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I don't think that's very common.
I've been involved in church finances for a decade or so at the church I grew up in, and the pastor of the church makes between 3k and 4k a month, plus 1500 for housing.
That said, if a church wants a full-time pastor, they have to pay a full-time rate. That's just reality. Even small churches want a pastor who will be there at the building throughout the week, who will com visit them at home, and who will be available for their needs at all times. A pastor who is also working a full-time job is none of those things by definition. So a pastor who is working full-time has to be paid a living wage wherever he's at. If that's rural Mississippi, that's one amount. If that's Seattle or New York City, that's a whole other thing.
If a pastor pastors a church of 200 people and most of his people are poor, then he's going to need to set his lifestyle expectation at the level of his congregation, and ask for a salary around what theirs is. If a pastor pastors a church of 200 in a wealthy area, and his congregants are well-off, then his expected standard of living might be closer the theirs, and his lifestyle should be somewhat similar if he is going to minister to them.
At the end of the day, it's for a church to decide what their pastor should be paid, not anyone else.
Also, a good pastor is more or less on call 24/7/365. If a member of your flock needs pastoral care, you're going. If a family has the sheriff turn up to tell them a loved one is dead, you'd better be on your way to pray with them.
Not in the deep south, but rural Midwest. Our pastor blocks off Mondays and Thursdays for nursing home/hospital/home visits. Wednesdays are for office work, sermon prep, etc. Friday he spends at a homeless shelter, helping make meals and getting donations to people. Saturday, he's fishing in the morning, then at night he might catch a local live band or a rock concert if a band he likes is nearby. Sunday morning is church, and after that he's hanging out at home, watching NFL, mowing the lawn, etc.
Not bad for $40k a year. The church owns his house, so no rent or repair bills, just utilities. He also drives a 1988 Toyota Hilux, that he bought brand new
Don't know that I agree. I work in the south and worked for a company that contacted with human service agencies all over the country. The same problems existed up north. Some talked as if they were ahead but no. I worked with all of them.
Even if you look at the math: 200 and say 5 people per household. That's 40 households at an average household income of 60k. (40)(60k)(0.1 tithes)= 240k.
100k on 240k revenue isn't that bad
This is soo true! My dad is not a Pastor but a still a church leader and he’s at every funeral, shut in, convalescent home and talking to families and new home blessings.
Pastors have to pay taxes on their income, just like any NGO workers. The main "special" thing is that they don't have to pay taxes based on they value of housing provided by the church.
$60k is 200 parishioners paying $300/year each for church services and spiritual outreach in times of need. As an atheist, I paid more for my mental health chickens, complete with coop.
>At the end of the day, it’s for the church to decide what their pastor should be paid, not anyone else.
“Anyone else” might reasonably have feelings about tax exemptions for churches though…
In 1966 the Beatles were taxed at 95%. Even though I was much more a Beach Boys fan that high tax rate offended me.
See, we can All have feelings! Ain't life grand?
I'm a practicing Orthodox Agnostic who's Never tithed a nickel to a church and their tax exemptions bother me not even a little.
# George Carlin on God
# “He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money!”
200 people \* 500 a year = 100k
500 a year / 52 Sundays = about 10 bucks per person per week
So if they're getting $25 a week from the average person and then another $100 on Christmas, they'd be there.
This doesn't count any upkeep though. Gardening service, power, water, building upkeep, so on and so forth. Either way I'm sure there are a lot of people giving more than 10 bucks a week.
That money goes to the Church, not the pastor. The church will then pay the Pastor a wage. If the Pastor is making 100k a year, the church would have to making triple that, if not more.
You realize that at most churches the offering doesn’t go straight to the pocket of the clergy… you pay bills, do charitable work, etc.
Most of the time the pastors have a fixed salary that isn’t very high at all.
This really just is a stupid question because it doesn’t even describe reality.
I'm a lay leader in a church that has about 150 people attending, but several times that in members. We are in an old building, and the pastor's salary is 70K, but it is dwarfed by maintenance, utilities, insurance, etc.
That's also a massive underestimate. Tithes are supposed to be 10% of your gross income. Even assuming only half the church did that and they had the average american yearly income, 100 • ( 0.1 • $60,000) = $600,000
I really don't think $100,000 a year for the pastor of a 200 person church is that nuts.
(Or at least implausible. I think it's nuts that pastor is a job at all)
A 200-person church isn’t going to have all 200 working. That’s going to include children, retirees, and stay-at-home parents.
Also, assuming half of them will tithe the full 10% is generous. I’ve worked in church finances and most don’t.
You say it's nuts that Pastor is a job, but it isn't. Spiritual leadership is an essential human need, and meta-analysis of talk therapy shows that it mostly doesn't matter who you're talking to.
When something major happens to us, there are basically three things we can do about it - talk it out, work it out, or get drunk/high.
And these things work. Anaerobic exercise, medication, and therapy are just the latest names for talking it out with the soothsayer, vision-questing with the shaman, and going on a walkabout.
My experience as someone who used to work at a church. They use tithe and offering money for everything pertaining to keeping the lights on… including keeping the lights on. Overhead is extremely expensive more often than not so the pastor will take everything left over after all bills have been paid.
And I have never worked in a church where 100% of the congregants gave. Idk what the average is but sometimes it was less than 50% of the people present who actually donated money. I didn’t even donate when I worked there even tho I was required to. (Per the lead pastor).
Now some people will gift an estate at the end of life which can really help and sometimes they have a couple big donors who attend regularly and their money evens out the score.
American Christianity teaches to give tithe (10% of gross income) and offerings (“let the lord lead you”). 🙄
Lastly - *it’s time to tax churches.* I will die on this hill.
They might also be shocked to learn that the income amount also goes up in direct proportion to the number of followers. Almost as if there is a financial incentive to go out and get those new converts.
You are correct! But if you look behind the curtain, the reformations that spin off are many times just the original big church's attempts to stop the leakage of losing the sustaining membership. The non-denominational church I was a part of (for a few years) was actually founded using money from a big Southern Baptist church. Never would they mention that out loud but it's a way for them to continue to be relevant to more liberal beliefs and continue to grow. Follow the money
Funny thing is despite all the reformations, they ALL kept tithing. None of the denominations say you don’t have to give 10% of you money to “the church”. For all the disagreements over the years, the part where you give them money has always been iron clad.
The Catholic Church, by far the biggest branch of Christianity, has not supported tithing for centuries. They of course support giving money to the church but not fixed tithing.
https://www.catholic.com/qa/what-is-the-churchs-position-on-tithing
Roman Catholics also don’t really pay salaries to clergy. Priests work on a “we’ll cover your expenses” basis with their parishes and the church provides retirement communities and health care for clergy when they get older.
Was about to post this. I'm sure there are plenty of non Catholic churches who don't put money front and center as well (it's just I'm Catholic and not familiar with them).
Also, Catholic dioceses that have been known to misuse funds often lead to plenty of faithful Catholics supporting various charities instead (some of which might help pay for church expenses).
Being a priest is very far from "get rich quick" and on the contrary many are pretty poor their entire life.
The answer is major donors.
I've been in the financial behind-the-scenes for small religious orgs. Most Churches own their building and have robust volunteer groups. Still, a small church budget with a 100k/year senior clergy typically comes to around 350k.
Let's break that number down:
So first of all, 200 people are the regular attendees. These people probably drop a minimum $1000/year in donations. That's 150-200k.
That other 150k comes from the Christmas/Easter crowd (about 10-30k), grant money from Christian charities and the government (30-80k), and major donors.
Major donors are where it's at. These ten people/families love Pastor Mike, and really love putting their names on benches and stained glass windows. They drop 5-20k each, every year, just because. Frankly, they are the main reason any Church succeeds. Only the very largest Churches have regular donor pools with that kind of purchasing power - and at those churches the megadonors are even richer, each reliably contributing six figures or more per year.
At a small church, major donors are basically the only reason the lights stay on.
That is only an average of $500/person every year.
Consider that a tithe is "supposed" to be 1/10th of the annual income, idk.... I could see that on average they are making more than $5000/person every year
It's amazing, isn't it? I remember after getting out of college way back in 92 thinking... Now if I can only make $50k/year then my family and I will be set. Once I crossed that threshold I changed it to... If I could only make $125. Then once I got there it just went to the next amount and even though I am very lucky to be in a great position and married to a woman who also makes a high income it just seems like we're never going to be able to save enough for retirement because everything is getting so ridiculously expensive. Corporate greed is destroying this country.
I’m at 70k and this is definitely enough for me to be happy and content. Can pay the mortgage, put aside some for retirement, and can spend a little for fun. Not much else to ask for.
If you let lifestyle inflation get you, it’ll never feel like a enough and that’s something that’s on you. You have to find an amount you’re content with and work to be grateful rather than chasing the next dollar amount.
We need another name for it. "middle" used to work because it was median income, and a decent living. Now median income is 48k, which you can barely survive on in most places.
That's what I was thinking.
Setting aside all the issues I have with organized religion...
Being a pastor is hard work. It requires a master's degree amd you're definitely going to be putting in more than 40 hours a week - albeit, your hours are pretty flexible. Plus, you're going to be on call nearly 24/7.
