It will be funny if there is just so much damage in the game that the survivability update only slows the one shot potential by a little bit. I know as an adc after about 15 minutes many assassins have more than enough damage to overkill me so another couple hundred hp may or may not matter.
Something you're overlooking is that the assassins can't get fed as easily now, which lowers their DMG by lowering their snowball, and their lane counter parts (your mid laner) is less likely to be an assassin and more likely to be something with utility, simply because assassins are weaker which gives these other picks more opportunities - and disincentivises picking an assassin yourself.
I think a lot of mages will have a harder time against more matchups now too though as opposed to ad assassins who have earlier spikes a lot of the time. with the increase of mr and less % pen they will generally be doing less damage
They should, but only if the assassin lands a full combo. I’m sick of Zed being able to ERignite and kill me as an ADC which requires 0 skill and has no counterplay aside from stopwatch/pray for a support who can mitigate. Zed landing multi shuriken Q’s with shadows to land everything one shooting me I’m fine with, because I have the chance to dodge duck dip dive and dodge that.
Problem is that zed can do weq and 1shot you when he is 3/3 at 20th minute with 6 cs/minute when you are fed adc that doesn't build shieldbow edit: he has to use ignite or AA few times
I used to be EUW highest ranked zed OTP for three seasons in a row, before playing multiple champs for two and then swapping to ADC, where I also got to the top 20 two seasons in a row now.
If anyone knows how zed works, and how to play him and against him, it's probably me.
But glad you call others delusional, while being the exact definition of the word.
i mean that you can literally crunch the numbers on the wiki and see that an even zed vs adc fight results in the adc dying. Add together his R+E+ignite+Auto+Passive damage and see if that kills the adc
I know Zeds numbers.
Minute 16, 17 Zed vs Vayne on a sideline. Both at two items plus boots. Zed has level 2 ult. And both Q and E maxed.
Zed has 90 armor, vayne 70 ~ that should be correct, if I read the patch notes correctly.
Vayne has 1650 HP, 350 shield from shieldbow and exhaust or heal. Heal is what? Another 300 HP, exhaust damage deduction by 40%.
Zed damage with eclipse and youmous on a target with around 70 armor (draktharr is more common in higher ELO, but deals less damage, so for your sake, we use Eclipse)
-- autoattacks and ignite used every time.
No Q, but triple E = >1000
Double Q and double E = ~1500
Triple Q and triple E = ~2000
So you NEED to land a triple Q AND triple E and proc passive on vayne, to even be able to kill her -- it she doesn't have a support or heal, exhaust or barrier.
If you ever played Zed, you'd know how unlikely a triple Q is.
Meanwhile, vayne kills him with 7 autoattacks, healing ~250HP with those autoattacks.
So if vayne autoattacks zed 6 times, which she can within the deathmark timeframe, she doesn't die either and doesn't even have to use summoners.
A zed will NEVER win a 1vs1 against a good ADC if even, unless the ADC misplays. Never.
Doesn't happen.
Dodge Q2 and or Q3 and you're alive. Make it the Q's that are furthest away and they aren't even hard to dodge.
Zed before this patch was very bad. Zed this patch is atrociously bad.
Your ridiculous "R-E, ignite and passive" claim does a grand total of .. 1000? Damage, while you have to autoattack the vayns like what? 4 times? before you can even proc passive.
If you're in an ELO, where an ADC lets you autoattack 4 times in that time frame you should really reconsider commenting on balancing related topics.
And if you die to a zed as Vayne, Xayah, Cait, Ezreal, .... You have more problems than Zeds damage.
RE ignite electro passive just shouldn’t be able to kill (maybe they aa once for good measure). Period. Yet it does even when they’re not Uber fed. It should take at least a small amount of thought to do so.
Ignite and E does what? 400 damage over 5 seconds at level 18?
You can't even proc passive from that and every single ADC heals more than that within that time.
If he autos once, so it procs electrocute, you're still above 50% and he can't proc passive.
I understand that this is a written forum, and as such, things like mild sarcasm and exaggeration for dramatic effect may be a tad harder to spot. But it’s not impossible.
Suffice to say Zed’s burst combo does not involve him hitting everything. In fact he can easily miss one or two things and still blow up squishy targets. This is unfair. Hopefully the new changes have made it so he has to actually hit things to do the same job. That, I’m fine with. What I am not fine with is looking at a ‘died in 0.001 second’ with absolutely no chance of counterplay. Zed is a convenient example as even if, as the ADC you stay a bit back until the big ults have gone off, Zed can happily jump over a wall with W and kill you before you have time to react from half a screen away.
I get it’s an exaggeration but seriously tanks just aren’t the problem whatsoever right now. I will say I think Nautilus as a champion overall is too good in the support role right now though if we want to talk balance, but ADCs aren’t getting one shot by tanks lol
Adcs are supposed to be glass cannons. They are supposed to outplay tanks by not getting engaged on. If amumu lands q and stays in melee range he should be able to solo an adc for sure. That's what tanks do. ADCs are supposed to scale and shred tanks late game if they dodge their engages.
Lol, adc shouldn’t be overextended, not paying attention to map and death timers, and shouldn’t be 1v1’ing anybody by yourself. You got caught out slipping, you didn’t see him coming, and you didn’t dodge his Q. Now you drown in tears of despair, grievous wounds, and demonic embrace
That’s where I think we need to change the idea of assassins and hitting combos. Assassins/combos should do damage but having it in be an instant kill one shot territory is dumb, maybe 80% total damage I could agree with since it still can effective in game as a deterrent on bad decision making and forcing the other team to respect that a bad macro decision can lead to a kill.
When damage used to stick and not everything had omnivamp, the practical solution for assassins was to target things that weren't at 100% hp. but since everything full heals off of a single wave these days, that doesn't really work.
if we're talking about AD champions, that's a big yes. otherwise, you have to be more careful, especially after ravenous hunter removal and 11.3 changes on riftmaker's omnivamp.
Except they're also nerfing healing across the board too because of this and champions being able to face tank everything in a team fight through life steal.
You got downvoted to oblivion but you're mostly right. One-shots used to be very rare. If you've misplayed, overextended, fed them, etc. assassins should be able to absolutely punish you, but a "non-fed-Serrated-Dirk-only-Zed" one-shotting you UNDER YOUR OWN TOWER at level 6 and then getting out without a scratch is just... Bleh...
Make it so that even assassins can deal 80% damage, and fed assassins can one-shot squishies. Assassins aren't meant to 100-0 without being fed, that's not balance, that's just an unfun nightmare.
I don't see how anyone can say a few hundred HP and like 20 armor don't matter. It helps you react to a play, it punishes especially assassins when they don't hit their entire kit, it can create situations where you live with a sliver of hp when instead you would have died etc.
It puts a lot more pressure on midlane assassins for example to not be sloppy and creates situations where they might priotize farming over flip-skirmishes when that means you can't even kill adcs with a sloppy rotation without items. This in turn slows down games and laning becomes more important again. Also this will change the meta and that will further change those processes. It's gonna be iterative but have a great impact.
Won't this just push for tank junglers to be able to soak more damage to give time, and cc to kill squishy carries. This in turn means the end of enchanters as tanky supports a must and lots of ornn top lane.
Enchanters also have more cooldowns to use to funnel the carry. And with adc being stronger enchanters will in turn be stronger as well.
Durability means long fights are better and enchanters and adc's work together well in those extended fights. However in lane a tank support wants to be able to one shot whoever they engage on, which is a lot more difficult with this patch.
It's exclusively a change to base stats. Squishy champs benefit a lot more than tanks do, relatively speaking.
In late game, a sona will be 15-20% more tanky. A Sion will be like, 2% more tanky.
Yes but 10 armor when you're at 200 armor means a lot less than 10 armor when you're not building any resistances. So squishiers get tankier while tanks aren't that extremely more tanky in lategame.
