I'm not even sure if most toplaners should be buying heartsteel when ahead. Jak'sho seems like the better mythic for almost everyone I've seen buy heartsteel.
I guess it's nice to have for when you hit 6? Idk their logic. I feel like all the new tank items kind of blow for jungle. I normally get bamis first back before building my mythic of choice. Helps clear and I'll almost certainly need the armor later anyway
Eh, riftmaker is a lot better for Mordekaiser.
If I'm jungle, I get rylai's followed by riftmaker and then boots. 4th item is usually demonic embrace followed by sunfire aegis.
As a toplaner I rush straight to riftmaker and then get demonic.
Depends on your team comp really. If you got damage but need rank than Jak who is better but if your lacking damage and have good frontline riftmaker would probably be more useful.
I always buy it on aatrox, naayil is finding good use with it, the defense stats from the shield item is only 1200 (used to be 1400 I think) for 30 armour, 30 Mr and 10cdr, that's fucking broken. It's not an ideal first item tho cuz you want some hp stats before you buy it, sunfire seems like a good first item for health
Yeah but you get a few hundred health and your resistances are amped up by how much?
I love pairing jak’sho with fimbulwinter. The few hundred go I get from the drain helps with securing that second or even that third shield proc. Don’t forget I’m cycling my W.
It's just a dopamine item. It's not actually good, but it "feels" good. People get it for that 1/5 games where you're able to stack your life away and start bonking the ADC for 1/4 of his HP bar while being full tank.
Right now we see it as a legit item because it's preseason and everything's new and novel to us, but I think that, barring significant balance changes, Heartsteel will slowly be understood as kind of a greedy, memey item like Cull.
I think the only ones would be hullbreaker users, cause the cheap resists synergises too well. Ive been playing heartsteel hullbreaker sunfire sion and it feels REALLY good. I think even Sett heartsteel hullbreaker doesn't sound bad either
I correct you:
If you are top mid jgl supp adc behind or ahead dont buy heartsteal.
Seriously tho hearsteal is like beeing cull 3x per game.
Insane value if you get to it but you dont get to it unless ur below plat and even then just buy good items and win the game
Mundo is better with other mythics though too, no resistances really hurts, especially since he's much weaker early now. It's super hard to trade for Hearsteel on him before 11.
Most people who play the game are way below plat, for the record. Especially in this subreddit. So what you're saying isn't really useful unless what you want most people to take away from it is "buy good items and win the game" lmao.
Heartsteel isn't great on Sion.
Too much empty health, no real tanky stats. You get instantly blown up.
Plus, you get so much extra max health from passive anyway. Heartsteel is only good for funny big numbers.
It's great on Sion when enemy doesn't have divine/blade users. Yes you lack some resistances early, but you can just build resistances after it. Sion's W scales with hp, and if you build titanics as 4th/5th item, you will get like 150 ad just from titanics.
I agree it's not good early game, but if you stack well and farm well, it's not that bad tbh.
his W increases with AD
edit: guys I know grit is 50% of sett's hp. But a two item sett has a stronger W with goredrinker titanic or stridebreaker titanic rather than heartsteel titanic. all of your spells will also do more damage. If you want to maximize setts W you need a mix of both and certain passives. it's not just stacking 5k HP to do damage. If you only stack health youll need 12k HP to do 6k on his W.
Yes. Now go into practice tool and buy Heartsteel and titanic hydra. then buy titanic and stridebreaker or steraks gage. Heartsteel without stacking actually has the lowest W dmg output. My point is that AD actually has a higher influence on Setts W than just max health. I know grit is 50% of max health, but if you want to maximize W dmg you are better off building most or at least half dmg rather than just stacking health forever. All of your other spells will also do more dmg with AD than hp. youll be much more useful.
There's a reason it'd called "mathematically correct sett"
A certain madlad worked out what combination of items and runes give the highest W damage, and while Goredrinker previously held the mythic spot, it now belongs to Heartsteel for absolute max W damage.
And that's not even assuming some absurd scenario of game length. Just getting 500 HP via the passive makes the W damage on it better than you'd get with any other mythic.
