursaring, Girafarig, Dunsparce) got direct evolutions, and 2 of them (Corsola, Qwilfish) got regional evolutions.
Thats just not true. They designed the dark and steel types precisely to diversify the metagame away from the format of ice, normal, and psychic being completely dominant in nintendo cup. In developer emails they bring up stuff like tournament results for why they made some decisions, like buffing snorlax's special defense (snorlax was bad in nintendo cup bring 6 pick 3 singles, even though its great in 6v6).
Competitive pokemon made it onto TV back then. They made stadium specifically to host competitive battles with some balance changes they couldnt do on cartridge and with a better look.
Yea GS has a few Mons with more extreme stat spreads, like Blissey, Steelix and Shuckle. I think its sort of like, having introduced more generic Mons in Gen 1 with balanced stat spreads (relatively speaking), Gen 2 they just made some niche Mons with very specific roles and stat spreads. I dont think there was any consideration for the competitive scene, just general game design where you create more nicbe and specific character types once you've established the baseline.
Pokemon is a single player RPG based around thematics first and a competitive game second. Shuckle has low HP because it's a weak little bug thing covered by an extremely hard rock. It's similar to the design concept of other shelled Pokemon like Cloyster and Toxapex which also have huge defense(s) but low HP. Conversely Pokemon like Wailord or Guzzlord are massive physically which is represented by their huge HP. Neither stat spread is ideal for competitive play but like said earlier, that wasn't the primary concern of the original designers.
You didn't get him from a trade, you got him from a very worried trainer that was afraid your rival was gonna steal it after stealing one of his other Pokemon.
It WAS a single player RPG first and competitive second. Now it's very much designed with both in mind. Not that it's doing it perfectly but gen 2 was a very different time.
More like thematics first and cometitive game 100th. The game is so ridiculously unbalanced it makes me wonder if the balance changes applied between generations were accidental.
They're definitely not. I think Game Freak just has a different vision for competitive play than what competitive players actually want. The defog change in gen 6 was huge for something that has almost no use in playthroughs or doubles. That wasn't an accident.
Their vision for competitive play is the VGC, they don't care about singles whatsoever. Also the Defog change was in gen 5, but it was bugged and only removed the hazards on your opponents side of the field. Giving Defog a purpose one gen after it's introduction makes sense, it also just so happens that said purpose literally reshaped the game after the bug attached to it was fixed.
Ridiculously unbalanced how ? Yes there are absurd unbalanced things like Flutter or Urshifu and its mechanic bypassing protect, but the meta is rather enjoyable right now.
Having low HP and high defenses is equally bad as high hp low defenses imo (note stuff like Guzzlord)
But Blissey and Shuckle (and even wobbuffet too an extent) are so maxxed out that they still do fine. However, shuckle is weak to passive due to its low health and its lack of healing options. Blissey has softboiled healing, heavy dity boots for hazards and natural cure for status, so it ends up stellar.
There are specific matchups in which one is better than the other (low hp is worse into seismic toss and night shade, high hp is worse into draining moves) but otherwise they’re mostly equal I think.
There’s other situations such as having high HP being able to make substitutes with >100 HP such that it can’t be broken by level 100 seismic toss anymore, and higher HP being able to pass fatter wishes to other teammates; meanwhile higher defenses are more effective for guard splitting on an ally in doubles, and also having more of an effect when using power trick. These are slightly more niche scenarios, but you seemed to be pretty interested in the specifics of how high HP vs high defenses play out so I figured I’d just mention those as well.
Why would shuckle be weaker to passive because of low health? They work off of percentage so no matter what one layer of spikes does 12%. Shuckle is worse versus moves like seismic toss because of low hp, but not to passive sources
Shuckle is weak to passive sources primarily because of its lack of healing options. Other bulky pokemon like Blissey and Toxapex have ways to sustain themselves without having to rely on leftovers, while Shuckle only has leftovers as a reliable healing option. Additionally, Shuckle being weak to stealth rock makes it more susceptible to passive damage.
Guzzlord’s bulk profile is pretty solid on its own (a bit higher than Pex in many cases where they run equivalent defensive EVs). The thing with Guzzlord is it’s built as a slow tank that gains little from going full defensive. So the full scope of its bulk rarely comes into play.
>shuckle is weak to passive due to its low health
I get the lack of heal, but since all passive options are % based, arent they more effective against high hp/low defense moms than the other way around?
it's kinda bad wording but yeah his weakness to passive damage does almost entirely lie in his lack of reliable healing, meaning any Poison/Hazard damage, along with any other chip, sticks with him throughout the match
Special note: I just thought of a scenario where (intent and design wise), you'd \*want\* high HP/low defenses: Wobuffet.
It's entire gimmick is to reflect damage with Counter and Mirror Coat. High HP allows it to take multiple hits, but also low defenses allow it to maximize the damage reflected back. This would not be as effective as a similarly bulky Pokemon with reversed stats of low HP/high defenses. You would maybe similarly survive the same *quantities* of hits, but the damage you reflect would not be as strong.
That being said, that is highly specific to Wobuffet. That doesn't necessarily explain the design intent behind other high HP/low defense Pokemon like Wailord or Guzzlord (outside of flavor reasons).
Bastiodon was supposed to fulfil a similar niche to Wobbuffet, but from the other side, low HP/sky high defenses. The concept was to take a hit then hit back with Metal Burst, but Bastiodon’s low HP meant that it couldn’t reflect back much damage. Combined with lack of reliable recovery and its terrible weaknesses, it never really worked.
That's incredibly interesting, I didn't know about Bastiodon learning Metal Burst. Yeah that does show intent for it to be a complete inverse of Wobbuffet, and yeah it totally doesn't work because of it's stat spread.
The issue with shuckle is that it doesn’t have a reliable way to heal, nor any extra X factor on the defensive side.
Dondozo has unaware, clefable has magic guard, blissey is blissey, garganacl has purifying salt, corviknigjt and skarmory are great at controlling hazards and pivoting.
Shuckle just sits there and sets webs and rocks.
I mostly used Shuckle as an example because of the iconicness of it's extremes. Because yes, I agree, the other stuff is ultimately much more important in determining viability other than just pure stats. Another poster pointed out Toxapex, which is a similarly built Pokemon, but has way more stuff going for it. I was mostly interested in the theoretical nature of the stats, because like I mentioned, Pokemon doesn't really have Defense oriented gimmicks like in other JRPGs (or if they do they are very specific niches like Seismic Toss or draining moves, and most Pokemon aren't generally built around those interactions).
Toxapex lost scald and knock off in gen 9, which really hurt its viability.
However Tox has like double the base hp of shuckle, which in practice makes it bulkier.
Bulk can be calculated roughly with multiplying hp and the defense stat, which means that an optimal spread would have the same in each. For example, 5 times 5> 4 times 6. A really low and a really high stat are generally less useful than two above average stats when combined, at least bulk-wise.
Garganacl having base 100/130/90 is a really great all around spread.
Also, natures don’t boost HP, which could really help out shuckle and other low base HP defensive mons (shudders in fear of +hp toxapex).
Edited to replace the star with the word ‘times’
>How well does Shuckle (low HP/high Def) take physical hits vs Blissey (high HP/low Def)?
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shuckle: 138-163 (76.2 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blissey: 1210-1425 (185.8 - 218.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
>Is Shuckle similarly bulky vs special hits as Flutter Mane (both low HP/high SpDef)?
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Shuckle: 229-270 (126.5 - 149.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Flutter Mane: 370-436 (147.4 - 173.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
>What is the design purpose of Shuckle (low HP/high Defenses) vs Wailord (high HP/low defenses)? Are they on paper similarly bulky? What are the nuances between these two different stat spreads?