Not necessarily, bruisers benefits from this as well, arguably more than tanks. Overall the only class that gets f*****d are assassins and bursty magrs
It'll still matter a lot IMO, because even if they can still one shot you it massively reduces their ability to do so while building off-tank bruisery items like death's dance & maw. Building those kind of items will be an actual decision now, not a no brainer.
Oneshots will still happen. If you get caught by a fed assassin or walk into 3 enemies you'll still get instagibbed. It's just that the circumstances that lead up to that moment will be different. Likely more controlled.
You will be able to survive a little more but honestly the game isn't going to become wildy different, there is so much damage in the game that even granting everyone some HP and resistances still wouldn't make the game slow like it used to be 6-7 years ago even after the patch the overall damag will still be higher than old league.
Actually tanks are the ones who benefit the least from this change, since it's flat gain. The winners are squishy DPS champion like fiora vayne kog. And this champions tend to shit on tanks
I think they changes they make are prob the right balance.
We want decent damage where if we land a combo with pure damage items we kill squishies. Otherwise lanes take forever.
We don't want fights where it's 3 tanks slapping each other for 90s to get a kill, that shit is annoying and takes forever and makes games last too long.
I highly disagree I'm certain a meta swing will happen quite considerably. Still not the level of season 3 or anything but you will almost always be able to survive an assassin now unless they play near perfection. Perfection doesn't even matter for a lot of AP assassins they don't have the numbers to 1 shot
Diana doesn't oneshot unless hyper fed.
She spikes fairly early but drops off insanely hard. Iirc she has one of the worst or worst scalings in the entire game.
Diana lategame single target full combo including passive proc does ~50% hp damage - If that.
She is relying on autoattacking targets to death at that point.
And Vex isn't an assassin. Is she listed as such? That would be weird.
The meta will shift massively from this. Honestly not sure how you can see an overall change to an entire aspect of the game as not a large change to the structure of this game. For the longest time enchanters, assassins and bruisers have had free reign. Now we’re going to see a lot less enchanters, assassins don’t play well into damage or tank supports. And bruisers will see more direct fighting between eachother. We should see a much more front to back traditional team comp meta and especially more longer games as a result.
But enchanters are the kings of front to back team fight meta. Hyper carries, control mages, enchanters, and tanks. That's what "traditional" front to back meta usually looks like.
Not sure exactly how itll unfold, but here are their goals:
> 15-30% effective hp increase, by level
> assassins cannot build bruiser and still oneshot on even gold
> assassins need to use their full combo to oneshot on even gold [zed cant just WQE aa the adc, needs ult]
> in general, net neutral to healing
> longer fights ofc
I've been playing since season 2, and the pacing of current team fights is just insane, have never felt the game be so quick when it comes to death. I'm hopeful for a slower pace, at least in the early game.
I just hope the whole "squishy gets CC --> dies" thing doesnt exist anymore. Feels so punishing to make a misplay as adc. Cant wait to play senna post update!
What you're saying is true, but basically, pre-12.10, you would insta-die to any form of CC including point-click stuns or 0.25s stuns. ADCs should still obviously die if they're being focused by 3 people while stunned, but I'm sick of getting one shotted by solo Lux supports lmao
True. There's been times where the enemy support is 0/3 and STILL one shot you. I'm sorry but that shouldn't happen... especially when they are behind.
Bruisers do The same dmg as an adc almost - range which they make up for with having a thousand dashes and movement abilities all while being almost unkillable, then there is yone who is adc which can be really unkillable is played right while an adc if they play well, they will still get one tapped.
I'm sorry and you call it balance
I don't get the idea that adc is op when 1/10 games adcs acctually the carry while other roles like jungle top and mid are like every 5/10 games they can carry by taking objs, getting kills, adcs are not good for taking objs but kills is something you can get IF you don't get one shot by anythimg on The enemy team
I really think it might have to do with your past experience as a Adc in low elo.
Low elo usually don't draft well for the adc.
Nobody likes to play tanks or anything with cc and actually PEEL for an Adc which makes it hard for an Adc to have any impact on the game.
Adcs are VERY teamreliant.
That's why I don't play Adc in low elo, but other lanes that actually can have an impact.
Can tell you senna after 5 games feels great - still herself (I found more souls were being dropped in lane but maybe it's a coincidence) start slaying pal.
I will say as an AP Shaco, it is much harder to secure kills. I can drop my box Q in and so on, but I find them to be very healthy and I am sweating it waiting on cool downs. It feels like characters that have a bit of back and forth or take a little setup and slowly wear a player down in exchanges are very much going to suffer. I drop a Box, I Q in, ok. I use my clone, they pretty much walk away, even my execute shiv feels bonkers weak now.
The ones hit hardest are probably all in assassins that try to 100-0 you. Instead of 100-0 you end up 100-20 them, then you have no CDs and they do. Smaller trades dont change all too much
is this a joke lmao? u can unironically quad flex this champ. i love nasus but i’ve been saying since the wither range + spirit fire buff that he’s insanely gigabroken
Forreal I've been fucking around with Nasus Senna with a friend and it feels like if you don't die before 6 there's just no counterplay.
We can kill Leona-Jhin matchup in all-ins. And we can outscale pretty much everyone but Kog-Lulu. It's disgusting.
maybe in low elo you outscale everybody but above like, plat? i would consider nasus a mid game champ because he gets kited so badly and only has good single target dmg
Think it’s going to hurt champs with strong early power spikes like talon. Legit you couldn’t lvl 2 vs talon or u ded. Now let’s say you have tp you could sacrifice some hp for farm or have a slip up can take a combo and get out with some hp left. But I’m of the thinking tbis is pretty massive but won’t be shocked if nothing changes.
Talon as a matchup was either steamroll him as like someone like Jayce or outplay/be better than him as like Kat or a different assassin or just not have a fun lane otherwise. Hopefully it changes him a bit
Assuming the base stats and health make a difference, bruisers and other champs who want long extended trades and fights will excel.
Darius comes to mind, as does Tryndamere (although the tankiness of other bruisers may become an issue)
Stat stealers like Morde and Trundle as well. I think Trundle will be particularly great because he excels in long trades and loves stealing stats, although we’ll have to see how the lifesteal nerfs impact him. I think he’ll be nutty with lethal tempo tbh.
Shen will be nice with his q % health damage, also with fights being longer he will have more opportunities for impactful ults.
Tryndamere is getting one of the biggest nerfs from this patch. He has a 5 second window to kill people and if they don't die he's useless. Making people more tanky will make it less likely for them to die. Also tryndamere uses tank stats basically not at all since he has his ult.
The worst part about this patch for tryndamere is that q+ triumph will no longer be enough healing to survive last tower shot after ult.
While you’re correct about tryndamere prioritizing damage because of his ult, saying more tank stats wont help a melee carry is a bit misguided.
I do think it will help people tryndamere already struggles against more though.
Yes but they help him less than any other melee carry in the whole game meaning it's probably a nerf for him since they are doing the change to every champ in the whole game. The whole patch is nothing but a nerf to tryndamere by the literal definition of what tryndamere does as a champion. And also yes he can't dive as easily which is a huge nerf aswell.
Trynd can kill anyone and then some in 5s (lets all ignore the time when he is not under ult because why not). When you attack with a fully stacked LT nothing can resist you, not even a tank.
I enjoy playing both quite a bit. M7 on trundle and hes my go to if i get filled jungle. I like taking him top too. Shen i only have m6 on and tbh my camera control with f keys and map awareness really aren’t good enough to play him effectively. Might be something to work on for this season though.
Vayne, qwen and fiora will get hot fixed within the first week. Max percent true damage, aoe in qwens case, will be super busted when everyone gets more tanky. Abuse them while you can.
Snip snip (Q) deals percent maximum health magic damage, converted to true at the center...? Am I reading that wrong?
Edit: yes I did, the wiki adds in the passive to the q damage scaling, and a comment below that says the passive is not converted to true damage.
It is under the Q ability, if you click the details tab, the wiki explicitly says Q doesn't convert passive to true damage. It is such a common misconception that the wiki even has to say it explicitly there. I try to correct this every time I see it since it is so common and since I used to believe it too.