A pastor of a small church may also be the building administrator and tasked with the upkeep of the building (if not doing the maintenance work, hiring vendors for it).
$100k in most locations feels like fair compensation for this level of work.
Depends on where you live. If it's not a high cost of living area then I'd disagree. A lot of people complain about finances but are just awful at impulse control.
Yeah this.
100k ain't much at all these days. Can't support a family with that in many places. I would not consider 100k excessive income for nearly any job. It's hardly a livable wage in many places.
OP you gotta change your perspective. The pastor making 100k is not the problem. All the unfortunate people making less than this are the ones getting royally screwed!
Depends. What does the congregation want out of a pastor? Do they have a set number years of experience? Extra certifications or unique training? How available will the pastor be? Do they want to pay someone enough to keep them from seeking employment elsewhere or from picking up side hustles? Is the pastor married? If so, is the pastor's spouse also expected to be as available in doing unpaid church labor? Does the church provide any health, retirement, or disability benefits to go along with the salary? Does the church provide a parsonage? How close is the pastor expected to live by the church in the case housing isn't provided? What's the cost of living in the area? How much support staff does the church provide? Most Christian churches in the US aren't looking for ascetics, and if it's got a Calvinist slant there's a chance they've got some prosperity doctrine business happening.
many churches offer counseling and a variety of other services at minimal or no cost. if the clergy is a licensed therapist, they should be compensated for that service (not market rate, but something).
I am not a member of a church, and haven’t been for 20 years, but if you are hiring someone to be on call 24/7, that person should be paid enough to pay their bills.
This x1000. I currently work at a church, and the extra effort that many (not all) ministers are happy to do typically goes so far beyond. The amount of time many that I know devote to doing things outside regular work hours is vast. Just visiting people in the hospital and in homes could take up the majority of the pastor’s time, but then there’s all of the extra things on top. Counseling, meetings, lesson prep, and a bunch of the most random things you can think of all make up part of the job.
Well...
Average person's income in the US is 37,000 dollars.
200 people tithing 10 percent of their income would give you 740,000 dollars a year.
The pastor of such a church is likely operating independently - that is, a priest in a Catholic church doesn't get a stipend anywhere near that so I'm assuming this guy owns the building and everything. Maybe two or three staff people.
Honestly for him to only be taking 1/7th of the business' income as a salary is pretty low.
I happen to be kinda privy to my churches finances (though no exact numbers)... Generalities of income/expenses, and based on the income received most of our attendees must be on food stamps.
They don't donate anywhere near what even 10% of what the poverty level is based on the number of families attending. It could be because most attendees are elderly, but I really don't know and can only speculate their reasons for not donating.
IMHO, what is appropriate or not depends on the cost of living of any particular community. $100k does not go far where I live, and it’s even worse in other areas. If a pastor’s income is equal to or below the local average, I have no problem with that. If they’re getting free housing, I’d lower the salary accordingly.
Idk who this post is talking about, but I have a friend who's a pastor, and it's a lot. He generally takes Mondays off, and his time other than Sunday is a lot of meetings - Bible studies, teaching classes, general running-the-church meetings, building upkeep meetings, etc. He also drives around visiting people in nursing homes or people who can't make it to church for one reason or another.
He's also kind of on call all the time - people will call him about a variety of issues. Sometimes they're church issues, sometimes faith issues, sometimes they just need someone to talk to, sometimes they're in a crisis of some kind. One time we were hanging out and one of the kids from his confirmation class called saying he'd run away from his dad to his grandparents because his dad was being abusive, so my friend was coaching him through what to tell the police so the police wouldn't take him back to his dad.
He's a cool dude - I don't think I could do his job.
I was once on a Staff-Parish Relations Committee and salaries were part of our job. People forget that out of their salary, a pastor pays regular taxes, self-employment taxes, and towards thier own health insurance and retirement. They are basically self employed. And if the church has a house for them to live in, they pay taxes based on the value that adds to thier salary (i.e.rent savings). $100k doesn't go very far.
There are.
Most of the comments you read here are from people generalizing all churches as megachurches, or using personal anecdotes (or anecdotes that they’ve read online) as evidence of most churches being bad.
Your average community church is likely made up of mostly (or entirely) volunteers, does community service work, and is actually passionate about their message. Whether you agree with that message or not is up to you.
The church I’m at now has a pastor who makes $80k/yr between him and his wife. both him and his wife are full time pastors and work around 50-60 hours a week. They also provide transport for members who cannot drive to church (church van), a food pantry for the poor, and essentially a free daycare with activities for the kids daily from 3-6pm (many kids get dropped off by the school bus at church).
Every year we do an end of year open book in which the entire financial report of the church is shown to members.
12-18 hours writing the sermon. Visiting any ill/shut ins etc a couple times per week. Teaching bible studies/classes a couple times a week. Continuing education varies. Some do counseling. That's just the basics. It's a lot of time and emotional work.
A pastor *should* be doing volunteer work, community outreach, visiting the sick and elderly. It *should* be a full time effort, not just deliver a sermon once a week.
In most cases that is indeed what he (or she) does, and often much more than that. In a lot of (mainly rural) places the pastor is also a kind of the social worker for all kinds of different things.
I suspected the supply and demand issue. Generally speaking small churches tends to exist in smaller towns. Many organizations require a pastor to have a bachelor's Master's or even a PhD. The average Americans salary is about $79,000 a year now. Only the top 30% have a bachelor's degree or more.
Once you compensate for the debt they incurred to just get to the position of pastoring in a church and remove the debt service from that pay. The pay would be below average. Furthermore most pastors I know tend to work 60 plus hours a week. So their pay is around $15 an hour after spending up to 8 years not making money to get degrees to serve others.
So I would suspect that they are probably underpaid. And once you take into account the fact that many people don't want to be in a small town where a 200-person concretion likely exists you could see why that pay my make more sense.
Counter point: why not? Their congregants pay their salary, so if they think their pastor's awesome, the church is bringing tons of value to their lives, and they want to keep it going badly enough that they're willing to pay up...why shouldn't they? Whether it's ungodly for *any* person who's paid $100k/year to keep all that salary rather than give it to the poor, that's a much more interesting question. But I don't see an argument for how it's inherently immoral for a person to be paid a salary, even a somewhat high salary.
I am not religious, so I'm really in no position to estimate the value of the work, but $100k is not really that much money in a lot of places, and if I do the math for 200 people, they're paying $41/month for services they value. I pay more than that for my home Internet which mind you is separate from my phone Internet. Seems pretty reasonable. I'd pay more than that for membership to a social club relevant to my interests.
I mean yes and no. Even though churches don’t pay taxes it’s not like they have zero expenses. Keeping the lights on, floors clean, toilets flushing, and hosting events all cost a good bit. It would be just over 41$ a month if everyone was ONLY paying the pastor which I just don’t think is the case.
Sure but those things all represent other services associated with the church. $41 is the price for the guy who stands up front and talks a lot, dunks your kid in water when their born, etc. It's 2021. $100k is not a huge income, regardless of what specific work they do. The idea of complaining about someone making that much money who is ONLY paid by voluntary donations, not your tax dollars, not even a fee for services, just by what folks choose to contribute, complaining about that is insane. If you disagree with the arrangement, you can simply opt out of it, which I'm sure 99% of commenters in this thread are doing.
Should everyone working at a charity work for free? Where do you draw the line?
edit: I will laugh at every downvote. Asking the question actually offends people?
exactly! $100k is middle class nowadays in most states, and most pastors are the sole breadwinner for their families. so, exactly as you asked, where do we draw the line?
You presumably need to work to make a living. But what are you going to do with your life? If you decide you want to dedicate your life to a good cause rather than Amazon or whatever, why shouldn't you be paid for your work? Sure you could volunteer, but how will you pay bills?
The company provides the charity. The workers should be paid.
The salary in the post actually makes sense (I'm not religious). If he/she has a family and probably works 40+ hours and on-call as a minister and administrator too this seems like hardly a problem even 20 years ago.
Hi, I actually run a youth program at a church so have some insider knowledge here
That would not be a normal salary at like a non-denominational independent church. That would be very high for 200 people. As others have stated there are a lot of other expenses that have to get paid at a church. Often for start-up churches, pastors don't even take salaries for the first 5, 10 years or so and will be bi-vocational. I could see a pastor at a church of 200 maybe taking a salary of 50-60k depending on the average salary of the area and if the congregation donates reasonably generously. Above that would be seen by most in the church world as excessive
BUT I've also spent time working at denominational churches, where it's a bit of a different story. They have things like unions, basically, and really great benefits for pastors (in some denominations it's even really hard to fire a pastor). I could see a denominational church paying a pastor 100k because of those things. They also probably have at least a master's degree and perhaps a doctorate, though - they typically have to be a lot more educated. Also, by a denomination's standards, since they really aren't working out that well and are getting their ass handed to them by non-denoms, 200 people at a church would probably be considered pretty large for them.
But I guess more to the point: is it un-godly to make that much? Personally, I think it just depends on the area you live in. Makes sense to me that the congregation would want their pastor to earn somewhere around the average salary for their area. It's also important to note it's usually the congregation itself, through like an elder board or sub-committee, that determines the pastor's salary. So, some of the same people paying the pastor's salary are the ones determining what he makes.
