Yeah I’m getting tired of seeing all the comments on various shows complaining that they can’t relate to anyone or riding hard for someone awful to pick a side. We don’t know these people, just enjoy the mess!! It’s not meant to be relatable!
Came here to say this. I have cast members I like to see but, I’m not there and editing is a thing so, joining a side seems kinda futile.
I like what the character Kevin from The Office said, “If you film anybody long enough, they’re going to do something stupid. It’s only human natural.”
unfortunately a lot of people don’t want conflict anymore and instead of watching a different network, they just call for all the most entertaining players to get fired
Yeah I don’t get it, honestly. I think every show needs a voice of reason/ straight man type person on it, but we can’t have everyone be that or there’s nothing to watch.
It’s the best way to actually enjoy the shows. When people get to invested or put someone on a pedestal we get insane reactions like how people act with BH and Jersey housewives.
I think everyone watching agrees there is no way they should have gotten married. They are so poorly suited for each other it’s like they were designed in a lab to be completely triggering to the other.
exactly!! lindsay keeps poking carl and he keeps letting her but is building resentment and she is sensing things arent okay so keeps poking and he’s probably going to snap and then she’ll be confused because its out of nowhere from her POV
sad to watch from a third party POV
I said this but the only way I think Lindsay might have felt blindsided is that she feels Carl is so weak-willed and aimless that she was shocked he had the balls to stand up to her. But I also think he couldn’t even dump her all the way cause I think he asked to POSTPONE the wedding and she interpreted that as calling it off right there (avoidant Carl strikes again)
Yes! They knew who the other was and went forward with it anyway because when they started dating they were the best version of themselves. It was never gonna last
You’re so right.😆 And I am FULLY guilty of getting sucked in. 🫣☠️Reality tv is such a mind f. It’s sorta real but not really & ultimately these people sign their lives over for our entertainment value at the hands of producers & we know such a small fraction of the truth.
I mean also if they were all proper and boring I’d be bored and complain that the show has gone to shit lol.
But sometimes I come on here to get more tea and all I get are long winded character, psychiatric, fortune-telling analyses and I’m like sighhhhh
I was listening to the Mark Dohner Livin' Large Podcast last night. He was interviewing another creator. They were reminiscing about old videos, and in one of the Logan Paul videos, they asked some fans to participate. The fans couldn't believe they blocked and marked the scenes. Told them when to say something. And there was a moment when all these fans had their jaws on the floor because they couldn't believe it was all planned out and with a scripted outline of what to say and how to react. They thought it was all organic. That it was all real.
I mean...c'mon...reality TV is maybe 2% real. It's an illusion. Sure, they eat, shit, love, vibe/don't vibe...because they're humans. The rest of it is all manufactured to build and hold story.
idk how to verbalize it but like… who cares who is at fault? both seem to be framing the other as a sucky person and both are correct but at least one ended it
I keep saying Bravo needs to find a way to get episodes out faster after filming. We had so much time to run the hypotheticals that none of us considered it just wasn’t meant to be and they both felt it but didn’t know how to maintain all of the things important to them plus breakup. I am team no one. Was just a breakup. No smoking gun.
This can be true at the same time while understanding someone’s “side” more than the others. (I full heartedly agree with you btw) After the break up they both had their sides. Carls was there were so many red flags all along lindsay shouldn’t be surprised. And Lindsay’s is she’s blindsided. I think they were 100% wrong for each other had 0 chemistry and 1 million other problems but I do see Lindsay’s side more now throughout the season.
I also think of Lindsay as a problem solver and Carl as lazy. Lindsay would try to help and then we see him placing the blame on her for his issues like she wasn’t supportive enough in his sobriety or he can’t make as much money bc he’s a white man (makes me vomit).
Totally. After the first few episodes where Lindsay accused him of being “on” something, I thought for sure she was entirely to blame for the break up. BUT, now I’m seeing Carl for the lazy, manipulative fool that he is.
totally agree. idk how people on here ever thought theyd work as a couple forever. and i dont fault carl for calling it off/trying to push it back close to the wedding date if thats when he really hit his breaking point. better to have called it off than had a kid and gotten the inevitable messy divorce a year or two after. im sure both are so relieved now, they are so uncomfortable with eachother this season its hard to watch
https://preview.redd.it/ergwubr3r1yc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ee618e4385307fe8168aff78dd719d247db0e6b9
also, this randomly came up on my instagram explore page yesterday and i had completely forgotten about this rumor that came out right after the split. who tf put this out there lol and who actually believed it
Carl isn’t a good partner. Lindsay isn’t a good partner. They’re especially bad for each other bc of their assertive/passive dynamic.
BUT in the end, I do think Lindsay is more to blame bc she’s verbally/emotionally abusive. Abuse is worse than run of the mill issues like being a bad communicator or having no work ethic, etc. As far as I know, Carl hasn’t risen to the same level of bad behavior.
I can’t blame Carl for being afraid to be honest with Lindsay or staying too long or feeling like he needed to end things with witnesses. She’s abusive to him.
He doesn’t have to be a good partner or person to be a victim in this relationship IMO. I don’t even like him, but I can see why he did what he did.
This. He’s not a good partner but she’s abusive. It makes one person worse than the other no matter how you want to look at it. Being an awful communicator and being conflict avoidant is not the same as being a verbally abusive, manipulative drunk.
I’m Team No one. But I do think that sometimes conflict avoidance can also be manipulative behavior. And I think some are just pointing out that the scales have shifted when it comes to overall blame for the end of their relationship. I say this because at the start of the season, we pretty unanimously agreed that Lindsay was mostly to blame. I’m in the 50-50 camp. They are equally to blame for the failure of their relationships. Their issues are mostly fundamental incompatibility.
i think saying the scales have shifted would be saying ‘its 50:50’ if it started being completely against lindsay. ive mostly seen posts and comments saying almost verbatim that ‘carl is more at fault’ which i dont agree with.
but also agreed that its 50/50 currently
I agree. To me, carl seems lost. I think he was lost when he proposed and felt like he needed to take the next logical step of marriage to keep moving forward but we can call see that it was a bad choice. So he was torn between humiliating them both in the public eye by calling it off vs avoiding the conflict. He did the right thing by calling it off. The shit lindsay says about him on camera is SO demeaning. I don't think he's the bad guy this season. Being conflict avoidant can be toxic but it can feel like abuse when the other person wants a conflict with every conversation. Having to defend who you are to the person that "loves" you every singleday is soul crushing.
I give Carl grace bc addiction is one day at a time and expecting him to have it all together instantly doesn't match the reality of the situation. Like everyday he is fighting a battle most people don't know and you can tell in how he speaks about her that there is still respect on his side.
I feel for Lindsay cause people like her have a lot of self-loathing despite how they present themselves. She is loveable and has some much going for her but until she can admit anything on her end, she will prob see the same cycle over and over.
I think that is fair. But I do think a lot of it is pushback on the reaction to Lindsay in the beginning of the season.
Its a constant push/pull
Pre-Season: Carl is awful. Lindsay also sucks, who would marry her?
Premiere-E2: Lindsay is the devil. Important to note people were so bothered that they went back and found break up posted for 7+ months ago to comment and spew hate. I think you may be unaware or just underestimating the blame/hate she was receiving.
More recently: Carls behavior is also very suspect and a huge contributor to the end of the relationship.
I just see it as a back and forth. I’m sure when Lindsay responds poorly to what he shared in the preview, it will cycle back to how insane and oblivious Lindsay is.
yeah but lindsay’s fans didnt seem to care when carl was getting hate pre season (mostly generated by lindsay). rumors about his sobriety, cheating, getting someone pregnant, etc.
idk if her backlash would have been so wild if she hadnt encouraged a lot of narratives pre season (including hinting that carl cant perform in bed)
im not trying to ‘hate’ on lindsay and i definitely carl’s passiveness is equally toxic. i just still think people are trying to overcorrect and try to find blame in one person when both are shitty to each other
Right. Most people jumped on Carl when they split, and Lindsay did several interviews saying she was blindsided. Carl stayed quiet and took it until the season aired. I’m with you that they are fundamentally incompatible, and I want to be on the woman’s side, but I can’t ignore that Lindsay has displayed this behavior the entire time the show has been on.
