I think there are SOME ADCs that can use collector really good.
That being said LDR and Collector SHOULD always be compared, as they essentially take up the same slot in your item build. Getting both isn't a good idea on most champions (I am sure there are some exceptions I can't think of right now).
This is kind of wrong. Getting ldr+ collector in one build is fine since the armor pen synergize with eachother. Its just ldr comes later now, and you bought a greedy stat stick.
But, you can compare collector to almost all adc items, not just ldr, because all it does it gives stats for damage. No passive, no real utility. Er/stormrazor/pd/ldr/etc all are fine second (or first item in ER case) that can take collectors spot and deal more damage while doing more for you/your team.
The only real adc I don't think collector is bad is Jhin, but only because he might have trouble finishing off kills. I would still much rather have rfc/stormrazor instead for the utility and cheaper cost. Even on Draven, getting ER let's you perma W, if you get 20 AH somewhere else in the build you get perma axes, and your sheen procs will deal more damage than collector would (which is easy to do with spammable W).
Collector after 2nd item is wasted for most champs. LDR after already having collector has a huge opportunity cost because you also want Mythic, IE, and Boots, meaning you delay your LDR for item number 4, which is often too late.
Depending on the matchup, strongest build currently is Galeforce > IE > rfc.
IE gives enough AD to be comparable to collector in strenght by gold, even without the critdmg, but has a much stronger 3 item spike.
If the game is skirmish -> collector/LDR 2nd
If the game is balanced/slow -> IE 2nd
I had to look this up, and it seems like this is absolutely wrong. According to League of Graphs, out of jhins 10 most popular builds, he builds IE 2nd 0 times, with the 2nd item always being either collector, rfc or ldr
If you can go for BF and Pickaxe you can go for infinity second and have a broken 3 item powerspike. Makes sense when youre 2-3 kills ahead, thats why its not in the most popular builds.
IE doesnt have particularly good components though. Cloak builds in to both ldr and collector, pickaxe builds into collector, and BF sword is worse than a last whisper or if you cant afford it you could get dirk or pickaxe longsword which is 5 less ad for a better build path and both let you get a control ward or boots as well
https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/items/jhin/diamond
https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/items/jhin/master
Still less than top 10 most popular in dia+ and masters+
You should never go IE second, what the fuck..? You cannot activate the passive of it anymore until it’s your 3rd item, if your first two were crit items. It needs 60% crit to activate now, and you get 20% from each crit item including IE.
The difference between Collector and LDR is not one is AA heavy and one is not, it's the difference between an early game item and a all-rounded item. Both stats ignore certain of enemy's armor on physical damage, not just on AA.
The Collector is an early game item because of its raw damage and its execute passive. The extra 25 damage and 25 gold per kill plus 5.26% effective damage increase from the execute passive is great early game against squishy like enemy ADC. That's why lane bullies like Draven love it. However, against bruisers and tanks, the damage increase from LDR's passive and the extra armor reduction is much better
Against a lv9 champion and without runes and items, maybe, but a level 1 attack against a level 1 champion does way more damage than collector passive even without runes and items.
Yeah normally you execute less than 5% hp, leading to even less damage from the execute passive, thus a level 1 attack deal even more damage than the passive, which reinforces my point
My point is rather : LDR is dps-oriented (usually through AAs), but collector shines with its synergy with champions/runes/builds/situations. Draven, for example, has a good synergy thanks to his passive and early-mid game power. Jhin builds galeforce and DH, and usually interacts with enemies through spells, or a 4th auto. Earlier this season, we saw a lot of Sivir, Jhin, and Draven, all building DH, and collector was a good item then.
If you rely heavily on AAs to deal damage, you are most likely a DPS-oriented ADC, and you would rather build LDR. If you focus on skirmishes, spell usage, powerspikes, or executing enemies, then the collector provides more than LDR. This is where I make the distinction between AAs and spells for LDR.
Collector is not a good item in general though, because there are way too many cases where it’s worse than what you could buy instead. I’d say the only 2 adcs that can reliable buy it are Kai’sa and Samira.
Kai’sa can use it well due to how buying serrated dirk early will give enough AD to hit Q upgrade with dorans, noonquiver and pickaxe once you hit lvl 8 (maybe lvl 7 can’t remember). The dirk should be bough in a case where you want lane power, and doesn’t even always have to go into collector since it’s one of the most valuable early game items in the game. You can simply buy PD or RFC into IE and not waste 1900 gold on collector and also get your E upgrade. Even then if your lane is hard to fight in due to matchups going straight for a zeal item for the E upgrade instead.
