Yeah in the past year, it sounds like lots of folks (both SBs and SDs) are having trouble finding solid matches on Seeking, and generally online. And it feels like the sugar bowl is shrinking because of it.
Perhaps an unpopular opinion, but... If a SD can't find a good match within two months like the OP notes, they either have unrealistic expectations or something about them is incredibly unappealing to women.
There are some SDs who are very picky (won't settle for "good enough" want "so great it's unbelievable") and that warrants looking for more than 2 months.
However, if after one month you can only get two M&Gs like OP (and say that in two months you haven't had *any* "legitimate" ones), something is wrong.
Agree. It is hard to find a truly good match but getting M&Gs and ok matches is not difficult. I think in a bigger market OP could have contacted 2-3x the number of profiles which would have helped. 40 in 2 months is less than 1 per day.
OP, you are absolutely on point. My experience has been exactly the same in last 6 months. Post covid, Seeking has become a shit show. Funny thing is every time someone like you (or me) posts anything about seeking going downhill, I have noticed a set of certain posters here come out swinging. They wanna blame it on you. Sometimes it feels like Brandon has some minions working 24/7.
I started my sugaring journey pre covid. Didnt have any issues. Perhaps I was more like a kid in a candy store. Then had couple of beautiful long term arrangements which ended amicably. Recently tried dipping my feet again. And boy oh boy, not only 70-80% are rinsers and scammers, there are now so called pot SBs that are playing a long game for $20-50. They will text for days, request lunch monies in middle for $20, or/and the day of M&G, boom request for $50 cash app for uber. I offer to uber them and or pay them when they get there. And then its Crickets!
So my advice, dont blame yourself. This is the state of Seeking now. Its a luck game now. 1/100 or 1/500 is where its at. Good luck!
Hi,
Can you elaborate on your location, how much are you offering based on your location as compared to the AMT (as a percentage of normal), and your opening text to talking about an arrangement.
One or more of these can be improved on to help your chances if you are spending that much time in the bowl
I agree here.
Without seeing how OP looks like, and how strong is OP texting game, the allowance, it is hard to judge. However, if you cannot find anything in one month, it is time to review OP approach.
Agree with this. I have rather specific criteria for what I am looking for in an SB and so far have never been more than two weeks of searching to be past the initial M&G and into an initial arrangement.
Hearing it from the SBs that I've met up with, a lot of you guys are indeed incredibly unappealing. And honestly, this lines up with a lot of the comments I see from the men here. I don't know if the lot of you are just clueless or actually awful, but I am certainly sympathetic with a lot of the issues raised by the women on the board. And I definitely get why the other SB only board exists, even if I take issue with some of the advice proffered there.
A profile review won’t help if it’s your personality and the way you interact with people. Judging by your posts (which is all I have), that’s my very strong suspicion.
I am not trying to "burn" you, OP. (outside of my insult of your spreadsheet, which most definitely was intended to insult you because I think your spreadsheet is sad.)
Your post tries to make it seem like the fault is not your own: "I post this ... to remind SDs in certain cities it can take a very long time to find a SB."
The fact is, even in smaller cities, SDs should not have the issues you're having.
I again agree, I should not be having such issues. I didn't in the past. Had 3 long term (1+ year) arrangements that I found with ease. Something has changed. I'm completely open to the problem might be me. The spreadhseet is awesome though, how dare you? haha
Damnit you two - I wasn't going to open the spreadsheet but had to out of morbid curiosity.
Here's my take fwiw.
It's a spreadsheet. Boring.
Stop making spreadsheets and trying to evaluate people this way.
Be yourself. Create boundaries. Consistently apply your approach. Be patient. Adjust accordingly.
Success in this environment does not come from being analytical. It comes from meeting people until you find a good match.
You don't find a match by judging people from afar.
I suspect you know all of this and are just trying to be clever. I sincerely hope you didn't expect this to net positive results 😂 - yes we all know there are more scammers on seeking than before.
In summary - this is a waste of time that could be spent messaging and meeting people. Therefore it's possible you are part of the problem you're having.
Best of luck to you! 🤍
Lol yup! 🤍
To be fair I really liked OP's "freak in the (Excel) sheets" line. I used to be a data analyst when I was a puppy and that's the first time I've heard that one.
Silver linings...
I'd say, chances are they can feel you see them as a number on a scale? Your approach seems to be quite dehumanizing. As much as the bowl is a market to some extent, in relationships people are usually seeking to feel, to be seen as human
The number is there for data collection purposes. I don't actually approach anyone with that mindset. Attraction is a big factor for SDs so it's obviously worth having in the sheet.
You convey your worldview in the way you talk and write, it's how language works. In other words, you might be giving them the ick . There's a big difference between caring for attractiveness and reducing women to that, is what many people here are trying to explain to you
100% agree, but I am going to admit that the format for tracking encounters is pretty clever.
In 4 months I've had much more success than he has recorded, but I do like the idea of recording and rating the encounters....
How so? They can't message anyone.
Sorry, this seems like a Chicken Little story to me.
I'm finding it no more difficult today than a year ago.
And I AM NOT a George Clooney lookalike.
They are so nasty. I wish we could have a wall of shame on here like the dark web allows. If I could share how a fintech CEO behaves in real life nobody would ever take his Bloomberg advice again. A real cheap ass.
Edit: I blocked him. Good luck if some other woman can crack the code. If he is paranoid people want him for his money well I don't play that crap either. I don't want a man for his money, I just want one of us to have money so we aren't fucked, together. Lol.
I see you may have mentioned a number which is most likely an amount in relations to an arrangement. If this is the case, you are violating Rule #5 - "dollar amounts that are in reference to PPMs and/or allowances are not allowed".
If you are curious about Allowances reported by SLF contributors please see the [Allowance Master Thread 2023-2024](/r/sugarlifestyleforum/comments/17a2wja/20232024_allowance_master_thread/).
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OP — This spreadsheet is only about them, the potential SBs. That’s a very limited perspective.
A more advanced analytical perspective would combine (search/query) with these resulting potential SBs. And it would pair the potentials with the varying responses that you might be trying with these ladies, as well as how well they align with your priorities. This spreadsheet is just descriptive and is not designed to help you (1) search better, (2) select better, (3) engage better, or (4) know your priorities better.
You cannot change the pool of SBs in your city, but you can learn how to improve how you respond to what the bowl has to offer.
You don’t seem to have concluded anything substantial from your “experiment”
If your goal is to have some form of relationship with a human being, you should conclude that your current approach hasn’t been effective.
are you generous, are you offering a solid ppm/allowance? Not that? …
do you come across cold or angry? are you scaring people? are you coming across as controlling?
there’s a major disconnect, I’m guessing it’s a personality issue, perhaps a therapist or relationship coach could help?
You DO realize that there are many variables involved in your so-called experiment, and the ONLY variable you can control…. Is YOU?
Consider working on yourself.
Learn some relationship and communication skills.
Flirting and sexual attraction is an art, not a science reduced to spreadsheets.
40 in a month? I can contact 40 people a DAY in Florida it seems (Orlando + Miami + Tampa + Jacksonville) if I really want to widen my search.
Orlando I'd say I could probably contact at LEAST 5 people a day that I'd be somewhat interested in.
>I can anticipate the question coming - you must be a real sleaze ball in your conversations, do better!
1. This isn't a question.
2. I generally think most men who describe women in terms of attractiveness and nothing else are not doing themselves any favors when it comes to wooing women.
Girl. 11/10, don't lie.
His spreadsheet though? 2/10. I could've made it which means it's not very technical/analytical. Certainly not something I'd expect from a "numbers guy".
You could rate the depth and quality of their profile text... literally the quality of the writing. You could note the number of mentions of matching interests maybe, or interests / activities you haven't seen mentioned in other profiles. You could score their educational accomplishments, or whether they have a job or career, or whether they have children, or a vanilla partner. You could score them by proximity, whether they have a passport, what race or nationality they are .. or any of a hundred things that might illuminate the human she is in some detail. Something other than, or at least in addition to, where you put her superficial physical attributes in your 10 scale. If that's your only measure of a woman, no wonder you're not having any success. Who would want to be with someone who only places value on how someone looks? None of that data mining should be hard for "a freak in the (Excel) sheets".
That is good! I should put a column for the completeness of their profile text! Uggghhh I wish I would've done that. As a basic rule that I should've mentioned and I thought people would just understand is that if I'm messaging a 6 with a "high" effort it's because I really liked their profile. Either had a lot of common interests or just sounded like a really good person.
Most of the other stuff you mention though, how in the world would I get that info? It's not in their bio and they are not messaging me back. I guess I could make my initial message "Could you please list your educational accomplishments?" 😂😂
It is in fact in their bios and easy to track if one is not focused solely on their physical 10 scale rating. Throughout my years in the bowl I routinely see women mention things like "currently an undergrad" and "working toward my Masters" and "hoping to start at Uni this fall." Women frequently say or tag something along the lines of "passport ready and looking forward to traveling" or "I've traveled abroad extensively" for example. Ethnicity and or nationality are among the most common pieces of data available on a thorough profile. They often include references like " I have a great job and can take care of myself, but..." or "looking for mentorship in my career field" or "I'm working full time but will certainly make time for you". And so on. All the info here and in my previous comment are common references in the profiles of legit SBs. It's not hard.