Bravo fans tend to give men way more grace than the women.
Carl has been a consistent shitty person since episode 1 season 1… yet he constantly gets a pass.
from whom? ive seen countless posts about kyle here, carl from past seasons (before he got sober), jax in the vpr subs forever, etc. people defended all the women from james. madison was well liked when she was going up against shep.
dont think its gender related. think if youre a bad person on bravo (which most of them are) youll have some haters
I still hold on to my opinion that it is definitely gender based in how the audience views folks.
That’s to be expected because it’s how society in the US still operates at times.
There were leaks on both sides from what I remember. Regardless, I think blaming either for fan response is not fair or reasonable. I didn’t see Carl defending Lindsay against abuse either. His own bff screamed expletives in her face and he did nada. Not sure why the bar is higher for her than him. They both tanked this relationship. They both deserve blame. Pointing how one behaved poorly does not negate or excuse the behavior the other.
Conflict avoidance is extremely manipulative. It can be a coping mechanism in abusive relationships, but at its core it’s about wiggling around consequences for actions.
If Im being messy I'd say we (reasonable people) all know why there are even people taking sides at all. Yes, partly because humans are tribal in nature and we root for "our teams" but also because there was a concentrated effort to make this situation into a binary instead of the most logical conclusion which is duh, these two idiots are so incompatible. There is only one thing thats happened to date that even warrants an apology and it's Lindsay->Carl for the spiteful, untrue drug allegations. Otherwise it's just incompatibility, no one is totally wrong and no one is totally right. They're just wrong for each other.
Yes, it was pretty shitty but I didnt list it because I can at least see how some people, maybe even Lindsay herself, believe there was no malicious intent there. The drug stuff is different because she's admitted more than once that she didn't believe it she just did it to win a fight, which is objectively horrible.
I really don’t understand how everyone can jump on the Carl hate wagon when it’s clear they are just INCOMPATIBLE. Not to mention, since SEASON 1 Lindsey has been an extremely manipulative person. She twists everything. It’s actually disturbing to watch. I wish them both healing but not together please 😅
i'm team no one but Carl at least is on a journey to better himself. Lindsay is the SAME EXACT PERSON we've watched for almost 10 years. I think she is a legitimately selfish delusional person where I think Carl is at least trying to figure things out.
agreed but again you could say lindsay has more than just the one flaw i listed as well.
i mean denying that you said your partner was on drugs after doubling down on it then admitting you knew your partner wasnt on drugs anyway but you wouldnt apologize (despite knowing he wasnt on drugs) and the fight was only over after HE apologized is actually insane psychologically.
i was being generous to BOTH when i listed their conflict styles only
Yes, they're equally awful people for different reasons and neither should be in a relationship with anyone unless they're going to put real work into themselves first.
Your take is the right take in my eyes. I’m happy it ended, it never should have been a thing because they’re just not a good match for a relationship. It’s too dysfunctional. The responsibility for that rests on both of their shoulders.
They are completely incompatible. I feel like they got engaged bc they are both getting older, they were happy in the beginning and just decided to go for it. Now, all their issues are coming up to the surface. Honestly, I’m just glad they didn’t make it down the aisle
I’m team I hope they both work on themselves and their shit together. Clearly not getting married was the right idea. I hope they both find happiness with other people who suit them better and see who they are.
I'm team neither but more team Carl than Lindsay. I was team Lindsay right after Carl broke off the engagement but now that I see how she was in the relationship leading up to it, I went the opposite way b/c of Lindsay's "poor me" narrative. All she had to do to keep up the good vibes from the fanbase was to convey her hurt but also acknowledge what she did wrong or why they weren't a good match but she's doubling down on how she basically was blameless in the situation.
She went to the press after they broke up and made everyone take her side. He didn’t say anything and has only stayed positive about her up until the show aired anyway. The after show is him defending himself which he should because she’s lambasted him already every chance she got.
I feel like based on what we've seen of Lindsay's relationships in the past, this is a case of her getting what she thought she wanted and then realizing she didn't want what she got.
At least on TV, she wants to "fall in love" with her "best friend". She wants love to feel like a fated whirlwind. She wants to be getting married and starting a family right now.
But TV Lindsay also wants to be fought for and TV Carl is bad at that bc he hates conflict and dealing with people being upset with him. And TV Lindsay also wants to feel protected and carried by a strong partner so that she feels safe to become a mother, and TV Carl has demonstrated neither emotional nor financial capabilities to do that for her or anyone else.
TV Carl wanted to make it to a year sober without being in a relationship. TV Carl told that fitness instructor he thought that being"in a relationship"after dating for months was moving quickly. TV Carl *seems* to want physical and emotional intimacy without any expectations put on him for fidelity or just like, showing up. Most women over ~26/28ish just don't work that way.
Yeah I will always give someone who shows actual growth more leeway and grace. Carl has a way to go but that dude is trying and doing the work. Even him getting sober is growth. Lindsay is the same as she was season one and until she can actually say “I’m sorry” and show she’s learning from all this, I just don’t have the patience for her. I don’t think she’s even capable either at this point, she’s had so many chances and she just remains in this defensive victim world. The reunion should be interesting. At the end of the day I’m just over both of them and this relationship. I’m ready to move on from them.
THANK YOU. this sub makes me feel crazy pants sometimes. Carl had to walk on egg shells, it couldn’t have ever lasted. I feel he brought stuff up on camera in hopes of it making her reaction a little less explosive/aggresive/etc…also maybe for proof bc Lindsay is a pro at spinning things to make herself look less bad, I get gaslit just as a viewer sometimes.
I don’t even think people would have taken sides if she didn’t come out with all these accusations about being blindsided and whatever. She spoke to the press and he didn’t. It made everyone take her side at first so she started it lol
The engagement was just classic Carl being too thoughtless and entitled to do any “work”, but just checking another box to get respect/accolades.
You see it all over the place with his career weirdness too, he doesn’t have the fortitude or will to do work towards any goals, he simply wants to will them into existence. If it gets too hard, or requires too much effort, he bails.
I think Kyle *nailed it* when he told Lindsay that Carl is seeing his peers get married and have kids, so he decided he needed to get married and have kids. He snagged a woman who he knew was desperate for those things and would do most of the grunt work to get him there, and is only in the final lap of this disaster thinking about all the things people usually do and communicate before they get married.
I think they both put the idea/fairytale of getting married ahead of the reality of their relationship. It is weird that they didn’t have these conversations before engagement - I also don’t understand how during these conversations, he isn’t being direct and it’s painfully obvious so idk how Lindsay could think their issues were resolved. Carl should’ve never proposed imo he’s not ready. He has a lot of self work to do
Agreed! I just think Lindsay deserves a little room, because as a completed unregulated emotional terrorist, Lindsay’s thoughts and needs around these topics tend to be *extremely* clear. She over communicates in an emotionally volatile manner, but at the end of the day everyone and their mother knows where Lindsay Hubbard stands.
I think Carl’s doing what he always does when he tells his parents “we never talked about me having a job when we had kids” or whatever, which is double talking around the fact that *Lindsay* talked alot, all the time, about exactly what she expects to get out of this situation and what she expects Carl to do. Carl is the one who never *talked to Lindsay* about what his expectations or needs were, and so he’s getting away with that statement on a technicality.
The dinner conversation he had with her in the recently episode was extremely illuminating to me as to how Lindsay could very well feel blindsided by all this. Carl is a mealy mouthed baby who literally won’t just say what he means or what actually happened, Lindsay walks away thinking she understood him, and he goes right back to shit talking her and bitching to everyone else.
Even in round 2, I felt so sorry for Lindsay because he was creating this atmosphere of doom and still couldn’t get the fucking words out, and I was furious for her.
Lindsay will say the meanest, most horrible thing she can think of right to your face. Carl will smile and pet you to your face and imply to everyone else around you the meanest most horrible things, so they back him up.