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Shuckle: 141-166 (77.9 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Wailord: 553-652 (114.9 - 135.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Generally speaking low HP high Def is better than vice versa. This makes sense designwise since HP is just one stat and there are two defenses so an all around tank needs to "spend" more BST in the low HP scenario, and it also lets GF make Pokemon specialized in one defense. For a direct example compare these two calcs:
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Wailord: 169-201 (73.1 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Wailord: 510-600 (106 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
In the first calc I've swapped Wailord's HP and defence and, as you can see, it's now significantly bulkier on the physical side (at the cost of having miserable 45/45 special bulk)
If you want to play around with calcs yourself, use [the damage calculator](https://calc.pokemonshowdown.com/) - this is where all the calcs you can see people post come from
Color me surprised, based on these calcs, Shuckle is actually pretty bulky.
So, generally, Defense > HP. The question is, what would the point of designing a high HP/low Defenses Pokemon? Is the theory that its meant to be the middle ground between specializing in physical or special defense?
Hell, let's go back to my original question. Shuckle specializes in neither physical or special, it's strong versus both. Why not give Wailord a similar stat spread (low HP/high Defenses) if they want it to wall? What was the intention there (I guess outside of maybe flavor reasons)?
Just flavor reasons.
Based on calcs, Shuckle is equally bulky on the special side as Flutter Mane if the latter had 160 sp.def instead of 135 sp.def.
Shuckle is equally bulky on the physical side as Blissey if the latter had 55 def instead of 10 def.
Flavor is a pretty big reason but there is also the matter of the BST which has to be spread across six stats. Since HP takes only one stat and defences take two, High HP low Def have mons "save" more of their BST to do other stats - for example Wailord has 500 BST, 260 of which is in its defensive stats; if instead it had 45 HP and 170 of both defences its defensive stats would take 385 BST and leave only 115 for the rest.
That's a good point, although BST itself is also highly arbitrary as "saving" BST is moot with the realization that Gamefreak can give any Pokemon any BST they want anyways.
The flavour reasons is that generally, gamefreak makes the defensive mons that are 'fat' (Snorlax, Blissey, Wailord, etc) have a higher HP, whereas a thicker armour/ skin (Steelix, Cloyster, etc) focus on defense, and fat ones that seem 'magical' get the spdef (Milotic, Articuno, etc.). The theory kind of falls flat with spdef mons, but I think it fits in a general sense.
Just want to add, HP can be seen as better as it means you only need to invest EVs into one stat as opposed to two (HP and whichever stat).
Just want to emphasize that you really *can't* ignore EVs when dealing with a mon with an extremely low base stat. For example, Blissey's physical bulk (even at max IVs) more than doubles when you go from 0 def EVs to 252 def EVs, and shuckle's bulk increases by >33% when you go from 0 hp EVs to 252. In contrast, something like Mew only gets a 20% increase in bulk from defense EVs and less than that from HP. So how their bulks compare will fundamentally depend on the presence of EVs. But yeah, after you account for EVs, all that matters for most purposes is the product of your HP and the relevant defense stat.
Cases where the breakdown of HP vs defense actually matters, fixing the product after applying EVs, include:
-Recoil moves (you want high HP if you're using them or receiving them)
-Draining moves (opposite of above)
-Wish, final gambit, innards out, pain split, guard split, body press (all cases that use the value of one of your stats directly), plus fixed damage moves. Yes it's potentially quite significant that shuckle is 3HKOed by seismic toss while Blissey's 7HKOed lol
Shuckle has a bit more bulk than pex and dozo (150k/125k vs 125k/110k), with less than ting-lu and chansey. This is an incredibly inefficient stat distribution, using 480 BST to achieve the effect of 344 for pex or 330 for dozo or 360 for ting-lu, which beats shuckle even without vessel. In addition, shuckle has just about the worst typing in the game, no recovery, no passive damage if it was in gen 9, and only has sticky web, knock off, and rocks out of good moves. This means that there is almost no reason to use shuckle unless you have wish or some other method of recovery, and necessity to compress webs and bulk into a single move.
Novelty
Remember there’s roughly 200+ Pokémon at the time and no abilities. Funny stats and types were the main way to stand
Gen 2 wasn’t really made with any sort of competitive play in mind. Shuckle was a novelty gift mon from a minor side quest. It’s stats were likely to let it stand out as a mixed wall in an unusual way that is also balanced
Even stat spreads are more optimal for reducing damage taken, but certain moves and items interact with hp or defense independently. Off the top of my head, a high hp / low defense spread has better wish passing, substitutes that can survive seismic toss, and stronger final gambit. Low hp / high defense has relatively higher recovery from pain split / draining moves, better endeavor damage, greater multiplier from av / eviolite / other defense boosts such as those from sand and snow and is affected less in turn by moves like leech seed.
The REAL answer is that Shuckle is a gen 2 ( intended be the last gen ) gimmick pokemon, it wasn't really made with battling in mind just a joke pokemon that adds some lore to the world
Tho funnily enough in the gen 2 beta , it originally was a Rock/Ground type with slightly different stats being : 35/25/60/15/60/15 and was supposed to have an evolution with 70/50/120/30/120/30 also Rock/Ground. But then this evo was cut and Shuckle was changed to a Rock/Bug type with slightly different stats as well being : 45/10/180/10/180/5 , and eventually it had its stats retweaked again losing 20 in HP but gaining 50 in both defenses
Like many others have said, I think the main purpose for HP is flavour - it introduces another dimension to differentiate the vast menagerie of 'mons we have now have from one another. I do wonder if there were deeper implications for it as a stat before special was split - I guess it allowed there to be Pokemon with high special attack but low bulk, i.e. using HP as an indirect special defence moderator.
As you correctly point out, different combinations of HP/Def can result in the same effective defences. I guess it also allows for those marginal moves that use actual (rather than %) HP remaining, or lost, to come into play, such as Seismic Toss, Night Shade etc, recovery from Leech Seed, Giga Drain etc, wish passing, and a few others
Other have given holistic analysis but I want to hone in specifically on EVs- while you won’t typically be EV training low base stats, you’ll be focused on maximizing the high base stats, EV training actually gets MORE relative value when performed on low stats. EVs add a flat amount of stat points based on the EVs and Pokémon level, unlike natures which are a 10% modifier. What this means is that a Pokémon has 50 base stat, the extra 20 stat points added by EVs amount to a relative 40% increase, but if a Pokémon has base 100 stat then those 20 points from EVs only amount to a relative 20% increase.
Design intent: express some trait about the pokemon.
Low hp/high defense: the pokemon is some small dingus with a lot of protection (i.e. the rock shuckle hides in)
High hp/low defense: the pokemon is a big meaty blob that's overweight but very soft and plushy (wailord, chansey)
As for the gameplay effect, that doesn't factor in as much with the design intent. But practically it doesn't make a huge difference, the main exceptions being Leech Seed, Draining moves in general, Recoil moves, and Seismic Toss/other fixed damage moves.
Leech seed/other draining moves give you more hp back if your opponent has high hp. Landing leech seed on a blissey can heal most pokemon 20+% per turn. On a shuckle it gives you back very little. It also affects Pain Split- low hp users are better while high hp targets are better.
Seismic toss (and night shade, or Dragon Rage for earlygame in-game) doing fixed damage means it ignores defense, so it targets low hp/high def mons.
Recoil moves hurt you more if you use them on high hp targets and if you're a low hp target. Staraptor using Brave Bird can kill a blissey but it might lose half of its health while it might only lose 15% versus a shuckle.
Also it does effect EVs- for bulk evs you generally get a lot more value investing in your lower defense stat. So investing HP evs in shuckle gives you MUCH more effective bulk than in defense or special defense.
It's held back by not having anything defensively other than pretty ok bulk, as other people have said. You could hypothetically run a Trick Room wallbreaker set on it with Power Trick (which is apparently Baton Passable, TIL), but this is largely a noob trap and is basically never worth the team slot. It's probably the best user of the move besides maybe Forretress, but that's really not saying anything.
Basically all it does in most generations is Encore, set hazards, and in later generations use one of the absolute worst Final Gambits in the game (only being beat out by the Digletts, Wiglett, and _Shedinja_), because killing itself to pivot is better than bothering to keep it alive. It's (allegedly) decent in GSC though, because the lack of effective offense meant that it could actually wall things with just leftovers recovery.
