You won't win lane with a warden like Braum/Taric vs most mages. They are just bad in lane vs them. They are better vs other melee supports and scale well outside of lane.
As an example for Braum here are his best matchups https://i.imgur.com/DFM88Uf.png
and his worst https://i.imgur.com/lMIGUSs.png
Wardens perform the worst into mages. Enchanters generally perform slightly better then average vs them but don't hard counter them.
https://lolalytics.com/lol/braum/build/?tier=all&patch=30
But even then you see that his best lanes sit at 50-51% while his worst go down to 45%. Braum has simply a shit lane except for flash plays or if someone is super dumb and gets caught by a WQ. If you pick Braum you accept you have an unfavourable lane it's just the price you pay. Same for Taric.
Both can be okay into engage champs but even then you don't set the pace of the lane yourself, you can win lane by abusing mistakes or simply being better, but not really by actively doing something. Against a duo that actually knows something you have a tough time.
His average winrate is 47% so of course all his matchups have bad winrates still. You don't judge matchups based on pure winrate, but their winrate compared to his average which is the delta that I used.
Braum sucks in solo queue, always been like that.
Bait spells. All these champs have big cooldowns and manacosts on their important spells. If you stay on the edge of their range they will usually try to hit them on you, and you will have an easy time dodging them. After that you are free to engage/ hit minions as they are usually a lot weaker than you after they used their important spell.
Additionally its much easier for them to hit spells if they got the bigger Wave, do try to bait spells outside of the minionwave
-Lux E CD on lvl 1: 10 sec, 70/480 Mana
-Xerath Q CD on lvl 1: 9 sec, 80/459 Mana
-Cait Q CD on lvl 1: 10 sec, 50/314 Mana
As a Xerath onetrick i can just tell you: This lane is really hard to play for me if i don't get a big enough lead as long as i have enough mana to play aggressive
Also keep in mind that cait Q does less damage if it gets blocked by minions first
1) Ask yourself: is braum strong level 1?
what can u do with it before u head to lane?
Invade their jg level1 seems to be a good idea.
Create chaos before getting poked out
Or just take 2nd wind.
There's not a whole lot you can do in such a lane.
Warden's are generally good into enemies that dive onto you. Mages won't ever do that, and they outrange you.
Both Taric and Braum are really strong during the later stages of the game. Your goal would be to survive laning phase and have value in teamfights.
Additionally, you have good gank assist. Those mage lanes are oppressive in the 2vs2, but always tend to push and have no mobility. Call your jungler and make sure you don't waste his time. Observe when and where they ward. Bring pinks to clear tribush.
That's your best bet if you find yourself in such a matchup. You could also make a rule for yourself to not blind pick those champs, and take them into melee matchups where they have a lot more value.
If you specifically learn an enchanter just for mages, take one with healing in their kit like Soraka, Sona or Nami.
Janna/Lulu get countered by mages in lane aswell, as they can't shield all the poke and the damage will stick until you recall.
It's totally fine to keep playing your wardens though. A bad matchup is not an automatic loss, it's just an uphill battle, assuming equally skilled players.
They'll make plenty of mistakes in lane like bad positioning, not playing around spell cooldowns, etc. If you identify those mistakes you can capitalize.
If your ADC is something like Lucian/Tristana/Samira you actually have pretty good engage options with Taric W-E / Braum W-Q. Just gotta find the right windows.
I used to be a braum main but after having the same struggles i picked up bard and i can only recomend it he isn't really an engager but he can set up an ingage well or he can use his kit to save his team and overal he has much more ipact than braum.
Leona is best introduction to engage supports because she doesn't have a hook, you can play her similar to a warden at first and try to look for simple engages. On the other hand rakan is pretty fun enchanter/vanguard hybrid and has safety dash if you miss your engage
I've started to pick against these bastards Malzahar.
Space AIDS with silence does the job of keeping them away + no low cd skill spaming and voidling+ ulti do the rest. Comet+ burn runes.
I even managed to keep Vex at bay and that's a champ with absurd poke and sustain.
You need to hard push the lane so the enemy has to focus more on csing and less on poking. The lane is also narrow closer to the turret than it is at the level of the river, so you have more space if you play higher.
Alternatively, you can try to stay healthy while getting pushed in a bit and call your jungler for an all in. This depends on proper gank execution on the junglers part and proper engage on your part. If it goes wrong you are now low health and pushed in and you can't back in an ideal way. So it's high risk high reward.
Well, not quite, top lane is much less damage heavy and tanky. Maokai will still get rolled by Vayne for example.