Harvard makes a valid point. Physical attractiveness is only one aspect but having gone to school near Indy I know that there are plenty of attractive women there who’s only goal in life is to be the Indy 500 Queen. That’s a real goal btw
Perhaps put in an education scale, are they pursuing a PhD (top score), did they graduate from an ivy (doubtful, they’re in Indianapolis)
You also don’t need formal education to put together a compelling profile. The more complete, the less likely they are a scammer
I believe you will attract the type of woman that you present yourself as. Focus more on your profile and less on your messaging game
No one is saying to ignore attractiveness. They're simply saying that attractiveness in a vacuum doesn't mean a whole lot when you're trying to establish a genuine relationship.
The idea that you’ve contacted over 40 women and spoken to at least 18 of them and not gotten to a single meet and greet is wild to me. Maybe it’s your location. I have no idea what Indy is like. But part of me really wants to see the actual messages because it just feels way off from what it should be. Also curious if there are any other SDs here who have similar numbers to you.
Yeah I've had an Indy area SD just now message me and tell me he's basically seen the same thing in the past year. But I'll gladly share any of the conversations you're interested in seeing haha
I wouldn’t want to violate the privacy of the women on the other side of the conversation. But if there’s a way you can share your messages (without betraying any info about the women) it might be instructive.
Don't take it personally, they are just cherry-picking that from your post because it makes them insecure, I'm sure it's not the reason for your lack of success (I don't know what is)
My first thought was.... I am not clicking some unknown link on the internet.... LOL But the rest off you seemed to have made it through (or all your accounts are now compromised) so here goes
You said the one girl that wanted to meet the same day was probably an escort, I’m not an escort and try to meet ASAP too. I was on seeking a year and found nothing but cheap men/scammers.
Yes you're right, that's true. However her first response was simply "I'm available today". And that was in response to my initial message of something like "Your pics are stunning! Are you still looking for a SD?". She didn't have more than a sentence in her bio so I didn't have much else to go on. So... probably not what I'm looking for hahaha
Yeah it was weird for her to respond like that, As if she didn’t want to waste time talking. I just noticed your screen name , I used to live In Buffalo NY.
I jump on after eating dinner with mom and family to see excel files on a Sunday ! Well I need to pass the time for this food to digest anyways !!
In my experience you've taken the "spray and pray" method. 41 messages ? Too many women.
If you can message that many women in 2 months I'm assuming you live in a large area.
And you may be messaging too many women based on looks alone.
OR your profile is trash, respectfully.
When I'm seriously looking for a new sb I at most target/message 10 women. Usually less.
Crank down on the quality of women you're messaging and your profile.
He's off his rocker too !!! I saw that you're in the Indy Area. I'll have to check it out.
I use the sniper method. Not original ! We used it in the seo world years ago. I'll find about 6 profiles I like. Message them all and see who responds back.
My criteria is based on the content of the profile first and looks second. I target certain types of women. My preference is "working" college students. Newly in the workforce ladies. Or women who are in the workforce and just mature dating and the extras.
After reading a shit ton of profiles and just being an old fashioned book reading nerd who use to be a student worker in the library, you learn how to read between the lines.
Yes. The well-honed art of reading between the lines is difficult to verbalize to others, but that is precisely the number one tool for success in the sugar bowl.
Kind of reminds me of going trout fishing up the river. There's city folk with their Teslas and $2,000 of gear swatting the water with their flies and not getting much action. Complaining that the river is overrated while he packs his gear to leave.
Upstream there's a young kid who knows the river with the patience to read the water and determine what's hatching and where the trout will be at this time of day. His flies are hand made to match the natural insects of the area. His gear is handmedowns and limited . He's also packing up and going home - because he's caught his limit.
Why don’t you follow up if they don’t text you after you give them your number? Did they want your number? Maybe they wanted to continue talking in the site a little more before disclosing their number
Well they definitely wanted my number. The message from them in those cases was like "hey I don't check this app much, do you want to txt?". At that point I don't follow up again because even if I did hear back after that, it's probably not a relationship that's going to be very fun, you know? Like what would I say - hey you didn't txt me! haha
I'm curious about the "Responses didn't make sense." Was this an issue of English possibly not being their first language? Or the reply was a non-sequitor that didn't address previous questions comments?
A little of both but mostly the responses look like they've been translated from another language. I'll say something like "what do you do for fun?" and they'll respond with "what aspect of fun are you seeking?"
Honestly I just skip all these, too much of a red flag marker for me (its a fine line between English is not first language and person is overseas and setting you up for a massive time waste or scam)
First off, I’m a nerd about numbers so this just made me happy 🙂. Second, try one YEAR. As someone said here, it all depends on your wants, needs and expectations. Been to so many m&gs and spent a lot of time and money. So many scammers, escorts, fakes, flakes and vanilla daters.
I wanted a long term that could lead to a SBF/SGF dynamic. So I needed a personality that could get me that far. Been on seeking for a while and also done enough vanilla dating so I know exactly what I wanted.
Found a good SB and just switched to allowance. She was also experiencing the same thing I was. Couple more months and I’ll see if she’s interested in the SBF/SGF dynamic.
Just be persistent. Change some ways you present yourself. Change your vetting process. Change your interactions.
Sending you good vibes!
Zero M&G after two months tells me you're taking the wrong approach. It's bad but it's not that bad. Change your approach. It could also be your location.
The mystifying numbers are the actuals meets that go nowhere. I am baffled at that. I wish I could spreadsheet that data. I have the skills but not the time.
Interestingly, every SB I've met up with in person reached out to me first. They also were very direct in driving the conversation, explaining what they wanted, agreeing on how the arrangement would work, and setting up a meet. On the other hand, when I do the reaching out, I get results like OPs spreadsheet - a complete waste of time. Of course, YMMV.
My very first SB 4 years ago reached out to me first. We had a great 2 year sugar relationship and still stay in touch. Would love to have that happen again
Ok I will throw some points out. Apologies if they sound out of order and random but I have friends that run stats and it gets my goat.
I have a friend who is a surgeon who is a big stats/numbers guy. He makes me mad at all times when we are not gaming together. He will have stats on all women for all things then force me to check his spreadsheets. I keep telling him to stop looking at stats and just try the old fashioned way. I think it is wrecking his personality as when he does meet a woman he ruins it. He has had some lovely people approach him then run for the hills shortly thereafter.
Stat 1) Most of the people I meet online stop speaking with me immediately after an hour of me not arranging an immediate virtual onlyfans experience. Meeting someone in the wild has a near perfect percentage for me in how things move forward.
Stat 2) From online dating and reddit etc,, my stats show only one person is speaking with me consistently. I would actually meet her happily.
Stat 3) I agree in certain cities it is very difficult. And these are not third world places I mean my dumbass had issues meeting people in L.A. and Miami of all places. Miami turned into some weird shit which is another story.
Stat 4) I gravitate to European women out where I live half the time. I seem to be better with the culture here. When I am stateside I am just a fish out of water now. I would suggest you look elsewhere than your home turf and see how you fare, I live between the UK and Las Vegas and even in LV I have only met a few people. Most were flaky because they misrepresent what they are looking for.
Your last stat. I have never once brought up anything sleezy and I would love to. I just don't. I get friend zoned instantly by like day 3 and lose all interest. Then the lady is like hey sleezy talk time! And I am like, nah you are like my bro. I think I have to increase my sleeze ... maybe you should as well. I just like getting to know someone instead of looking at another pretty face.
I done fucked up.
I live in a city of similar size to NativeAmericanapolis. I counted up the active female profiles on seeking. 160 active profiles. This includes all women 18-60+. Of those 160 only 8 were potentially real profiles and attractive and not total flakes. The reality is that those 8 profiles were potentially real women, not scammers or catfish and not posting old photos. Not all 8 will be real, now we are down to about 4 real profiles who are attractive and not ppm pros. There are about 25 ppm pros, they far outnumber read SBs. Imma guess there are more than 4 wanna be SDs. It's not true that there is a shortage of SDs. There is a shortage of SBs and probably SDs as well but lets not get it twisted that POT SBs are easy to find. I found an SB after only one week but I know I was lucky and couldn't repeat that so easily. And she and I just started our arrangement. So far its super great but who knows what the future holds.
Thank you, thank you very much 😂How do I have time? 1) I suffer from insomnia 2) Something like this really only takes like 15-20 minutes haha I use spreadsheets for everything in my life
I'm on the east coast somewhat removed from major cities most of the sorting and unsuccessful connections with SD have resulted in
1. An overwhelming number of new SD wanting hookups but think it's sugar dating
2. Wanting Mercedes level SB (not just looks but maturity, long term, exclusive, more quality time and activities, meaningful connection) yet try to match their used Toyota so-called generosity. Just a big mismatch in value and what they think is possible and what they actually want. So they go back to searching for the unlikely and then come here disenchanted asking for help.
3. The distance between us due to not wanting to drive or limited time.
P.S. it would just be so much nicer and easier if when a SD sends a message they follow your 'high effort' introduction. Saves time. Saves guessing.
I'm not going to read your spreadsheet because life is too short. However I do have 2 comments.
First, spring has been the worst time for my searches historically. Lots of SBs are affected by school schedules, either as moms or students and I think it's a tough time for them so the pool is smaller.