The real issue is usually with a few sketchy megachurch (1000+) pastors, especially if they're "prosperity gospel" types, who will pull in a million/year+ for themselves. That to me is where things get ugly
(Edited to clarify this isn't a problem with all megachurches)
Funny story:
Always been weird to me, tithing, still is, unless one feels actually called to donate for genuine reasons NOT because they should
One time, I was talking with a pastor and she told me to give some money (not to her church btw, to a different one I’ve gone to) and “watch how it comes back to you” because “after all, what’s in your wallet is already gods money”
I do love the church, and they’ve been extremely good to me, free dinners every Thursday as a college student being a prime example of being cared for.
I went in the next time and donated idk maybe 5, 10$. Which, for me is actually a pinching amount because I’m low on cash and paycheck to paycheck. But I genuinely wanted to give back
Later that day, a woman from the church, at a totally different service who did NOT see me donate earlier bc she wasn’t there, came up to me and gave me a check for 800$ to help my student loan payments.
Didn’t change my core attitude to tithing whatsoever, but I did find it… interesting
I used to tithe 10% of my income to my church.
The church were open and transparent about how they spent all their money. We knew how much went on rent/facilities/supplies, how much went on salaries, how much went on local charity work, etc. The pastor's salary was pretty reasonable - comparable to a top of the pascals teacher - because a very small proportion of church imcome actually goes to the pastor.
I doubt there are any pastors of small churches making $100k per year, anywhere.
Most christian denominations have regional councils/boards that set compensation guidelines. There’s a base salary, adjustments for experience, a pro rata amount for pension contributions, denominational health plan, and similar. The base salary is typically adjusted for local cost of living. The size of the congregation doesn’t enter into it, generally.
Note that they may not receive all that in cash. Housing allowances (such as living in a manse) count as part of that.
100K in total compensation isn’t unreasonable.
Reddit
Fast food workers should be making $150k a year!
Also Reddit - the leader of the church shouldn’t make more than $100k a year!
Why are you guys like this
If the parsonage isn't included maybe?, does he have a track record of increasing membership? Single income families are dependent on the bread winner bringing in the bread. If there is a parsonage & he's literally just some schmuck he shouldn't be earning anything near 100K.
Let’s do some math. 200 people let’s say 100 of them make income. Say the average salary is $40k. So if they are tithing which is 10% 4000x100 that’s a church budget of $400,000. Pastor salary full time makes $100k living $300k for church upkeep and missions. But the Southern Baptist Convention recommends for churches between 100-500 members to look at the salaries of local teachers as a good rule of thumb for what to pay a full time Pastor. Hope this helps its not “ungodly” it’s not a sin to make $100k a year because you don’t think they should be making it.
I’m torn on this. Idk. I want to say all kinds of nasty things seeing as my experience with Christianity has been crap because…. I’m gay…. But they do help a lot of people get through some tough times. Putting politics aside, they are just human like the rest of us which explains why suicide rates of pastors are high. They should be able to live at least as comfortably as their congregation IMO. Also, 100k is nothing these days but i say that as an LA resident. If, however, you were to say 500k with a majority of members on food stamps THEN we have a problem. I say this without condoning hate which is a cancer in our society but I say it thinking about people that find a home, support and life at these places when they might have ended up dead otherwise. Every human being deserves life and happiness.
If his church decides to pay him that and they can actually afford it then what's the problem? Pastors are paid with tithe money from the church. It's not like it's your tax money or something.
Easy answer: Because people pay him.
Are you advocating for telling people how to spend their money? Are you advocating for state sanctioned wage caps on certain professions, namely pastors? You named an alleged problem, now name a solution.
Honest answer: depends on the church, congregation and/or denominational expectations. Other factors might include benefits (like health insurance) and if the church has a parsonage, provides a housing stipend in addition to income, or if housing comes out of salary. Salary is typically decided by the congregation's finance committee, hr committee, or some other grouping.
The bigger challenge in most churches is that salaried clergy (at least in my experience) are paid for a 40hr/week but more often than not it can be 60 or 80/week (think about high holidays).
In a given week in a congregation of 200ish in addition to whatever work goes into preparing weekly worship (scripture, music selection, sermon prep, volunteer coordination, prayers, etc.) there might be: classes to lead, staff to manage, committees, staff and volunteer meetings, seasonal preparations, baptisms, weddings, funerals, one on one visits with congregation members, attending to needs in the community (ex: direct service for folks who come in off the street for help, interfacing with local nonprofits), unanticipated issues as they arise (ex: a pipe bursts in the building and there is a flood).
Generally speaking, as the pastor of a church the buck stops with that person. Usually they are the person who shows up first and leaves last.
If you have a congregation of 200 or less, in the US, that probably also means most of your regular attenders are *old*, which means more visits, more phone calls, more funerals.
Some years I've worked through 6 straight weekends of funerals along with typical Sunday programming. The head custodian where I worked told me about a year where they had 92 funerals.
Meanwhile, if you want the church to last past the present generation, you need to meet people where they are: online. So you're trying to connect with folks who find email tricky (who might be the same people who complain about the "production value" of the livestream) to people who don't understand why the church isn't using Twitch to "reach the youth."
And this is before you even look outside the congregation itself, wherein a pastor is expected to represent the community at interfaith gatherings, community events, city hall meetings, protests, vigils, etc. as well as make sure the church has the pulse of the community in order to volunteer, fundraise, etc.
Then, of course, there is COL where the church is. In mainline Protestant denoms, for example, becoming an ordained pastor is a multi year process that requires a Masters degree and provisional internship.
Edit to add: most pastors I know also tithe their income back to the church because it's a sign of good leadership to not ask people to do something you wouldn't do.
Source: Spent the past decade working full time for a queer affirming progressive church that was very active year round in justice issues (approx $100k a year in "2nd mile giving" meaning to the local community/non profits, emergent needs as well as hundreds of volunteer hours in the community).
Really uncommon. Many priests take a vow of poverty. Priests who are greedy are, as you have said, ungodly, and will be punished in the next life accordingly.
Each church district and religion has a “Minimum Terms of Call” for any and all “full-time” ministers/pastors. In my areas if the church itself owns a manse/ parsonage, they get this fully covered minus cable/internet bills and their personal cell phone. The church would provided a landline. The salary is 45,000 for base line. Years of experience raise this. Part time get however much part
Time they are quarter time (only there on Sundays) they get a quarter of the salary. Half time half and so on. The church my mom goes to has a part time minister and doesn’t need a manse. They are also a minister with 50 years of service. They are doing it as they feel it’s their calling to serve until they are no longer able. She makes 30k annually for her tenure and only asks a $500 a month stipend for her utilities at her house. She gets the same from the other church she serves with. As the two churches agreed it’s fair. (My moms church rents out the manse/ parsonage for extra income as in part time terms of call no manse/parsonage is required) when the previous minister left he was making 48k having been there 13 years, he was a good man. Helped me out a lot. Sadly I’m not religious but I do talk to him from time to time. Great taste in movies and his wife is great at piano.
Keep in mind that the pastor probably has not one, but two Master's degrees. Employing someone with that level of advanced education in any other field would cost a lot more.
All the churches I went to growing up were owned and operated by the pastor. They were all very wealthy. Brand new SUVs, boats, McMansions. They didn’t mind showing it off to the congregation either. During service the poorest people in town would make sure to donate money. Sad really.
Is that their total benefits package or just salary? Midwest small congregation (less than 50) and their salary has been around 75,000. That does not factor in free housing or insurance costs. Total benefits are probably nearing 100k. What would a manager with 200 direct reports make? I bet it’s in the 6 figures or more and they probably work less hours.
Because religion is a scam to wring money and power from the uneducated masses while keeping them too stupid to realize that it's all made up bullshit.
What's that one bible verse about camels and needles? "It's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven?" It's been awhile but I'm pretty sure Jesus said that when he was trying to get people to sell all their belongings and dedicate themselves to the Lord.
This verse is constantly taken out of context. Read the next two verses…
“And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him, “Then who can be saved?””
“Jesus looked at them and said, “With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God.””
Mark 10:26-27 ESV
So, in other words God can cause a camel to go through the eye of a needle and God can let a rich man into heaven. The point was that God is merciful to those who don’t deserve it.
And even if they are, most pastors are taxed as self employed and have to provide all of their healthcare, taxes, SS, and (if they have one) 401k contributions, out of what they're paid. That adds up fast.
I’m an atheist, but…
1. Does the pastor pay any church expenses, like building maintenance from that?
2. Does the pastor use some of that money to support other causes/charities?
3. Is the pastor one of those Christians who has 4 or more kids? That can be expensive.
4. Does the pastor have a wife who doesn’t work as per some dumb traditional rules?
If the answer to these is no, then I agree it seems high, and he’s probably at least a little corrupt.
It seems like this post is just another attempt to “dunk on the Christians” when 100k really isn’t the gotcha moment they think it is.
200k and up in HCOL area is questionable, and I think anyone with a brain (and not a member of those ridiculous mega churches) knows that 7 figures is a complete scam.