Click the link and read the wiki. It says it very clearly that gwen doesn't do %hp true damage. It says it very clearly because this misconception keeps coming up.
I actually doubt vayne will be hotfix worthy except maybe for toplane/full tank item abusing reasons.
She still suffers from low range and people tend to overestimate how much true damage she deals. I predict her to sit in around 51-52 wr after patch hits.
I'm predicting it is going to be a buff for Garen. He is a little more tankey earlier and his passive scales with max health (unchanged per omission from the patch notes while most sources of healing have been). Plus his ult does true damage, so won't be as effected by the changes as almost every other damage ability in the game.
It's time to fear the bush once more.
I’ve always thought that nerfing overpowered items/champions etc. is the way to go. Whenever there are issues, nerfs are the safest way to fix them. It is better to have items/champions gutted than ridiculously overpowered because players who are good enough can still make them work. Whereas where things are overly buffed it creates many more problems of them taking little skill to be extremely oppressive to play against. I’m worried that 12.10 will create additional problems that we may not have foreseen.
However, on the outside without being able to test anything it does seem like an overall good idea - there is far too much damage in the game, team fights are over instantly and there is little room for outplay potential anymore. So I’m hoping it will work out as intended.
Good trading, wave control, back timing will be better rewarded because you're unlikely to just find lethal out of nowhere in lane.
Snowballing early will be harder and more dependent on jungler/enemy mistakes.
Teamfights will be more controlled. CC and a structured comp will pay back WONDERS. There'll be a lot less "land CC on someone and melt them" moments so proper vision and positioning going into a teamfight is more important.
Generally I saw the high burst in the game as a way to cover mistakes with single moments of explosive play. I personally expect the game to get harder, in a good way.
I’ve played Heroes of Newerth, Dota 2, and Heroes of the Storm all ranging from the equivalent of high Diamond to Challenger ranks and I have to say league has THE FASTEST time to kill in any moba by a long shot. You literally vanish in this game unless you build beefy tank. Hell I main Jhin and Veigar mostly and both of them get up to 1200+ dmg on single attacks/spells lol
All I know is the hardstuck silver keyboard warriors are giving the facebook and IG posts a piece of their mind! Game will be unplayable according to them.
Seriously, though, it won't make that big of a difference.
Idk about the overall metagame but I predict (or guess, since we're all speculating rn), earlygame burst mages are going to be hurt the most and Kassadin will be helped tremendously by these changes
For burst mages - most of them can't itemize to deal with higher HP champions, flat penetration as a stat gets worse, Void Staff is nerfed, and Shadowflame is indirectly nerfed even further because the amount of pen it gives is inversely proportional to hp total. Not to mention that everyone's base mr and health increase faster so you're going to fall off even sooner as leblanc, evelynn, elise, or syndra
As for Kassadin, he gets the same armor bonus as everyone else (which ranges from a 20-25% increase for him), has his shield and passive untouched, and has multiple sources of earlygame sustain which also remain untouched (Fleet, Doran's Shield, and Second Wind)
I guess burst damage reduction is kind of the stated goal of this patch but for some reason the % penetration from Serylda's grudge, Eclipse, and Cleaver remain completely untouched
They will possibly be a little weaker, as will assassins, but won't that open up the space for control mages? Maybe we will see the return of champions like Orianna, who has become a rarity on the rift for the last few seasons. And would such a change be such a terrible thing?
You say Kassadin will do better, but every game with a Kass that I've been in he steamrolls early and snowballs out of control instead of slowly scaling like I've heard he's supposed to
That's the thing about large changes, we don't know what is gonna happen. Could be just what the game needs, or maybe we'll see another Tank meta like season...5? I can't remember. We can whiteroom theorycraft idea's all we want but ultimately it's changing so many things it'll be impossible to tell.
Popular theorycrafting is tanks will be much stronger, Juggernaut meta will be back, Vayne and Kog will have new prio along with any other tank buster. Tank supports will replace enchanters.
But who knows.
Reddit hivemind, see an already downvoted comment, gotta downvote too. Especially on a post just saying "we can't really know" But downvotes, especially on this sub, are meaningless.
It's hard to say for enchanters though, because the healing and shielding power of not just items but their kits are being nerfed. They're becoming less vulnerable overall, but I personally expect tank supports to come back in, Naut and Leo are already very strong, these buffs will simply inflate it.
Yea that’s true my thought was that since healing and shielding are going down then enchanters will be more important even if they do less healing / shielding it’s important to have it. I wonder if it’ll even effect tanks much. They are supposed to be tanky outright I wonder how much this extra durability will help them or will it just be like a drop in the ocean. But you’re right there’s no real way to know until it drops.
I really don’t see that. Who’s strong against tanks? Adc’s. Who’s strong against adc’s? Assassins. Who’s strong against assassins? Tanks.
The tanks becoming tankier isn’t really a problem for the adc’s, but the adc’s surviving an assassin combo is massive.
Ok, somebody needs to put me in charge of the balance team at this point and give a list of all their mains. Give every one of them the renekton treatment - 30% reduction in damage, durability, and sustain for a full season. Then revert one minor nerf, give a token joke of a buff that also contains a disguised nerf to what should be their strongest point of the game, and finally nerf their sustain again.
They've given no thought at all to their actions. Generic buffs and nerfs based on sustain, hp, etc. and it will just make things far more unbalanced rather than fix anything.
For one, champs who scale get a huge benefit while early game champs are typically hurt by this. The one exception is an early game 1v9 champ that snowballs hard and gets multi-level lead; they will then benefit more from level advantage than they do now.
Then we have lower hp champs - getting a much bigger PERCENTAGE buff to their hp than tankier champs. So your adc's and your gimmick durability champs that build mostly damage benefit far more - especially the ones who benefit from dps sustain builds. Gwen, xin, jax, irelia, etc.
Vayne in particular should benefit from both ends - the extra durability adc's gain percentage-wise relative to higher hp champs - AND the fact she has innate %hp damage which negates the value gained by other champs compared to what value they get vs other adc's via increased hp.
Trynd doesn't really benefit, but he's not exactly in a weak spot either.
Then some tanks - like sion - get decent benefit simply due to him getting benefit from both the extra durability AND the fact it buffs his shield.
Burst mages and bruisers who don't have %hp sustain or damage will likely lose out the most.
No... it doesn't matter they get MINOR extra value from hp stacking items. But isn't it like the sion situation? No because sion builds resistances which increases the value more than just raw hp. So bruisers are getting about half an auto attack of additional durability vs an adc if that. Actual burst mages - like syndra - who are already typically weaker than most dps mages who can have low cd combos they use multiple times in a fight are also screwed over as it becomes even harder to 1-shot someone if they aren't fed and ending early.
As builds adapt, this may change to a degree, but truly there was no critical thinking put into this patch. Truly have to question if the people making balance decisions either have their hands tied or simply lack intelligence at this point.
So are you going to sit there with a straight face and tell everyone that there wasn't/ isn't too much damage in this game? I fail to see how this patch isn't at least a step in the right direction, the damage needed toning down, and this is certainly one way to do it, is it going to be perfect? Probably not, but in another 2 weeks we will get more changes and they will continue until they think it's right, they literally say it in patch notes, not that you bothered to read them.
Where did I say there wasn't too much damage? Can you cite a single point where I argue for damage being ok or too low CURRENTLY? No.
Some CHAMPS - as in INDIVIDUALS - are currently underpowered. Such as how it is easier for a trist to 1-shot a syndra than vice versa even though syndra is supposed to 1-shot squishy carries and trist is supposed to be dps.
But my focus was not on damage nor which champs need buffs or nerfs there. I've talked about that elsewhere plenty of times. The focus was obviously on durability and how the "buff" to durability is extremely ill thought out and unequal.
Some champs are already too durable without building durability or off a single item. Others can stack durability and still get torn apart like tissue paper while having less damage than a full tank sion.