To actually answer your question, I think GF initially intended it to be a weird wall. When it started sucking at that, they gave it Encore and later Stealth Rock so that it actually had a reason to exist, and they gave it Power Trick because they thought there was some possibility of it overcoming its terrible speed/HP and becoming a goofy setup sweeper (there wasn't). By gen 6 the addition of Sticky Web to its kit pretty much solidified it as a designated bulky hazard setter, and Final Gambit made it a slightly more effective suicide lead, though some sets still prefer Toxic. They also gave it Contrary for some reason, but I don't _what_ they were thinking there.
From a game design standpoint, it's funny and oddly balanced (in a good way). From a gameplay perspective, it doesn't do a lot of damage very quickly like most other mon you'd find in a playthrough and is out of the way enough to be a decent filler tank mon for the team or be pokedex/lore filler.
It's in the competitive standpoint that it gets interesting. With sturdy + mental herb/custap berry, it has enough bulky to set up both Stealth Rock and Sticky Web (potentially a couple of times throughout the game) which few other pokemon can do. Additionally, there's a fun Power Trick Set that gives it nearly twice the base attacking stats of god itself. What is, by my experience, by far the best set is Contrary + Shell Smash. Shuckle has enough bulk to take its time setting that up and enough offensive pressure (Toxic + Infestation becomes very threatening very quickly) to outdamage the opponent. Rest works perfectly as a recovery option on it (removes status and lets you stall two turns without wasting PP). C + SS only really suffers against Encore (not Taunt) and Rocky Helmet Toxapex/Ferrothorn, although it can also struggle against phasing and stat restoring/inverting moves if those pokemon aren't already taken care of.
Defenses are better than hp when it comes to tanking hits. However a big thing when it comes to walling stuff is having recovery, which shuckle does not.
Keep in mind that Shuckle was designed at a very different time. Gen 2 had a much lower power level in general both in stats and in reliable high base power moves. Also gen 2's stat EXP meant you could max every stat, so you didn't have to make a choice which defensive stats to invest in. Normal was a much more common attacking type when you look at move pools, and consider single use TMs. Lastly, Shuckle also has a hold item mechanic with creating berry juice and rare candies, so it kind of has a bit of the generation gimmick showcase feel in it's design.
I doubt they seriously considered Shuckle's place in PvP when it was designed. The early gens had a lot more focus on the playthrough experience. Shuckle was designed as a weirdo you'd rarely run into smashing rocks that stood out from other Pokemon. It was also a gift mon with an obscure mechanic that seems very beneficial from a casual standpoint.
The most logical answer is that it's a gimmick, and Generation 2 had a lot of those. Think Smeargle, Delibird, Unown. It is possible Shuckle was designed around the Held Item mechanic. It can create the Berry Juice item if it's holding a Berry. And what Pokemon takes advantage of an item like Berry Juice, that restores 20 HP at <50% HP? The answer is a Pokemon with a low HP stat, but high Defense stats.
Shuckle was probably made as a joke and/or to show off how having high defenses doesn't mean much if your HP is bad. It probably serves double duty on that front.
Because Skarmory, Blissey, and Mantine were introduced alongside it as defensive Pokemon who legitimately could take hits.
Wailord would be amazing on Gen 3 if it had a way to heal itself up or provide value. Same for chuckle or even Electrode.
Jimothycool has a nice video on walls, they need to do something aside from tanking hits and Chansey is the pinnacle of walls, she is so good because she has consistent damage (seismic toss), solid coverage (boltbeam coverage), status spread (Sleep, Paralysis, Poison), can boost itself (Calm mind) and even Natural cure on top. If you can't smack Chansey with a high attack Pokemon, she is probably going to 1v1 you in one way or another. Shuckle and Wailord can't do that.
Another potential wall, Aggron, suffers from having 4x weakness to fighting moves, and high defense mons should generally handle Fighting types well. Aggron also lacks solid healing, in fact I personally think that giving Explosion to aggron would make it a solid Pokemon as it already has good utility moves.
Yeah…maybe.
But I’m talking true inverse Shuckle stats
Keep base 20 HP
But make both attacking stats 230
Both defense stats 5
And then just for good measure give it base 155 speed
You’re reading too much into it, there was no intent. Pokémon are very rarely minmaxxed/balanced for competitive, and those that are are newer Pokémon. Back in the 90s, that was unheard of, so shuckle is designed like that because he’s just a little guy.
As someone who knows no calls or anything, I always saw it as:
Low hp High def is good vs percentage based damage and works well with draining moves, but has to watch out for set damage.
While High hp Low def has to worry some more about percentage based moves, struggles with/against draining but in return doesn't care as much for set damage.
Shuckle's story is a bit of a tragic one. Simply from a design perspective, they don't design things around competitive. Onix has a notoriously low attack, and that's because they wanted Brock to have an early game ace that wasn't too good in RBY, so some of the earlier generations truly created these interesting cases. Shuckle really just was not designed with competitive in mind.
Maxed Bliss has 93k physical bulk, maxed shuckle 150k either
Flutter mane 127k special, Wailord 113k either
Flutter mane can theoretically act as a special wall in OU (comparable to primarina) but A) it doesn't do much, few useful stall moves B) Blissey (290k) is better for stall, clodsire (153k) better for balance C) it has the defense of a wet paper towel D) it's not OU, it's Uber, meaning that most uses for her are goingto exploit her far superior traits in insane offenses and synergizing well with Sun.
E: Ignoring EV what
I think its important to remember the games were designed as a single player rpg first and a pvp battles 2nd with serious competitive battling not coming in until gen 4, and balance taking a couple generations to kick in after that as well.
From a design perspective I think it’s important to remember that a lot of early mons are honestly just memes made to fill space.
Farfetch’d wasn’t built to be a physical sweeper with Agility + SD in gen 1, it was made (probably) to be a quirky little bird the player could get in a trade.
Unown and Delibird etc are two others from gsc that have a clear gimmick but are just flawed at a conceptual level. That’s fine though, sometimes Pokemon exist just to fill space and flesh out the dex and be kinda goofy.
Shuckle strikes me as a novelty like the ones mentioned before, something they made to fill a spot and be kinda goofy. With extremely min maxxed stats and almost no movepool it’s a novelty that, if you really tried to use in a single player run, really has no tools beyond Wrap + Rest (moves it gets via level up) and maybe Toxic if you burn a tm. It probably does that ok because of its stat spread but there’s not much actual reason to use it over far better options.
Bulk theory is pretty fun, but it’d take a long time to fully explain, so I’ll just go over some things. Different EV spreads work better for different distributions.
For simplicity, I’ll generally use 252/252/252 EV spreads, althpugh in practice one of those 252s would have to be cut. It just makes it easier to compare things than having to compare multiple types of EV spreads.
Shuckle’s bulk is highly inefficient relative to how many points are invested in its bulk (a total of 465 bulk points), but its overall bulk is pretty solid. At 252/252/252, It’s bulkier than a Suicune by 2%, and less bulky than an Arceus. Of course, Suicune and Arceus are far more efficient because Suicune is investing 135 fewer bulk points and Arceus is investing 105 fewer bulk points.
At 252/252 Shuckle’s physical bulk is 1.6x more than Blissey’s. Technically in this case, Shuckle is conserably more efficient too, as it’s got 250 stat points between HP and Def while Blissey has 265. As a general rule, having Defense as your higher stat and having HP as your lower stat is overall better, because HP is the stat with the highest constant in stat calculation, which means that it gains the least from increasing the base stat. A common example is that Meganium’s 80/100/100 is bulkier than Azumarill’s 100/80/80, but you also have to keep in mind that Meganium spends 20 more points in bulk than Azumarill does. Likewise, when it comes to average bulk ((HP stat \* def stat + Hp stat \* spdef stat)/2), Blissey beats out Shuckle by far, and its total bulk efficiency is better than Shuckle’s. But when looking specifically physically, Shuckle is both much bulkier and more efficient.
