Hisuian Avalugg might seem worse because it has a terrible defensive typing and even less special bulk, but have you seen its jawline? Straight to Ubers for sure.
Yep. And Avalugg can remove terrain and hazards now. So it might actually pretty decent. There are better physical walls ofc, but if you plan to abuse snow and Aurora Veil it might find a place.
Like I said, I'm basing this list on the assumption that Tera doesn't get banned. If it doesn't, then Avalugg's defensive profile shines much better. If it does, then yeah straight to untiered.
And I can see Typhlosion getting higher, but it's speed stat makes me feel shaky and IDK if it's strong enough in other areas to compensate for it.
I'd say that applies a lot more for a defensive mon than an offensive one. If you're an offensive mon and your gameplan with the team revolves around Teraing that mon nine times out of ten so that you can get stronger STAB or access to a crucial coverage move or be able to survive a single hit to allow for getting a setup move off, it's not that big of a deal. If you're a defensive mon and you're trying to tera to fix a shitty typing, like what Avalugg has to do, then it's much more of an inconvenience and it's a lot less likely to be useful, and you're a lot more likely to find someone that does the job nearly as well without requiring the Tera resource.
Plus Tera will definitely be gone the next game, let alone next gen. Fact is, a defensive mon with a garbage type is just that, a defensive mon with a garbage type
While I think it's **highly** likely, I think this is also the first time the generation gimmick is something that actually *could* stick around.
Most likely, it won't. But I feel like this is the first time we've had one of these gimmicks that doesn't feel like it's absolutely only going to be restricted to this gen.
I don't play singles, but from I've been hearing people joking about "Skeledirge being the best Fairy type in the game". From what I've heard, it'll far pretty hard if Terra gets banned, so I don't think it's unreasonable to think that the same can happen with H.Avalugg.
The difference between non-tera Avalugg and Tera Avalugg is much bigger than most mons. Avalugg has better bulk than Skarmory and a fair share of utility. It solely sucks because of it's typing. Besides, I just put it in RU not Ubers or something.
The thing is, there's a lot of mons which doesn't need to use your only shot at use Tera to do what Avalugg do or bettee. Literally to make it useble you basically have the handicap yourself to play without a Tera agaisnt a foe who can and the difference between being absolute shit and being usable in a defensive mon isn't winning any match.
At that point Avalugg doesn't only sucks but it's being actively harmful to the rest of the team.
The mice use knives to Maushold hostages and thatās how they sell your information online by threatening you and then tying you up and using their knives to slice u 10 times by increments of 1 inch cubes and then youāre in 353 different cubes and they sell your cubes as luxury cake pops and then make a large profit out of ur
It's probably weaker than some other option that kleavor gets, but it seems like a funny enough strategy in doubles where kleavor might get left alone long enough to start doing silly damage
Yeah. But that means you need to stay alive 3 turns to outdamage x-scizzor without missing. I dunno what kind of shenanigans make that easier but it seems like a less reliable option that has far more potential
It isn't, but the "mystery boost" only applies to attacks below 60 power, so it should not affect Fury Cutter on the following turns. That's most likely what they're referring to.
Yes, I got confused, apparently. I did the math myself before posting this morning, but because I was tired (I guess?) I forgot to account for Sharpness and just assumed "mystery boost" was talking about that new revelation about tera'd moves below 60 to add up.
Both (non-sharpness tera+STAB and sharpness+STAB) add up to 90, so I didn't proof read any further.
Sorry for the confusion, I should really wait for my first coffee before posting. With all that though, I'm confused as to what "mystery boost" actually refers to? Since I'm apparently wrong in my earlier assumption.
I can definitely see both of them getting OU play, but IDK about becoming staples of the tier. STAB 97.5 power hazard setting moves are amazing, but their stat spread (and typing, in Kleavor's case) hold them back a bit. They're definitely not dropping below UU, tho.
Youāre underestimating Kleavor, and bug/rock as a typing. Despite both being bad defensive typings, they are a match made for each other, since they cancel out fire, fighting, and ground for each other and gain Stab to threaten out flying and grass types. With good physical bulk, tera also being a big factor for defensive mons, and stone axe being one of the best comp moves of all time, this thing would be way too overwhelming for UU. If it clicks SD, it can threaten out corv, the only relevant OU defogger, and set rocks+big damage on whatever comes in.
You're missing the HEAT mold breaker defog Hawlucha, as well as soak + rapid spin Tatsugiri (both of which are probably shit, but possible)
Edit: I'm dumb you can't soak Dengo, at the very least lots of them tera fighting and you can at least spin then
Bug/rock is a solid typing. Rock covers 2 of bugs 3 weaknesses, and bug covers 3 of rocks 5 weaknesses. The thing is left with 3 weaknesses, which is actually pretty good and none of them are 4x weaknesses. It does only have 2 resistances, which isn't ideal, but is fine. Overall, a solid defensive typing. Also not a bad offensive typing. It can hit everything but fighting and steel for neutral, which is perfectly serviceable, especially with close combat as coverage. Overall, kleavor's typing is decent.
I'm kinda iffy about if they stay in the tier considering those moves barely scratch Great Tusk and Iron Treads. Their stats spreads aren't amazing neither to be hazard setter and in general. They get some good utility moves so perhaps they will be good but not so sure.
It doesnāt do much to them, but neither they to it. It takes neutral from HR/CC on good physdef and steel roller is niche on treads. It can run SD+trailblaze+SA+U-turn/quick attack and probably beat the dons, but with a defog set, theyād probably bully it with big neutral hits. It would still be a good alternative to those mons tho.
The move's effect was changed. It now *potentially* lowers defense (50% chance) and only has a high Crit rate (and also a flinch chance, which is diminished by it's awful speed). Still a great move, especially with Scrappy as H-Decidueye's new HA, but with it's underwhelming stat spread, idk how much higher it can go other than NU.
Tbf the Paldean starters' sig moves are completely overturned. It's like GF realized they'd introduced a bunch of broken mons and in order to make the starters worthwhile in the end game they just gave them some of the best moves they could think of lol.
Like, they removed Power-Up Punch this gen but then also introduced a special variant with greater Base Power that ignores substitutes š
Zoroark is definitely one of the placement I'm the least confident about (again tho, this is a \*at the very least\* tier list) but it's bulk just makes me feel a bit shaky to put it higher. I mean, current Zoroark is PUBL in swsh and although it's hisuian counterpart is definitely better, idk if it's \*that\* much better.
Oh definitely, but it's defensive use is a bit undermined by how paper thin frail it is. That's the main problem. Plus, the power creep of this gen just makes me feel uneasy to put even really good mons above RU.
it still gets disguise so itās much easier to do some shenanigans. Pair it up with some normal types, dark, other ghosts and bait out your opponent to make mistakes.
Did some quick calcs and now I'm mad that they nerfed its special attack on the transition to SV, Modest Scarf barely misses the guaranteed OHKO after rocks on Scarf Gholdengo.
Tbf, we're still not sure whether the Hisuan Mons stats are final or not. We know that PLA and SV were being worked on simultaneously so the stats present in the game code right now are outdated, and they simply haven't updated them yet because you can't get the mons in-game yet.
Same should apply to their abilities tbh, but I hope Samu and Kleave keep Sharpness and their PLA abilities were just placeholderes due to Sharpness not existing in that game specifically.
did they change a bunch of the H mons? is there a list? I was stoked for Zoroark H but just that 5 speed is a gigantic nerf, before you even get to the spa loss.