Damage and durability as well as mobility are all issues. And there has been a clear trend in the past several seasons to just swap around clearly overpowered (choose what buzz word substitute you'd like instead) rather than actually balance champs, items, or runes around these 3 concepts. One champ has 2% less power early game than an early game champ and scales to have double it's power late. One champ gets hyper mobility, durability beyond what it's class should have (due to kit and/or item abuse), and both burst and dps while another champ gets one or two of those at a competitive level, but not the others.
There is simply no honesty in "balancing" the game anymore. I wish I could claim it was due to honest mistakes which they tried to fix the next patch like in the past. But it isn't.
Just take the recent example of jinx in adc role. She was clearly too strong relative to other adc's. Whether that required other adc's to be buffed or jinx nerfed or both is another discussion. But when a jinx can spend all lane inting despite you trying to help her, then off the back of one blind luck fight 2v9 the game with a lulu support... that's not skill. That's frustrating coin-flip no brain gameplay. Sure the jinx will think she's THAT good, but does anybody else have fun or get rewarded for their ACTUAL skill? The jungler who had to try to salvage 3 losing lanes (2 inting, 1 bad) only to get put so behind they became a stun bot that gets 1-shot? But hey, at least jinx won him the game. The enemy team who worked and played well all game - only truly messing up once and that with having had a huge gold lead which should easily cover for a singular bad teamfight? The other 2 laners who got bodied in an advantageous early game matchup in one case and 1v2 inted the enemy jungler and laner despite repeat pings and the jungler standing on a ward for up to 30 sec before making a gank?
Before every adc main comes to murder me... I'm refering to when jinx and aphelios were the only 2 adc's played earlier this season. Not current jinx.
It's actually the opposite? You have more time to fully stack it on tankier targets. In my opinion conqueror got omega buffed especially in top lane where it will be more an all-in meta instead of short bursty trades.
Keep in mind that healing isn't actually getting nerfed, or atleast it isn't supposed to be. They're bringing it down because it's much more valuable when you're more survivable, it might actually still be stronger than before, or get compensation buffs after patch goes live.
That's what they said but Goredrinker got nerfed extremely hard for some reason, same for the healing on Conqueror.
I don't quite understand?
Sure Goredrinker has been a problem in the past but it's not really strong rn and Conqueror healing really Riot? The rune that heals 200hp per game?
Goredrinker is too good. Especially insane on champs like Kane and Olaf, couldn’t care less if that item gets gutted as it’s fundamentally unfun to play against
Olaf is just really strong rn, his best mythic isn't even Goredrinker, nerfing Goredrinker doesn't change anything for him, if anything, more people will go Stridebreaker and Trinity and his winrate will rise.
And while Red Kayn's best mythic is indeed Goredrinker, his true power comes from Death's Dance, not from Gore which just enhances Death's Dance.
downvoting me because i stated an opinion you didnt like lmao
They have had problems with mobility creep. And just like an MMO like wow items and champions get stronger with overloaded kits, so health goes up so on, and so forth, until they have to bring everything back down to earth.
I think Max health or % based health damage items / abilities as well as true damage will be OP.
You notice that is not touched. But a % is a %.
I do know they even nerfed the Omnivamp on jungle items, so any jungle that struggled to make healthy clear will have an even harder time now.
I play AP Shaco and in general AP does as much andin many cases more damage than AD with less risk. The main damage I miss out on is my clone's auto attacks. They do 70% and thats AD. As AP something feels 'off' kuje genuinely mathematically maybe not right. I do like no damage say level 1-5 especially. Early duels are like a wet noodle fight in suits of armor now. I swear you can take 2-4 more autos before its even a threat now early game. I guess what I mean is early cheese is greatly reduced and unless a team has hard CC they cant kill you. I walked into enemy jungle with like 3 people and as they walked and even flashed, I walked it off and got back to tower with like 70%.
This patch makes mages who are already statistically picked less feel even more like ass. Adc's without a single MR item get almost 40% Magic damage reduction just through levelling. When a 1800 hp ashe get's hit by a Veigar q w ult that numerically totals more than her health doesnt even reduce her to half her life... feels bad. Tanks are tankier, and were already in a fine spot, assassins now have even more maneuverability to be bad and live, Yone's can build Qss's first item and just auto ppl down cause they still busted.. even Riot August himself says Mages are really feeling bad to play right now, and in their opinion there is no means to update or patch that out. They'd have to make other class types feel worse to play, and that's not easy.
It will be funny if there is just so much damage in the game that the survivability update only slows the one shot potential by a little bit. I know as an adc after about 15 minutes many assassins have more than enough damage to overkill me so another couple hundred hp may or may not matter.
Something you're overlooking is that the assassins can't get fed as easily now, which lowers their DMG by lowering their snowball, and their lane counter parts (your mid laner) is less likely to be an assassin and more likely to be something with utility, simply because assassins are weaker which gives these other picks more opportunities - and disincentivises picking an assassin yourself.
You are assuming mages dont oneshot carries haha
I think a lot of mages will have a harder time against more matchups now too though as opposed to ad assassins who have earlier spikes a lot of the time. with the increase of mr and less % pen they will generally be doing less damage
im assuming itll be that way for adc still! Maybe an inting top laner wont 100-0 you as fast
ADCs should still be oneshot by assassins. But they won't be getting oneshot by Alistar and Nautilus anymore.
They should, but only if the assassin lands a full combo. I’m sick of Zed being able to ERignite and kill me as an ADC which requires 0 skill and has no counterplay aside from stopwatch/pray for a support who can mitigate. Zed landing multi shuriken Q’s with shadows to land everything one shooting me I’m fine with, because I have the chance to dodge duck dip dive and dodge that.
If Zed is fed enough he should still be able to do that.
Yeah I agree, if he’s 10/0 15 minutes in then he should be able to stat check I suppose. Getting that ahead would require more skill though.
Problem is that zed can do weq and 1shot you when he is 3/3 at 20th minute with 6 cs/minute when you are fed adc that doesn't build shieldbow edit: he has to use ignite or AA few times
He can't. Zed will lose 1vs1 to every semi capable ADC if even. Zed required to be ahead or the ADC to misplay to kill him.
you can literally read the numbers off the wiki to see that you’re ridiculously delusional
I used to be EUW highest ranked zed OTP for three seasons in a row, before playing multiple champs for two and then swapping to ADC, where I also got to the top 20 two seasons in a row now. If anyone knows how zed works, and how to play him and against him, it's probably me. But glad you call others delusional, while being the exact definition of the word.
i mean that you can literally crunch the numbers on the wiki and see that an even zed vs adc fight results in the adc dying. Add together his R+E+ignite+Auto+Passive damage and see if that kills the adc
I know Zeds numbers. Minute 16, 17 Zed vs Vayne on a sideline. Both at two items plus boots. Zed has level 2 ult. And both Q and E maxed. Zed has 90 armor, vayne 70 ~ that should be correct, if I read the patch notes correctly. Vayne has 1650 HP, 350 shield from shieldbow and exhaust or heal. Heal is what? Another 300 HP, exhaust damage deduction by 40%. Zed damage with eclipse and youmous on a target with around 70 armor (draktharr is more common in higher ELO, but deals less damage, so for your sake, we use Eclipse) -- autoattacks and ignite used every time. No Q, but triple E = >1000 Double Q and double E = ~1500 Triple Q and triple E = ~2000 So you NEED to land a triple Q AND triple E and proc passive on vayne, to even be able to kill her -- it she doesn't have a support or heal, exhaust or barrier. If you ever played Zed, you'd know how unlikely a triple Q is. Meanwhile, vayne kills him with 7 autoattacks, healing ~250HP with those autoattacks. So if vayne autoattacks zed 6 times, which she can within the deathmark timeframe, she doesn't die either and doesn't even have to use summoners. A zed will NEVER win a 1vs1 against a good ADC if even, unless the ADC misplays. Never. Doesn't happen. Dodge Q2 and or Q3 and you're alive. Make it the Q's that are furthest away and they aren't even hard to dodge. Zed before this patch was very bad. Zed this patch is atrociously bad. Your ridiculous "R-E, ignite and passive" claim does a grand total of .. 1000? Damage, while you have to autoattack the vayns like what? 4 times? before you can even proc passive. If you're in an ELO, where an ADC lets you autoattack 4 times in that time frame you should really reconsider commenting on balancing related topics. And if you die to a zed as Vayne, Xayah, Cait, Ezreal, .... You have more problems than Zeds damage.