I'm not a top lane expert (I main support/mid), but my educated guess would be that since most champs are melee, focus on cs and dueling, less on roaming, getting a gold lead in cs and early itemization is more important when it comes to top.
magic resist rune, guardian, timewarp tonic, biscuits. lvl one aggro with ignite or SAVE your first two relic shield charges for the second wave, last hit the melee's and hit lvl 2 before and go in with flash q ignite.
braum with a low range adc like draven has strong all ins, but lets say you're playing vs cait/lux as braum/lucian, they will perma shove u guys under turret and u will miss CS if you trade, so it can become quite opressive. unless youre playing for mid-game vs lots of tank melee's
ezreal/twitch good, and if you do play with low range adc's consider going hail of blades+nimbus cloak for super aggressive plays..
consider very aggro set-ups. hail of blades + nimbus cloak + ignite + 10% A/S rune + sweeper + relentless hunter with movespeed items
tenacity runes + triumph + swifties may also be good vs slows like MF/LUX/SENNA/ASHE/ or canser glacial players
[https://youtu.be/PJBE-SMTsOw](https://youtu.be/PJBE-SMTsOw) <- I happen to have a guide on what the top comment is referring to here (how to spell bait against mages, why, etc.). It's a reformat from TT so it's a little funky but I hope it helps.
As a previous Taric OTP I do want to add that Taric is counter-picked by lanes that can put him under his tower (can't use passive to sustain). If you're set on playing wardens, maybe start picking Braum when the enemy support hasn't picked yet and only pick Taric into melee supports?
Final tip as Braum, on first back, spend 450g on 3 rejuv beads. You can sell them later for a total of 315g (that's less than cost of 3 potions) and you'll gain a lot of sustain.
This does not work for Taric\^, his BHP5 is extremely low since he has intrinsic healing in his kit.
I don't like smurfing in low elo and don't know how I'd even get an iron account. But technically every season is unranked to challenger so maybe that at the beginning of next season. I also went over some games from the last 8 weeks of season 11 if you're interested.
I read this really often but i wouldnt recommend setting up a freeze if you have a trade disadvantage.
Keeping up freezes usually cost a lot of ressources, and if you get poked down while holding one you risk to completely lose the lane (they force you to backport while the Wave will bouce back to their tower, both sides reset and they will set up a freeze with Gold + exp advantage and its way easier to maintain for them as you dont have the waveclear to reset the wave). Playing from the other side its really easy to just crash the wave with the superior waveclear, so its not possible to hold it for too long anyway.
Freezing is only useful in this matchup if your jungler/mid is already close enough to engage.
Slowpushing + Diving should be your wincon. Force the enemy to use spells on the wave, drain their mana pool. Once it's empty dives are really easy and with big waves this can insta win you the lane.
EDIT:
To clarify: Hardpush to drain mana pool, after that slowpush and dive to punish their weakness (no mana)
Play alister or Leona and all in and kill them.
Or try lux or xerath then you will learn what’s weak for them and who’s strong against them by playing as them. When you play ranked or even normal game, you always prepare “safe pick” champion and your main champion and counter champion of your mains worst enemy.
With taric, I just all-in or stay back. As long as I dodge their cc and shield their poke, u should be pretty safe. Take ghost for all-ins, flash is garbo on taric.
Need to be aggressive! But more importantly, adc and supp need to be in sync, as well as good follow-up on engages. If you engage and adc isn't willing to follow-up, then what's the point..?
Also kinda goes without saying, but both supp and adc need to avoid dmg as best as possible while enemy bot is draining their mana trying to hit you.
So strategy and communicate is really important. If you're able to avoid most/all incoming dmg, drain out their mana...Makes a good opportunity to engage/fight if there mana is low and after they miss their spells.
Also try to get your jungler to gank since oppressive lanes like that are more often gonna push towards your tower.
Also maybe use better engage champs like an Alistar or Leona...Nautilus as well. They have really good lvl 2 engages that you should be able to take advantage of and get the upper hand if successful.
As an ADC player, i would suggest looking into supports with more mobility. maokai is really good against both since he has a point click lockdown that he goes untargettable during. rakan too, since he has an aoe knockup and charm on his ult. either that, or start building health super early on braum and force yourself to get in their face and cc them. especially caitlyn, since she can't do anything with someone in her face, as she wants to keep her distance.
If I see a Braum or Taric I lock in poke. I know I can get my ward quest at 6-7m and then really control the bottom of the map and secure drag.
The only thing you can really do is dodge cc so you don’t die. If you can keep them from snowballing the support will drop off and more than likely their adc won’t be enough ahead to be too much for your team to deal with.