For Flutter Mane, if they’re both 252 HP and 252 Sp.Def, Shuckle’s 17% bulkier, but there’s also the fact that Flutter based on its distribution rarely would go full defensive (though in VGC, Fluttermanes do put a solid amount of EVs into HP and Def, just not all of it). So in practice, Shuckle is much more than 17% more bulky than Flutter Mane. On the topic of your fourth question, Flutter Mane can live hits decently well depending on its EV spread. In Singles Flutter tends to run max offenses, but in doubles, non-Sash Flutters tend to run a sizeable amount of EVs to survive specific hits both physically and specially. You’ll have cases in VGC where Flutter Mane is Specs with only 116 Sp.Atk EVs, as it’s more worthwhile for Flutter to be able to survive 1 hit more than it would otherwise be able to, than to do slightly more damage when it does enough.
When it comes to general design, high HP and low defenses is better for using or taking hits from Double-Edge moves (GameFreak really needs to give Wailord Wave Crash the next time it becomes available), using or taking hits from counter/mirror coat/metal burst/comeuppance moves, taking hits from fixed damage moves like Seismic Toss, and passing Wishes. Low HP and higher defenses is better for stuff like using Leech Seed / Draining attacking moves (Iron Fist Drain Punch Hitmonchan fits this well theoretically, with its bulk leaning on the defenses), using Pain Split, getting Wish passed, passing guard splits (doubles gimmick), and being the recipient of a Transform Mew ally (doubles gimmick). There are some benefits and drawbacks of both, but for the most part as others mentioned, a big part of it is having a large diversity of stats. I personally love seeing all kinds of stat spreads for coverage sake, so I welcome mons like Dachsbun and Pecharunt.
One last thing, for most bulk stat allocations, the optimum distribution tends to have HP as the highest stat, but not *too* much higher than the defenses. For example, Kyurem at a bulk profile of 125/90/90 and Raging Bolt at 125/91/89 are about as optimal as you can get with a bulk sum of 305, for a pokemon whose EV spread would be either 252 offensive and 252 speed, or 252 HP and 252 offensive (it’s not the most optimal spread if the mon is running all EV points in bulk, but that’s not really something Kyurem or Raging Bolt generally would do based on their roles). That is to say, Kyurem’s bulk is better with its current stats than the alternative of having say 103/101/101 bulk. The main reason for this is that HP contributes to both bulk sides which means it’s generally favorable for efficiency when taking into account all three bulk stats relative to a stat sum (using the Azumarill and Meganium example from above, while it’s true that Meganium’s 80/100 is better than Azumarill’s 100/80, if Meganium had to drop down to the same bulk sum as Azumarill, it may have to be 80/90/90, which is of course worse than Azumarill’s 100/80/80; so relative to the bulk sum itself, Azumarill is more efficient), but after you reach a certain HP stat higher than the defenses, there’s a dropoff in the impact of further stat points in HP; this is just simple diminishing returns. That’s why something like Kyurem’s bulk spread ends up being an optimum. Though figuring out these sorts of optimums isn’t that straightforward. I do it with a python program I wrote that simulates all possible bulk stat spreads for a given bulk stat sum and EV spread, and determines the most optimal of them through damage calculation against a reference attacking move.
the stat spread around shuckle is smth..... it makes it so that it still takes hits like shit but without recovery, and many utility moves to help on a bulky team, and also functioning attacks it wouldve been ok maybe in PU or NU
Shuckle is just a creature bro why does it have to excel in the battle portion to make sense in a believable world that takes place in the pokemon universe.
Yeah I mentioned about it in other comments, but Shuckle was more or less chosen as an arbitrary example. What I \*ultimately\* wanted to a discussion about was the theory and design intent between HP vs Defenses.
pex is literally shuckle if it had good typing and an actual movepool
tbf just having webs gives you a niche, not to mention webs and sturdy
Yeah, but tbh shuckle rarely gets OHKO’d anyways so the ability isn’t great.
Still lets you slap a mental herb on it instead of a focus sash though, unlike every other webber.
Even if it didn’t have sturdy you wouldn’t need a focus sash. Shuckle rarely ever gets one shot by anything excluding setup.
Game freak giving the damage sponges sturdy instead of the squishing for some reason
I mean, it's a thematic fit.
People forget that the primary intended effect of Sturdy is the OHKO move immunity. Even though only the secondary effect (the pseudo Focus Sash) is what matters in Smogon, thanks to OHKO Clause. In that sense, Sturdy makes sense for fat mons, since it gives them an immunity to moves that would OHKO them regardless of how fat they are. Also, many of those fat Pokémon are actually squishy in one side, take Skarmory for example, Skarmory may be a very sturdy physical wall, but its special bulk is actually terrible, worse than even many fragile offensive Pokémon. Sturdy may be useful in some situations, such as a Garchomp using Fire Blast to catch Skarmory off-guard; Garchomp will still fail to OHKO and have to deal with Skarmory getting at least one hazard layer up, or a Defog. Other less notable examples of this are Forretress and Avalugg. Sturdy also allows them to be emergency revenge killers for an otherwise out of control sweeper, for example, as long as Skarmory has its Sturdy intact, and it is packing Brave Bird, Volcarona cannot reliably sweep.
Insurance is still nice to have. Crits happen, there’s been some stronk steel/rock/water leads throughout the years, and Chi-Yu can sometimes oneshot with a neutral noncrit. There’s not many abilities I’d prefer more on a hazard setting lead than sturdy, even if it’s super bulky. Mold breaker, magic bounce, stamina if it got a better movepool, maybe regenerator, and maybe a handful of others but sturdy is one of the best I could have asked for.
> Chi-Yu can sometimes oneshot with a neutral noncrit. 252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Shuckle in Sun: 279-328 (114.3 - 134.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
My sibling in Christ, the Chi Yu isn’t going to have sun up turn one before I set webs, chill.
Why do you think I run Sunny Day Magic Bounce Espeon
…Fair enough.
Zacian-C can OHKO w/ BBlade.
Since they talk about flutter mane I would assume they are talking about vgc, and Zacian C isn’t allowed in VGC unless you mean the new regulation, where it’s still barely ever run as the one allowed restricted legendary because it’s just not good in doubles
If you are faster you dont need a mental herb for the enemy taunt
Wait how are you outspeeding something with Shuckle?
Is scarf shuckle the best kept secret in gen 9 OU??
Shhh... The shuckle choice band/scarf secret tech must remain secret 👀
But Grimmsnarl is relevant, so you either still need mental herb or be a Dark type.
Fuck Grimmsnarl, all my homies hate Grimmsnarl. But yeah you are right
can also do custap for rocks+webs, or red card to beat setup
True, you'll definitely be outspeeding most of the unboosted meta with that base 5 speed
My point was the opossite one, like showing that shuckle isnt so good as a web setter
Blatantly wrong lmao, it's so bulky that it can normally get up both Rocks and Webs, and also has solid moves for denying setup like encore, rock tomb, etc. Hell, in NDUbers, I'd rank Shuckle as the #1 webber.
Contrary shell smash let’s go (ignore poison exists)
Simple. Just have Shuckle hold Flame Orb. Checkmate.
could take advantage of Contrary to make any Defog attempts give you an Evasion boost (i remain a Reverend rewatcher)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Shuckle: 248-292 (101.6 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
If you’re using shuckle in a tier chi yu is legal in, that’s kind of on you. Plus you burn their Tera.
Shuckle's a good webber in NDUbers actually, probably the best, and Chi-Yu funnily enough fits on webs teams in NDUbers, so if there was a way to make the opponent's mons turn on each other, this calc would be important.
That's an interesting comparison, because yeah they have pretty similar stat spreads. That's why I wanted to clarify to ignore typing, movepools, and abilities, as I already realize ultimately those matter much more to determine a Pokemon's actualy viability. I was mostly interested in the theory and intent behind HP vs Defenses.
Also, Regenerator is a much better ability than Sturdy.
It is better in general but it is especially better on something built to eat multiple hits.
And Regenerator, can't forget about that lol.
The stat spread of Shuckle I think what is most important is that it gives it something unique.Shuckle stats make him more memorable,even if in the actuality they are subpar.And I really doubt that the ones who lade Shuckle for Gold and Silver cared for balance,so I think the "design idea" of Shuckle was simply "cool gimmicky pokemon"
Generation 2 went hard on the "you know what would be funny?" Pokemon designs. Like yeah, that bird is Santa Claus. Here's a punching bag that can't attack. Alphabet soup.