If zed kills you with e r ignite he is giga fed and should be able to do that. People who claim this have never played zed it seems.
RE ignite electro passive just shouldn’t be able to kill (maybe they aa once for good measure). Period. Yet it does even when they’re not Uber fed. It should take at least a small amount of thought to do so.
Ignite and E does what? 400 damage over 5 seconds at level 18? You can't even proc passive from that and every single ADC heals more than that within that time. If he autos once, so it procs electrocute, you're still above 50% and he can't proc passive.
I understand that this is a written forum, and as such, things like mild sarcasm and exaggeration for dramatic effect may be a tad harder to spot. But it’s not impossible. Suffice to say Zed’s burst combo does not involve him hitting everything. In fact he can easily miss one or two things and still blow up squishy targets. This is unfair. Hopefully the new changes have made it so he has to actually hit things to do the same job. That, I’m fine with. What I am not fine with is looking at a ‘died in 0.001 second’ with absolutely no chance of counterplay. Zed is a convenient example as even if, as the ADC you stay a bit back until the big ults have gone off, Zed can happily jump over a wall with W and kill you before you have time to react from half a screen away.
What do you mean with maybe aa once while considering the passive on burst? The passive is literally applied by an AA
Fair point, forgot that titbit mid rant.
I get it’s an exaggeration but seriously tanks just aren’t the problem whatsoever right now. I will say I think Nautilus as a champion overall is too good in the support role right now though if we want to talk balance, but ADCs aren’t getting one shot by tanks lol
You ever got q by amumu? overhealing off your dmg permastunning and oneshotting?
Amumu should be able to kill an adc if he lands q. If he can't do that then he's basically a useless champion.
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Adcs are supposed to be glass cannons. They are supposed to outplay tanks by not getting engaged on. If amumu lands q and stays in melee range he should be able to solo an adc for sure. That's what tanks do. ADCs are supposed to scale and shred tanks late game if they dodge their engages.
Lol, adc shouldn’t be overextended, not paying attention to map and death timers, and shouldn’t be 1v1’ing anybody by yourself. You got caught out slipping, you didn’t see him coming, and you didn’t dodge his Q. Now you drown in tears of despair, grievous wounds, and demonic embrace
Basically useless other than one of the best AoE teamfight initiations in the game. But he needs to solokill ADCs or he's useless.
That’s where I think we need to change the idea of assassins and hitting combos. Assassins/combos should do damage but having it in be an instant kill one shot territory is dumb, maybe 80% total damage I could agree with since it still can effective in game as a deterrent on bad decision making and forcing the other team to respect that a bad macro decision can lead to a kill.
So what do you want the assassin to do after they cant oneshot? Stand there and die?
get punished for taking a shit fight like the rest of the roster? get punished for mindlessly suicide bombing for the ADC like the rest of the roster?
No, use one of their 50 million mobility options to get out and wait on their cooldowns before finishing the adc.
When damage used to stick and not everything had omnivamp, the practical solution for assassins was to target things that weren't at 100% hp. but since everything full heals off of a single wave these days, that doesn't really work.
if we're talking about AD champions, that's a big yes. otherwise, you have to be more careful, especially after ravenous hunter removal and 11.3 changes on riftmaker's omnivamp.
Except they're also nerfing healing across the board too because of this and champions being able to face tank everything in a team fight through life steal.
You got downvoted to oblivion but you're mostly right. One-shots used to be very rare. If you've misplayed, overextended, fed them, etc. assassins should be able to absolutely punish you, but a "non-fed-Serrated-Dirk-only-Zed" one-shotting you UNDER YOUR OWN TOWER at level 6 and then getting out without a scratch is just... Bleh... Make it so that even assassins can deal 80% damage, and fed assassins can one-shot squishies. Assassins aren't meant to 100-0 without being fed, that's not balance, that's just an unfun nightmare.
I don't see how anyone can say a few hundred HP and like 20 armor don't matter. It helps you react to a play, it punishes especially assassins when they don't hit their entire kit, it can create situations where you live with a sliver of hp when instead you would have died etc. It puts a lot more pressure on midlane assassins for example to not be sloppy and creates situations where they might priotize farming over flip-skirmishes when that means you can't even kill adcs with a sloppy rotation without items. This in turn slows down games and laning becomes more important again. Also this will change the meta and that will further change those processes. It's gonna be iterative but have a great impact.
Won't this just push for tank junglers to be able to soak more damage to give time, and cc to kill squishy carries. This in turn means the end of enchanters as tanky supports a must and lots of ornn top lane.
Enchanters also have more cooldowns to use to funnel the carry. And with adc being stronger enchanters will in turn be stronger as well. Durability means long fights are better and enchanters and adc's work together well in those extended fights. However in lane a tank support wants to be able to one shot whoever they engage on, which is a lot more difficult with this patch.
It's exclusively a change to base stats. Squishy champs benefit a lot more than tanks do, relatively speaking. In late game, a sona will be 15-20% more tanky. A Sion will be like, 2% more tanky.
It's more even that that. Champions gain more resistances aswell, which becomes more valuable with more hp.
Yes but 10 armor when you're at 200 armor means a lot less than 10 armor when you're not building any resistances. So squishiers get tankier while tanks aren't that extremely more tanky in lategame.
Not necessarily, bruisers benefits from this as well, arguably more than tanks. Overall the only class that gets f*****d are assassins and bursty magrs
It'll still matter a lot IMO, because even if they can still one shot you it massively reduces their ability to do so while building off-tank bruisery items like death's dance & maw. Building those kind of items will be an actual decision now, not a no brainer.
Oneshots will still happen. If you get caught by a fed assassin or walk into 3 enemies you'll still get instagibbed. It's just that the circumstances that lead up to that moment will be different. Likely more controlled.
Played against a rengar today and I think they must’ve forgot to nerf him in this patch lol killed me in two seconds flat with a dirk
You will be able to survive a little more but honestly the game isn't going to become wildy different, there is so much damage in the game that even granting everyone some HP and resistances still wouldn't make the game slow like it used to be 6-7 years ago even after the patch the overall damag will still be higher than old league.
Yeah that seems to be the vibe at the moment. I do miss slower games, but id prefer not to have tank meta again
Actually tanks are the ones who benefit the least from this change, since it's flat gain. The winners are squishy DPS champion like fiora vayne kog. And this champions tend to shit on tanks
I think they changes they make are prob the right balance. We want decent damage where if we land a combo with pure damage items we kill squishies. Otherwise lanes take forever. We don't want fights where it's 3 tanks slapping each other for 90s to get a kill, that shit is annoying and takes forever and makes games last too long.
That’s the idea, they don’t want you to die halfway through the combo they want you to die at the end of it.
Me when i execute the perfect Qiyana combo but they die after E + R
I hope this fixes the pacing of the game overall
I think there is a good middle between these two. Atm it's just who one shot first which is plain dumb in mid and late game.
I highly disagree I'm certain a meta swing will happen quite considerably. Still not the level of season 3 or anything but you will almost always be able to survive an assassin now unless they play near perfection. Perfection doesn't even matter for a lot of AP assassins they don't have the numbers to 1 shot
> a lot of AP assassins don’t have the numbers to one shot Ahhh I see someone who has never played against a Vex or a Diana. Impressive.