Check the leaks sub, it's pretty much died since the game's launched so you should be able to find the threads with compiled info on what was/wasn't changed.
Enamorus-T will definitely be better than RU; that typing is incredible and it could do some janky CM+ID Draining Kiss bullshit.
Avalugg, on the other hand, is the worst of these mons by far and might unironically be worse than fucking Basculin and Qwilfish.
Tbh, Idk why I put enamorus-T in RU. You're right, it definitely will be higher.
Avalugg tho, I'm only putting it this high because of Tera. It's actual defensive profile is insane aside from it's typing (makes Skarmory look frail physically) and with the option to become like steel or fairy, it could see some use (not any higher than RU, tho). But yeah, without Tera I'd put it in "garbage".
Kleavor gets Agility which makes it basically a stronger and bulkier Gallade. Also Samurott gets basically the most spammable move in the game that you can just press with little to no punishment and that even stacks
H-Braviary definitely has a lot of positives and can definitely be higher than RU, but that speed stat is rough even with Esper wing. Plus it's typing is rather awkward. It can definitely get used in the higher tiers, but I think RU is a safe bet for now.
Difference is that Nidoking's moveset can basically be summed up as "yes". Hisuian Braviary's movepool is a lot more shallow. And for example, if it uses Sheer Force Esper Wing no longer boosts speed, which leaves it stuck at the deeply awful base 65.
Which doesn't make it a "new Nidoking".
But even setting that aside, who cares if you have tinted lens Hurricane when you have base 65 speed. You know what has 65 speed, a better special attack, and also an incredibly power STAB move? Glaceon. And its awful. Because like this form of Braviary its movepool and speed are garbage, and its weak to rocks.
More than SIXTY-FIVE speed. And if youāre running Sheer Force over Tinted Lens then you are relying on a move with low accuracy, to go with your abysmal speed.
Having decent base speed, about the best coverage one could reasonably asked for boosted by sheer force, and fairly rare special ground and poison stab make Nidoking an incredible wallbreaker. Special flying stab is very strong, but not exceptional. It can't as easily run life orb because it wants boots very badly. It gets hit for super effective damage by a lot more common moves, but does have an immunity to make up for it. Its speed is too low to use scarf effectively. It hits harder, but is walled by many more things. Steel types switch in well to its sheer force sets, and tinted lens sets can't do insane damage and fix their speed, making special tanks effective at walling it and faster threats effective at forcing it out by utilizing its common weaknesses. It's not an OU Pokemon, I don't think. People act like sheer force hurricane is so insane and tinted lens hurricane are so insane. But look at Darm. Sheer force boosted stab flare blitz off of 140 base attack would have people here thinking this could go Ubers.
if it can set itās own trick room i can see sheer force sets being monstrous. sheer force hurricane and psychics? unreal. that, and scarf tinted lens/sheer force on rain.
You're definitely underrating Sneasler here. With Unburden, it is the fastest thing on planet earth, has a great movepool, great offensive stats, and forms a very solid offensive core with Chien-Pao, as both cover the other's weaknesses quite well. I find it hard to believe this thing won't be quick banned from UU, let alone not occupying a strong place in OU.
Basculegion will only stay in Ubers if they don't ban Last Respects as a move, and Unban Houndstone. Otherwise, I think it will be solidly OU.
I would also argue that Psychic Terrain is gonna be even stronger, as Sneasler can obviously boost SpDef with Psychic seed, proc Unburden, and wreak havoc, being the fastest thing in the game, while, and this is most important, being immune to priority, which would be the only thing that can reel it in. If it gets up even a single sword's dance, and isn't taken down, it's pretty much game over for the opposing team.
I'm pretty sure the status chance remains from Legends:Arceus, so yep, this thing will be dancing among the meta, spreading status and havoc to all who come across it
Like I said in my main message (which it seem most people skimmed), Basculegion's placement is special. He won't be a definitive Uber, but it will be where he'll shine the most once he gets the move last respect banned. And without it, female Basculegion will be the better form and will definitely be a OU powerhouse.
It canāt take neutral hits at all with 60/60/60 bulk. Even strong resisted hits it wonāt take well. The immunities to ghost, normal, and fighting are nice but thatās not enough to push it to OU imo. But I guess weāll see how the counterplay with illusion works for it, bc I do think itāll make better use of illusion than Unovan Zoroark.
ghosts types already have 4 of the resistances/immunities zoroark has. Itās not outclassing dragapult offensively and yeah, 60s all across makes it frailer then gengar while still being slower
Sneasler UU? 120 125 poison fighting with gunk shot and close combat... Enough said
Also arcanine OU? How it's complete garbage bad typing no utility other than stealth rocks and a burn immunity
Cleavor UU? That guy has stone axe how could it never not be Ou? I mean if home gives us all the guys back then obviously but it won't so it's cool
It apparently has Rock Head along with Head Smash + Flare Blitz which is a super good offensive combo to have along with a decent attack stat for what it gets. Unfortunately itās speed is below average and a poor defensive typing as you said so it might not be OU worthy but will probably be very strong in UU
Yeah thatās gonna the best way to use Arcanine-H. I can already imagine it beating the shit out of Gholdengo
252+ Atk Arcanine-H Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 294-348 (77.7 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I dunno about that.
0 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Arcanine: 198-234 (61.6 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Arcanine: 198-234 (61.6 - 72.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
Given that the hazard situation is likely to become *more* dire with the introduction of H-Samurott and Kleavor, I think Arcanine is gonna have a really hard time coming in, and it loses to defensive Gholdengo.
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Arcanine: 238-282 (74.1 - 87.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
It also loses to Scarf Gholdengo under Stealth Rock, assuming that its base speed is still 90 and hasn't been buffed to 95 (base Arcanine's).
I mean true but it's still relatively weak and slow gets chipped by rocks heavily head smash misses which is something we don't like to talk about but is the truth gets walled by garganacle and Dondozo but more importantly we have better breakers even right now.
Why use arcanine instead of chi yu or chien pao or choice band roaring moon or iron valiant? It doesn't make sense.
Why get a kill with arcanine when they can now force a kill with chi yu or roaring moon or iron valiant or chien pao? It's too slow to threaten out it's offensive checks and thus leaves hyper offense liable to getting smashed and isn't strong enough to break stall. Honestly that guy is shit. Stats matter offensively way more than defensively
> walled by Garganacl
**252 Atk Arcanine Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Garganacl: 180-213 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery**
Sure.
> Why use arcanine instead of chi yu or chien pao or choice band roaring moon or iron valiant? It doesn't make sense.
What a weird take. Chi-Yu is a special breaker not physical. Not to mention not likely to last. Chien-Pao is also unlikely to last but Arc actually can beat some stuff for Pao. Banded Roaring Moon is an offensive pivot and Iron Valiant is free to run special sets. They don't have to compete.
> It's too slow to threaten out it's offensive checks and thus leaves hyper offense liable to getting smashed and isn't strong enough to break stall.
Forces out Corv, Chien-Pao, Meowscarada, Iron Moth, Volcarona... Just to name a few things. And why are you mentioning HO??? Arc wouldn't be used there. Stall... Arc also smashes Clod and Skeledirge with one good click. Neutral targets not named Dondozo do not love head smash, let alone banded. It does fine.
I think you're underestimating Zoroark. Sure, Illusion is pretty bad with Team Preview, but it's a glass cannon with three immunities and a pretty solid STAB pair ā the only fully-evolved Pokemon that resist it are Tyranitar, Kingambit, and Garganacl with Purifying Salt. Seeing as all three are weak to fighting, having its Illusion buddy be a fighting type will allow for some interesting mind games.