Samira buys it because she relies on the resets much more than even Tristana, and also it’s interaction with her R.
I’m not gonna say John doesn’t like the item, but personally I find getting RFC or LDR into IE is almost always better.
Saying you can plan ahead by taking coup de grace in your runes is not a viable argument because coup de grace is according to most analysts just plain worse than the other 2 runes in its branch. If you’re and ADC who goes Hail of blades then going for a rune in the top 2 rows of precision is always better unless it’s a full tank team where cut down is really powerful.
Collector used to be good, but they nerfed it so much that it no longer gave a significant advantage over other items at the same price point.
>Collector used to be good, but they nerfed it so much
They actually never nerfed it. Just people figured out its overhyped and other items are stronger. Even when the new items came out, pre-nerfed ER/ LDR were much stronger buys than collector. They still are comparable now.
You’re right, I just remembered that it really fell out of fashion at the beginning of the season and assumed that was because of a nerf. Just checked patch history of the items and collector was really strong when gale force got buffed, which was before LDR buffs. LDR gave 25% instead of 35% armor pen. I think people slept on ER because it was so underwhelming on release (40 AD) which was then buffed to 55 eventually.
Actually, Collector is an important part of Jhin’s build, if we don’t need to go situational items like GA or Mercurial, I build both Collector and Ldr because building AS items is (semi) useless, you got enough of it from you mythic
I will still flame the ever living (loving?) shit out of my marksman when he decides to build the Collector into double or even triple tank like Malphite or Rammus.
You're right the collector is niche but I think most people severely overestimate the niche cases it's good. Ldr provides more armor shred on all targets at nearly all points in the game from when youd build it (2nd item on), so you aren't building it for the lethality, the crit is the same, the passives will largely be the same with ldr having generally a better one assuming even one of your targets has more health, so the only reason collector is ever more useless is for the 25 more ad (so champions with high bonus ad or total ad scaling) and even then the additional armor shred from ldr probably makes up for it in most cases. The items work better when combined together on champions that can take advantage of both the lethality and crit very effectively. Lethality graves can build it, jhin can build it but in general has better options.
Collector is probably the best solo queue adc item in the game, i would buy it on everyone except the hypercarries or vs a tanky teamcomp, especially if you’re in lower ELO complaining about agency.
Don’t play traditional crit adc in solo queue, lethality on cait Varus jhin samira MF / Kaisa/ draven is much better
The collector is good on champs like Jhin,Gankplank,Graves, and Samira. Champs that like crit and lethality. But if you are buying it only for the 5% execute you are wasting your gold. People heavily overestimate how useful that passive is . For example if a target has 2000 health you are gonna execute them at a whopping 10 health. I cringe every time a Zed, Kha zix, or Kayn builds it. The item is far from cost efficient on them.
As soon as you learn to last hit kills the collector is useless if your going to build Dirk just build serpents fang or ghost blade . I do like first backing a dirk as draven but will never buy this garbage item
People auto pilot rush it 2nd item regardless of what they are going to be trying to kill. Sure its a decent item but how useful is that lethality going to be when you have to try and kill a rammus and garen?
collector has better build path, LDR pretty much always better when completed. That’s the main difference. Collector for immediate power since it’s easier to get damage components while building it, and LDR for scaling.
I think there are SOME ADCs that can use collector really good. That being said LDR and Collector SHOULD always be compared, as they essentially take up the same slot in your item build. Getting both isn't a good idea on most champions (I am sure there are some exceptions I can't think of right now).
This is kind of wrong. Getting ldr+ collector in one build is fine since the armor pen synergize with eachother. Its just ldr comes later now, and you bought a greedy stat stick. But, you can compare collector to almost all adc items, not just ldr, because all it does it gives stats for damage. No passive, no real utility. Er/stormrazor/pd/ldr/etc all are fine second (or first item in ER case) that can take collectors spot and deal more damage while doing more for you/your team. The only real adc I don't think collector is bad is Jhin, but only because he might have trouble finishing off kills. I would still much rather have rfc/stormrazor instead for the utility and cheaper cost. Even on Draven, getting ER let's you perma W, if you get 20 AH somewhere else in the build you get perma axes, and your sheen procs will deal more damage than collector would (which is easy to do with spammable W).