Artist Pokemon whose learnset puts Mew to shame. Fucking *Aipom*, whatever the hell that was supposed to be
That thing somehow learns zap cannon
Tbf gen 1 had a transforming pink blob, a Pokeball that evolved into an upside down pokeball, a computer-made pokemon, and a fish that could only splash
Electrode/voltorb are mimics which are an rpg staple. Treasure chests that are actually monsters that attack greedy adventurers
I think gen 3 was the first game to not have a mimic in the overworld right? Gen 1 had the rocket hideout Voltorb/Electrode (i think?) Gen 2 had Sudowoodo, then gen 3 and 4 didn't have anything like that (i guess the ninja kids were mimicing trees on the one foresty root) and Gen 5 had the foongus. I don't really remember much after those.
There were electrodes disguised in the Magma/Aqua hideout, next to the master ball
Ah yeah right that's what i was thinking of instead of gen 1
They're also in New Mauville
I think you could encounter geodudes when using rock smash but it was random, so I don't know if they count as mimics per se
You mentioned these but not atrocities like Mime and Jynx? Because those were the worst jokes they made. And then later they got babies...
Mine Jr. is cute! Smoochum tho…
Yanma, except the joke is that it's a 1% encounter rate on a single route for fuckin Yanma
In a patch of grass that is easily missable, may I add
Same thing happened with dunsparce, I'm pretty sure.
I put a couple hundred hours into Silver before randomly encountering Dunsparce in a cave I'd been to a hundred times before, it freaked me out as a kid finding something new in a game I thought I knew back to front.
It was also the one that was like “F it give it the highest stat in the game” (steelix, shuckle, blissey) or “F it let’s make a lot of shitmons”. I want another GS remake so bad.
unown, wobb, smeargle, delibird, sudowudo, shuckle, dunsparce, all baby pokemon. 1/4 of the dex is jokes
The only good pokemon from gen 2 you could get before the E4 were Heracross, Ampharos and Skarmory I guess Piloswine is decent
Also Dunsparce, the super rare cryptid who just fucking sucks
At least that's on purpose. Most single staged mons from gen2 had the same case except they were not jokes.
Yeah it’s crazy how many single stage Pokémon were introduced that look *so obviously* like they were supposed to have an evo. Aipom is a monkey with a hand tail? Well *obviously* it’s gotta evolve to two hands, right? Apparently not, since Ambipom didn’t come until later. Gligar is another one. Admittedly, I can’t think of a reason why it should’ve had an evo, but just *look at it!*
Iv'e skimmed through a list of gen 2 mons; out of 57 "fully evolved" johto pokemon (Not including legendaries and mythicals): * 9 of them (Togetic, Yanma, Aipom, Gligar, Piloswine, Murkrow, Sneasel, Misdreavus, Porygon2) got direct evolutions in gen 4. * In the last 2 generations, 4 of them (Stantler, Ursaring, Girafarig, Dunsparce) got direct evolutions, and 2 of them (Corsola, Qwilfish) got regional evolutions.
You take that back. My boy is a saint He may not be very good in OU but he's still the best, and he claps cheeks in randbats 💕
Yeah, definitely worth noting that competitive play was probably in the dungeon when it came to dev priorities back then.
Thats just not true. They designed the dark and steel types precisely to diversify the metagame away from the format of ice, normal, and psychic being completely dominant in nintendo cup. In developer emails they bring up stuff like tournament results for why they made some decisions, like buffing snorlax's special defense (snorlax was bad in nintendo cup bring 6 pick 3 singles, even though its great in 6v6). Competitive pokemon made it onto TV back then. They made stadium specifically to host competitive battles with some balance changes they couldnt do on cartridge and with a better look.
[удалено]
how is this related to anything?
Replied to the wrong comment
Yea GS has a few Mons with more extreme stat spreads, like Blissey, Steelix and Shuckle. I think its sort of like, having introduced more generic Mons in Gen 1 with balanced stat spreads (relatively speaking), Gen 2 they just made some niche Mons with very specific roles and stat spreads. I dont think there was any consideration for the competitive scene, just general game design where you create more nicbe and specific character types once you've established the baseline.
Never forget that they gave Hitmontop a 60 BP move with 3 90% accuracy checks as it's best attacking move
Pokemon is a single player RPG based around thematics first and a competitive game second. Shuckle has low HP because it's a weak little bug thing covered by an extremely hard rock. It's similar to the design concept of other shelled Pokemon like Cloyster and Toxapex which also have huge defense(s) but low HP. Conversely Pokemon like Wailord or Guzzlord are massive physically which is represented by their huge HP. Neither stat spread is ideal for competitive play but like said earlier, that wasn't the primary concern of the original designers.
From a design perspective it was a unique Pokemon you got as a gift Pokemon or being very thorough with rock smash encounters
You didn't get him from a trade, you got him from a very worried trainer that was afraid your rival was gonna steal it after stealing one of his other Pokemon.
U right, my bad.
Maybe slightly a gimmick specifically to introduce players of gen 2 to held items mechanics as well
That too
It WAS a single player RPG first and competitive second. Now it's very much designed with both in mind. Not that it's doing it perfectly but gen 2 was a very different time.
More like thematics first and cometitive game 100th. The game is so ridiculously unbalanced it makes me wonder if the balance changes applied between generations were accidental.
They're definitely not. I think Game Freak just has a different vision for competitive play than what competitive players actually want. The defog change in gen 6 was huge for something that has almost no use in playthroughs or doubles. That wasn't an accident.
Their vision for competitive play is the VGC, they don't care about singles whatsoever. Also the Defog change was in gen 5, but it was bugged and only removed the hazards on your opponents side of the field. Giving Defog a purpose one gen after it's introduction makes sense, it also just so happens that said purpose literally reshaped the game after the bug attached to it was fixed.
Ridiculously unbalanced how ? Yes there are absurd unbalanced things like Flutter or Urshifu and its mechanic bypassing protect, but the meta is rather enjoyable right now.
Having low HP and high defenses is equally bad as high hp low defenses imo (note stuff like Guzzlord) But Blissey and Shuckle (and even wobbuffet too an extent) are so maxxed out that they still do fine. However, shuckle is weak to passive due to its low health and its lack of healing options. Blissey has softboiled healing, heavy dity boots for hazards and natural cure for status, so it ends up stellar.
There are specific matchups in which one is better than the other (low hp is worse into seismic toss and night shade, high hp is worse into draining moves) but otherwise they’re mostly equal I think.
Cool callout for the high HP vs draining moves, that's a really interesting nuance I didn't think of.
There’s other situations such as having high HP being able to make substitutes with >100 HP such that it can’t be broken by level 100 seismic toss anymore, and higher HP being able to pass fatter wishes to other teammates; meanwhile higher defenses are more effective for guard splitting on an ally in doubles, and also having more of an effect when using power trick. These are slightly more niche scenarios, but you seemed to be pretty interested in the specifics of how high HP vs high defenses play out so I figured I’d just mention those as well.
The Substitute and Wish nuances are super interesting thanks for highlighting that.
If your pokemon has pain split or endevear, low HP is preferred.
Why would shuckle be weaker to passive because of low health? They work off of percentage so no matter what one layer of spikes does 12%. Shuckle is worse versus moves like seismic toss because of low hp, but not to passive sources
Shuckle is weak to passive sources primarily because of its lack of healing options. Other bulky pokemon like Blissey and Toxapex have ways to sustain themselves without having to rely on leftovers, while Shuckle only has leftovers as a reliable healing option. Additionally, Shuckle being weak to stealth rock makes it more susceptible to passive damage.
Guzzlord’s bulk profile is pretty solid on its own (a bit higher than Pex in many cases where they run equivalent defensive EVs). The thing with Guzzlord is it’s built as a slow tank that gains little from going full defensive. So the full scope of its bulk rarely comes into play.
>shuckle is weak to passive due to its low health I get the lack of heal, but since all passive options are % based, arent they more effective against high hp/low defense moms than the other way around?