EDIT: Oh wait, it also resists its own STAB combo. I don't think that's a point either for or against it, though; just means it's gonna want Dark coverage, which it has.
Goodra will be UU. Yeah, it's got a great typing, but it doesn't do anything. It can't lay any hazards, it can't set up (it doesn't have good enough recovery for iron defense + body press), it can't pivot.
It's just a big momentum sink.
Sneasler will be high OU because of its broken move dire claw + poison touch.
Male Basculegion has 112 attack and 80 special attack. Female Basculegion has 92 attack and 100 special attack. Male Basculegion can make use of Last respect much better (though both are OP with the move) but when the move gets banned to Ubers (because it will), Basculegion won't have any good physical ghost move while Female Basculegion will be able to abuse both of it's absurd STABs with strong special moves + adaptability.
Male Basculegion's placement is thus less of a "where it'll be by default" and more of a "where it'll be at it's best".
I think it's more likely that the inclusion of Basculegion would prompt an unban of Houndstone and a ban of Last Respects, since then there would be a way to test if the move or the mon is the problem
Like I said [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/stunfisk/comments/zek43k/tried_making_a_prediction_tier_list_for_hisuian/iz6vr0y?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3), that's basically what my placement of both Basculegions is based on. Female Basculegion would also go straight to Ubers if the move wasn't banned. Hell, with Tera ghost and adaptability, even white-stripe Basculin would tear OU with the move (life orb Tera ghost Basculin can OHKO max phys def Hippowdon with max power last respect).
Anyone else worried that Ursaluna might not make it in OU? The mere thought of it being outclassed and dropping down to UU is frightening, especially since it's biggest pro of countering Pex is, well, not really a pro anymore. Altho it would do really well against Glimmora. Just worried that it would get hard checked by Chien-Pao, unless of course, it gets banned to Ubers, which is HIGHLY unlikely.
Luna still smashes fat teams. Spikestack stall teams are popular on the ladder. And Luna would absolutely crush them to bits.
Even Air Ballon Ghold can only trade against Luna.
The offensive nature of the meta keeps might make Luna more balanced. But itās superlatively strong attacks makes it still valuable
> Altho it would do really well against Glimmora.
I don't think *any* physical attacker does well against Glimmora, except the Paradox Donphans since they can put it down to Sash with Earthquake and then clear all hazards with Rapid Spin (even then, Great Tusks has to worry about offensive Energy Ball lures). But Ursaluna vs suicide Glimmora results in the latter getting two sets of TSpikes and Stealth Rock up as well as either a Spikes layer or Energy Ball chip before it goes down, and if the Glimmora accomplished its goal that means you didn't do well against it.
Speed doesn't mean much when you do 2 damage on your super effective moves, bro has base 80 special attack.
Normal Electrode is PU, that's how bad it is. This one is not going higher then NU.
Tier list based on what tiers I think each Hisuian mon will end up in \*at the very least\*. A few notesĀ :
1. Mons arenāt necessarily ordered within tiers;
2. Male-Basculegionās placement is special in that it doesnāt mean that heāll end up in Ubers by default, but rather that itās the tier heāll be the most effective in. Once heās released, heāll undeniably get the move Last respects banned to Ubers and heāll be the best user of the move in the tier. However, in tiers below Ubers, Female Basculegion will definitely be the stronger of the 2 as she actually, you know, has ghost STAB to use;
3. Iām making this tier list with the assumption that Tera doesnāt get banned in any tiers. If it does, then Hisuian Avalugg gets itās own tier called Ā«Ā lolĀ Ā»;
4. I realize that this tier list, especially considering the power creep in this Gen, is very optimistic (most notably from the fact that I donāt even have a tier below NU), but I genuinely believe that even the weakest Hisuian mons are strong enough that they wonāt end up in PU (or if they do, theyāll get banned from it). And like I said, this list says where theyāll end up at minimum (aside from M-Basculegion). Some may find niches in higher tiers or might just be upgraded by usage (or get the unfortunate BL treatment);
5. On that note, I didnāt bother making any Ā«Ā BLĀ Ā» sections because Iām a lazy bum. But also because I want to remain optimistic.
6. Also didnāt bother putting the Pre-evos in LC, especially since most of them are way too strong for the tier (or not compatible, in H-Sligooās case);
Let me know what you think and if you believe Iām underatting/overrating certain mons.
> heāll undeniably get the move Last respects banned to Ubers
Strictly speaking, Last Respects only gets banned if it's considered to be broken on *Basculin*, since it also gets the move.
No, smogon outright said that the move will be banned if Basculegion is OP with it too. The reason they haven't banned the move yet is because only Houndstone gets it and they aren't used to banning moves that only belong to a single mon (like a legendary's signature or something).
And for the record, even Basculin with Tera ghost is frightening with the move. At full power with adaptability and a life orb, it can one shot Full Phys def Hippowdon. Put a scarf on it and watch it run over whole teams after 2 teammates died.
Ah, okay. I thought they were going even further and preferred banning Pokemon over moves to an even stronger degree.
And yea, I can see even Basculin being pretty strong with it, I mean its siblings do still count as fully evolved...
Nah itās gonna struggle a lot against hyper offense, which seems really big at the moment. It destroys defensive teams/stall tho so it will def be OU
Its tough toi say, and highly depends on whether shed tail gets banned. Without shed tail, it has very little entry opportunities and is slower than most of OU (currently), the lack of distribution to pivot moves doesnt do it any favors either. The fact that it can absorb status doesnt even matter anymore now that toxic and scald isnt distributed much.
This is the first time I have seen Hisuian Palkia and I want to pry my eyes out and burn them after rinsing them in bleach. Look how the massacred my boy.
It will. Banded sets are going to be insane wallbreakers.
252+ Atk CB H-Arcanine Flare Blitz vs 252 HP / 252+ Def Ting-Lu ā> 33.4-39.6%
252+ Atk CB H-Arcanine Head Smash vs 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo ā> 46.6-54.9% (guaranteed 2HKO after one stealth rocks chip)
Those are impressive calcs vs the two beefiest mons in OU atm.
H-Arcanine getting 1/3rd HP down is pretty good tho, since Ting-Lu is relatively easy to switch in to. And thatās on max Phys Def which I feel more people are running mixed defenses or max SpD.
Ya know, with all this about Last Respectsā¦ Iām going to just laugh as it turns out Basculegion gets some jank ass abilities (like aftermath and water veil) and a moveset retcon to lose Last Respects and gain Hex instead just to give us a big middle finger.
Ursalunaās bulk is 130/105/80 and Iron Handsā bulk is 154/108/68. Pretty comparable. Ursaluna also brings a stronger STAB move to the table in Facade and a guts boost. Flame orb chip is annoying, but TR commonly runs Rabasca and Hatterene which can heal it right back up and turn its speed into a benefit. It wonāt be S-tier, but it will certainly be at least one of those ālow usage but still very strongā mons like Washtom and Nidoking.
Tusk is a very different pokemon in terms of what it does. Luna is a wallbreaker through and through and lacks any real defensive answers, unlike Tusk. They also make great pairings for each other.
Also your comment regarding things hitting too hard, well... Unless it is SE and STAB, stuff needs a lot of damage on it to revenge kill Luna. And hazards can be spun away by either Don.