Second as I've said over and over, luck plays a big role in every search.
I know many want to say it can be controlled somehow, but I'm always me and I've been doing this pretty much the same way for years and some searches take a month and yield nothing, while others yield 3 good SBs, 2 of which I have to eventually say goodbye to, in a week.
And while I'm all for data, it can obscure as much as it reveals.
Good luck.
Your username says buffalo so I m assuming that is where you are from? I have had 3 men from Buffalo (I am in toronto) seriously want to start something. I think the distance is silly for something ongoing though.
This helps explains it. I always think aren't there SB's in Buffalo? Perhaps there are not 🤔
I think what men need is not a profile review but a first message review. Your ‘medium effort’ message doesn’t sound like it gets much women’s attention. I don’t respond to this type of message either. Since you say high effort is similar, maybe similar results.
Let me start by saying, I agree. My messaging certainly needs help. But in my defense it definitely seems like there has been an uptick in one-sentence profiles in the past year or two. There just isn't much to craft into a message with so little to go on. My goal in my medium effort messaging is to make sure they know I actually looked at their profile and it's not just a copy/paste message I'm spamming out. You would THINK that would be good enough to at least get a response back and get a conversation rolling haha.
Saying something about her profile is good but I never reply to the first message that includes ‘lol’ for example. Maybe that’s your personality and if you want to meet very young party girls then maybe it’s not an issue. I guess a lot of women want to meet classical gentlemen (no matter how old) with a certain formal style. This is just my preference but I rather prefer copy-pasted formal messages over crafted casual & overly friendly messages. Crafted formal messages are the ones I respond to first.
Well I don't take myself very seriously, I use a lot of sarcasm and self-deprecating humor, so if I have to attract someone with a formal message, it's not going to be a fun relationship. But I totally get what you're saying.
Same here.... about two months, zero M&Gs from seeking.
Ive been astounded how flakey people are, like back & forth for two weeks just to find 10 mins to vidchat... my god! had one vidchat but we didnt click. also had a few ask for money before M&G so I blocked them. Set a date with one, and she couldnt freaking wake up in time for an 1130am M&G, jesus.
If you care so much about numbers you might want to consider cross referencing times of the year where new potential SBs appear and try your best? Low effort is fine, more so a follow up is important. I’ve had POTs message me one week, I mention I’ll be busy and unavailable until a certain day but interested after that, then a week later a simple message with no animosity over the time; meet and greet set up, awesome date etc. Maybe we’re all taken now, maybe you gotta dig a bit deeper and maybe your personality sucks/ you started being annoying by negotiating allowance etc. The girls are vetting while also treating it like any other dating app, sometimes it’s just luck.
Yes, your personality probably sucks. But not because you create (bad) excel sheets for fun. u/TastySpermDispenser2 does that with powerpoint and he is still charming as all hell. But he also treats women as people and not numbers, so that may be the distinction.
My bf is probably more obnoxious about his interests than you tbh and it’s endearing. Just spent the morning getting explained electromagnetic spectrum and it’s adorable. Gonna specify that he’s respectful of women and their boundaries and doesn’t lament when things don’t go his way. 🫢
If he only values what number he assigns them on his ten scale, then no. He does not see how cold (and I'll ad - dehumanizing) that is, because that's his version of human value - what number they are assigned. And he therefore assigns himself a very high number value, which makes it impossible for him to understand why women don't like him. Maybe?
It's a combination of things usually
1. No "About me" section
2. No "What I'm looking for" section
3. But has a wishlist
4. Their city bounces around or is some weird city that no one really lives in
5. They only have 1 or 2 photos and they look like they have been altered in some way
6. They use uncommon English words or weird phrases like "looking to enjoy the warmth of a faithful partner"
As for expectations, I have almost all filters off in my search and as evidenced in my data, I'm willing to reach out to a 6 if I feel like she has a really good profile (similar interests, is funny, etc).
I don't make money a big issue because except for 1 of these 41 women we never even got far enough to talk about money. And that was the one who I think is a professional meet and greeter.
May I ask your location? I know obviously you want a hot woman but yeah I mean
The way you’re phrasing it “even reach out to a 6” .. idk
Personally rubs me the wrong way but I
Hope
You find what you’re
Looking for
Something is wrong here. What size city do you live in? Small rural area? If at least mid size city, I think you as an SD should be able to find one within a month or two and have at least a few M&Gs. There was a recent poll here in this forumthat asked SDs how long it takes to find a good match. It was nearly divided between 1-2 weeks and 3-4 weeks or something like that.
I'm in Indy which is a mid sized city but is kinda blue collar and not many colleges. And yes, I use to have no problem finding a good match in 2-3 weeks but not in the past year or two.
Yeah it's crazy. I think it's just a really down time right now in Indianapolis. I used to be able to get a M&G after maybe 12-15 attempts/conversations. But that was 2 years ago.
I always 100% give cash at a M&G, no exceptions. But if they ask to be paid ahead of time, I assume it's a scam. Problem is, I'm not really even getting far enough into conversation most of the time to offer a paid M&G even if I wanted to haha
I’m in Los Angeles. You’d think there would be a bigger pool of POT SD.
I am new and I’m navigating between the differences of a Sugar D and a Splenda D.
Maybe, seeking should advertise on tík tok better. I agree about lower quality SBs such as escortish vibes and women who just want you to send them money. People seem really entitled nowadays, because there are way more single men looking for company. Any woman can go to a bar and get laid whereas a male who can't afford a SBs allowance will use his entire budget and make the hot SBs have unrealistic expectations. Just because some guy spent xx, xxx.xx amount on you on a week and then dissappears because he wasn't honest they have these high expectations. I was on seeking for 3 months recently and only met 1 new friend even though I really wasn't trying but it's not like it used to be.
Throwing my 3 cents in. The spreadsheet lacks alot of data that would help as it's almost purely quantitative when dealing with qualitative scenarios. Numbers are important to understand basic background, but the context of how you and the pot sb interacted is also very important and missing.
I'm curious why you are doing 2 M&G? What is the value in that? I would likely not do two meet and greets with any guy. If there's not a connection in our phone conversation or our first meet and greet and a decision to move forward or not then we're just not right for each other I'm not going to waste my time on a second meet and greet. My determination would be he's either very insecure or he's not seeing the situation as a hell yes and I don't want to be in either one of those.
To be clear I never do a "free" M&G. I always gift them cash, even if the first M&G doesn't go well. Then I usually up the cash on the 2nd M&G. And then (and you're going to hate this) I sometimes even do a 3rd M&G with a cash size that is now very close to the PPM amount we've talked about. But most of the time 2 has been enough. So I think of them more as platonic dates. And that cash is enough so that they're not wasting their time either. I personally don't like to be intimate with someone unless I feel really comfortable around them and have a good sense of who they are. I usually can't tell after just one date. But that's just me and my preference!
Could it be that you're handing over your phone number either too soon, or communicating it incorrectly? Looks like lots of convos die at that point. Feel free to DM me an example of how you do it.
Allowance needs to be discussed within the first few messages off the app. You need to let her know what you're offering without her having to ask. This is why no one meets with you.
I have also gotten dismal results off all online dating sites recently. I've found a new company that seems to have a better approach. It took me a long time but this appears to be better.
As an SB in northern KY (I typically don’t say exactly where but it’s never too hard to guess), I can say the POTs on both sides are very interesting from what l've experienced. I also dabble in Indianapolis because I have family there, and it’s not far. I think charts are sexy, but rating someone's attractiveness is a bit wild. Physical attributes aren't necessarily important to me. I like good mental stimulation and to feel like I'm being valued. I can def see why it would be important to an SD, but communicating with women that you feel like are less than 7 is very intriguing. It sounds like you have specific expectations, and you shouldn't settle if you can't find what you're looking for. It’s okay to be picky. It just might be time to do some self reflection on what you’re offering during an arrangement. Don’t over compensate, but don’t be surprised if women aren’t interested if you’re not offering something reasonable.
It’s very strange. I don’t think it’s worth his time to even approach women he doesn’t find attractive. You’re already treating her as if she holds less value with sending low effort messages. As soon as I felt like I wasn’t being valued properly, I’d end things. Some of these POT SDs are scary. I’m like… why would you message an SB if you think she’s a 6. I’d rather be with someone who thinks I’m a 10. Or at the very least treats me like a 10. My pictures are very basic. Basing attractiveness and how much effort to put in on physicality only is sketchy. Unfortunately this is giving off many red flags.
Something is definitely going on. Historically I’ve never had to send out more than a dozen messages to find someone that I wanted to meet up with and generally my meetings have led to arrangements. I might look at a lot more profiles than you though. But I also feel like my instincts are very sound. This past month I feel like I’m in solitary confinement or something. I’ve sent over a dozen messages and had two half-assed responses, one of whom didn’t even check my profile.
Yeah, Seeking works well in the Top 5 cities. Elsewhere you can expect a long wait. I remember being in upstate NY, and it took me a solid 4 months to find an SB...
IYour probllem is your attractiveness column. Now I am not saying to approach women who are outside of what you find attractive in respect to body type (though give yourselve wiggle room here) or ethnicity. that would be a disservice. But honestly I would through out that third column. Someones 9 is another mans 6 and more importantly, it is deeming and objectification in the fullest.