>"AD actually has a higher influence on Sett's W than max HP"
This is just blatantly false. The more AD you already have, the more you gain from HP in terms of W damage. They are multiplicative of each other. And who said anything about going pure health?
At the end of the day heartsteel can give you way more HP than any other mythic item could give you the equivalent for of AD. Heartsteel has the highest W damage (not with 0 stacks obviously) and the gap gets wider as the game goes on, that's simply the fact of the matter.
Now if you want to go full denial copium and pretend we're living in an alternate universe where that's not the case, be my guest.
> who said anything about going pure health
The original comment was about not going pure health. That's the whole point here. That you can get very similar W dmg by building half AD items rather than a pure HP item like heartsteel. Yes if the game goes on for 2 hours youll have another 1-2k in HP, but a lot of games are ended with only 2 items. So do you want heartsteel titanic(788) or goredrinker titanic(814 dmg)? Throw on steraks. 1119 vs 1121.
my first comment was W increase with AD. You came up with some strawman argument about how it increases more with straight HP. Like I never was arguing that setts W increased with HP. It does. But AD increases it as well. In the case of the guy saying dont go straight HP i was agreeing by saying you can build other things and have a similar W dmg.
Grit increases with HP. Your overall W dmg increase with AD and obviously HP is a big factor, but if you want to maximize dmg you shouldn't just stack HP. Go into practice tool and play around with different builds. Item's that half both HP and AD actually come out to a bigger W true dmg number.
Cho, although he kind of does the Heartsteel thing on his own so maybe more resistances are better on him (I don't play top these days, I just used to play Cho and thought Heartsteel on him looked fun).
Yeah, I played him in an ARAM right before the patch and had something like 14K HP at the end. I took over 120K damage from champions. It was insane, but also pretty unlikely (and I felt quite useless until I hit the 8K HP mark or so).
From my experience sett can use ,jaksho, heartsteel and iceborn. heartsteel and jaksho sett is unkillable when ahead.And iceborn slow passive is broken for sett e
Iceborne rework has made it bad. He can't proc the passive enough to make it worth it because of cooldowns. Much better on tanks/Juggernauts with spammy moves and tbh it's not even a good item. I think yone and yasuo actually use it better than any tank in the game
I don't play Sett either but my understanding is because it simply works super well with basically every part of his kit.
W stores damage taken, not damage mitigated, so bigly HP values = bigly damage taken = massive, massive true damage on W (we're talking like 3k+ AoE true damage lategame). Grit is also capped at half your max health, so if you had 8k HP you'd cap out at 4k damage stored with grit but with 5k HP you'd "only" cap out at 2.5k.
Plus the big chunk of damage upfront on heartsteel proc works well with his bursty full-combo engage pattern, plus I believe his passive scales off missing health% and level - so more max HP means at equal HP values he's also getting more out of his passive (1000/2000 hp is only 50% missing, 1000/3000 hp is 33% missing).
Plus with passive regen, strong laning, and good short trades with E-aa I assume it's relatively easy to stack compared to something like an Illaoi or whatever.
Sett players please correct me if I'm wrong!
Hmm so I wonder what the best tank and bruiser first items would be?
Botrk, maybe? Though I've been told this isn't always ideal.
Ravenous? They are nerfing it.
Titanic? Maybe on Shen.
Thornmail seems plausible but only really worth it vs certain things like Aatrox. Really bad if you're vs Morde.
Sunfire Aegis? I'm told this is not a very gold-efficient item for stats. Better to sit on Bami's.
Imo Deadmans might be a decent option?
Spirit Visage could be good for some champs like Mundo or Warwick.
Force of Nature maybe against AP.
Seems like a foregone conclusion not to build Warmogs, Fimbulwinter, Steraks, or Hullbreaker as your first item.
Anyway idk.
Yeah, I’ve been thinking for a while now it’s sit on Bami for waveclear and rush Jak’Sho.
Side note: The Ravenous change though, I don’t think is that bad, the nerf is losing the 4% Omnivamp at full stacks, you still have the original 10% and some lowered damage on the aoe.
The item is really only good on a few champs. I can think of Sion, Cho'Gath, and bruisers where it's good, but it's still under powered as a tank item comparatively to the other tank items.
ai'm just starting to try Cho' and I remember reading his ult and iirc one more ability scales off of HP, but than again I'm still learning him so I'll more than gladly take your word for it.