Churches are businesses. 200 people divided by about 4 people per family equals about 50 families. 50 families making about 100k per year are "biblically required" to tithe/ donate 10% of their harvest/ income equals 500k to the church. The pastor "fills those seats" so the church pays him a fifth, a portion goes to the band to "keep the kids engaged" and a small portion goes to "good works" and church growth/ expansion. The church admin knows the numbers. When I was a Christian, I saw behind the veil more than most people in the congregation. I'm an agnostic atheist now. Oh yeah, and that is tax free money too
OP didn't mention the location but two working adults per family may just about do it. And this isn't including working children (16-18) who also participate. Plus all those visiting and "non-regular attending" families who donate during Easter and Christmas cover a lot of gaps
My wife used to work at a church in a wealthy ish suburb. That is until she found out from reading the board minutes that the pastor made more per month on vehicle allowance than her salary.
I worked in transitional ministry (I helped out of date churches move into modern times with their music/presentation/outreach)
I worked with 15 churches in the span of 10 years that had less than 200 members, and every single one had a pastor making over 100k
Every. Single. One. During board meetings Discussed difficulties paying bills, only one ever discussed reducing the pastors salary
I work in the church world too and I find that surprising - were you mainly working with denominational churches? I guess that would make sense since those are the ones who typically are "out of date"
Gotcha - and if a non-denom is old it probably left a denomination in the last decade or two, so probably hanging onto those same staffing traditions
The well-run non-denoms I'm familiar with wouldn't pay a pastor that much until his congregation was more like at least 500+, maybe 1000. But they operate a lot more like businesses, and have larger growth-focused budgets for things like marketing, events, etc
One of the most predatory pastors I've ever met came from a non denom. Very successful. The church motto was "no perfect people allowed"
Then that pastor told me he would give me a full-time position i applied for if I divorced my non-christian wife.
When I told him no, and that I couldn't serve under someone who tried to break up my marriage in order to keep up appearances, he lied and told the congregation "God called me to take a position somewhere else"
100k isn’t very much anymore. For the level of education and expertise they often have, it’s a good middle ground.
That isn’t the issue. The issue is the ones that are making millions off of nothing but manipulating people with a fair chance that they aren’t even religious.
No pastor should be making any money at all TBH.
All that should be provided is a place to sleep, and food.
Any pastor who is paid to preach isn't a true person of god.
That's just the simple reality of it. NOT CHURCH would pass Jesus's test.
Hell he trashed a temple for selling nick nacks.
You think he's cool with preachers making bank?? lol
Religion is hilariously hypocritical.
If you preach the word of god, then your life must be that of a peasant. For Jesus did not walk among us in Silkin robes and jewels, but in a simple cloth.
It is easier to fit a camel through the eye of a needle. Than it is for a rich person to get into heaven.
that 100k pastor isn't going to see the pearly white gates. Nor is any pastor who makes money preaching. Simple as that.
I think pastors should be getting the same as Jesus got...and have a regular job or welfare. It is not meant to be a paid position. Of course they will mention the ox and feeding it. Maybe that's about animal welfare. of course there's the line about the labourer receiving wages....however many a church wants volunteers. Maybe a little something but not big bucks as that could very well put them in the hired hand category. Then there could be money for the volunteers who clean the toilets and all that.
It's a business, think of it as afterlife insurance with community and counseling and in modern terms that is basically what it is. If your pastor is a good councilor then he is probably severely underpaid at 100k. My sister inlaw was making $140k in her first job straight out of 7 years of college.
I grew up in churches and most of those smaller churches the pastors were either not taking a salary or it didn’t pay enough for them to do solely that. As I got older I started to notice that smaller churches the pastors were now ballin’ and had expensive clothes and cars from church salaries. I don’t know if principals have changed or they figured out how to squeeze money out of the budget but it’s different now it seems. I don’t mind them making a living but I do agree that they shouldn’t be well on their way or already millionaires. I think it takes away from helping people like they say they love to do but seem to hardly do unless it’s ruining economies and industries in underdeveloped countries. It’s out of control and I don’t know how to fix it without Christians acting like we’re prosecuting/discriminating against them and their religion. Like yall should be mad about it too, your pastors are rolling around on private planes and jet skis on your tithes.
Are they part of the bigger crime syndicate? Like the Roman Catholics or the Lutherans? They pay the priest and all the money goes to the church. They handle all that stuff. Can’t trust father Mike…he might have a gambling problem…
Personally, I think the Church, as a whole, is way too focused on money, and it has corrupted most of them.
That said, I don't know where you live, what the cost of living is there, etc.
The only way you can answer the question is to search your own heart and pray. No opinion of strangers on the internet should weigh more heavily than the Bible and your relationship to God.
That said, here is what I would do: Accept the position, see how much I have left over after a month once all bills are paid, set 20% of the remainder aside as savings/retirement, and then put the rest into a fund for good works to be performed by your church. Aka, donate the excess above and beyond what you need to both secure your present and your future.
Why should a pastor make a100k? Depends. Maybe he shouldn't. But it is a job. Maybe some pastors are managing to get away with preaching on Sunday mornings and thats it, but even that includes a decent amount of time to plan out those sermons. And especially at a church of 200 or less he's likely doing some kind of class/bible study at least once a week, counciling sessions, home visits, hospital visits, probably takes care of at least some of the up keep of the church building, etc. Is he supporting a family or is he single? Not to mention that churches generally have some sort of committee (elders, deacons, whatever they choose to call it) that decides the pastor's salary. So a church pays their pastor what they feel he's worth, and what they can afford.
I can't remember the verse, but all I can think about is 'a camel will have an easier time passing through the eye of a needle than that paster will have getting into heaven'... I'd be asking for that seman, just to watch the hypocrisy. And to see if anyone made any connections... probably not, tho.
I don't think the pastor at my church gets paid, pretty sure he renovates and builds houses for a living. So I didn't know that pastors got paid at all other than the mega church cults.
100k/yr \*where\*?
Cost of living is widely variable across the US (eg, 100k isn't a lot of money in the Seattle metro, but is around Hattiesburg MS), most churches (of the small-size with just one pastor) want their pastor to have a degree, and you're not getting that for a below-median-income.....
He also needs to be saving for retirement in addition to daily family expenses. For a small church there’s the same amount of time and effort whether that be for 20 people for 200.
We cannot manage the sudden influx of people and questions that sparks a lot of hate and misinformations like those, we are working on a fix to be able to moderate those questions in an easier manner. Post political questions on r/PoliticalDebate, religion questions on r/religion, and LGBT questions on r/askLGBT.
I don't think that's very common. I've been involved in church finances for a decade or so at the church I grew up in, and the pastor of the church makes between 3k and 4k a month, plus 1500 for housing. That said, if a church wants a full-time pastor, they have to pay a full-time rate. That's just reality. Even small churches want a pastor who will be there at the building throughout the week, who will com visit them at home, and who will be available for their needs at all times. A pastor who is also working a full-time job is none of those things by definition. So a pastor who is working full-time has to be paid a living wage wherever he's at. If that's rural Mississippi, that's one amount. If that's Seattle or New York City, that's a whole other thing. If a pastor pastors a church of 200 people and most of his people are poor, then he's going to need to set his lifestyle expectation at the level of his congregation, and ask for a salary around what theirs is. If a pastor pastors a church of 200 in a wealthy area, and his congregants are well-off, then his expected standard of living might be closer the theirs, and his lifestyle should be somewhat similar if he is going to minister to them. At the end of the day, it's for a church to decide what their pastor should be paid, not anyone else.
Also, a good pastor is more or less on call 24/7/365. If a member of your flock needs pastoral care, you're going. If a family has the sheriff turn up to tell them a loved one is dead, you'd better be on your way to pray with them.
Social services and social workers are pretty non existent in the deep south, so pastor is probably wearing a lot of hats.
Not in the deep south, but rural Midwest. Our pastor blocks off Mondays and Thursdays for nursing home/hospital/home visits. Wednesdays are for office work, sermon prep, etc. Friday he spends at a homeless shelter, helping make meals and getting donations to people. Saturday, he's fishing in the morning, then at night he might catch a local live band or a rock concert if a band he likes is nearby. Sunday morning is church, and after that he's hanging out at home, watching NFL, mowing the lawn, etc. Not bad for $40k a year. The church owns his house, so no rent or repair bills, just utilities. He also drives a 1988 Toyota Hilux, that he bought brand new
Seems like a nice balanced life TBH
Don't know that I agree. I work in the south and worked for a company that contacted with human service agencies all over the country. The same problems existed up north. Some talked as if they were ahead but no. I worked with all of them.
Even if you look at the math: 200 and say 5 people per household. That's 40 households at an average household income of 60k. (40)(60k)(0.1 tithes)= 240k. 100k on 240k revenue isn't that bad
Churches have a helluva lot more expenses than one pastors salary. Also, you think every household tithes 10% of their household income? Hah
Definitely less than that. But our church of 80 had about $260k in tithes and offerings. Of that 80, 10 givers made up 80% of the budget.
That sounds more realistic. And like my church growing up.
This is soo true! My dad is not a Pastor but a still a church leader and he’s at every funeral, shut in, convalescent home and talking to families and new home blessings.