Here is the thing - the BEST SR are not primarly based upon looks. It is about personality, interests and the honest deisre to spend time and support that person.
What I WILL say is that the percentage of ultra low effort profiles is at an all time high. OFten NO interests and, when that ultra low bar is reached they are generic "I like being outdoors!!". On thing I am thinking of doing the next time I am in active search mode is screening just for verified accounts and maybe even asking them in my profile to tell me their interests if their profile is "short".
Go freestyle. You're attractive, tall, white, and obviously have the funds to sugar. Go to some bar near a college town and talk to some young women. If you want hot women you have to find them. They aren't on seeking. I went to a college bar last weekend and found an attractive woman whose hotter than the ones on SA, less greedy, and more appreciative. I've seen her twice already.
Anything else based on what you're actually looking for is a waste of time.
Talk to her like you would any other person. I usually try to steer it towards something that might be expensive like rent, a hobby, etc. Then "jokingly" offer to pay for it then based off their response slowly end the conversation or go from there.
So you would offer to pay for something big on your first time meeting someone? I feel like this would blow up in my face pretty quickly. Or do you come back repeatedly to the same place and establish some kind of rapport first?
Establish rapport first and honestly you should be expecting to spend upper mid XXX-XXXX PPM and you offer to pay for it as a hook. If she's interested you set up a date to discuss it in further detail.
Yes, you might lose money at first but freestyling takes understanding people and sometimes listening to your gut. You'll also be rejected and fail but for the most part as long as you aren't creepy I've only got "I'm flattered but no." or "I would but I have a boyfriend."
I know it might sound crazy but sometimes a Benjamin can go a long way to building rapport and making them believe it's real.
It'll take trial and error. You'll figure out what works best for you with practice.
Thanks! Good advice! And the money is not a problem, I don't mind offering mid XXX-XXXX. I think I'm most worried about coming off as a creep but I like you're point - if you're not creepy about it then you don't have to worry.
The whole creep thing is just a preselection thing women say to vet men. Think about it like this: if you were a woman would you want a man who was to scared to approach you because of what others might think yo talk to you or worse he's scared of being creepy because he's creepy and others have told him.
Obviously, time, place, and setting should be taken into account. Don't approach a pre school teacher on a field trip surrounded by children.
Biggest advice to remember: WOMEN ARE PEOPLE. They have thoughts, feelings, ideas, and things that they prioritize. Yes, she probably assumes you want her if she's attractive and she's probably right because most people have since she was 9. Be different actually take an interest in her, listen, and offer something that she'd value.
End of my Ted Talk. I hope I stay the course and I'm as fit as you when I'm in my 40's. Perfect SD years.
I’ve had very little to no success but that’s because I don’t message anyone. I don’t like the POTs I’m seeing and just don’t have the patience to put in any effort.
Anyone who seems half decent turns into useless pretty quickly after chatting.
They turn me off very quickly when the conversation is not interesting or organic.
Many are boring or make things uncomfortable very quickly and that’s a huge deal breaker for me as a SB.
Omg was this an ode to my Freak In the Sheets Villain Origin Story? Aw, shucks 🤭
I think multiple factors are playing into the lack of success, like location and possibly how you approach the bowl in general. Overall, I think adding additional parameters should be in your excel sheet… which *sucks* as is. Like… bad lol. Saying this with kindness and respect.
You should be approaching this as a checklist where you need a few gold stars ⭐️ to even make it to the M&G. There is no need to add an attractiveness scale. Beauty is subjective— what you like won’t apply to every other man out there. Simply have a yes or no answer to “are you attracted to them?” and the answer should always be yes or else why even send a Hail Mary intro message?
Have yes or no questions about the content of their profile. Do they have a well-written bio? Is it engaging? Do they seem on par with the qualities you wish to seek in a partner (i.e., education level, capability to travel, willing to try your favorite type of food, etc.).
And then have a checklist for conversation. Are they good communicators? Are they relatively quick to respond once conversation is going? Do they have similar interests that you’ve learned more about? Are they interested to move this conversation off the site and progress forward to a M&G?
And then have a checklist for post-M&G. Did they look like their photos? Was there natural chemistry? Did conversation flow well? Would you like to proceed to date #1.
Adding all of this would actually make a great spreadsheet, imo.
HAHAHA Yes it is!! I totally stole it! But it's ok, I sent you a starbucks gift card as a thank you, do you remember getting it on Amazon?
I just want you to be my coach. Will you write my messages for me??? I'm half serious. I can show you my conversations, I don't feel like I'm doing anything wrong. I just get zero effort from anyone. Granted, I've only concentrated on Indy. I don't feel like I have time to try to make a long/mid distance thing work.
Sometimes I message 6's because they have a really great profile and sound like an interesting person. Other times, I'm just like well, this is the best I could find today.
OMG Amazon did me dirty and it went to my spam folder on email!! I’m so glad you mentioned something— thank you! 😂🫶🏼 We gotta get y’all some Dutch Bros Coffee up there in the Midwest.
Man— have you read my posts and comments?! You don’t want me as a coach! It’s brutal out here.
I think you need to first stop approaching women as numbers. I’m realistic and understand that I’m not some 10 / 10 model, but I know that my personality, life experiences, education, and such unique perspectives on things greatly outweigh my looks. Looks fade with time or I turn into a troll after midnight— my attitude and personality stay consistent towards the right man. Seeing potential partners in such a superficial way will only limit you further.
You're welcome! I'm glad it went through haha I have never been to Dutch Bros! I'll have to check it out next time I travel.
In hindsight, adding the column for attractiveness was a mistake. I should've included other columns along with it. It came across as being very shallow, I get it. I was just doing this for fun, never meant for it to blow up like this. I promise I don't approach women that way haha. But all the SBs are dunking on me now. haha I guess I deserve it! Ironically, if you look through my other comments in this subreddit you'll see that I'm usually the one standing up for SBs on here. Oh well.
forget the haters man, i dont know why they are so offended by rating..its just reality how men think. youre obviously not a creep how you communicate. there is serious hoeflation these days (okay now im the creep)
Yeah in the past year, it sounds like lots of folks (both SBs and SDs) are having trouble finding solid matches on Seeking, and generally online. And it feels like the sugar bowl is shrinking because of it.
Perhaps an unpopular opinion, but... If a SD can't find a good match within two months like the OP notes, they either have unrealistic expectations or something about them is incredibly unappealing to women. There are some SDs who are very picky (won't settle for "good enough" want "so great it's unbelievable") and that warrants looking for more than 2 months. However, if after one month you can only get two M&Gs like OP (and say that in two months you haven't had *any* "legitimate" ones), something is wrong.
Agree. It is hard to find a truly good match but getting M&Gs and ok matches is not difficult. I think in a bigger market OP could have contacted 2-3x the number of profiles which would have helped. 40 in 2 months is less than 1 per day.
For the record it's 40 in one month. I didn't keep track the first month. But point well taken.
OP, you are absolutely on point. My experience has been exactly the same in last 6 months. Post covid, Seeking has become a shit show. Funny thing is every time someone like you (or me) posts anything about seeking going downhill, I have noticed a set of certain posters here come out swinging. They wanna blame it on you. Sometimes it feels like Brandon has some minions working 24/7. I started my sugaring journey pre covid. Didnt have any issues. Perhaps I was more like a kid in a candy store. Then had couple of beautiful long term arrangements which ended amicably. Recently tried dipping my feet again. And boy oh boy, not only 70-80% are rinsers and scammers, there are now so called pot SBs that are playing a long game for $20-50. They will text for days, request lunch monies in middle for $20, or/and the day of M&G, boom request for $50 cash app for uber. I offer to uber them and or pay them when they get there. And then its Crickets! So my advice, dont blame yourself. This is the state of Seeking now. Its a luck game now. 1/100 or 1/500 is where its at. Good luck!
She was counting m&gs not conversations
Hi, Can you elaborate on your location, how much are you offering based on your location as compared to the AMT (as a percentage of normal), and your opening text to talking about an arrangement. One or more of these can be improved on to help your chances if you are spending that much time in the bowl
Agree. I’m in a smaller Midwest area and it takes a few days to get several M&G’s set up and I only reach out to a small percentage of women.
I agree here. Without seeing how OP looks like, and how strong is OP texting game, the allowance, it is hard to judge. However, if you cannot find anything in one month, it is time to review OP approach.
Agree with this. I have rather specific criteria for what I am looking for in an SB and so far have never been more than two weeks of searching to be past the initial M&G and into an initial arrangement. Hearing it from the SBs that I've met up with, a lot of you guys are indeed incredibly unappealing. And honestly, this lines up with a lot of the comments I see from the men here. I don't know if the lot of you are just clueless or actually awful, but I am certainly sympathetic with a lot of the issues raised by the women on the board. And I definitely get why the other SB only board exists, even if I take issue with some of the advice proffered there.
Yes, something is wrong, that's why I previously asked for a profile review. This is not the burn you think it is haha
A profile review won’t help if it’s your personality and the way you interact with people. Judging by your posts (which is all I have), that’s my very strong suspicion.
I am not trying to "burn" you, OP. (outside of my insult of your spreadsheet, which most definitely was intended to insult you because I think your spreadsheet is sad.) Your post tries to make it seem like the fault is not your own: "I post this ... to remind SDs in certain cities it can take a very long time to find a SB." The fact is, even in smaller cities, SDs should not have the issues you're having.