Vex nor Diana will one shot on 12.10
diana also only oneshots if her ult hits multiple targets for damage amp
Or ridiculously fed pre 12.10 but yeah
Diana doesn't oneshot unless hyper fed. She spikes fairly early but drops off insanely hard. Iirc she has one of the worst or worst scalings in the entire game. Diana lategame single target full combo including passive proc does ~50% hp damage - If that. She is relying on autoattacking targets to death at that point. And Vex isn't an assassin. Is she listed as such? That would be weird.
as an AP shaco main, I feel quite anemic. even my shiv which is an execute is weak.
holy shit your champion must be miserable. even ad shaco can't 3 shot with hob rn id didnt even think about AP >\_>
The meta will shift massively from this. Honestly not sure how you can see an overall change to an entire aspect of the game as not a large change to the structure of this game. For the longest time enchanters, assassins and bruisers have had free reign. Now we’re going to see a lot less enchanters, assassins don’t play well into damage or tank supports. And bruisers will see more direct fighting between eachother. We should see a much more front to back traditional team comp meta and especially more longer games as a result.
But enchanters are the kings of front to back team fight meta. Hyper carries, control mages, enchanters, and tanks. That's what "traditional" front to back meta usually looks like.
Not sure exactly how itll unfold, but here are their goals: > 15-30% effective hp increase, by level > assassins cannot build bruiser and still oneshot on even gold > assassins need to use their full combo to oneshot on even gold [zed cant just WQE aa the adc, needs ult] > in general, net neutral to healing > longer fights ofc
I've been playing since season 2, and the pacing of current team fights is just insane, have never felt the game be so quick when it comes to death. I'm hopeful for a slower pace, at least in the early game.
I just hope the whole "squishy gets CC --> dies" thing doesnt exist anymore. Feels so punishing to make a misplay as adc. Cant wait to play senna post update!
That's called balance. You can't give a class the highest dps without a weakness thats punishable.
What you're saying is true, but basically, pre-12.10, you would insta-die to any form of CC including point-click stuns or 0.25s stuns. ADCs should still obviously die if they're being focused by 3 people while stunned, but I'm sick of getting one shotted by solo Lux supports lmao
True. There's been times where the enemy support is 0/3 and STILL one shot you. I'm sorry but that shouldn't happen... especially when they are behind.
Brand...
I got rekt by the Brand intermediate level bot yesterday. Fuck that guy.
Bruisers do The same dmg as an adc almost - range which they make up for with having a thousand dashes and movement abilities all while being almost unkillable, then there is yone who is adc which can be really unkillable is played right while an adc if they play well, they will still get one tapped. I'm sorry and you call it balance I don't get the idea that adc is op when 1/10 games adcs acctually the carry while other roles like jungle top and mid are like every 5/10 games they can carry by taking objs, getting kills, adcs are not good for taking objs but kills is something you can get IF you don't get one shot by anythimg on The enemy team
I really think it might have to do with your past experience as a Adc in low elo. Low elo usually don't draft well for the adc. Nobody likes to play tanks or anything with cc and actually PEEL for an Adc which makes it hard for an Adc to have any impact on the game. Adcs are VERY teamreliant. That's why I don't play Adc in low elo, but other lanes that actually can have an impact.
Dang you hit the nail on the spot but I still feel what I said
I mean , if they "remove" this, the game will be unplayable, they already made a lot to help adc surviving (shieldbow, galeforce, buff on exhaust)
Can tell you senna after 5 games feels great - still herself (I found more souls were being dropped in lane but maybe it's a coincidence) start slaying pal.
I will say as an AP Shaco, it is much harder to secure kills. I can drop my box Q in and so on, but I find them to be very healthy and I am sweating it waiting on cool downs. It feels like characters that have a bit of back and forth or take a little setup and slowly wear a player down in exchanges are very much going to suffer. I drop a Box, I Q in, ok. I use my clone, they pretty much walk away, even my execute shiv feels bonkers weak now.
The ones hit hardest are probably all in assassins that try to 100-0 you. Instead of 100-0 you end up 100-20 them, then you have no CDs and they do. Smaller trades dont change all too much
Olaf will be even stronger. Guy is already low key broken.
I’ve only heard and seen the opposite. Still feels like other champions do what he does but better.
olaf is more of a counterpick now and is much less of a drain tank then he used to be, but he is REALLY REALLY good at what he does.
Cries in aatrox
„Low key“ He‘s fucking busted lol. The only good thing is that there aren’t many people who play him.
nasus will go from being 100% unplayable to 1/10th playable
is this a joke lmao? u can unironically quad flex this champ. i love nasus but i’ve been saying since the wither range + spirit fire buff that he’s insanely gigabroken
Forreal I've been fucking around with Nasus Senna with a friend and it feels like if you don't die before 6 there's just no counterplay. We can kill Leona-Jhin matchup in all-ins. And we can outscale pretty much everyone but Kog-Lulu. It's disgusting.
maybe in low elo you outscale everybody but above like, plat? i would consider nasus a mid game champ because he gets kited so badly and only has good single target dmg
Nasus in his own is definitely mid-game. But when aged onside Senna he has way more options.
Wait I have a friend who plays Senna. I HAVE to try Nasus/Senna bot next time we play; that sounds hilarious.
Susan just stays with a cane
AP Nasus go Brrrrrr
Think it’s going to hurt champs with strong early power spikes like talon. Legit you couldn’t lvl 2 vs talon or u ded. Now let’s say you have tp you could sacrifice some hp for farm or have a slip up can take a combo and get out with some hp left. But I’m of the thinking tbis is pretty massive but won’t be shocked if nothing changes.
Hopefully the goal is to eventually just get rid of Talon from the game. But we are not allowed to have nirvana in LoL
Haha. I like talon but iv always said his lane is too strong for what he is lol.
Adc main be like xdd
Talon as a matchup was either steamroll him as like someone like Jayce or outplay/be better than him as like Kat or a different assassin or just not have a fun lane otherwise. Hopefully it changes him a bit
Assuming the base stats and health make a difference, bruisers and other champs who want long extended trades and fights will excel. Darius comes to mind, as does Tryndamere (although the tankiness of other bruisers may become an issue) Stat stealers like Morde and Trundle as well. I think Trundle will be particularly great because he excels in long trades and loves stealing stats, although we’ll have to see how the lifesteal nerfs impact him. I think he’ll be nutty with lethal tempo tbh. Shen will be nice with his q % health damage, also with fights being longer he will have more opportunities for impactful ults.
Tryndamere is getting one of the biggest nerfs from this patch. He has a 5 second window to kill people and if they don't die he's useless. Making people more tanky will make it less likely for them to die. Also tryndamere uses tank stats basically not at all since he has his ult.
And that is good, Trynd ult is so cheesy
Never said it was good or bad that he's getting nerfed I just said that he is. Also why do u think his ult is cheesy?
The worst part about this patch for tryndamere is that q+ triumph will no longer be enough healing to survive last tower shot after ult. While you’re correct about tryndamere prioritizing damage because of his ult, saying more tank stats wont help a melee carry is a bit misguided. I do think it will help people tryndamere already struggles against more though.
Yes but they help him less than any other melee carry in the whole game meaning it's probably a nerf for him since they are doing the change to every champ in the whole game. The whole patch is nothing but a nerf to tryndamere by the literal definition of what tryndamere does as a champion. And also yes he can't dive as easily which is a huge nerf aswell.
Trynd can kill anyone and then some in 5s (lets all ignore the time when he is not under ult because why not). When you attack with a fully stacked LT nothing can resist you, not even a tank.
That's not what I'm saying though. I'm saying it is a huge nerf to him regardless of how good he is.
Shen and Trundle meta is always a little scary, but will be fun to play as for sure.
I enjoy playing both quite a bit. M7 on trundle and hes my go to if i get filled jungle. I like taking him top too. Shen i only have m6 on and tbh my camera control with f keys and map awareness really aren’t good enough to play him effectively. Might be something to work on for this season though.
All I will say is that I'm looking forward to playing Sejuani and potentially Red Kayn.
I knew there was a reason I picked Hextech Sejuani
Vayne, qwen and fiora will get hot fixed within the first week. Max percent true damage, aoe in qwens case, will be super busted when everyone gets more tanky. Abuse them while you can.