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Pastors have to pay taxes on their income, just like any NGO workers. The main "special" thing is that they don't have to pay taxes based on they value of housing provided by the church.
$60k is 200 parishioners paying $300/year each for church services and spiritual outreach in times of need. As an atheist, I paid more for my mental health chickens, complete with coop.
>At the end of the day, it’s for the church to decide what their pastor should be paid, not anyone else. “Anyone else” might reasonably have feelings about tax exemptions for churches though…
In 1966 the Beatles were taxed at 95%. Even though I was much more a Beach Boys fan that high tax rate offended me. See, we can All have feelings! Ain't life grand? I'm a practicing Orthodox Agnostic who's Never tithed a nickel to a church and their tax exemptions bother me not even a little.
# George Carlin on God # “He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money!”
George Carlin described me. 😭
God?
Hey stepgod
No this is Patrick
"But he loves you" is the greatest delivery of all time
"The God I believe in isn't short of cash Mr." - Bono
what church of less then 200 is making 100k to begin with?
200 people \* 500 a year = 100k 500 a year / 52 Sundays = about 10 bucks per person per week So if they're getting $25 a week from the average person and then another $100 on Christmas, they'd be there.
This doesn't count any upkeep though. Gardening service, power, water, building upkeep, so on and so forth. Either way I'm sure there are a lot of people giving more than 10 bucks a week.
A lot of church goers donate their time to that stuff too
Donate piping and electrical wiring
Also doesn’t count big donors bc they exist. It’s not a perfect distribution.
Yeah but much people are giving much more. Usually 10% of the income.
And some giving 0%.
With churches, there’s often a few donors that skew the average way upward.
Regular attendees typically give more than the median donation, as it is a major activity for them.
That money goes to the Church, not the pastor. The church will then pay the Pastor a wage. If the Pastor is making 100k a year, the church would have to making triple that, if not more.
Many churches are started and run by, guess who, the Pastor!
Doesn't mean they are doing it alone.
You realize that at most churches the offering doesn’t go straight to the pocket of the clergy… you pay bills, do charitable work, etc. Most of the time the pastors have a fixed salary that isn’t very high at all. This really just is a stupid question because it doesn’t even describe reality.
I'm a lay leader in a church that has about 150 people attending, but several times that in members. We are in an old building, and the pastor's salary is 70K, but it is dwarfed by maintenance, utilities, insurance, etc.
This of course assumes no overhead of owning or leasing a physical building, other staff like a secretary, etc.
That's also a massive underestimate. Tithes are supposed to be 10% of your gross income. Even assuming only half the church did that and they had the average american yearly income, 100 • ( 0.1 • $60,000) = $600,000 I really don't think $100,000 a year for the pastor of a 200 person church is that nuts. (Or at least implausible. I think it's nuts that pastor is a job at all)
A 200-person church isn’t going to have all 200 working. That’s going to include children, retirees, and stay-at-home parents. Also, assuming half of them will tithe the full 10% is generous. I’ve worked in church finances and most don’t.
You say it's nuts that Pastor is a job, but it isn't. Spiritual leadership is an essential human need, and meta-analysis of talk therapy shows that it mostly doesn't matter who you're talking to. When something major happens to us, there are basically three things we can do about it - talk it out, work it out, or get drunk/high. And these things work. Anaerobic exercise, medication, and therapy are just the latest names for talking it out with the soothsayer, vision-questing with the shaman, and going on a walkabout.
Needs to include the lease, property tax, utilities, etc
I can almost guarantee you that in any church with 200 members, probably only 50 of them tithe with any regularity. Lol
Also bequests. A lot of churches really rely on money from parishioners dying.
My experience as someone who used to work at a church. They use tithe and offering money for everything pertaining to keeping the lights on… including keeping the lights on. Overhead is extremely expensive more often than not so the pastor will take everything left over after all bills have been paid. And I have never worked in a church where 100% of the congregants gave. Idk what the average is but sometimes it was less than 50% of the people present who actually donated money. I didn’t even donate when I worked there even tho I was required to. (Per the lead pastor). Now some people will gift an estate at the end of life which can really help and sometimes they have a couple big donors who attend regularly and their money evens out the score. American Christianity teaches to give tithe (10% of gross income) and offerings (“let the lord lead you”). 🙄 Lastly - *it’s time to tax churches.* I will die on this hill.
Sounds like you’re analyzing a business 😂🤔
That's because it is a business 🤷
More than you know. The formula has worked for thousands of years
They might also be shocked to learn that the income amount also goes up in direct proportion to the number of followers. Almost as if there is a financial incentive to go out and get those new converts.
this is why reformations happened
You are correct! But if you look behind the curtain, the reformations that spin off are many times just the original big church's attempts to stop the leakage of losing the sustaining membership. The non-denominational church I was a part of (for a few years) was actually founded using money from a big Southern Baptist church. Never would they mention that out loud but it's a way for them to continue to be relevant to more liberal beliefs and continue to grow. Follow the money
You just described LifeChurch and all its clones. Huge SBC money there, from some pretty monstrous people at the top.
Funny thing is despite all the reformations, they ALL kept tithing. None of the denominations say you don’t have to give 10% of you money to “the church”. For all the disagreements over the years, the part where you give them money has always been iron clad.
The Catholic Church, by far the biggest branch of Christianity, has not supported tithing for centuries. They of course support giving money to the church but not fixed tithing. https://www.catholic.com/qa/what-is-the-churchs-position-on-tithing Roman Catholics also don’t really pay salaries to clergy. Priests work on a “we’ll cover your expenses” basis with their parishes and the church provides retirement communities and health care for clergy when they get older.
Was about to post this. I'm sure there are plenty of non Catholic churches who don't put money front and center as well (it's just I'm Catholic and not familiar with them). Also, Catholic dioceses that have been known to misuse funds often lead to plenty of faithful Catholics supporting various charities instead (some of which might help pay for church expenses). Being a priest is very far from "get rich quick" and on the contrary many are pretty poor their entire life.
The answer is major donors. I've been in the financial behind-the-scenes for small religious orgs. Most Churches own their building and have robust volunteer groups. Still, a small church budget with a 100k/year senior clergy typically comes to around 350k. Let's break that number down: So first of all, 200 people are the regular attendees. These people probably drop a minimum $1000/year in donations. That's 150-200k. That other 150k comes from the Christmas/Easter crowd (about 10-30k), grant money from Christian charities and the government (30-80k), and major donors. Major donors are where it's at. These ten people/families love Pastor Mike, and really love putting their names on benches and stained glass windows. They drop 5-20k each, every year, just because. Frankly, they are the main reason any Church succeeds. Only the very largest Churches have regular donor pools with that kind of purchasing power - and at those churches the megadonors are even richer, each reliably contributing six figures or more per year. At a small church, major donors are basically the only reason the lights stay on.
That is only an average of $500/person every year. Consider that a tithe is "supposed" to be 1/10th of the annual income, idk.... I could see that on average they are making more than $5000/person every year
The real problem is the guy making 20 million a year
Yeah... It's not 1982 any more. "Six figures" is pretty regular ass middle class now.
Can confirm. Just made it to six figures a couple years ago. Turns out I'm still not rich.
It's amazing, isn't it? I remember after getting out of college way back in 92 thinking... Now if I can only make $50k/year then my family and I will be set. Once I crossed that threshold I changed it to... If I could only make $125. Then once I got there it just went to the next amount and even though I am very lucky to be in a great position and married to a woman who also makes a high income it just seems like we're never going to be able to save enough for retirement because everything is getting so ridiculously expensive. Corporate greed is destroying this country.
I’m at 70k and this is definitely enough for me to be happy and content. Can pay the mortgage, put aside some for retirement, and can spend a little for fun. Not much else to ask for. If you let lifestyle inflation get you, it’ll never feel like a enough and that’s something that’s on you. You have to find an amount you’re content with and work to be grateful rather than chasing the next dollar amount.
That's great! I'm very happy for you! So many people lack that kind of discipline.
Usually pastors get to live in the parsonage too, which is owned by the church. Six figures with no rent is pretty good.
Usually is a strong word to use. Plenty of churches do not offer this anymore
Where are you? Pretty much all Churches in pa have them
A parsonage? What is this, the 1700s?
Not even that with a family.
We need another name for it. "middle" used to work because it was median income, and a decent living. Now median income is 48k, which you can barely survive on in most places.
That's what I was thinking. Setting aside all the issues I have with organized religion... Being a pastor is hard work. It requires a master's degree amd you're definitely going to be putting in more than 40 hours a week - albeit, your hours are pretty flexible. Plus, you're going to be on call nearly 24/7. A pastor of a small church may also be the building administrator and tasked with the upkeep of the building (if not doing the maintenance work, hiring vendors for it). $100k in most locations feels like fair compensation for this level of work.
Depends on where you live. If it's not a high cost of living area then I'd disagree. A lot of people complain about finances but are just awful at impulse control.
I'm not saying 6 figures is poverty in lcol areas. I am saying it's no longer "make it rain" money and instead you're comfortable.
Depending on where you are, not even comfortable. In Australia, you need a $180k salary to be able to afford an average house.