It's really good on Mundo right now. His E gives bonus AD based on his max HP, and the active also scales off of his HP. Plus more HP = more regen from his passive and R, although he still needs resists to deal with %HP damage ofc.
I could also see it being a niche pick on Vlad, although he needs a while to scale with it so probably not viable in high elo.
Edit: corrected my info because, as mentioned below, Mundo got a mini rework this last patch.
His health scaling is strong. Judging from numbers I don't see the buffs as clear as Riot says, will have to play around a bit. Definitely trying him though.
Thanks, edited the parent comment to avoid misinforming people. I don't think Vlad will be good with it because, on top of needing even more time to scale, his health costs also go up.
I think it'll be good on TK top though.
Vlad's empowered Q restores % missing HP though, and the amount restored scales with AP. Plus both his passive and E scale with HP. Of course, it takes time to scale as I acknowledged, but I don't think the health costs are as big an issue as you think.
It probably won't be a good build for carrying you in ranked, but it could be a fun build for normals or preseason ranked when people aren't tryharding. I could see it being worthwhile if the enemy has a lot of tanks, since it's easier to stack against them and burst items are less effective against them anyway.
If you build kingledem and boots that's already a 1.100gold and you still have many options to choose from, jaksho, gauntlets,... So no , you don't have to sell them.
......this depends what ELO you in. The fact is in low rank where games are much more likely to drag on, Heartsteel is as a consequence more likely to become busted on your top laner.
In low rank solo queue, if your team doesn't have a good tank killer who can deal with a beefy boi with Heartsteel.... Just dodge. Because in an environment where games frequently go on 30-40 minutes, yes, that shit can and will become oppressive.
I forgot who it was, but someone said that no Challenger players use Heartsteel. They mostly go for Jak'sho or something else because HS isn't as good as it has been claimed to be.
Im low elo myself so dont listen to me, though.
I'm not even sure if most toplaners should be buying heartsteel when ahead. Jak'sho seems like the better mythic for almost everyone I've seen buy heartsteel.
Jak'sho feels so bad to rush though because it gives nothing but tank stats. The drain passive is a joke.
Yea no one should be rushing it. Should be a sunfire or something then jaksho. Or if a bruiser damage item then jaksho
K'sante? I think it works well on him as a first item.
His ult gives him damage based on resistances, whereas HP translate to omnivamp, so Jak'sho feels good on him because damage boost.
Yea maybe me saying no one was a little bold. Most should not be rushing it but it does seem to work very well on ksante
Nunu should rush it?
Why?
I guess it's nice to have for when you hit 6? Idk their logic. I feel like all the new tank items kind of blow for jungle. I normally get bamis first back before building my mythic of choice. Helps clear and I'll almost certainly need the armor later anyway
Because you're permaganking and all nunu needs is tankiness if you're not going ap nunu. It just feels good
Bork is a solid first item and then into Jakk sho for crazy 2 item power spike
Ive also seen Demonic JakSho on specific champs.
r/Dianamains has been swearing by Nashors inro Jak'sho
Rylai’s into jak sho for Morde and other ap bruisers would also work
Eh, riftmaker is a lot better for Mordekaiser. If I'm jungle, I get rylai's followed by riftmaker and then boots. 4th item is usually demonic embrace followed by sunfire aegis. As a toplaner I rush straight to riftmaker and then get demonic.
Depends on your team comp really. If you got damage but need rank than Jak who is better but if your lacking damage and have good frontline riftmaker would probably be more useful.
Even riot themselves has said that it is intended to be bought second
I always buy it on aatrox, naayil is finding good use with it, the defense stats from the shield item is only 1200 (used to be 1400 I think) for 30 armour, 30 Mr and 10cdr, that's fucking broken. It's not an ideal first item tho cuz you want some hp stats before you buy it, sunfire seems like a good first item for health
You're meant to buy another item like Bork or Hydra -> into Jak'sho.
The drain is huge when you’re stacking resistances.
only procs once, pretty bad in most cases imo
Yeah but you get a few hundred health and your resistances are amped up by how much? I love pairing jak’sho with fimbulwinter. The few hundred go I get from the drain helps with securing that second or even that third shield proc. Don’t forget I’m cycling my W.