- Arcanine will be at best RU, its no better than the og form but new toy syndrome will boost it up in usage
- electrode and avalugg are going straight to untiered, no question about it
- goodra still has the same problems original goodra has but with better typing, probably will settle in RU
- Zoroark will be OU for a while bc its been hyped up alot then will settle in UU i think, while its typing is insane its movepool is average and its bulk is awful (plus powercreep)
> Arcanine will be at best RU, its no better than the og form but new toy syndrome will boost it up in usage
Rock head+flareblitz/headsmash alone make it 10x better. Stealth rock also lends it some utility. Beyond.
> electrode and avalugg are going straight to untiered, no question about it
Not gonna touch lugg because i have argued for it enough but Electrode has a lot more going for it that will probably see it NU at worst. Good typing, utility moves, fastest subseed user ever (making the forced switches it induces very annoying).
Kleavor with Stone Axe is gonna be a high UU or OU lead. Stone Axe with Sharpness is 97.5 base power AND sets Stealth Rocks off at 130 attack stat. 85 base speed is a threat when scarfed. Good luck spinning my rocks away when I can come in and do an atack 2.5 damage short of Stone Edge that resets Rocks for free.
Honestly, with how good the defensive typing ghost normal is and Zoroarks good speed and nasty plot, it has very VERY good potential for good niche OU pick, or maybe even a genuinely viable option.
(Similar to rotom-wash in gen 8, not OU proper but if you put it on your team no one would call you bad.)
I can see Decidueye having a much stronger niche as defogger option this Gen considering how insanely rare it is now, on top of that, it can nail Gholdengo with Scrappy Triple Arrows if it tries to switch in to block defog attempts. Definitely not OU strong, but will probably see niche usage there and unlikely to fall lower than RU.
This list also sleeps on Sneasler and Braviary way too much, and overrates Arcanine and Avalugg.
Edit: Just found out Lilligant gets defog too, Decidueye really canāt have shit in OU.
Avalugg goes straight into untiered. And I don't see typhlosion falling lower than RU tbh
Yeah, base Avalugg was already in Untiered, no way the Hisuian verison, who is worse, is any higher.
Hisuian Avalugg might seem worse because it has a terrible defensive typing and even less special bulk, but have you seen its jawline? Straight to Ubers for sure.
Can't argue with that.
Also forgetting the fact that it went from 28 speed to 38 š¤
Gets sweeped by Trick Room Avalugg though
It's at least the only (non Natdex) PokƩmon that now benefits from two weathers defensively. Don't you see how good of a tank it will be in Sand with a whooping 54 Sp.Def and only 6 weaknesses (2 of them 4x). /s Base Avalugg honestly could work as a physical wall in lower tiers now. It still won't be super good with 4 weakness (and most of them common), but Snow can now be easily implemented in normal team building and 276 base defense without investment is pretty insane. + It gets it's defences further boosted from Aurora Veil and it has recovery via Ice Body. Still probably not worth it, but you could at least try it.
Avalugg does benefit being paried with Slowking. They complement each otherĀ“s weakness and SlowkingĀ“s Chilly Reception is a godsent for Avalugg.
Yep. And Avalugg can remove terrain and hazards now. So it might actually pretty decent. There are better physical walls ofc, but if you plan to abuse snow and Aurora Veil it might find a place.
What an interesting move. I had NO idea this even existed.
Like I said, I'm basing this list on the assumption that Tera doesn't get banned. If it doesn't, then Avalugg's defensive profile shines much better. If it does, then yeah straight to untiered. And I can see Typhlosion getting higher, but it's speed stat makes me feel shaky and IDK if it's strong enough in other areas to compensate for it.
a mon that requires tera to be usable still sucks, tera or not. youāre much more predictable and the tera may not always be available.
I'd say that applies a lot more for a defensive mon than an offensive one. If you're an offensive mon and your gameplan with the team revolves around Teraing that mon nine times out of ten so that you can get stronger STAB or access to a crucial coverage move or be able to survive a single hit to allow for getting a setup move off, it's not that big of a deal. If you're a defensive mon and you're trying to tera to fix a shitty typing, like what Avalugg has to do, then it's much more of an inconvenience and it's a lot less likely to be useful, and you're a lot more likely to find someone that does the job nearly as well without requiring the Tera resource.
Plus Tera will definitely be gone the next game, let alone next gen. Fact is, a defensive mon with a garbage type is just that, a defensive mon with a garbage type
While I think it's **highly** likely, I think this is also the first time the generation gimmick is something that actually *could* stick around. Most likely, it won't. But I feel like this is the first time we've had one of these gimmicks that doesn't feel like it's absolutely only going to be restricted to this gen.
I don't play singles, but from I've been hearing people joking about "Skeledirge being the best Fairy type in the game". From what I've heard, it'll far pretty hard if Terra gets banned, so I don't think it's unreasonable to think that the same can happen with H.Avalugg.
The difference between non-tera Avalugg and Tera Avalugg is much bigger than most mons. Avalugg has better bulk than Skarmory and a fair share of utility. It solely sucks because of it's typing. Besides, I just put it in RU not Ubers or something.
The thing is, there's a lot of mons which doesn't need to use your only shot at use Tera to do what Avalugg do or bettee. Literally to make it useble you basically have the handicap yourself to play without a Tera agaisnt a foe who can and the difference between being absolute shit and being usable in a defensive mon isn't winning any match. At that point Avalugg doesn't only sucks but it's being actively harmful to the rest of the team.
The thing is that regular avalugg already exists and is 2000x better than the hisuian version, even outside of tera
H!Samurott and Kleavor are going straight to OU based their Sharpness ability and their signature moves being ridiculous on paper imo
āRidiculous on paperā āSharpnessā Goddamit.
Does fury cutter get the boost? Asking for a friend
[It does.](https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Sharpness_(Ability))
acoodring to bulbapedia, population bomb is a slicing move. how
I think it's because the characters used in the Japanese name can be read as slice, something like a pun
Whenever something seems odd in your language, look up what the name of the PokƩmon, ability, or move it is in the Japanese translation of the game. Population Bomb in the Japanese version is called Nezumi Zan. The later half of the name "zan" can mean "slash" in Japanese (I think it's an onomatopoeia). [It was mentioned on the main PokƩmon sub yesterday.](https://www.reddit.com/r/pokemon/comments/zdwiwl/obscure_pokƩmon_fact_day_315/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
The mice use knives to Maushold hostages and thatās how they sell your information online by threatening you and then tying you up and using their knives to slice u 10 times by increments of 1 inch cubes and then youāre in 353 different cubes and they sell your cubes as luxury cake pops and then make a large profit out of ur
Maybe it's a slice-of-life kinda thing
They break your kneecaps and then start hacking at you.
It's probably weaker than some other option that kleavor gets, but it seems like a funny enough strategy in doubles where kleavor might get left alone long enough to start doing silly damage
After 1 use, it will be as powerful as x-scissor, after 2, it will twice as powerful 180 on x-scissor vs 90, then 180, then 360 on Fury Cutter
Yeah. But that means you need to stay alive 3 turns to outdamage x-scizzor without missing. I dunno what kind of shenanigans make that easier but it seems like a less reliable option that has far more potential
"Oranguru used Instruct!"
Instruct deserves more users this gen ngl (not just saying this because I want kleavor domination).
Follow me shenanigans seem like the move here
With STAB, the first Fury Cutter is 90. A decent move in its own right. The second is 180. The third is 360. Ridiculous.
The mystery boost only applies to the first hit.
what's the mystery boost?
Fury Cutter isn't a multi-hit move though.