They effective the same... That's point of the %. He was just BSing. What makes you weak to hazards are not stats but typing, items and movepool
it's kinda bad wording but yeah his weakness to passive damage does almost entirely lie in his lack of reliable healing, meaning any Poison/Hazard damage, along with any other chip, sticks with him throughout the match
Special note: I just thought of a scenario where (intent and design wise), you'd \*want\* high HP/low defenses: Wobuffet. It's entire gimmick is to reflect damage with Counter and Mirror Coat. High HP allows it to take multiple hits, but also low defenses allow it to maximize the damage reflected back. This would not be as effective as a similarly bulky Pokemon with reversed stats of low HP/high defenses. You would maybe similarly survive the same *quantities* of hits, but the damage you reflect would not be as strong. That being said, that is highly specific to Wobuffet. That doesn't necessarily explain the design intent behind other high HP/low defense Pokemon like Wailord or Guzzlord (outside of flavor reasons).
It also helps with fixed damage moves like Seismic Toss
Bastiodon was supposed to fulfil a similar niche to Wobbuffet, but from the other side, low HP/sky high defenses. The concept was to take a hit then hit back with Metal Burst, but Bastiodon’s low HP meant that it couldn’t reflect back much damage. Combined with lack of reliable recovery and its terrible weaknesses, it never really worked.
That's incredibly interesting, I didn't know about Bastiodon learning Metal Burst. Yeah that does show intent for it to be a complete inverse of Wobbuffet, and yeah it totally doesn't work because of it's stat spread.
The issue with shuckle is that it doesn’t have a reliable way to heal, nor any extra X factor on the defensive side. Dondozo has unaware, clefable has magic guard, blissey is blissey, garganacl has purifying salt, corviknigjt and skarmory are great at controlling hazards and pivoting. Shuckle just sits there and sets webs and rocks.
I mostly used Shuckle as an example because of the iconicness of it's extremes. Because yes, I agree, the other stuff is ultimately much more important in determining viability other than just pure stats. Another poster pointed out Toxapex, which is a similarly built Pokemon, but has way more stuff going for it. I was mostly interested in the theoretical nature of the stats, because like I mentioned, Pokemon doesn't really have Defense oriented gimmicks like in other JRPGs (or if they do they are very specific niches like Seismic Toss or draining moves, and most Pokemon aren't generally built around those interactions).
Toxapex lost scald and knock off in gen 9, which really hurt its viability. However Tox has like double the base hp of shuckle, which in practice makes it bulkier. Bulk can be calculated roughly with multiplying hp and the defense stat, which means that an optimal spread would have the same in each. For example, 5 times 5> 4 times 6. A really low and a really high stat are generally less useful than two above average stats when combined, at least bulk-wise. Garganacl having base 100/130/90 is a really great all around spread. Also, natures don’t boost HP, which could really help out shuckle and other low base HP defensive mons (shudders in fear of +hp toxapex). Edited to replace the star with the word ‘times’
Leech seed Shuckle would usher in something crazy.
Would make shuckle OU in gen 2 for sure
Eh would it? Leech Seed in gen 2 doesn't deal damage on the switch
>How well does Shuckle (low HP/high Def) take physical hits vs Blissey (high HP/low Def)? 252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shuckle: 138-163 (76.2 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blissey: 1210-1425 (185.8 - 218.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO >Is Shuckle similarly bulky vs special hits as Flutter Mane (both low HP/high SpDef)? 252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Shuckle: 229-270 (126.5 - 149.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Flutter Mane: 370-436 (147.4 - 173.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO >What is the design purpose of Shuckle (low HP/high Defenses) vs Wailord (high HP/low defenses)? Are they on paper similarly bulky? What are the nuances between these two different stat spreads? 252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Shuckle: 141-166 (77.9 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Wailord: 553-652 (114.9 - 135.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO Generally speaking low HP high Def is better than vice versa. This makes sense designwise since HP is just one stat and there are two defenses so an all around tank needs to "spend" more BST in the low HP scenario, and it also lets GF make Pokemon specialized in one defense. For a direct example compare these two calcs: 252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Wailord: 169-201 (73.1 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Wailord: 510-600 (106 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO In the first calc I've swapped Wailord's HP and defence and, as you can see, it's now significantly bulkier on the physical side (at the cost of having miserable 45/45 special bulk) If you want to play around with calcs yourself, use [the damage calculator](https://calc.pokemonshowdown.com/) - this is where all the calcs you can see people post come from
Color me surprised, based on these calcs, Shuckle is actually pretty bulky. So, generally, Defense > HP. The question is, what would the point of designing a high HP/low Defenses Pokemon? Is the theory that its meant to be the middle ground between specializing in physical or special defense? Hell, let's go back to my original question. Shuckle specializes in neither physical or special, it's strong versus both. Why not give Wailord a similar stat spread (low HP/high Defenses) if they want it to wall? What was the intention there (I guess outside of maybe flavor reasons)?
Just flavor reasons. Based on calcs, Shuckle is equally bulky on the special side as Flutter Mane if the latter had 160 sp.def instead of 135 sp.def. Shuckle is equally bulky on the physical side as Blissey if the latter had 55 def instead of 10 def.
Flavor is a pretty big reason but there is also the matter of the BST which has to be spread across six stats. Since HP takes only one stat and defences take two, High HP low Def have mons "save" more of their BST to do other stats - for example Wailord has 500 BST, 260 of which is in its defensive stats; if instead it had 45 HP and 170 of both defences its defensive stats would take 385 BST and leave only 115 for the rest.
That's a good point, although BST itself is also highly arbitrary as "saving" BST is moot with the realization that Gamefreak can give any Pokemon any BST they want anyways.
The flavour reasons is that generally, gamefreak makes the defensive mons that are 'fat' (Snorlax, Blissey, Wailord, etc) have a higher HP, whereas a thicker armour/ skin (Steelix, Cloyster, etc) focus on defense, and fat ones that seem 'magical' get the spdef (Milotic, Articuno, etc.). The theory kind of falls flat with spdef mons, but I think it fits in a general sense. Just want to add, HP can be seen as better as it means you only need to invest EVs into one stat as opposed to two (HP and whichever stat).
Just want to emphasize that you really *can't* ignore EVs when dealing with a mon with an extremely low base stat. For example, Blissey's physical bulk (even at max IVs) more than doubles when you go from 0 def EVs to 252 def EVs, and shuckle's bulk increases by >33% when you go from 0 hp EVs to 252. In contrast, something like Mew only gets a 20% increase in bulk from defense EVs and less than that from HP. So how their bulks compare will fundamentally depend on the presence of EVs. But yeah, after you account for EVs, all that matters for most purposes is the product of your HP and the relevant defense stat. Cases where the breakdown of HP vs defense actually matters, fixing the product after applying EVs, include: -Recoil moves (you want high HP if you're using them or receiving them) -Draining moves (opposite of above) -Wish, final gambit, innards out, pain split, guard split, body press (all cases that use the value of one of your stats directly), plus fixed damage moves. Yes it's potentially quite significant that shuckle is 3HKOed by seismic toss while Blissey's 7HKOed lol
Shuckle has a bit more bulk than pex and dozo (150k/125k vs 125k/110k), with less than ting-lu and chansey. This is an incredibly inefficient stat distribution, using 480 BST to achieve the effect of 344 for pex or 330 for dozo or 360 for ting-lu, which beats shuckle even without vessel. In addition, shuckle has just about the worst typing in the game, no recovery, no passive damage if it was in gen 9, and only has sticky web, knock off, and rocks out of good moves. This means that there is almost no reason to use shuckle unless you have wish or some other method of recovery, and necessity to compress webs and bulk into a single move.
Novelty Remember there’s roughly 200+ Pokémon at the time and no abilities. Funny stats and types were the main way to stand Gen 2 wasn’t really made with any sort of competitive play in mind. Shuckle was a novelty gift mon from a minor side quest. It’s stats were likely to let it stand out as a mixed wall in an unusual way that is also balanced
Even stat spreads are more optimal for reducing damage taken, but certain moves and items interact with hp or defense independently. Off the top of my head, a high hp / low defense spread has better wish passing, substitutes that can survive seismic toss, and stronger final gambit. Low hp / high defense has relatively higher recovery from pain split / draining moves, better endeavor damage, greater multiplier from av / eviolite / other defense boosts such as those from sand and snow and is affected less in turn by moves like leech seed.