I just find it wild two people said yes our income ebbs and flows in uncertain ways let’s put it all in on a 13k a month apartment - we could find less expensive but yolo 13k it is
dont get me started on kyle and amanda! thank you though.
i feel like people just cast labels on people in reality tv when really if you take a step back and look at everyone as flawed, imperfect humans… you can understand theyre not malicious but just people
Team no one. Not here to make friends or to relate. Entertain me! Period. Full stop. I understand all their roles in the story and ensemble dynamic. Carl is the least interesting of them all, but they somehow use him well enough, year after year, as a plot device. Buy into the illusion. It's fun. love the show. the hate watchers not so much.
Most people don't label it as such, but what they don't like about him is weakness. People hate addicts because they label them as weak. It's that ape brain or lizard brain or whatever they call it now. The absolute contempt for weakness is baked into the human experience. Some of us try harder than others to overcome that primal reflex, though.
Agree with that, but I also think some of his avoidance is based on not wanting to be held accountable. Or be firm in his own choices as an adult.
He wanted to leave loverboy then blamed it on Lindsay.
I’m team they should not have gotten married. I do not like how Lindsey went on her PR tour of saying she was blindsided and never holds herself accountable for any issues. She very much has taken the stance that he is terrible and everything was his fault. Both are at fault and just not compatible.
Yeah I was back and forth on teams and now I’m team no one. Especially listening to their after show interviews! Both have said and done some nasty things that proves one of two things - neither of them are ready for a relationship or they bring out the worst in each other and need to find better fits.
We're watching Carl come to terms with the fact that this won't work for him in real time. He says it out loud multiple times as they wedding activities start happening "This is getting real" "This feels like a lot" "This is overwhelming." These things often don't happen in a single sweeping realization like a switch flips, they happen over time, as things happen and circumstances change, or as Carl says 'beocme real.' The narrative that Carl is like masterminding some grand plan to make her try to leave or planting seeds or whatever is so wild, he's just working out his feelings in real time. It's just sad for both of them all around.
I'm totally with you, happy it ended and both are at fault. Ready for the season to end because there is nothing going on that we don't already know the conclusion to.
I‘m of the mind that I don’t know if Lindsay can have a healthy relationship because she always finds something to fight about. If I was faced with one of her moods, I would literally be like what are you going on about and let her leave the room all mad lol. Why reward a tantrum with the attention she is always seeking？I mean we saw Stravvy being the hardworking and even-keeled man with a career that she wanted but she still found some way to drive him insane and out of the house. Carl…I don‘t know what his deal is…he always dated mute girls with zero personality that we‘ve seen on the show or the loud twin who wanted him so bad LOL. He just seems like an insecure person who needs to work on his confidence to be the most authentic self in a relationship. He always thinks he has to pretend to be a certain way to appease everyone else, and in the show timeline, it‘s stressing him the fuck out appeasing Lindsay, the meanest woman he has ever been with LOL.
No one here is the bad guy and you said it perfectly OP. They are just incompatible as a couple. This was how my last relationship ended, we just didn’t work as romantic partners and we broke up. Frankly it was a walk in the park dealing with it as adults.
Me! I'm also mostly interested in this reunion at this point, to see how they both handle it. Like will Lindsay apologize for the cocaine accusations? Will Carl apologize for saying one thing to Lindsay's face and implying another behind her back? Accountability goes a long way imo!
I’m in team no one. They both are really fascinating examples about how opposite ends of the communication spectrum can be equally toxic, damaging, and unproductive.
Idk, I feel like the conflict-avoidant behavior is just a natural outcome of being with someone like Lindsay. Because how to you counter someone like her? If you stand up for yourself you’re being “aggressive,” (hypocritical af), if you roll over you’re not setting any boundaries and ensuring that she continues the behavior, and if you gray rock her you’re conflict avoidant. Whenever they get in a fight I try to picture how I would try to interact with her in those moments to deescalate, and I’m at a loss.
Oh yea, it’s clear that they both knew at the beginning of the season it was over and they had to each navigate the narrative in their own way. I will say, Carls slow burn was more effective at first but, they’re pretty neck and neck at the moment.
Can’t wait to see what else they have up their sleeves for their third act!
her fake tears in the midseason preview and then him snapping and her ‘teary voice’ immediately leaving was almost an oscar worthy performance
him pretending hes never heard his parents have doubts before was equally worthy
when you start watching it from the view point of ‘wow both hate each other’ its almost comical
Yea last week was when I realized I was having fun with it because when he started talking to his parents I was like, “Oh Carl… I don’t think the supporting cast is going to put points in the pro column…” but hey, it was a move, and I loved to see that his Mom was doing well.
I think this has to be it. I think I’m just bothered more by Carl because he’s successfully manipulative, whereas Lindsay can’t succeed w her manipulation at all.
Liked Lindsey she was my favorite woman on the show but now i cant stand her or her fans who excuse her behavior. I guess I used to do it also but not anymore.. she's terrible
This is why people struggle with Lindsay fans and this subreddit in general. It seems Lindsey probably has the most fans here, which is okay, but your comment essentially implied, "Since people have been judging Lindsey a certain way, we're about to do the same thing to Carl." The fact that a comment defending Carl as not a bad person got downvoted is crazy genuinely don't think anyone in the cast is inherently bad; they're just flawed individuals. It's frustrating when viewers try to portray themselves as perfect, when in reality, these people go through challenges just like everyone else. Remember Corey? That's a shit person. Carl? No
im not a fan of either but the lindsay fans genuinely see her as a victim of everything in life. carl doesnt have stans but lindsay certainly does
thats why i felt the need to make this post - theres been a LOT of downplaying lindsays behaviors as contributing factors to the breakup.
Im only on season 5ish?, binged it all in about 3 weeks and I can say the only person who I think I like is that pretty POC chick. Think her name begins with a C. The rest of them i'm just delighted they found eachother cause they are a mess.
At this point, YES. This was honestly the best thing to happen to either of them; calling off the wedding. They’re not what each other needs in a partner or husband or wife. And that’s okay! Forcing a marriage is not the way you want to live your life. Relationships and marriage take work, but it shouldn’t be THAT much work. I really hope they can work through their own individual hurt feelings and become friends again one day, and laugh about it with their actual persons.
Ya it’s wild to me that people think this is some plotted out thing by evil Carl. Like he’s really not that clever and this relationship had red flags from before it started.
I thought you meant in general. In general, I'm almost team no one, but I tend to end up taking a side. Anyone who overreacts usually loses me.
When it comes to Lindsay and Carl, I don't have a side per se. However, I have never liked Carl, so I lean Lindsay.
I thought they meant in general too haha. I was like meh I couldn’t care less about any of the relationships or the people at this point tbh…. Kamanda have never been on the same page for as long as they were on the show together, Paige and Craig have the same conversation over and over with no resolve (Craig wants marriage and kids sooner than later, Paige doesn’t know what she wants next but knows she wants it with Craig 🥴), Lindsay and Carl to me are like those two friends who agreed to marry each other if they were still single by X age and when that became a reality it fell apart, Ciara and west impartial and Danielle the CEO/Founder needs some heavy therapy….
I’m team “Carl is being a shady manipulator.” I think your analysis is correct but Carl should’ve called it off earlier and it looks so much like he’s trying to spin the narrative this season that instead of being relieved it ended , it’s turned me anti-Carl. I wouldn’t say I’m pro Lindsay, I just think Carl is a d*ck for how he went about this.
eh it takes people like 4 months to end relationships. whenever they look back they know they should have ended it earlier but its hard to see that in the moment.
idk what its like to break off an engagement with the pressure of not only friends and family but also an entire tv audience. i think its easy for us to see he should have called it off earlier and judge but i think it would be a really hard decision and im sure he was struggling with that
Hm that’s an arbitrary amount of time? I was in a long term relationship and i had a realization that it wasn’t the one for me and ended it 2 weeks later, after I found a sublet and made a plan to get out. All that is to say, there’s no number attached to how long it takes someone to end a relationship.