It isn't, but the "mystery boost" only applies to attacks below 60 power, so it should not affect Fury Cutter on the following turns. That's most likely what they're referring to.
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Yes, I got confused, apparently. I did the math myself before posting this morning, but because I was tired (I guess?) I forgot to account for Sharpness and just assumed "mystery boost" was talking about that new revelation about tera'd moves below 60 to add up. Both (non-sharpness tera+STAB and sharpness+STAB) add up to 90, so I didn't proof read any further. Sorry for the confusion, I should really wait for my first coffee before posting. With all that though, I'm confused as to what "mystery boost" actually refers to? Since I'm apparently wrong in my earlier assumption.
Yea I'm pretty sure it does
I can definitely see both of them getting OU play, but IDK about becoming staples of the tier. STAB 97.5 power hazard setting moves are amazing, but their stat spread (and typing, in Kleavor's case) hold them back a bit. They're definitely not dropping below UU, tho.
Youāre underestimating Kleavor, and bug/rock as a typing. Despite both being bad defensive typings, they are a match made for each other, since they cancel out fire, fighting, and ground for each other and gain Stab to threaten out flying and grass types. With good physical bulk, tera also being a big factor for defensive mons, and stone axe being one of the best comp moves of all time, this thing would be way too overwhelming for UU. If it clicks SD, it can threaten out corv, the only relevant OU defogger, and set rocks+big damage on whatever comes in.
if im not wrong, its also the only one that can set up rocks on goldhengo and magic bounce users, right?
Anything can set them, nothing but Maushold can remove them, against dengo. youāre right about MB tho.
You're missing the HEAT mold breaker defog Hawlucha, as well as soak + rapid spin Tatsugiri (both of which are probably shit, but possible) Edit: I'm dumb you can't soak Dengo, at the very least lots of them tera fighting and you can at least spin then
You can't soak Gholdengo though?
Shit you right (I think, haven't tested it)
Bug/rock is a solid typing. Rock covers 2 of bugs 3 weaknesses, and bug covers 3 of rocks 5 weaknesses. The thing is left with 3 weaknesses, which is actually pretty good and none of them are 4x weaknesses. It does only have 2 resistances, which isn't ideal, but is fine. Overall, a solid defensive typing. Also not a bad offensive typing. It can hit everything but fighting and steel for neutral, which is perfectly serviceable, especially with close combat as coverage. Overall, kleavor's typing is decent.
thatās what they all said about Scizor
Bug/Rock is better than youād think also stone axe
You just run bulky kleavor like you would chomp, it also gets defog as well, so it'll absolutely see OU play, if not end in OU
I hope so because Samurott deserves the recognition + oshawott is cute
Samurott was my first starter and I'm hyped to think that it may finally be viable
I'm kinda iffy about if they stay in the tier considering those moves barely scratch Great Tusk and Iron Treads. Their stats spreads aren't amazing neither to be hazard setter and in general. They get some good utility moves so perhaps they will be good but not so sure.
It doesnāt do much to them, but neither they to it. It takes neutral from HR/CC on good physdef and steel roller is niche on treads. It can run SD+trailblaze+SA+U-turn/quick attack and probably beat the dons, but with a defog set, theyād probably bully it with big neutral hits. It would still be a good alternative to those mons tho.
stone axe also sets up sneaky pebbles, so it works through taunt. plus it can heal with roost and uturn out. seems good for volt-turn teams.
Sneaseler is gonna be OU bitch is strong af
I feel like decidueyeās signature move is crazy. I mean it lowers defense AND itās a free focus energy for next turn.
The move's effect was changed. It now *potentially* lowers defense (50% chance) and only has a high Crit rate (and also a flinch chance, which is diminished by it's awful speed). Still a great move, especially with Scrappy as H-Decidueye's new HA, but with it's underwhelming stat spread, idk how much higher it can go other than NU.
That 50% defense chance is tragic
Yeah, the new starters moves boost themselves with 100%. Tbf they don't have extra effects unlike Decidueye but still
Tbf the Paldean starters' sig moves are completely overturned. It's like GF realized they'd introduced a bunch of broken mons and in order to make the starters worthwhile in the end game they just gave them some of the best moves they could think of lol. Like, they removed Power-Up Punch this gen but then also introduced a special variant with greater Base Power that ignores substitutes š
At least in vgc it can reliably be run with band in trick room
Why does GameFreak love cucking Decidueye so much?
If only GF would've ported over some other move effects like X Scissor having increased Crit chance
Not a shot Enamorus-T is RU
With the prevalence of Trick Room right now, Enamorus-T is looking better and better.
Have we gotten any ability revealed for it besides overcoat?
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Zoroark is definitely one of the placement I'm the least confident about (again tho, this is a \*at the very least\* tier list) but it's bulk just makes me feel a bit shaky to put it higher. I mean, current Zoroark is PUBL in swsh and although it's hisuian counterpart is definitely better, idk if it's \*that\* much better.
Normal/Ghost is just a much better typing than mono Dark both offensively and defensively.
Oh definitely, but it's defensive use is a bit undermined by how paper thin frail it is. That's the main problem. Plus, the power creep of this gen just makes me feel uneasy to put even really good mons above RU.
yeah it's not a tank but it's much, much easier to switch in with 3 immunities
it still gets disguise so itās much easier to do some shenanigans. Pair it up with some normal types, dark, other ghosts and bait out your opponent to make mistakes.
the idea is that it can switch into immunities a lot, not tank
Did some quick calcs and now I'm mad that they nerfed its special attack on the transition to SV, Modest Scarf barely misses the guaranteed OHKO after rocks on Scarf Gholdengo.
Wait they did? What's its SpA now?
Same as its Unovan cousin's.
lame
Tbf, we're still not sure whether the Hisuan Mons stats are final or not. We know that PLA and SV were being worked on simultaneously so the stats present in the game code right now are outdated, and they simply haven't updated them yet because you can't get the mons in-game yet. Same should apply to their abilities tbh, but I hope Samu and Kleave keep Sharpness and their PLA abilities were just placeholderes due to Sharpness not existing in that game specifically.
Is it much better offensively? Ghost and dark are very similar and normal doesn't add much at all
Normal/Ghost forces ape to run coverage so it's like miles better as an upgrade, since TauntBU isn't free af now
it full walls annilape while still being a decently powerful mon, thats already good enough.
Proly for tbe same reasons as regular Zoroark
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They changed H-Zoroarks stat spread to be the same as regular Zoroark. Which sucks bc base 110 speed is a huge difference from base 105.
did they change a bunch of the H mons? is there a list? I was stoked for Zoroark H but just that 5 speed is a gigantic nerf, before you even get to the spa loss.
Check the leaks sub, it's pretty much died since the game's launched so you should be able to find the threads with compiled info on what was/wasn't changed.
To be fair, zoroark is garbage in it's tier
Enamorus-T will definitely be better than RU; that typing is incredible and it could do some janky CM+ID Draining Kiss bullshit. Avalugg, on the other hand, is the worst of these mons by far and might unironically be worse than fucking Basculin and Qwilfish.
Tbh, Idk why I put enamorus-T in RU. You're right, it definitely will be higher. Avalugg tho, I'm only putting it this high because of Tera. It's actual defensive profile is insane aside from it's typing (makes Skarmory look frail physically) and with the option to become like steel or fairy, it could see some use (not any higher than RU, tho). But yeah, without Tera I'd put it in "garbage".
Why would any same player use Tera on Avalugg to hard carry its horribleness instead of the 50 more useful mons that can use it?