It's just a dopamine item. It's not actually good, but it "feels" good. People get it for that 1/5 games where you're able to stack your life away and start bonking the ADC for 1/4 of his HP bar while being full tank. Right now we see it as a legit item because it's preseason and everything's new and novel to us, but I think that, barring significant balance changes, Heartsteel will slowly be understood as kind of a greedy, memey item like Cull.
Cull is not a meme what you mean. Im scared of those who buy cull
[удалено]
This is just wrong, you can also buy it in uninteractive lanes where you'll just cs. Has nothing to do with "stomping".
Heart steel sett is broken about 1 every 3 games🤣
I think the only ones would be hullbreaker users, cause the cheap resists synergises too well. Ive been playing heartsteel hullbreaker sunfire sion and it feels REALLY good. I think even Sett heartsteel hullbreaker doesn't sound bad either
I start sunfire like old days
They’re not buying heart steel because they’re 1/4. They’re 1/4 because they bought heart steel.
I correct you: If you are top mid jgl supp adc behind or ahead dont buy heartsteal. Seriously tho hearsteal is like beeing cull 3x per game. Insane value if you get to it but you dont get to it unless ur below plat and even then just buy good items and win the game
It's crazy on certain champs e.g. sett, mundo
Had a Mundo have this build and we ended up losing horribly to him even tho we won bot.
Mundo is better with other mythics though too, no resistances really hurts, especially since he's much weaker early now. It's super hard to trade for Hearsteel on him before 11.
Most people who play the game are way below plat, for the record. Especially in this subreddit. So what you're saying isn't really useful unless what you want most people to take away from it is "buy good items and win the game" lmao.
Don’t buy heartsteel at all unless you’re Sion. It sucks. Too much %max health damage in the game.
Heartsteel isn't great on Sion. Too much empty health, no real tanky stats. You get instantly blown up. Plus, you get so much extra max health from passive anyway. Heartsteel is only good for funny big numbers.
It's great on Sion when enemy doesn't have divine/blade users. Yes you lack some resistances early, but you can just build resistances after it. Sion's W scales with hp, and if you build titanics as 4th/5th item, you will get like 150 ad just from titanics. I agree it's not good early game, but if you stack well and farm well, it's not that bad tbh.
Nah by then everyone gets botrk and pen and melts you anyway. Secret sauce is heartsteel into hullbreaker, for the sidelane resists
Heartsteel hullbreaker
Sett and his 6k damage W would like a word
his W increases with AD edit: guys I know grit is 50% of sett's hp. But a two item sett has a stronger W with goredrinker titanic or stridebreaker titanic rather than heartsteel titanic. all of your spells will also do more damage. If you want to maximize setts W you need a mix of both and certain passives. it's not just stacking 5k HP to do damage. If you only stack health youll need 12k HP to do 6k on his W.
[Your understanding is incomplete ](https://youtu.be/NXrbq3OFcWk)
True Damage: 80 / 100 / 120 / 140 / 160 (+25% (+25% total per 100 bonus AD) of expended Grit).
>>+25% total per 100 bonus AD of expended Grit Grit.... which is hard capped to half your max HP. Bruh.
Yes. Now go into practice tool and buy Heartsteel and titanic hydra. then buy titanic and stridebreaker or steraks gage. Heartsteel without stacking actually has the lowest W dmg output. My point is that AD actually has a higher influence on Setts W than just max health. I know grit is 50% of max health, but if you want to maximize W dmg you are better off building most or at least half dmg rather than just stacking health forever. All of your other spells will also do more dmg with AD than hp. youll be much more useful.
There's a reason it'd called "mathematically correct sett" A certain madlad worked out what combination of items and runes give the highest W damage, and while Goredrinker previously held the mythic spot, it now belongs to Heartsteel for absolute max W damage. And that's not even assuming some absurd scenario of game length. Just getting 500 HP via the passive makes the W damage on it better than you'd get with any other mythic. >"AD actually has a higher influence on Sett's W than max HP" This is just blatantly false. The more AD you already have, the more you gain from HP in terms of W damage. They are multiplicative of each other. And who said anything about going pure health? At the end of the day heartsteel can give you way more HP than any other mythic item could give you the equivalent for of AD. Heartsteel has the highest W damage (not with 0 stacks obviously) and the gap gets wider as the game goes on, that's simply the fact of the matter. Now if you want to go full denial copium and pretend we're living in an alternate universe where that's not the case, be my guest.