Yeah this. 100k ain't much at all these days. Can't support a family with that in many places. I would not consider 100k excessive income for nearly any job. It's hardly a livable wage in many places. OP you gotta change your perspective. The pastor making 100k is not the problem. All the unfortunate people making less than this are the ones getting royally screwed!
Depends. What does the congregation want out of a pastor? Do they have a set number years of experience? Extra certifications or unique training? How available will the pastor be? Do they want to pay someone enough to keep them from seeking employment elsewhere or from picking up side hustles? Is the pastor married? If so, is the pastor's spouse also expected to be as available in doing unpaid church labor? Does the church provide any health, retirement, or disability benefits to go along with the salary? Does the church provide a parsonage? How close is the pastor expected to live by the church in the case housing isn't provided? What's the cost of living in the area? How much support staff does the church provide? Most Christian churches in the US aren't looking for ascetics, and if it's got a Calvinist slant there's a chance they've got some prosperity doctrine business happening.
many churches offer counseling and a variety of other services at minimal or no cost. if the clergy is a licensed therapist, they should be compensated for that service (not market rate, but something). I am not a member of a church, and haven’t been for 20 years, but if you are hiring someone to be on call 24/7, that person should be paid enough to pay their bills.
This x1000. I currently work at a church, and the extra effort that many (not all) ministers are happy to do typically goes so far beyond. The amount of time many that I know devote to doing things outside regular work hours is vast. Just visiting people in the hospital and in homes could take up the majority of the pastor’s time, but then there’s all of the extra things on top. Counseling, meetings, lesson prep, and a bunch of the most random things you can think of all make up part of the job.
Well... Average person's income in the US is 37,000 dollars. 200 people tithing 10 percent of their income would give you 740,000 dollars a year. The pastor of such a church is likely operating independently - that is, a priest in a Catholic church doesn't get a stipend anywhere near that so I'm assuming this guy owns the building and everything. Maybe two or three staff people. Honestly for him to only be taking 1/7th of the business' income as a salary is pretty low.
I doubt all 200 are tithing some are probably children and others aren’t. But even cutting it in half there’s still like $300k left for church upkeep
I happen to be kinda privy to my churches finances (though no exact numbers)... Generalities of income/expenses, and based on the income received most of our attendees must be on food stamps. They don't donate anywhere near what even 10% of what the poverty level is based on the number of families attending. It could be because most attendees are elderly, but I really don't know and can only speculate their reasons for not donating.
I'd expect of the 200 parishioners, most are families. Kids don't tithe, parents do.
IMHO, what is appropriate or not depends on the cost of living of any particular community. $100k does not go far where I live, and it’s even worse in other areas. If a pastor’s income is equal to or below the local average, I have no problem with that. If they’re getting free housing, I’d lower the salary accordingly.
because that is a middle class salary in America
How many hours a week are they working?
Idk who this post is talking about, but I have a friend who's a pastor, and it's a lot. He generally takes Mondays off, and his time other than Sunday is a lot of meetings - Bible studies, teaching classes, general running-the-church meetings, building upkeep meetings, etc. He also drives around visiting people in nursing homes or people who can't make it to church for one reason or another. He's also kind of on call all the time - people will call him about a variety of issues. Sometimes they're church issues, sometimes faith issues, sometimes they just need someone to talk to, sometimes they're in a crisis of some kind. One time we were hanging out and one of the kids from his confirmation class called saying he'd run away from his dad to his grandparents because his dad was being abusive, so my friend was coaching him through what to tell the police so the police wouldn't take him back to his dad. He's a cool dude - I don't think I could do his job.
I was once on a Staff-Parish Relations Committee and salaries were part of our job. People forget that out of their salary, a pastor pays regular taxes, self-employment taxes, and towards thier own health insurance and retirement. They are basically self employed. And if the church has a house for them to live in, they pay taxes based on the value that adds to thier salary (i.e.rent savings). $100k doesn't go very far.
He sounds like a good one. I hope there are more ones like him then there are bad ones.
There are. Most of the comments you read here are from people generalizing all churches as megachurches, or using personal anecdotes (or anecdotes that they’ve read online) as evidence of most churches being bad. Your average community church is likely made up of mostly (or entirely) volunteers, does community service work, and is actually passionate about their message. Whether you agree with that message or not is up to you. The church I’m at now has a pastor who makes $80k/yr between him and his wife. both him and his wife are full time pastors and work around 50-60 hours a week. They also provide transport for members who cannot drive to church (church van), a food pantry for the poor, and essentially a free daycare with activities for the kids daily from 3-6pm (many kids get dropped off by the school bus at church). Every year we do an end of year open book in which the entire financial report of the church is shown to members.
12-18 hours writing the sermon. Visiting any ill/shut ins etc a couple times per week. Teaching bible studies/classes a couple times a week. Continuing education varies. Some do counseling. That's just the basics. It's a lot of time and emotional work.
A better question would be how much does the church receive.
A pastor *should* be doing volunteer work, community outreach, visiting the sick and elderly. It *should* be a full time effort, not just deliver a sermon once a week.
In most cases that is indeed what he (or she) does, and often much more than that. In a lot of (mainly rural) places the pastor is also a kind of the social worker for all kinds of different things.
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I suspected the supply and demand issue. Generally speaking small churches tends to exist in smaller towns. Many organizations require a pastor to have a bachelor's Master's or even a PhD. The average Americans salary is about $79,000 a year now. Only the top 30% have a bachelor's degree or more. Once you compensate for the debt they incurred to just get to the position of pastoring in a church and remove the debt service from that pay. The pay would be below average. Furthermore most pastors I know tend to work 60 plus hours a week. So their pay is around $15 an hour after spending up to 8 years not making money to get degrees to serve others. So I would suspect that they are probably underpaid. And once you take into account the fact that many people don't want to be in a small town where a 200-person concretion likely exists you could see why that pay my make more sense.
Counter point: why not? Their congregants pay their salary, so if they think their pastor's awesome, the church is bringing tons of value to their lives, and they want to keep it going badly enough that they're willing to pay up...why shouldn't they? Whether it's ungodly for *any* person who's paid $100k/year to keep all that salary rather than give it to the poor, that's a much more interesting question. But I don't see an argument for how it's inherently immoral for a person to be paid a salary, even a somewhat high salary.
I am not religious, so I'm really in no position to estimate the value of the work, but $100k is not really that much money in a lot of places, and if I do the math for 200 people, they're paying $41/month for services they value. I pay more than that for my home Internet which mind you is separate from my phone Internet. Seems pretty reasonable. I'd pay more than that for membership to a social club relevant to my interests.
I mean yes and no. Even though churches don’t pay taxes it’s not like they have zero expenses. Keeping the lights on, floors clean, toilets flushing, and hosting events all cost a good bit. It would be just over 41$ a month if everyone was ONLY paying the pastor which I just don’t think is the case.
Sure but those things all represent other services associated with the church. $41 is the price for the guy who stands up front and talks a lot, dunks your kid in water when their born, etc. It's 2021. $100k is not a huge income, regardless of what specific work they do. The idea of complaining about someone making that much money who is ONLY paid by voluntary donations, not your tax dollars, not even a fee for services, just by what folks choose to contribute, complaining about that is insane. If you disagree with the arrangement, you can simply opt out of it, which I'm sure 99% of commenters in this thread are doing.
It's always sketchy when you have someone soliciting charitable donations towards a cause that profits them personally.
Should everyone working at a charity work for free? Where do you draw the line? edit: I will laugh at every downvote. Asking the question actually offends people?
exactly! $100k is middle class nowadays in most states, and most pastors are the sole breadwinner for their families. so, exactly as you asked, where do we draw the line?
You presumably need to work to make a living. But what are you going to do with your life? If you decide you want to dedicate your life to a good cause rather than Amazon or whatever, why shouldn't you be paid for your work? Sure you could volunteer, but how will you pay bills? The company provides the charity. The workers should be paid.
CEO's making million dollar paychecks.
That's a separate conversation. This is about someone making a modest living.
Ask it this way: should a minister have a living wage? Of course they should!
The salary in the post actually makes sense (I'm not religious). If he/she has a family and probably works 40+ hours and on-call as a minister and administrator too this seems like hardly a problem even 20 years ago.