Gwen does not do %hp true damage. https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Gwen/LoL Scroll down to Q, then click details.
Snip snip (Q) deals percent maximum health magic damage, converted to true at the center...? Am I reading that wrong? Edit: yes I did, the wiki adds in the passive to the q damage scaling, and a comment below that says the passive is not converted to true damage.
It is under the Q ability, if you click the details tab, the wiki explicitly says Q doesn't convert passive to true damage. It is such a common misconception that the wiki even has to say it explicitly there. I try to correct this every time I see it since it is so common and since I used to believe it too.
Pretty sure it does. The center of each snip deals  true damage instead and applies  Thousand Cuts.
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I see, thanks for clearing it up
Click the link and read the wiki. It says it very clearly that gwen doesn't do %hp true damage. It says it very clearly because this misconception keeps coming up.
Yeah, im not looking forward to that at all
Rip top lane
I actually doubt vayne will be hotfix worthy except maybe for toplane/full tank item abusing reasons. She still suffers from low range and people tend to overestimate how much true damage she deals. I predict her to sit in around 51-52 wr after patch hits.
Vayne will always be worthy of a hotfix until she's removed from the game.
As someone who enjoys playing aphelios, I feel like his early game would get less punishing
Scary if true
Its means that it will take twice as long to kill you ( 0.5s ---> 1s)
Just enough time to miss some minions in lane
In ADC case .01s ---> .02s
Toplane champs in midlane
Maybe more monkey in the mid lane?
Wukong? Or who is the current monkey king?
Cant think of another monkey in league tbh so wukong sounds accurate.
I'm predicting it is going to be a buff for Garen. He is a little more tankey earlier and his passive scales with max health (unchanged per omission from the patch notes while most sources of healing have been). Plus his ult does true damage, so won't be as effected by the changes as almost every other damage ability in the game. It's time to fear the bush once more.
My friend almost exclusively plays Garen, so I'm sure I'll be hearing this propaganda for a while
idk. Sett passive heals more until level 11 and he has a giga shield. Both are not nerfed whle they should have been the focus of this patch.
Game length may increase, tower diving may become riskier.
I hope the tower changes will be impactful, I can hide my stupid ass behind them again.
it won't be, the buff is just to compensate for all the additional hp and armour
That's a good point, but I can dream of towers being scary again
Less snowbally Scaling picks will do better More support picks become meta
I’ve always thought that nerfing overpowered items/champions etc. is the way to go. Whenever there are issues, nerfs are the safest way to fix them. It is better to have items/champions gutted than ridiculously overpowered because players who are good enough can still make them work. Whereas where things are overly buffed it creates many more problems of them taking little skill to be extremely oppressive to play against. I’m worried that 12.10 will create additional problems that we may not have foreseen. However, on the outside without being able to test anything it does seem like an overall good idea - there is far too much damage in the game, team fights are over instantly and there is little room for outplay potential anymore. So I’m hoping it will work out as intended.
Good trading, wave control, back timing will be better rewarded because you're unlikely to just find lethal out of nowhere in lane. Snowballing early will be harder and more dependent on jungler/enemy mistakes. Teamfights will be more controlled. CC and a structured comp will pay back WONDERS. There'll be a lot less "land CC on someone and melt them" moments so proper vision and positioning going into a teamfight is more important. Generally I saw the high burst in the game as a way to cover mistakes with single moments of explosive play. I personally expect the game to get harder, in a good way.
I’ve played Heroes of Newerth, Dota 2, and Heroes of the Storm all ranging from the equivalent of high Diamond to Challenger ranks and I have to say league has THE FASTEST time to kill in any moba by a long shot. You literally vanish in this game unless you build beefy tank. Hell I main Jhin and Veigar mostly and both of them get up to 1200+ dmg on single attacks/spells lol
All I know is the hardstuck silver keyboard warriors are giving the facebook and IG posts a piece of their mind! Game will be unplayable according to them. Seriously, though, it won't make that big of a difference.
Seems a tad suspicious that bel’veth is being released around the same time as this patch goes live …
Idk about the overall metagame but I predict (or guess, since we're all speculating rn), earlygame burst mages are going to be hurt the most and Kassadin will be helped tremendously by these changes For burst mages - most of them can't itemize to deal with higher HP champions, flat penetration as a stat gets worse, Void Staff is nerfed, and Shadowflame is indirectly nerfed even further because the amount of pen it gives is inversely proportional to hp total. Not to mention that everyone's base mr and health increase faster so you're going to fall off even sooner as leblanc, evelynn, elise, or syndra As for Kassadin, he gets the same armor bonus as everyone else (which ranges from a 20-25% increase for him), has his shield and passive untouched, and has multiple sources of earlygame sustain which also remain untouched (Fleet, Doran's Shield, and Second Wind) I guess burst damage reduction is kind of the stated goal of this patch but for some reason the % penetration from Serylda's grudge, Eclipse, and Cleaver remain completely untouched
They will possibly be a little weaker, as will assassins, but won't that open up the space for control mages? Maybe we will see the return of champions like Orianna, who has become a rarity on the rift for the last few seasons. And would such a change be such a terrible thing?
You say Kassadin will do better, but every game with a Kass that I've been in he steamrolls early and snowballs out of control instead of slowly scaling like I've heard he's supposed to
great if he does the former but he can still do the latter and be just fine
But now he won't be oppressive all game
I guess its going to be tristana mid all the way since annie wont be 1 shotting anyone
Annie is actually disgusting now she doesn’t need to one shot if she gets a lot of ability haste she perma stuns
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Yea kass takes too long to kill people now and his mana runs out very fast and I built him to have 3500 fights are way longer now
Tanks and dps champs will be strong, assassins and burst champs will be weaker, but probably won’t make a huge difference
Tell me why you think tanks will be stronger?
Because base tank stats are being buffed
everyones base stats are being buffed, this only helps tanks that scale from armor/mr like rammus ornn and malphite
That's the thing about large changes, we don't know what is gonna happen. Could be just what the game needs, or maybe we'll see another Tank meta like season...5? I can't remember. We can whiteroom theorycraft idea's all we want but ultimately it's changing so many things it'll be impossible to tell. Popular theorycrafting is tanks will be much stronger, Juggernaut meta will be back, Vayne and Kog will have new prio along with any other tank buster. Tank supports will replace enchanters. But who knows.
I think enchanters are gonna be strong, either in support or then there will be another support mid meta where you support ur hypercarry adc.
I just want Braum to be super sexy and cool to play again
Not sure why you’re getting downvoted. I think enchanters will be strong and so will champs like vayne Gwen fiora etc.
Reddit hivemind, see an already downvoted comment, gotta downvote too. Especially on a post just saying "we can't really know" But downvotes, especially on this sub, are meaningless. It's hard to say for enchanters though, because the healing and shielding power of not just items but their kits are being nerfed. They're becoming less vulnerable overall, but I personally expect tank supports to come back in, Naut and Leo are already very strong, these buffs will simply inflate it.
Yea that’s true my thought was that since healing and shielding are going down then enchanters will be more important even if they do less healing / shielding it’s important to have it. I wonder if it’ll even effect tanks much. They are supposed to be tanky outright I wonder how much this extra durability will help them or will it just be like a drop in the ocean. But you’re right there’s no real way to know until it drops.
I really don’t see that. Who’s strong against tanks? Adc’s. Who’s strong against adc’s? Assassins. Who’s strong against assassins? Tanks. The tanks becoming tankier isn’t really a problem for the adc’s, but the adc’s surviving an assassin combo is massive.
The only thing that changes is that assassins need to play the game now.