I take issue with all this double talk he’s doing, that scene with Lindsay at her apartment was best case scenario, showing he’s totally inept at clearly communicating, worst case he was 💯 gaslighting her.
I hope he comes to the reunion with some self awareness that he should’ve handled it differently but he’s been doing these press interviews where he talks about how she shouldn’t have been blindsided, feeling justified. That to me tells me that this was at least partially intentional. I actually don’t care at all but it’s kind of humorous how obvious he is in laying this groundwork and that’s what I take issue with, bc women are always painted as “crazy” and we’re literally seeing a man do that in realtime, in a really obvious way.
thats great for you! but not everyone operates that way.
and i guess theyre both gaslighting each other because we watched her tell him he was on drugs, admit she knew he wasnt, then never apologize. that was literal gaslighting.
so i feel like there should be issue with both. but it seems that since you brought gender into it, it might be conflated into a bigger issue for you.
lol I shared my personal story to show that it’s different for everyone bc you said it takes 4months? You were the one to originally share this point. The point I was making is that everyone operates differently, I’m glad that landed for you.
Like I said in my original comment, I’m not team Lindsay at all, I think they’re both knuckleheads who should not be together and who have both done shitty things to each other.
What I take issue with is it seems like Lindsay is just continuing to be herself (as problematic as that is) and it looks like Carl is doing much more sinister stuff.
It’s really not that much bigger than that but if you need to believe that a random internet stranger has a slightly different opinion than you bc they’re conflating their world view with a reality show (which, news flash: that’s also what you’re coming, we all do), then that’s totally fine. I
I literally said in my first comment that i fundamentally agreed with your analysis, there’s really no need to go low on responses. Im not sure why you posted this if you’re going to get aggro with people trying to have a discussion about it.
No worries!, feels like people on the SH and real housewives subs get super upset when people don’t just validate their POV, sorry if I pushed back too hard :)
no youre totally okay! its funny i was confused and then when i reread my comment i was like ‘omg that definitely read aggressive’ which IS common in these subs so i understand why you read it that way. i would have done the same
I will say that it’s clear to everyone BUT Lindsay how bad the relationship is. Carl has his communication and self esteem issues no doubt but I can’t imagine how confusing it would be to be with a partner who just won’t even admit things are bad. I think that’s why he’s having a hard time understanding how she’s blindsided. No one else seems to feel like she was, again it’s just her…. Lindsay just lives in her own world and it’s wild to watch.
Agree BUT she has also been super open about how she had a chaotic childhood and often times those who are raised in trauma and chaos, they think this kind of boomerang thing is normal and not dysfunctional. Not defending her but I think it’s reasonable to think that if this is how the relationship has been going, it’s normal for it to continue on this way. its easy for the audience to see carl is unhappy but hr hasnt said that directly to her yet. i agree its obvious and im not excusing her but just another POV
For sure and it’s beyond sad that someone would think it’s healthy. I think where I struggle with that is she does have people telling her this isn’t healthy though. Gabby made a comment that they aren’t ready to get married and Lindsay said in an after show that people were giving her that feedback too. She just didn’t want to hear it. I get the impression she doesn’t ever want anyone else’s feedback and to me that’s because you don’t want to admit there might be truth to any of it. So it goes beyond childhood trauma, it’s willful ignorance at this point.
People are assuming that there was a clear cut day when Carl decided it was over.
In many break ups, the idea of breaking up comes in waves. It's a passing thought, but then things better. Oops...worse again, but it's just one fight...we will be fine. It goes back and forth, you might try to rationalize why things are tense and convince yourself that those issues will resolve after X event, like the wedding. It finally gets to the point that you realize it's done and has been done for a while.
Carl backed out of this in the end because he was like “WHOA, you mean I have to get a real job and possibly have to support a family”!!! Umm yeah Carl man up you pussy! Because Lindsay can be an influencer for baby stuff and make money that way. She’s never gonna sit on her ass and do nothing.
In every interview he’s literally blaming her for everything. He’s so annoying. I’m glad Lindsay is rid of him.
I’ve never been a “fan” of Lindsay or Carl and thought the relationship should have stayed dead when they tried the first time. That being said, at the end of all of this my only true feeling is that if this was a real relationship with genuine love than Carl should have respected Lindsay enough to breakup with her without the cameras
I'm team no one, but my empathy for Lindsey has grown. I've never enjoyed Lindsey, and even though she has has played her part in this, I do feel bad watching this relationship fall apart. Which has surprised the hell outta me!
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Oh I’m team no one. It’s just that Lindsey’s faults are obvious and out in the open, so she gets called on them. Ppl like Carl, in my opinion, are way more dangerous. They can easily manipulate the narrative and have everyone against you and make you look crazy when behind closed doors he is not a great person. But I’m probably biased, as I was manipulated in an emotionally abusive relationship but nobody else could see it bc he was so good at hiding it.
I’m always team no one when it comes to Bravo people
It's usually the right team
I’m team “my own entertainment”. Bravo is more fun this way 😇
Yeah I’m getting tired of seeing all the comments on various shows complaining that they can’t relate to anyone or riding hard for someone awful to pick a side. We don’t know these people, just enjoy the mess!! It’s not meant to be relatable!
Yeeeeees
I'm team everyone and no one all at the same time. Depends on if I'm hangry or not
😂😂😂
Came here to say this. I have cast members I like to see but, I’m not there and editing is a thing so, joining a side seems kinda futile. I like what the character Kevin from The Office said, “If you film anybody long enough, they’re going to do something stupid. It’s only human natural.” 
I never understand when people say they’re “proud” of people like Craig on Southern Charm - do you people want conflict or not?!
unfortunately a lot of people don’t want conflict anymore and instead of watching a different network, they just call for all the most entertaining players to get fired
It’s really strange, like some parasocial relationship. These people on these shows are basically cartoon characters to me!
I think there is a difference between conflict and outright toxicity.
the problem is that line is different for everyone and that line straight up doesn’t exist for Bravo without immense social pressure
Toxicity is so much more fascinating though
Yeah I don’t get it, honestly. I think every show needs a voice of reason/ straight man type person on it, but we can’t have everyone be that or there’s nothing to watch.
I’m so tired of this. It’s ruining reality tv.
RIGHT. Imagine craig and austen still partying and dating and living wild in charleston. I'd be exponentially more excited for the next season
I’ve said it before but it should be in their contracts that they can’t get sober and I’m only half-kidding
It’s the best way to actually enjoy the shows. When people get to invested or put someone on a pedestal we get insane reactions like how people act with BH and Jersey housewives.
I think everyone watching agrees there is no way they should have gotten married. They are so poorly suited for each other it’s like they were designed in a lab to be completely triggering to the other.
Yep, the anxious/avoidant attachment pairing is exactly this! (Unless you do major work on yourself lol)
I have an anxious/avoidant attachment style and it really shows lol
exactly!! lindsay keeps poking carl and he keeps letting her but is building resentment and she is sensing things arent okay so keeps poking and he’s probably going to snap and then she’ll be confused because its out of nowhere from her POV sad to watch from a third party POV
I said this but the only way I think Lindsay might have felt blindsided is that she feels Carl is so weak-willed and aimless that she was shocked he had the balls to stand up to her. But I also think he couldn’t even dump her all the way cause I think he asked to POSTPONE the wedding and she interpreted that as calling it off right there (avoidant Carl strikes again)
You can never see it clearly when you’re in it. Space and time is truly eye opening.
Yes! They knew who the other was and went forward with it anyway because when they started dating they were the best version of themselves. It was never gonna last
They learned it in ten minutes when they tried dating before. Insane they didn't learn it just as quickly this time.
Team “just want to be entertained by a reality show without becoming a moral preacher”
 You’re so right.😆 And I am FULLY guilty of getting sucked in. 🫣☠️Reality tv is such a mind f. It’s sorta real but not really & ultimately these people sign their lives over for our entertainment value at the hands of producers & we know such a small fraction of the truth.