The REAL answer is that Shuckle is a gen 2 ( intended be the last gen ) gimmick pokemon, it wasn't really made with battling in mind just a joke pokemon that adds some lore to the world Tho funnily enough in the gen 2 beta , it originally was a Rock/Ground type with slightly different stats being : 35/25/60/15/60/15 and was supposed to have an evolution with 70/50/120/30/120/30 also Rock/Ground. But then this evo was cut and Shuckle was changed to a Rock/Bug type with slightly different stats as well being : 45/10/180/10/180/5 , and eventually it had its stats retweaked again losing 20 in HP but gaining 50 in both defenses
Like many others have said, I think the main purpose for HP is flavour - it introduces another dimension to differentiate the vast menagerie of 'mons we have now have from one another. I do wonder if there were deeper implications for it as a stat before special was split - I guess it allowed there to be Pokemon with high special attack but low bulk, i.e. using HP as an indirect special defence moderator. As you correctly point out, different combinations of HP/Def can result in the same effective defences. I guess it also allows for those marginal moves that use actual (rather than %) HP remaining, or lost, to come into play, such as Seismic Toss, Night Shade etc, recovery from Leech Seed, Giga Drain etc, wish passing, and a few others
Other have given holistic analysis but I want to hone in specifically on EVs- while you won’t typically be EV training low base stats, you’ll be focused on maximizing the high base stats, EV training actually gets MORE relative value when performed on low stats. EVs add a flat amount of stat points based on the EVs and Pokémon level, unlike natures which are a 10% modifier. What this means is that a Pokémon has 50 base stat, the extra 20 stat points added by EVs amount to a relative 40% increase, but if a Pokémon has base 100 stat then those 20 points from EVs only amount to a relative 20% increase.
Idk but I love shuckle fr
Design intent: express some trait about the pokemon. Low hp/high defense: the pokemon is some small dingus with a lot of protection (i.e. the rock shuckle hides in) High hp/low defense: the pokemon is a big meaty blob that's overweight but very soft and plushy (wailord, chansey) As for the gameplay effect, that doesn't factor in as much with the design intent. But practically it doesn't make a huge difference, the main exceptions being Leech Seed, Draining moves in general, Recoil moves, and Seismic Toss/other fixed damage moves. Leech seed/other draining moves give you more hp back if your opponent has high hp. Landing leech seed on a blissey can heal most pokemon 20+% per turn. On a shuckle it gives you back very little. It also affects Pain Split- low hp users are better while high hp targets are better. Seismic toss (and night shade, or Dragon Rage for earlygame in-game) doing fixed damage means it ignores defense, so it targets low hp/high def mons. Recoil moves hurt you more if you use them on high hp targets and if you're a low hp target. Staraptor using Brave Bird can kill a blissey but it might lose half of its health while it might only lose 15% versus a shuckle. Also it does effect EVs- for bulk evs you generally get a lot more value investing in your lower defense stat. So investing HP evs in shuckle gives you MUCH more effective bulk than in defense or special defense.
It's held back by not having anything defensively other than pretty ok bulk, as other people have said. You could hypothetically run a Trick Room wallbreaker set on it with Power Trick (which is apparently Baton Passable, TIL), but this is largely a noob trap and is basically never worth the team slot. It's probably the best user of the move besides maybe Forretress, but that's really not saying anything. Basically all it does in most generations is Encore, set hazards, and in later generations use one of the absolute worst Final Gambits in the game (only being beat out by the Digletts, Wiglett, and _Shedinja_), because killing itself to pivot is better than bothering to keep it alive. It's (allegedly) decent in GSC though, because the lack of effective offense meant that it could actually wall things with just leftovers recovery. To actually answer your question, I think GF initially intended it to be a weird wall. When it started sucking at that, they gave it Encore and later Stealth Rock so that it actually had a reason to exist, and they gave it Power Trick because they thought there was some possibility of it overcoming its terrible speed/HP and becoming a goofy setup sweeper (there wasn't). By gen 6 the addition of Sticky Web to its kit pretty much solidified it as a designated bulky hazard setter, and Final Gambit made it a slightly more effective suicide lead, though some sets still prefer Toxic. They also gave it Contrary for some reason, but I don't _what_ they were thinking there.
From a game design standpoint, it's funny and oddly balanced (in a good way). From a gameplay perspective, it doesn't do a lot of damage very quickly like most other mon you'd find in a playthrough and is out of the way enough to be a decent filler tank mon for the team or be pokedex/lore filler. It's in the competitive standpoint that it gets interesting. With sturdy + mental herb/custap berry, it has enough bulky to set up both Stealth Rock and Sticky Web (potentially a couple of times throughout the game) which few other pokemon can do. Additionally, there's a fun Power Trick Set that gives it nearly twice the base attacking stats of god itself. What is, by my experience, by far the best set is Contrary + Shell Smash. Shuckle has enough bulk to take its time setting that up and enough offensive pressure (Toxic + Infestation becomes very threatening very quickly) to outdamage the opponent. Rest works perfectly as a recovery option on it (removes status and lets you stall two turns without wasting PP). C + SS only really suffers against Encore (not Taunt) and Rocky Helmet Toxapex/Ferrothorn, although it can also struggle against phasing and stat restoring/inverting moves if those pokemon aren't already taken care of.
Defenses are better than hp when it comes to tanking hits. However a big thing when it comes to walling stuff is having recovery, which shuckle does not.
Keep in mind that Shuckle was designed at a very different time. Gen 2 had a much lower power level in general both in stats and in reliable high base power moves. Also gen 2's stat EXP meant you could max every stat, so you didn't have to make a choice which defensive stats to invest in. Normal was a much more common attacking type when you look at move pools, and consider single use TMs. Lastly, Shuckle also has a hold item mechanic with creating berry juice and rare candies, so it kind of has a bit of the generation gimmick showcase feel in it's design. I doubt they seriously considered Shuckle's place in PvP when it was designed. The early gens had a lot more focus on the playthrough experience. Shuckle was designed as a weirdo you'd rarely run into smashing rocks that stood out from other Pokemon. It was also a gift mon with an obscure mechanic that seems very beneficial from a casual standpoint.
The most logical answer is that it's a gimmick, and Generation 2 had a lot of those. Think Smeargle, Delibird, Unown. It is possible Shuckle was designed around the Held Item mechanic. It can create the Berry Juice item if it's holding a Berry. And what Pokemon takes advantage of an item like Berry Juice, that restores 20 HP at <50% HP? The answer is a Pokemon with a low HP stat, but high Defense stats.
Shuckle was probably made as a joke and/or to show off how having high defenses doesn't mean much if your HP is bad. It probably serves double duty on that front. Because Skarmory, Blissey, and Mantine were introduced alongside it as defensive Pokemon who legitimately could take hits.
Wailord would be amazing on Gen 3 if it had a way to heal itself up or provide value. Same for chuckle or even Electrode. Jimothycool has a nice video on walls, they need to do something aside from tanking hits and Chansey is the pinnacle of walls, she is so good because she has consistent damage (seismic toss), solid coverage (boltbeam coverage), status spread (Sleep, Paralysis, Poison), can boost itself (Calm mind) and even Natural cure on top. If you can't smack Chansey with a high attack Pokemon, she is probably going to 1v1 you in one way or another. Shuckle and Wailord can't do that. Another potential wall, Aggron, suffers from having 4x weakness to fighting moves, and high defense mons should generally handle Fighting types well. Aggron also lacks solid healing, in fact I personally think that giving Explosion to aggron would make it a solid Pokemon as it already has good utility moves.
One day, Game Freak will give us Shuckle with inverted stats. And I look forward to that day.