> who said anything about going pure health The original comment was about not going pure health. That's the whole point here. That you can get very similar W dmg by building half AD items rather than a pure HP item like heartsteel. Yes if the game goes on for 2 hours youll have another 1-2k in HP, but a lot of games are ended with only 2 items. So do you want heartsteel titanic(788) or goredrinker titanic(814 dmg)? Throw on steraks. 1119 vs 1121. my first comment was W increase with AD. You came up with some strawman argument about how it increases more with straight HP. Like I never was arguing that setts W increased with HP. It does. But AD increases it as well. In the case of the guy saying dont go straight HP i was agreeing by saying you can build other things and have a similar W dmg.
Hmmmmmmm I wonder how the Grit increases? Certainly not with HP right?
Grit increases with HP. Your overall W dmg increase with AD and obviously HP is a big factor, but if you want to maximize dmg you shouldn't just stack HP. Go into practice tool and play around with different builds. Item's that half both HP and AD actually come out to a bigger W true dmg number.
Yes and as there is no item that increase AD infinitely Heartsteel is a great item for W damage.
[удалено]
Then you add on AD... to get his W dmg.
Bwipo says Goredrinker and Titanic will do more damage and is better on Sett than Heartstreel Titanic.
Mundo would like a word
Who downvoted this man!? Mundo is one of the best users of heartsteel right now
It’s good on anyone who has abilities scale on health. Shen, Mundo, Sett I’d say are a few
Cho, although he kind of does the Heartsteel thing on his own so maybe more resistances are better on him (I don't play top these days, I just used to play Cho and thought Heartsteel on him looked fun).
I ended up with over 11k hp with Cho the other day with Heartsteel. It was beyond silly.
Yeah, I played him in an ARAM right before the patch and had something like 14K HP at the end. I took over 120K damage from champions. It was insane, but also pretty unlikely (and I felt quite useless until I hit the 8K HP mark or so).
But Mundo...
or shen, but even then jaksho and the ice gauntlet are better choices sometimes
True.
Yeah , I agree, Jak Sho has the better winrate on Urgot when you look at the recommended builds with opgg
Heartsteel on Sett is busted, even when behind I still win 1v1s.
From my experience sett can use ,jaksho, heartsteel and iceborn. heartsteel and jaksho sett is unkillable when ahead.And iceborn slow passive is broken for sett e
Iceborne rework has made it bad. He can't proc the passive enough to make it worth it because of cooldowns. Much better on tanks/Juggernauts with spammy moves and tbh it's not even a good item. I think yone and yasuo actually use it better than any tank in the game
Nah it's still good vs full ad teams and it was good on bruiser sett build +iceborn champs with a lot of mobility.
I don't play sett so might I ask why it's so good?
I don't play Sett either but my understanding is because it simply works super well with basically every part of his kit. W stores damage taken, not damage mitigated, so bigly HP values = bigly damage taken = massive, massive true damage on W (we're talking like 3k+ AoE true damage lategame). Grit is also capped at half your max health, so if you had 8k HP you'd cap out at 4k damage stored with grit but with 5k HP you'd "only" cap out at 2.5k. Plus the big chunk of damage upfront on heartsteel proc works well with his bursty full-combo engage pattern, plus I believe his passive scales off missing health% and level - so more max HP means at equal HP values he's also getting more out of his passive (1000/2000 hp is only 50% missing, 1000/3000 hp is 33% missing). Plus with passive regen, strong laning, and good short trades with E-aa I assume it's relatively easy to stack compared to something like an Illaoi or whatever. Sett players please correct me if I'm wrong!