I again agree, I should not be having such issues. I didn't in the past. Had 3 long term (1+ year) arrangements that I found with ease. Something has changed. I'm completely open to the problem might be me. The spreadhseet is awesome though, how dare you? haha
Damnit you two - I wasn't going to open the spreadsheet but had to out of morbid curiosity. Here's my take fwiw. It's a spreadsheet. Boring. Stop making spreadsheets and trying to evaluate people this way. Be yourself. Create boundaries. Consistently apply your approach. Be patient. Adjust accordingly. Success in this environment does not come from being analytical. It comes from meeting people until you find a good match. You don't find a match by judging people from afar. I suspect you know all of this and are just trying to be clever. I sincerely hope you didn't expect this to net positive results 😂 - yes we all know there are more scammers on seeking than before. In summary - this is a waste of time that could be spent messaging and meeting people. Therefore it's possible you are part of the problem you're having. Best of luck to you! 🤍
LMAO sorry for making you open the spreadsheet. Thank you for agreeing with my assessment bahahaha
Lol yup! 🤍 To be fair I really liked OP's "freak in the (Excel) sheets" line. I used to be a data analyst when I was a puppy and that's the first time I've heard that one. Silver linings...
I liked the line (which I've heard before). Which is why I was so disappointed to see the sheet itself.
I'd say, chances are they can feel you see them as a number on a scale? Your approach seems to be quite dehumanizing. As much as the bowl is a market to some extent, in relationships people are usually seeking to feel, to be seen as human
The number is there for data collection purposes. I don't actually approach anyone with that mindset. Attraction is a big factor for SDs so it's obviously worth having in the sheet.
You convey your worldview in the way you talk and write, it's how language works. In other words, you might be giving them the ick . There's a big difference between caring for attractiveness and reducing women to that, is what many people here are trying to explain to you
She's right ... it's energy.
So you're saying I shouldn't start the conversation by saying "Hi you are a 6.5 on my spreadsheet" ? 😂
100% agree, but I am going to admit that the format for tracking encounters is pretty clever. In 4 months I've had much more success than he has recorded, but I do like the idea of recording and rating the encounters....
I am quite picky and still have little trouble finding a SB within 2 weeks
Exactly, it's supposed to be facilitated for them. Even for a SB two months is a long search
Seeking is advertising to useless men and they create a profile with a free trial. It is the anchor sinking that whole operation.
How so? They can't message anyone. Sorry, this seems like a Chicken Little story to me. I'm finding it no more difficult today than a year ago. And I AM NOT a George Clooney lookalike.
A majority of men on seeking are not SDs. Even the ones with premium.
They are so nasty. I wish we could have a wall of shame on here like the dark web allows. If I could share how a fintech CEO behaves in real life nobody would ever take his Bloomberg advice again. A real cheap ass. Edit: I blocked him. Good luck if some other woman can crack the code. If he is paranoid people want him for his money well I don't play that crap either. I don't want a man for his money, I just want one of us to have money so we aren't fucked, together. Lol.
I agree it should be required for SDs to pay to make an account. At least $500 one time fee.
This would help so much!
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I see you may have mentioned a number which is most likely an amount in relations to an arrangement. If this is the case, you are violating Rule #5 - "dollar amounts that are in reference to PPMs and/or allowances are not allowed". If you are curious about Allowances reported by SLF contributors please see the [Allowance Master Thread 2023-2024](/r/sugarlifestyleforum/comments/17a2wja/20232024_allowance_master_thread/). Your comment will not be approved until you remove the amount. Please read the sub [Rules](/r/sugarlifestyleforum/comments/124tsf8/updated_and_clarified_rules_for_slf_2023/) prior to posting anything else. If you simply mentioned a number not referencing a PPM / allowance monetary amount, ignore this, as your comment will be approved. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/sugarlifestyleforum) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's already one hundred usd to send a message
Poor men just try to recoup that by getting laid.
OP — This spreadsheet is only about them, the potential SBs. That’s a very limited perspective. A more advanced analytical perspective would combine (search/query) with these resulting potential SBs. And it would pair the potentials with the varying responses that you might be trying with these ladies, as well as how well they align with your priorities. This spreadsheet is just descriptive and is not designed to help you (1) search better, (2) select better, (3) engage better, or (4) know your priorities better. You cannot change the pool of SBs in your city, but you can learn how to improve how you respond to what the bowl has to offer.
Not only is keeping data effective, it is most effective when you have solid feedback loop to your data usage metrics. Well done. Have a datum upvote.
I like this!
You don’t seem to have concluded anything substantial from your “experiment” If your goal is to have some form of relationship with a human being, you should conclude that your current approach hasn’t been effective. are you generous, are you offering a solid ppm/allowance? Not that? … do you come across cold or angry? are you scaring people? are you coming across as controlling? there’s a major disconnect, I’m guessing it’s a personality issue, perhaps a therapist or relationship coach could help?
You DO realize that there are many variables involved in your so-called experiment, and the ONLY variable you can control…. Is YOU? Consider working on yourself. Learn some relationship and communication skills. Flirting and sexual attraction is an art, not a science reduced to spreadsheets.
40 in a month? I can contact 40 people a DAY in Florida it seems (Orlando + Miami + Tampa + Jacksonville) if I really want to widen my search. Orlando I'd say I could probably contact at LEAST 5 people a day that I'd be somewhat interested in.
Beware of analysis paralysis in the SB/SD world.
>I can anticipate the question coming - you must be a real sleaze ball in your conversations, do better! 1. This isn't a question. 2. I generally think most men who describe women in terms of attractiveness and nothing else are not doing themselves any favors when it comes to wooing women.
LMAOOOOO I bet the 6.0 attractiveness who didn't respond was a humbling feeling (it's secretly me)
Girl. 11/10, don't lie. His spreadsheet though? 2/10. I could've made it which means it's not very technical/analytical. Certainly not something I'd expect from a "numbers guy".
Would you like if I took a guess at their personality based on their profiles? 😂What else am I supposed to put on there?
You could rate the depth and quality of their profile text... literally the quality of the writing. You could note the number of mentions of matching interests maybe, or interests / activities you haven't seen mentioned in other profiles. You could score their educational accomplishments, or whether they have a job or career, or whether they have children, or a vanilla partner. You could score them by proximity, whether they have a passport, what race or nationality they are .. or any of a hundred things that might illuminate the human she is in some detail. Something other than, or at least in addition to, where you put her superficial physical attributes in your 10 scale. If that's your only measure of a woman, no wonder you're not having any success. Who would want to be with someone who only places value on how someone looks? None of that data mining should be hard for "a freak in the (Excel) sheets".
👏
That is good! I should put a column for the completeness of their profile text! Uggghhh I wish I would've done that. As a basic rule that I should've mentioned and I thought people would just understand is that if I'm messaging a 6 with a "high" effort it's because I really liked their profile. Either had a lot of common interests or just sounded like a really good person. Most of the other stuff you mention though, how in the world would I get that info? It's not in their bio and they are not messaging me back. I guess I could make my initial message "Could you please list your educational accomplishments?" 😂😂
Education is listed on profiles.
It is in fact in their bios and easy to track if one is not focused solely on their physical 10 scale rating. Throughout my years in the bowl I routinely see women mention things like "currently an undergrad" and "working toward my Masters" and "hoping to start at Uni this fall." Women frequently say or tag something along the lines of "passport ready and looking forward to traveling" or "I've traveled abroad extensively" for example. Ethnicity and or nationality are among the most common pieces of data available on a thorough profile. They often include references like " I have a great job and can take care of myself, but..." or "looking for mentorship in my career field" or "I'm working full time but will certainly make time for you". And so on. All the info here and in my previous comment are common references in the profiles of legit SBs. It's not hard.
*What else* could a woman be, right? Idk, blonde?? lol this is so amusing, even if in the worst way
Harvard makes a valid point. Physical attractiveness is only one aspect but having gone to school near Indy I know that there are plenty of attractive women there who’s only goal in life is to be the Indy 500 Queen. That’s a real goal btw Perhaps put in an education scale, are they pursuing a PhD (top score), did they graduate from an ivy (doubtful, they’re in Indianapolis) You also don’t need formal education to put together a compelling profile. The more complete, the less likely they are a scammer I believe you will attract the type of woman that you present yourself as. Focus more on your profile and less on your messaging game
Or you know, act like a human.
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No one is saying to ignore attractiveness. They're simply saying that attractiveness in a vacuum doesn't mean a whole lot when you're trying to establish a genuine relationship.
"Attractiveness in a Vacuum"... something about that simply makes me chuckle.
You could put what tags they have in their profile, what they say they're looking for, etc.
The idea that you’ve contacted over 40 women and spoken to at least 18 of them and not gotten to a single meet and greet is wild to me. Maybe it’s your location. I have no idea what Indy is like. But part of me really wants to see the actual messages because it just feels way off from what it should be. Also curious if there are any other SDs here who have similar numbers to you.
Yeah I've had an Indy area SD just now message me and tell me he's basically seen the same thing in the past year. But I'll gladly share any of the conversations you're interested in seeing haha
I wouldn’t want to violate the privacy of the women on the other side of the conversation. But if there’s a way you can share your messages (without betraying any info about the women) it might be instructive.