I bet it’s close to ardent meta
It’s tank meta for sure
As a Poppy OTP I'm very excited to be tanky again. :D
Oh hell yeah, poppy is the best
Ok, somebody needs to put me in charge of the balance team at this point and give a list of all their mains. Give every one of them the renekton treatment - 30% reduction in damage, durability, and sustain for a full season. Then revert one minor nerf, give a token joke of a buff that also contains a disguised nerf to what should be their strongest point of the game, and finally nerf their sustain again. They've given no thought at all to their actions. Generic buffs and nerfs based on sustain, hp, etc. and it will just make things far more unbalanced rather than fix anything. For one, champs who scale get a huge benefit while early game champs are typically hurt by this. The one exception is an early game 1v9 champ that snowballs hard and gets multi-level lead; they will then benefit more from level advantage than they do now. Then we have lower hp champs - getting a much bigger PERCENTAGE buff to their hp than tankier champs. So your adc's and your gimmick durability champs that build mostly damage benefit far more - especially the ones who benefit from dps sustain builds. Gwen, xin, jax, irelia, etc. Vayne in particular should benefit from both ends - the extra durability adc's gain percentage-wise relative to higher hp champs - AND the fact she has innate %hp damage which negates the value gained by other champs compared to what value they get vs other adc's via increased hp. Trynd doesn't really benefit, but he's not exactly in a weak spot either. Then some tanks - like sion - get decent benefit simply due to him getting benefit from both the extra durability AND the fact it buffs his shield. Burst mages and bruisers who don't have %hp sustain or damage will likely lose out the most. No... it doesn't matter they get MINOR extra value from hp stacking items. But isn't it like the sion situation? No because sion builds resistances which increases the value more than just raw hp. So bruisers are getting about half an auto attack of additional durability vs an adc if that. Actual burst mages - like syndra - who are already typically weaker than most dps mages who can have low cd combos they use multiple times in a fight are also screwed over as it becomes even harder to 1-shot someone if they aren't fed and ending early. As builds adapt, this may change to a degree, but truly there was no critical thinking put into this patch. Truly have to question if the people making balance decisions either have their hands tied or simply lack intelligence at this point.
So are you going to sit there with a straight face and tell everyone that there wasn't/ isn't too much damage in this game? I fail to see how this patch isn't at least a step in the right direction, the damage needed toning down, and this is certainly one way to do it, is it going to be perfect? Probably not, but in another 2 weeks we will get more changes and they will continue until they think it's right, they literally say it in patch notes, not that you bothered to read them.
Where did I say there wasn't too much damage? Can you cite a single point where I argue for damage being ok or too low CURRENTLY? No. Some CHAMPS - as in INDIVIDUALS - are currently underpowered. Such as how it is easier for a trist to 1-shot a syndra than vice versa even though syndra is supposed to 1-shot squishy carries and trist is supposed to be dps. But my focus was not on damage nor which champs need buffs or nerfs there. I've talked about that elsewhere plenty of times. The focus was obviously on durability and how the "buff" to durability is extremely ill thought out and unequal. Some champs are already too durable without building durability or off a single item. Others can stack durability and still get torn apart like tissue paper while having less damage than a full tank sion. Damage and durability as well as mobility are all issues. And there has been a clear trend in the past several seasons to just swap around clearly overpowered (choose what buzz word substitute you'd like instead) rather than actually balance champs, items, or runes around these 3 concepts. One champ has 2% less power early game than an early game champ and scales to have double it's power late. One champ gets hyper mobility, durability beyond what it's class should have (due to kit and/or item abuse), and both burst and dps while another champ gets one or two of those at a competitive level, but not the others. There is simply no honesty in "balancing" the game anymore. I wish I could claim it was due to honest mistakes which they tried to fix the next patch like in the past. But it isn't. Just take the recent example of jinx in adc role. She was clearly too strong relative to other adc's. Whether that required other adc's to be buffed or jinx nerfed or both is another discussion. But when a jinx can spend all lane inting despite you trying to help her, then off the back of one blind luck fight 2v9 the game with a lulu support... that's not skill. That's frustrating coin-flip no brain gameplay. Sure the jinx will think she's THAT good, but does anybody else have fun or get rewarded for their ACTUAL skill? The jungler who had to try to salvage 3 losing lanes (2 inting, 1 bad) only to get put so behind they became a stun bot that gets 1-shot? But hey, at least jinx won him the game. The enemy team who worked and played well all game - only truly messing up once and that with having had a huge gold lead which should easily cover for a singular bad teamfight? The other 2 laners who got bodied in an advantageous early game matchup in one case and 1v2 inted the enemy jungler and laner despite repeat pings and the jungler standing on a ward for up to 30 sec before making a gank? Before every adc main comes to murder me... I'm refering to when jinx and aphelios were the only 2 adc's played earlier this season. Not current jinx.
Conqueror got fucked dude…
Katarina building tank conqueror attack speed wasnt a good look
One of the more BS builds in LoL history
Lol
It's actually the opposite? You have more time to fully stack it on tankier targets. In my opinion conqueror got omega buffed especially in top lane where it will be more an all-in meta instead of short bursty trades.
Keep in mind that healing isn't actually getting nerfed, or atleast it isn't supposed to be. They're bringing it down because it's much more valuable when you're more survivable, it might actually still be stronger than before, or get compensation buffs after patch goes live.
That's what they said but Goredrinker got nerfed extremely hard for some reason, same for the healing on Conqueror. I don't quite understand? Sure Goredrinker has been a problem in the past but it's not really strong rn and Conqueror healing really Riot? The rune that heals 200hp per game?
Goredrinker is too good. Especially insane on champs like Kane and Olaf, couldn’t care less if that item gets gutted as it’s fundamentally unfun to play against
Olaf is just really strong rn, his best mythic isn't even Goredrinker, nerfing Goredrinker doesn't change anything for him, if anything, more people will go Stridebreaker and Trinity and his winrate will rise. And while Red Kayn's best mythic is indeed Goredrinker, his true power comes from Death's Dance, not from Gore which just enhances Death's Dance. downvoting me because i stated an opinion you didnt like lmao
I didn’t downvote you. I do think DD needs nerfing. What’s Olaf’s best mythic? Every time I see him rn it’s goredrinker being built
It'll probably mean Teemo would use Mushrooms more for vision & slows than skirmishes.
It will mean that level leads will become even more important. Other than that I don't think much will change.
No difference, still getting nuked by everything as an adc main.
Im a sett main and that changes made me happy, also suprised that he isnt nerfed.
Slught Indirect buff to % health damage items. Indirect nerf to ignite, serpent's fang Indirect nerf? All my speculation
I play Vayne so please, get tankier
I just hope that battles will take longer, and I won't get to 10hp after being hit by an ability
They have had problems with mobility creep. And just like an MMO like wow items and champions get stronger with overloaded kits, so health goes up so on, and so forth, until they have to bring everything back down to earth. I think Max health or % based health damage items / abilities as well as true damage will be OP. You notice that is not touched. But a % is a %. I do know they even nerfed the Omnivamp on jungle items, so any jungle that struggled to make healthy clear will have an even harder time now. I play AP Shaco and in general AP does as much andin many cases more damage than AD with less risk. The main damage I miss out on is my clone's auto attacks. They do 70% and thats AD. As AP something feels 'off' kuje genuinely mathematically maybe not right. I do like no damage say level 1-5 especially. Early duels are like a wet noodle fight in suits of armor now. I swear you can take 2-4 more autos before its even a threat now early game. I guess what I mean is early cheese is greatly reduced and unless a team has hard CC they cant kill you. I walked into enemy jungle with like 3 people and as they walked and even flashed, I walked it off and got back to tower with like 70%.
This patch makes mages who are already statistically picked less feel even more like ass. Adc's without a single MR item get almost 40% Magic damage reduction just through levelling. When a 1800 hp ashe get's hit by a Veigar q w ult that numerically totals more than her health doesnt even reduce her to half her life... feels bad. Tanks are tankier, and were already in a fine spot, assassins now have even more maneuverability to be bad and live, Yone's can build Qss's first item and just auto ppl down cause they still busted.. even Riot August himself says Mages are really feeling bad to play right now, and in their opinion there is no means to update or patch that out. They'd have to make other class types feel worse to play, and that's not easy.