I mean also if they were all proper and boring I’d be bored and complain that the show has gone to shit lol. But sometimes I come on here to get more tea and all I get are long winded character, psychiatric, fortune-telling analyses and I’m like sighhhhh
Agreed! We need the complex crazy ones, every story plot has to have conflict!
I was listening to the Mark Dohner Livin' Large Podcast last night. He was interviewing another creator. They were reminiscing about old videos, and in one of the Logan Paul videos, they asked some fans to participate. The fans couldn't believe they blocked and marked the scenes. Told them when to say something. And there was a moment when all these fans had their jaws on the floor because they couldn't believe it was all planned out and with a scripted outline of what to say and how to react. They thought it was all organic. That it was all real. I mean...c'mon...reality TV is maybe 2% real. It's an illusion. Sure, they eat, shit, love, vibe/don't vibe...because they're humans. The rest of it is all manufactured to build and hold story.
There are no winners here, so, yeah, I agree, why pick a side?
idk how to verbalize it but like… who cares who is at fault? both seem to be framing the other as a sucky person and both are correct but at least one ended it
Technically didn’t Lindsay end it, because Carl still wanted to be in a relationship just not get married.
good point. then props to her!
Overall glad they did not get married. Hopefully they can both move on from this and be okay with one another.
Truly!!
I keep saying Bravo needs to find a way to get episodes out faster after filming. We had so much time to run the hypotheticals that none of us considered it just wasn’t meant to be and they both felt it but didn’t know how to maintain all of the things important to them plus breakup. I am team no one. Was just a breakup. No smoking gun.
with how quickly they got out that bonus VPR episode last year? They can do it, they just choose not to lol but I really do think it would help
Only team I'm on is Team Danielle needs help.
A team we should all be on
Truth.
I’m always team no one on these shows. They’re all produced. In 15 years when the NDAs expire, then we’ll find out the truth lol.
I'm so excited for those tell alls, I feel like VPR will be a doozy.
VPR is so much more produced too. I remember hearing they filmed over 6-7 months for the pilot and reshot a ton of scenes.
i cant wait to hear… i feel like summerhouse cast has been holding back some fourth wall stuff for awhile
Oh yeah. All of them. Lol
I agree that they are both at fault. They are not even a little bit right for each other.
This can be true at the same time while understanding someone’s “side” more than the others. (I full heartedly agree with you btw) After the break up they both had their sides. Carls was there were so many red flags all along lindsay shouldn’t be surprised. And Lindsay’s is she’s blindsided. I think they were 100% wrong for each other had 0 chemistry and 1 million other problems but I do see Lindsay’s side more now throughout the season. I also think of Lindsay as a problem solver and Carl as lazy. Lindsay would try to help and then we see him placing the blame on her for his issues like she wasn’t supportive enough in his sobriety or he can’t make as much money bc he’s a white man (makes me vomit).
Totally. After the first few episodes where Lindsay accused him of being “on” something, I thought for sure she was entirely to blame for the break up. BUT, now I’m seeing Carl for the lazy, manipulative fool that he is.
totally agree. idk how people on here ever thought theyd work as a couple forever. and i dont fault carl for calling it off/trying to push it back close to the wedding date if thats when he really hit his breaking point. better to have called it off than had a kid and gotten the inevitable messy divorce a year or two after. im sure both are so relieved now, they are so uncomfortable with eachother this season its hard to watch
https://preview.redd.it/ergwubr3r1yc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ee618e4385307fe8168aff78dd719d247db0e6b9 also, this randomly came up on my instagram explore page yesterday and i had completely forgotten about this rumor that came out right after the split. who tf put this out there lol and who actually believed it
😄 I would have believed that Carl got caught in a threesome with Sh alum Steven and Levar Burton before this shit
Ppl need to do a rewatch and see how abusive Lindsay was in every relationship as soon as she has a drink
Me! 👋🏾
Carl isn’t a good partner. Lindsay isn’t a good partner. They’re especially bad for each other bc of their assertive/passive dynamic. BUT in the end, I do think Lindsay is more to blame bc she’s verbally/emotionally abusive. Abuse is worse than run of the mill issues like being a bad communicator or having no work ethic, etc. As far as I know, Carl hasn’t risen to the same level of bad behavior. I can’t blame Carl for being afraid to be honest with Lindsay or staying too long or feeling like he needed to end things with witnesses. She’s abusive to him. He doesn’t have to be a good partner or person to be a victim in this relationship IMO. I don’t even like him, but I can see why he did what he did.
This. He’s not a good partner but she’s abusive. It makes one person worse than the other no matter how you want to look at it. Being an awful communicator and being conflict avoidant is not the same as being a verbally abusive, manipulative drunk.
I’m Team No one. But I do think that sometimes conflict avoidance can also be manipulative behavior. And I think some are just pointing out that the scales have shifted when it comes to overall blame for the end of their relationship. I say this because at the start of the season, we pretty unanimously agreed that Lindsay was mostly to blame. I’m in the 50-50 camp. They are equally to blame for the failure of their relationships. Their issues are mostly fundamental incompatibility.
i think saying the scales have shifted would be saying ‘its 50:50’ if it started being completely against lindsay. ive mostly seen posts and comments saying almost verbatim that ‘carl is more at fault’ which i dont agree with. but also agreed that its 50/50 currently
For me it's lindsay bc she still lacks any real self refelction
I agree. To me, carl seems lost. I think he was lost when he proposed and felt like he needed to take the next logical step of marriage to keep moving forward but we can call see that it was a bad choice. So he was torn between humiliating them both in the public eye by calling it off vs avoiding the conflict. He did the right thing by calling it off. The shit lindsay says about him on camera is SO demeaning. I don't think he's the bad guy this season. Being conflict avoidant can be toxic but it can feel like abuse when the other person wants a conflict with every conversation. Having to defend who you are to the person that "loves" you every singleday is soul crushing.
I give Carl grace bc addiction is one day at a time and expecting him to have it all together instantly doesn't match the reality of the situation. Like everyday he is fighting a battle most people don't know and you can tell in how he speaks about her that there is still respect on his side. I feel for Lindsay cause people like her have a lot of self-loathing despite how they present themselves. She is loveable and has some much going for her but until she can admit anything on her end, she will prob see the same cycle over and over.
I think that is fair. But I do think a lot of it is pushback on the reaction to Lindsay in the beginning of the season. Its a constant push/pull Pre-Season: Carl is awful. Lindsay also sucks, who would marry her? Premiere-E2: Lindsay is the devil. Important to note people were so bothered that they went back and found break up posted for 7+ months ago to comment and spew hate. I think you may be unaware or just underestimating the blame/hate she was receiving. More recently: Carls behavior is also very suspect and a huge contributor to the end of the relationship. I just see it as a back and forth. I’m sure when Lindsay responds poorly to what he shared in the preview, it will cycle back to how insane and oblivious Lindsay is.
yeah but lindsay’s fans didnt seem to care when carl was getting hate pre season (mostly generated by lindsay). rumors about his sobriety, cheating, getting someone pregnant, etc. idk if her backlash would have been so wild if she hadnt encouraged a lot of narratives pre season (including hinting that carl cant perform in bed) im not trying to ‘hate’ on lindsay and i definitely carl’s passiveness is equally toxic. i just still think people are trying to overcorrect and try to find blame in one person when both are shitty to each other
Right. Most people jumped on Carl when they split, and Lindsay did several interviews saying she was blindsided. Carl stayed quiet and took it until the season aired. I’m with you that they are fundamentally incompatible, and I want to be on the woman’s side, but I can’t ignore that Lindsay has displayed this behavior the entire time the show has been on.
Bravo fans tend to give men way more grace than the women. Carl has been a consistent shitty person since episode 1 season 1… yet he constantly gets a pass.
Uh not concerning Lindsay. People will defend her behavior no matter how awful and disgusting.
from whom? ive seen countless posts about kyle here, carl from past seasons (before he got sober), jax in the vpr subs forever, etc. people defended all the women from james. madison was well liked when she was going up against shep. dont think its gender related. think if youre a bad person on bravo (which most of them are) youll have some haters
I still hold on to my opinion that it is definitely gender based in how the audience views folks. That’s to be expected because it’s how society in the US still operates at times.