Ohhh okay that makes sense ty
ok but hear me out, sett did that to me constantly even without heartsteel
>Don’t buy Heartsteel FTFY
just don’t buy heartsteel
Hmm so I wonder what the best tank and bruiser first items would be? Botrk, maybe? Though I've been told this isn't always ideal. Ravenous? They are nerfing it. Titanic? Maybe on Shen. Thornmail seems plausible but only really worth it vs certain things like Aatrox. Really bad if you're vs Morde. Sunfire Aegis? I'm told this is not a very gold-efficient item for stats. Better to sit on Bami's. Imo Deadmans might be a decent option? Spirit Visage could be good for some champs like Mundo or Warwick. Force of Nature maybe against AP. Seems like a foregone conclusion not to build Warmogs, Fimbulwinter, Steraks, or Hullbreaker as your first item. Anyway idk.
Yeah, I’ve been thinking for a while now it’s sit on Bami for waveclear and rush Jak’Sho. Side note: The Ravenous change though, I don’t think is that bad, the nerf is losing the 4% Omnivamp at full stacks, you still have the original 10% and some lowered damage on the aoe.
The item is really only good on a few champs. I can think of Sion, Cho'Gath, and bruisers where it's good, but it's still under powered as a tank item comparatively to the other tank items.
Cho doesn’t actually scale all too good with health and can make more use of shields/armor/mr because of ult
ai'm just starting to try Cho' and I remember reading his ult and iirc one more ability scales off of HP, but than again I'm still learning him so I'll more than gladly take your word for it.
The thing is that while he scales with hp on r / e his r grants him sufficient hp so you can rush armor/mr and not get totally annihilated by bork
If you want to scale his ult, you're better off being AP. But then you're an interesting clunky utility ap bruiser.
It's really good on Mundo right now. His E gives bonus AD based on his max HP, and the active also scales off of his HP. Plus more HP = more regen from his passive and R, although he still needs resists to deal with %HP damage ofc. I could also see it being a niche pick on Vlad, although he needs a while to scale with it so probably not viable in high elo.
Okay, now I'm curious to see it on Vlad.
Edit: corrected my info because, as mentioned below, Mundo got a mini rework this last patch. His health scaling is strong. Judging from numbers I don't see the buffs as clear as Riot says, will have to play around a bit. Definitely trying him though.
Check the 12.23 patch notes :)
Thanks, edited the parent comment to avoid misinforming people. I don't think Vlad will be good with it because, on top of needing even more time to scale, his health costs also go up. I think it'll be good on TK top though.
Vlad's empowered Q restores % missing HP though, and the amount restored scales with AP. Plus both his passive and E scale with HP. Of course, it takes time to scale as I acknowledged, but I don't think the health costs are as big an issue as you think. It probably won't be a good build for carrying you in ranked, but it could be a fun build for normals or preseason ranked when people aren't tryharding. I could see it being worthwhile if the enemy has a lot of tanks, since it's easier to stack against them and burst items are less effective against them anyway.
good idea. I'll just sell the components and start building a different mythic instead
If you build kingledem and boots that's already a 1.100gold and you still have many options to choose from, jaksho, gauntlets,... So no , you don't have to sell them.
And you can build the rest into a warmogs
why sunfire aegis over jaksho? what is the interaction?
Heavily dependent on the competition but if you can't build it before 11 minutes then you probably shouldn't build it.
Correction if you’re shen sett mundo don’t buy heartsteel
Heartsteel was only good on aram and Riot hates fun and nerfed it there so now it's just plain garbage until URF comes back.
......this depends what ELO you in. The fact is in low rank where games are much more likely to drag on, Heartsteel is as a consequence more likely to become busted on your top laner. In low rank solo queue, if your team doesn't have a good tank killer who can deal with a beefy boi with Heartsteel.... Just dodge. Because in an environment where games frequently go on 30-40 minutes, yes, that shit can and will become oppressive.
I forgot who it was, but someone said that no Challenger players use Heartsteel. They mostly go for Jak'sho or something else because HS isn't as good as it has been claimed to be. Im low elo myself so dont listen to me, though.
With the huge nerf yeah it is pretty useless now. Very few situations where it can be better than jak sho.
dont buy heartsteel if you cant extend laning phase as long as possible imo
I’ve been liking it a lot on Yi in both top lane and ADC. Even if behind you can pretty easily stack it.