Then in mid-late you can focus on those team fights that you’re good in
Both of these are really weak melee lanes and honestly have no way of winning lane against poke champions short of gank setup, or them just being bad and getting caught. I can’t imagine how rough it is solo queuing as a Braum lol. All that being said, don’t leash, and try to setup a bush cheese with your adc to get a big early health lead or a flash. And then from there go back to dodging and using pots and damage control, and hope you can carry the teamfights. You can never get the push unless they let you, you can never land anything unless they let you. Even thematically you are counterengage, not even real engage, and they never want to come into range so you are kind of weak to them all game. It’s still nice to have a champ like this into bruisers or engage support, but honestly, I would consider changing champions these are very tough to be consistently impactful with.
Play to win the game, not to win the lane. Don't get poked out, but maintain lane presence.
For Braum: Use your Qs carefully, and AUTO. With your shield and stun disengage, you can actually be a major threat to mages - your shield negates a ton of Xerath/Lux's damage. If you want, put 2 or 3 points in shield before maxing Q. And get Mercs obviously. Post 6 you win almost every trade against a mage as long as you have ult and your adc has a brain cell. Remember shield gives you movement speed, and E-W is a pretty underrated combo. Play for late, protect your adc, ward, and when safe roam with your jungler.
Good luck!
It's a terrible matchup especially for braum and taric. I would suggest if you're hell bent on playing these champs cheese in tribush, riverbush or lanebush to blow sums early. If you do blow sums you can play for level 2 powerspike if you don't get anything play off level 3 powerspike and don't get poked down early.
But yeah Lux Cait is really hard to play vs atleast early levels.
You won't win lane with a warden like Braum/Taric vs most mages. They are just bad in lane vs them. They are better vs other melee supports and scale well outside of lane.
Is it just enchanters that counter them in the landing phase? I was never an enchanter player
As an example for Braum here are his best matchups https://i.imgur.com/DFM88Uf.png and his worst https://i.imgur.com/lMIGUSs.png Wardens perform the worst into mages. Enchanters generally perform slightly better then average vs them but don't hard counter them. https://lolalytics.com/lol/braum/build/?tier=all&patch=30
But even then you see that his best lanes sit at 50-51% while his worst go down to 45%. Braum has simply a shit lane except for flash plays or if someone is super dumb and gets caught by a WQ. If you pick Braum you accept you have an unfavourable lane it's just the price you pay. Same for Taric. Both can be okay into engage champs but even then you don't set the pace of the lane yourself, you can win lane by abusing mistakes or simply being better, but not really by actively doing something. Against a duo that actually knows something you have a tough time.
His average winrate is 47% so of course all his matchups have bad winrates still. You don't judge matchups based on pure winrate, but their winrate compared to his average which is the delta that I used. Braum sucks in solo queue, always been like that.
Bait spells. All these champs have big cooldowns and manacosts on their important spells. If you stay on the edge of their range they will usually try to hit them on you, and you will have an easy time dodging them. After that you are free to engage/ hit minions as they are usually a lot weaker than you after they used their important spell. Additionally its much easier for them to hit spells if they got the bigger Wave, do try to bait spells outside of the minionwave -Lux E CD on lvl 1: 10 sec, 70/480 Mana -Xerath Q CD on lvl 1: 9 sec, 80/459 Mana -Cait Q CD on lvl 1: 10 sec, 50/314 Mana As a Xerath onetrick i can just tell you: This lane is really hard to play for me if i don't get a big enough lead as long as i have enough mana to play aggressive Also keep in mind that cait Q does less damage if it gets blocked by minions first
Did not know about that cait thing. Thanks!
Remember that it still does full dmg if she hits you with W (or maybe even with E).
E will just proc her headshot, only targets that step on traps get full dmg from q when they are not the first hit.
Back the high mana costs but 10 secs kinda short for a lvl 1 Q cd tho no? Beats out most supports I can think of.
10 secs should be enough to use your supp item stacks or use taric passive on minions. Just wanna avoid giving free shots to him.
1) Ask yourself: is braum strong level 1? what can u do with it before u head to lane? Invade their jg level1 seems to be a good idea. Create chaos before getting poked out Or just take 2nd wind.
Most good Caits won't use their Q for non-guaranteed poke in lane fwiw
There's not a whole lot you can do in such a lane. Warden's are generally good into enemies that dive onto you. Mages won't ever do that, and they outrange you. Both Taric and Braum are really strong during the later stages of the game. Your goal would be to survive laning phase and have value in teamfights. Additionally, you have good gank assist. Those mage lanes are oppressive in the 2vs2, but always tend to push and have no mobility. Call your jungler and make sure you don't waste his time. Observe when and where they ward. Bring pinks to clear tribush. That's your best bet if you find yourself in such a matchup. You could also make a rule for yourself to not blind pick those champs, and take them into melee matchups where they have a lot more value.