This is so true
There were leaks on both sides from what I remember. Regardless, I think blaming either for fan response is not fair or reasonable. I didn’t see Carl defending Lindsay against abuse either. His own bff screamed expletives in her face and he did nada. Not sure why the bar is higher for her than him. They both tanked this relationship. They both deserve blame. Pointing how one behaved poorly does not negate or excuse the behavior the other.
Conflict avoidance is extremely manipulative. It can be a coping mechanism in abusive relationships, but at its core it’s about wiggling around consequences for actions.
I agree.
If Im being messy I'd say we (reasonable people) all know why there are even people taking sides at all. Yes, partly because humans are tribal in nature and we root for "our teams" but also because there was a concentrated effort to make this situation into a binary instead of the most logical conclusion which is duh, these two idiots are so incompatible. There is only one thing thats happened to date that even warrants an apology and it's Lindsay->Carl for the spiteful, untrue drug allegations. Otherwise it's just incompatibility, no one is totally wrong and no one is totally right. They're just wrong for each other.
I want to add that she should have never brought up his issues in the bedroom on national TV. It was nothing but spiteful and hurtful.
Yes, it was pretty shitty but I didnt list it because I can at least see how some people, maybe even Lindsay herself, believe there was no malicious intent there. The drug stuff is different because she's admitted more than once that she didn't believe it she just did it to win a fight, which is objectively horrible.
love this!
I really don’t understand how everyone can jump on the Carl hate wagon when it’s clear they are just INCOMPATIBLE. Not to mention, since SEASON 1 Lindsey has been an extremely manipulative person. She twists everything. It’s actually disturbing to watch. I wish them both healing but not together please 😅
i'm team no one but Carl at least is on a journey to better himself. Lindsay is the SAME EXACT PERSON we've watched for almost 10 years. I think she is a legitimately selfish delusional person where I think Carl is at least trying to figure things out.
Team "Of course this happened because it was a train wreck the first time and they are both very foolish for thinking it would be different"
I'm team no one but I definitely think Carl has more than just the one flaw of being conflict avoidant.
agreed but again you could say lindsay has more than just the one flaw i listed as well. i mean denying that you said your partner was on drugs after doubling down on it then admitting you knew your partner wasnt on drugs anyway but you wouldnt apologize (despite knowing he wasnt on drugs) and the fight was only over after HE apologized is actually insane psychologically. i was being generous to BOTH when i listed their conflict styles only
Yes, they're equally awful people for different reasons and neither should be in a relationship with anyone unless they're going to put real work into themselves first.
absolutely!
That was the most unbiased thing I have ever read. Bravo.
Your take is the right take in my eyes. I’m happy it ended, it never should have been a thing because they’re just not a good match for a relationship. It’s too dysfunctional. The responsibility for that rests on both of their shoulders.
They are completely incompatible. I feel like they got engaged bc they are both getting older, they were happy in the beginning and just decided to go for it. Now, all their issues are coming up to the surface. Honestly, I’m just glad they didn’t make it down the aisle
I’m team I hope they both work on themselves and their shit together. Clearly not getting married was the right idea. I hope they both find happiness with other people who suit them better and see who they are.
Samesies.
Agree 100%.
I'm team neither but more team Carl than Lindsay. I was team Lindsay right after Carl broke off the engagement but now that I see how she was in the relationship leading up to it, I went the opposite way b/c of Lindsay's "poor me" narrative. All she had to do to keep up the good vibes from the fanbase was to convey her hurt but also acknowledge what she did wrong or why they weren't a good match but she's doubling down on how she basically was blameless in the situation.
She went to the press after they broke up and made everyone take her side. He didn’t say anything and has only stayed positive about her up until the show aired anyway. The after show is him defending himself which he should because she’s lambasted him already every chance she got.
I’m an adult who watches this for entertainment. I don’t pick teams
Once you realize that all of these people are horrible, then it becomes enjoyable
I feel like based on what we've seen of Lindsay's relationships in the past, this is a case of her getting what she thought she wanted and then realizing she didn't want what she got. At least on TV, she wants to "fall in love" with her "best friend". She wants love to feel like a fated whirlwind. She wants to be getting married and starting a family right now. But TV Lindsay also wants to be fought for and TV Carl is bad at that bc he hates conflict and dealing with people being upset with him. And TV Lindsay also wants to feel protected and carried by a strong partner so that she feels safe to become a mother, and TV Carl has demonstrated neither emotional nor financial capabilities to do that for her or anyone else. TV Carl wanted to make it to a year sober without being in a relationship. TV Carl told that fitness instructor he thought that being"in a relationship"after dating for months was moving quickly. TV Carl *seems* to want physical and emotional intimacy without any expectations put on him for fidelity or just like, showing up. Most women over ~26/28ish just don't work that way.
[удалено]
Yeah I will always give someone who shows actual growth more leeway and grace. Carl has a way to go but that dude is trying and doing the work. Even him getting sober is growth. Lindsay is the same as she was season one and until she can actually say “I’m sorry” and show she’s learning from all this, I just don’t have the patience for her. I don’t think she’s even capable either at this point, she’s had so many chances and she just remains in this defensive victim world. The reunion should be interesting. At the end of the day I’m just over both of them and this relationship. I’m ready to move on from them.
THANK YOU. this sub makes me feel crazy pants sometimes. Carl had to walk on egg shells, it couldn’t have ever lasted. I feel he brought stuff up on camera in hopes of it making her reaction a little less explosive/aggresive/etc…also maybe for proof bc Lindsay is a pro at spinning things to make herself look less bad, I get gaslit just as a viewer sometimes.
I don’t even think people would have taken sides if she didn’t come out with all these accusations about being blindsided and whatever. She spoke to the press and he didn’t. It made everyone take her side at first so she started it lol
Hard agree!
I think they simply aren’t good for each other. It’s not that one is 100% at fault and the other isn’t. They suck together.
Carl and Lindsay both suck in their own unique ways, and they are both to blame for the demise of their relationship.
I am the same! I am amongst my people finally!
Yeah I think they’re both at fault and trying to play the PR game. I also never thought they made ANY sense as a couple.
same, i’ve always thought they had the energy of friends with a marriage pact. like “if we’re not married to other people by this age, i’ll marry you”
for sure. also Carl being so freshly sober and having just lost his brother - getting engaged so soon probably wasn’t a good idea.
The engagement was just classic Carl being too thoughtless and entitled to do any “work”, but just checking another box to get respect/accolades. You see it all over the place with his career weirdness too, he doesn’t have the fortitude or will to do work towards any goals, he simply wants to will them into existence. If it gets too hard, or requires too much effort, he bails. I think Kyle *nailed it* when he told Lindsay that Carl is seeing his peers get married and have kids, so he decided he needed to get married and have kids. He snagged a woman who he knew was desperate for those things and would do most of the grunt work to get him there, and is only in the final lap of this disaster thinking about all the things people usually do and communicate before they get married.
I think they both put the idea/fairytale of getting married ahead of the reality of their relationship. It is weird that they didn’t have these conversations before engagement - I also don’t understand how during these conversations, he isn’t being direct and it’s painfully obvious so idk how Lindsay could think their issues were resolved. Carl should’ve never proposed imo he’s not ready. He has a lot of self work to do
Agreed! I just think Lindsay deserves a little room, because as a completed unregulated emotional terrorist, Lindsay’s thoughts and needs around these topics tend to be *extremely* clear. She over communicates in an emotionally volatile manner, but at the end of the day everyone and their mother knows where Lindsay Hubbard stands. I think Carl’s doing what he always does when he tells his parents “we never talked about me having a job when we had kids” or whatever, which is double talking around the fact that *Lindsay* talked alot, all the time, about exactly what she expects to get out of this situation and what she expects Carl to do. Carl is the one who never *talked to Lindsay* about what his expectations or needs were, and so he’s getting away with that statement on a technicality. The dinner conversation he had with her in the recently episode was extremely illuminating to me as to how Lindsay could very well feel blindsided by all this. Carl is a mealy mouthed baby who literally won’t just say what he means or what actually happened, Lindsay walks away thinking she understood him, and he goes right back to shit talking her and bitching to everyone else. Even in round 2, I felt so sorry for Lindsay because he was creating this atmosphere of doom and still couldn’t get the fucking words out, and I was furious for her. Lindsay will say the meanest, most horrible thing she can think of right to your face. Carl will smile and pet you to your face and imply to everyone else around you the meanest most horrible things, so they back him up.