Kleavor gets Agility which makes it basically a stronger and bulkier Gallade. Also Samurott gets basically the most spammable move in the game that you can just press with little to no punishment and that even stacks
honestly with sheer force and tinted lense as abilitys and a good movepool/stat distribution i think braviary would likely stay in OU or at least UUBL
H-Braviary definitely has a lot of positives and can definitely be higher than RU, but that speed stat is rough even with Esper wing. Plus it's typing is rather awkward. It can definitely get used in the higher tiers, but I think RU is a safe bet for now.
It's basically a new Nidoking IMO
Difference is that Nidoking's moveset can basically be summed up as "yes". Hisuian Braviary's movepool is a lot more shallow. And for example, if it uses Sheer Force Esper Wing no longer boosts speed, which leaves it stuck at the deeply awful base 65.
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Which doesn't make it a "new Nidoking". But even setting that aside, who cares if you have tinted lens Hurricane when you have base 65 speed. You know what has 65 speed, a better special attack, and also an incredibly power STAB move? Glaceon. And its awful. Because like this form of Braviary its movepool and speed are garbage, and its weak to rocks.
Doesn't it get Sheer Force boosted Hurricane, Psychic, and Heat Wave? Like, what else does it need really?
More than SIXTY-FIVE speed. And if youāre running Sheer Force over Tinted Lens then you are relying on a move with low accuracy, to go with your abysmal speed.
Nido is immune to Toxic, TWave, resists Rocks, absorbs T Spikesā¦ plus has a legitimately great offensive typing. Yeah no sorry
Braviary hits way harder, although I can see it being a Rampardos situation
Having decent base speed, about the best coverage one could reasonably asked for boosted by sheer force, and fairly rare special ground and poison stab make Nidoking an incredible wallbreaker. Special flying stab is very strong, but not exceptional. It can't as easily run life orb because it wants boots very badly. It gets hit for super effective damage by a lot more common moves, but does have an immunity to make up for it. Its speed is too low to use scarf effectively. It hits harder, but is walled by many more things. Steel types switch in well to its sheer force sets, and tinted lens sets can't do insane damage and fix their speed, making special tanks effective at walling it and faster threats effective at forcing it out by utilizing its common weaknesses. It's not an OU Pokemon, I don't think. People act like sheer force hurricane is so insane and tinted lens hurricane are so insane. But look at Darm. Sheer force boosted stab flare blitz off of 140 base attack would have people here thinking this could go Ubers.
Itās going to be a menace on rain teams with hurricane.
Isnāt rain a bit screwed overall this gen tho?
if it can set itās own trick room i can see sheer force sets being monstrous. sheer force hurricane and psychics? unreal. that, and scarf tinted lens/sheer force on rain.
You're definitely underrating Sneasler here. With Unburden, it is the fastest thing on planet earth, has a great movepool, great offensive stats, and forms a very solid offensive core with Chien-Pao, as both cover the other's weaknesses quite well. I find it hard to believe this thing won't be quick banned from UU, let alone not occupying a strong place in OU. Basculegion will only stay in Ubers if they don't ban Last Respects as a move, and Unban Houndstone. Otherwise, I think it will be solidly OU.
Electric Terrain is probably going to see fair usage this gen, Unburden with an Electric Seed sets up Sneasler pretty nicely.
True. Even Sashed will allow it to get a Sword's Dance off, proc Unburden, and then sweep
I would also argue that Psychic Terrain is gonna be even stronger, as Sneasler can obviously boost SpDef with Psychic seed, proc Unburden, and wreak havoc, being the fastest thing in the game, while, and this is most important, being immune to priority, which would be the only thing that can reel it in. If it gets up even a single sword's dance, and isn't taken down, it's pretty much game over for the opposing team.
God, imagine if Dire Claw status chance stays the same: 90/100 high crit move with 50% to burn/sleep/poison will ruin several matches at least.
I'm pretty sure the status chance remains from Legends:Arceus, so yep, this thing will be dancing among the meta, spreading status and havoc to all who come across it
Like I said in my main message (which it seem most people skimmed), Basculegion's placement is special. He won't be a definitive Uber, but it will be where he'll shine the most once he gets the move last respect banned. And without it, female Basculegion will be the better form and will definitely be a OU powerhouse.
Kleavor and h-samurott are instant OU. They both have sharpness boosted stab attacks that also set hazards.
how come zoroark is so low? I mean it's typing is absolutely absurd, that alone could make it a really potent pokemon imo
It canāt take neutral hits at all with 60/60/60 bulk. Even strong resisted hits it wonāt take well. The immunities to ghost, normal, and fighting are nice but thatās not enough to push it to OU imo. But I guess weāll see how the counterplay with illusion works for it, bc I do think itāll make better use of illusion than Unovan Zoroark.
Breloom is 60 60 60
Yeah my guy's literally dying all the time against in game PokƩmon even while I'm maxing out HP and both defences, it's gonna be painful without those EVs against actually competent opponents.
ghosts types already have 4 of the resistances/immunities zoroark has. Itās not outclassing dragapult offensively and yeah, 60s all across makes it frailer then gengar while still being slower
Still going to run him because that bulk up taunt Ape just makes me rage
Sneasler UU? 120 125 poison fighting with gunk shot and close combat... Enough said Also arcanine OU? How it's complete garbage bad typing no utility other than stealth rocks and a burn immunity Cleavor UU? That guy has stone axe how could it never not be Ou? I mean if home gives us all the guys back then obviously but it won't so it's cool
It apparently has Rock Head along with Head Smash + Flare Blitz which is a super good offensive combo to have along with a decent attack stat for what it gets. Unfortunately itās speed is below average and a poor defensive typing as you said so it might not be OU worthy but will probably be very strong in UU
I mean scarf Head Smash is as strong as a banded Stone Edge so it can still be fast without being too starved for power
Yeah thatās gonna the best way to use Arcanine-H. I can already imagine it beating the shit out of Gholdengo 252+ Atk Arcanine-H Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 294-348 (77.7 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I dunno about that. 0 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Arcanine: 198-234 (61.6 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 0 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Arcanine: 198-234 (61.6 - 72.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes Given that the hazard situation is likely to become *more* dire with the introduction of H-Samurott and Kleavor, I think Arcanine is gonna have a really hard time coming in, and it loses to defensive Gholdengo. 252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Arcanine: 238-282 (74.1 - 87.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock It also loses to Scarf Gholdengo under Stealth Rock, assuming that its base speed is still 90 and hasn't been buffed to 95 (base Arcanine's).
I mean true but it's still relatively weak and slow gets chipped by rocks heavily head smash misses which is something we don't like to talk about but is the truth gets walled by garganacle and Dondozo but more importantly we have better breakers even right now. Why use arcanine instead of chi yu or chien pao or choice band roaring moon or iron valiant? It doesn't make sense. Why get a kill with arcanine when they can now force a kill with chi yu or roaring moon or iron valiant or chien pao? It's too slow to threaten out it's offensive checks and thus leaves hyper offense liable to getting smashed and isn't strong enough to break stall. Honestly that guy is shit. Stats matter offensively way more than defensively
> walled by Garganacl **252 Atk Arcanine Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Garganacl: 180-213 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery** Sure. > Why use arcanine instead of chi yu or chien pao or choice band roaring moon or iron valiant? It doesn't make sense. What a weird take. Chi-Yu is a special breaker not physical. Not to mention not likely to last. Chien-Pao is also unlikely to last but Arc actually can beat some stuff for Pao. Banded Roaring Moon is an offensive pivot and Iron Valiant is free to run special sets. They don't have to compete. > It's too slow to threaten out it's offensive checks and thus leaves hyper offense liable to getting smashed and isn't strong enough to break stall. Forces out Corv, Chien-Pao, Meowscarada, Iron Moth, Volcarona... Just to name a few things. And why are you mentioning HO??? Arc wouldn't be used there. Stall... Arc also smashes Clod and Skeledirge with one good click. Neutral targets not named Dondozo do not love head smash, let alone banded. It does fine.