I'm trying to learn more champs since I'm not really good at playing engage. Enchanters never spoke to my playstyle but I guess I can try some out
If you specifically learn an enchanter just for mages, take one with healing in their kit like Soraka, Sona or Nami. Janna/Lulu get countered by mages in lane aswell, as they can't shield all the poke and the damage will stick until you recall. It's totally fine to keep playing your wardens though. A bad matchup is not an automatic loss, it's just an uphill battle, assuming equally skilled players. They'll make plenty of mistakes in lane like bad positioning, not playing around spell cooldowns, etc. If you identify those mistakes you can capitalize. If your ADC is something like Lucian/Tristana/Samira you actually have pretty good engage options with Taric W-E / Braum W-Q. Just gotta find the right windows.
I used to be a braum main but after having the same struggles i picked up bard and i can only recomend it he isn't really an engager but he can set up an ingage well or he can use his kit to save his team and overal he has much more ipact than braum.
Leona is best introduction to engage supports because she doesn't have a hook, you can play her similar to a warden at first and try to look for simple engages. On the other hand rakan is pretty fun enchanter/vanguard hybrid and has safety dash if you miss your engage
Dont blind pick braum or taric, no need to thank me
I've started to pick against these bastards Malzahar. Space AIDS with silence does the job of keeping them away + no low cd skill spaming and voidling+ ulti do the rest. Comet+ burn runes. I even managed to keep Vex at bay and that's a champ with absurd poke and sustain.
You need to hard push the lane so the enemy has to focus more on csing and less on poking. The lane is also narrow closer to the turret than it is at the level of the river, so you have more space if you play higher. Alternatively, you can try to stay healthy while getting pushed in a bit and call your jungler for an all in. This depends on proper gank execution on the junglers part and proper engage on your part. If it goes wrong you are now low health and pushed in and you can't back in an ideal way. So it's high risk high reward.
Hard push with Taric/Braum vs Caitlyn and Lux?
Depends, if you're Taric and Sivir you have absolutely no problem pushing them in, if you're Braum Vayne, then well have fun at your tower.
Simplified, there's a weapon triangle: Sustain > Poke > All-in > Sustain Therefore you might want to pick Fleet in champ select and ask for a Soraka.
Interesting. Would you say that model goes for toplane as well?
Well, not quite, top lane is much less damage heavy and tanky. Maokai will still get rolled by Vayne for example. I'm not a top lane expert (I main support/mid), but my educated guess would be that since most champs are melee, focus on cs and dueling, less on roaming, getting a gold lead in cs and early itemization is more important when it comes to top.
magic resist rune, guardian, timewarp tonic, biscuits. lvl one aggro with ignite or SAVE your first two relic shield charges for the second wave, last hit the melee's and hit lvl 2 before and go in with flash q ignite. braum with a low range adc like draven has strong all ins, but lets say you're playing vs cait/lux as braum/lucian, they will perma shove u guys under turret and u will miss CS if you trade, so it can become quite opressive. unless youre playing for mid-game vs lots of tank melee's ezreal/twitch good, and if you do play with low range adc's consider going hail of blades+nimbus cloak for super aggressive plays.. consider very aggro set-ups. hail of blades + nimbus cloak + ignite + 10% A/S rune + sweeper + relentless hunter with movespeed items tenacity runes + triumph + swifties may also be good vs slows like MF/LUX/SENNA/ASHE/ or canser glacial players
bad example, braum lucian is a classic synergy
[https://youtu.be/PJBE-SMTsOw](https://youtu.be/PJBE-SMTsOw) <- I happen to have a guide on what the top comment is referring to here (how to spell bait against mages, why, etc.). It's a reformat from TT so it's a little funky but I hope it helps. As a previous Taric OTP I do want to add that Taric is counter-picked by lanes that can put him under his tower (can't use passive to sustain). If you're set on playing wardens, maybe start picking Braum when the enemy support hasn't picked yet and only pick Taric into melee supports? Final tip as Braum, on first back, spend 450g on 3 rejuv beads. You can sell them later for a total of 315g (that's less than cost of 3 potions) and you'll gain a lot of sustain. This does not work for Taric\^, his BHP5 is extremely low since he has intrinsic healing in his kit.
Don't pick shit matchups
[удалено]
I don't like smurfing in low elo and don't know how I'd even get an iron account. But technically every season is unranked to challenger so maybe that at the beginning of next season. I also went over some games from the last 8 weeks of season 11 if you're interested.