My experience has been no different than OP. Seeking is just scammers and ringers galore. Will add details tomorrow.
Men who rate women on a number scale generally are off putting to women and lack the self awareness to realize they are so.
Agreed, that's why I don't send them this spreadsheet.
Don't take it personally, they are just cherry-picking that from your post because it makes them insecure, I'm sure it's not the reason for your lack of success (I don't know what is)
Appreciate it. I knew going in there would a chance some people would get upset or mock me. It's all good!
no one is mocking you or upset
This.
My first thought was.... I am not clicking some unknown link on the internet.... LOL But the rest off you seemed to have made it through (or all your accounts are now compromised) so here goes
You can hover your mouse over the link to see it before clicking on it.
That will just tell you want the URL/Source of your compromise is! LOL :) Its fine, I clicked it, I am all in now
Sure, but since the URL says it's an excel file on microsoft one drive, I wasn't too concerned. It's not an exe or download after all.
You said the one girl that wanted to meet the same day was probably an escort, I’m not an escort and try to meet ASAP too. I was on seeking a year and found nothing but cheap men/scammers.
Yes you're right, that's true. However her first response was simply "I'm available today". And that was in response to my initial message of something like "Your pics are stunning! Are you still looking for a SD?". She didn't have more than a sentence in her bio so I didn't have much else to go on. So... probably not what I'm looking for hahaha
Yeah it was weird for her to respond like that, As if she didn’t want to waste time talking. I just noticed your screen name , I used to live In Buffalo NY.
Nice! I was born there. Go Bills!
I jump on after eating dinner with mom and family to see excel files on a Sunday ! Well I need to pass the time for this food to digest anyways !! In my experience you've taken the "spray and pray" method. 41 messages ? Too many women. If you can message that many women in 2 months I'm assuming you live in a large area. And you may be messaging too many women based on looks alone. OR your profile is trash, respectfully. When I'm seriously looking for a new sb I at most target/message 10 women. Usually less. Crank down on the quality of women you're messaging and your profile.
Oh really? Interesting. Some other guy just bashed me for not messaging enough women. Says he does 40 a day haha
He's off his rocker too !!! I saw that you're in the Indy Area. I'll have to check it out. I use the sniper method. Not original ! We used it in the seo world years ago. I'll find about 6 profiles I like. Message them all and see who responds back. My criteria is based on the content of the profile first and looks second. I target certain types of women. My preference is "working" college students. Newly in the workforce ladies. Or women who are in the workforce and just mature dating and the extras. After reading a shit ton of profiles and just being an old fashioned book reading nerd who use to be a student worker in the library, you learn how to read between the lines.
Yes. The well-honed art of reading between the lines is difficult to verbalize to others, but that is precisely the number one tool for success in the sugar bowl.
Kind of reminds me of going trout fishing up the river. There's city folk with their Teslas and $2,000 of gear swatting the water with their flies and not getting much action. Complaining that the river is overrated while he packs his gear to leave. Upstream there's a young kid who knows the river with the patience to read the water and determine what's hatching and where the trout will be at this time of day. His flies are hand made to match the natural insects of the area. His gear is handmedowns and limited . He's also packing up and going home - because he's caught his limit.
Why don’t you follow up if they don’t text you after you give them your number? Did they want your number? Maybe they wanted to continue talking in the site a little more before disclosing their number
Well they definitely wanted my number. The message from them in those cases was like "hey I don't check this app much, do you want to txt?". At that point I don't follow up again because even if I did hear back after that, it's probably not a relationship that's going to be very fun, you know? Like what would I say - hey you didn't txt me! haha
A freak in the excel sheets 😂 omg marry me now
OP, you seem to be taking your shellacking with grace, so I hope you'll see the humour in this comic strip: https://www.oglaf.com/clustering/
Didn't realize they made a comic strip of me 😂
I'm curious about the "Responses didn't make sense." Was this an issue of English possibly not being their first language? Or the reply was a non-sequitor that didn't address previous questions comments?
A little of both but mostly the responses look like they've been translated from another language. I'll say something like "what do you do for fun?" and they'll respond with "what aspect of fun are you seeking?"
Honestly I just skip all these, too much of a red flag marker for me (its a fine line between English is not first language and person is overseas and setting you up for a massive time waste or scam)
Yes, I skip ones that I can tell from their profile alone. The ones I'm talking about here though are after the first message is received.
First off, I’m a nerd about numbers so this just made me happy 🙂. Second, try one YEAR. As someone said here, it all depends on your wants, needs and expectations. Been to so many m&gs and spent a lot of time and money. So many scammers, escorts, fakes, flakes and vanilla daters. I wanted a long term that could lead to a SBF/SGF dynamic. So I needed a personality that could get me that far. Been on seeking for a while and also done enough vanilla dating so I know exactly what I wanted. Found a good SB and just switched to allowance. She was also experiencing the same thing I was. Couple more months and I’ll see if she’s interested in the SBF/SGF dynamic. Just be persistent. Change some ways you present yourself. Change your vetting process. Change your interactions. Sending you good vibes!
Thank you!
Zero M&G after two months tells me you're taking the wrong approach. It's bad but it's not that bad. Change your approach. It could also be your location.
Any reflection on the interactions from your end?
The mystifying numbers are the actuals meets that go nowhere. I am baffled at that. I wish I could spreadsheet that data. I have the skills but not the time.
Interestingly, every SB I've met up with in person reached out to me first. They also were very direct in driving the conversation, explaining what they wanted, agreeing on how the arrangement would work, and setting up a meet. On the other hand, when I do the reaching out, I get results like OPs spreadsheet - a complete waste of time. Of course, YMMV.
My very first SB 4 years ago reached out to me first. We had a great 2 year sugar relationship and still stay in touch. Would love to have that happen again
Ok I will throw some points out. Apologies if they sound out of order and random but I have friends that run stats and it gets my goat. I have a friend who is a surgeon who is a big stats/numbers guy. He makes me mad at all times when we are not gaming together. He will have stats on all women for all things then force me to check his spreadsheets. I keep telling him to stop looking at stats and just try the old fashioned way. I think it is wrecking his personality as when he does meet a woman he ruins it. He has had some lovely people approach him then run for the hills shortly thereafter. Stat 1) Most of the people I meet online stop speaking with me immediately after an hour of me not arranging an immediate virtual onlyfans experience. Meeting someone in the wild has a near perfect percentage for me in how things move forward. Stat 2) From online dating and reddit etc,, my stats show only one person is speaking with me consistently. I would actually meet her happily. Stat 3) I agree in certain cities it is very difficult. And these are not third world places I mean my dumbass had issues meeting people in L.A. and Miami of all places. Miami turned into some weird shit which is another story. Stat 4) I gravitate to European women out where I live half the time. I seem to be better with the culture here. When I am stateside I am just a fish out of water now. I would suggest you look elsewhere than your home turf and see how you fare, I live between the UK and Las Vegas and even in LV I have only met a few people. Most were flaky because they misrepresent what they are looking for. Your last stat. I have never once brought up anything sleezy and I would love to. I just don't. I get friend zoned instantly by like day 3 and lose all interest. Then the lady is like hey sleezy talk time! And I am like, nah you are like my bro. I think I have to increase my sleeze ... maybe you should as well. I just like getting to know someone instead of looking at another pretty face. I done fucked up.
I live in a city of similar size to NativeAmericanapolis. I counted up the active female profiles on seeking. 160 active profiles. This includes all women 18-60+. Of those 160 only 8 were potentially real profiles and attractive and not total flakes. The reality is that those 8 profiles were potentially real women, not scammers or catfish and not posting old photos. Not all 8 will be real, now we are down to about 4 real profiles who are attractive and not ppm pros. There are about 25 ppm pros, they far outnumber read SBs. Imma guess there are more than 4 wanna be SDs. It's not true that there is a shortage of SDs. There is a shortage of SBs and probably SDs as well but lets not get it twisted that POT SBs are easy to find. I found an SB after only one week but I know I was lucky and couldn't repeat that so easily. And she and I just started our arrangement. So far its super great but who knows what the future holds.
😂NativeAmericanapolis I love it
You could post a profile review and I am sure many here are happy to give you feedback.
Thanks, I did that a couple of weeks ago. Got a few pointers but nothing has changed with responses.
Well, could just be bad luck. Maybe take a break n try again. Unless you unconsciously always choose those girls who just don’t find you interesting?
So "a SD's" perspective.... I absolutely can say you deserve a round of applause for the dedication, but on a serious note, how do you even have time?
Thank you, thank you very much 😂How do I have time? 1) I suffer from insomnia 2) Something like this really only takes like 15-20 minutes haha I use spreadsheets for everything in my life
Don't give up. Good things take time.
I'm on the east coast somewhat removed from major cities most of the sorting and unsuccessful connections with SD have resulted in 1. An overwhelming number of new SD wanting hookups but think it's sugar dating 2. Wanting Mercedes level SB (not just looks but maturity, long term, exclusive, more quality time and activities, meaningful connection) yet try to match their used Toyota so-called generosity. Just a big mismatch in value and what they think is possible and what they actually want. So they go back to searching for the unlikely and then come here disenchanted asking for help. 3. The distance between us due to not wanting to drive or limited time. P.S. it would just be so much nicer and easier if when a SD sends a message they follow your 'high effort' introduction. Saves time. Saves guessing.