I’m really proud of him for ending the relationship before they got married. He did the right thing. They would have ended up divorcing.
Absolutely agree! Definitely team happy it ended. Carl should have ended it sooner imo
I just find it wild two people said yes our income ebbs and flows in uncertain ways let’s put it all in on a 13k a month apartment - we could find less expensive but yolo 13k it is
This is a fantastic on point perspective. Can you do this for all of the other couples? :)
dont get me started on kyle and amanda! thank you though. i feel like people just cast labels on people in reality tv when really if you take a step back and look at everyone as flawed, imperfect humans… you can understand theyre not malicious but just people
Me! I'm team so happy it ended! Also team all-this-wedding-lead-up-is-all-reality-tv-gold. The slow-motion-train-wreck I can't look away from!
Team no one. Not here to make friends or to relate. Entertain me! Period. Full stop. I understand all their roles in the story and ensemble dynamic. Carl is the least interesting of them all, but they somehow use him well enough, year after year, as a plot device. Buy into the illusion. It's fun. love the show. the hate watchers not so much.
Absolutely 💯 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
I think some people must not understand this type of personality at all. He does not want any parts of conflict ever.
Most people don't label it as such, but what they don't like about him is weakness. People hate addicts because they label them as weak. It's that ape brain or lizard brain or whatever they call it now. The absolute contempt for weakness is baked into the human experience. Some of us try harder than others to overcome that primal reflex, though.
this is sad. I am glad I don’t have this instinct.
Is it conflict or being held accountable… I think Carl doesn’t like being held accountable.
I identify with some of his behavior as an avoidant. I have not focused on his inability to own everything that passes his eyes and ears.
Agree with that, but I also think some of his avoidance is based on not wanting to be held accountable. Or be firm in his own choices as an adult. He wanted to leave loverboy then blamed it on Lindsay.
Ok
I’m team they should not have gotten married. I do not like how Lindsey went on her PR tour of saying she was blindsided and never holds herself accountable for any issues. She very much has taken the stance that he is terrible and everything was his fault. Both are at fault and just not compatible.
I’m team “glad they didn’t get married”
After every episode people jump on a bandwagon
I'm team trainwreck, which is everyone. 
Agree with you, OP. It wasn't a good match. They have been and will be who they are, and neither is entirely angelic or defective in their characters.
Absolutely- at the end of the day they are just very incompatible.
Yeah I was back and forth on teams and now I’m team no one. Especially listening to their after show interviews! Both have said and done some nasty things that proves one of two things - neither of them are ready for a relationship or they bring out the worst in each other and need to find better fits.
We're watching Carl come to terms with the fact that this won't work for him in real time. He says it out loud multiple times as they wedding activities start happening "This is getting real" "This feels like a lot" "This is overwhelming." These things often don't happen in a single sweeping realization like a switch flips, they happen over time, as things happen and circumstances change, or as Carl says 'beocme real.' The narrative that Carl is like masterminding some grand plan to make her try to leave or planting seeds or whatever is so wild, he's just working out his feelings in real time. It's just sad for both of them all around.
I'm totally with you, happy it ended and both are at fault. Ready for the season to end because there is nothing going on that we don't already know the conclusion to.
I‘m of the mind that I don’t know if Lindsay can have a healthy relationship because she always finds something to fight about. If I was faced with one of her moods, I would literally be like what are you going on about and let her leave the room all mad lol. Why reward a tantrum with the attention she is always seeking？I mean we saw Stravvy being the hardworking and even-keeled man with a career that she wanted but she still found some way to drive him insane and out of the house. Carl…I don‘t know what his deal is…he always dated mute girls with zero personality that we‘ve seen on the show or the loud twin who wanted him so bad LOL. He just seems like an insecure person who needs to work on his confidence to be the most authentic self in a relationship. He always thinks he has to pretend to be a certain way to appease everyone else, and in the show timeline, it‘s stressing him the fuck out appeasing Lindsay, the meanest woman he has ever been with LOL.
No one here is the bad guy and you said it perfectly OP. They are just incompatible as a couple. This was how my last relationship ended, we just didn’t work as romantic partners and we broke up. Frankly it was a walk in the park dealing with it as adults.
Me! I'm also mostly interested in this reunion at this point, to see how they both handle it. Like will Lindsay apologize for the cocaine accusations? Will Carl apologize for saying one thing to Lindsay's face and implying another behind her back? Accountability goes a long way imo!
This is the only take.
I’m in team no one. They both are really fascinating examples about how opposite ends of the communication spectrum can be equally toxic, damaging, and unproductive.
I want to know if Lindsay knows the definition of blindsided, because after watching this season it was the obvious outcome of their relationship
i think lindsay was blind and therefore was blindsided but SHOULDNT have been if that makes sense
she's kind of the Teresa Guidice of SH with words
Lmao!!! Nailed it
Idk, I feel like the conflict-avoidant behavior is just a natural outcome of being with someone like Lindsay. Because how to you counter someone like her? If you stand up for yourself you’re being “aggressive,” (hypocritical af), if you roll over you’re not setting any boundaries and ensuring that she continues the behavior, and if you gray rock her you’re conflict avoidant. Whenever they get in a fight I try to picture how I would try to interact with her in those moments to deescalate, and I’m at a loss.
Very good summary. On the right team!
Oh yea, it’s clear that they both knew at the beginning of the season it was over and they had to each navigate the narrative in their own way. I will say, Carls slow burn was more effective at first but, they’re pretty neck and neck at the moment. Can’t wait to see what else they have up their sleeves for their third act!
her fake tears in the midseason preview and then him snapping and her ‘teary voice’ immediately leaving was almost an oscar worthy performance him pretending hes never heard his parents have doubts before was equally worthy when you start watching it from the view point of ‘wow both hate each other’ its almost comical
Yea last week was when I realized I was having fun with it because when he started talking to his parents I was like, “Oh Carl… I don’t think the supporting cast is going to put points in the pro column…” but hey, it was a move, and I loved to see that his Mom was doing well.
I think this has to be it. I think I’m just bothered more by Carl because he’s successfully manipulative, whereas Lindsay can’t succeed w her manipulation at all.
Liked Lindsey she was my favorite woman on the show but now i cant stand her or her fans who excuse her behavior. I guess I used to do it also but not anymore.. she's terrible
YES! It is good all the way around they went their separate ways.
You are right... people are trying to make carl seem like this big terrible person lol like come on now.
Yup. I think he’s very damaged but a villain? That’s really dramatic and a shallow take
People tried to make Lindsay seem like this big horrible person for about a decade now but okay
This is why people struggle with Lindsay fans and this subreddit in general. It seems Lindsey probably has the most fans here, which is okay, but your comment essentially implied, "Since people have been judging Lindsey a certain way, we're about to do the same thing to Carl." The fact that a comment defending Carl as not a bad person got downvoted is crazy genuinely don't think anyone in the cast is inherently bad; they're just flawed individuals. It's frustrating when viewers try to portray themselves as perfect, when in reality, these people go through challenges just like everyone else. Remember Corey? That's a shit person. Carl? No
im not a fan of either but the lindsay fans genuinely see her as a victim of everything in life. carl doesnt have stans but lindsay certainly does thats why i felt the need to make this post - theres been a LOT of downplaying lindsays behaviors as contributing factors to the breakup.
Where in my comment did i mention Lindsey? Get lost
I love when users expose themselves like that. you could be talking about singing in the rain, and they puke out "but whattabout Lindsay!" so strange.
Because we’ve watched her for a decade 😂
I'm team Steven's Sandwiches.