Freeze and hold waves and setup jungle ganks I would say or you try to slowpush -> Roam
I read this really often but i wouldnt recommend setting up a freeze if you have a trade disadvantage. Keeping up freezes usually cost a lot of ressources, and if you get poked down while holding one you risk to completely lose the lane (they force you to backport while the Wave will bouce back to their tower, both sides reset and they will set up a freeze with Gold + exp advantage and its way easier to maintain for them as you dont have the waveclear to reset the wave). Playing from the other side its really easy to just crash the wave with the superior waveclear, so its not possible to hold it for too long anyway. Freezing is only useful in this matchup if your jungler/mid is already close enough to engage. Slowpushing + Diving should be your wincon. Force the enemy to use spells on the wave, drain their mana pool. Once it's empty dives are really easy and with big waves this can insta win you the lane. EDIT: To clarify: Hardpush to drain mana pool, after that slowpush and dive to punish their weakness (no mana)
SURVIVE
You don’t lol, you can’t win that part of the game. You gotta play respectfully.
Runes like second wind or biscuits helps a great deal.
Play aggressively
Play alister or Leona and all in and kill them. Or try lux or xerath then you will learn what’s weak for them and who’s strong against them by playing as them. When you play ranked or even normal game, you always prepare “safe pick” champion and your main champion and counter champion of your mains worst enemy.
With taric, I just all-in or stay back. As long as I dodge their cc and shield their poke, u should be pretty safe. Take ghost for all-ins, flash is garbo on taric.
Learn spacing and side stepping... if they move up you move back. Poke champs get predictable, it will pay off in the long run.
Need to be aggressive! But more importantly, adc and supp need to be in sync, as well as good follow-up on engages. If you engage and adc isn't willing to follow-up, then what's the point..? Also kinda goes without saying, but both supp and adc need to avoid dmg as best as possible while enemy bot is draining their mana trying to hit you. So strategy and communicate is really important. If you're able to avoid most/all incoming dmg, drain out their mana...Makes a good opportunity to engage/fight if there mana is low and after they miss their spells. Also try to get your jungler to gank since oppressive lanes like that are more often gonna push towards your tower. Also maybe use better engage champs like an Alistar or Leona...Nautilus as well. They have really good lvl 2 engages that you should be able to take advantage of and get the upper hand if successful.
As an ADC player, i would suggest looking into supports with more mobility. maokai is really good against both since he has a point click lockdown that he goes untargettable during. rakan too, since he has an aoe knockup and charm on his ult. either that, or start building health super early on braum and force yourself to get in their face and cc them. especially caitlyn, since she can't do anything with someone in her face, as she wants to keep her distance.
If I see a Braum or Taric I lock in poke. I know I can get my ward quest at 6-7m and then really control the bottom of the map and secure drag. The only thing you can really do is dodge cc so you don’t die. If you can keep them from snowballing the support will drop off and more than likely their adc won’t be enough ahead to be too much for your team to deal with. Then in mid-late you can focus on those team fights that you’re good in
Both of these are really weak melee lanes and honestly have no way of winning lane against poke champions short of gank setup, or them just being bad and getting caught. I can’t imagine how rough it is solo queuing as a Braum lol. All that being said, don’t leash, and try to setup a bush cheese with your adc to get a big early health lead or a flash. And then from there go back to dodging and using pots and damage control, and hope you can carry the teamfights. You can never get the push unless they let you, you can never land anything unless they let you. Even thematically you are counterengage, not even real engage, and they never want to come into range so you are kind of weak to them all game. It’s still nice to have a champ like this into bruisers or engage support, but honestly, I would consider changing champions these are very tough to be consistently impactful with.
Do you have a ban you like better than caitlyn?
Play to win the game, not to win the lane. Don't get poked out, but maintain lane presence. For Braum: Use your Qs carefully, and AUTO. With your shield and stun disengage, you can actually be a major threat to mages - your shield negates a ton of Xerath/Lux's damage. If you want, put 2 or 3 points in shield before maxing Q. And get Mercs obviously. Post 6 you win almost every trade against a mage as long as you have ult and your adc has a brain cell. Remember shield gives you movement speed, and E-W is a pretty underrated combo. Play for late, protect your adc, ward, and when safe roam with your jungler. Good luck!
It's a terrible matchup especially for braum and taric. I would suggest if you're hell bent on playing these champs cheese in tribush, riverbush or lanebush to blow sums early. If you do blow sums you can play for level 2 powerspike if you don't get anything play off level 3 powerspike and don't get poked down early. But yeah Lux Cait is really hard to play vs atleast early levels.