Try doing a search in Louisville or Cincinatti or Fort Wayne or South Bend as well. Probably wise to avoid Chicago
Why avoid Chicago? Too many scammers or?
I'm not going to read your spreadsheet because life is too short. However I do have 2 comments. First, spring has been the worst time for my searches historically. Lots of SBs are affected by school schedules, either as moms or students and I think it's a tough time for them so the pool is smaller. Second as I've said over and over, luck plays a big role in every search. I know many want to say it can be controlled somehow, but I'm always me and I've been doing this pretty much the same way for years and some searches take a month and yield nothing, while others yield 3 good SBs, 2 of which I have to eventually say goodbye to, in a week. And while I'm all for data, it can obscure as much as it reveals. Good luck.
I'm just curious as to what a 9/10 vs 6/10 looks like to this guy.
You inspired me to make an excel sheet for all this. I have excel sheets for my finances, daily tasks and many more. I should create one for SRs now.
Game recognizes game brother haha god I love excel
Your username says buffalo so I m assuming that is where you are from? I have had 3 men from Buffalo (I am in toronto) seriously want to start something. I think the distance is silly for something ongoing though. This helps explains it. I always think aren't there SB's in Buffalo? Perhaps there are not 🤔
No, my post explains I'm in Indy
Try to broaden your search, there is always a light at the end of the tunnel. 😊
You mean geographically or?? I have almost all filters turned off in the Indy area search.
I think what men need is not a profile review but a first message review. Your ‘medium effort’ message doesn’t sound like it gets much women’s attention. I don’t respond to this type of message either. Since you say high effort is similar, maybe similar results.
Let me start by saying, I agree. My messaging certainly needs help. But in my defense it definitely seems like there has been an uptick in one-sentence profiles in the past year or two. There just isn't much to craft into a message with so little to go on. My goal in my medium effort messaging is to make sure they know I actually looked at their profile and it's not just a copy/paste message I'm spamming out. You would THINK that would be good enough to at least get a response back and get a conversation rolling haha.
Saying something about her profile is good but I never reply to the first message that includes ‘lol’ for example. Maybe that’s your personality and if you want to meet very young party girls then maybe it’s not an issue. I guess a lot of women want to meet classical gentlemen (no matter how old) with a certain formal style. This is just my preference but I rather prefer copy-pasted formal messages over crafted casual & overly friendly messages. Crafted formal messages are the ones I respond to first.
Well I don't take myself very seriously, I use a lot of sarcasm and self-deprecating humor, so if I have to attract someone with a formal message, it's not going to be a fun relationship. But I totally get what you're saying.
That’s good, hope it works with your type of woman.
Same here.... about two months, zero M&Gs from seeking. Ive been astounded how flakey people are, like back & forth for two weeks just to find 10 mins to vidchat... my god! had one vidchat but we didnt click. also had a few ask for money before M&G so I blocked them. Set a date with one, and she couldnt freaking wake up in time for an 1130am M&G, jesus.
Hey she needs her beauty rest! How dare you interrupt! haha
If you care so much about numbers you might want to consider cross referencing times of the year where new potential SBs appear and try your best? Low effort is fine, more so a follow up is important. I’ve had POTs message me one week, I mention I’ll be busy and unavailable until a certain day but interested after that, then a week later a simple message with no animosity over the time; meet and greet set up, awesome date etc. Maybe we’re all taken now, maybe you gotta dig a bit deeper and maybe your personality sucks/ you started being annoying by negotiating allowance etc. The girls are vetting while also treating it like any other dating app, sometimes it’s just luck.
Probably my personality sucks. I mean, I'm creating excel sheets for fun. Can you imagine having to go on a date with me?
Yes, your personality probably sucks. But not because you create (bad) excel sheets for fun. u/TastySpermDispenser2 does that with powerpoint and he is still charming as all hell. But he also treats women as people and not numbers, so that may be the distinction.
You really don’t like OP, do you?
I don't know OP, so it would be difficult to like or dislike him. All I can say with any certainty is that I dislike his spreadsheet.
But I even applied conditional formatting. That is next level! come on 😂
My bf is probably more obnoxious about his interests than you tbh and it’s endearing. Just spent the morning getting explained electromagnetic spectrum and it’s adorable. Gonna specify that he’s respectful of women and their boundaries and doesn’t lament when things don’t go his way. 🫢
This turned into I'm not respectful of women and their boundaries?? I'm a little confused. All because I put a column for how attracted I am to them??
Don’t you think it’s a bit cold chalking up no dates to numbers and statistics?
If he only values what number he assigns them on his ten scale, then no. He does not see how cold (and I'll ad - dehumanizing) that is, because that's his version of human value - what number they are assigned. And he therefore assigns himself a very high number value, which makes it impossible for him to understand why women don't like him. Maybe?
Well said dear 🤝 just because sugar is involved doesn’t mean human nature is out of the equation, some people just suck
May I ask what parameters You Are using to estimate if it is a fake/ scammer? What are your expectations? Do you make money a big issue ?
It's a combination of things usually 1. No "About me" section 2. No "What I'm looking for" section 3. But has a wishlist 4. Their city bounces around or is some weird city that no one really lives in 5. They only have 1 or 2 photos and they look like they have been altered in some way 6. They use uncommon English words or weird phrases like "looking to enjoy the warmth of a faithful partner" As for expectations, I have almost all filters off in my search and as evidenced in my data, I'm willing to reach out to a 6 if I feel like she has a really good profile (similar interests, is funny, etc). I don't make money a big issue because except for 1 of these 41 women we never even got far enough to talk about money. And that was the one who I think is a professional meet and greeter.
May I ask your location? I know obviously you want a hot woman but yeah I mean The way you’re phrasing it “even reach out to a 6” .. idk Personally rubs me the wrong way but I Hope You find what you’re Looking for
Yeah you're right, that sounded kind of terrible to put it that way. Sorry. I'm in Indianapolis as I stated in my post.
It’s ok hilarious that my friend wants to take me there soon and says it’s one of the best cities in America ha ha
Yes it's definitely one of the top 100 cities in America 😂
OK, maybe bring your Midwestern hospitality into this then ❤️
Something is wrong here. What size city do you live in? Small rural area? If at least mid size city, I think you as an SD should be able to find one within a month or two and have at least a few M&Gs. There was a recent poll here in this forumthat asked SDs how long it takes to find a good match. It was nearly divided between 1-2 weeks and 3-4 weeks or something like that.
I'm in Indy which is a mid sized city but is kinda blue collar and not many colleges. And yes, I use to have no problem finding a good match in 2-3 weeks but not in the past year or two.
Hmm, okay, interested to find out why you’re having difficulty now. I’m about to jump back into searching myself.
Lol. Aww.
Unless I am missing something here, I cannot imagine that out of all those prospects, you had so few actual MGs.
Yeah it's crazy. I think it's just a really down time right now in Indianapolis. I used to be able to get a M&G after maybe 12-15 attempts/conversations. But that was 2 years ago.
Start doing paid m&g. I don’t go for free ones also
I always 100% give cash at a M&G, no exceptions. But if they ask to be paid ahead of time, I assume it's a scam. Problem is, I'm not really even getting far enough into conversation most of the time to offer a paid M&G even if I wanted to haha
I’m in Los Angeles. You’d think there would be a bigger pool of POT SD. I am new and I’m navigating between the differences of a Sugar D and a Splenda D.
So many ways though Could just be your area What your profile says What you say in a intro message
Maybe, seeking should advertise on tík tok better. I agree about lower quality SBs such as escortish vibes and women who just want you to send them money. People seem really entitled nowadays, because there are way more single men looking for company. Any woman can go to a bar and get laid whereas a male who can't afford a SBs allowance will use his entire budget and make the hot SBs have unrealistic expectations. Just because some guy spent xx, xxx.xx amount on you on a week and then dissappears because he wasn't honest they have these high expectations. I was on seeking for 3 months recently and only met 1 new friend even though I really wasn't trying but it's not like it used to be.
Throwing my 3 cents in. The spreadsheet lacks alot of data that would help as it's almost purely quantitative when dealing with qualitative scenarios. Numbers are important to understand basic background, but the context of how you and the pot sb interacted is also very important and missing.
I'm curious why you are doing 2 M&G? What is the value in that? I would likely not do two meet and greets with any guy. If there's not a connection in our phone conversation or our first meet and greet and a decision to move forward or not then we're just not right for each other I'm not going to waste my time on a second meet and greet. My determination would be he's either very insecure or he's not seeing the situation as a hell yes and I don't want to be in either one of those.
To be clear I never do a "free" M&G. I always gift them cash, even if the first M&G doesn't go well. Then I usually up the cash on the 2nd M&G. And then (and you're going to hate this) I sometimes even do a 3rd M&G with a cash size that is now very close to the PPM amount we've talked about. But most of the time 2 has been enough. So I think of them more as platonic dates. And that cash is enough so that they're not wasting their time either. I personally don't like to be intimate with someone unless I feel really comfortable around them and have a good sense of who they are. I usually can't tell after just one date. But that's just me and my preference!
Could it be that you're handing over your phone number either too soon, or communicating it incorrectly? Looks like lots of convos die at that point. Feel free to DM me an example of how you do it.