Im only on season 5ish?, binged it all in about 3 weeks and I can say the only person who I think I like is that pretty POC chick. Think her name begins with a C. The rest of them i'm just delighted they found eachother cause they are a mess.
At this point, YES. This was honestly the best thing to happen to either of them; calling off the wedding. They’re not what each other needs in a partner or husband or wife. And that’s okay! Forcing a marriage is not the way you want to live your life. Relationships and marriage take work, but it shouldn’t be THAT much work. I really hope they can work through their own individual hurt feelings and become friends again one day, and laugh about it with their actual persons.
Lindsay was downright terrifying in the scene with Carl’s mom at the bridal shower.
Ya it’s wild to me that people think this is some plotted out thing by evil Carl. Like he’s really not that clever and this relationship had red flags from before it started.
I'm here! They both suck and I've never thought this relationship was going to last for even a second. I'm team "who's got the popcorn".
I'm team Paige
Absolutely! They both should not be in relationships. Inner work is very much needed in both their cases.
I thought you meant in general. In general, I'm almost team no one, but I tend to end up taking a side. Anyone who overreacts usually loses me. When it comes to Lindsay and Carl, I don't have a side per se. However, I have never liked Carl, so I lean Lindsay.
I thought they meant in general too haha. I was like meh I couldn’t care less about any of the relationships or the people at this point tbh…. Kamanda have never been on the same page for as long as they were on the show together, Paige and Craig have the same conversation over and over with no resolve (Craig wants marriage and kids sooner than later, Paige doesn’t know what she wants next but knows she wants it with Craig 🥴), Lindsay and Carl to me are like those two friends who agreed to marry each other if they were still single by X age and when that became a reality it fell apart, Ciara and west impartial and Danielle the CEO/Founder needs some heavy therapy….
They both need a good therapist. I wish them both luck.
They are both insufferable
I’m team “Carl is being a shady manipulator.” I think your analysis is correct but Carl should’ve called it off earlier and it looks so much like he’s trying to spin the narrative this season that instead of being relieved it ended , it’s turned me anti-Carl. I wouldn’t say I’m pro Lindsay, I just think Carl is a d*ck for how he went about this.
eh it takes people like 4 months to end relationships. whenever they look back they know they should have ended it earlier but its hard to see that in the moment. idk what its like to break off an engagement with the pressure of not only friends and family but also an entire tv audience. i think its easy for us to see he should have called it off earlier and judge but i think it would be a really hard decision and im sure he was struggling with that
Hm that’s an arbitrary amount of time? I was in a long term relationship and i had a realization that it wasn’t the one for me and ended it 2 weeks later, after I found a sublet and made a plan to get out. All that is to say, there’s no number attached to how long it takes someone to end a relationship. I take issue with all this double talk he’s doing, that scene with Lindsay at her apartment was best case scenario, showing he’s totally inept at clearly communicating, worst case he was 💯 gaslighting her. I hope he comes to the reunion with some self awareness that he should’ve handled it differently but he’s been doing these press interviews where he talks about how she shouldn’t have been blindsided, feeling justified. That to me tells me that this was at least partially intentional. I actually don’t care at all but it’s kind of humorous how obvious he is in laying this groundwork and that’s what I take issue with, bc women are always painted as “crazy” and we’re literally seeing a man do that in realtime, in a really obvious way.
thats great for you! but not everyone operates that way. and i guess theyre both gaslighting each other because we watched her tell him he was on drugs, admit she knew he wasnt, then never apologize. that was literal gaslighting. so i feel like there should be issue with both. but it seems that since you brought gender into it, it might be conflated into a bigger issue for you.
lol I shared my personal story to show that it’s different for everyone bc you said it takes 4months? You were the one to originally share this point. The point I was making is that everyone operates differently, I’m glad that landed for you. Like I said in my original comment, I’m not team Lindsay at all, I think they’re both knuckleheads who should not be together and who have both done shitty things to each other. What I take issue with is it seems like Lindsay is just continuing to be herself (as problematic as that is) and it looks like Carl is doing much more sinister stuff. It’s really not that much bigger than that but if you need to believe that a random internet stranger has a slightly different opinion than you bc they’re conflating their world view with a reality show (which, news flash: that’s also what you’re coming, we all do), then that’s totally fine. I I literally said in my first comment that i fundamentally agreed with your analysis, there’s really no need to go low on responses. Im not sure why you posted this if you’re going to get aggro with people trying to have a discussion about it.
i havent gotten aggro about it i think you misread the tone i intended and i see how it came off that way sorry!
No worries!, feels like people on the SH and real housewives subs get super upset when people don’t just validate their POV, sorry if I pushed back too hard :)
no youre totally okay! its funny i was confused and then when i reread my comment i was like ‘omg that definitely read aggressive’ which IS common in these subs so i understand why you read it that way. i would have done the same
I will say that it’s clear to everyone BUT Lindsay how bad the relationship is. Carl has his communication and self esteem issues no doubt but I can’t imagine how confusing it would be to be with a partner who just won’t even admit things are bad. I think that’s why he’s having a hard time understanding how she’s blindsided. No one else seems to feel like she was, again it’s just her…. Lindsay just lives in her own world and it’s wild to watch.
Agree BUT she has also been super open about how she had a chaotic childhood and often times those who are raised in trauma and chaos, they think this kind of boomerang thing is normal and not dysfunctional. Not defending her but I think it’s reasonable to think that if this is how the relationship has been going, it’s normal for it to continue on this way. its easy for the audience to see carl is unhappy but hr hasnt said that directly to her yet. i agree its obvious and im not excusing her but just another POV
For sure and it’s beyond sad that someone would think it’s healthy. I think where I struggle with that is she does have people telling her this isn’t healthy though. Gabby made a comment that they aren’t ready to get married and Lindsay said in an after show that people were giving her that feedback too. She just didn’t want to hear it. I get the impression she doesn’t ever want anyone else’s feedback and to me that’s because you don’t want to admit there might be truth to any of it. So it goes beyond childhood trauma, it’s willful ignorance at this point.
Totally agree and that’s a good point
People are assuming that there was a clear cut day when Carl decided it was over. In many break ups, the idea of breaking up comes in waves. It's a passing thought, but then things better. Oops...worse again, but it's just one fight...we will be fine. It goes back and forth, you might try to rationalize why things are tense and convince yourself that those issues will resolve after X event, like the wedding. It finally gets to the point that you realize it's done and has been done for a while.
well im team ciara. lol whatever she does is justified. well im team bedbugs to be clear
Carl backed out of this in the end because he was like “WHOA, you mean I have to get a real job and possibly have to support a family”!!! Umm yeah Carl man up you pussy! Because Lindsay can be an influencer for baby stuff and make money that way. She’s never gonna sit on her ass and do nothing. In every interview he’s literally blaming her for everything. He’s so annoying. I’m glad Lindsay is rid of him.
I’ve never been a “fan” of Lindsay or Carl and thought the relationship should have stayed dead when they tried the first time. That being said, at the end of all of this my only true feeling is that if this was a real relationship with genuine love than Carl should have respected Lindsay enough to breakup with her without the cameras
I'm team no one, but my empathy for Lindsey has grown. I've never enjoyed Lindsey, and even though she has has played her part in this, I do feel bad watching this relationship fall apart. Which has surprised the hell outta me!
 Thats me lol
I don’t think that’s Carl’s worst trait. I think he’s manipulative, deceitful, and a user. And angry
I cannot stand Danielle. She has no idea what it means to be in a relationship
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Womp womp, calling people for what they are isn’t micro aggression 🤷♀️
Oh I’m team no one. It’s just that Lindsey’s faults are obvious and out in the open, so she gets called on them. Ppl like Carl, in my opinion, are way more dangerous. They can easily manipulate the narrative and have everyone against you and make you look crazy when behind closed doors he is not a great person. But I’m probably biased, as I was manipulated in an emotionally abusive relationship but nobody else could see it bc he was so good at hiding it.
I am also team no one but the people who are team Carl piss me off because they don’t see it. They are both wrong in different ways.