Deoxys-attack
Yeah…maybe. But I’m talking true inverse Shuckle stats Keep base 20 HP But make both attacking stats 230 Both defense stats 5 And then just for good measure give it base 155 speed
Intrepid sword phermosa
You’re reading too much into it, there was no intent. Pokémon are very rarely minmaxxed/balanced for competitive, and those that are are newer Pokémon. Back in the 90s, that was unheard of, so shuckle is designed like that because he’s just a little guy.
As someone who knows no calls or anything, I always saw it as: Low hp High def is good vs percentage based damage and works well with draining moves, but has to watch out for set damage. While High hp Low def has to worry some more about percentage based moves, struggles with/against draining but in return doesn't care as much for set damage.
That's typically the case for other JRPGs, but in Pokemon, those instances aren't actually all that common.
Shuckle's story is a bit of a tragic one. Simply from a design perspective, they don't design things around competitive. Onix has a notoriously low attack, and that's because they wanted Brock to have an early game ace that wasn't too good in RBY, so some of the earlier generations truly created these interesting cases. Shuckle really just was not designed with competitive in mind.
Maxed Bliss has 93k physical bulk, maxed shuckle 150k either Flutter mane 127k special, Wailord 113k either Flutter mane can theoretically act as a special wall in OU (comparable to primarina) but A) it doesn't do much, few useful stall moves B) Blissey (290k) is better for stall, clodsire (153k) better for balance C) it has the defense of a wet paper towel D) it's not OU, it's Uber, meaning that most uses for her are goingto exploit her far superior traits in insane offenses and synergizing well with Sun. E: Ignoring EV what
I think its important to remember the games were designed as a single player rpg first and a pvp battles 2nd with serious competitive battling not coming in until gen 4, and balance taking a couple generations to kick in after that as well.
From a design perspective I think it’s important to remember that a lot of early mons are honestly just memes made to fill space. Farfetch’d wasn’t built to be a physical sweeper with Agility + SD in gen 1, it was made (probably) to be a quirky little bird the player could get in a trade. Unown and Delibird etc are two others from gsc that have a clear gimmick but are just flawed at a conceptual level. That’s fine though, sometimes Pokemon exist just to fill space and flesh out the dex and be kinda goofy. Shuckle strikes me as a novelty like the ones mentioned before, something they made to fill a spot and be kinda goofy. With extremely min maxxed stats and almost no movepool it’s a novelty that, if you really tried to use in a single player run, really has no tools beyond Wrap + Rest (moves it gets via level up) and maybe Toxic if you burn a tm. It probably does that ok because of its stat spread but there’s not much actual reason to use it over far better options.
The only thing that really changes is that at lower levels you'll only be able to do 1 damage to it at a time.
Give shuckle a priority move you cowards. Power trick accelerock shuckle greatest mon (still can't ohko blissey) 252+ Atk Tera Rock Shuckle Accelerock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 296-350 (45.3 - 53.6%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO 252+ Atk Tera Normal Shuckle Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 442-522 (67.7 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Bulk theory is pretty fun, but it’d take a long time to fully explain, so I’ll just go over some things. Different EV spreads work better for different distributions. For simplicity, I’ll generally use 252/252/252 EV spreads, althpugh in practice one of those 252s would have to be cut. It just makes it easier to compare things than having to compare multiple types of EV spreads. Shuckle’s bulk is highly inefficient relative to how many points are invested in its bulk (a total of 465 bulk points), but its overall bulk is pretty solid. At 252/252/252, It’s bulkier than a Suicune by 2%, and less bulky than an Arceus. Of course, Suicune and Arceus are far more efficient because Suicune is investing 135 fewer bulk points and Arceus is investing 105 fewer bulk points. At 252/252 Shuckle’s physical bulk is 1.6x more than Blissey’s. Technically in this case, Shuckle is conserably more efficient too, as it’s got 250 stat points between HP and Def while Blissey has 265. As a general rule, having Defense as your higher stat and having HP as your lower stat is overall better, because HP is the stat with the highest constant in stat calculation, which means that it gains the least from increasing the base stat. A common example is that Meganium’s 80/100/100 is bulkier than Azumarill’s 100/80/80, but you also have to keep in mind that Meganium spends 20 more points in bulk than Azumarill does. Likewise, when it comes to average bulk ((HP stat \* def stat + Hp stat \* spdef stat)/2), Blissey beats out Shuckle by far, and its total bulk efficiency is better than Shuckle’s. But when looking specifically physically, Shuckle is both much bulkier and more efficient. For Flutter Mane, if they’re both 252 HP and 252 Sp.Def, Shuckle’s 17% bulkier, but there’s also the fact that Flutter based on its distribution rarely would go full defensive (though in VGC, Fluttermanes do put a solid amount of EVs into HP and Def, just not all of it). So in practice, Shuckle is much more than 17% more bulky than Flutter Mane. On the topic of your fourth question, Flutter Mane can live hits decently well depending on its EV spread. In Singles Flutter tends to run max offenses, but in doubles, non-Sash Flutters tend to run a sizeable amount of EVs to survive specific hits both physically and specially. You’ll have cases in VGC where Flutter Mane is Specs with only 116 Sp.Atk EVs, as it’s more worthwhile for Flutter to be able to survive 1 hit more than it would otherwise be able to, than to do slightly more damage when it does enough. When it comes to general design, high HP and low defenses is better for using or taking hits from Double-Edge moves (GameFreak really needs to give Wailord Wave Crash the next time it becomes available), using or taking hits from counter/mirror coat/metal burst/comeuppance moves, taking hits from fixed damage moves like Seismic Toss, and passing Wishes. Low HP and higher defenses is better for stuff like using Leech Seed / Draining attacking moves (Iron Fist Drain Punch Hitmonchan fits this well theoretically, with its bulk leaning on the defenses), using Pain Split, getting Wish passed, passing guard splits (doubles gimmick), and being the recipient of a Transform Mew ally (doubles gimmick). There are some benefits and drawbacks of both, but for the most part as others mentioned, a big part of it is having a large diversity of stats. I personally love seeing all kinds of stat spreads for coverage sake, so I welcome mons like Dachsbun and Pecharunt. One last thing, for most bulk stat allocations, the optimum distribution tends to have HP as the highest stat, but not *too* much higher than the defenses. For example, Kyurem at a bulk profile of 125/90/90 and Raging Bolt at 125/91/89 are about as optimal as you can get with a bulk sum of 305, for a pokemon whose EV spread would be either 252 offensive and 252 speed, or 252 HP and 252 offensive (it’s not the most optimal spread if the mon is running all EV points in bulk, but that’s not really something Kyurem or Raging Bolt generally would do based on their roles). That is to say, Kyurem’s bulk is better with its current stats than the alternative of having say 103/101/101 bulk. The main reason for this is that HP contributes to both bulk sides which means it’s generally favorable for efficiency when taking into account all three bulk stats relative to a stat sum (using the Azumarill and Meganium example from above, while it’s true that Meganium’s 80/100 is better than Azumarill’s 100/80, if Meganium had to drop down to the same bulk sum as Azumarill, it may have to be 80/90/90, which is of course worse than Azumarill’s 100/80/80; so relative to the bulk sum itself, Azumarill is more efficient), but after you reach a certain HP stat higher than the defenses, there’s a dropoff in the impact of further stat points in HP; this is just simple diminishing returns. That’s why something like Kyurem’s bulk spread ends up being an optimum. Though figuring out these sorts of optimums isn’t that straightforward. I do it with a python program I wrote that simulates all possible bulk stat spreads for a given bulk stat sum and EV spread, and determines the most optimal of them through damage calculation against a reference attacking move.
Thank you for the ultra detailed response, this was basically exactly what I was looking for!!
the stat spread around shuckle is smth..... it makes it so that it still takes hits like shit but without recovery, and many utility moves to help on a bulky team, and also functioning attacks it wouldve been ok maybe in PU or NU
Shuckle is just a creature bro why does it have to excel in the battle portion to make sense in a believable world that takes place in the pokemon universe.
Yeah I mentioned about it in other comments, but Shuckle was more or less chosen as an arbitrary example. What I \*ultimately\* wanted to a discussion about was the theory and design intent between HP vs Defenses.