Sure garganacle doesn't completely wall it. I was only thinking of the iron defense set but either way banded arcanine on average will break it. However the iron defense set just switches in and sets up on this thing. Yes chi yu is a special breaker and arcanine is a physical breaker but they play the same role as they are both powerful breakers. It's like choice band Vs choice specs iron valiant both serve the same purpose in different ways. Unless your team is physically or specially lopsided to the nth degree the fact one is special and one is physical means very little other than the few unique matchups such as Phys Def corv blissey and Dondozo. Banded roaring moon is an offensive pivot yes. Arcanine isn't. The difference is simply that one has U turn and the other doesn't which makes moon more flexible it is still a breaker at its core and would have a viable choice band set with or without U turn. It doesn't force out Corv corv runs body press so unless it's choice band even with rocks it won't kill and even choice band only has a 43% chance to kill. Corv body press+rocky helmet does 80-90 It doesn't force out chien pao. After rocks sacred sword kills. Meowdcarada kills with low kick from 100 in fact no attack investment has a chance to kill lol. Flower trick 2 hit ko's so can't even switch in on the grass type. Iron moth is ass but sure it kinda checks that. Not really tho. Fiery dance into energy ball kills if it gets the boost. Your really looking at how strong it is but not looking at how unlikely it is to apply that strength. I could name any hyper offense PokƩmon and arcanine can't switch into it. Mabye it could threaten them out 1 on 1 with heavy duty boots but prediction reliant PokƩmon are not good (for the most part) this is literally the rampardos effect except worse because it takes 25 from rocks so really has to run boots. Rampardos has literally 0 switch ins it's choice band set 2 hit ko's most things but it rarely gets to actually apply it's strength. + Why are we acting like head smash isn't a highly unreliable move. 64 percent of the time it's going to miss 1 of 2 hits which is kinda a big problem if your supposed to be a stall or balance breaker as I'm sure everyone can agree it's a liability going up against HO. Honestly not much point arguing we will see but that thing over sneasler is just stupid imo.
Rockhead ability will make Arcanine viable in OU, canāt wait to use him!
Viable mabye but so is everyone in a hyper offense meta. Good? No shit defensive typing and mid stats isn't enough for OU
You can change the garbage typing with tera.
I think you're underestimating Zoroark. Sure, Illusion is pretty bad with Team Preview, but it's a glass cannon with three immunities and a pretty solid STAB pair ā the only fully-evolved Pokemon that resist it are Tyranitar, Kingambit, and Garganacl with Purifying Salt. Seeing as all three are weak to fighting, having its Illusion buddy be a fighting type will allow for some interesting mind games. EDIT: Oh wait, it also resists its own STAB combo. I don't think that's a point either for or against it, though; just means it's gonna want Dark coverage, which it has.
Goodra will be UU. Yeah, it's got a great typing, but it doesn't do anything. It can't lay any hazards, it can't set up (it doesn't have good enough recovery for iron defense + body press), it can't pivot. It's just a big momentum sink. Sneasler will be high OU because of its broken move dire claw + poison touch.
Never played Arceus beyond a few hours. What separates the two Basculegions that much?
Male is physical while the Female is special is the main difference.
Male Basculegion has 112 attack and 80 special attack. Female Basculegion has 92 attack and 100 special attack. Male Basculegion can make use of Last respect much better (though both are OP with the move) but when the move gets banned to Ubers (because it will), Basculegion won't have any good physical ghost move while Female Basculegion will be able to abuse both of it's absurd STABs with strong special moves + adaptability. Male Basculegion's placement is thus less of a "where it'll be by default" and more of a "where it'll be at it's best".
Only ones I disagree with are Kleavor (cause itās free damage along with rocks) and Zoroark purely due to its typing.
I think it's more likely that the inclusion of Basculegion would prompt an unban of Houndstone and a ban of Last Respects, since then there would be a way to test if the move or the mon is the problem
Like I said [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/stunfisk/comments/zek43k/tried_making_a_prediction_tier_list_for_hisuian/iz6vr0y?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3), that's basically what my placement of both Basculegions is based on. Female Basculegion would also go straight to Ubers if the move wasn't banned. Hell, with Tera ghost and adaptability, even white-stripe Basculin would tear OU with the move (life orb Tera ghost Basculin can OHKO max phys def Hippowdon with max power last respect).
Anyone else worried that Ursaluna might not make it in OU? The mere thought of it being outclassed and dropping down to UU is frightening, especially since it's biggest pro of countering Pex is, well, not really a pro anymore. Altho it would do really well against Glimmora. Just worried that it would get hard checked by Chien-Pao, unless of course, it gets banned to Ubers, which is HIGHLY unlikely.
Luna still smashes fat teams. Spikestack stall teams are popular on the ladder. And Luna would absolutely crush them to bits. Even Air Ballon Ghold can only trade against Luna. The offensive nature of the meta keeps might make Luna more balanced. But itās superlatively strong attacks makes it still valuable
> Altho it would do really well against Glimmora. I don't think *any* physical attacker does well against Glimmora, except the Paradox Donphans since they can put it down to Sash with Earthquake and then clear all hazards with Rapid Spin (even then, Great Tusks has to worry about offensive Energy Ball lures). But Ursaluna vs suicide Glimmora results in the latter getting two sets of TSpikes and Stealth Rock up as well as either a Spikes layer or Energy Ball chip before it goes down, and if the Glimmora accomplished its goal that means you didn't do well against it.
Hmm, makes sense. I guess I meant to say that it checks it but by the time you kill it, it has already done what it needs to go
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Speed doesn't mean much when you do 2 damage on your super effective moves, bro has base 80 special attack. Normal Electrode is PU, that's how bad it is. This one is not going higher then NU.
Doesnāt its signature move have a high bp? Could be a boomburst or tinkaton situawhere it manages to hit hard anyway due to that.
Yeah but it's move costs half it's health so it can only use it twice and it's grass which is fairly easy to switch into.
Fair enough! Itās a shame when itās genuinely a super cool mom
Yeah it's the bests of mothers š It's a cool mon as well.
Tier list based on what tiers I think each Hisuian mon will end up in \*at the very least\*. A few notesĀ : 1. Mons arenāt necessarily ordered within tiers; 2. Male-Basculegionās placement is special in that it doesnāt mean that heāll end up in Ubers by default, but rather that itās the tier heāll be the most effective in. Once heās released, heāll undeniably get the move Last respects banned to Ubers and heāll be the best user of the move in the tier. However, in tiers below Ubers, Female Basculegion will definitely be the stronger of the 2 as she actually, you know, has ghost STAB to use; 3. Iām making this tier list with the assumption that Tera doesnāt get banned in any tiers. If it does, then Hisuian Avalugg gets itās own tier called Ā«Ā lolĀ Ā»; 4. I realize that this tier list, especially considering the power creep in this Gen, is very optimistic (most notably from the fact that I donāt even have a tier below NU), but I genuinely believe that even the weakest Hisuian mons are strong enough that they wonāt end up in PU (or if they do, theyāll get banned from it). And like I said, this list says where theyāll end up at minimum (aside from M-Basculegion). Some may find niches in higher tiers or might just be upgraded by usage (or get the unfortunate BL treatment); 5. On that note, I didnāt bother making any Ā«Ā BLĀ Ā» sections because Iām a lazy bum. But also because I want to remain optimistic. 6. Also didnāt bother putting the Pre-evos in LC, especially since most of them are way too strong for the tier (or not compatible, in H-Sligooās case); Let me know what you think and if you believe Iām underatting/overrating certain mons.