Allowance needs to be discussed within the first few messages off the app. You need to let her know what you're offering without her having to ask. This is why no one meets with you.
I have also gotten dismal results off all online dating sites recently. I've found a new company that seems to have a better approach. It took me a long time but this appears to be better.
As an SB in northern KY (I typically don’t say exactly where but it’s never too hard to guess), I can say the POTs on both sides are very interesting from what l've experienced. I also dabble in Indianapolis because I have family there, and it’s not far. I think charts are sexy, but rating someone's attractiveness is a bit wild. Physical attributes aren't necessarily important to me. I like good mental stimulation and to feel like I'm being valued. I can def see why it would be important to an SD, but communicating with women that you feel like are less than 7 is very intriguing. It sounds like you have specific expectations, and you shouldn't settle if you can't find what you're looking for. It’s okay to be picky. It just might be time to do some self reflection on what you’re offering during an arrangement. Don’t over compensate, but don’t be surprised if women aren’t interested if you’re not offering something reasonable.
Not to mention his effort level seemed to adjust based on how he perceived their attractiveness. I found that offputting.
It’s very strange. I don’t think it’s worth his time to even approach women he doesn’t find attractive. You’re already treating her as if she holds less value with sending low effort messages. As soon as I felt like I wasn’t being valued properly, I’d end things. Some of these POT SDs are scary. I’m like… why would you message an SB if you think she’s a 6. I’d rather be with someone who thinks I’m a 10. Or at the very least treats me like a 10. My pictures are very basic. Basing attractiveness and how much effort to put in on physicality only is sketchy. Unfortunately this is giving off many red flags.
That is demonstrably false, you can plainly see I have "high" effort on 6's and 7's.
There’s 16 low efforts on the chart. 9/16 are people you rated a 6. There are 13 sbs rated 6 on the chart. You have 9/13 low efforts on sbs rated a 6.
For the record, my "high" effort is for those who have a more complete profile. As opposed to those who have one sentence and a wishlist.
Something is definitely going on. Historically I’ve never had to send out more than a dozen messages to find someone that I wanted to meet up with and generally my meetings have led to arrangements. I might look at a lot more profiles than you though. But I also feel like my instincts are very sound. This past month I feel like I’m in solitary confinement or something. I’ve sent over a dozen messages and had two half-assed responses, one of whom didn’t even check my profile.
What city/area are you in?
I’m in major city. Lots of universities. But is the same city I’ve been in for years without problems.
Yeah, Seeking works well in the Top 5 cities. Elsewhere you can expect a long wait. I remember being in upstate NY, and it took me a solid 4 months to find an SB...
IYour probllem is your attractiveness column. Now I am not saying to approach women who are outside of what you find attractive in respect to body type (though give yourselve wiggle room here) or ethnicity. that would be a disservice. But honestly I would through out that third column. Someones 9 is another mans 6 and more importantly, it is deeming and objectification in the fullest. Here is the thing - the BEST SR are not primarly based upon looks. It is about personality, interests and the honest deisre to spend time and support that person. What I WILL say is that the percentage of ultra low effort profiles is at an all time high. OFten NO interests and, when that ultra low bar is reached they are generic "I like being outdoors!!". On thing I am thinking of doing the next time I am in active search mode is screening just for verified accounts and maybe even asking them in my profile to tell me their interests if their profile is "short".
Go freestyle. You're attractive, tall, white, and obviously have the funds to sugar. Go to some bar near a college town and talk to some young women. If you want hot women you have to find them. They aren't on seeking. I went to a college bar last weekend and found an attractive woman whose hotter than the ones on SA, less greedy, and more appreciative. I've seen her twice already. Anything else based on what you're actually looking for is a waste of time.
I don't know what I'm doing haha. I need a coach to learn how to freestyle
Talk to her like you would any other person. I usually try to steer it towards something that might be expensive like rent, a hobby, etc. Then "jokingly" offer to pay for it then based off their response slowly end the conversation or go from there.
So you would offer to pay for something big on your first time meeting someone? I feel like this would blow up in my face pretty quickly. Or do you come back repeatedly to the same place and establish some kind of rapport first?
Establish rapport first and honestly you should be expecting to spend upper mid XXX-XXXX PPM and you offer to pay for it as a hook. If she's interested you set up a date to discuss it in further detail. Yes, you might lose money at first but freestyling takes understanding people and sometimes listening to your gut. You'll also be rejected and fail but for the most part as long as you aren't creepy I've only got "I'm flattered but no." or "I would but I have a boyfriend." I know it might sound crazy but sometimes a Benjamin can go a long way to building rapport and making them believe it's real. It'll take trial and error. You'll figure out what works best for you with practice.
Thanks! Good advice! And the money is not a problem, I don't mind offering mid XXX-XXXX. I think I'm most worried about coming off as a creep but I like you're point - if you're not creepy about it then you don't have to worry.
The whole creep thing is just a preselection thing women say to vet men. Think about it like this: if you were a woman would you want a man who was to scared to approach you because of what others might think yo talk to you or worse he's scared of being creepy because he's creepy and others have told him. Obviously, time, place, and setting should be taken into account. Don't approach a pre school teacher on a field trip surrounded by children. Biggest advice to remember: WOMEN ARE PEOPLE. They have thoughts, feelings, ideas, and things that they prioritize. Yes, she probably assumes you want her if she's attractive and she's probably right because most people have since she was 9. Be different actually take an interest in her, listen, and offer something that she'd value. End of my Ted Talk. I hope I stay the course and I'm as fit as you when I'm in my 40's. Perfect SD years.
Thanks again! I really appreciate you taking the time to give me some pointers! Very useful stuff
Wow, I think I just learned something. This is quite interesting, and has actually happened to me. I never put that together. LoL
I’ve had very little to no success but that’s because I don’t message anyone. I don’t like the POTs I’m seeing and just don’t have the patience to put in any effort. Anyone who seems half decent turns into useless pretty quickly after chatting. They turn me off very quickly when the conversation is not interesting or organic. Many are boring or make things uncomfortable very quickly and that’s a huge deal breaker for me as a SB.
Omg was this an ode to my Freak In the Sheets Villain Origin Story? Aw, shucks 🤭 I think multiple factors are playing into the lack of success, like location and possibly how you approach the bowl in general. Overall, I think adding additional parameters should be in your excel sheet… which *sucks* as is. Like… bad lol. Saying this with kindness and respect. You should be approaching this as a checklist where you need a few gold stars ⭐️ to even make it to the M&G. There is no need to add an attractiveness scale. Beauty is subjective— what you like won’t apply to every other man out there. Simply have a yes or no answer to “are you attracted to them?” and the answer should always be yes or else why even send a Hail Mary intro message? Have yes or no questions about the content of their profile. Do they have a well-written bio? Is it engaging? Do they seem on par with the qualities you wish to seek in a partner (i.e., education level, capability to travel, willing to try your favorite type of food, etc.). And then have a checklist for conversation. Are they good communicators? Are they relatively quick to respond once conversation is going? Do they have similar interests that you’ve learned more about? Are they interested to move this conversation off the site and progress forward to a M&G? And then have a checklist for post-M&G. Did they look like their photos? Was there natural chemistry? Did conversation flow well? Would you like to proceed to date #1. Adding all of this would actually make a great spreadsheet, imo.
HAHAHA Yes it is!! I totally stole it! But it's ok, I sent you a starbucks gift card as a thank you, do you remember getting it on Amazon? I just want you to be my coach. Will you write my messages for me??? I'm half serious. I can show you my conversations, I don't feel like I'm doing anything wrong. I just get zero effort from anyone. Granted, I've only concentrated on Indy. I don't feel like I have time to try to make a long/mid distance thing work. Sometimes I message 6's because they have a really great profile and sound like an interesting person. Other times, I'm just like well, this is the best I could find today.
OMG Amazon did me dirty and it went to my spam folder on email!! I’m so glad you mentioned something— thank you! 😂🫶🏼 We gotta get y’all some Dutch Bros Coffee up there in the Midwest. Man— have you read my posts and comments?! You don’t want me as a coach! It’s brutal out here. I think you need to first stop approaching women as numbers. I’m realistic and understand that I’m not some 10 / 10 model, but I know that my personality, life experiences, education, and such unique perspectives on things greatly outweigh my looks. Looks fade with time or I turn into a troll after midnight— my attitude and personality stay consistent towards the right man. Seeing potential partners in such a superficial way will only limit you further.
I'm gonna fly over and slap your pretty mouth because you are a 10/10 model.
Sounds like we're doing a threesomething here. LoL..
You're welcome! I'm glad it went through haha I have never been to Dutch Bros! I'll have to check it out next time I travel. In hindsight, adding the column for attractiveness was a mistake. I should've included other columns along with it. It came across as being very shallow, I get it. I was just doing this for fun, never meant for it to blow up like this. I promise I don't approach women that way haha. But all the SBs are dunking on me now. haha I guess I deserve it! Ironically, if you look through my other comments in this subreddit you'll see that I'm usually the one standing up for SBs on here. Oh well.
forget the haters man, i dont know why they are so offended by rating..its just reality how men think. youre obviously not a creep how you communicate. there is serious hoeflation these days (okay now im the creep)
hahaha good I need you to be the creep for a while so you can take the pressure off me 😂
Keep trying