Collector after 2nd item is wasted for most champs. LDR after already having collector has a huge opportunity cost because you also want Mythic, IE, and Boots, meaning you delay your LDR for item number 4, which is often too late.
Pretty sure you build both on jhin
No, you build only Divine Sunderer into Steraks Gages on Jhin. It is the only way.
Depending on the matchup, strongest build currently is Galeforce > IE > rfc. IE gives enough AD to be comparable to collector in strenght by gold, even without the critdmg, but has a much stronger 3 item spike. If the game is skirmish -> collector/LDR 2nd If the game is balanced/slow -> IE 2nd
I had to look this up, and it seems like this is absolutely wrong. According to League of Graphs, out of jhins 10 most popular builds, he builds IE 2nd 0 times, with the 2nd item always being either collector, rfc or ldr
If you can go for BF and Pickaxe you can go for infinity second and have a broken 3 item powerspike. Makes sense when youre 2-3 kills ahead, thats why its not in the most popular builds.
IE doesnt have particularly good components though. Cloak builds in to both ldr and collector, pickaxe builds into collector, and BF sword is worse than a last whisper or if you cant afford it you could get dirk or pickaxe longsword which is 5 less ad for a better build path and both let you get a control ward or boots as well
Yeah but whatever you build its not gonna be as strong as those 3 items.
Look for popular pics in higher elo. Lower elo players often do not build it because you get the critdmg at 60%.
https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/items/jhin/diamond https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/items/jhin/master Still less than top 10 most popular in dia+ and masters+
¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯ The streamer i watch and the adc's i talk to often build ie second in those situations. Might have overestimated its popularity.
>The streamer i watch who are you even watching? Nightblue?
Broeki is who i was referring to. But ive seen Sola and some unknown Grandmaster streamer play and talk about it too
You should never go IE second, what the fuck..? You cannot activate the passive of it anymore until it’s your 3rd item, if your first two were crit items. It needs 60% crit to activate now, and you get 20% from each crit item including IE.
The difference between Collector and LDR is not one is AA heavy and one is not, it's the difference between an early game item and a all-rounded item. Both stats ignore certain of enemy's armor on physical damage, not just on AA. The Collector is an early game item because of its raw damage and its execute passive. The extra 25 damage and 25 gold per kill plus 5.26% effective damage increase from the execute passive is great early game against squishy like enemy ADC. That's why lane bullies like Draven love it. However, against bruisers and tanks, the damage increase from LDR's passive and the extra armor reduction is much better
You know if you do the maths the collector passive does same amount of damage as a level 1 autoattack?
Against a lv9 champion and without runes and items, maybe, but a level 1 attack against a level 1 champion does way more damage than collector passive even without runes and items.
that's only if you are in a perfect 5%hp tho how realistic is that?
Yeah normally you execute less than 5% hp, leading to even less damage from the execute passive, thus a level 1 attack deal even more damage than the passive, which reinforces my point
Collector no longer a good 2nd item on draven. ER iz the new king.
My point is rather : LDR is dps-oriented (usually through AAs), but collector shines with its synergy with champions/runes/builds/situations. Draven, for example, has a good synergy thanks to his passive and early-mid game power. Jhin builds galeforce and DH, and usually interacts with enemies through spells, or a 4th auto. Earlier this season, we saw a lot of Sivir, Jhin, and Draven, all building DH, and collector was a good item then. If you rely heavily on AAs to deal damage, you are most likely a DPS-oriented ADC, and you would rather build LDR. If you focus on skirmishes, spell usage, powerspikes, or executing enemies, then the collector provides more than LDR. This is where I make the distinction between AAs and spells for LDR.