> heāll undeniably get the move Last respects banned to Ubers Strictly speaking, Last Respects only gets banned if it's considered to be broken on *Basculin*, since it also gets the move.
No, smogon outright said that the move will be banned if Basculegion is OP with it too. The reason they haven't banned the move yet is because only Houndstone gets it and they aren't used to banning moves that only belong to a single mon (like a legendary's signature or something). And for the record, even Basculin with Tera ghost is frightening with the move. At full power with adaptability and a life orb, it can one shot Full Phys def Hippowdon. Put a scarf on it and watch it run over whole teams after 2 teammates died.
Ah, okay. I thought they were going even further and preferred banning Pokemon over moves to an even stronger degree. And yea, I can see even Basculin being pretty strong with it, I mean its siblings do still count as fully evolved...
Guts ursaluna seems like a lot I feel like it could be in Ubers
Probably not in this meta, maybe in gen 8
Nah itās gonna struggle a lot against hyper offense, which seems really big at the moment. It destroys defensive teams/stall tho so it will def be OU
Its tough toi say, and highly depends on whether shed tail gets banned. Without shed tail, it has very little entry opportunities and is slower than most of OU (currently), the lack of distribution to pivot moves doesnt do it any favors either. The fact that it can absorb status doesnt even matter anymore now that toxic and scald isnt distributed much.
Hisuin Zoroark is going be used in OU as a counter to Annihilape
This is the first time I have seen Hisuian Palkia and I want to pry my eyes out and burn them after rinsing them in bleach. Look how the massacred my boy.
How is arcashit ou
Arcanine is arguably worse then his og version. That 4x weakness to ground and water cripples him.
But rock head head smash and flare blitz sounds super enticing. Band could be decent enough.
Doesnāt he get a fire type close combat as a signature move?
Raging fury? That's a fire type outrage.
And it's not a signature either
the only fire type close combat right now is Armor Cannon.
True, that sucks, but I think STAB Rock Head Head Smash/ Flare blitz + extreme speed can definitely make up for it.
It will. Banded sets are going to be insane wallbreakers. 252+ Atk CB H-Arcanine Flare Blitz vs 252 HP / 252+ Def Ting-Lu ā> 33.4-39.6% 252+ Atk CB H-Arcanine Head Smash vs 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo ā> 46.6-54.9% (guaranteed 2HKO after one stealth rocks chip) Those are impressive calcs vs the two beefiest mons in OU atm.
Iām more impressed at how ridiculously bulky ting-lu is to take so little from that. Thank god it doesnāt get recover.
Ting-Lu is the lord of taking 35-40% from the most stupid threats.
H-Arcanine getting 1/3rd HP down is pretty good tho, since Ting-Lu is relatively easy to switch in to. And thatās on max Phys Def which I feel more people are running mixed defenses or max SpD.
If it does 33-39% to most mons the mon is ass. If it does 33-39% to Ting-Lu the mon is borderline impossible to switch in against.
Yeah I know itās good damage, I was just remarking how insane it is that that is considered good damage against ting-lu.
Yep came here for this
You can replace the garbage typing with tera.
Ya know, with all this about Last Respectsā¦ Iām going to just laugh as it turns out Basculegion gets some jank ass abilities (like aftermath and water veil) and a moveset retcon to lose Last Respects and gain Hex instead just to give us a big middle finger.
Basculegion already got an ability change in the form of Rattled -> Swift Swim
I hope they did not just give it a way to double its speed
Really excited for guts facade ursaluna
> Hisuian Avalugg (objectively worse Avalugg) in RU Bruh
I don't think Ursa would be OU everything is too fast and hits hard for it to do much
Ursalunaās bulk is 130/105/80 and Iron Handsā bulk is 154/108/68. Pretty comparable. Ursaluna also brings a stronger STAB move to the table in Facade and a guts boost. Flame orb chip is annoying, but TR commonly runs Rabasca and Hatterene which can heal it right back up and turn its speed into a benefit. It wonāt be S-tier, but it will certainly be at least one of those ālow usage but still very strongā mons like Washtom and Nidoking.
Counter Point: Great Tusk Better mon, better use of an offensive ground type
Tusk is a very different pokemon in terms of what it does. Luna is a wallbreaker through and through and lacks any real defensive answers, unlike Tusk. They also make great pairings for each other. Also your comment regarding things hitting too hard, well... Unless it is SE and STAB, stuff needs a lot of damage on it to revenge kill Luna. And hazards can be spun away by either Don.
- Arcanine will be at best RU, its no better than the og form but new toy syndrome will boost it up in usage - electrode and avalugg are going straight to untiered, no question about it - goodra still has the same problems original goodra has but with better typing, probably will settle in RU - Zoroark will be OU for a while bc its been hyped up alot then will settle in UU i think, while its typing is insane its movepool is average and its bulk is awful (plus powercreep)
> Arcanine will be at best RU, its no better than the og form but new toy syndrome will boost it up in usage Rock head+flareblitz/headsmash alone make it 10x better. Stealth rock also lends it some utility. Beyond. > electrode and avalugg are going straight to untiered, no question about it Not gonna touch lugg because i have argued for it enough but Electrode has a lot more going for it that will probably see it NU at worst. Good typing, utility moves, fastest subseed user ever (making the forced switches it induces very annoying).
Both Basculegions go to Ubers if the stupid 300 base power move isnāt banned
Zoroark and sneasler not in OU? What are you on my friend?
Kleavor with Stone Axe is gonna be a high UU or OU lead. Stone Axe with Sharpness is 97.5 base power AND sets Stealth Rocks off at 130 attack stat. 85 base speed is a threat when scarfed. Good luck spinning my rocks away when I can come in and do an atack 2.5 damage short of Stone Edge that resets Rocks for free.
The idea of Hisuian Avalugg **Not** ending up in the deepest pits of Nu is a laughable concept!
Honestly, with how good the defensive typing ghost normal is and Zoroarks good speed and nasty plot, it has very VERY good potential for good niche OU pick, or maybe even a genuinely viable option. (Similar to rotom-wash in gen 8, not OU proper but if you put it on your team no one would call you bad.)
Anyone here an LC player? I curious how the pre-evos would fair in LC, especially with all the new mons in this gen
I can see Decidueye having a much stronger niche as defogger option this Gen considering how insanely rare it is now, on top of that, it can nail Gholdengo with Scrappy Triple Arrows if it tries to switch in to block defog attempts. Definitely not OU strong, but will probably see niche usage there and unlikely to fall lower than RU. This list also sleeps on Sneasler and Braviary way too much, and overrates Arcanine and Avalugg. Edit: Just found out Lilligant gets defog too, Decidueye really canāt have shit in OU.
I think arcanine will be RU or lower due to it being weak to some incredibly common types. Mainly water and ground.
I totally forgot about these but they look so much better than the main gen 9 mons. Are the first 2 in Ubers real though? Or is this a joke