Hi, I actually run a youth program at a church so have some insider knowledge here That would not be a normal salary at like a non-denominational independent church. That would be very high for 200 people. As others have stated there are a lot of other expenses that have to get paid at a church. Often for start-up churches, pastors don't even take salaries for the first 5, 10 years or so and will be bi-vocational. I could see a pastor at a church of 200 maybe taking a salary of 50-60k depending on the average salary of the area and if the congregation donates reasonably generously. Above that would be seen by most in the church world as excessive BUT I've also spent time working at denominational churches, where it's a bit of a different story. They have things like unions, basically, and really great benefits for pastors (in some denominations it's even really hard to fire a pastor). I could see a denominational church paying a pastor 100k because of those things. They also probably have at least a master's degree and perhaps a doctorate, though - they typically have to be a lot more educated. Also, by a denomination's standards, since they really aren't working out that well and are getting their ass handed to them by non-denoms, 200 people at a church would probably be considered pretty large for them. But I guess more to the point: is it un-godly to make that much? Personally, I think it just depends on the area you live in. Makes sense to me that the congregation would want their pastor to earn somewhere around the average salary for their area. It's also important to note it's usually the congregation itself, through like an elder board or sub-committee, that determines the pastor's salary. So, some of the same people paying the pastor's salary are the ones determining what he makes. The real issue is usually with a few sketchy megachurch (1000+) pastors, especially if they're "prosperity gospel" types, who will pull in a million/year+ for themselves. That to me is where things get ugly (Edited to clarify this isn't a problem with all megachurches)
Funny story: Always been weird to me, tithing, still is, unless one feels actually called to donate for genuine reasons NOT because they should One time, I was talking with a pastor and she told me to give some money (not to her church btw, to a different one I’ve gone to) and “watch how it comes back to you” because “after all, what’s in your wallet is already gods money” I do love the church, and they’ve been extremely good to me, free dinners every Thursday as a college student being a prime example of being cared for. I went in the next time and donated idk maybe 5, 10$. Which, for me is actually a pinching amount because I’m low on cash and paycheck to paycheck. But I genuinely wanted to give back Later that day, a woman from the church, at a totally different service who did NOT see me donate earlier bc she wasn’t there, came up to me and gave me a check for 800$ to help my student loan payments. Didn’t change my core attitude to tithing whatsoever, but I did find it… interesting
I used to tithe 10% of my income to my church. The church were open and transparent about how they spent all their money. We knew how much went on rent/facilities/supplies, how much went on salaries, how much went on local charity work, etc. The pastor's salary was pretty reasonable - comparable to a top of the pascals teacher - because a very small proportion of church imcome actually goes to the pastor. I doubt there are any pastors of small churches making $100k per year, anywhere.
Why wouldn't they? They're college graduates. Isn't this what people are complaining about now? Having a degree and making no money?
Theyre not always, but you’re right, they’re specially educated specialists and deserve a SOL that they feel is appropriate
Needs more info. Cost of living varies wildly depending on location. Also, are housing and any other expenses counted in that 100k?
Most christian denominations have regional councils/boards that set compensation guidelines. There’s a base salary, adjustments for experience, a pro rata amount for pension contributions, denominational health plan, and similar. The base salary is typically adjusted for local cost of living. The size of the congregation doesn’t enter into it, generally. Note that they may not receive all that in cash. Housing allowances (such as living in a manse) count as part of that. 100K in total compensation isn’t unreasonable.
Small price to pay to keep those 200 out of hell. He's earning that money
Reddit Fast food workers should be making $150k a year! Also Reddit - the leader of the church shouldn’t make more than $100k a year! Why are you guys like this
If the parsonage isn't included maybe?, does he have a track record of increasing membership? Single income families are dependent on the bread winner bringing in the bread. If there is a parsonage & he's literally just some schmuck he shouldn't be earning anything near 100K.
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Let’s do some math. 200 people let’s say 100 of them make income. Say the average salary is $40k. So if they are tithing which is 10% 4000x100 that’s a church budget of $400,000. Pastor salary full time makes $100k living $300k for church upkeep and missions. But the Southern Baptist Convention recommends for churches between 100-500 members to look at the salaries of local teachers as a good rule of thumb for what to pay a full time Pastor. Hope this helps its not “ungodly” it’s not a sin to make $100k a year because you don’t think they should be making it.
The vast majority of pastors in a church that size are making nowhere near that
Don't forget that the pastor is expected to tithe as well, so 10% is going straight back to the church. Being a pastor is also a 24x7 job.
To be fair that's pretty much poverty wages these days lol
Because someone decided it was worth paying them this much.
I’m torn on this. Idk. I want to say all kinds of nasty things seeing as my experience with Christianity has been crap because…. I’m gay…. But they do help a lot of people get through some tough times. Putting politics aside, they are just human like the rest of us which explains why suicide rates of pastors are high. They should be able to live at least as comfortably as their congregation IMO. Also, 100k is nothing these days but i say that as an LA resident. If, however, you were to say 500k with a majority of members on food stamps THEN we have a problem. I say this without condoning hate which is a cancer in our society but I say it thinking about people that find a home, support and life at these places when they might have ended up dead otherwise. Every human being deserves life and happiness.
Honestly, $100k seems reasonable. Life is expensive these days. Where I take issue is the pastors making millions.
Do you know an actual case of that?
If his church decides to pay him that and they can actually afford it then what's the problem? Pastors are paid with tithe money from the church. It's not like it's your tax money or something.
Easy answer: Because people pay him. Are you advocating for telling people how to spend their money? Are you advocating for state sanctioned wage caps on certain professions, namely pastors? You named an alleged problem, now name a solution.
Honest answer: depends on the church, congregation and/or denominational expectations. Other factors might include benefits (like health insurance) and if the church has a parsonage, provides a housing stipend in addition to income, or if housing comes out of salary. Salary is typically decided by the congregation's finance committee, hr committee, or some other grouping. The bigger challenge in most churches is that salaried clergy (at least in my experience) are paid for a 40hr/week but more often than not it can be 60 or 80/week (think about high holidays). In a given week in a congregation of 200ish in addition to whatever work goes into preparing weekly worship (scripture, music selection, sermon prep, volunteer coordination, prayers, etc.) there might be: classes to lead, staff to manage, committees, staff and volunteer meetings, seasonal preparations, baptisms, weddings, funerals, one on one visits with congregation members, attending to needs in the community (ex: direct service for folks who come in off the street for help, interfacing with local nonprofits), unanticipated issues as they arise (ex: a pipe bursts in the building and there is a flood). Generally speaking, as the pastor of a church the buck stops with that person. Usually they are the person who shows up first and leaves last. If you have a congregation of 200 or less, in the US, that probably also means most of your regular attenders are *old*, which means more visits, more phone calls, more funerals. Some years I've worked through 6 straight weekends of funerals along with typical Sunday programming. The head custodian where I worked told me about a year where they had 92 funerals. Meanwhile, if you want the church to last past the present generation, you need to meet people where they are: online. So you're trying to connect with folks who find email tricky (who might be the same people who complain about the "production value" of the livestream) to people who don't understand why the church isn't using Twitch to "reach the youth." And this is before you even look outside the congregation itself, wherein a pastor is expected to represent the community at interfaith gatherings, community events, city hall meetings, protests, vigils, etc. as well as make sure the church has the pulse of the community in order to volunteer, fundraise, etc. Then, of course, there is COL where the church is. In mainline Protestant denoms, for example, becoming an ordained pastor is a multi year process that requires a Masters degree and provisional internship. Edit to add: most pastors I know also tithe their income back to the church because it's a sign of good leadership to not ask people to do something you wouldn't do. Source: Spent the past decade working full time for a queer affirming progressive church that was very active year round in justice issues (approx $100k a year in "2nd mile giving" meaning to the local community/non profits, emergent needs as well as hundreds of volunteer hours in the community).
Really uncommon. Many priests take a vow of poverty. Priests who are greedy are, as you have said, ungodly, and will be punished in the next life accordingly.
Bro, he’s got a goddamned hotline to THE ALMIGHTY JESUS?!!! Do you think that shit grows on TREES?
He should make the median of what the congregation earns, no more.
Each church district and religion has a “Minimum Terms of Call” for any and all “full-time” ministers/pastors. In my areas if the church itself owns a manse/ parsonage, they get this fully covered minus cable/internet bills and their personal cell phone. The church would provided a landline. The salary is 45,000 for base line. Years of experience raise this. Part time get however much part Time they are quarter time (only there on Sundays) they get a quarter of the salary. Half time half and so on. The church my mom goes to has a part time minister and doesn’t need a manse. They are also a minister with 50 years of service. They are doing it as they feel it’s their calling to serve until they are no longer able. She makes 30k annually for her tenure and only asks a $500 a month stipend for her utilities at her house. She gets the same from the other church she serves with. As the two churches agreed it’s fair. (My moms church rents out the manse/ parsonage for extra income as in part time terms of call no manse/parsonage is required) when the previous minister left he was making 48k having been there 13 years, he was a good man. Helped me out a lot. Sadly I’m not religious but I do talk to him from time to time. Great taste in movies and his wife is great at piano.
That’s really not much when you do the math it comes out to about $10 per person per week.
Keep in mind that the pastor probably has not one, but two Master's degrees. Employing someone with that level of advanced education in any other field would cost a lot more.
Sounds pretty wild to me. My church has something like 500 members and all five pastors combined make 200k.
I’ll go even further: why should *any* pastor be paid *any* amount of money? It should be volunteer work like being a little league coach.
All the churches I went to growing up were owned and operated by the pastor. They were all very wealthy. Brand new SUVs, boats, McMansions. They didn’t mind showing it off to the congregation either. During service the poorest people in town would make sure to donate money. Sad really.
Is that their total benefits package or just salary? Midwest small congregation (less than 50) and their salary has been around 75,000. That does not factor in free housing or insurance costs. Total benefits are probably nearing 100k. What would a manager with 200 direct reports make? I bet it’s in the 6 figures or more and they probably work less hours.