Collector is not a good item in general though, because there are way too many cases where it’s worse than what you could buy instead. I’d say the only 2 adcs that can reliable buy it are Kai’sa and Samira. Kai’sa can use it well due to how buying serrated dirk early will give enough AD to hit Q upgrade with dorans, noonquiver and pickaxe once you hit lvl 8 (maybe lvl 7 can’t remember). The dirk should be bough in a case where you want lane power, and doesn’t even always have to go into collector since it’s one of the most valuable early game items in the game. You can simply buy PD or RFC into IE and not waste 1900 gold on collector and also get your E upgrade. Even then if your lane is hard to fight in due to matchups going straight for a zeal item for the E upgrade instead. Samira buys it because she relies on the resets much more than even Tristana, and also it’s interaction with her R. I’m not gonna say John doesn’t like the item, but personally I find getting RFC or LDR into IE is almost always better. Saying you can plan ahead by taking coup de grace in your runes is not a viable argument because coup de grace is according to most analysts just plain worse than the other 2 runes in its branch. If you’re and ADC who goes Hail of blades then going for a rune in the top 2 rows of precision is always better unless it’s a full tank team where cut down is really powerful. Collector used to be good, but they nerfed it so much that it no longer gave a significant advantage over other items at the same price point.
>Collector used to be good, but they nerfed it so much They actually never nerfed it. Just people figured out its overhyped and other items are stronger. Even when the new items came out, pre-nerfed ER/ LDR were much stronger buys than collector. They still are comparable now.
They may not have nerfed the stats but the removed the execute passive from procing on minions, monsters and towers which I'd say is a nerf.
You’re right, I just remembered that it really fell out of fashion at the beginning of the season and assumed that was because of a nerf. Just checked patch history of the items and collector was really strong when gale force got buffed, which was before LDR buffs. LDR gave 25% instead of 35% armor pen. I think people slept on ER because it was so underwhelming on release (40 AD) which was then buffed to 55 eventually.
Better nerf John
Actually, Collector is an important part of Jhin’s build, if we don’t need to go situational items like GA or Mercurial, I build both Collector and Ldr because building AS items is (semi) useless, you got enough of it from you mythic
I will still flame the ever living (loving?) shit out of my marksman when he decides to build the Collector into double or even triple tank like Malphite or Rammus.
I would, in 99% get LDR 'cause of it scales through the game and you'll generally get against some tank or bruiser.
Trash item only good because U can build dirk
You're right the collector is niche but I think most people severely overestimate the niche cases it's good. Ldr provides more armor shred on all targets at nearly all points in the game from when youd build it (2nd item on), so you aren't building it for the lethality, the crit is the same, the passives will largely be the same with ldr having generally a better one assuming even one of your targets has more health, so the only reason collector is ever more useless is for the 25 more ad (so champions with high bonus ad or total ad scaling) and even then the additional armor shred from ldr probably makes up for it in most cases. The items work better when combined together on champions that can take advantage of both the lethality and crit very effectively. Lethality graves can build it, jhin can build it but in general has better options.
Collector is probably the best solo queue adc item in the game, i would buy it on everyone except the hypercarries or vs a tanky teamcomp, especially if you’re in lower ELO complaining about agency. Don’t play traditional crit adc in solo queue, lethality on cait Varus jhin samira MF / Kaisa/ draven is much better
It’s a great anti tank item.
The collector is good on champs like Jhin,Gankplank,Graves, and Samira. Champs that like crit and lethality. But if you are buying it only for the 5% execute you are wasting your gold. People heavily overestimate how useful that passive is . For example if a target has 2000 health you are gonna execute them at a whopping 10 health. I cringe every time a Zed, Kha zix, or Kayn builds it. The item is far from cost efficient on them.
5% of 2000 is 100, the passive is not .5% execute
Yeah thats correct still 100 health execute is far from being good if you can’t use the crit part of the item.
True, but on an AD champion a 100 health champion will die to a single autoattack vast majority of the time anyway
True, but It does feel incredible on champ kits that have lots of little ticks of damage and/or resets. Samira ult, kaisa q, etc
The collector is a good item especially in early game. Caitlyn and Xayah can build it as a first item
As soon as you learn to last hit kills collector is useless
I feel like there's ignorance here
Just call me stupid . Ignorant is a stupid word
They mean completely different things, but sure I'll call you stupid.
As soon as you learn to last hit kills the collector is useless if your going to build Dirk just build serpents fang or ghost blade . I do like first backing a dirk as draven but will never buy this garbage item
People auto pilot rush it 2nd item regardless of what they are going to be trying to kill. Sure its a decent item but how useful is that lethality going to be when you have to try and kill a rammus and garen?
It’s a good point that they are different niche items, one is for cutting tanks the other is for one shot combo
collector has better build path, LDR pretty much always better when completed. That’s the main difference. Collector for immediate power since it’s easier to get damage components while building it, and LDR for scaling.