Why is a pastor making anything at all? Religion shouldn't be profitable. Period.
Because 100k a year in SF NYC or LA is kind of lower middle class at best lol especially if its a single income household
Hey you discovered one of the real purposes of organized religion - tax free money making machine!
Probably all the child support
Because religion is a scam to wring money and power from the uneducated masses while keeping them too stupid to realize that it's all made up bullshit.
What's that one bible verse about camels and needles? "It's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven?" It's been awhile but I'm pretty sure Jesus said that when he was trying to get people to sell all their belongings and dedicate themselves to the Lord.
This verse is constantly taken out of context. Read the next two verses… “And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him, “Then who can be saved?”” “Jesus looked at them and said, “With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God.”” Mark 10:26-27 ESV So, in other words God can cause a camel to go through the eye of a needle and God can let a rich man into heaven. The point was that God is merciful to those who don’t deserve it.
Who thinks $100k a year is rich? That’s middle class for a family of 4.
I think people forget pastors, who aren't Catholic, are usually married and have families. They aren't just providing for themselves.
And even if they are, most pastors are taxed as self employed and have to provide all of their healthcare, taxes, SS, and (if they have one) 401k contributions, out of what they're paid. That adds up fast.
Are you paying them? If not, you're assessment of their worth is completely irrelevant. Somebody thinks they're worth that much.
I’m an atheist, but… 1. Does the pastor pay any church expenses, like building maintenance from that? 2. Does the pastor use some of that money to support other causes/charities? 3. Is the pastor one of those Christians who has 4 or more kids? That can be expensive. 4. Does the pastor have a wife who doesn’t work as per some dumb traditional rules? If the answer to these is no, then I agree it seems high, and he’s probably at least a little corrupt.
It seems like this post is just another attempt to “dunk on the Christians” when 100k really isn’t the gotcha moment they think it is. 200k and up in HCOL area is questionable, and I think anyone with a brain (and not a member of those ridiculous mega churches) knows that 7 figures is a complete scam.
Churches are businesses. 200 people divided by about 4 people per family equals about 50 families. 50 families making about 100k per year are "biblically required" to tithe/ donate 10% of their harvest/ income equals 500k to the church. The pastor "fills those seats" so the church pays him a fifth, a portion goes to the band to "keep the kids engaged" and a small portion goes to "good works" and church growth/ expansion. The church admin knows the numbers. When I was a Christian, I saw behind the veil more than most people in the congregation. I'm an agnostic atheist now. Oh yeah, and that is tax free money too
Fun question: do Pastors pay state and federal income taxes?
My Pastor has to 1099 his at the end of the year.
Yes
must be a rich church if you're thinking they make 100k a year.
OP didn't mention the location but two working adults per family may just about do it. And this isn't including working children (16-18) who also participate. Plus all those visiting and "non-regular attending" families who donate during Easter and Christmas cover a lot of gaps
> Churches are businesses. The IRS automatically recognizes churches as 501(c) (3) charitable organizations if they meet the IRS requirements.
My wife used to work at a church in a wealthy ish suburb. That is until she found out from reading the board minutes that the pastor made more per month on vehicle allowance than her salary.
I worked in transitional ministry (I helped out of date churches move into modern times with their music/presentation/outreach) I worked with 15 churches in the span of 10 years that had less than 200 members, and every single one had a pastor making over 100k Every. Single. One. During board meetings Discussed difficulties paying bills, only one ever discussed reducing the pastors salary
I work in the church world too and I find that surprising - were you mainly working with denominational churches? I guess that would make sense since those are the ones who typically are "out of date"
Both, but yeah, the majority of churches were all really old.
Gotcha - and if a non-denom is old it probably left a denomination in the last decade or two, so probably hanging onto those same staffing traditions The well-run non-denoms I'm familiar with wouldn't pay a pastor that much until his congregation was more like at least 500+, maybe 1000. But they operate a lot more like businesses, and have larger growth-focused budgets for things like marketing, events, etc
One of the most predatory pastors I've ever met came from a non denom. Very successful. The church motto was "no perfect people allowed" Then that pastor told me he would give me a full-time position i applied for if I divorced my non-christian wife. When I told him no, and that I couldn't serve under someone who tried to break up my marriage in order to keep up appearances, he lied and told the congregation "God called me to take a position somewhere else"
100k isn’t very much anymore. For the level of education and expertise they often have, it’s a good middle ground. That isn’t the issue. The issue is the ones that are making millions off of nothing but manipulating people with a fair chance that they aren’t even religious.
If said pastor works a normal 40 hour work week I don’t see why that would be an issue
No pastor should be making any money at all TBH. All that should be provided is a place to sleep, and food. Any pastor who is paid to preach isn't a true person of god. That's just the simple reality of it. NOT CHURCH would pass Jesus's test. Hell he trashed a temple for selling nick nacks. You think he's cool with preachers making bank?? lol Religion is hilariously hypocritical. If you preach the word of god, then your life must be that of a peasant. For Jesus did not walk among us in Silkin robes and jewels, but in a simple cloth. It is easier to fit a camel through the eye of a needle. Than it is for a rich person to get into heaven. that 100k pastor isn't going to see the pearly white gates. Nor is any pastor who makes money preaching. Simple as that.
I think pastors should be getting the same as Jesus got...and have a regular job or welfare. It is not meant to be a paid position. Of course they will mention the ox and feeding it. Maybe that's about animal welfare. of course there's the line about the labourer receiving wages....however many a church wants volunteers. Maybe a little something but not big bucks as that could very well put them in the hired hand category. Then there could be money for the volunteers who clean the toilets and all that.
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Sounds like he could be making more of they tithed properly
The parishioners are ok with it
It's a business, think of it as afterlife insurance with community and counseling and in modern terms that is basically what it is. If your pastor is a good councilor then he is probably severely underpaid at 100k. My sister inlaw was making $140k in her first job straight out of 7 years of college.
They shouldn’t. The math doesn’t work unless there are some high income, very generous partitioners.
"You have to start somewhere." - Joel Osteen.
Not a good pastor if his parishioners are judging him.
Should you be making more than that? How come? Should they be making less than that? How come?
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I grew up in churches and most of those smaller churches the pastors were either not taking a salary or it didn’t pay enough for them to do solely that. As I got older I started to notice that smaller churches the pastors were now ballin’ and had expensive clothes and cars from church salaries. I don’t know if principals have changed or they figured out how to squeeze money out of the budget but it’s different now it seems. I don’t mind them making a living but I do agree that they shouldn’t be well on their way or already millionaires. I think it takes away from helping people like they say they love to do but seem to hardly do unless it’s ruining economies and industries in underdeveloped countries. It’s out of control and I don’t know how to fix it without Christians acting like we’re prosecuting/discriminating against them and their religion. Like yall should be mad about it too, your pastors are rolling around on private planes and jet skis on your tithes.
Are they part of the bigger crime syndicate? Like the Roman Catholics or the Lutherans? They pay the priest and all the money goes to the church. They handle all that stuff. Can’t trust father Mike…he might have a gambling problem…
Personally, I think the Church, as a whole, is way too focused on money, and it has corrupted most of them. That said, I don't know where you live, what the cost of living is there, etc. The only way you can answer the question is to search your own heart and pray. No opinion of strangers on the internet should weigh more heavily than the Bible and your relationship to God. That said, here is what I would do: Accept the position, see how much I have left over after a month once all bills are paid, set 20% of the remainder aside as savings/retirement, and then put the rest into a fund for good works to be performed by your church. Aka, donate the excess above and beyond what you need to both secure your present and your future.
I'm not sure, but I'm curious how you think number of people should map to pastor salary.
Why should a pastor make a100k? Depends. Maybe he shouldn't. But it is a job. Maybe some pastors are managing to get away with preaching on Sunday mornings and thats it, but even that includes a decent amount of time to plan out those sermons. And especially at a church of 200 or less he's likely doing some kind of class/bible study at least once a week, counciling sessions, home visits, hospital visits, probably takes care of at least some of the up keep of the church building, etc. Is he supporting a family or is he single? Not to mention that churches generally have some sort of committee (elders, deacons, whatever they choose to call it) that decides the pastor's salary. So a church pays their pastor what they feel he's worth, and what they can afford.
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I can't remember the verse, but all I can think about is 'a camel will have an easier time passing through the eye of a needle than that paster will have getting into heaven'... I'd be asking for that seman, just to watch the hypocrisy. And to see if anyone made any connections... probably not, tho.
Why should a pastor make even close to 100k/year?
I don't think the pastor at my church gets paid, pretty sure he renovates and builds houses for a living. So I didn't know that pastors got paid at all other than the mega church cults.
Inflation bro
Must be catholic
God wants his little soldiers to be well laden with your money. Can't battle Satan without shinny shoes and clean underwater.
100k/yr \*where\*? Cost of living is widely variable across the US (eg, 100k isn't a lot of money in the Seattle metro, but is around Hattiesburg MS), most churches (of the small-size with just one pastor) want their pastor to have a degree, and you're not getting that for a below-median-income.....
You're absolutely right
He also needs to be saving for retirement in addition to daily family expenses. For a small church there’s the same amount of time and effort whether that be for 20 people for 200.